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Jane Pike · Relatively Stable

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Relatively Stable.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad that you're with me.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Today, I'm talking to Jane Pike.
• 0:17
  Many of you already know Jane from her groundbreaking work with
• 0:20
  horses and humans.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: But today, we're given a glimpse of Jane Pike, the creator.
• 0:27
  I'm thrilled that she's joining me for a conversation about
• 0:30
  what it means to honor
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  SPEAKER_01: your creative drives.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Jane is a writer,
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  SPEAKER_01: an artist,
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  SPEAKER_01: a creative mentor,
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  SPEAKER_01: and a horse person from the South Island of New Zealand.
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  SPEAKER_01: In the horse world, her work focuses on practices and understandings
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: that increase vitality for both horses and humans,
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  SPEAKER_01: incorporating nervous system awareness to both mindset and movement.
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  The method she teaches explores physical and emotional patterns
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  at their most
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  SPEAKER_01: foundational level,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: the brain and the nervous system,
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  SPEAKER_01: with the aim of creating adaptability and responsiveness.
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  Jane has featured and written for various magazines around the
• 1:13
  world and is a
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  SPEAKER_01: sought-after international clinician and trainer through her business,
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Confident Rider.
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  SPEAKER_01: As a writer and artist and creative mentor,
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  her passion is helping people develop sustainable creative
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  practices that nourish
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  SPEAKER_01: and infuse art into daily life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And beyond that,
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: find ways to use their creative voice to inspire,
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  SPEAKER_01: elevate and protect our wild lands,
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  SPEAKER_01: our wild creatures and our wild hearts.
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  She's interested in exploring how artistic practice can deepen
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  our relationship
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  SPEAKER_01: with place,
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  SPEAKER_01: as well as our sense of belonging to and with each other.
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  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to share our conversation with you.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get started.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: I am so excited to have you with me today, Jane.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Indulgent pleasure.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: I fangirl stalked you before I ever had a chance to meet you in person.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: You are, you're the real deal.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's only a few people I've stalked in my life.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't stalk many people.
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  SPEAKER_01: There was something about you that just, I loved your work.
• 2:27
  I loved what you were putting out into the world and what I was
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  seeing on the internet.
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  SPEAKER_01: I met you three horses, but today we aren't talking about horses.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's talking about horses.
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  SPEAKER_01: I know.
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  SPEAKER_01: So this is very different for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very different for you.
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  And we've talked about getting together and talking about
• 2:53
  creativity for a very long time.
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  SPEAKER_01: Today is about creativity because wherever you and I are in the world,
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: we kind of find ourselves like,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: and it's,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're in the Southern hemisphere.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in the Northern hemisphere.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm dark headed with lots of hair.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: You are blonde with lots of hair.
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  And we have had so many parallel paths and so many parallel
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  tracks and breaking out
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  SPEAKER_01: in owning our creativity.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's been just a joy to walk beside you with this.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when did you realize that your creativity was taking a different,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: a different level of importance in your life?
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  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, that's such a great question.
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  embarrassingly recently I would say if I reflect back I've
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  always been creative in
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  the sense that we would typically understand it but as far as
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  having it lead and
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  SPEAKER_00: stepping into a place where I'm really leading my life with art I
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  SPEAKER_00: In the last couple of years.
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  And that's been an evolution to get to that point of lots of
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  shedding and...
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  allowing things to fall away around how I'm supposed to be in
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  the world or what I
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  should be doing or what I need to be doing and the endless
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  statement we can tell
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  ourselves of I am so busy and I don't have time and the stories
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  we fabricate that
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  SPEAKER_00: we get knotted within,
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  SPEAKER_00: they've all started to shift in a really dramatic way.
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  SPEAKER_00: And like most good stories, we can see things more clearly in reverse.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like all things in my life,
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  SPEAKER_00: at least,
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  SPEAKER_00: which have created the really,
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  SPEAKER_00: really good things and in the same vein,
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  SPEAKER_00: some of the really challenging things.
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  It feels like when something rises to the surface,
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  I don't have any choice but to follow it.
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  So it's not a state of decision or it's more of a just I have to,
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  okay,
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  here we go.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm along for the ride.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's do this now.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've lost all free will in this experience.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in a minute,
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  I'm going to ask you to just talk a little bit about the things
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  that you've been
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  creating so that we can get a bigger picture of that for people
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  who haven't been
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  following your work as a creative separate from your work as a horsewoman.
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  Have you found any parallels in the work that you have amassed
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  so beautifully of
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  SPEAKER_01: movement and nervous system understanding and joyride?
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  Did you find the parallels of when you were coming into this
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  surge of creativity of
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  SPEAKER_01: tools that you hadn't been using on yourself?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I think it's all really inextricably linked.
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  I don't think or I know I wouldn't be where I am and giving
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  myself the permission that I have to
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  without having done such a deep dive into nervous system based
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  work because the
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  truth of the matter is the sad truth of the matter is that if
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  you are perpetually
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  in a state of fight flight that is holding hands with
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  exhaustion and tiredness the
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  last thing you're thinking about is creating the last thing
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  you're thinking about
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  SPEAKER_00: is
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  SPEAKER_00: following your curiosities.
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  You're really just figuring out how to put one foot in front of
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  the other and get
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  SPEAKER_00: through that day.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so for me,
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  it's been a lot of reconciliation of my anxieties and my
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  concerns and the needs of
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  SPEAKER_00: my animal body that have ricocheted with me since childhood.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, no one's fault, but just the reality of how we
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  SPEAKER_00: sometimes enter into the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so my very firm belief is that we are all incredibly intuitive,
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  SPEAKER_00: sensing,
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  SPEAKER_00: feeling beings that are
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  also inherently creative like this is our natural state of
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  being and to be in a to
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  live in a body that is you know run by a balanced brain if you
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  want to think of it
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  like that if we kind of reduce ourselves to that then we are
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  creatures that live
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  with the conscious brain in service of the unconscious you know
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  the thinking brain
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  SPEAKER_00: in service of the mysterium the
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  awareness that we have of the tangible being inextricably
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  linked to the magical.
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  And that is what makes life so joyous and so interesting and so
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  curious and wonder-filled.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that is who we are.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's not so much about you become creative,
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  it's that you return to it when you find a balanced state of
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  being that is
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  SPEAKER_00: supportive of all different ways of being in the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: And for me, that's what the
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  nervous system work that I've been fortunate enough to come
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  across created,
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  SPEAKER_00: it was like the door to Narnia.
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  It's like stepping through the wardrobe and,
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  you know,
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  it's not healing trauma.
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  SPEAKER_00: It can be, it's not getting over something.
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  SPEAKER_00: It can be, but that's just the beginning.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not the end.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then you're like,
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  SPEAKER_00: right,
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  what does it mean to live a life that's interest-led and that
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  is vital and that is magical?
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  SPEAKER_00: And these are normal everyday states of being.
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  SPEAKER_00: But for some of us, it takes a little while to get there because the
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  the culture and the society that we're a part of is not
• 8:51
  conducive and or supporting
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  SPEAKER_00: of creative living.
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  And so it becomes subversive to live that way and you need to
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  find community and
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  understandings that help you reconcile what is perceived to be
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  abnormal and
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  SPEAKER_00: illogical into very normal and very logical ways of being.
