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What If You Chose the Wrong Path? How to Start Over | Don Talk · Don Talk - Conversations with Mike Turner

• Adam Cornell: adage or or the old Aaliyah song, age is age is just a number. Right? So whatever it is you're dealing with in the present, it doesn't matter how old you are. It matters about what qualities you have that you can that you can get through this. Great example. My school that I teach at is we're located on a community college. So our kids come to high school every day on a college campus. I was walking them to our P to their PE class, which is a college class, and there was a guy in there. he eventually just told me, I saw you helping people, and you just had this look that I felt like I felt comfortable talking to you. he's in his mid to late twenties. He's got two kids. And he literally said, I just I said, Well, what do you want to do? What kind of plans you got? He said, I I don't under I don't get that. The importance of making a plan. I don't have people in my corner. I'm living in my car. The mother of my fo kids don't even know she doesn't know that I'm not living in a home. he just felt so defeated. And by the time we were finished, he felt like he understood that life didn't have to stay where it is right now. And as long as he's willing to make those changes or or or seek help, get to the right resources. he became more open to that versus I can't I need to figure this out on my own. I'm not figuring out on my own and I'm frustrated. By the end of that conversation, man, it was like I wanted to tell the guy, I love you, man. Keep going. I didn't say I didn't use the words I love you, but I said, yo man, you got it. It's in there. You have it in you. If you're determined enough to do it, blah blah blah blah blah. Right? So Again I say it doesn't matter what age you are, it matters what qualities you have or what qualities you're willing to grow to get yourself through this situation. Mike Turner: everybody, just looked at the data. 98% of you viewing these videos are not subscribed. Huge. I know we're just getting started, but the 98% of you that are watching, please subscribe. Thank you. Welcome everybody to another episode of Don Talk. Conversation today is what if you choose the wrong path? The decisions we make young and the pivots we make later. How do we prepare boys to make decisions about the men they want to become and how do we help grown men change direction when the life they choose no longer fits what they've become? So that's what we're gonna talk about. We have College buddy Adam Cornell here, and he's also academic advisor and college preparatory helping college kids prepare for college. so thank you for coming on. And then we have Dr. Tenured Dr. Professor Maya Bowen, who is a former colleague and friend. So thank y'all for joining. We're gonna jump right into some some rapid fire questions. That sound good? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: That sounds great. Adam Cornell: Sounds good. Mike Turner: All right. So you can explain your answer, but no long dissertations for us right here. You gonna give us a just quick like quick little thoughts, would you rather type questions, all right? So number one, would you rather be 18 again, knowing everything you know now or get a million dollars today? Adam Cornell: Go ahead, Dr. Barnum. Mike Turner: Maya, you go first. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Million dollars. Yeah, I'm I'm taking that million. Adam Cornell: Same million dollars. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Taking that million. Mike Turner: All right. I'm I'm taking a million two 'cause I know a lot I could do with that right now. Adam Cornell: Yeah, absolutely. Mike Turner: at at eighteen you were actually listening to adults or were you just waiting for them to stop talking? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: I was listening. Adam Cornell: I was more of a waiter 'cause I I was very let me let me see what I can discover. So it wasn't Mike Turner: Yeah. Adam Cornell: ignoring what people were saying but I was absolutely ready to have my own experience. Mike Turner: I definitely was tuned in. I was like a sponge, listening to everybody at that age. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Me too. Me too. And then I would put the the bones to the side if it didn't apply for me. Mike Turner: Yeah. Yeah, it actually d it it depended on who was talking to. That I will say that. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah, exactly. Adam Cornell: Yeah. I was also the youngest of six kids, so at that point there was a lot I was already doing on my own and my parents were like, You figure it out. You make the choice of what Mike Turner: Ha ha Adam Cornell: you wanna do when you leave this house. So I was Mike Turner: There you go. Adam Cornell: pushed I was pushed to listen but also take my own Mike Turner: All right. What's worse? Choosing the wrong career or marrying the wrong person? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Marrying the wrong person. Adam Cornell: That's my answer. Marrying the wrong person. Mike Turner: Yep, I I agree with that one. I agree with that one. Harder to howder harder to rebound from, I'll say. Adam Cornell: I was gonna s yes. The pivot, the Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah. Adam Cornell: emotional pivot Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah. Adam Cornell: is is way less in careers, I think. Mike Turner: Yeah. All right. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: for me it's more so since I'm a divorcee, it's more so where I took it, I made sure that it was gonna make me better and not better. So Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. There you go. I love it. I love it. All right. So which decision an eighteen year old should be trusted more to make? College major or getting a tattoo? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: College major. Adam Cornell: Getting a tattoo. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Reason why I say college major real quick is because at any point in time, once they've been exposed, they can change it. Per tattoo is pretty much permanent unless they have the funds to actually get it reversed. Adam Cornell: Mm-hmm. I d I Mike Turner: Yeah. I I I like that one. Adam Cornell: yeah, I don't disagree with that. My perspective is though that I think I see students all the time under so much stress about choosing the right decision that sometimes they get paralyzed. but also like to your point, I think that in time it's okay to be able to change things and figure it out because those decisions aren't permanent. So I understand both sides. Mike Turner: Yeah. All right. Would you rather have a seventeen year old with no plan or a forty seven year old afraid to change his plan? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Seventeen euro with no plan. Adam Cornell: Sign. Mike Turner: Yeah, I'm I'm with that. what's more dangerous, a young man who thinks he knows everything, or an older man who refuses to admit he doesn't? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: A older man that Adam Cornell: I'm Dr. Mya T. Bowen: refuses to admit he doesn't, but I have asterisk next to that 'cause the seventeen year old that has it all figured out, is not open to receiving information that could be pertinent to their short lifespan. So they need to have their hands open to receive and not think they know it all because they only been on the planet less than two decades. So z they they gotta be willing to receive. Adam Cornell: Yeah, I I think I I don't disagree. I think I also think that as men, if we're unable to pivot, that can affect a lot more people than just us. And at seventeen, it's kind of just us and and maybe parents or whatever, but but a stubborn seventeen year old is common. and I think they can find their way a little bit easier than a forty seven year old man, perhaps. Mike Turner: I like that one. That's a good way of of of putting it. at what age are you too old to say I'm still figuring myself out? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: there is never an age that would stop me or anyone or should stop anyone from actually saying that. They're still figuring out because even with this new day, this is the first day that we've actually seen on this new day versus having actually had all days a par as part of our our life journey, right? So we've seen Saturdays, but we ain't seen this Saturday. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Adam Cornell: Yeah, and I think as much as we continue to get I'll just say we continue to get older, our environments life environment is always changing. so I think you know, we have to adapt and you know, for example, I remember when my mom passed and my father had to pivot and then discover who he was gonna be without her. So I think when life circumstances change then we adapt, hopefully. Mike Turner: Yeah. Hopefully. That's the key word, hopefully. All right, Maya, you I want you to answer this next question based on the your experience in dealing with these type of individuals. So, what's harder for a man to say, I don't know, I need help, or I change my mind? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: I need help. reason being is I wanna say it's based on psychology, the ego. I think that embracing humanness and humility and not having to feel as though you have all the answers is something that can pose to be an obstacle for folks. men, but women too. But yeah, it's it's a it's a big hindrance. and you know, it just goes back to if you're open minded enough to understand that y you are human and you don't have all the answers and you shouldn't feel like you do have all the answers, that hopefully you can get some more accomplished through that particular exposure, whatever that exposure may be. But definitely the I don't know has come up multiple times. Adam Cornell: So can I ask a follow up question? Mike Turner: What do you say, Adam? Yeah. Adam Cornell: Dr. Bong, in your experience, why do you why what do you think some of the bigger differences are between men not being able to say I need help and women embracing those words more? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: not understanding that both genders are human, right? Neither gender has all the answers. and being patient with self and others. patience is something that is a virtue, as they say, and so Some people have grown into it, some have it naturally, and some just resist it with all their fiber and it's just been so much variety that I've been exposed to that where it is that if a if a man says I don't know and a woman can't accept that then there should be further conversation, right? And I think the conversational piece is is huge because communication bridges gaps between knowns and unknowns and where the breakdown occurs where neither party or one of the parties is not willing to go the distance with that communication, it poses an issue. Adam Cornell: Good good perspective. Mm Mike, you've been doing this for Mike Turner: Which one would you say, Adam? Adam Cornell: a while. Well, you've been you've been having these conversations for a while. Do you think there's a difference in I'm gonna pose a question a little differently? Do you think there's a difference in gender norms of of the the phrase I don't know? The acceptance of that phrase. Do you think it's gender based? Or do you f or I'm gonna ask it may ask it this way. Do you think we're it's a a groomed gender-based van namina. Mike Turner: I think this is once again my personal opinion and my experiences and I'm not gonna generalize every person in the same category, but I think Adam Cornell: Yeah, yeah. Mike Turner: they fall into two categories. A man literally doesn't know and they say they don't know, or they say I don't know because they don't want to argue. And Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm. Mike Turner: they don't want to deal with going back and forth. And it's like, I give up. I don't know. Just tell just tell me what you want. Like or just tell me what you want me to hear. Adam Cornell: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Turner: so I think is is one of those two. They truly don't know, or they're just like not playing games here. Just tell me what you want me to hear. Or so I think it's one of those two. Adam Cornell: I think I think I'm processing the question a little differently in that I think it's generally not allowable for men to not know things. because it makes us less of that alpha alpha male that I think a lot of men are groomed to be. And when we don't know, I mean internally we're like, Yeah, I should know this, but I don't. And then we think I'm weak because I don't know. Again, that's a generalization. Mike Turner: Yeah. Adam Cornell: But I I think Society is less forgiving in certain situations where men don't know and can't produce an answer or a solution. Mike Turner: Yeah, and I think the the the more important phrase that men struggle to say is I need help. because I think that has a bigger effect on our ego than I don't know. Because now Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm. Mike Turner: you're ac you're telling yourself or accepting the fact that you can't do it on your own. The alpha Adam Cornell: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Turner: male, the macho male can't do it and you got any help. But then you the and that sucks because no one and I mean absolutely no one can go through life without help. No one can do it by themselves. So we have to get to Dr. Mya T. Bowen: That's true. That's true. Mike Turner: the point of if I'm struggling, I need to be able to pick up the phone and call Adam to be like, Hey I'm struggling. And I just I just need some advice on which direction to go 'cause I don't know. And I need help. Adam Cornell: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mike, can I tag on to the alpha male type situation in terms of a societal norm? Let's be let's be real, not every male is a alpha male. Right? And so Adam Cornell: For sure. For sure. Mike Turner: This is true. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: where it is that perception and then force upon standards are something that really needs to be considered from an individual perspective of whether or not you're even embracing that in terms of what is the general way of doing things. Getting to know self is so important because it it comes back to humility where if it is that you can embrace the fact that you don't have all the answers and then at that point understand that either I don't know, I need help or dot dot dot I can do that and then it depends on where it's being directed to because the individual that you may turn to may not be able to give that but at the same time being humble enough to be able to admit at whatever point you're at that you can hopefully reach out for assistance and and just be blatantly unapologetically honest about that current position is is part of the journey and I'm still taking the journey. and so that self, understanding self is so important. Mike Turner: Yeah, I'll I hear you. Adam Cornell: Yeah, it and it's gotta be the right space for we're talking about men right now, for us to be able to do that. And I don't think a Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Adam Cornell: lot of times we feel like we have that space. I have a question I don't expect anyone to answer. I wonder how many men sorry, I wonder how many women when they're looking for a partner are conscious of I'm looking for an alpha male or I'm looking for a beta male. I wonder which one is more soft at So while this alpha male conversation began with me internalizing, but I think there's a lot of external ext i circumstances that feed into that. Again, I don't I don't know that anyone has an answer to that, but it'd be interesting to find out. Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: So Mike Turner: I don't. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: as the civil woman on here, I would say Adam Cornell: Mm-hmm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: that at one point, based on, you know, knowing about alpha versus other outside of alpha male positions, at one point I thought that the alpha was something that I desired, but then I had to take a step back and really start to internalize like you know we're all flawed and we don't have everything that particularly somebody else might need to have and so I star started taking it on a person by person basis so that I can get a un better understanding of who that person was and then Adam Cornell: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: see whether or not that individual was open to broadening his horizons and and and just embrace it himself. Can you be comfortable in your skin? Because for me personally I'm not trying to bring you down. I'm trying to add, right? And so if we're gonna walk together, both of us are gonna be constantly changing based on the environment and and seasons of our respective lives. And if we're doing it together, we might as well be open to understanding that life is a journey. And in you two being being track stars, you know, there's different types of track meets that go on and it r requires for you to have certain types of training and timing and all that good stuff. And so yeah, I mean for a lot of women the alpha has been produced as or promoted as the way to look for their mate, right? But ideally is that realistic Adam Cornell: Right. Right. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: So you gotta be open minded, you gotta be open minded. Mike Turner: Yeah. That's a Adam Cornell: That's that wisdom. I love it. Mike Turner: that's a that's a whole nother podcast right there, people. Which which which we're gonna have. That I I've actually Adam Cornell: It is. Actually sorry to send us through a a rabbit. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah. Mike Turner: trying to create this men versus women panel discussion. So I'm we gonna bring that topic back up. No, it's Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Is it is it really verses or is it Mike Turner: a conversation. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: conversation, right? No. Mike Turner: gonna be a conversation because I don't want I don't want us going at each other. It's just expressing thoughts and making sure we understand get to a point of understanding one another. All right. So so Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Absolutely. Adam Cornell: Yeah. Think back too. Mike Turner: here's where we we talk about the the transition, right? Like Adam, you help young people who are trying to become something. And my my you're at the point where you at a at a particular place where you you interact with a lot of individuals that are of a older age that are trying to make that pivot. And we're gonna get in here to a little bit about about your book that we'll talk about here in a little bit. So I I like the cross section of of your views, you two are two different places helping at two different points in life, which is the basis of this conversation. So the question that we're gonna kick this next section off is like which is harder for Finding out who you want to become or admitting you don't want to be the person you've become. Adam Cornell: Hmm. So when you say which one is more difficult, that's interesting. I think personally when I talk to my students, they're young, I'm telling them go have experiences, make mistakes, figure out how to recover, figure out who you want to be during adversity. So then when you figure that out, it's a lot easier to Handle adversity when get older, versus closing your eyes and waiting to see what's gonna happen in these situations. So I I would think that as an older man, individual, even, when we've had all this these experiences and we think we know who we are, and then life changes, and not everyone's equipped for that pivot. and I think looking over some of your prenotes is are we gearing individuals early on to be able to be okay with change and understand how to pivot. So I think the older we get, the more difficult it becomes. Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: I I'd say that, basically the social norms are what are getting in the way, right? So everything in the greater sense of things in terms of schooling is standardization. You gotta be perfect. That doesn't even exist, first off, right? Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: So where change comes into play, I break it down like this. Every minute change is occurring. And so the fact of the matter is that where individuals are adverse to change, it's happening whether we have a say in it or not. But then again, looking at that standardization model that goes on where you have to quote unquote earn the A or you have to get the quote unquote perfect job. And as we all know, there is no such thing as a perfect job. There is value in the purpose for the position that you have, right? So if you're in a position of being a student, getting to know how it is that you learned about self Adam Cornell: Mm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: as it was presented to me when I attended a function is very important because we teach you the disciplines. But do you know about you? As it is that you're going through the process of learning these disciplines and how they they actually apply to you, which speaks to the psychology behind it. Which I love psychology now. I was afraid of it because I started Adam Cornell: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: school at 17 and I looked at the course description and then said you have to open up at some point in class to discuss. I was like, No, I'm not ready for that. I'm not ready for that. So, but understanding that psychology is the study of how it is that you've think what better way to get a good gauge of self than to have an understanding of how you think, which your thoughts actually turn into behaviors, right? And so it's it's really and truly the type of journey that one must be open to in order to get to know themselves along the different areas of life that their footsteps may take them because no two are the same and and and and and it's it's ongoing hence the dash born Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: date and then that dash what are you learning about yourself and how it is that you are hopefully not putting so much pressure on yourself to be perfect that you give yourself grace enough to make the mistakes hopefully learn from those mistakes and make that transition no have it when necessary. and c sorry Mike Turner: Yeah, and I think that's why it's so important for for most people to I I I have this thing I like I don't know that everybody should go into school with a declared major. Because you Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: don't know you're young, you don't know. Like if you have a field that you wanna concentrate on, your electives and coursework should be geared towards that field but not declaring a major because I knew people that said, I'm gonna be a doctor and went pre med and after two years they dipped to a different direction. Adam Cornell: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: I changed my major three times because they told me I could do something and then with the with practice and everything I couldn't do what I wanted to do and had to figure it out. So I was better off just going, experiencing all the core classes I needed to take. Figuring out life, figuring out the adjustments, what I want to do, as Adam said earlier, gaining those experiences and then making the decision. it is it is definitely harder to, as they say, to teach an old dog new tricks, but sometimes you're forced into pivoting and you have to, and Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: sometimes you have the luxury of say, I don't like this anymore. I want to to pivot and make that change. I think it it varies. so it's hard for me to say one definite over the other because one can be a choice of one. Adam Cornell: So yeah, Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah. Adam Cornell: Mike, I think your next pivot is a professional school counselor in the high school arena. I think you should consider that. I have these conversations with depends on where you are. Triple triple Mike Turner: How much they how much they pay you? Adam Cornell: digits, brother. People don't know that. Mike Turner: Hey, we're we gonna talk about this 'cause listen, my whole goal in is to help people. And I have so many life experiences that I feel that's one of the reasons why I've been doing this podcast. I done been through mostly everything that you could possibly go through and just not being able to talk people, help help talk about it, help people out, help them get more clarity on that stuff is I'm wasting my time if I'm not doing that. So we'll talk about that, Adam, for sure. Adam Cornell: Yeah, for sure. so I'm gonna dig in a little bit more about what I do and how this what you are saying is why I agree a hundred percent with you. work at a school where our students graduate with an associate's degree at a high school. Very Mike Turner: nice. Adam Cornell: academically academically rigorous. We've got a health science track and a teacher prep track. So these kids one, they're high flyers. There's a lot of black High flyers around America that aren't getting this type of advice, right? so they're like, I have to have it figured out. I have to go to my especially like we have a a fairly strong community of African first generation American students who say, My dad, my parents want me to do this. I'm gonna be this because this is what my parents want. That's so detrimental now, right? So now you're choosing a major because other people are telling you this is what you should do. And the the few kids that we have that are honest and willing to admit, I don't know what I want to do, I tell them the same thing you essentially what you said. All your classmates who say, I want to be a neurosurgeon, I want to do this, I want to do that, they're gonna change their major one, two, three, four times until they figure it out. So you're 17 as a junior, 16 sometimes, trying to figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life. I just think that's a that's a terrible pressure that and expectation that society is is placing on these kids. And now especially for these high flyers, well everyone else around me knows. Why don't I know there's something wrong with me? Right? But you know, they have to have a certain amount of service learning hours to graduate. And even the freshmen are telling me, Hey, I want to get service learning hours and something that I'm interested in to see if this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. So somewhere we're starting an education to have better conversations, more productive conversations with these kids about maybe being a little bit more realistic. Yeah, we wanna have a plan, but if it doesn't work, let's have other options so we can pivot without freaking out. Mike Turner: So Adam, in this preparatory phase with these young men, do you see some of the or recognize some of the mistakes that they're making or because they're thinking ten years down the road and not in the here and now? Adam Cornell: I think those those types of mistakes I part of it's both. Part of because they're not thinking in the now. Like I'm just a freshman, so what I what I'm doing doesn't really Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm. Adam Cornell: have long term consequences. I have a young man who is taking Chinese. That's one of our languages. And the the teacher is also of Asian descent. Or the teacher is of Asian Asian descent. And There's a cultural clash that we have to break through. I don't know how I'm gonna do it. But I say that to say part of it is, and I learned this recently. I've been in education, this is my 25th year, and I heard this recently. I was like, that's brilliant. The expectations that our teachers have on us as black, anybody, but we're talking about black boys, black boys when we walk into that classroom. So the difference between a HBCU and a non-HBCU is can be more oftentimes that HBCU professors are going to expect us to be smart. They're going to expect us to be able to hang. We don't have to necessarily prove ourselves because we've already gotten into that institution at a HBCU. We go to a non-HBCU and the professor has to wait and see and maybe not encourage us to be brilliant right from the beginning. So, yes, it's about what these Young boys are the choices that they're making 100%. But it's also about the adults who are surrounding us. And I told the little boy, I know it's tough. This is adversity right now. And I said to I alluded to this earlier. This is gonna tell you how you're going to act for the rest. This can how you're gonna act for the rest of your life when you face diversity, right? Is it Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Adam Cornell: woe is me, or is it I have to do something to attempt to make this better for? So it's it's heavy it for teenagers, teenage boys. It's heavy. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: So is are you are you burdening them with that responsibility to to ease into it or like make the decision now or or here is what to expect and you make the decision when you're ready. Adam Cornell: I I'm less telling them things and more let's talk through some scenarios or how do you think it might happen if you do this? and and the other thing is I've I can make this space where I say, Go do it, try it. If it doesn't work, I'm here, I'll talk you through it. But if it works, you just earned another notch in your tool belt. Right? So for men, boys trying to become men. Figure this out. And if it doesn't work, come back to me and we can pivot and let's let's work through it. If they feel safe Mike Turner: Yeah, so Adam Cornell: enough to take risks, then I feel like we're allowing them to be who closer to who they want to be, or could be, I should say. Mike Turner: Yeah, so that begs the question which Dr. Mya T. Bowen: I I have a follow-up question. Mike Turner: yeah, go ahead. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: So, Carol Dwick talks about the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. Are you finding that it's either a fifty fifty or a is it leaning more towards a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset when it comes to the young men trying to identify which pathway they want to go down? Adam Cornell: Yeah, so the fixed mindset, growth mindset is something actually that we use in our in our campus a lot. So it's you know, freshman gender neutral, it doesn't matter. Lots of times are very fixed mindset. and so definitely growth mindset to me is also a part of take risks, try something. Your your Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Adam Cornell: exam didn't go how you wanted. How did you study? Didn't work, so let's find something else, right? So giving them those little tools that allows them, okay, if I'm in school, my test didn't go well, I gotta fix something. But we can apply that outside of school too. Right? So I have to tell these boys specifically, I'm here for you. I want you to win more than anybody in this school. because oftentimes we don't hear things like that. We don't have sports at our school. So those some of these boys and girls to that point, it's really difficult for them to navigate the high school experience without that. So the amount of relationship building that we need to do, I think, in our environment specifically, needs to amp up because there's that certain outlet that boys don't have. And it's a very high-flying school. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: So Mike Turner: So that that leads me to to wonder if we're asking the wrong questions. Like should the is it more what do you want to be instead of what do you want to become? Or is there a difference? Do we do we see and know the difference in those two? Adam Cornell: Think there's a big difference. What do you want to be feels more career-driven? Who who do you want to become feels more about how am I gonna exist in society? so two important questions I ask my students are to your point earlier, what do you want to study? I don't care what you want to major in right now. What do you want to study? What do you want to know more about? and then the other one is I just forgot it, it'll come back to me. what what Mike Turner: I like I like that though. I like what do you want to study. I think that's a good way Adam Cornell: Yeah. Mike Turner: of approaching it. Adam Cornell: Yeah. And a lot of kids people don't if whether we do or don't know what we want to do, I think another important question is what community do you want to serve? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm, I like that. Adam Cornell: You wanna serve elderly? Mike Turner: Mm. Adam Cornell: Do you wanna serve black? Do you wanna serve a lot if I if I can get kids to understand how important that is, because that's gonna affect how you show up every day, I think it would lead to probably deeper thoughts about who they wanna become and what they wanna be. Mike Turner: Yeah. I like that though. I I really like that. Cause I think one thing that I learned later on, it wasn't until grad school, I'll never forget my first class in grad school, our professor said, I'm gonna debunk everything that you've learned f for the past what is that sixteen years. And then we're like, what? And then he he has, You've been taught your whole career to memorize and repeat. Now Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: I'm gonna teach you to think. And Adam Cornell: Mm-hmm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: that was my first course. Him teaching us to truly unlock our brains, think, research, dive in, open up, have topics that weren't catered to you answering a certain way. And it was it was great. It was the most it's the best class I've ever taken. Yeah. Well, I think so starting that approach there for you, Adam, is is great. Adam Cornell: Yeah, I've and I've been my career my teaching career has really been col connected to higher level learning strategies. which Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Adam Cornell: supports the underdog, the first generation, the minority, like all the the low socioeconomic. so I love that. I love being able to ask those questions. One semester I taught a couple semesters I taught a critical thinking class. which just being able to teach kids to think that doesn't that's not necessarily tied to a subject, I think is invaluable. So I love that the prof you got that from the professor and you understood that. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah, that's that's that's totally in alignment with what it is that I have shifted towards because with the age variety that I get exposed to in my classrooms every semester, I'm finding more and more that individuals are not expressing themselves and thinking t that lends towards a solution. I'm like, okay, this is the problem. This is the scenario. How would you address this? Right? And so having them ha come up with conversation, either in small group work or just reply back to me, asking for volunteers. I think that the students are valuing that dialogue more so where it is that they have to stop. And then begin to think about this, right? So even if I have to rephrase the question or rephrase the scenario so it connects with them, it gives them an opportunity to sit with it. I I need you to sit with it because what we want to do is more so than you know get them ready for accomplishing the degree. Once they make that transition, when you get into your respective career no matter what it is. They're looking for individuals that are able to think about coming up with solutions to problems. Can we do that? Because the memorization is not gonna work. Right? Adam Cornell: Yep. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: I don't I've strayed away from the multiple choice exams. I I know you're going to present in terms of the communication, collaboration, but also having them build their confidence. Because I'm what I'm finding is that. with the variety of students in their respective ages, they have low confidence in their ability to be who they are and open to exploring and gaining that information to then go ahead and sell themselves as a competent individual for whatever role they're seeking to choose. And so Adam Cornell: Mm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: it's it's that's a developmental type process and yeah, and starting from the the younger ages is way well I don't wanna say way. Let me let me pause on that. Is a little more simpler than trying to teach someone older and more seasoned in Adam Cornell: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: life how to make that adjustment or make that pivot. Adam Cornell: Yeah. And I would Mike Turner: Yeah. Adam Cornell: I would even support what you're saying with the idea that Some of us adults weren't taught how to effectively I shouldn't say that. We didn't learn how to effectively problem solve. So when there is an issue, how do I think it through? Right? What's the conflict? What what what support systems do I have that can help me? Even in Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Adam Cornell: the adult world, I you know, I went getting my master was really challenging for me. real short, a tree fell on my house and I was displaced. And I the trauma that I experienced I didn't know I was capable of experiencing. Like my body reacting, the thoughts that I was having, like I felt so helpless. And I had a professor who was giving me all these resources, but I had I'd never been there before. So how do I think my way through this? And I got to a point where I just said Mike, I don't know, I need help. But that was something that was very tragic, something very extreme to get me to change my mind. Maybe that's what I needed. I needed a growth better growth mindset. But even the foundation that I have that I taught kids, the the stress and the trauma got in the way for me to being able to where do I even go from here? so again To your point both of your points, the memorization it's not it anymore. we have to have relationships with what we're doing, not necessarily who we're doing it with, but definitely what we're doing so we are less mechanical about our decisions. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If I could introduce Mike Turner: Yeah. So so Dr. Mya T. Bowen: do something real quick. So, Adam Cornell: Please. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: you know, in the news, everybody's talking about AI. What just got Adam Cornell: I was gonna say that. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: introduced to me, just got introduced to me is HI, human interaction. How well Adam Cornell: Mm-hmm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: are we doing in engaging with other individuals in this digitally affluent age that we find ourselves in, right? there's an emotional IQ, and then there is the you know, the IQ IQ. But where it is that stress plays a role, environment plays a role, there's a lot of different variables. I'm finding that individuals that are able to best manage their emotional IQ in order to lend more of their energy. Towars thinking things through. towards a solution and then reaching out to resources have have feared a little bit better because where it is that individuals who have y been really emotional and made decisions, sometimes those decisions are more permanent and detrimental. Whereas if they would have de stressed, emoted a little less, it could have changed how it is that those outcomes actually happened to land. Mike Turner: Yeah. And that that so now I that makes me want to ask the question too, 'cause obviously Adam, you're in a position and so are you, Maya, but you're not the only people that these individuals interact with on a day to day basis. So how can parents, mentors, friends, people we look up to guide without choosing for an individual? Adam Cornell: So one of the things I'm doing this year is I have a ton of nieces and nephews, but I have some that I'm closer to and I say I need y'all to take a picture together and put in my office to remind me that when students come to me I'm I need to talk to them like I talk to you. Right? So Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm. Adam Cornell: having building a relationship to where it's let's talk about what you mean to talk to. I I can give you some insight. I'm not gonna tell you what to do. Like I have I s I use those words. I'm not gonna tell you what to do. You get to think through this. So I think if if we're more intentional and because we're no longer a because I said so society, doesn't work on kids anymore. so I think we just have to ha make sure to Dr. Bone's point that we're incorporating that HI element into our relationships. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah. That's strong. It's Adam Cornell: And I don't I don't think that's different in dealing with adults either. Would you say that in your experience? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: I would say it's the same thing because there are certain circumstances that adults who are adulting come to campus with that are disrupting how they incorporate their academics. Right? They may have been adulting and an issue came upon while it is that classes were starting and now they're just absent. But then Not communicating that to professors or other individuals on campus that have particular type of resources to redirect them to get the assistance. If you don't say anything to me, I don't know. I'm not a mind reader, none of us are. So I let them know during their first week, communicate early because where it is that instead of waiting till midterm. We're almost Adam Cornell: Right. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: halfway done now. So the sooner you're able to communicate what it is or how it is that we can be of help, the sooner it is that we can direct you to the down the right pathway to get you into getting those resources that you may need. Adam Cornell: Yeah, when we're talking about the academic setting. I think it's interesting. Something that I've thought about is ask what kind of response would we get if we ask adults or parents of our students, what was your relationship to school like? What was your experience with school? Because what whatever we experience as kids, and then parents, we tend to put that on our kids. Right? As an older I Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yes they do. I agree with that. Adam Cornell: I went back to school, like I said, I think five years ago maybe. And so I think the way I moved was what was my due to my experience with education, like my relationship with education didn't stop after high school and college. I've been in it all this time. So when I had issues, I knew how to navigate that point of asking for help getting resources. So we have young men who are growing up without that supportive environment and they don't think teachers are rooting for them. When they get into some sort of college setting, there's there's those disconnects. And I think some of those disconnects could be explained by the relationship that they've already had with education. Not the only reason, but I think it's Dr. Mya T. Bowen: I'm gonna mm I'm gonna piggyback off of that because I think two it has to do with personality. it ties into their initial, you know, exposure in the the family structure. because that's where you first learn. But also personality wise, you you're gonna have those students that are going to have a sense of agency for themselves where they're gonna speak up, then you're gonna have those that say absolutely nothing so you don't know, and then you have everybody in the middle. Making I don't I don't particularly like to call it a safe space, but making a space for individuals to be able to communicate where it is that the goal is to think about what are our next steps. Okay? Yes, there's an issue, but what are our next steps? No judgment, Adam Cornell: Mm-hmm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: but Because we again this this normalization of perfection that is just very pervasive it's like if I don't say anything I suffer in silence, which is not good. And and it adds to the stress. And nobody's shoulders are broad enough to carry all that. And not until you get it out can you begin to actually lessen. the amount of pressure that you have building up inside of you. Case in point, I used to be one of those people. I call people who do that similar to me being walking volcanoes. Cause at some point they're gonna explode on the person that didn't even cause what has been internalized as internal pressure. And so you're erupting on individuals and they may have just said hello and but you become the Adam Cornell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: the offshoot of that volcanoic eruption and you it's like whoa wait pause Adam Cornell: Mm-hmm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: right and so getting comfortable with communicating period like like in bits and pieces baby steps but just knowing that in order to not internalize everything because nobody's walking around as a mind reader if you tell me I'm okay I'm taking it at face value. However, I'm an empath. So I already know you're lying to me. I know, I know something is going on. I Adam Cornell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: might not need to know all the details, but to get around that, I then have it my conversation to say, look, you need to talk to someone based on that situation. You let me know if I could be of assistance to you in doing that, because I don't need to know all the details. But I can assist in getting you to the individual that could be of assistance in that way. Again, it's a communication thing. You come to my office hours, I'm stuff talking to you like we're having this conversation right now because not only are they adults, and sometimes they are in high school, but mostly adults, they need to understand that you're not expected to have all the answers, but you need to think through what it is that your next steps are going to be. Adam Cornell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Y you said something that made me uncomfortable for a second, which I I love. you said and you didn't give an explanation. So I just thought myself thought my way through this. You said I don't like to call it a safe space. And in my mind I'm like, That's but that's what? Like I've my I'm discombobulated. And then I thought Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Right. Right. Adam Cornell: maybe it's maybe it's better that we call it a productive space. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Right. or a collaborative space, right? A collaborative space. Yeah. Adam Cornell: So I'm a I'm I'm providing a a productive space for you which looks like whatever it is you need it to look like. It might Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Right. Adam Cornell: be collaborative. It might be a safe space, right? you you got you got me thinking. Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: It might be supportive. It might be Yeah, like so because think about it. In your living room, you could consider it a safe space. However, your living room has windows. And so since it is that outside projectiles can literally come in, that then becomes an and or situation where what was a safe space when that projectile entered into your safe space, it is now no longer a safe space, right? So, looking at it in terms of an environment where it is that it is resource based, maybe, whatever that space needs to be, safe space is a mm but again, just being comfortable enough to communicate in a space where individuals who are open and receptive, non jump judgmental to get Adam Cornell: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: those next steps done done is what it is is all about. Adam Cornell: Yes. Mike Turner: Yeah. Yeah, I'm still sit here, sit back and let y'all keep talking. Sheesh. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Ha ha Adam Cornell: Good stuff. Good stuff. Mike Turner: All right. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: So Maya, that brings us to like your framework. You know, talk about Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm. Mike Turner: I want you to break this down for us because if you just looking at it, it's like what? But like help us understand. Your framework is based off obstacle to reflection to decision to pivot to opportunity. Break that down for us. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yes. So breaking it down, let's let's look at it as the five Ps of responsible pivoting. The five P's of responsible pivoting. P number one is pause. Don't react emotionally. Just pause for a second. P number two is to probe. You have to get into a space where you are comfortable with self and engaging in determining what actually is not working. What what's what where's those misses missing pieces in that? P number three is prepare. So self has to be willing to identify whether or not there are any financial, educational, family, or professional requirements involved in this or anything else that might be a particular type of variable. P number four is to pilot. Be open. Two testing the new direction before making the full move. Pilot it test it out. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, but you don't know until it is that you actually make a move towards doing something. So that's action-based. And then P number five is all about the pivot, where it is that you're making the transition deliberate and intentionally based on the circumstances. and environments that you find yourself in. Mike Turner: Okay, so that sounds great. I'm I'm gonna play devil's advocate here for you. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Absolutely. Mike Turner: sounds great. I'm a forty nine year old man who is in the who has accomplished a lot of stuff, but I don't necessarily like what I want to do, but I've also created some a a lifestyle that I want to maintain or that I have to maintain because my bills are here. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yep. Mike Turner: Where do Adam Cornell: Right. Mike Turner: I have time to go through that process? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: So I'm gonna throw some math out here and I'm gonna make this math work. So 24 hours a day, seven days a week, there's we all share the same amount of time, 168 hours in a week. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: The time is there, it's identifying where it is that you're gonna intentionally dedicate the time to go through that process. Right? At the point where adult adulting is full-blown. Coming with all types of variables, understanding how you want to get what you need to get accomplished is gonna require for you to have some U time. Do things always fall into you know place at the time that you're looking for it? No, but you have to trust the process and understand that in due time it will actually work out. Now I'm giving you the simplified version of it because it ain't Mike Turner: Right. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: easy. I know that because these words that are coming out of my mouth, trust me, I had to put them to the test. And so in an example that I will use personally. Weird is that I was going through my doctoral program, I ended up losing my full-time job and had to collect employment, unemployment. At that same time, I took on a small role at a neighborhood school, which, in hindsight, was beautiful from the perspective that it allowed for me to focus on completing what I needed to complete for that doctoral journey. Adam Cornell: Okay. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: and then put my applications out and talk to people and actually get to know myself better because I was stated to say the Adam Cornell: Okay. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: be s have s been seen as overqualified for things that I was applying for, which I that I I don't know how you could you want somebody qualified to do the job, but Altogether, basically that pivot at this particular adulting season that anybody should be in is gonna be requiring of a patience, a setting side of time, an identifying of who it is that you believe can be a resource at the point where you're seeking things. Is it easy? Nope. I wasn't handing a manual at birth that said my life would be. I don't think neither one of you were either. However, having had the life exposure It's a process. It's a process. Mike Turner: Yeah. Yeah, and I think I think for me and I think that's a scary part for men is that we get to the point of we don't even look at it as a pivot. We look at it as failure. dang, I'd have done all this and I failed. Then you got the whole John Maxwell aspect of life, you're failing forward. You if you're not you're not succeeding, it's impossible to succeed unless you fail. So you know, you learn from those those those failures to grow and get better is a matter of what are you willing to sacrifice and do to get where you actually truly want to be. So I that yields to next next question is when it when is when is pivot or growth and when you pivot is it just a nicer word for quitting. And I think that's that's the thing that men think they're they're scared, they failed or they're quitting or giving up. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Can can I chime in? So Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: here's where a good way that I convey failure. So I just take the first four letters, F A I L. Fail stands for first attempts and learning. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Learning what worked, w learning what didn't, and then in that there's the pivot where it is that you are identifying what will get you the types of results that you're seeking. I can't even put a timing on it because there Have been many failures, quote unquote, that have landed into products and services and outcomes that have been beneficial, but it doesn't happen overnight. Hence, going back to a six P which would be patience, patience with self, patience with others, patience with the technology, as it will, it's it's an entire journey. I myself learning. that in my time of unemployment underemployment that it was actually more beneficial for me not to be working full time so that it is that I can dedicate my time towards completing that educational aspect of my my life at that particular time but it was hard because my mortgage still needed to get paid and I was the only one that would be able to do that. But by faith and with some additional resources from time to time, I was able to do it. And so again, you sometimes leaning in is gonna be hard, but pivoting is actually not quitting. Pivoting is making that adjustment and understanding as many variables that you know that it will impact. And making as close of a good decision on it for self and for who it is that you may be responsible for and just moving forward. I like to look at us as being movements and not monuments, because you sit still too long and you're likely to have a pigeon perch on you. But we weren't designed that way. We're designed to move, think, and engage with others where it is that we can obtain good relationships, advice, dot dot dot. Anything it is that you may need is not always just internally for self, but you gotta be willing to I guess dismantle failure for it being the last and all things are gonna fa it It's failure is part of it. But you're failing your way towards the pathway that you need to be re- redirected and or will be redirected and as long as you really essentially don't quit, which is to do nothing at all. Mike Turner: Mm. Yeah. Adam Cornell: I I guess I've never I I think to me pivot, Mike, to your question doesn't it never has registered as failure to me. I think about it in terms of basketball, right? That's the first place I heard that term. You pick Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Adam Cornell: up your your dribble, you wanna go one way, you're trying to pass somewhere, it's not working, you pivot and find the space your passing lane that it is gonna work. So to me, pivot is realizing that something's not working, but I still have opportunity to create something else. So what I did to use the F word failed, but I still have other options. Right? And I think when we don't feel like we have options, that's when we get stuck. And then sometimes I think we go through this thing, well if I don't know, why is someone else gonna Right, 'cause I have all the answers, I know everything. I've been alive fifty years, I've got all this experience, and if I can't pull a solution, why should someone else help me or be able to do it better than I can? Tragic. Mike Turner: Yeah. No, that makes sense. Right. So we're gonna jump into this this qu another little quick question round. It's more of bad we're gonna call it bad advice hall of fame. All right. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah. Mike Turner: And let's let's look at it from a perspective of of of the male perspective. So if we can, from your experiences Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: too. That's what's n we're is we're not reading minds where just from your experiences you can answer these questions. So what's advice adults give teenagers? Adam Cornell: You need to know what you wanna do for the rest of your life. You need to figure it out. which is different than have a plan, 'cause plans can be adjusted. Right? But if I'm gonna send you a college to college and pay for it, you better know what you wanna do. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Worse advice would be You can't do X. Mike Turner: Yeah. Both of the pissed me off. Adam Cornell: Right. Mike Turner: worst career advice you've ever received. And you can take that p that's a personal one. Worst career advice you've ever received. Adam Cornell: Mine was one time I was working under a particular principal, I was teaching in coaching. And she had a background in coaching volleyball as well. And I I over I took this program over that was toxic. it was miserable. So in my way to making things better, you know, we were steadily winning, steadily winning, and then we got to a point where we were winning we won a district. And she told me first time they'd been to playoffs in ten years. She told me, you know, you could have went farther. at the end of the season, you need to be working so hard that you feel sick. You feel physically sick. This was probably ten years ago. Huh? So now I'm doubting all my hard work, myself work, because I'm not sick at the end of the season. I it didn't make sense to me. So I quickly had to process what was saying what was being told to me, and I s that's that's not me. That's not healthy for anybody, not just me. So I found I found an I I pivoted and I moved from I transitioned from that school. Mike Turner: It's up and left. Adam Cornell: Wow. Yep, sure do. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah. worst career advice is choosing to take on a a position that paid less. I bring up the monetary aspect of it from the perspective that for me it wasn't about the money. It was about the exposure and then seeing whether or not I even liked the position on the opposite side. So I started off as a staff accountant and then I transitioned into the academic side and became a program coordinator, assisting associate's degree level students and transitioning into the four year program and so I I wasn't gonna know whether or not I liked it or not until I made the decision. But what pushed me into that position was that I had had five supervisors within six months. and the last supervisor was n a candidate that we were the same age. I had more education than her. I actually had I wanna say more experience as well but at the at the point where I was interviewed and she was actually already the shoe in but she started micromanaging me so that became toxic so toxic to the point where I said I need more education to get out of this because I can't see myself doing this not with her At the helm it wasn't gonna work. So I had to make a decision for me and then, I pursued it. I stepped out on Faith and I pursued it. I was like, I made the right decision. Even though the dollar amount, salary wise was gonna be less. I I was willing to d the bet on myself and I I figured that the money would come later. Mike Turner: Well, gotcha. All right. So something your parents said that sounded ridiculous but makes perfect sense now. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: not all households are the same. I didn't get that when I was a kid. that just a little context related to that, you go into your friend's house and they do things completely different. Something very subtle, taking off shoes at the door versus walking through the house with your shoes, something like that. yeah, that type of thing. Adam Cornell: Mine I think was more about Not necessarily the friends that I chose, but maybe looking deeper into the families from which they come from, which I thought was rude and judgy, but now it makes a lot of sense. where does this child come from? What what is their belief system? Doesn't mean I can't be friends with them, but understand what they're being exposed to. It looks different than our household. And it may not align Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Adam Cornell: with what we believe in. Mike Turner: Yeah. My mom used to tell me all the time, Enjoy being a kid now. And as a kid, I'm trying to I'm trying to find a job, Adam Cornell: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: that's a big one. That's a big one. Mike Turner: I'm trying to earn some money, I'm trying to do it Adam Cornell: Try and grow up. Mike Turner: all the such like I'm trying to grow up and my mom was like, Enjoy being a kid now. And I didn't Adam Cornell: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Turner: understand it. I'm like, Why? I'm on boy, I wish I would have enjoyed it a little more now. Adam Cornell: Right. I'm Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah, back with Adam Cornell: trying become this man. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: a Adam Cornell: I'm trying to become Mike Turner: Yeah. Adam Cornell: this man who's dependable, responsible, and independent, Mike Turner: Right. Adam Cornell: and you're telling me don't do that? Yeah. Mike Turner: Right. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Back in the day when I was young, I'm not a kid anymore. Adam Cornell: Right. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Sometimes I sit and wish I was a kid again. Mike Turner: So now s now Adam Cornell: I need Mike Turner: the exact opposite of that, say something that they said that still makes absolutely no sense. Adam Cornell: Aye, this tough. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm. Adam Cornell: I I mine maybe goes along the same line. I one of the one of my parents was just I feel like so adamant that who I hung around with was perfect, even though I wasn't. like I feel like tried to dissuade me from being friends with more people. Like I was a very social kid and I loved being around people. and I can be around people without being influenced to make the decisions they were making. So I guess maybe having a little more belief in me or letting me try things maybe a little bit more. I feel like as I became older and on my own, I was kind of paralyzed from making decisions because I wasn't necessarily supported in some of the decisions or wasn't treated a particular way when decisions I made didn't work out. and I think that stifled me a little bit. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: So for me it it was, you know, so my mom's a baby boomer and so, you know, they have a different type of mindset. And I have baby boomers in my classes at times. it was more so looking at money as being the end all be all as to why Adam Cornell: Mm-hmm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: it is that I'm going to work. And like I I wasn't feeling that. Well, I had to learn that I couldn't invest my energy. on that 'cause all money ain't good money. where the environments are toxic, where it is that maybe you've outgrown it and you do have aspirations for something different in terms of exposure. And so it made n it made no sense once I got to the point where I was seeing how going for the money was not in alignment where where I wanted to be in life as an up and coming professional and so I'm I'm good now, no. I understand a lot more. Mike Turner: Wow. The one thing that I'm gonna go in a in a completely different direction from both of y'all. Adam Cornell: Good, good. Mike Turner: whippings and they said I'm doing this because I love you. Makes makes if you think about that makes utterly no sense at all. I'm gonna inflict pain on you physically because I love you. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah, that makes no sense, but it does tie back to the does the Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: the slavery, master slave relationship that they latched into and carried that forward. 'cause I'm the type I was the type of child you could talk to me. We don't we won't we don't you won't have to lay your hands. You don't have to lay your hands on me. We could have a conversation. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: But, you know, one way I got around that, me and my brother devised a scheme where it is that the belt that used to be attached to the suitcase set that she had, we threw all of them away and we pretty much, you know, got away with not really getting those type of chastisements, so to speak. Mike Turner: Gotcha, I gotcha. Adam Cornell: I've I've I've had the conversation a lot recently about generational trauma and that's exactly what you were talking about, Dr. Brown, like passing down our ways through through the generations. one of my sisters and I talk about that. Like she's raising her child in a in a way that she was not raised so that the traumas don't spread. Like we have to recognize them and stop. so I think that's that's definitely powerful what you brought up. Mike Turner: Yeah. It's a lot of stuff and I understand what I had a conversation with my father, you know, and when you think about it from this perspective, you know, as parents, you none of us are prepared for it, parenting. We Adam Cornell: Right. Mike Turner: only do what we know what to do based off how we were brought up. My father was raised in the Jim Crow South. So it's like, you know, he was he learned how to survive. Adam Cornell: Right. Mike Turner: And and and that era was a you provide and you survive. So that's what he knew. So that's the that's what he could teach us. Adam Cornell: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: And so it's not necessarily wrong, it's just that he did the best with with the information and environment that he he had. Adam Cornell: Mm-hmm. An experience, yeah, for sure. Mike Turner: Yeah. something young people won't understand until life teaches them. Adam Cornell: Whoa Mike. There's so many things. Mike Turner: Ha ha. Adam Cornell: So many things. I I I think one one thing I could say is accountability when you're on your own. So when you're in high school, yes, we want you to be accountable for your actions, but your parents are also there with you. When we went to college, some of the dumb stuff I did. I had to be accountable and I couldn't include anybody else. And then I had to just learn through those errors and man, it was tough. It was tough. But definitely I think accountability is is something that you could include in this conversation. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Yeah. I think I agree with that. I wanna take on, you know, understanding the I guess the financial systems that we live in, right? And and how credit and you know, taking on the adulting aspect what that really is going to encompass that tags into that accountability. Cause here's the thing, I haven't had a person knock on my door yet to pay my my rent. Mm mm. Mm mm. That's all on me, right? Adam Cornell: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: my parents can't help me. That's on me. And so a it ties back to enjoy being a kid while you're a kid 'cause there's a Adam Cornell: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: lot coming down the pike for a very long time period. in terms of this world or slash journey of adulthood. Adam Cornell: Yeah, and and that's Mike Turner: Yeah. Adam Cornell: fiscal responsibility, right? So most Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm. Adam Cornell: teenagers I d I want a job or I need to get a job. I I gotta pay for eating out or or maybe my cell phone bill. But then also we have kids that are very are are learning this lesson way too early and are providing for their own households so the lights don't get turned off. or that they can't Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Adam Cornell: yeah, I got that light on my face. So I as much as we talk about kids not being fiscal responsible or or learning it later on, there are a lot of kid teenagers who go who are going through it now. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: I was one Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: of those. I was one of those. Yeah, definitely was one of those. Adam Cornell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: quick story. My mother got injured when she was about twenty-six years old, permanently disabled, Adam Cornell: Mm. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: newly divorced. she had to raise my brother and myself. I was three at the time. She was he was one, about to turn two. So she taught us a lot of the life skills that a lot of lot of our friends knew nothing about. We did the grocery shopping. We went and paid the bills in terms of, you know, money orders. All all kinds of different things that we learned because of what was unexpected but she knew that she needed to get us prepared because she her mobility was stunted and in getting certain things done. So we learned early on how to go through the process of handling that that type of thing. So I've been responsible and accountable for a lot at a young age, just based off of that that life be life in scenario right there. So I I I know. and I think to add to that, weird is that our students w if they get to the point where they feel comfortable with us and then we're able to share our humanness with them, they will understand that they're not the only ones that are going through certain types of things that are not relatable. Right? Adam Cornell: Right. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: They look at the po the quote unquote polished us. they're no perfect. Don't Adam Cornell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: do that. I am not no, I am still learning. I've gone through some things. But I think when it is that they feel comfortable to relate to us, that's where we can actually get them to be comf get a little bit more comfortable with themselves so that they can express and then get the assistance that they need. Because otherwise again, just like being a walking volcano, human volcano, taking it all in, eventually you're gonna explode. You're gonna erupt. and it doesn't bolde well in terms of how productive you could be in certain areas if you're just boggling all in. Adam Cornell: Uh-huh. Mike Turner: That makes sense. Alright, we're gonna switch roles real quick here. So we're gonna end off with these two two a question for each one of you. So Adam, there's a grown man listening who wishes somebody like you had gotten to him when he was seventeen. He had made decisions he regrets and maybe he didn't have guidance. What do you want that man to understand today? Adam Cornell: the old adage or or the old Aaliyah song, age is age is just a number. Right? So whatever it is you're dealing with in the present, it doesn't matter how old you are. It matters about what qualities you have that you can that you can get through this. Great example. My school that I teach at is we're located on a community college. So our kids come to high school every day on a college campus. I was walking them to our P to their PE class, which is a college class, and there was a guy in there. he eventually just told me, I saw you helping people, and you just had this look that I felt like I felt comfortable talking to you. he's in his mid to late twenties. He's got two kids. And he literally said, I just I said, Well, what do you want to do? What kind of plans you got? He said, I I don't under I don't get that. The importance of making a plan. I don't have people in my corner. I'm living in my car. The mother of my fo kids don't even know she doesn't know that I'm not living in a home. he just felt so defeated. And by the time we were finished, he felt like he understood that life didn't have to stay where it is right now. And as long as he's willing to make those changes or or or seek help, get to the right resources. he became more open to that versus I can't I need to figure this out on my own. I'm not figuring out on my own and I'm frustrated. By the end of that conversation, man, it was like I wanted to tell the guy, I love you, man. Keep going. I didn't say I didn't use the words I love you, but I said, yo man, you got it. It's in there. You have it in you. If you're determined enough to do it, blah blah blah blah blah. Right? So Again I say it doesn't matter what age you are, it matters what qualities you have or what qualities you're willing to grow to get yourself through this situation. Mike Turner: That's awesome. I love that. Love that. All right, for you, Maya. there's a young man listening who's terrified that one wrong decision is going to ruin his future. What do you want him to understand about the ability to pivot? Dr. Mya T. Bowen: So the ability to pivot is all about being intentional and knowing that it's a decision that you're you're making. It is not the end all be all. Right? So we make decisions, tons of decisions, every single day. And some of are are good, some not so good and you got everything in between. However, it ain't over yet. So keep going. And I would close with, I see you and I know you got it. So alongside Adam, letting individuals understand that they have what they need inside of them, and now they are along the journey of getting to where this moment in time is really shaping and developing them to get Them to that next phase of their life. Just don't quit. You can't Mike Turner: Yeah. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: get to the goal if you quit. Okay? Adam Cornell: I so I have this canvas I have this Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Adam Cornell: canvas in my office. when you walk in, it it's a it's a big like a mixtape. It looks like a mixtape. And on it it says, Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Mm-hmm. Adam Cornell: pause if you must, but don't stop. So right along to what Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Nice, nice. Mike Turner: I like that. Adam Cornell: you were saying. Don't quit, don't quit, don't quit. Mike Turner: I like that, I love that. I'll end by saying, where you started doesn't have to determine where you finish, but a pivot isn't running from who you are, as we said earlier, it takes everything that a man learned and deciding intentionally that who you're going to become next. And I think that's the key. We I kinda have this whole thing of like we said earlier, using the word failure wrong. Right? Yeah, most of us, if we just reframe it, yes, you weren't able to go that direction. But if you're not trying, you're you're truly failing. So let's try, let's pivot. This is what's gonna be enough best. So let's not look at look at it as I'm quitting as a as a negative aspect. Let's make the pivots and probably most of us probably make more pivots in life than we than we ever thought we'll make. 'Cause we're constantly adjusting and pivot to get to ultimately who we want to become and how we want to serve our community. So Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Absolutely. Adam Cornell: Sure, for sure. Mike Turner: With that said, I appreciate you guys jumping on here and having this good old conversation. It's good. So until next time, we'll holler at you later. Adam Cornell: Yeah. Yeah, Doctor Bowen, it was nice to meet you, Mike. I love you. Let's keep talking, man. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: You as well. You as well, Adam. Mike Turner: For sure, for sure. Dr. Mya T. Bowen: Thank you, Mike. Adam Cornell: Right.