Latest / Bookies' Favourite / Women's Prize for Fiction 2026 | Shortlist Predictions | Gloria Don't Speak by Lucy Apps | Review & Author Interview

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Women's Prize for Fiction 2026 | Shortlist Predictions | Gloria Don't Speak by Lucy Apps | Review & Author Interview · Bookies' Favourite

0:10
Welcome to the Club bookies favorite book club.
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We read literary shortlists and award-winning novels.
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We are an independent podcast with no official links to the
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awards we discuss. This episode we are talking
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about the Women's Prize for Fiction.
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The award was established with the aim to highlight and remedy
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the sexist imbalance in coverage, respect and reverence
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given to women writers by offering a platform for their
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work to shine. In this episode, we're going to
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discuss some of the books that have been long listed ahead of
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the shortlist, and in particular, we are going to have
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a discussion about Gloria Don't Speak by Lucy Apps, published by
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Weather Glass Books. And after we've discussed Gloria
0:53
Don't Speak, we will be interviewing Lucy Apps herself
0:57
about the book. You will be interviewing Lucy
1:00
Apps herself. I will be interviewing Lucy
1:02
Apps. Lucy on Lucy, you can follow us
1:05
on Instagram and Goodreads at bookies favorite book club and
1:09
e-mail us.bookiesfavoritebookclub@gmail.com.
1:12
All of our socials and e-mail addresses are in the
1:14
description. I'm journalist Aaron Rice at
1:18
Aaron Rice Media. Going to give a summary about
1:20
yourself. I'm not a woman, honorary woman,
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not a woman, but I am for this episode.
1:28
I am I'm Lucy and my Instagram handle is Books 2026 Books with
1:35
AZ. Yeah, if you want to become one
1:37
of my 5 followers, you can find me there and follow me and watch
1:40
out for my very sparse postings about different books.
1:45
Aaron, have you read any of the long list?
1:49
I promise I appreciate women writers, I really do, but I have
1:54
only read one book from this entire 16 book long list.
2:00
Like this is a very long long list.
2:02
Yeah, it's too, it's too much pressure to try and read that
2:05
long list. It's like I just about read like
2:08
the international Booker and the Booker, but like 16 just pushes
2:12
it. Like I think, I think it's
2:14
mentally it pushes it out of range for me.
2:16
But yes, I've read four and we have, I believe we've we've both
2:21
read Audition is our one book. Yeah, So Auditioned by Katie
2:25
Kitamara and published by Fern Press whenever we discussed it
2:29
originally. I think it is a good book club
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book. I think it's good to have a
2:33
discussion. I wasn't in love with it, and I
2:37
was kind of disappointed, which now that I think about it, like,
2:41
I don't know why I was disappointed because it was
2:43
doing something experimental. It was doing something
2:46
different. It just didn't capture me.
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So the one and only book that I read, I don't know if I'm
2:52
convinced that I wanted on the the shortlist, but
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interestingly, the shortlist is going to be comprised of six
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books. So we're going to have 10 to
3:01
chop from the long list. I would be excited to see other
3:07
books that aren't auditioned there.
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I would like to expand my horizons and have my attention
3:13
drawn to new books. How about you?
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And let's see what we we've covered every book that that you
3:21
have read apart from Gloria Don't speak.
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And so let's start with the benefactors.
3:28
Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
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I want to to say that I would like Audition to be on the short
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list. I hope that it is not one of the
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10 books that is called. I think it's really, really
3:38
good. I sometimes will dabble into
3:41
reading a couple of books from the Woman's Prize and sometimes
3:45
I've been kind of a bit disappointed with some of them.
3:48
I think it's just chance based because I think there's amazing
3:51
women's prize winners in the past, amazing women's prize
3:55
nominated books. So I know it's of a really high
3:57
standard. It's just been in recent years
3:59
that I've not enjoyed them as much.
4:00
The ones that I have read I've kind of accidentally read as in
4:03
they've been another list. So like the Booker Prize, the
4:06
Benefactors is set in Belfast. So I obviously read that.
4:09
What I would say is that of the four books that I have read,
4:14
like they all deserve to be on the long list, like 100%.
4:17
They're all really, really good books.
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I would three of them really stand out to me and I would
4:23
actually be quite upset if all three aren't on the short list.
4:26
As you mentioned there, The Benefactors by Wendy Erskine and
4:31
that's published by Skeptor. So you previously did an
4:36
episode. If people are interested in your
4:40
thoughts on that, they can go check out your episode that we
4:44
did almost a year ago now, and that was with Stacey.
4:50
Yes, I was lucky enough to discuss the benefactors with
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Stacey, who is on Instagram, at What Stacey read next.