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  SPEAKER_01: In that way,
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  as you were awakening into this thought of maybe I'm going to
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  follow my creative
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  SPEAKER_01: trail more than I have up to this point in my life,
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  SPEAKER_01: how did that awakening look?
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  SPEAKER_01: What did you experience?
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  SPEAKER_00: There was a really defining moment,
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  SPEAKER_00: interestingly enough,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it was at a retreat that I was teaching.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'd always...
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  dipped into this side of my nature without calling it
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  creativity and I don't know
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  why I think it's just because like you mentioned I've built a
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  career and a life in
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  a very specific area with a very specific interest and when my
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  interest started to
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  SPEAKER_00: deviate from
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  SPEAKER_00: central place.
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  I had to find ways of bringing people with me that didn't scare
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  them away.
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  SPEAKER_00: And as adults,
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  it's a real curiosity to me how when you mention creativity
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  from the perspective of
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  SPEAKER_00: art making or mark making or writing,
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  SPEAKER_00: just how
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  decisive and defined people are as to whether they are that or
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  they aren't that.
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  Like,
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  oh,
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  I'm not creative or I am creative or I can't write or I can write.
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  It's very polarizing and there's very little middle ground that
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  people traverse.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was kind of aware of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But interestingly,
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  SPEAKER_00: on this particular retreat,
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  SPEAKER_00: we were doing some free writing and what came up for me was a poem that
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  SPEAKER_00: And the prompt for that was around the stories we arrive with.
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  SPEAKER_00: So what stories were already in the clay of your bones?
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  What was in the animus of your body as you came into the world
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  that you believe you
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  SPEAKER_00: carry with you now?
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  And if you were to tap into that on whatever level is available
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  to you in whatever way you can –
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  suspending judgment and putting to us putting to the side any
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  critical voices that
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  may arise in your head what comes up because something does
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  come up and i wrote a
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  SPEAKER_00: poem in literally a matter of 10 minutes which is reflectively miraculous
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  SPEAKER_00: When I look at some of the labour that goes into my writing now,
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  SPEAKER_00: but at the time it really did pour out.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was really well received.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this isn't about creativity needing external validation by any sense,
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  SPEAKER_00: but what that moment flicked over for me was,
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  SPEAKER_00: oh,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is something I used to do a lot of.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like this is something I was always doing.
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  And then my writing,
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  which for me was the original artistic form and love,
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  that I involve myself in had been channeled into something more
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  organized and more
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  publicly acceptable and more supportive of a normal quote
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  unquote line of work.
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  So my work in the horse world and the nervous system world and
• 12:09
  the movement world
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  SPEAKER_00: sprang out of writing.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: It sprang out of a blog.
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  SPEAKER_00: It sprang out of sharing information online.
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  And then it became more and more instructional and less and
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  less creative as that built up.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I invested in that for good reason.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I loved it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't that that was a hardship, but along the way, what fell was the
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  SPEAKER_00: The wild part of me that just wrote for the hell of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  the wild part of me that was expressing so many other things
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  other than this very
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  SPEAKER_00: specific conversation that I was having online.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I've dallied there.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's easy for,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially when so much of your work is revolving around writing,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's so easy for that to happen.
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  That you don't think like you're putting so much time and
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  energy into that,
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  SPEAKER_01: that you are,
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  SPEAKER_01: you feel like you're producing,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it is something very different in that space of creativity.
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  SPEAKER_00: And for me,
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  SPEAKER_00: anyway,
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  SPEAKER_00: inherently less vulnerable because when I'm writing around a topic,
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  I'm expressing either an opinion or I'm sharing information or
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  it's instructional
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  SPEAKER_00: in some way.
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  And my creative writing is like my heart and liver and kidneys
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  on a platter,
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:23
  like it's a completely different bodily experience that goes
• 13:28
  into it and energy.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it feels like...
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  I don't know why I'm saying this out loud,
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  but it feels like a younger version of me.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like when I'm putting it out there,
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  SPEAKER_00: like the little Jane is like out there,
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  SPEAKER_00: like exposed,
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I guess the sort of like unfiltered version of yourself.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like walking around naked.
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  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like if someone has opinions or...
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: thoughts about what I write on Confident Writer,
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  SPEAKER_00: for instance,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
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  that's a conversation around physiology or around
• 14:01
  understandings of how a body works.
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  And there's references you draw on to back that up,
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  but this is just my heart.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a different kettle of fish altogether.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a different fear of judgment than you have in your...
• 14:23
  I don't even want to call it technical writing,
• 14:25
  but is there a sort of fear of judgment?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes and no.
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  SPEAKER_00: I would say that the work that I have been doing for over 10 years,
• 14:36
  almost 15 years up to this point has been the training ground
• 14:39
  for me to have the
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: courage to do what I'm moving into.
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  I have excellent people-pleasing skills and I have excellent
• 14:49
  and very strong threads of
• 14:51
  I don't want people to be upset with me or I don't want to
• 14:54
  upset you skills.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm very good at that.
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  And so when I first started Confident Rider and the exposure
• 15:03
  that that started to
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: get online means that you're,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  you open yourself up to people that don't necessarily have
• 15:10
  kindness as their
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  SPEAKER_00: primary intention.
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  What used to happen is that I would automatically assume that I
• 15:18
  was in the wrong as
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  SPEAKER_00: a first thought if someone...
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  SPEAKER_00: Opposed me online,
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  SPEAKER_00: not in terms of what I would offer them back,
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  SPEAKER_00: but my first intuitive,
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  SPEAKER_00: energetic response was,
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  SPEAKER_00: what have I done?
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  SPEAKER_00: I need to like fix that or I need to remove that.
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  And I had to sit with the uncomfortability of that and remove
• 15:37
  my behavioral patterning,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  the condition patterning from the objective experience of what
• 15:44
  was going on.
• 15:45
  and learn to meet that from a completely different place which
• 15:49
  meant that over the
• 15:50
  course of that 10 to 15 years I've really developed different
• 15:55
  ways of conducting
• 15:56
  myself and different ways of understanding feedback and learn
• 16:01
  to yeah just mature
• 16:03
  that part of myself and so when I step into creative work and
• 16:07
  sharing creative work
• 16:09
  It is terrifying,
• 16:11
  but my biggest commitment is to something beyond that terror.
• 16:16
  My biggest commitment is to really uplifting and protecting the
• 16:20
  wild world,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is where the bulk of my writing inspiration stems from.
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  That for me is a far bigger thing that is important to me than
• 16:30
  someone just not
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: enjoying my words.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And also beyond that,
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  I'm really dedicated to the creative process and I have to keep
• 16:38
  reminding myself of that.
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  I'm dedicated to the process of creating and I create to the
• 16:43
  best of my ability.
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  SPEAKER_00: I create beauty to the best of my ability
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I get that right.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I get that wrong, whatever that means.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I send it out into the world and then I move on.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because if I get too fixed, I stop myself from doing the next thing.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And to me,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I have to come back to that intention of what is important,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: which is following what I love and showing up for that.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I won't let someone stop me doing that, basically.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: When did you first go public?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: with this new way of looking at creativity?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I was doing it behind the scenes for a long time.
• 17:24
  And I think that also how and where it coincided for me was in
• 17:29
  a time of my life
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: that was just really difficult.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was going through a lot of really bumpy periods.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so
• 17:36
  It really,
• 17:36
  truly did feel like creativity saved my life on a number of levels.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I discovered Substack as a writing platform,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: I thought,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know what,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: maybe a really good way of creating positive pressure for myself to
• 17:53
  to create and to produce and to show things to the world would
• 17:58
  be to create a Substack page.
