Latest / Ducks Unlimited Podcast / Ep. 612 – Why We Hunt: New Research Sheds Light on What Motivates Us

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Ep. 612 – Why We Hunt: New Research Sheds Light on What Motivates Us · Ducks Unlimited Podcast

• Jerad Henson: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. My name is Dr. Jared Henson, and I'm going to be your host today in our beautiful new studio here. I am joined in this awesome new studio by a bunch of people, and I'm happy to have this. So we have co-host Katie Burke over here. Derek Christians, guest co-host for today. Also a campus waterfowl. We've got Dr. Mike Brasher, co-host. Mike Brasher: What's up, Jared? What's up, Jared? I got talking to the microphone now, don't I? Jerad Henson: And Matt Harrison, co-host of the podcast. Happy to have all the co-hosts in studio with us today. It's going to be a lot of fun. We're going to test out some new technology, video, as we can see now. And we have an awesome guest with us today. We have Rob Southwick from Southwick Associates. And our topic today is going to be on what motivates us to hunt. And Rob, do you mind giving a little intro on yourself and kind of your background? Rob Southwick: Sure, sure. We kind of liken ourselves to be the data geeks, if you will, the hunting community. I'm also the sport fishing community, but for about 35 years now, we specialize in understanding what it takes to get people in the outdoors to hunt, to fish, why they participate, often why they quit, how to get them back in. So we do a lot of work with state fish and wildlife agencies to help maintain participation so they have the funding to affect conservation and give us greater hunting and fishing opportunities in the future. We do a lot of work too for a lot of the common brands you may know in the hunting and fishing field, help them understand how to serve the customers and what people really want when they go outdoors and how to make it a better day. Jerad Henson: Awesome. Yeah, I mean, well, when we were going through some of this, and I'll give a little background on kind of why I wanted to go down this road, and it was kind of because I'm a public land duck hunter, and you see all kinds of kinds when you public land hunt. And you can tell that people get different things from hunting, right? Some people are in it to be out there just outside and then outdoors. Some people need a limit of birds. Some people want to drive their boat real fast. etc. And all those things kind of came to mind and I kind of got in that idea of like, I wonder what it is. What's the common thread about what drives us to hunt? And I started talking around with people in the office, talked to Mike, and we started trying to figure out kind of this idea about, you know, what that looks like. And then, you know, if you go to the old literature for R3 or hunter ed, you come up with the stages of the hunter, right? And how that progression happens. So as we were diving into it, we came across Rob and Rob's work. And so we really wanted to get at a better idea on this podcast about kind of what is it that motivates us to hunt? What makes a gratifying hunt for us? You know, because that's different than the actual motivation itself in some cases. And then can those motivations change? And that was kind of the idea I really wanted to and do y'all have any other questions that y'all may want to jump into a little bit that you'd like to see or are interested in? Mike Brasher: No, I don't. Not at the moment, Jared. I think we just kind of see how this goes. Yeah, it's an interesting topic and I'm already thinking about I can tell you my motivations have changed. I can already tell you the answer to that is. Jerad Henson: Yeah, I think so. And I think Rob has some really cool data. And that was the cool thing, was to bring in an expert in the field that can actually show this. And so, as I mentioned before, the HunterEd literature and the R3 literature talks about those stages of a hunter, the five different stages, and somewhere I have them all written down. Mike Brasher: Did we define R3? Did you say what R3 was? I didn't. I don't know if we did that, but we get all into our acronyms and so forth. Jerad Henson: Recruitment. retention and re-engagement. Reactivation or re-engagement. Yeah, that's right. I'm pretty passionate about this stuff. I've done some like university hunts when I was in an academic setting and things like that. So I really, really am interested in how do we get people into the field and how do we keep people out there and get enjoyment for everybody. Mike Brasher: Maybe one place to start, maybe you're planning on doing this, but the idea of like, why is this so important? We talked about R3, recruitment, retention, reactivation. Why is that so important? Are you going to kind of cover that? Jerad Henson: Yeah, I was going to talk briefly, but I was going to let Rob do a little bit more from the data he's had. But I mean, hunter numbers are dropping. I think we all know that, right? And when hunter numbers drop, we start to see some issues. Obviously, our conservation system is set up to be funded by sportsmen and women out there. And when those numbers go down, the dollars go down. Also, our political pool goes down. And so it's really important to maintain that, to maintain our conservation model. So I think those are the big two. Does anybody have anything else they want to add? Rob, would you like to add anything to that? Rob Southwick: A couple of thoughts on there. Some people sometimes really aren't concerned by that. But even if you don't hunt, if you don't fish, you tend to still want wildlife out there as part of what makes this country great. And most Americans who don't hunt fish don't realize that it's the sportsmen and women who are paying the bill for conservation through those licensed dollars and excise taxes. So it's critical we keep that participation up there and keep the awareness going on there, because without that, then where's conservation going to be funded from? And if it's going to be funded from other circles, if at all, Then we may not even have the right to hunt fish as often as we'd like to because funding will be coming from other sources. Jerad Henson: That's right. And I think we've looked at in the past, and there are not we, but there's been folks that have looked at it in the past on other funding methods or opportunities, and none of them gain traction from what I understand. Hunters are just much more participatory when it comes to giving Rob Southwick: Dollars to hunters and fishermen we wanted everyone of our future generations who want for friends who want for ourselves and we're willing to put money in there and we want more opportunities in the future. So we're willing to put our money where our mouth is. We wish other folks would help out. We welcome other funding sources, obviously. But right now, we're footing the bill and we're loving the outdoors and want to keep other people loving it too to keep these opportunities available. Mike Brasher: Rob, how much work has your group done over the years in helping states try to figure out alternative funding models? And have you had any sort of seeds of success? Rob Southwick: There have been some, but they've been very targeted, very limited, nowhere near the scale that we need. There have been funding programs where they looked in the past, like, you know, we have an excise tax on firearms, ammunition, fish and tackle, archery gear, motorboat fuels, that is the second largest source of conservation funding in the United States. And those funds have to be dedicated for hunting, fishing, outdoor activities. It has to be, they can't be managing species that you can't hunt, for example. So trying to find funds for those other species, they've not been able to successfully have excise taxes applied to birdwatching, for example. Politically, it just hasn't been possible. But there have been some programs that take funding from, for example, offshore energy extraction, oil and gas drilling offshore. And part of those funds have been dedicated to fish