Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 440. Storytelling for Good (Part 2) - Jon McCoy, CFRE and Becky Endicott, CFRE

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440. Storytelling for Good (Part 2) - Jon McCoy, CFRE and Becky Endicott, CFRE · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm John And I'm Becky And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 3: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: So welcome to the Good Community.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: So let's get started.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Happy Friday, Becky.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: What's up?
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Hey y'all, Happy Friday.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: Good to be back on part two.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Part two of storytelling for Good mini series.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed last week.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: You know we decided we kind of looked back.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: We're like we realize we talk about storytelling a lot, which means we get questions about storytelling a lot, and we just wanted to dedicate a couple of weeks to lift some of the cool questions that we have heard that have gotten our minds spinning of just what is the best way to show up and what is the best way to lean into this work, because we believe in the power of storytelling And if there's one thing that we've learned even more launching this is the power of storytelling is such a gift to our sector and we just want to be better at it, right?
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: Can I geek out about something real quick?
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: I mean I've been seeing it happen and I'm so excited about it And it's really this evolution of storytelling that we're seeing happen right now in the sector.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: And naturally I need to tattle on myself because when I was first starting to storytell and I'm a writer by trade and that's me at its most basic form And I remember interviewing people in our early days And I remember there was just this linear formula that we would just use to talk And it was like very much the hero's journey, your very typical storytelling arc, and I remember all my stories like started sounding the same And John, you would never be so unkind as to say that they weren't, but they totally were.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: And I'm just watching right now this movement where it's like linear is I mean it tends to be so hashtag basic right now And it's still a tried and true formula.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: But the way that we're watching storytelling evolve to be more human, to really get into this nexus of seeing someone and seeing yourself and someone else's shoes, or seeing yourself as being a catalyst for change for that person, the evolution of that is so exciting And so we were like we're going to dive deeply into this moment, because we don't want you to feel like you're stuck in that linear format that was in my mindset for so long, because there is such an opportunity here to be creative, to be human, to be inclusive and to cast that story as far as you can and to let it go on and on in different mediums.
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: So, y'all, if you're not feeling the energy from the storytelling moment we're standing in, i'm telling you it's here for the taking, but we're going to dive into that deeply.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: We tease this course that we are about to unpack and that we are for good community, but nestled within that, we've just found some little epiphanies and we're lifting those epiphanies through some questions that we've gotten over the years, and I just think it's awesome that we're diving more deeply into having existential discussions about what are the things that are holding us up in storytelling in the nonprofit sector.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean I personally you know I shared this last week that I never felt like I was a storyteller.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: you know, i felt like this is something that I needed to learn and grow into.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: And now, like I look back and I see it does take just putting yourself out there and just starting wherever you're at, because, as you kind of flex the muscle, as you put yourself in the situation we're going to talk about interviews today, because interviewing is one of these big powerhouses.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: It's not just has to come from within you Like go find the people to talk to, to draw the story out.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: And so, if you missed last week, let me point to one of the questions we answered, because I don't think you want to miss this.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: One of the key things is finding people to talk to right, finding stories to draw out.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: and we addressed a question that we got in this room one day of how do I find the person to talk to?
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Nobody on my board do I want to interview.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: We'll go back to last Friday's episode and we're going to give you lots of ideas.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Let's assume that you've got somebody in front of you, somebody that has agreed, they've accepted your calendar request And you're going to go interview somebody.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Here's a question we get and, side note, i was asking this question to a few years ago How do you prep for an interview and how do you get people to really share their heart, share their story and go beyond just the surface?
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: And so I feel like you should lead in, because you taught me basically everything I know about this.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: and, yeah, how do we approach it?
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: How do we approach going into interviews?