• 18:00
  And so it's been going for maybe like 15 months now,
• 18:03
  maybe just over a year.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think I started a little bit before because I was like,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have to get ahead of myself,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: which didn't happen as far as like what I'm putting out.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe like somewhere 18 months ago, something like that.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, in the grand scheme of things, relatively...
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a tough platform.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like you,
• 18:19
  you have to marinate there for a while and just kind of watch
• 18:22
  the coming and going
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: to be able to figure out where to enter from.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 18:26
  And also there's a very fine line between inspiration and
• 18:31
  overwhelm or inspiration and,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:35
  reading the extent of offerings that are on there and not
• 18:41
  feeling like your voice
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: is somehow...
• 18:44
  less than like allowing yourself to be in that conversation and
• 18:48
  stay true to
• 18:49
  yourself and just be a part of it and gather what you need and
• 18:52
  then leave what you
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: don't basically.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's tough.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think that on regular social media platforms,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: we're in our bubbles and something like Substack,
• 19:04
  there's this collection of truly some of the best writers that
• 19:08
  are out there who
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: are producing work and producing a newsletter and
• 19:12
  the people you like you,
• 19:14
  it's so easy to connect with your inspirations there.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like had to take a step back and be like,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to stay in the bubble of my newsletter for just a bit.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll venture out occasionally,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: but I can't,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can't scroll through it like I would on a normal social media.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:33
  And it's humbling,
• 19:34
  you know,
• 19:35
  in lots of ways,
• 19:36
  like you and I have both developed a degree of
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: success.
• 19:42
  I don't really love that word,
• 19:43
  but we're solid where we are in terms of what we've created.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And there's an element of starting over.
• 19:51
  There's an element of newness and beginningness and here we go
• 19:55
  again-ness to it.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting to step into that place where
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: you're out of your niche,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: you're out of your area where there's,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: to an extent people know you,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: not everyone,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not assuming that at all,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: but you know,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: like there's a degree of comfort to that.
• 20:12
  And then to be neutral and unknown is actually incredibly
• 20:17
  liberating and wonderful,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: but that also has its own challenges.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's that beautiful benefit of the beginner mindset.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm fresh here.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to just do this because I've done it in the past.
• 20:31
  And I have this tendency where I want to immediately become the
• 20:37
  expert of what I'm doing.
• 20:39
  So there's patience as I'm trying to figure something new out
• 20:43
  that I'm trying to make myself...
• 20:47
  I like to grab little Bach flower essences in the morning and
• 20:50
  I'll just kind of
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: grab the one and then I'll look up what it means.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And literally pulled up in patience, the flower the other day.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I wonder what this means.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it meant in patience.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to push so hard towards the finish line that it's,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoy the complexity of substack because it didn't allow me to do that.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Had to sit and marinate.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And figure out, like, what I want the shape of this to look like.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: When you launched your sub stack, did you plan on just writing?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or had you already started to introduce visual mediums into your work?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So as far as the drawing and the art, is that what you're... Yes.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well...
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 21:41
  that is actually one of the biggest revelations of my own life
• 21:44
  personally that I'm
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: sure we'll get into.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: But no, so the art was not going to feature.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: The drawing side of it was not going to feature.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: My intention was to...
• 21:57
  create writing pieces of writing and also I did have a much
• 22:02
  bigger motivation
• 22:03
  beyond that and it was and it was really very successful in far
• 22:09
  as far as like
• 22:11
  bringing people with me that had a combined interest and I
• 22:15
  guess where where it
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: sprang from was like I am here and
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Working in a way that most people would understand to be successful.
• 22:25
  I am speaking of connection and belonging and this animal body
• 22:31
  that is so important
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: to tend to if we want to be healthy,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: functioning people in the world.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And yet I feel like I am still part of a system that is bleeding me dry.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm tired.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm beyond tired.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: I am saying I'm busy all of the time.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not having enough time outside.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not having a time enough looking at the birds.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not doing all of the things that I recommend other people do.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I dissent like I'm done.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: That was really how I felt like I am done.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: I really reached an internal threshold.
• 23:06
  And so the project that I launched that was bringing in this
• 23:11
  poetic writing side of me,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I called Interwoven.
• 23:15
  And that was about explorations of nature and place as an
• 23:19
  explicit intention.
• 23:22
  Like I am going to write about this every week and I'm going to
• 23:24
  bring you with me
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: if you want,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: because I am living in a way that I do not want to be living.
• 23:31
  And there is an end point to that and there's an end point to
• 23:34
  my life,
• 23:34
  frankly.
• 23:35
  And I want everything moving forward to be in service of this
• 23:40
  incredible world that
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: we're a part of and also a way of living that is sustainable.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: That really hit me between the eyes, I think, last year.
• 23:49
  One of the beautiful and challenging aspects of my nature is my impulsivity.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, let's go, team.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing it now and yesterday.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how that kind of kick started as well from a community aspect.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's morphed into something else more recently,
• 24:07
  just as a result of some changes that needed to be made to
• 24:11
  ironically also make
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: that project sustainable.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: The world is thankful for your impulsivity.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: We benefit from it greatly.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: So when did you start drawing?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Have you always drawn?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I am one of these classic people that is like, I cannot draw.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can only draw stick figures.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: I have incredible visions in my mind about what I would like to draw.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And immediately,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: as soon as it came out on paper,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: what is this ungodly creature that is in front of me?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: I really empathize and understand that feeling of like,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: there's this thing I can do and there's this thing that I can't do.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is kind of ridiculous to describe because it feels like magic.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we are magic in lots of ways because...
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: When you start to play more in your right brain,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: you start to lessen the stranglehold that the left brain has,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: which is this analytical,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: questioning,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: judgmental at times part of us,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: which of course we absolutely need,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: but tends to be over magnified in our creative selves.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: My belief is playing more in that side,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: playing more with creativity,
• 25:30
  really getting into understandings about movement and the
• 25:33
  nervous system got me to
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: a place where I followed lines of curiosity,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: which I'd never allowed myself to follow before.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I let myself learn, which as adults, we can be really crap at.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the ideas that I had was...
• 25:53
  a singular thought around,
• 25:55
  you know,
• 25:55
  I would really love to be able to draw birds.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: That was my, that was the thought.
• 25:59
  I'd love to be able to draw birds that I love looking at art
• 26:03
  that involves birds.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: one of my obsessions,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: which is why my Substack page is now called To Begin With The Birds,
• 26:11
  is to help protect and create more awareness around the plight
• 26:18
  of New Zealand's
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: native bird species,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: which are
• 26:21
  if in many cases endangered or on their way out for a variety
• 26:25
  of different reasons.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there are works of art walking around.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like I am amazed.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: at these creatures that are outside your window.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: They're very, very beautiful.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very, very beautiful.
• 26:38
  And one of the things just to go a little bit tangential on
• 26:42
  this is that when New
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Zealand broke off from the rest of the world,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: when the tectonic plates were splitting,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: there were no mammalian predators that came with us.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of our bird life is ground dwelling,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: flightless,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: or doesn't fly very well,
• 27:00
  and also have set up nesting sites which are very easily
• 27:03
  accessible to predators.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: there were some definitely species that started to be,
• 27:11
  that were overhunted as a result of the Indigenous tribes or
• 27:15
  the Maori tribes.
