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What Does the Bible Say About PURGATORY? · Relish: a Christian podcast

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  You're listening to Thursday Mornings with Alex and Don. Team Ad.
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  Don is a pastor with 40 years experience.
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  And Alex is just as curious as you are. We look at the most important and interesting
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  questions about the Bible and Christian faith. So let's talk about it.
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  Pastor Don. Good morning, Alex. How are you doing? Doing as good as I can do.
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  Good. well everyone if you're listening to this on thursday which we hope we
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  are which we hope you are some of
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  you can listen on wednesday but if it's thursday it's a very special day,
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  really yeah some i don't know how long ago is
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  that your birthday oh it is yes thursday is my birthday yes happy birthday thank
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  you i was looking around for some birthday hats and some party whistlers but
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  okay no no sparks or okay no no like that and that's all right you know you
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  You haven't met this many birthdays.
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  You don't need quite the same fanfare. Right.
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  Okay. I understand that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay.
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  Well, how old are you turning? Can I ask?
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  67. Hey. All right. Yes. What a blessing.
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  Well, we're glad that you've been around. What's the blessing compared to the
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  other options not making it that long? Yeah.
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  I agree. All right, everyone. Well, thanks for joining us again for another episode.
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  We're glad you're here. hopefully you've told a friend or two and and i've seen
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  a lot of people write in some questions and i have been getting them just so
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  you know we are still working on the hillcrest questions i'll show you there
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  aren't too many left but there are still from there there's a bunch of them this yeah that's good,
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  But I have a question from someone and they're going to get to cut the line
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  because they sent me a message directly and they're related.
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  So this would be my wife's grandfather.
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  They call him Pa. Hey, Pa.
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  His wife, they call him Mama and Pa. And that family structure has been really, really great.
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  It's interesting to see how giant the get togethers are and still remain and
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  just the love that they have.
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  And somebody listens to this and that. Wow, that's cool. Yeah.
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  His name is Dale, but he asks, what does the Bible say about purgatory?
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  It doesn't. It doesn't. Okay. Now, they've been Catholics for many,
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  many years, so he was interested in this topic.
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  Yeah. And I think part of the way it emerged in the Catholic faith is the fact
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  that what happens between the bodily resurrection that's talked about in 1 Corinthians 15 and death.
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  And so, what's the in-between?
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  And we really don't have a lot of biblical background other than the fact that in Ephesians 4,
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  1 through 10, it talks about Jesus taking these captives from below to above.
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  And then it talks about it in 1 Peter 3, the last part, verses, what is it, 18?
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  And then again, the first part of chapter 4. We talked a little bit about those
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  verses in the last episode.
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  Jesus, it looks to me that Peter and Paul both believe that Jesus had the opportunity
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  to preach the gospel to those who had passed away.
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  So that's a reference to something. I mean, these souls were somewhere in that period of time.
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  That would probably be the closest biblical references to what would be called purgatory.
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  And that seems to be alluded to in those scriptures. Okay. Now, what happens?
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  I haven't been there myself yet. I could send a report once I get there and
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  find out what's going on.
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  Most of us as Christians believe that once we die, we're in the presence of
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  Christ. And we take that from Paul.
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  To be alive is to gain you, but to fall asleep and go to Jesus, that's gain.
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  Yeah that's second corinthians chapter five so
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  yeah purgatory isn't
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  is alluded to i mean a spot in between is alluded to but most of us believe
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  that when we we leave the body and we take that from revelation okay and and
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  so yeah that's it's it's a hard one it's a hard one because,
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  you know, the Protestants have separated from the Catholic Church on that issue.
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  And it's an interesting one, I think. I think personally because,
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  like, you know, sin separates us from God. We know that.
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  No way God is letting something as evil as sin get into heaven. Right. Right.
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  So there's got to be some way to get rid of it. Like, what happens if you didn't
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  ask for forgiveness for a certain sin and then you die?
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  You know? And then it seems like there has to be some sort of action there.
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  If sin is this horrible, horrible thing, detestable to God, we're not letting
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  detestable things, or God's not letting detestable things get into somewhere special.
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  And we have that several times in the Bible.
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  So there has to be an action of some kind. Right. I think the action is referred
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  to as a cleansing fire, right?
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  Right. Well, the final consummation me.
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  Oh, yeah. there's different fires there's different fires
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  yeah for this reason the gospel was preached even
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  to those who are now dead so that they might be judged according to men in regard
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  to the body which means that would be pre-death okay but live according to god
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  in regard to the spirit i i think that's that's making it a little bit more
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  fuzzy yeah it is then then we really want to,
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  because in second corinthians chapter five paul
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  says for we must all appear before the
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  judgments our goal is to please him whether we're at home
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  in the body or away from it for we must all appear before the judgment seat
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  of christ that each one may receive what is due him for the things done in the
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  body which that means living good or bad and so paul's making the case that well you better
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  take care of it while you're living and breathing because after
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  that you don't have quite the same options and you don't have the same options
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  right and it's mentioned before in in scripture too where it says you know no
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  one knows the time of their death right and don't don't wait for another day
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  to take care of this no not at all and and you also lose all the positive.