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, i think we all just like kind of tripped through this experience, just trying and ending.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: You know it's like a muscle.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: Interviewing, storytelling is like a muscle.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: You get better and better at it the more you flex it.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: And the first place that I tell people to start is know your organization's values And I know that you're probably rolling your eyes because we bring this up all the time, but I promise they will act as anchors to you to help you connect on a deeper level with someone.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: The second thing I would say is no enough to be dangerous, like I think can we give Julie a shout out for this on the podcast, like she, before we ever have anybody that comes onto the podcast, she's doing her research.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: And that's what I mean by no enough to be dangerous.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: You know you need to find those collision points where your organizational values and this person's personal story and experience come together And that can be such a powerful moment that creates safety in the space.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: It creates that psychological safety where someone feels cared for, that they can come in and share their heart, they can be open and know that it's going to be cared for.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: And can I just say something about our interview process that, i think, is really interesting, and I don't know that we intentionally did this, but it just kind of organically happens that time before the interview and right after that, right after the interview, that is sacred space And I want to share a story about it, if I can, for a second, before we dive more deeply into this question about, oh my gosh, probably about 10 years ago, john and I were working on this employee campaign for our healthcare organization and we were like two or three years in, so we had some impact that we could point back to, and we'd had a particular individual who came into our video studio and she was going to.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: She was a recipient of one of these gifts And she was in remission from cancer.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: The gift that she received was we had like over 300 employees who had paid in to create this incredible program called Survivor Fit, and Survivor Fit was getting people who were recently in remission and beyond to get them active, to get them exercising again and to get them counseling, and it was like full mind, body, spirit And these employees raised like I don't even remember John like 40,000, 50,000.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was probably eventually 100,000.
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: At one point We had this woman come in and we were going to interview her And she had gotten one of these Survivor Fit scholarships.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: And when she walked into the studio we met her, we met her husband.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: We take that extra 10 minutes just to get to know her.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: We she shares a little bit about her cancer story And then we say to her do you know how this was funded?
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: And she said, well, through the hospital.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: And we said, well, yes, but this was actually employee gifts that funded this.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: This came out of their paycheck because they believe so deeply in it.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: And did you know that?
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: a portion of the people who gave to this we have their stories and they were giving it.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: They were giving on behalf of a loved one who's had cancer, those who survived and those who didn't, and this is their love letter to you.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: And that woman do you remember her?
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: Stephanie?
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: Am I allowed to say her name?
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure, stephanie, i still can see her And her hair was just recently growing back.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: She was so moved She was crying before she ever got in the chair And I can tell you that interview that she gave us was 150% more all in because she had an understanding about it.
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: She felt that people were rooting for her.
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: So I do think that there's this sense of before you even get into the guts of that story, you have the opportunity to create a safe space.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: You have the opportunity to share and make someone feel warm and included and in control of their own story.
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: And I think when you can create that, something magical happens when you actually hit play if it's a video, or play with your podcast, or play with your pen if you're just taking these notes.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean, i remember that moment too, and it is about creating the safe place, because it could have been a completely transactional moment, and this is what I would say as you're prepping for an interview do not let it be transactional.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: You have this human soul that is giving you their time and has agreed to share their story Like what a gift, and so we really try to stay in that sacred space to create that moment, but in that, have really great questions ready, because it's really easy also to fall in the trap of the transactional questions And we have not interviewed a ton of celebrities at this point or people that are worldwide famous.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: But I do think it's really subversive whenever you can come in and they get taken aback when you ask something that's not just the expected I think people get used to and they didn't even think about their reply, of the basic questions that you could throw at somebody.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: But for us, one of our moments that I see it happen is take us back to a moment in philanthropy in your life that really has stuck with you.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: How many times has that?
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: asked you on the street.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: You'd think we get tired of asking that question, But even this last week, in recording someone's like man, I've never thought about that before And they go back in the recesses, in this safe place, to bring us back to a moment when they're a child and they had this formative moment.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: And it's like I have chills thinking about that, because if you create the space and you give a question that's going to take somebody off of just the autopilot answer that we all know how to say what do you do for a living?
