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KILLER THRILLER x DOCU: Hot Lawyer Summer: Why Trial Attorneys Are Becoming Celebrities · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Killer Thriller with your host, Elisa Donovan.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: Hey, everyone. I'm Elisa Donovan, host of Killer Thriller, and
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: I am joined today by my Killer Thriller docu-co-host, Jennifer Fessler.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Hi, my love.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Hi, Jen. Hi.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Hi.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: So in high-profile trials, we often talk about the defendant,
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: the victims, the evidence, and the verdict. But sometimes another
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: person starts to attract just as much attention, and that
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: is the lawyer. We become fascinated by how they speak,
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: the questions they ask, their courtroom presence, their personality, even
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: the way they dress. And we watch clips of their cross-examinations.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: We debate whether they're brilliant or ineffective. We see people
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: cheering for them online and turning them into memes, following
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: their careers, and sometimes even becoming fans. And so we've
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: seen this with lawyers like Johnny Cochran and Marsha Clark
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: during the OJ trial, Leslie Abramson during the Menendez brothers case,
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Jose Baez during the Casey Anthony trial, and Camille Vasquez
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: during the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial. And we
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: are seeing that phenomenon again now with Kevin Reddington, the
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: attorney in the Lindsay Clancy trial. So today we are
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: looking at why certain attorneys capture the public's imagination, how
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: social media has changed the way we watch trials, and
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: whether a lawyer's personality and their ability to tell a
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: compelling story can actually change the way we see the
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: person that they are representing.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: I'm so surprised to me that this is the topic
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: of today's pod because I myself am a little obsessed
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: with Kevin Reddington. I cannot lie. And obviously the case
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: is so horrific and there, there's so much about it
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: that's difficult to watch, but this guy is such a badass.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: And so if we sort of extract him from the circumstances,
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: let's say, and just watch his abilities as a lawyer
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: and he's so dynamic, And he, you are, I am
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: fascinated just in terms of watching him move around that courtroom.
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: Well, there's definitely like an authority and a, an assuredness,
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: but I also feel like what resonates with me with
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: him is this, the no nonsense sort of very direct quality,
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: but also there's something about him where you, I really
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: feel that this man is, has deep compassion for his clients,
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: in particular for Lindsay. He cares for this woman's well-being.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: And I feel like a lot of the things that
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: he does, he's trying to stop the extraneous, unnecessary.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Graphic.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: Just over and over things that, that, that the jury
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: doesn't need to hear. They know, they know already these
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: horrible things and it's like, he's trying to protect her. Right.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I wonder if it had been a
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: different attorney, if the country would have, and not, not
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: everybody does, or I didn't know what the percentages are
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: rallied around Lindsay in the way that they have. I
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: think that, you know, we don't hear from her except
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: obviously her sobbing. So he is her, her mouthpiece.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I myself don't know if it had been, let's say
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: a different attorney who wasn't so commanding and didn't question these, uh, psychiatrists,
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: social workers, the way that he has didn't ask these
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: kinds of questions and didn't have.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: That person.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't, personality doesn't win you. I hope,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: I don't think personality doesn't, doesn't win cases.
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: But it does make you more open. It has made
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: me more open to understanding what happened here. The fact
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: that a mother, and we've spoken about this, Lisa, but
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: strangled her three babies with exercise bands is a very
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: hard pill to swallow. And I was not... I still
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: battle this a little bit. But in terms of whether
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: I think that she should be... She should go to
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: jail versus a mental hospital. And I think maybe the
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: majority now feel like she... She didn't get the help
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: that she needed, all of that.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: But even the ex-husband, Pat Clancy, in his statements has said,
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: this woman, I'm going to paraphrase this, so do not
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: quote me, but he generally said, please forgive her. Our
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: family is in deep, deep grief. This is not who
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: this person is. We need to move.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: On, kind of thing.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: He's not..