• 27:17
  People came here from the islands maybe 800 to 900 years ago
• 27:21
  and they brought rats
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: with them at that time.
• 27:26
  But that had a limited effect in comparison to colonisation
• 27:29
  where we introduced
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: rabbits and the idea of rabbits was that
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: we had found this country that was similar to the UK,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: similar to the Isles,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: but we could bring over different animals to hunt.
• 27:45
  So in the UK at the time,
• 27:46
  hunting was something that was reserved for the higher class.
• 27:51
  And so it was something here that we could do and we weren't
• 27:55
  bound to those same rules.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: So when we introduced rabbits,
• 27:58
  we expected them to function in the same way as the UK and they
• 28:01
  actually completely
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: decimated the landscape here to the point where they became...
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: blankets of rabbits across the hillsides.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: It is still a problem, but they really decimated the landscape.
• 28:12
  And so we came in with a very ingenious plan to oppose the
• 28:17
  rabbit with the stoat
• 28:18
  and the ferret and some other creatures that were seen as their
• 28:23
  natural opposition.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, they just ended up eating all our birds.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so New Zealand has one of the most rapidly increasing
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: lists of extinct or endangered species anywhere in the world.
• 28:37
  And our birds are rapidly on the way out because of their
• 28:42
  susceptibility to these predators.
• 28:44
  And you go to some of our national parks and there are no birds,
• 28:46
  like literally no birds.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a big, big deal here.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that people don't realise...
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: how much of a deal it is.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's one of my passions is bringing that to the forefront.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, sorry, I got off track.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm glad you did.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what was the purpose then as you started to draw?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: So drawing for me,
• 29:12
  the first thought that I had was I would really love to be able
• 29:16
  to illustrate my work.
• 29:18
  Like I have and had a vision to write a book and that's in the
• 29:23
  early stages of happening now.
• 29:25
  And I thought,
• 29:26
  you know,
• 29:26
  I'd really love to be able to add my own sketches.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started drawing some very misshapen
• 29:33
  somewhat unrecognizable birds and for whatever reason I just
• 29:39
  kept going I treated
• 29:40
  it like anything else that I wanted to learn and I also found
• 29:45
  this place beyond
• 29:46
  words that was so it was like a suspended state of being I
• 29:51
  can't even describe to
• 29:53
  you I'm going to find ways of describing because I want to
• 29:55
  write about it but a
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: drawing to me is the ultimate joy
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing I love more than drawing,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: which is just such a wild thing for me to say,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: given that.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: You never thought you would say that.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really, no.
• 30:12
  There are people now when I draw and they're like,
• 30:14
  I didn't know you drew.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I didn't.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's why you didn't know, because I didn't draw.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I just dedicated myself to it and I can get, I get lost.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I could literally draw all day and,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: and not think of anything else and not,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: not be concerned by anything else.
• 30:33
  It's like the number one thing on my list that I would love to
• 30:36
  do or do love doing.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the drawing as well, you know, there's so much to learn from that.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: It, it allows us on, uh, I have dived into this, so it allows us on
• 30:48
  a brain level on a nervous system level to access the part of
• 30:54
  ourselves dedicated
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: to non-focus,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: which is something that is not typically talked about.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: We always talk about we need to focus, you need to focus in.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: But focusing requires a huge amount of energy.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of intellectual energy.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of cognitive energy.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of physical energy to focus.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not supposed to be focusing all the time.
• 31:17
  And when we don't have periods of non-focus in terms of the
• 31:21
  part of our brain
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: that's activated,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: then that focus muscle itself becomes atrophied,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: not through underuse,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: but actually through overuse.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a tight, contorted muscle that doesn't get a rest.
• 31:34
  And so a lot of us are in stages where we're focusing on things
• 31:37
  that require us,
• 31:38
  like our work.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then after our work, we're on our phones or we're scrolling.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not non-focused time.
• 31:45
  That's actually time where little drops of information are
• 31:48
  feeding into our brain
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: at a rate that our sensory system can't assimilate.
• 31:52
  And so we're never having these spaces of opening where ideas
• 31:56
  are free to find us online.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: or where solutions are free to find us.
• 32:00
  And for me,
• 32:01
  drawing actually amplifies my writing,
• 32:04
  but it exists for itself as well.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't exist for my writing,
• 32:09
  but it does take me to that place where I notice that the more
• 32:12
  I let myself draw,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: the less I exist in an anxious body,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: the less rumination,
• 32:19
  the less worry that I experience because I am allowing that
• 32:26
  part of myself to be
• 32:28
  activated and it provides me with ways of being that the left
• 32:35
  brain could never
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: have fulfilled.
• 32:38
  Is the non-focus state,
• 32:41
  is it similar to a flow state or are those two things different?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're different.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're different.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a Harvard University study and this
• 32:51
  makes me smile every time for people that have studied doodling
• 32:56
  so the act of
• 32:56
  doodling on a page and doodling is that same unfocus it's you
• 33:01
  in a daydream state I
• 33:03
  guess but it's it's different to that because drawing I mean
• 33:06
  you could say that
• 33:07
  drawing does require focus but it's not the same it's not the
• 33:13
  same focus as
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: language and
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the same focus as words,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: and it's a coordinated focus between our hand,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: our eye,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: and our brain,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: which as human beings has been something intrinsic to our evolution,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: is very organizing.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a part of our brain called the basal ganglia, which is
• 33:37
  part of our reptilian brain when we experience a trauma or an
• 33:40
  upset it gets very
• 33:41
  disorganized and so anything that requires repetitive movement
• 33:45
  of the hands or
• 33:47
  coordination between the eye and the hands is very organizing
• 33:50
  for that part of the
• 33:50
  brain so it's inherently soothing it's inherently comforting
• 33:55
  and but beyond that it
• 33:57
  actually is taking what can be a scattered library of assorted
• 34:02
  parts in our mind
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: and
• 34:04
  bringing them together in a place where they're available to be accessed.
• 34:08
  Have you done research on what brain waves are happening when
• 34:13
  we're drawing?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Have you looked at that?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't, I haven't, but I'm, I am really interested in it.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really interested in it because I mean,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: obviously I've been interested in the nervous system for a while,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: but so there's a,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: there's one side of it,
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: which is once we have got ourselves to a stage where
• 34:31
  We're sensing our way through the world rather than thinking
• 34:33
  our way through the world.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we're outside of that fight,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: flight,
• 34:37
  nervous system response being the dominant place that we're
• 34:41
  leading life from.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: then we're able to access our creative brain and our curiosity.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of opens up to us.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: But then there's this paradoxical side of it as well,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: meaning that if you actively step into that side of your brain,
• 34:54
  it also can lead you out of this space that is tight and
• 34:59
  concerned and only...
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: occupied with survival thoughts.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: you're always kind of going to get there,
• 35:06
  but you can actually intentionally get there by allowing
• 35:11
  yourself to step into that
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: space and follow something as simple as your curiosity.