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  That can come in your life because Christ is in you. Right. And that's where I see it. Yeah.
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  Don't wait because once you see the goodness of God, you're going to want to be there anyways.
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  Right. And not only that, but God's got a plan for you.
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  So there's what he wants. He wants to be able to use you for this very good plan. Yeah.
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  Yeah. I know sin is enticing. We want to stay in it as long as right.
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  Nah. Nah, but until we can make it understandable to people that the life in
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  Christ is really good stuff, it's not really a drudge, it's not going to be very attractive.
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  Right. And so we as Christians need to be showing the attributes of a redeemed life more often, daily.
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  I was looking up some possible rebuttals on catholicanswers.com.
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  I believe it's catholicanswers.org. That makes sense.
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  And they said that 1 Corinthians 3,
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  verses 11 through 15 displays that there has to be a very clear judgment that
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  your works will be tested after death. Hmm.
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  I was curious what your take, we could probably read it if you got it.
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  It's not even highlighted. It's not even highlighted. Where are you headed, bud? 11 through 15.
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  For no one can lay any foundation. Really? They're using that for that?
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  Isn't that interesting? No other foundation than the one already laid,
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  which is in Jesus Christ.
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  If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones,
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  wood, hay, or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light.
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  It will be revealed with fire the fire
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  that will test the quality of each man's work and that's
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  what you're talking about they're redeeming if what he
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  has built survives he will
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  receive his reward if it's burned up he will
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  suffer loss he himself will be saved but only as one escaping through the flames
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  don't you know that you're the temple of the lord just through 15 what's interesting
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  is i don't usually see this passage as one that would talk about that But more one that challenges us,
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  and mainly because this whole conversation starts by,
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  okay, well, you're going to
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  follow Apollos, or you're going to follow Paul, or you've got to follow.
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  And Paul is making the case, you need to follow Christ. Right.
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  And then use your life to build on that foundation of Jesus Christ with good things.
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  Right. And we all know that gold and silver are purified by fire.
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  And all the contaminants are taken away with fire.
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  Stones, they endure fire. It doesn't make much difference to them.
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  They might break down, but they might not. Wood, hay, and straw,
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  we know, are consumed by fire.
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  And so, by becoming a Christian, what are we building by our life?
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  Life is it's precious stuff or is
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  it stuff that will basically go away with the
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  fire right yeah that that's how
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  i see it as well and so i'm not sure how
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  they get that oh i think it speaks to just the the the refining fire the fire
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  that you know is going to purify because that's that's the whole idea of this
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  purgatory is a period in which it can further purify you if you were not ready to enter heaven.
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  Oh, okay. If you have unresolved conflict or unresolved sin.
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  You could take care of it in purgatory. Right. Yeah. And this fire is going
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  to test, is going to test those works of yours. Were they works of hay and wood?
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  They're going to be consumed. Is your life going to need a little bit more purification
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  before it can be. Okay. So golden in heaven.
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  This would be interpreting to add an extra fire. Would it?
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  Because, I mean, Revelation, there's a consuming fire. in Revelation and I don't know that.
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  I would add another flame. Right,
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  right. Yeah, there's a refining fire and there's a all-consuming fire.
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  Okay. So it talks, there's different, let's see.
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  Different blazes, huh? Right. So let's check out Matthew chapter 3,
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  because it says that Matthew chapter 3 verse 11 is the one kind of fire and verse 12 is the other.
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  So let's see if that's. 3.11 would be, I baptize you with water for repentance,
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  but after me will come one who will be more powerful than I,
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  and this is John speaking, whose sandals I am not fit to carry.
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  He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
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  So then 12 is the other kind. his winnowing fork
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  is in his hands he will clear the threshing
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  threshing floor gathering his wheat into
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  the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable
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  fire that's judgment fire right yeah and so he's saying the holy spirit fire
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  yeah that's the refining fire and then the other one is the all-consuming fire
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  okay so there's the two different kinds of fire and i don't know if if the original
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  text that word is different that'd be kind of interesting to know Now,
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  do you want me to take time to pull it up?
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  Sure. Yeah, that'd be fine. Because this whole idea of purgatory is one of those
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  things where it's like, oh, you know, that's very logical in a way that's like,
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  there has to be something that happens there.
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  We can see something, but is it how we are defining it?
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  You know, is it something like the Trinity, where, you know,
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  you try to explain the Trinity to somebody, they're like, the Bible doesn't say that.
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  No, you're correct. but we can take from the Bible and make sense of it.
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  And this is the way that we're going to explain it.
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  So where did Jesus go during those three days? Was that purgatory?
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  I mean, you wouldn't think that Jesus would need the same. We wouldn't call
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  that the same as what a human would.
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  True. But we also need to understand that these are a mixture of Greek,
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  Aramaic and Hebrew understandings of what happens after death.