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: Forgiving he's not excusing it but he's saying this woman
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: does not.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Deserve to be decimated the way.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: People are trying the way the prosecutor is and i
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: think a lot of people are surprised i am as
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: as a woman her demeanor about this is so right
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: it's like what is what is that that quote you
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: know uh there's a special place in hell for women
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: that don't support other women.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: But Elisa, don't you think that because her demeanor is
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: what it is, right? So she already has, I, this
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: is my opinion. She is not likable. I don't know
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: what she's like in real, not real life. I don't
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: know what she's like when she's not working. Maybe she's
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: a lovely woman. Um, the bows of it all like
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: that is just the beginning, but her approach is not
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: a relatable, likable and His is, and Kevin's is. I'm
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: not saying that he's making jokes in the courtroom, kind
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: of likable, but he is somebody who feels trustworthy to me.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: He feels like a truth teller to me.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: So do you think this is like partly on gender lines?
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: Because I was thinking about this and going, gosh, I
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: want to not be making a judgment about this prosecutor
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: being not likable as a woman, right?
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: I hate that.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: I don't like using crazy to describe women and things,
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: but there's something that's like.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: A lack of general.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: Decency to say, as a woman, I can understand the
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: stresses of parenting or the under, like some sort of like,
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: I get that.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: And it's not okay what she did.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that would have been a better
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: approach for her. I don't, you know, how to, I
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: don't know what wins cases. Right. But I do know that, um,
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: it's not just her, it's some of the other. So
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: it's for instance, uh, what was her name? Jennifer Tish.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Is that the doctor's name?
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: The doctor, which one, the one, the one, the young
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: one that had only.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Been practicing for a year. And that only saw all
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: these Lindsay, right. Only saw her online. She was also,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: I found her very unlikable. I don't know. And again,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I don't know what all of this means, except that
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: today we're talking about not, well, she was, she's not
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Jennifer Tish, not a lawyer. I think that was her name,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: but how much does that matter? These lawyers, their approach,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: their personalities, their convictions. I feel from you, I feel
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: from him like you do this empathy for Lindsay, this true,
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: you know, the feeling that he truly does care about
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: her and feel like, she is being persecuted and she
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: was having a psychotic break and all of that. And
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: I find him very believable.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: And yet at the same time, I don't, there's a
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: professionalism to it where I don't feel like he's asking
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: the jury to be emotional and sort of trying to
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: pull on these emotional strings.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: There, there's a real kind of matter of factness about
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: what he's doing.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Agreed.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: But there's a humanness.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, there is. But what is that? So, I mean,
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: we're talking about recognizing great lawyering, right? And I think
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: there is a large consensus. Everybody thinks that he is
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: a great lawyer. But when we're watching the case, are we,
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: in fact, responding to charisma and to confidence? And is
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: that swaying, you know, as people that are watching and
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: listening and consuming all of this? are we swayed by personality?
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: And so I think that Kevin is a perfect first
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: example of when a lawyer becomes a piece of the case,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: almost as crucial as the victim, as the judge.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: I think you can't deny how important it is, right?
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, they are your representative. They are representing quite
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: literally and figuratively you. So it's a really important thing.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: And I want to, again, say, we talk about this
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: a lot, but I really want to state out loud
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: that I am personally reminded daily by personal friends in
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: my life who have gone through unspeakable trauma that these
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: are real people who are talking about real things that
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: are going on in their lives.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Sometimes when we.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: Get into this talking about the theatrics in a courtroom,
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: we just have to be very careful to remember that
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: we are talking about real people. And I think that
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: became abundantly clear as a reminder when Lindsay was inconsolable,
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: when she was weeping. It seemed like she was almost
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: having a panic attack or something. in the courtroom when
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: she was forced to see these photos of her.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Children and what she had done.
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: And it's just so painful for everyone, for the whole family,
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: for anyone involved. And again, going back to to her lawyer,
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: to Kevin Reddington, there is like a dignity and a
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: respect to the way he carries himself in these unspeakable
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: circumstances that I really respect a lot.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: I do too. Do you think with all of that,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: he has become a key player in the story, right?