• 35:15
  I'm obsessed with the dream states and the levels of
• 35:22
  consciousness that allow us to
• 35:25
  order our space and order the information that's inside of our
• 35:28
  brains and how we do
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: that subconsciously.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 35:31
  Thinking of a creative process,
• 35:34
  allowing us to do that consciously is amazing.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it is countercultural as well,
• 35:43
  which is why I've gone into this is because I'm very passionate
• 35:49
  for a number of
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: different reasons about people leading creative lives,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: about leading life with art.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that comes up, especially if you haven't
• 35:59
  actively gone there yourself if your curiosity has been picked
• 36:02
  by someone like you
• 36:03
  or me saying come to the dark side and maybe write a little bit
• 36:06
  and maybe draw a
• 36:07
  little bit and you find yourself doing that for a few days but
• 36:11
  then maybe on the
• 36:12
  fourth or fifth day you think what's the point like this is
• 36:14
  this doesn't even look
• 36:15
  like anything like what am I even doing here like I should be
• 36:18
  doing x y or z and
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I've got really interested in,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: because I understand that humans are driven by mystery and magic,
• 36:27
  but I also understand we're leaving a state of being that has
• 36:31
  trained us into a
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: certain way of thinking and
• 36:34
  Sometimes we need to be tricksters in working with that part of
• 36:37
  the brain to
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: validate why we're here.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why I've gone into the research.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because truly I don't care that it's part of the unfocus.
• 36:44
  I don't care that I know how I feel when I do it and I don't
• 36:48
  need you to tell me
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: the science behind it.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: But if someone does, I can now say to you, you know,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: You playing in this way activates these unfocused circuits,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: which is something that most people haven't heard of before,
• 37:02
  which means that you are now available in a much bigger way for
• 37:05
  the things that you
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: want to be available for.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: And not only that,
• 37:10
  but you are much more creative in the ideas and the solutions
• 37:15
  and the ways of being
• 37:17
  you could approach this that you never would have been able to
• 37:20
  access without
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: having gone to that place.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is motivating for people.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the trickster energy of it is that once you're there,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: you find actually a lot of other stuff happens.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you motivated me to buy a sketchbook.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Visual arts is something that I've come to time and time again.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: I studied...
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Art history, because I couldn't draw.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: But so much of my writing has been inspired by visual works.
• 37:47
  And I've always just had so many visual artists creating around
• 37:51
  me and it's been amazing.
• 37:53
  One of the things that we've touched on a few times throughout
• 37:59
  our talk tonight or
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: in the daytime,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: what time is it where you're at?
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: It is 10 to 12.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost midday.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is fascinating to me.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you're in a different day.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: In the future.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, in the future.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:14
  Your purpose of drawing attention to the natural world and
• 38:18
  letting people know that
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: and expanding people's knowledge of the risks to the natural world,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: like you were talking about with the birds in New Zealand,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: at the same time,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: which is very science-based,
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's very much in this world-based,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: it's very much everything.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the mystery.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the way you are able to balance in all of your work,
• 38:45
  then the way you're able to balance and give a nod to the
• 38:49
  mystery while staying
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: firmly grounded in science is just beautiful to me.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then love your entry into the mystery for us.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we're sending you out ahead.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're sending you out ahead in a lot of things.
• 39:06
  But your ability to come back and report and help us balance
• 39:10
  those two things.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I just feel like the world is hungry right now for...
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: For the knowledge, we need the science.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: We need this.
• 39:20
  And we're moving out of that enlightenment thought and going
• 39:23
  deeper into the mystery.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we've forgotten the mysteries for a while.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we need artists to lead us back.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: We do,
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: and the thing is we have the science,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: but we have to figure out why we should care.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what brings us to caring is wonder.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: What brings us to caring is the magic and is the mystery.
• 39:43
  You know,
• 39:43
  I did a talk that you listen to,
• 39:46
  I know,
• 39:46
  on frogs and I wrote an article on frogs.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't an article, it was a story.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what saddened me was, you know, it was at the museum.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: I won't go on for too long about this, but
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's this incredible frog called Archie's Frog in New Zealand,
• 40:03
  which is the most distinct frog in the world as far as it
• 40:08
  hasn't changed for 150
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: million years.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's basically like a living mini dinosaur.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's older than the Himalayas.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: before the Atlantic Ocean even existed,
• 40:18
  there was Archie's Frog and they're on their way out and we
• 40:21
  were at the museum.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I only realised that when I was so...
• 40:27
  dissatisfied with the answers to the questions i was asking
• 40:30
  about frogs i did my
• 40:31
  own research and that's when i learned all of those things and
• 40:35
  i'm like how could
• 40:37
  you miss such a trick in a in a room with 40 children here
• 40:42
  about something that is
• 40:43
  endemic to new zealand that i didn't know about as an adult and
• 40:47
  here we are with
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: this opportunity to spread this wonder
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And when you really wonder about something and you're moved by something,
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: even something like a frog,
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: which you might not be physically drawn to,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: some people aren't,
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: they don't think much of frogs,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: but I personally think they're incredible.
• 41:03
  But,
• 41:03
  you know,
• 41:03
  but when you wonder about something,
• 41:05
  you are moved to protect it.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what takes you to the facts.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's what takes you to the science.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so science and the arts need each other.
• 41:14
  Like they desperately need each other and we're elevating one
• 41:17
  over the other.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: But the way we access people's caring is through being moved.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where pens are portals to...
• 41:29
  other worlds and I so strongly believe that you know that's
• 41:33
  where I'm I start under
• 41:35
  the guise of everyday creativity but my real passion is about
• 41:40
  like we we need you
• 41:42
  so desperately like we need you to be moved because when you're
• 41:47
  moved by something
• 41:48
  that you care about then you move the world basically and and
• 41:53
  what moves you may
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: not move me but I need what moves you to move me
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so we each get to move each other in that way.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's so, so important.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: I really do.
• 42:04
  And there's something so tangible when you're sharing space
• 42:07
  with somebody who's in
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: the middle of creation.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: There is something so sacred about that atmosphere.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it can make it incredibly hard for people to live with artists.
• 42:20
  It can make it incredibly hard when you are being pulled along
• 42:24
  with the thread of something and
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's hard to share space with that.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, there's a tangible there's a tangible shift.
• 42:37
  I know that's within my own energy and I can and I can feel it
• 42:40
  when I'm around
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: someone else who's kind of who's caught in the flow of that.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think makes it hard?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm curious about this.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering if... I'm turning the spotlight around a little bit.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if it's hard when you feel removed from the magic yourself.
• 42:58
  But if you're in the space of co-creating and someone's excited
• 43:02
  and you're excited,
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: even if you're doing different things...
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: it's like it exponentially increases the excitement.
• 43:09
  But if you're looking and you feel trapped in some way or like
• 43:12
  you're like in the
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: humdrum and they're doing this thing that's exciting,
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: then it can be challenging to witness.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: There are three defining moments in my life.
• 43:20
  And the first was when I was studying writing at college and I
• 43:26
  was surrounded by
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: deep academics doing their deep academic thing in the literary world.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was constantly thrown out that writers had the highest divorce rates.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just something that was just always spoken.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like we'd be going through someone's poetry.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, writers have the highest divorce rates.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: My ex-husband,
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: one of his parting phrases to me was,
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: make sure you don't tell the next one you're a writer.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was very, I was like, ooh, okay.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: So apparently I go somewhere else when I write.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: What a statement.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm married to somebody who says that back to me with joy.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, wow, wow.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm,
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad that you're a writer or like,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: this is rough watching you create and be grateful and to pull me along.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it is, I think that you're absolutely right.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: It is people who are craving that sense of being caught in the flow of,
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: of sinking into their own creativity.