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  Because in the old Testament, we have show and it would be, sort of a intermediary
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  kind of, it would be the same understanding as, what do they call it in the Greek?
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  The place of the dead. In other words, it's not the final judgment,
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  but it's where the dead go. Not Hades.
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  Hades. Hades. Hades. Yes. Thank you. And so that's a Greek understanding of
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  this place where the dead live.
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  I see. Dead live? Yeah. Really? Okay. Yeah.
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  And so those are Old Testament understandings with a Greek cultural twist.
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  The Hades piece would It would be Greek cultural.
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  And so those are already in the mix, even before Matthew 3 comes on the scene,
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  or even before Paul writes in Ephesians 4.
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  While we don't have a change of the noun fire.
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  And you're looking up the original text. Yes, I'm looking up in the Greek. Fire in Matthew 3.
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  11 and 12. fire is the
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  same word in both passages so the word
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  is the same so the word is the same but they're they're speaking of
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  it in a different way and i feel like that those two
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  verses make it very clear that there are two different kinds yeah yeah
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  yeah mm-hmm so there
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  can be a cleansing fire i i could see you could
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  read a cleansing fire into that i mean that
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  would also match match first corinthians chapter 3
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  11 in that
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  period okay what we just read yeah i we
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  still as christians tend to believe that we're
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  going to be right in the bosom of jesus when we're when we die yeah yeah we
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  don't think that there needs to be a another additional step well i have this
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  sense that i don't want to add anything beyond what i reasonably see if i've
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  got to go into that kind of parsing to get two different fires,
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  then that's pretty complicated. Right.
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  I don't want to make something that Christ hasn't blatantly said. Right.
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  And if scripture hasn't blatantly laid it out there, I don't want to start making
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  my theology by parsing pieces.
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  Right. A little bit of this purgatory sounds like we're saying,
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  you know, when you die, you're You're going to get to go and there's going to
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  be Jesus, something, Holy Spirit
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  being like, you know, we think maybe you got this a little bit wrong.
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  Would you like to revise your stance on this? And then you get to be like,
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  oh, yes, I would like to revise it to the correct way.
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  And I am very sorry for those past sins. And I'm like, okay,
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  perfect. You pass. Come on in.
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  No, it's asking us to know before then. Right. And that would go back to Hebrews chapter nine.
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  Just as man is destined to die once, and we all know we've got one time,
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  and after that to face judgment.
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  So Christ sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people,
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  and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to
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  those who are waiting for him.
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  We all die once. There's not more than once. And so even after that judgment,
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  we're not going to die again.
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  And so it sort of requires us to get our life together before.
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  I guess I'm not going to bank on purgatory.
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  I'm going to take care of things ahead of time. Yeah. I don't know why we would
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  have getting our life together. You should get your life together before you die.
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  God's going to give you not only second chances, but many chances with forgiveness, with Jesus.
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  That's the idea. Yeah, well, and we see that in John 3.17.
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  It wasn't the mission of Christ to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
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  So, you know, 3.16, we all remember, for God so loved the world that he gave
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  his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
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  But 17, we often forget, it wasn't his intention to condemn the world,
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  but to save the world through him.
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  And so let's make sure we remember 17 as we recite 16 because it's equally important. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
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  Okay. So biblical context, you know, is it loose enough that you could say,
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  eh, maybe there is, or is it?
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  I'll let my Catholic brothers believe what they believe. Okay.
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  I happen to listen to a Catholic radio station that's new in the Kelowna area
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  yesterday in my shop because it was the only radio station my shop would,
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  radio would bring in yesterday.
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  Okay. And it was interesting to hear some of those discussions,
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  and I thought, well, hmm, I'm going to have to sharpen myself on that.
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  So it's interesting to get this question today after I was thinking,
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  I better get up on my theology, but Catholic approach to Scripture.
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  I agree. Yeah, that's an interesting way to look at everything, too. Yeah, I know.
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  I listened to a little bit of it as well, and there are a lot of references
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  to Maccabees and some other things that I just generally always interpreted
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  a completely different way.
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  And it's very interesting, I think. Okay. Well, it's definitely worth discussion.
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  Okay. Yeah. And we're already at 19 minutes. Oh.
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  So we covered one question on Don's birthday episode, but I think that's...
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  Well, Papa, thank you for the question, Papa. Yeah. All right.
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  Will you pray us out? I can do that. All right.
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  Heavenly Father, we thank you for the privilege you give us to be a part of
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  other people's lives through these podcasts.
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  Heavenly Father, we pray that someone heard what they needed to hear today to
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  be drawn ever closer to you, Lord.
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  And if a new question arises, we hope they have the ability to send it back in to us.
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  Most of all, Lord, bless the individuals listening today. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.
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  Yeah, everyone, thanks for listening. Bless you, and we'll see y'all next week. Lord willing. Bye.
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  Thanks again for joining us for this week's episode. We are both having a ton
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  of fun making these videos and episodes.
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  And if you're having fun too, please tell a friend about this and help us to grow this mission.
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  Thank you and God bless.