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: So it's not, so when, when, we step back and
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: we talk to the people we know about the story
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: and about the case. At least my experience has been
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: that he has always mentioned disgust. His behavior is dissected
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: and how he did this. And did you see when
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: he said this? And so, yes, these are real people,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: but now he is a real person in this story,
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: not just a lawyer, right? At least that's how it
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: feels to me. And So it's, it's a little, it's complicated, right?
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Because you start to have feelings, not just for the
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: victim or the perpetrator, but we, the person, this lawyer
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: is now part of the story. At least that's how
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: I feel. And I agree with you that I don't
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but I know that, that it's, you know, it's,
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: he didn't, he wasn't there. He had nothing to do
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: obviously with what happened, but we are discussing him almost
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: as much as we are discussing Lindsay's.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: I think that they probably must understand that when taking
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: on a high profile case like this, or I suppose
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: you don't always necessarily know it will become that, but
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: in this case, I think it was clear that that
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: is sort of a part of the deal that you
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: potentially are going to be under a microscope and people
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: will have judgments about everything you do and, you know,
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: look at Marsha Clark is the first one that really
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: comes to mind for me in that regard.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: That she was put through the.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: Ringer, that woman, during that trial. And nobody was more
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: prepared than her. Nobody was more professional. She was such
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: a phenomenal lawyer. And it came down to people talking
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: about her haircut and whether she was likable as a
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: woman and all of these things that it just is like,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: And I think in that case, it really did start
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: to unravel certainly how the public felt about the case.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: I just feel like it's such a dicey area.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Agreed. And that is another perfect example of when the
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: lawyers become characters in the story. And she spoke about,
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: I guess one day she wore a white dress and
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: she was, and you know, everybody was critiquing everything about
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: her from her hair to her manner. And I guess
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: I just read this. Somebody said, why are you wearing
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: a white dress? Like, in other words, is there meaning
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: behind it? She said, yeah, because it was clean.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: Because she's like, I'm working a hundred hours a day
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: and I'm going from home to court back and forth.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: Like I'm not right. I'm not going and getting my
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: hair done every day.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: No. And she said she originally, I guess, she, so
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: she was, um, working as a defense attorney privately and
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: then really wanted to, uh, be there for victims and
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: became this, you know, civil servant or prosecutor, federal prosecutor
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: or whatever. And that's when she said she stopped having
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: that much money and she cut her hair because she
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: just couldn't deal with it anymore. I guess the expense
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: of it and it was such a focus, you know,
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: there was so much focus on it and it's just
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: like a, it's a great example of when the lawyer
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: becomes part of the narrative. Yeah. It's really, it's really,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: and like you, I felt so, I was felt sick
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: for her. It was awful. And she said it was
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: like a nightmare every single day.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: And she said she never even had a chance because
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: OJ was OJ. And she truly believed that there from
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the beginning, there was not, that he was, they didn't, the,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: the prosecution didn't stand a chance.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: And then there's the Johnny Cochran of it all.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is, again, that is all so curious
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: because of how that case became so much about race, right?
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: The defense turned the whole thing.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: On its head and made it about race when, ironically,
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: OJ is the one that got special treatment.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Because he was such a celebrity.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: So really this was not, if it was about race, it, it,
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: you know, he's the one that got the special treatment,
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: not so.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: And then Johnny Cochran, but you know, that was what
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: he used.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: He quote unquote, you know, pulled the, the race card,
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: which is a very genius, you know, and tapped into
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: what was going on in Los Angeles at the time,
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: which was very real. And there were real racist cops and,
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: violent racism that was rampant. And it was right after
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: the Rodney King trial. So everybody was very heightened and
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: aware of the deep-seated racism.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: So it was a genius defense. It really was.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: But also Johnny Cochran, if we're talking about lawyers, Kevin Reddington, charisma,
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: he had such charisma. I mean, that line, if it
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: doesn't fit.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: You must quit.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: That became... These days you'd call it, what, a meme,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: a gif? I don't even know.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: But just the way he said it and the way
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: that it, you know, it's spiraled and we know that
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: line so well. And that's about Johnny Cochran. That's not
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: about OJ. It's not about Nicole Brown Simpson. Right. And so,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: you know, I think, and we're seeing it, listen, that
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: was a while ago, but there are so many more
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: recent cases like Kevin Reddington of lawyers, you know, becoming
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: famous in their own right, Camille Vasquez. who defended Johnny
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Depp against Amber Heard.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: She, yeah, that was a curious one for me because
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: I have such mixed feelings about that entire situation. But she,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: why was she so, what specifically made her kind of
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: catch everyone's eye?