and wildlife management and habitat that benefits both game species and non-game species. But even then, if we're going to be shifting as a society away from oil and gas, say 50 years from now, to become more electric alternative energies, we're going to lose those funding, the funding sources also. So it's a small amount of money. It's long term is also uncertain. Right now, hunting and fishing is the surest way to keep conservation effective on the ground. Jerad Henson: Yeah, I know we've done a lot of work and a lot of publicity around duck stamp and things like that and what those dollars go to. And of course, that's a huge moneymaker for waterfowl conservation and just wildlife in general. I kind of want to shift gears just a second and kind of see about just talking about the old methods of talking about what motivates us, the stages of a hunter. Rob Southwick: The background of this one here is interesting. There's a couple of outstanding professors up in Wisconsin back in the early eighties who loved the outdoors, loved hunting. And this is a common question. I know everybody's realizing, Hey, I don't really necessarily hunt the same reason as I did when I was younger. And what we found over time is very complicated. topic, how do people evolve and what they like to do and their motivations. And like we usually do as humans, we try to take a complex topic and make it real simple, sometimes oversimplify it. That's what happened in this case. And so we have in that graphic there, the assumption was after talking to a very limited group, They talked to about a thousand deer hunters and waterfowl hunters in Minnesota only 98% male. Nothing gets you Wisconsin. Nothing against hunting that part of the world. I love it up there. It's too cold. But it's outstanding hunting country and great people. But that's not necessarily representing all hunting across the US. Plus now, I know we have more than just old white guys who hunt. And so what happened with this study, they determined that when you first start hunting, step number one is the shooting stage. When you first go out there, you just want to pull the trigger. Remember my son was that way. I just could not get him to calm down and say, okay, you can pass him the dove, you can pass him that lizard. I know you want to pull the trigger, but just wait, just wait. That's when you first start. After a little bit of time, you get a little bit more experience, you move into the limiting out stage. This means, okay, I've gotten a few squirrels. I've gotten out there a few times. Now I want to go get my limit. That makes a great day. That's my motivation. Then you should get a little bit more experience. It could be one more season. It could be five more seasons down the road. You're like, okay, I'm getting pretty good at this. I want to challenge myself more. I want to go to get that big trophy buck. So you go to the trophy stage. It could be that 10-inch bearded gobbler. You want that trophy stage. And then once you have a few of those, you're like, okay, I'm getting there. I'm feeling more confident now. I want to try it differently. I'm going to use different methods. I want to try different species. You want to broaden your ability and your skills. That's what they call the method stage. And then after that, you hit into the sportsman stage. That's kind of the grand old wise hunter, if you will. And what we found out, that question about this evolutionary path, is it too simple? Does it really explain the arc-free process? What led to the study we did that determined the real motivation of why people hunt? And so we did the study, we surveyed thousands, about 4,200 people across the U.S., and we found out that path is generally wrong. It's just wrong. Jerad Henson: Yeah, just from looking at that, I think all of us here know guys that are just starting out or girls that are just starting out that probably could care less to ever, you know, limit out. They just like being out there. But then there's also guys, the old guard that, you know, 60s and 70s, that they're going to shoot a limit of ducks. Period. Right? That's what they want to do. And so that natural progression doesn't line up. And I definitely could see that. I think there probably is a little bit of some progressions as you alluded to. Did y'all have kind of that same idea as far as doing Hunter Ed and get a little bit of training on that? Derek Christians: I always remember kind of just hearing about it, even just through, I don't know, just being involved with the industry and things like that. And then with Campus Waterfowl specifically, we highlight collegiate waterfowl hunters and researchers and things. And we're even guilty of kind of, even on our podcast, discussing the progression of a hunter. And I hunt with probably 60 students around the country in a given year. And in college, it's kind of like a big melting pot pretty much of these different like these different stages of hunters, at least what we were used to calling them at least. So I'm really curious and learning more about kind of where this is all going to next, I guess. Jerad Henson: Yeah. Yeah. I know that was, yeah, it was kind of when I started doing kind of a deep dive on this and talking to people, they were like, it's not as simple, as easy as they used to think. Mike Brasher: And it's not as linear. Jerad Henson: It's not. It's never. Yeah. And we'll show the figure in a little bit, because it's my favorite figure from all of Rob's research, the path that hunters take as they mature or they change. But before we do that, I kind of want to step back and kind of let you talk about, you mentioned that there was a need for new research. Obviously, this was a very biased study. And we needed to do a bigger work and broader work. And so can you talk about the methods that you imparted? You did talk, you said there were 4,200 survey. Correct. Recipients. Can you talk a bit more about those methods on the news survey and kind of how you design that? Rob Southwick: Cheryl, I'll start with how the reasons that led to the research of those methods. You mentioned the R3 need around the country, whether it's the official wildlife agencies, whether it's organizations such as DU and others who are actively engaged in recruiting new participants. A lot of money is invested in those activities. And we have to be smart with those dollars. We want to recruit as many new hunters as we possibly can for every dollar spent. And we know the basic marketing premise is not everybody is the same. That's why when you go to the store, when you go to the cereal aisle, I mean, look how many choices of Cheerios you have. Not to mention all the other breakfast cereals out there. Honey Nut Cheerios, Frosted Cheerios, Plain Cheerios, Chocolate Cheerios, whatever you want to name it. Because they recognize people have different choices and different preferences. And they recognize people will change their choices and preferences over time. So when you get tired of Plain Cheerios instead of going to the competitor's product, General Mills has frostage areas for you, or whatever it is that you like. So in the R3 movement, in the community, we're talking, are we making a mistake here? Are we trying to guide people down a path that may or may not exist? Is it really this simple? Is it really that true? Because think about it, if you're trying to pull someone down the path, you recruited a new hunter, let's say we all happy we're sharing that we created a new hunter and that's great. Now we've got to keep them hunting. And so we lead them down this path and try to help them evolve. But they may get to one of those steps and say, that's not me. You're trying to get me to do something I don't want to do. At that point, we run the risk of them taking on some other recreation. So maybe we lose a hunter, which means we lose a contributor to conservation to another activity. Maybe they're just going camping, not taking firearms with them for hunting season. So that led to the study. We had to find out, is this really true? And then what are the motivations if it's not true? And to do