• 44:36
  It's tough for them to be near somebody who's in that place and
• 44:39
  they don't feel
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: that they have permission to go there.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you're not controllable in that space.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: it's a very curious thing to me because on a cultural level,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: that's why creativity is so,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: that's why people are afraid.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like journalists are targeted in countries where free speech isn't.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: available.
• 45:00
  You know,
• 45:01
  writers are,
• 45:03
  books are banned,
• 45:04
  you know,
• 45:04
  writers are powerful people.
• 45:07
  The artists are powerful people and that's been demonstrated
• 45:10
  through history.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so on a personal level as well and on an individual level,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: we recognise the potency of creativity in creating autonomy and
• 45:21
  decisions that benefit the whole if we are if we're operating
• 45:25
  from a place of
• 45:26
  elevation which hopefully all art is it's it's not always but
• 45:30
  my personal passion
• 45:31
  is on art that elevates and uplifts and so you recognize that
• 45:37
  that life force in
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: someone and if you believe
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: you don't have permission for that as well,
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: which can be not as a result of anything external to you,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: but your own belief system around,
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not creative,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: I can't write,
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: I can't draw,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: all of these
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: beliefs that we tell ourselves,
• 45:58
  then that becomes a very bright light reflected back to you
• 46:03
  that you either use to
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: propel yourself or you try and shut that down in someone else.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so much of it hinges on fears.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of times in my creative process,
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've allowed other people's fear to get in the way of it.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to please,
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: like you,
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make sure that you're,
• 46:26
  I want to make sure that the people around me are not having a
• 46:29
  miserable time.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make sure that I'm doing the right thing.
• 46:33
  And it wasn't until I started really taking a step back and
• 46:38
  sinking into other
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: people's projections bouncing toward me,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: that mirror reflecting back,
• 46:45
  I didn't realize how much of other people's fears was keeping
• 46:49
  me from launching
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: fully into my own creativity.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so, so much in alliance with that, yeah.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for both of us,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: those people-pleasing patterns,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think I should probably say,
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm much less willing to please now.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I am, I'm really like, that is a fire that is burning out.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like I am, I'm really going somewhere different now.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a, that is an ember.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm still, it really does have a limited future.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:18
  I'm reconciling its shadow from the past,
• 47:20
  but it is not a big player moving forward.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: I feel that the deeper as I walk into my cronyism, embrace her.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's less and less.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's less with each passing day.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:37
  Rediscovering that flame of creativity that we're being pulled
• 47:44
  to within the natural world.
• 47:48
  And I have always been surrounded by nature writers and I've
• 47:52
  been surrounded by
• 47:53
  ecologists and I've been surrounded by these people doing it on
• 47:57
  an academic level.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I love primitive art.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: I love outsider art.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love...
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: The art that we're not going to see hanging in the gallery.
• 48:07
  I love the person that I'm going to find on the side of the
• 48:10
  road that's been creating.
• 48:12
  And it's been those poets who have brought me back into a love
• 48:18
  of nature writing.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the people I'm going to find in literary journals.
• 48:23
  It's the people that I'm going to find producing within their communities.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there's been,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: just in the past few years,
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: your work and so many others that I've just happened on.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's made me take a deeper look at the world around me.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: When you began drawing birds, did you take any classes?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've done a lot of YouTube tutorials and... Wow.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: I just started trying to draw.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: I know it sounds like I just started trying to draw.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a beautiful Australian artist called Natalie Eslick.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have done a course of hers where...
• 49:12
  I watched a couple of her tutorials and just there's some very
• 49:16
  simple things that
• 49:17
  you can understand about drawing in terms of like relationships
• 49:22
  of different points
• 49:23
  on an animal or on a on a picture and value which just means
• 49:27
  light and dark and
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: those sorts of very basic understandings once they clicked in my brain
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the more you see, the more you see.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I just kept going and kept going.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then I noticed that my birds were starting to look more like birds.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in love with your birds.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thanks.
• 49:47
  And then I got brave enough the last little while to share a
• 49:50
  couple of them.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's been really fun.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: And, yeah, now I've expanded my...
• 49:58
  to kind of into much larger things,
• 50:01
  just art generally and drawing and painting generally.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 50:05
  um you know I have a sketchbook that I have many sketchbooks
• 50:08
  that are on the go and
• 50:10
  that was gonna be my next question what are your tools and
• 50:12
  mediums like like what
• 50:13
  do you love what do you love playing with and working with all
• 50:16
  of it what do I love
• 50:17
  playing with and working with so I really loved um just
• 50:22
  graphite sketching I loved
• 50:23
  working in pencil just very basic pencil to start with and then
• 50:28
  my most current
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: love is I guess you just call it inking like black
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: a black fine point pen.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I tend to do a sketch in graphite and then I,
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: an outline in graphite,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: and then I will add a lot of detail with a very,
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: very fine black,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: like pigment marker pen.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: The fun thing about the pigment markers is they're waterproof.
• 50:50
  So you can do like washes with them,
• 50:52
  or you can add watercolor to them as well.
• 50:55
  And the next stage,
• 50:57
  I think,
• 50:58
  is to start playing a little bit more with colour.
• 51:01
  So learning a little bit more about paint and getting a little
• 51:04
  bit more exploratory
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: in my sketchbook with how that will look and what to do with that.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: I started a project at the start of the year,
• 51:12
  which was just a very personal one about another one of my
• 51:16
  obsessions is really
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: understanding and connecting with your allies in the natural world.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I went through a really rough patch towards the end of last year and
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so as part of my intentional decision to step outside of that,
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
• 51:30
  every morning I'm going to wake up and I'm going to draw
• 51:32
  whatever natural ally
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: grabs my attention.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've created my book of allies, which is drawings of,
• 51:40
  whatever or whoever has spoken to me that day and that's
• 51:44
  something that i'm really
• 51:45
  keen to share as well and kind of develop a bigger project
• 51:48
  around because it's just
• 51:49
  really moving to me can you explain to us because i think so
• 51:53
  many people in the
• 51:54
  barn have heard me give a really poor explanation of it which
• 51:58
  was omen days because
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: i'm obsessed
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: So did you have any discovery?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: First off, I want you to explain to us what Omen days are.
• 52:09
  And secondly,
• 52:10
  any sort of discoveries that you made going through the process
• 52:14
  of noticing that?
• 52:16
  Yeah,
• 52:17
  so omen days are a very old Celtic,
• 52:23
  as far as my understanding,
• 52:24
  is tradition.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they're intercalorie days,
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: which means that there's the Gregorian calendar that we all...
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's the right word,
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: isn't it?
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm like questioning my words now, being asked to explain it.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's a Gregorian calendar that we all play to.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so... Yes.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: And on that, so say faiths that...
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: on the Gregorian calendar, January 6th would be Christmas.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: So what it is,
• 52:53
  is there's a space where the Celtic calendar didn't match up
• 52:57
  with the Gregorian calendar.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so this Omen days was the intercalary days,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: they called them,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: where the two calendars were catching up to each other.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: And they were also, I hope that that's right.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: I could be using the incorrect terms, but I hope that that's kind of the
• 53:14
  The premise behind it is there's two different calendar systems
• 53:17
  that are out of
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: sync for a number of days that go between Christmas and January 6th.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so where the tradition arose from,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm sure it's actually beyond that as well,
• 53:27
  because that calendar wouldn't have even featured really as
• 53:30
  part of that tradition originally.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: What that period represents in days is the following 12 months.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: So say December 26th represents January 6th.