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Well, okay, so I guess different things can be said
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: and probably have been said about her. Very attractive woman.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Obviously representing Johnny instead of Amber.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Representing Johnny instead of Amber. I thought she was a
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: brilliant attorney and held certain hands to the fire. When
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: you say you have different feelings about the case, maybe
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: you think that maybe you were team Amber. I don't know.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: I was not. I was definitely team Johnny Depp. But
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: with all of that, if we put that aside for
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: a second, what is it, how did she manage to
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: have the media so amazed and attentive and, and they
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: were really, again, she was a character in the story.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you the name of the person who
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: defended Amber Heard. Could you?
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: No, I don't know. No.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, then there also were rumors that she was
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: involved with Johnny Depp. And so this is like where
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: like romantically involved, which she then said was laughable, which,
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: you know, the press is always going to try to
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: make drum something up somewhere.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: But again, I.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: Always feel so conflicted when kind of looking at the
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: typical gender roles. Like, I hate to keep bringing it
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: back to this, but I can't help but thinking about
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: it even, but think about it with, you know, are
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: we looking at Kevin Reddington as, you know, capable and
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: all these things because he's like, you know, the.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Father figure and older white guy?
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But guess what? Camille Vasquez was, was... not any
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: of those things. She was the opposite of those things. Right. Right.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: But then it's like, we're making the presses making these
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: stories that, Oh, it's because she's, you know, sleeping with
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: Johnny Depp.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: But I don't think that's why she commanded the attention
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: she commanded. I think it was almost similar to Kevin
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Reddington in, in a way, the way she moved around
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: that courtroom was such, um, she was so, uh, assured
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: and so self-assured.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Like an ease and a confidence.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: And not only an ease and a confidence, there was
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: a toughness there. And you, I felt like she, maybe
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: similar in a way that I, when I look at
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Kevin Reddington, the way that he, you see that he really,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: really believes what he's defending. And I feel like she felt,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: she did too. Like he, the way Kevin felt about,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: it's a totally different situation, obviously.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: But it feels like he is so personally involved in
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: exonerating Lindsay Clancy. And I felt the same way. Camille
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Vasquez felt very connected to what she was doing and
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: very assured that she was on the right side of history.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if it was, I was amazed
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: by her, both of them in similar way.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, as you were just saying that, it was
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: making me think that these... these lawyers sort of give
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: me the sense of like a renewed belief in the
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: system or something, or like a hope for justice in
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: some regard, because it's not a zoo, you know? I
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: don't feel like either of them made the courtroom a zoo,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: you know?
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Like a spectacle.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: It was really like, this is what's going on and
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: this is what needs to be addressed and why, as
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: opposed to kind of histrionics and things.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: So I wonder how much of it, of it with
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: these lawyers, obviously we're talking about unbelievable lawyers here, but
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: is their own personal, because I feel like you could
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: feel their personal conviction that their clients are innocent and
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: it comes through.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because Reddington consistently emphasizes Lindsay as a mother and
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: her relationship with the children, the family photos, and her
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: behavior before the mental deterioration. And I mean, that part
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: of the narrative is very important for her particular plea.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: And even I was very moved by her mother-in-law's testimony
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: And saying- As was I. Yeah.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: This is a person who was crying for help.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: And when she was cross-examined, the prosecutor said, do you
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: know that Lindsay said that you guys weren't close? Did
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: you see that? Yes, I did. Do you know that-
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Almost like- Like a- It felt- Like, by the way,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Lindsay's talking badly about you. Yes, it was so petty
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: and so- It felt so petty to me too.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: And insensitive.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: And insensitive.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: This woman lost three grandchildren and a daughter-in-law.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Lindsay said you weren't close. I mean, honestly, that just
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: felt so irrelevant. But- Yeah. So now we're watching this
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: lawyer again whose name I do not know. Do you?