that, we also knew we needed to have a good national picture, not just one or two states like that original effort. So to get a large sample size, we figured, and also be able to break it out by gender to see if there's changes based on how people look, which is another side story here we can come to. We realized we needed over 4,000 surveys. We collected 4,200 surveys, and we went to the general public. Because if you build a survey, say, to an organization like DU or a local rod and gun club, you end up surveying the really avid people. The other ones are really joint, but we know many of our customers are not as avid as we may be here on this discussion. So we surveyed the general public, just made a lot of contacts to find people who actually hunted. So a statistically reliable picture, we'll avoid all the statistical talk, but it's a solid sample. We did it late last year over the holidays to early through January of this year, so fresh results. We did a lot of statistical work there. We got a lot of good stats people on staff and came up with these results that I just find fascinating. I like marketing and I find it really neat. Jerad Henson: Yeah. So you found that these were not necessarily natural stages or progressions per se, but you described them as personas. Rob Southwick: Segmentation research is the approach we've taken. What that means is that any consumer base can be segmented. Again, you can segment the cereal market to those who like plain Cheerios and frost Cheerios, chocolate Cheerios, and hope you're not getting hungry. But you can segment people based on what they want. In this case, when you're trying to get someone to do an activity like hunting, you segment them based on their motivations. But what is that core thing inside of them that says, man, you need to go hunt? And what's that little click, that little trigger mentally that says, you got to go hunting? And that's what varies. So if we can understand what that trigger is in people, maybe we can get more of them to go off and get more people to go out there and try hunting. Jerad Henson: And I think that will definitely also help us shape how we talk about hunting, right? And communicate that, especially that's something super helpful for us in this field as well. Well, do you mind introducing those four personas? Rob Southwick: Sure, sure. Let's think, go in the best order. The one I like the most to talk about, because these are the most fun ones to speak with, is Enthusiastic Hunter. It's about 29% of all, roughly almost a third of all of our hunters that this group called Enthusiastic Hunter. And this is a common entry point into hunting for people for a start. Demographically, they tend to be a little bit younger than other hunters, but The enthusiastic hunter, you can't miss this person. You pull up behind them at a traffic light, you know that's an enthusiastic hunter in front of you. The stickers on the vehicle, type of vehicle, you know, is that big up front with the browning sticker on a classic there, whatever it might be. They wear camo to church, you know that they're a hunter. They talk about it. They want to share their experiences. They're posting it everywhere. They will spend money. What they want to do is they want to pull the trigger often. They said that to us in the survey directly. That's what we learned is that they fit that early stage to some degree as they want to get out. But at the same time, too, they want to try different types of methods of hunting. So even though they're new, they've already jumped ahead on that path four steps up, saying, not, I just want to go hunting. Put me in the stand for a buck. If I want to be in the boat for waterfowl, I want to go out in the spring for turkey. I want to try quail hunting. I want to try dove hunting. They're all in. They're all in. And so they're the ones that are quick to join, whether it's clubs, organizations. They're a good group for that, but they're a fun one. Mike Brasher: So Rob, I have a question if I could interrupt you here. So that's describing this group, but is that really what's motivating them? I'm kind of trying to figure that out. What is it that makes them enthusiastic about wanting to hunt? And is it important to go that deep to kind of figure out how it is that we message and engage either those people or target other folks that we think may become interested in hunting because they share that same Persona. Rob Southwick: You must be a psychologist by training. That's a great question. That's that you're digging down. You're pulling layers down and talk about it. Get down to court. There's there's several major reasons, factors in there. Part of it's social, but really is that can I take care of myself? Am I capable? I want to challenge. I want to get out there. Can I do this? I've seen other people do. I want to be that person also. That's the number one thing. And that's why they'll tend to, we'll get on to the other regressions, but they want to say, can I do that? Can I take care of myself? Can I feed myself? And then also that social bonding, especially when you're younger, social bonds are really important in one's life. And when your friends are doing it, it's like the ticket, hunting is a ticket to the social group. So, those are the two major core reasons that drive this segment. Mike Brasher: Yeah, that's helpful. Jerad Henson: Thanks. Yeah. And that's a really good point to kind of talk about that, especially since we're on a social platform right now. So, what are the… So, that was the first persona. Right. Second. Rob Southwick: Those would be, I'll in no particular order, the tranquil hunters, about 27% of our hunters And I'm bringing them up next because they're pretty much at the opposite end than the enthusiastic hunter. Tranquil hunter is probably more like me at this stage in life. I used to be more, you know, gung-ho enthusiastic at one point. But the tranquil hunter tends to be a little bit older. They just want to relax. It doesn't mean they have to bag game. Of course, they want to, but they won't be hunting in the first place. But seeing wildlife, seeing nature in action, if you will, being a part of it, and relaxing, getting away from the daily pressures is more important. So they're really not into the social aspect so much. They're not into pulling the trigger. They're just as fine if they don't pull the trigger all day, unless they miss, you know, they want a good shot of those there. they just want to get away and escape. So, digging down the psychology, everybody needs their quiet place, if you will. It's kind of a term du jour for that. For a lot of people, getting out in the field is the place to just sit back, reflect, breathe deep, and recharge oneself. That's the tranquil hunter. I don't want to give the impression it's just all old guys, older guys like me. We have a lot of younger people in this segment too, but trying to be very general is very complex. personas, if you will, but sort of giving you generalities, kind of stereotyping them, but that's the best way to look at them. Mike Brasher: I'm going to bet Matt Harrison is not the tranquil hunter at this stage. I'm not. He's tranquil over here beside me right now, but he is not a tranquil hunter. That is not me. Rob Southwick: That's for sure. What's funny about the tranquil hunter is that in all the segments and the surveys, we put a question there at the end, just asking them, like, if there's one thing you could have, a new product that would make your hunting experience better. What would it be? And usually, you know, like, the enthusiastic hunters, like, I want tighter groupings, I want, so they want a better scope. In reality, they need more practice with the range, in my opinion, but there are good scopes out there. But the tranquil hunter says, I want things that help me relax even more. I'm like, whoa, what could that be? So the five-gallon bucket. Jerad Henson: More comfortable. More comfortable chair, hammock. Yeah. Rob Southwick: How do you get a recliner on your back while in the dove field? Mike Brasher: I think tree stands nowadays kind of fit them