• 53:42
  December 27th represents February and so on and so forth and so
• 53:45
  at that time how
• 53:48
  they understood it to play out was that you intentionally
• 53:52
  connected with the
• 53:53
  natural world you observed what went on around you and you were
• 53:57
  offered an omen on
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: that day which could be a wren landing on your window or it could be that
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:05
  you walked under an oak tree and an acorn fell on your head or
• 54:08
  perhaps you had a
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: thought or,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: a flock of geese flew over and that was your omen.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: during that time,
• 54:18
  the connection and understanding of natural signs was much more
• 54:22
  intrinsic than it
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: is to us these days.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we have the opportunity
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: whether this is correct or incorrect,
• 54:30
  to create our own mythologies and our own understandings of
• 54:35
  signs and signals.
• 54:35
  And to an extent,
• 54:36
  that's what always has happened,
• 54:38
  but we've lost our sense of that.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so the way that I practice it is that I...
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: tune into what has registered in the biggest way.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if,
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: if I do really take notice of a particular animal that's crossed my path,
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: or there's a song that even comes on,
• 54:56
  or there's like this series of words that I just keep hearing
• 54:59
  over and over again,
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just journal about that.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be like, you know, this is what's happened.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: What is the possible meaning that I could take from this?
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't overthink it.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to go down, you know, too many rabbit holes with it, but
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a really beautiful practice of noticing, I think.
• 55:15
  And it's always very interesting to me because I think we all
• 55:21
  intrinsically feel
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: there is this hush that happens.
• 55:26
  I guess the other thing that happens there on an astrological
• 55:29
  level is that the
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: distance between the earth and the sun,
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: it's in a period of suspended animation for that time.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: So
• 55:37
  It's the time in our evolution on a literal revolution of the
• 55:43
  world where we are
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: most stable in our position to the other entities around us,
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: in particular the sun.
• 55:50
  And so after that,
• 55:51
  it starts to sort of shift in the other direction again.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's just a beautiful practice.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: It really is, yeah.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: I stand to be corrected on a number of factual elements of that,
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: but just as a practice,
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: it is a really beautiful.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: It sounded absolutely legitimate, everything.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Never Google anything, no.
• 56:12
  Explain to us how Interwoven moved into what you're offering
• 56:17
  your community on Substack now.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Explain that evolution to me.
• 56:24
  So Interwoven started as a poetic and practical adventure into
• 56:30
  our relationship with place.
• 56:32
  And the poetic side of it just comes off the reality that my
• 56:38
  writing tends to err that way.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why,
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: but it just comes out in a sort of sing-y,
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: song-like type fashion that I'm always interested in.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to make it not like it wasn't mechanical.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't going to be methodical.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was really looking at mythologies and...
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: the underlings that course under the surface and,
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: similar to what we've just been describing,
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: like the magic and meaning of place and our sense of belonging to it.
• 57:11
  And how that evolved was each week I would pick a theme to work
• 57:15
  on and I would
• 57:17
  explore that theme myself and then I would write about it and I
• 57:23
  would offer prompts
• 57:24
  and readings to anyone that was a part of it who wanted to
• 57:27
  adventure alongside that
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: with me.
• 57:29
  And it was very,
• 57:31
  very beautiful and it was really a lot of work in the best
• 57:36
  possible way.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: But what I realised...
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: After I think we did 16 revolutions of that over a period of months,
• 57:45
  I kept offering them in chapters and then we would have a
• 57:47
  little break and we would have.
• 57:49
  workshops and things that went alongside that,
• 57:51
  which is still available for people.
• 57:53
  What I was interested in developing and what I was hearing from
• 57:58
  other people as
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: well was,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: so beyond this specific project,
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: how does this continue?
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: That was the first question that I was asking myself.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: And how does it continue in a sustainable way?
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's quite,
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: for anyone that's compiled these types of projects together,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: there is
• 58:14
  lot that goes into it behind the scenes and when you have
• 58:16
  family and work and you
• 58:18
  know all these other things going on it can you need to keep
• 58:21
  asking yourself how
• 58:23
  things evolve in a way that works for everyone and so that was
• 58:26
  the first question
• 58:27
  and the second question was you know people were really keen to
• 58:32
  share with me and
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: to share their creations not just with me but with each other and
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I was really interested,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: not in just myself,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: but I was interested in other people's experiences.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the medium of Substack for me didn't provide that easily.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was good for me to bring things out.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 58:56
  And so I had to really sit with that for a while and had a
• 58:58
  little crisis about how
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: to figure that out.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I've transitioned to is a community space called Circle.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, this wasn't what you asked me, was it?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: It is?
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a question.
• 59:12
  I wanted to know,
• 59:14
  like,
• 59:14
  because I am looking at so many different gathering spots.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: I can move to,
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: and I've probably been doing this for three years,
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: but Circle seems like it really is.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: It creates conversation.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's a space where conversation flows.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I am.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's intuitive to use in that,
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: like you log on and it makes sense about where to go and how to be.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really important to me,
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: in other aspects of my work,
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: not related to what we're talking about now.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: I started so long ago and I started when social media was good, right?
• 59:52
  I started when social media was friendly and people loved it
• 59:57
  and it felt like it
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: was progressing humanity.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's when I started.
• 1:00:02
  And so I put my groups there and I put my business there and we
• 1:00:05
  were all happy and
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: everyone was holding hands and supporting each other.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's not like that,
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: unfortunately,
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: but my groups are there and other things are there that...
• 1:00:14
  if i truly had the choice i wouldn't be there so i i had to ask
• 1:00:19
  myself if i'm in
• 1:00:21
  this place of now in 2025 creating moving forward and i'm
• 1:00:26
  asking people to live
• 1:00:27
  lives that are supportive of the world i don't want to be
• 1:00:30
  sitting on platforms that
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: are
• 1:00:33
  working to the opposite of that yeah um if i can help it and
• 1:00:37
  also just in terms of
• 1:00:38
  our attention economy like you know i want people's minds to be
• 1:00:42
  as free and
• 1:00:43
  creative and circle is removed from social media you don't get
• 1:00:47
  other stuff you just
• 1:00:48
  get the group when you're there so on the one hand it you have
• 1:00:52
  to be intentional
• 1:00:53
  about visiting so it doesn't like you don't stumble across it
• 1:00:57
  just as a result of
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: being on social media necessarily which makes it you know it's
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: you have to go there.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: But when you do go there, I think it's worth it.
• 1:01:06
  And it just is a space that is set up in a similar flow to what
• 1:01:10
  we're used to.
• 1:01:10
  So there is a feed,
• 1:01:12
  there is the opportunity to set up different groups within that.
• 1:01:15
  And it does function in a way where visually and functionally
• 1:01:19
  we're queued into how
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: that kind of rolls out as a result of our training on social media.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just art.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's just creating.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's just people in
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: in my pay community as part of that particular group.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm enjoying it so far.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now that I've fallen into some sort of,
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: of dark web list on Substack where I have Keanu Reeves and Stephen King.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how,
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: where this list came from,
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: but it's,
• 1:01:50
  it's really driving me more and more to find a safe landing
• 1:01:54
  spot for my group.