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: or something like that, which we're not even good at answering that question, Let's be clear about that.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: We're not.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: But you know what I'm saying Asking that allows somebody and gives them the space and the time and they don't feel rushed to go back and really be thoughtful and think about it.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: And you started by talking about the values.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: If you can see the through line to the values that connected you on the front end and then you start to see it in their story, it allows you to go even deeper And I think it's rewarding for both the person being interviewed and you as the interviewer, because you find that commonality that's way below the surface That you're like oh, I've seen.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, of course, you're centering dignity because you experienced that at such a young age in this experience, And I just think that's when magic happens and that's when you kind of fall out of.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: We're doing an interview and you're like we're just having this really deep, wonderful conversation where both sides feel seen And I think we have that superpower as nonprofits, as impact organizations that are listening.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: Today You can ask those questions.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Philanthropy lives in that really special place that's at that vortex of something that could be deeply personal, deeply meaningful and most likely, really aligned with the values that they want to show up in in the world.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: And it's like don't leave that off the table by just asking what do you do for work, Or something like that Boom.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, john, you've just completely expressed why storytelling should never be transactional, because there are so many opportunities that exist in the moment that you are connecting with a human being, because the reality is is you're not trying to write a story, you're trying to create a human connection, and when you can make that human connection, everything good can flow from that.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: And I want to make sure that nobody missed anything what you're saying about the through line, because we call it threading And it's hilarious on the podcast when it happens, because when John sees it he will literally use his finger like he's threading a needle or a thread while we're in the middle of the podcast.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: But I want to say threading and finding that through line is also incredibly kind, because when somebody says something and you repeat back to it and you bring it back around later on, it says I heard you.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: It says I see what you're doing.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: It also says that really impacted me and stayed with me enough that I'm going to bring it up later.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: And then what are you doing with that?
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: You're building more trust, you're building more connection.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: Somebody feels safe enough to share.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: And I'm telling you when you get to the end again of that interview leave some time at the end to talk about how did that feel, you know, and what are the next steps.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: Because that is a true co-build And co-built stories feel so much better than transactional stories, and so I want to round out this thought with just one little pro tip.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: And I want you to know that stories of philanthropy take people to an entirely different headspace.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: So when you're interviewing, don't just ask about those big flashing moments.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: Don't take just the obvious answer.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: If you need to grab that, of course we need to grab it, but really make sure that you're asking about the most meaningful or formative moments.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: John talked about this because that is where the emotion is, that's where the power is And that's where the invitation for someone else to jump on can come about, and we want people to see themselves as agents of change in the story.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, you can tell we really love talking about interviewing And I think it is such a superpower that we can all lean into.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: So let's jump to another question, and this is one that's a little bit more sticky, but I think it's something that's a reality for many of us.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: What do we do when there's an imbalance between what our leader, or maybe our board, expects for the story that they want to be told, with what the actual storyteller feels comfortable sharing, or taking us back to or painting a picture of?
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: What do you do in that situation And how do you navigate it?
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: Hello cue, the ethical storytelling moment like that is flashing Why.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: This has happened to me a couple of times in my career And it's a tough place to be in because you're in the middle, and my advice would be go back again to your organization's shared values and your goals and point there, because that's really what we're about And that's really about what we're amplifying, because we all collectively agreed and approved those.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: We all said yes, i commit to these And this is what our work represents.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: They are truly the ultimate lit mis-test, and so one of our pro tips would be you know, behold the power of co-building and co-approval in stories.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: What does this mean?
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: It means that when we're creating those interview questions, we're co-building them.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: If I'm the person working at the nonprofit, i put a first draft together and I send them over to the person I'm interviewing and I say how did these feel?
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: What are we missing?
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: Does anything need to be reworded?
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: Is there a part we haven't covered?
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: That way, you're already consenting on the script.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: When that's done, send that to your ED.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: I would say just over, communicate and just say this is where we're going in PS.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: This is like really micromanaged, because I'm more of a hey, just go in and get the story and bring it to bear, but if this is a problem, i would say you need to over communicate with your leadership to ensure everybody's on the right page.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: I love all this because I think when you lean into, like the ethical storytelling piece is we've had this conversation on the podcast a few times The internet really is forever, you know, or there's definitely pieces.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Even if you take the story down, that doesn't mean that it hasn't been copied somewhere else or replicated somewhere else.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: And so when we're talking about the most sensitive of moments or the most vulnerable of situations, if you don't have all of that locked down and the consent and all of that, it becomes a really problematic thing that we're perpetuating a lot of the stigma systems, words that we're trying to eradicate through our work.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: So I'm really glad you're talking about that in real, practical terms, to be And this is real.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, we work with so many missions that have just devastating effects, with what happens within their walls, and it's like we have domestic violence, we have homelessness, we have mental health, we have we're battling so many systemic diseases and problems within our organizations that we really need to walk carefully with this.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: And I want to give a shout out to like, if you're somebody that really wants to dive into this, maria Brian has an incredible trauma informed storytelling course that she puts together.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: We'll tag that up in the show notes, but I think it's just practical to give a little bit of an example And I want to give one shout out to this incredible organization.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: It's called One Simple Wish.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Jordanna Merkin was the one who really alerted us to this.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: If you haven't listened to Jordanna Merkin's podcast, episode it's fantastic, and it's about messaging and storytelling as well.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: But let me tell you what happened with One Simple Wish.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: This is an incredible organization.