all. Katie Burke: Yeah, they have heaters and everything. Rob Southwick: They fall asleep and miss your opportunity, but you gotta be careful there. We had some fun in the office talking about the Tranquil Hunter Company Incorporated. What would they be making out there? Jerad Henson: Yeah, I don't know. I think some of us are moving in that direction. Speak for yourself, Jared. Don't worry, I still like to bag birds. And there was a couple more personas, and when we get done going through the personas, I think it's going to be fun, because we did fill out a little bit of the survey stuff, so we'll kind of get to talk about where we all fall into this and see what it actually looks like. Katie Burke: I want us to guess what we are before he tells us. Jerad Henson: Oh, really? Well, let him go to the other two personas and then we'll guess. Rob Southwick: Yeah, you all have a better sense of discussion. I look forward to that. So the other two personas are the provider and the social hunter. The provider is one who hunts for the meat to bring home food. It's not necessarily what you all probably talked about before the local for movement. So that's certainly a subset of it for the our psychologist friend here. I just work with a lot of people that need… No, I'm just kidding. The provider's not looking to prove him or herself. The provider wants… It's not even… They say they don't hunt for the fun of it. It's not a recreation. For them, it's something that they do. It's satisfaction. So just like your satisfaction you may have when you fix the fence in the back of the yard. I did that. I took care of myself. I fixed my own car. I don't need a garage. I built the own addition to my house. The provider says, you know, I provide my own food. I don't need to go buy meat in the store. And so it's something I look forward to. They often hunt by themselves. They're not looking out there to make it a social activity. They're not going to go to deer camp and all these other activities. They just want to go out there and whether it's waterfowl, whether it's deer, whether it's upland game, they do tend to prefer the larger game species, probably to get more pounds per effort. And that's what they're trying to do is fill the freezer. So even though they can be a more experienced hunter, they still like to fill their bags, their tickets, their tags, which was the second step in that path. So they can be very advanced. They're still sitting back there on the second on the second step. So for them, they'll talk deer hunting with you, but it's not going to be their passion and all they're going to do is meet their friends at night over a beer and talk about deer hunts. They'll talk about it just like a discussion about how to fix your tractor. That's how they see hunting. And this is a pretty significant group. 25% of our hunters fit that category. It is. And something to think about, because even the next one, the social hunter, it's not their lifestyle. When you hear people talking about hunting, usually it's that enthusiastic hunter that you're hearing. And so many other people will say, yeah, yeah, I like hunting too, but I'll leave that discussion to y'all. I'm going back here and doing something else. I love hunting, but you know, it's just, I'm not going out of my way to spend my free time talking about it. But they do care about it and they'll still get involved and contribute and be part of organizations, but they're just not going to go there to just talk and celebrate hunting. Katie Burke: Hold on. I wonder if the reason we think it's less than that is because we're at duck's limit and waterfowl hunting because it's a much smaller game. Mike Brasher: Because you typically don't think of waterfowl as the, yeah. Katie Burke: Fill your freezer sort of situation. Yeah. Mike Brasher: Yeah. Some people do. Katie Burke: I mean, some people, but I don't think it's, I bet if you were in a different organization, like if you have a different thing. Jerad Henson: Yeah. Yeah. Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation or something like that. Rob Southwick: It seems to do a lot of these activities, it's sometimes harder to find people who might fit the tranquil hunter or the provider in an organization like yours, because you live about it, think about it, talk about it year round. It's hard not to get excited about it and plan ahead and make trips and social outings around it. I worked for years in an organization, Sport Fishing Institute. We talked fishing all day. So we were doing the weekends, we got together and we fished. I loved it. Y'all did a great spot. Good spot there. Mike Brasher: Our last one, go ahead. Well, I was just going to say kind of to the point that Katie raised, can a person, yeah, I guess they probably could. They go between these different personas kind of based on where they are, who they're around, what they're pursuing, or is it dependent upon the other direction? Rob Southwick: I don't know. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's something we could talk about later in Spaghetti Bowl, but a quick example is meat. But you can change personas in the course of one year. Now, I'm normally a tranquil hunter because where I live, it's mostly pig hunting where I am, and some deer love turkey hunting, and I've gotten mine. So for me, it's to get away from the daily stress, workload, and everything. But once all my friends are called, say, I got a great idea. I got dibs on a great duck hunt here. It's out of state. Do you want to go? Mike Brasher: I'm like, heck yeah, I'm in. I'm in. You have people call and invite you to go on a duck hunt, man. I need to work that. I need to figure that out. I have a lot of friends that go on good duck hunts, but I don't think I've had… You keep staring over that way. Jerad Henson: Yeah, we'll look that way too. Rob Southwick: Matt. What's going on here? Katie Burke: There's nobody over there, Matt. Rob Southwick: But that's the thing. So certain situations that they're going to fight me out somewhere different, where I don't, it's not a normal experience for me because our duck hunting where I live, it's not all that great. So I guess somewhere where they're flying left and right, I want to pull the trigger. I want to spend the money and I'm going to do my homework at a time. I'm going to be ready when I get out there. So at those moments, I'm back to the enthusiastic hunter stage, but normally day in day out, I'm going to travel. Matt Harrison: I wonder too, how much of the provider depends on where you live to like, cause I know where I'm from, like Mississippi, like a lot of people that hunt, they're hunting to fill their bags and fill the freezers. And then you can go to certain, you know, parts of the United States and they hunt just for more game, more fun, more, you know what I mean? Like, I wonder how that also applies to where you, where you're from and the certain state you're in. Like, I wonder if that changes due to the region you live in. Katie Burke: Well, and I mean, not to put a great point, but I bet social class also has a big deal with what you're doing. Yeah, it does. Rob Southwick: And the provider is by far the highest proportion rural for that very reason. All right. Well, the fourth one on here is the social hunter. Anybody guess what drives them to go hunting? Mike Brasher: hanging out with their friends, having friends that invite them to go on hunts, maybe? Rob Southwick: You get the prize of the day. The prize of the day. Exactly. These people were at the highest risk of losing as hunters. The social hunters' friends say, nah, I don't want to go hunting. Let's just go play golf. Well, guess what? A new golfer has been created. We lost another hunter, another contributor to conservation. The social hunter to me is probably the most wide-ranging when it comes to demographics. It can be an experienced person who's just gotten tired of hunting but love to go see if their kids want to go or grandkids or friends. But often it's just young people too that they just want to be a part of the group and hunting is that ticket to the social group. And