• 1:01:57
  So thank you for,
• 1:01:58
  for paving the way with circle and kind of exploring that
• 1:02:00
  leading us to it.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: But what is your intention for your subscribers?
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: What are you creating that space for them to land into?
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:02:13
  so my intention is to support people and inspire people to
• 1:02:21
  basically live the
• 1:02:22
  everyday magic that is creativity and to center creativity in
• 1:02:27
  their lives for all
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: of the reasons that we've talked about.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_00: And beyond that,
• 1:02:34
  to also explore writing and art and creating as a portal to
• 1:02:42
  uplift and protect the
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: things that matter to us.
• 1:02:45
  And so there's a,
• 1:02:48
  you know,
• 1:02:48
  I don't tend to lead with that latter line because I recognize
• 1:02:52
  that
• 1:02:53
  that could be overwhelming depending on where you are in,
• 1:02:55
  in your,
• 1:02:56
  in your journey.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: But really that's the,
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: I strongly believe in the life changing magic of creating and,
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: Martha Beck has this incredible way of describing it,
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: which I've stolen from her.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: And she says,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: we're in never before times,
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: which require never before solutions and never before answers.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I,
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: The way that I've made that my own is that when you're creating,
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: you're in the never before part of you.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: You're in the never before part of your brain.
• 1:03:29
  You're in the never before accessed place that is already in
• 1:03:33
  you that allows you to
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: meet those never before scenarios.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: whether that's in your own backyard and your own family,
• 1:03:42
  where you accessing that part of you allows you to meet your
• 1:03:47
  family more creatively
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: and more lovingly and more openly.
• 1:03:50
  I mean,
• 1:03:51
  if we all had a series of happy families,
• 1:03:53
  what a great world we'd be in.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like, that's magic to me.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: But also if your drive is not only that,
• 1:04:01
  but beyond your own backyard or the backyard that extends
• 1:04:04
  outside the house that
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: you live in,
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: then
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_00: To me,
• 1:04:07
  that's something that I would love to be supportive of in
• 1:04:11
  whatever way that was possible.
• 1:04:13
  And so I think that perhaps I'm in a good position to be able
• 1:04:17
  to do that with the
• 1:04:19
  body stuff and the nervous system stuff and just my own
• 1:04:22
  desperate passion for
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: creating and genuine excitement for everything that everyone else makes.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like I'm a...
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_00: I need new words for like amazing and I love it.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder if people believe me, but I genuinely mean that.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm just so excited.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, if anyone...
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: chooses to start something that they've either never done before.
• 1:04:47
  Like I've got a couple of people in the group that have never
• 1:04:50
  drawn and they're
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: sharing these sketches,
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: which they obviously feel vulnerable about.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: They don't feel that they're good.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that's like,
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: what an incredible thing,
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_00: as adults,
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: we don't very often let ourselves do that.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just so, that's so inspiring to me.
• 1:05:06
  That's way more inspiring than most other things I read about
• 1:05:10
  in the news.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's...
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: that's I you know,
• 1:05:14
  I put most of my life I put out in my writing and there's not
• 1:05:18
  anything that makes
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: me feel like I don't know if I should do this.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: But playing in my sketchbook and I was like,
• 1:05:24
  I'm going to put this in my I'm going to put this in my
• 1:05:27
  newsletter this week.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to send it out to my subscribers.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to do this.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was hard.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like a little kid,
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: like I've been sketching kittens and I've been like sleeping cats,
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: just seeing if I can do them in like one continuous line.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been just presenting them to everybody.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be like, do you want to see my cat?
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:46
  And like,
• 1:05:46
  I'm this little kid and you could tell they're like,
• 1:05:49
  that's okay.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, I'll do it.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: If I go there too, if I'm going to go.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: Use my sleeping cats.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_01: Then you have.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I love about your work.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: You are the how you are continuously trailblazing the way deeper into our
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: understanding of us,
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: how we work physically and mentally.
• 1:06:12
  and how we work on that level of magic when we are diving
• 1:06:17
  deeper into our creativity.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna ask you something that I didn't prepare you for beforehand,
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: but if you have something on hand,
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would love it if you would give us a little reading of something,
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_01: either something from your Substack or something that you...
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just writing a poem at the moment,
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not finished.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: I will read you a little piece that I wrote on nesting.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: Does that work?
• 1:06:47
  Because some of my stuff is quite long and we don't want to be
• 1:06:50
  here all day
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: listening to me,
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: do we?
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is called Nesting.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: A bird makes her nest through a ritual of repeated tenderness.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_00: She has not been taught or shown.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: The first nest she understands is the one she is born into,
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: and yet,
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: at the same time,
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: it is the nest she's always known.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: For the nest is as much the bird as feather is the wing.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: When the time comes for her to build her own,
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: she trusts not the tree to hold her or the alcove to support her,
• 1:07:26
  but her own understanding of homemaking and belonging that she
• 1:07:30
  carries in the
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: outline of herself.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a little one.
• 1:07:41
  And this is the person that,
• 1:07:42
  what,
• 1:07:43
  two years ago allowed yourself to say,
• 1:07:46
  I may write poetry.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:52
  You know,
• 1:07:53
  I think I'd always been writing poetry,
• 1:07:55
  but just not let myself write poetry.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: Where can people find your work?
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: There are two places,
• 1:08:03
  but Substack is probably the place that if you stumble across
• 1:08:07
  that will be the most
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: interesting because the actual writing's there.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that is janepike.substack.com.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then to get to the other parts that we've described on Circle,
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_00: that's just part of the paid subscription on Substack.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to link to that in the notes for this show.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it is an absolute pleasure to have been able to spend time,
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: unadulterated time,
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: talking to you about creating.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're amazing.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: We did it.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_00: We've been talking about doing this.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_00: I have to actually flip the tables on you as well with it.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_00: But it was that was it was so fun.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_00: And such an honor.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've talked about it for a year.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I almost backed out last night.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I can't do this.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: I can't do this.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then I was like, wait, I can do this.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is going to work.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_00: It will work.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: It has worked.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: It has worked.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't wait to see what you're doing next.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: And before we go, what are you?
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: What are you working on?
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: What is in the works right now?
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_00: What is in the works?
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: I have so many things in the works I have to do.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_00: cut it down for myself to focus.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a multi-projected, multi-passionate creature.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: I have a book that I'm writing that is about the birds in New Zealand,
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_00: and I have no idea what form it is looking like at the moment.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's looking like a very long poem currently, but basically
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: my own passion project for protection and from a very poetic angle.
• 1:09:42
  And then I am just writing frequently as a practice of everyday
• 1:09:47
  love generally and
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_00: then producing kind of weekly,
• 1:09:50
  biweekly for Substack in that way and also daily in my group as
• 1:09:55
  part of our
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_00: creative community,
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: which I've just called Creating Wild,
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: which is fun.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love it.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: I renamed it, yeah.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love this.
• 1:10:07
  Well,
• 1:10:07
  I'm going to link you to your work and where everyone can find
• 1:10:11
  you in the notes.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I thank you so much for joining me today.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're such a gift.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_01: You are amazing.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to have more conversations.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know it.
• 1:10:29
  Thank you.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_01: and a place to connect with others who are navigating their own paths.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Visit me at stabileroots.substack.com and subscribe to stay grounded,
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: inspired,
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_01: and always relatively stable.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, take care and keep moving forward.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Love, Kim.