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: They're working in foster care and they are literally taking.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: You know, spreading love and hope to people who are working in foster care.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: You know spreading love and hope to people who are impacted by foster care and childhood trauma, and so I love that.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: They say that no one ever ages out of their support.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: So they're working with kids and adults who've been through the system.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: It's an incredible organization.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: They get this amazing opportunity to go on a national talk show and share this incredible story.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: They're bringing one of their couples together who met through the foster care system.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: They're getting married.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: They have a beautiful story.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: They think they know what the story is, and this is a situation where the leadership and the storyteller were on the same page.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: However, the more they kept co-building the script with this national talk show, it started to really deviate from the mission, from the values, and so they put up this incredible post and I'm going to link to it in the show notes the before and the after.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: That basically says we were supposed to be on a plane today.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: We were supposed to be headed to LA to talk with a major national public about our mission.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: But the script and the trajectory of this conversation shifted enough that it no longer supported our values and none of us felt comfortable enough.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: And while we recognize that we are missing such an opportunity to sit down with a celebrity and share our work, we cannot ethically and fundamentally do this and still hold our heads high.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: And their ED put that out on an Instagram and put it on their social channels, and it was so raw and so powerful.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: And so she pulled what we call the Becky straw effect, because Becky straw shared a similar story on her podcast, episode 220 a couple seasons ago And they said we're not going to be on TV today And because we are missing the opportunity to connect with all of these individuals.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: Here's how you can help us share why you love one simple wish.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: Share it on your socials, talk about what it's meant to you And, if you feel compelled, here's a way that somebody can give.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: And guess what, john, you know what happened?
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: I mean the public support for it went just like the adventure project.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: And I'm posting the after effect of why they turned down.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: It was a letter from their CEO.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: There's two posts about why they didn't do it.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: And guess what?
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: If you look, even in the comments, it's like a $10,000 gift just came in.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: You know, we have new followers, we have new subscribers, we have new donors and they held true to their values alongside their board, their storytellers and their beneficiaries.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: And what a beautiful way to walk through co-building together.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Holy heck, i mean.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: And what a cool example that's right here in this moment.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: That's really complex and really challenging and very public at the same time.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: So pour into that case study.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: We'll link it up in the show notes.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you, jordanna, for lifting that to us.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: And here's the thing you can tell from hanging around this episode today we love storytelling.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: We've given examples of just the power of unlocking it And we believe so much in it that Becky and I have spent some time starting to develop what are the frameworks that we've not only just learned through talking to some of the best storytellers in the world, but also through building fundraising campaigns that turned into fire, like in our nonprofit work and how we rippled that out, and so we're launching that all into storytelling for good.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: It's a four-week course that's happening this summer.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: The wait list is live right this very moment.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: You can actually join the course now with at weareforgoodcom slash storytelling And we're just putting all sorts of resources and community wrapped around this course and you get to hang with us at the same time.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: So it's going to be really great offering.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: What else do you want to add about it, bea?
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: I think I just want to tell everyone that this is not a basic course.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: We want to hold your hand through this.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: We've put together an actionable workbook for you, templates.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: There's a story bank.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: You're going to see the We Are For Good voice style guide up front and up close of how we even tone set with the way that we storytell.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: We're going to help you access this massive toolkit of interview questions, checklists, pro tips, so much more, and we're going to have live coaching and insight, not only just from John and I, but from other storytellers and people going through the course, and we just think that learning and community feels better.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: Getting ideas of what's working from the collective is a powerful, powerful weapon for you to have in your toolkit.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: So check it out.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: Go to the website.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: We're going to repeat it just one more time It's weareforgoodcom backslash storytelling.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: We want to see you there.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: Let's all elevate our storytelling game, because this is the moment to lean in and humanize.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're sending you a high five.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: You've got this.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: If you're looking for more resources, i hope you'll join us in the storytelling for good course this summer.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: But have a great Friday, friends.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: Bye y'all.
• 22:57
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• 22:59
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• 23:31
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• 23:32
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