it's another entry-level point into hunting. So a lot of them if they get into it start learning how to hunt on their own, will graduate and become the enthusiastic hunter or move on to the other two segments there. So, for them, it's all about spending time with other people. Hunting is that ticket to social experience. So, we've got to keep it fun. We've got to attract people like that to more social types of hunting. So, bird hunting is perfect. Spending the day in the boat with a friend, that is perfect for the social hunter. Putting them in a tree stand by themselves is a great way to make sure they never go again. Jerad Henson: Yeah, leaky waiters Yeah, so that's those that's the four personas and I think as Katie said I think it'll be really fun. Which one do we fall into? Katie Burke: Yeah, do you want to do we want to guess for ourselves or guess at other people's? Jerad Henson: I think it'd be more fun to guess at other people For sure. Matt Harrison: I call dr. Mike. Mike Brasher: What do you think I am? Matt Harrison: I would say you fall in between enthusiastic and social. I don't think you're the tranquil hunter. I don't think you're hit that stage yet. I'm not saying you're not a provider and you don't want to, but I would say what best fits you with me spending time with you as a hunter I feel like you fall on a good balance between the two, the Social Hunter and the Enthusiastic. I feel like that's gonna be my guess. And I could be completely wrong, but… Okay. Mike Brasher: Somebody else guess somebody else. I'm taking notes here. Katie Burke: Oh, well, Derek's easy. I think he's enthusiastic, Hunter. Derek Christians: I didn't take the test, but I- But I bet you are. Hearing the personas, I'm gravitating toward one of them. Katie Burke: I wonder what it is. Jerad Henson: Katie, I'm going to say you are enthusiastic slash social, like somewhere in between right there. Katie Burke: I think I'm leaning more social these days than I used to. I think you are. You're enthusiastic. It depends on what it is. Turkey hunting, enthusiastic. Duck hunting, social. Derek Christians: That's a good kind of question. Does it kind of depend on game? Like even for a single person, could they be a different persona based on what they're pursuing? Rob Southwick: Yes. Right. So if you want to try to attract people to certain activities, you want to promote that certain persona, but people will switch. Mike Brasher: So is the social hunter the one that enjoys it because they get invited, or do they enjoy it because they get to invite other people? Matt Harrison: See, that's kind of my question with the social hunter, too. Katie Burke: I assumed it's just spending time with other people, not the, like… Because I know some people who literally, like, they don't even care about hunting. Matt Harrison: They just want to go be in the mix and be with your buddies and hang out. They don't care if you shoot four ducks or whatever. I enjoy, and this may be kind of giving mine away before somebody guesses, but like, I enjoy… Hold on. Alright. No, go ahead. No, guess me. Mike Brasher: No, go ahead. I was gonna ask you how you spell your name, but I think I got that. Mr. Enthusiasm. Mr. Enthusiasm. Why don't you guess me before I… before I spill the beans? Matt Harrison: You are 75% enthusiastic, 25% social. That's… I would say you're almost bingo. Yeah. Because like, When I do go out, I don't have to have, like, let's get a group of guys and let's just go hunting, but spending that time with my really, really close friends, like my brother, who's my best friend, I don't enjoy hunting 0.01% as much as I do when I have him with me. So I guess that is part of being social, but I'm also don't, I don't have to have, hey, let's invite 10 guys and let's all go get boats and go to the duck hole. I don't care about that at all, but I do enjoy having my really close friends out there chasing ducks. Of course, I still want to shoot some ducks. I mean, that's a no-brainer, but I also don't have to have eight people to go have a good time. Me and my brother, some of the best hunts I've ever had in the woods are just me and him right by ourselves, and that's the funnest thing and the best core memories I could ever possibly want. Katie Burke: That's a good point, because when I was thinking about social, I was thinking about it in terms of how you're describing it, not in a big group of people. I was thinking about my favorite hunter with my dad and my brother. But yeah, I don't know, does that make you a social hunter? Yeah, I don't understand that part. Rob Southwick: Here's a question for you. One of the dividing lines, and there's no sudden dividing line for all of them, but when you look back on your past great hunts, is it because you shot a trophy? No. Matt Harrison: Because you had a good time with your friends? No. Good times. Good times. Someone was a hunter. You're a social hunter. Rob Southwick: Really? Yeah. Wow. Want to brag about that 10 pointer? That's you're enthusiastic. Mike Brasher: So, so I was thinking, what about, what about the, what about the person that takes 10 minutes to hang ducks up on a tree so they can get the right photo? Not that I, not that I know anybody like that, but if there were somebody like that, what category would they fall into? Rob Southwick: Decoy, decoy manufacturer. Jerad Henson: It's got to do it for the gram. Matt Harrison: What would I find also going 300 yards after a dog? Dedicated. Katie Burke: Any good retriever? But for the dog has a chance to get it, let's be sure. Matt Harrison: But that is my question is like, yeah, I still like, who doesn't like if they shoot a four-man limit of mallards, like coming back and saying, man, I shot, you know, four-man limit of mallards. Mike Brasher: You didn't shoot a four-man limit of mallards, but four people. Correct. Right, okay. Matt Harrison: That's why I said four man, not I shot four limits. Four man, we shot a four man limit. Anyway, anyway. But like at the same time, I've had some hunts, for example, just this year, me and my brother went on a turkey hunt together and it was the day after Our dog had passed away, and this turkey did it perfect, gobbling its brains out in the hard wood bottom with the creek, and it was just picture perfect. The prettiest thing, and I told my brother, I said, I refuse to shoot. I refuse to shoot, because Bale was Michael's dog, and I said, I refuse to shoot. I said, you're shooting today. I don't care. If I have the perfect shot on the turkey, well, of course. I sat up, which I thought putting Michael in this position was the best, and I told Michael, I was like, you need to be right here, and he was like, ah. Anyway turkey came out. I had the best shot and the turkey just Scooted us and I didn't shoot Michael didn't shoot, but I was just like man. This is this is all so good You know I mean like that to me even though of course I wanted to see that turkey die so bad But like at the same time like this is awesome like I'll remember that I'll tell a story about that and we didn't even kill none so Jerad Henson: I think one of the coolest stories that I kind of have about that aspect of social versus enthusiastic is post COVID. Coming out of COVID, trying to figure out what it was I missed so much about hunting. I still shot birds during COVID. I mean, we got on birds. I really, really missed hunting with my friends and my family, right? Derek Christians: That was the thing that… Jerad Henson: They drove me, and I'm lucky I was raised in an area that was very, very good for waterfowl hunting. I've gotten to hunt on some fantastic places and shot a lot of birds growing up, since I was seven. But that wasn't what I missed. Don't get me wrong, I love a day where you get four man, eight man. With the birds doing it right, everybody's shooting well, and you've got a big pile of ducks. Not pile, strung up in limits. And I enjoy eating duck as well, so I think Rob mentioned this too. There's no hard divisions, right? There's some graying and some splaying into those areas. Rob Southwick: One thing, we're talking about hunting, so