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: No.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: I mean- I did.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: I do, but it goes in and it goes out.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: All I do is think about the bows, but I-
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know who, I don't know what her name is.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: And it just, it, she's not likable to me and
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: he is. And, and truthfully, I, I don't know if
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: that has to do with, he's a father figure, maybe, maybe,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: but then we do talk about, you know, Camille Vasquez
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: and there are so many other attorneys that female attorneys,
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I think that have become really memorable because of not
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: only their performance, but really now that I'm, we're talking
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: about it, their commitment to their clients, Leslie Abramson represented
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Eric Hernandez.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: With the blonde curly hair.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Also, they tried to like, they said tons of things
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: about her physical appearance also, you know, just like raked
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: her over the coals. And she so clearly was like
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: a kind of mother figure in my opinion to them
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: that's how I felt she felt very maternal like she
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: cared about these boys while understanding the horrific crimes that
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: they committed you know in no way saying these are
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: justifiable I think that's the thing that's so important that
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: these lawyers that we remember so much do is that
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: they're able to make us feel empathy while not excusing
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: the clients for what they've done in the cases where
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: they are, you know, guilty. Yes.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: I think I agree. I think she's a good example
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: of that. And I believe in the first trial, there
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: was a hung jury, right?
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: And she was, yes.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: And she was so, uh, and, and they knew she
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: never tried to, uh, deny that he did it.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: That was never, it was all about, um, it was
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: all about that horrific father and, um, you know, what
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: he had done to these boys. And she was really
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: successful at, you know, convincing the first jury, not maybe
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: all of them, I don't remember. Do you still say
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: hung jury? I think so. Okay, wait a second. This
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: kid basically had no other choice. He was, you know,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: this came out of years and years and years of
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: sexual abuse and physical abuse and lost his mind.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: Do you think, does understanding someone psychologically make us more
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: likely to believe that they weren't legally responsible?
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that is such... Now, I
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: think about that a lot with the Lindsay Clancy trial
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: because you will hear there are plenty of people who
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: feel like, okay, so let's say she had a psychotic break.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Aren't most murderers mentally ill? I mean, you do... Right.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: This is the question. I'm just saying this is..
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: So if you understand, let's say there's a murderer who
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: has been abused his whole life, and physically, sexually, emotionally,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: years and years and years and years. Does that count?
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: So that is, I don't know. I can't answer that.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: I just know in Lindsay's case, specifically, I think for
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: you and I and many women, we know that she
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: went against Every instinct.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: Every instinct that she has.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: And the fact that she has to live with this
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: for the rest of her life. There's no good news
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: for her, period.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: There's so much testimony that's stated what a great mother
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: she was before this, how she loved her children. So
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: the care that she had for them, the kind of
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: person that she was.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: And then you can see the slow progress. demise.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: I know. And how much, how much she tried to
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: get help, you know, but again, these lawyers, you know,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Kevin is doing an unbelievable job of, you know, giving
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: us that background. And I think that some, a lot
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: of these lawyers that we're talking about, you know, that is,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: they are brilliant at that. And I do think that personality, um,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: style probably does play a role I don't know how
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: much of a role, I don't know if that's fair
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: or not. I really, I can't say, but I just
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: know that the ones that are, that we talk about often,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: oftentimes have this, I thought Camille Vasquez had unbelievable charisma
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: or that she was her, if it's a performance, she
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: was not an actress, but she was a master at
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: her craft or is a master at her craft.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: Side note, by the way, she's actually a partner in
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: my husband's firm.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Camille is?