being out there and having a chance to take game underlies all of the prosperity. And then you're building on top of that, is it because you want the trophy? Is it because you want to have those memories with people who you really like? We're talking about what you do that's beyond the hunting aspect of it. Matt Harrison: So now, what do you think you are? Mike Brasher: I would guess, I would have guessed that I would be, what did I say here? I think I tried to write it down. I would probably guess I'm, yeah, 50-50. I guess I don't want to commit to just one of these personas. I would say half provider, half social hunter. I really get excited about the hunt for the meat. Not necessarily to fill the freezer, but it is that sense of accomplishment and wanting to procure our own food. I get a lot of, and it hasn't always been that way. That's maybe only in the past seven or so years. Matt Harrison: What do you think your close third is? Enthusiastic? Mike Brasher: Because I feel like you're… Dude, it may be the tranquil. Katie Burke: Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't think it's enthusiastic. Matt Harrison: What do you say? I guess I have enthusiastic off. I guess my thoughts of that is a little off of what I thought. I think it is. Mine too, yeah. Because originally, I feel like, in my brain, I guess I'm thinking enthusiastic passionate. Right. You know, really, like, because I see you as that. I see you, because I can remember you come back and tell me about the first time you shot your turkey. Oh yeah. Mike Brasher: Well, that was, that was different. Yeah, first turkey, that was… Yeah, but I guess… There was nothing tranquil about that moment. Matt Harrison: Yeah, because I guess now that I understand more, I would say I was 95% a social hunter then. Like, because if you take away, I mean, I don't think I've ever had a hunt, you know, that my best hunt was by myself. And I know it don't have to be to be enthusiastic, but like my most top 10 hunts are because I got to share it with my brother and my dad or papa or, you know, so I guess I'm way more social of a hunter than what I thought. When did we do the reveal? Did we do it? Katie Burke: Have we guessed you? We haven't guessed you. Kinda, not really. Did we? What did we guess? No, we didn't guess. You guess. You guess. No, you guess. Mike Brasher: I wrote down, I would say you're social and a provider. I would say those are your two. I had 75% social, 25% provider. Katie Burke: I'm moving in more social now. Jerad Henson: A lot of it depends upon what I'm hunting, I think, as well. I'm a little different. Like, for deer, I love to bowhunt, and that's its own challenge itself. Katie Burke: I would say I'm a 100% tranquil hunter when it comes to deer hunting, because I literally just go sit in a stand and read a book to get away from my kids. So, it's just quiet time. Jerad Henson: Yeah, I love to bow hunt and get up in the woods, and that is my me time. Duck hunting, as I mentioned earlier, as a public land duck hunt, it's, as people talk about, it's the grind, you're after it, but it's a lot of that situation definitely is gonna be, I think I still have some of the enthusiasm in there for sure, but going with my dad and my friends, those are And it may also depend on… And I do love to eat wild game. Like, we don't buy ground meat. Like, I'll buy a steak every once in a while, a good steak. Other than that, everything that we eat is venison or duck. Mike Brasher: I get a lot of, there's a lot of fulfillment out of that. Jerad Henson: I do too. Mike Brasher: Personally, I'm sure it is for you too. Jerad Henson: Yeah, and I like to share the fact that you don't have to wrap Wild Game in bacon to make it tasty. Yeah, absolutely. But that's a different episode. So yeah, I think that's probably… When do we do the reveal of the… Rob has… I think I gave him the results there. Rob Southwick: I did, but I think as you all think a little bit more, I think you all perfected it here. Well, so I think you have it well here. Katie definitely put you in the tranquil side. Really? Katie Burke: I would say social more. But there you go. Rob Southwick: You talked about when you're deer hunting. Katie Burke: That's only deer hunting though. Okay. And I don't do that very often. Rob Southwick: Well, I'm going to throw the question right back to you, because we do the surveys, usually it takes about 10 questions to start. But let's go one final round around the table here, and I'll give you one question, I think I'll summarize it all. And that is, look back at the hunt you do most commonly every year. When you tell your friends who don't hunt, when you tell them about your hunt, what are you telling them? That will define what segment you're in. Oh, I have to think about that. Matt Harrison: I got it. That's easy. When it's put that way. Easy. I don't know. Jerad Henson: I have a hard time spinning it between three. Katie Burke: I know. Jerad Henson: I have three that I would normally talk about. And a lot of, sometimes it, I'm guessing on what a non, the non-hunter that I'm talking to might, or whatever I say might appeal to them the most. But I generally either lead with the amazing side it is to watch Mallard's come through timber. It's gorgeous, absolutely. The other one is the incredible time I get to spend with friends and family in the woods. Takes us away from all of those other issues. And then third is how good that and clean that protein is that I put in the freezer. Katie Burke: Yeah, I don't care about that one as much. Jerad Henson: And that's just me, like I said. Katie Burke: I mean, it's great, though. Jerad Henson: And so I generally spend those three things depending upon the audience that I'm talking to. Mike Brasher: So I would typically describe the satisfaction. Okay, so he would be social? Rob Southwick: I put you on social, but on the customer provider. Social on the customer provider realm, but in social. Mike Brasher: So I would typically describe the level of excitement and satisfaction being derived from having done the scouting. Typically, if I'm going hunting and if I'm the one that's kind of setting it up, just part of this is because of where I grew up. I don't have a lot of places where I can invite a lot of of people, and so it's usually me and maybe one other person. So there's not a huge social component to that, but for me, it's like a sense of accomplishment if I'm able to do the scouting, figure out where the birds are, and harvest a few animals. I don't have to shoot a limit. But I'm typically describing kind of how the morning unfolded, how the birds worked, and something. the satisfaction I got out of that. Does that fit into anything? Yeah. Rob Southwick: Okay. Do you look forward to telling people about that experience? What you saw, what you learned? Okay. I'm putting you in the enthusiastic hunter area. You like to challenge. You like to share it with people. Mike Brasher: I need to. I need to change my answer there. All right. Katie Burke: I have mine now. Okay. So I would say what I talk about mostly is kind of what you say like which probably makes me more tranquil that I like that early morning like feel when the ducks are coming in like I talk about that a lot I do on the podcast all the time and then also I tend to tell like a story about something that happened with someone who's there I'd say between those two things are what I tend to talk about not necessarily about what we shot usually it's making fun of Mike or that nature. Jerad Henson: Somebody tripped and went swimming in the water. Katie Burke: Exactly, yeah. I tend to talk about that too. Rob Southwick: So always spending time with friends and family and sharing what happened with friends and family. Do you see as part of a tradition, a community, family tradition being out there? Katie Burke: Oh, 100%. Rob Southwick: Yeah. 100%. And I'm done keeping you in the social. I'll put you on the tranquil a little bit there, but I put you on social, but bordering to tranquil. Yeah, I can see that, yeah. If those two together, it kind of makes you the zen hunter. Yeah, I'm an