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Camille is, yeah. Oh, you're kidding. So now I feel.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Like this is biased.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Maybe, because I did call her once when I was
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: being lied about, about something very silly, reality TV bullshit
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: that we will not mention. And I was like, we
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: are calling Camille because it was slander. And so, yeah,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: so I could, I do have, I have, you.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Have a little bit of a bias.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: She didn't say that. She was actually wonderful about it.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: So I do have a special affinity for her and anyway,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: but I do think what I, I, before all of that,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: I was fascinated by her.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: I'd be so curious to hear, you know, once this
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: is done, what the jury, you know, like their, their
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: feelings about all of this, you know, their being in
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: the room, the, their interpretations of that and how effective
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: it is.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: What do you think is going to happen by the way?
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: I really hope for the sake of this woman, I
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: see it just to your point of what you just said,
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: there is no.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Positive end for this woman. No, there is not. It
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: is very clear that she is a broken person now.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: And I.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Pray for her heart, soul, body, everything, and for that
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: whole family. I just want for them, I want it
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: to be over. And I hope that she is not
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: put into a prison cell with these hardened criminals who
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: are murderers. I just don't think that's where she belongs.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I think you talk about this. It's so funny. I
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: agree with you, but I just see like the, I
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: see the empathy and I know how this is like,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: you're watching this trial and how your heart is breaking
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: for her.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: You are clearly not alone. Mine as well. But I
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: don't want her to go to jail. I don't want
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: her to be out in the world, though. I can't
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: say that I want to watch her.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: No, she needs to have some long-term, long, long, long-term care.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Yes. So I definitely think that she has to be
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: behind bars, behind hospital walls. I don't want to see
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: her go to prison. I want to see her, though,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: locked up maybe forever. I don't know how that sounds right.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: If that maybe sounds cold or not, but..
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: You know, when I think about the whole family and
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: meaning her ex-husband, the father of those children, and both
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: of their families, this will never end.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: No.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: It won't.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: No. Their lives are ruined forever.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Their lives are changed forever. And I.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: Feel I just want the thing that is for the best,
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: the highest good for all of them. And I just
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: feel like being in a prison cell is not that.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: I don't, I agree with you.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: But I don't, but I do think that a hospital
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: where there are people and, and, and I, yeah.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: My stand on it. But anyway, you know, lawyers.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: It's hard because this is so, you know, I mean,
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: she could become one of these people that ultimately gets
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: to make an effect change based on what she did.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: She could become a person who's able to speak on this.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: And again, not like needs to be wherever, whatever facility
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: is right.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that necessarily as she needs, it's not
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: about punishment. What I'm, I think that she needs to
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: be away because I think that she is, she would
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: not be in my humble opinion, fit to walk among
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: us out in society. I think she, That's just my
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: own personal opinion. But it doesn't mean that I don't empathize,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: that I don't want to see her locked up in
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: a cell either. I really don't.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it really speaks volumes that the family
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: is not saying that that's what they want. That the
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: testimony and any statements that I've read anyway all seem
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: to come from a place of obviously devastation mortified that
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: this has happened, but no one wants to like put
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: her to death.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: No one wants to, they just are sort of broken
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: all around.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: And do you think that with a different lawyer, we
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: would have, yeah, this would have been so evident. You
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: think that any, you're saying that you think that with
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: a different lawyer, we would have still, you would have,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: you personally would have still felt this way.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: I personally would have, but I think, no, I thought you're,
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: I was going to say, I think you're right. That
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: with a different lawyer, he, she, he, she might not
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: be getting as much empathy or as much understanding. And again,
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: I think it's because he's so skilled as well as
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: having a heart and a humanness about him. So he's
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: not trying to, again, over-emotionalize everything in any way. Yeah.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Because I think most lawyers, if they're, if they're her
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: defense lawyer, this is the way they're going to go
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: in terms of like, she had a psychotic break and
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: they're going to, you know, they're going to put, all
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: of the doctors that, that were not there and didn't
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: do the right thing on the stand. And they're going
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: to do very similar. I think similar things to what
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Kevin Reddington has done. I wonder though, could they all
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: have been.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: This effective, this effective?
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: I know they all have won us over, you know,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: as watchers of the trial.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Could they have won us over in the way that
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: he has?
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: This is a great question. I don't know.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: And again, I think that is, interestingly enough, it's almost
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: because it's like this non-judgment, it's not the right word.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: There's a professionalism, but an authenticity and a clarity and
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: a humanness that is It doesn't feel biased, I guess.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like he's.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Well, he's done this before. I want to say he's
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: done this before. He's had cases.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: He's represented some very controversial people.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Right? So I want to say a priest?
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: Yes, one of the first, if not the first, priests
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: that was convicted of pedophilia in the Catholic Church. Right.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Because if you remember, that was all in Boston when it— Right.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: The first— That movie.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Was based on it.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: Spotlight.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Spotlight, right.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: I did hear an interesting quote out of Kevin Reddington's
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: mouth that something to the effect of, you know, why
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: he became a defense attorney. And he said, I just,
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: I don't have it in me to try to prosecute
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: someone to put them in prison. Like I don't have
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: it in me to want to imprison another human being.
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: And I just thought that was a very interesting quote.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: really human way to look.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: At his job. I don't know if that's a good
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: thing or not. I don't know if that's a good
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: thing for our legal system, for the law. I don't know.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I just love him. Yeah. I do.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: It just seems like a very pure intention. It certainly does.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: He's in the right field. He has the right job
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: for himself.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: It's such an interesting question though, right? How much personality,
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: like his, his stuff. He doesn't want to put people
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: in jail. None of that should have a bearing on
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: how we feel about this case, who he is as
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: a person. It should be facts, right? Like I am
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: right now, if I'm being completely honest, he could basically
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: say almost anything and I'm going to be.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: You're going to be on his side.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is why we got to talk to
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: one of the jurors when this is over.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, he won me over. And I think that
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: it's a, listen, that's why some of them make the
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: big bucks, I guess. They're really good at their jobs. But,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: you know, and they stick with us.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: I think it's also because of social media where everybody,
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: you can watch just little snippets of these cases and
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: it gets put into your algorithm and then you're seeing
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: all these things and you don't even have to watch
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: the entire thing.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: You just get like, highlights.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, and then social media knows that
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: I love him. So now I'm getting all, you know, uh,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: fucking Kevin Reddington, Stan, you know, right. And his biker shorts.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Like you're just getting.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: All of it.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Oh man.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: I guess the question is like, what makes us remember
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: the lawyer almost as much as we remember the trials?
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: And when we like the lawyer, does that make us
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: more likely to like or at least understand the person
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: that they're defending?
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: I think the answer to that is yes.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. So I know that we can't answer this.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: We are not psychiatrists. We are not even on the jury.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: But I think these are important questions.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: I think they are too.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: And I think really with specifically to Lindsay Clancy, which
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: I think we say over and over that I just
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: think it's especially important in cases like this that are
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: so difficult and so devastating. And he isn't just arguing
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: a legal defense. He's also presenting a way for the
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: jury and for the public to look at Lindsay to
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: have some compassion and humanity. Yeah.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, listeners weigh in. I'm curious about everyone's opinions
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: on this.
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: Again, I want to make sure that people understand when
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: I am saying these things about having compassion for Lindsay
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: that I am also saying at the very same time,
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: it's horrific what she did. And I have more compassion
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: for the father of those children and And his family
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: and her family, like it's everyone. It's devastating for everyone involved.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: I don't think you've ever sounded like you just have
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: compassion for Lindsay or it escapes you how heinous this
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: crime is and was. And I mean, I think that
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: you are, I think you probably speak for, I don't
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: know if it's the majority, is it? I don't know.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: What are the stats right now? Who is?
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a good question.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: I don't really know. But I certainly know you're not alone.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: I feel like that. Yeah.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: Well, as always, I really, really love these crossover chats
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: that we have.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: I really do. I love it.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: I love them. And I love you. And let's get
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: some jurors on here.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. All right, guys.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Thanks, guys.