artsy person. Katie Burke: That makes sense. I can't get away from it. Jerad Henson: Derek, you've been quiet over here. Derek Christians: I've just been thinking this whole time. He's a quiet man. Of all my recent hunts that I've done, they've just been scattered around the country. When I get asked what's kind of been my favorite hunt and how I describe that to them, my kind Like, I don't necessarily talk about my favorite part being the amount of birds we shot. It's more so the landscape, because every piece around the country is something different, and I describe kind of what makes that place unique or why that hunting scenario was so unique. But then, I guess, which is weird to tell because for me, that sounds more tranquil, talking about the landscape and things like that, where at my foundation, it's always been a social thing for myself, why I hunt. Growing up in Minnesota, hunting with family and things like that, the numbers were never really a thing for me, or even now, it's always been the social. And that could be because of the waterfowl space that I primarily hunt in. So it's very much a social sport. Rob Southwick: Do you like getting out, you move around the country, trying different types of hunting? Is that what you look for? Is the new experience something different? Derek Christians: Well, that kind of comes with the job that I'm in and the role that I'm in. And that's why, like I tell them, like my favorite hunt has been something that I've never done before. So like, for example, like hunting Lake Ontario for divers, like never done that before, but that's probably something that for me is the most memorable just because of the situation of it all and kind of even explaining the play by play of why it's kind of unique. And so that could even fall into the enthusiastic part, I feel like too. Rob Southwick: Yeah, you're more enthusiastic. You got a little bit of the social in their view because you've been doing it for years. Usually, if they're a little bit younger, they'll want to go learn new ways of hunting. But you're an enigma in the sense that you work this for a business. So they get to keep you enthusiastic so everybody else who's listening, they could be in your shoes. All right, Matt, where are you? Jerad Henson: The last one over here. Matt Harrison: I mean, I would say social because looking back just this past year, I mean, if I'm going to tell stories that's going to involve my family and friends, like the best duck hunt that was opening day this past year in Arkansas, all the leaves were still on the trees. we limited out our shot limits with the right amount of people there. Mike Brasher: I'll make a joke about that once but I want you to keep going back there. Matt Harrison: I would say for sure you know I'm majority social. I do think there is some enthusiastic hunter in me just because like I do like to Not brag, I'm not saying go around, yeah, we limited out today, but there's a lot of pride in being successful on a turkey hunt, being able to go back to camp and saying, we got done this morning. You know what I mean? So I would say there's still some enthusiastic, but I would say the core hunter in Matt Harrison is, because if you took away my family and friends, I wouldn't have the drive that I have right now to go hunting. I just wouldn't. If my brother told me tomorrow, I'm done duck hunting, I'd just be like, God, I ain't gonna go as much this year. That's just the God's honest truth. So I would say majority of me social, a little bit enthusiastic. So what Dr. Mike said. Mike Brasher: Or was it vice versa? What did I say? I said 75% enthusiastic, 25% social. Matt Harrison: So flip-flop. Which you were on. Rob Southwick: Good. Jerad Henson: Self-diagnosis, perfect. Well, I think that's what's really cool is to note that these change, right? And I can say this for sure. When I, I mean, in high school and college, I had a giant duckhead sticker on the back of my truck, and it was about how many birds I shot, and I wanted to brag. And that was it. And it didn't matter who I was with. I wanted that. I'm not there anymore. It's a very different person. And I think that's normal. I think Rob was saying that, that those changes do happen, right? But not in that pre-described pathway that kind of was thought of before. And one of the coolest figures from your research shows kind of those natural pathways. And Chris, can we get that PowerPoint image up, the spaghetti plot here? Mike Brasher: That's the one I've been looking at for the past 20 minutes. Jerad Henson: And looking at it, I think before we chatted a little bit, there is some of this that kind of follows that traditional idea, but I think you had told me before it was only like 30% maybe that kind of follow that traditional pathway, so obviously missed for 70% of people. So, it's not the normal. It is the most common. Rob Southwick: That's fair. And to the earlier research, it is the most common. It doesn't mean it's the dominant path. Mike Brasher: Right. A question, Rob. Without, like, having to get into too much detail, what kind of work have y'all done to examine if there are differences in the level of, let's say, conservation support among these different groups? Is there any relationship there? Rob Southwick: We've not related those yet directly to each of the personas. We've done work in that area in the past, and the type of person that's more common to donate to conservation financially tends to be older, because they have discretionary income. But I think it's really important for all hunters to understand that, almost legally hunting, which is 99.9% of us, they are contributing. So licenses airtime by firearms, ammunition, archery equipment, it all goes into a pot. 10% of that original purchase goes into conservation. And so you're contributing is to people who give in addition. So people who are willing to donate money to, say, an easement that may open private land to recreation tends to be older. The other group is your more avid participants. Those who are diehard, not just enthusiastic, but you all sitting around the table. People who, as part of their lifestyle, as part of who we are, where we come from, Katie, your community. as part of your community, you're willing to give money. So it could be DU banquets, it could be other types of programs locally. So divinity, age are usually two top determinants of who's going to contribute above and beyond what we already give in the way of license dollars, next size taxes. All right, I'm just kind of curious, because that's… You can find it all focused on people who donate more there, but I think you saw that spaghetti bowl there, how people bounce around. They sometimes circle back around and come back into it. For example, enthusiastic hunters, you see in the left side, compared to the social hunter, Tranquil provider, almost half of all hunters start enthusiastic, and then by the time they're more senior, you know, they mature, still 25-30% are still in the enthusiastic hunter stage. But some of them bounce up to tranquil hunter, then they come back to enthusiastic hunter. That's often, they may have kids, or they have, you know, friends that wanted to get out there. They found another reason to get excited. They want to get back into it, and the people around them are excited about it. And to me, that's key in R3. So we can get to people who are starting to mellow and chill on hunting, and help them find new partners or get excited about trying new ways of hunting, we might get them back into hunting more often. And when you hunt more often, you're more likely to bring your friends. And that's the number one way of recruiting hunters is by having friends, big friends. Mike Brasher: Jared, I don't know what any of your remaining questions are, but one that I'm kind of curious about is, do we have success stories? I don't know how recent this research is, Rob, this new sort of segmentation, but to what extent have any state agencies or any other entities used this understanding to better… This is hot off the press. Jerad Henson: Is it? Okay. Mike Brasher: To tailor their messages, their methods to these different groups. That sounds like that's probably the next step. Rob Southwick: And many of them have. We've done segmentation work on fishing and others in the past, and we're seeing them focusing their messages, using different messages out there. If you don't know the individual, you hope if you can expose them to 10 or 12 messages over the course of a year, but you mix them up among the personas, a few of those are going to hit home. And we do see them doing that. That's great. That's why we did the research. Jerad Henson: Are there any pointers or any clear, I guess, things that jump out as success tactics as far as that could be used for different personas? Rob Southwick: I think number one is retaining, keeping people hunting. Often we focus only on recruiting new hunters. That's difficult. It's also really easy to lose hunters to other activities, because we are competing. A couple of you are your parents, you have kids. As a parent, you know that they're always being bombarded with, hey, come out and join this league, do this activity, join this program. And there's no one really out there talking about joint hunting. Usually families do the recruitment. but once they start hunting that's something to do a lifelong activity with to keep reminding them that hey hunting is fun plan ahead so before something else comes along and gets you to commit to their activity it could be a fun concert and all great activities but we need to be out there reminding people hey you're a hunter here's the reasons why because it gives you your escape gives you a chance to decompress and think or it's a great way to spend time for some family But don't forget, hunting gives you these benefits. Plan your trip now. Talk to your friends. Make your reservations. Get into the lease. That's the best way I think we need to apply it is to get retention. Keep people out there. Keep them going. If we do that, they'll naturally recruit more hunters. That helps ensure the long-term success of conservation. Jerad Henson: Seems like the easiest system. I know it's really hard to pull new people in, just because it seems like a lot of times the barrier to entry for new can be difficult. Rob Southwick: That's why it's up to us as hunters, because we're local. We know where they can go for the firearm safety training. We know where they can go, and we can show them what to do, because just about everybody in every survey we see, they'll tell us, I went to Hunter, I loved it. I don't know what to do. I have no one to date me. I have no one to support me. So you need that local contact. So when your local hunters do the recruiting We focus on the retention Okay. Mike Brasher: Okay. So rob you you talked about this new understanding will allow us to focus to develop and focus messages from like an agency perspective what what about individual people that are That are wanting to take other people hunting. How important is it? For us to understand try to understand what it is that motivates new hunters and to ensure that we are putting them in the situation that will resonate with them. I realize that's a hard thing to do because it requires educating the ones doing the recruiting about these types of personas and then developing an understanding of what the personas of the recruitees is, you know, the new hunters is. Or is it… And I guess my mind went there because early on you said the quickest way to get to have a social hunter not want to go hunting is to put them in a stand by themselves. So it seems like that's the next phase of kind of understanding on this. It's like communicating with other people that requires to do so effectively kind of requires you to understand how they operate and how they process information. Where are we on that? Is that unrealistic? No, it's not. Rob Southwick: Y'all have been doing it all along here in this discussion. You've brought many good examples of past hunts and why you enjoyed it, why you found it so much, why you found it so rewarding, why it was so great. When people hear those stories, they're like, I want to do it too. So when you're talking about the great experiences with your friends when you're out in the Meeting up Friday night somewhere and you're talking about hunts from past season, and there's people at the table who are listening. Pay attention to them. Find out what they find most fascinating. Is it learning about wildlife? Is it just hanging out with you? Is it the challenge of being able to drop a bird on the wing? That's the key because your discussions is what will cause that trigger to go off in their head saying, I want to do that too. Now all they're doing is waiting for that invitation. And often they won't speak up and they won't ask because they don't want to impose. Jerad Henson: That's something that, and I see Matt lighting up over here too with a question I think, but I've contributed as an academic previously for some university hunts that Delta Waterfowl did. And I was amazed at how willing students were when asked and presented with the opportunity. The big thing was just ask and give them an opportunity, help lower those barriers to entry. I mean, people jumped after it and they found it so rewarding. Every student I took over those three years all said that they had a blast and would love to do it again. And I think the only barrier they have now is another invitation. to go, right. And they're getting built, they've built connections and have helped break those barriers down, but yeah, all they were waiting on was a question, was someone to ask them, so. What else we got? I don't know, Matt, did you have something? Matt Harrison: No, I was just looking at Dr. Mike when he was talking about just giving somebody an invite, I'm still waiting on mine. Yeah, right now, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Mike Brasher: I'll go back and find, I'll go back, I'll go back and find that text message. Pull it up, prove it. Jerad Henson: Well, this has been a really, really good conversation, and we're kind of closing in on our time here. But does anybody have any closing thoughts or anything else they want to bring up before we kind of close this out? Thank you. Katie Burke: Yeah. Mike Brasher: Thank you. Thank you, Rob. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. For all the work that y'all do, I know you have diverse skill set and expertise, and I've seen your name for many years here since I've been doing this, and so I appreciate all the time that y'all devote to this. enabling a deeper understanding of these really important issues, like we study the animals so deeply in their habitats, and the same thing applies to the people that support them. Jerad Henson: That scientific approach, yeah, to understanding this as well. Mike Brasher: And thanks for sharing some of that on this today. Jerad Henson: Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it, Dan. Thank you. Derek Christians: Rob, I do have a question for you. Is this test available to the public? Are we able to take this test, or can I take this test, or any of the listeners? Rob Southwick: The report's on there if you want to read it and figure out where they belong, yes. There's a website, WAFWA.org, W-A-F-W-A.org, slash publications. there you got it. Mike Brasher: Click on the trigger. Yeah, sounds like you do need to create this test. Sort of a webinar test to allow people to go do that. Katie Burke: People love personality tests. Yeah, that's right. And make sure we have to thank our producer. Mike Brasher: Oh yeah, definitely need to thank Chris, especially for orchestrating the circus that he has going. Jerad Henson: Great job, Chris. And thank him for helping out with this awesome new studio and the other DU staff that helped make this possible. It is really awesome in here. Last thing I want to thank co-host for jumping on here. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate that. And I want to thank the listeners. We really appreciate y'all listening in and giving us your time and hope to have you back on. Mike Brasher: Thanks, everybody. Thank you.