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She's absolutely brilliant and you should definitely follow
5:00
her. We discussed the Benefactors by
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Wendy Erskine. I also have been to see Wendy
5:04
Erskine speak so much about her book.
5:06
I actually think if she saw me in the street she'd think I was
5:09
stalking her. The amount of like Wendy or skin
5:12
based events I'm going to and I think she's going to be at
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Belfast Book Festival this year and again I probably will be
5:18
like front row seat, get her to sign my bra or something
5:21
ridiculous. Well, that that book was
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awarded, I guess the title of Waterstones Irish Book of the
5:28
year in 2025. Obviously I haven't read the
5:31
benefactors, but I know a lot about it just from the episode
5:36
that that you did. And to me, it's is really
5:41
striking, especially today, the day of recording him, because
5:47
someone that I have worked closely with before, Kelly
5:50
Bonner at BBC News NI and has just covered a story about the
5:56
use of pimping websites in Northern Ireland and the women
6:00
that are kind of trafficked into that.
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And there's just some really powerful stories and hearing of
6:07
those experiences. And from what I understand the
6:10
that is at least an element of this.
6:12
That's where the title of that book comes from, the the
6:15
benefactors. Is that right?
6:17
Yeah, it's kind of like a Only Fans version of the apps where
6:20
it's like men are rich men are sticking to to women across the
6:24
world. Yeah, no, the Benefactors is
6:26
fantastic. And honestly, I would be very,
6:28
very upset if it's not in the shortlist.
6:32
And I'll be furious on Wendy's behalf if that's the case.
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Wendy is amazing. Like, I always think it's it's
6:39
really cool to like live in a city and then someone do so
6:43
well, that's like from the same city as you.
6:46
Kind of how you feel about like Milkman by Anna Burns, which won
6:50
the Booker Prize, the first one from Belfast to do that.
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So I'm hoping that Wendy does it sometime soon so she's got her
6:58
second novel out ASAP. So then, and when it came to the
7:01
Booker Prize 2025, on that short list, there was Audition, which
7:06
we've already discussed, and there was also Flashlight.
7:11
I still haven't read that book even though it was on that
7:15
shortlist. Um, but you did read it.
7:18
What were your thoughts on that one?
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So I really, I did like, I really enjoy it.
7:21
It's not one of the ones that I think I'd be devastated if it's
7:24
not in the shortlist, but I would be happy enough to see it
7:26
in the shortlist. But it's very long, loads of
7:29
really, really interesting bits and pieces and a lot of the
7:33
stuff I thought was very good. I think it could have done with
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a lot of editing and it shouldn't maybe have been a 400
7:37
plus page book. It should have maybe been a
7:39
shorter book. But again, like it's fine, you
7:42
know it, it is still like a really good book.
7:44
I just think it has more obvious flaws than the the other three.
7:47
But benefactors in audition, I think they'll be tears.
7:50
So that that was flashlight by Susan Choi and that was
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published by Jonathan Kipp. Before we jump into Gloria,
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don't speak and have a deeper conversation on that one.
8:00
Do you want to run through some books that that you would be
8:05
interested in making it to the shortlist?
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I know neither of us have read any more of these books, but
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just from from what you know, let's throw it back and forth to
8:13
each other and and quickly chat about.
8:16
I want to stop you there before we do this and say, you say
8:21
Gloria, don't speak. And in my head, it was Gloria.
8:25
Don't speak. Like.
8:28
I feel like the. Do I have the intonation right?
8:31
Yeah, it's so. Interesting, because obviously
8:32
there's no intonation in the title.
8:34
So like I just took it as Gloria don't speak.
8:38
Like Gloria don't speak and you've gone.
8:40
Gloria, don't speak. Well, as we said, we will be
8:44
diving further into Gloria don't speak or Gloria don't speak.
8:50
But if if you want to throw, throw out one of your picks that
8:56
that you would be interested in in reading about if it did make
8:59
it to the shortlist. So one of the ones I'm kind of
9:02
interested in, and maybe this is the only reason I am interested
9:06
in it. It's just recently been
9:08
shortlisted for the Carol Shields Prize, which is a prize
9:13
for women and non binary people in the United States and Canada.
9:18
So this book is A Guardian and a Thief by Mega Majumdar.
9:23
So I believe it's set in Kolkata.
9:27
And you know me, I love an Indian book, so I'm all there
9:31
for that. What about you Aaron?
9:33
What would you like to see? Yeah well I have seen that book
9:37
around a lot and I would not be offended if it made it onto the
9:43
shortlist. The first book that I'm going to
9:46
throw out there is Heart the Lover by Lily King.
9:51
I honestly don't really know much about this book at all but
9:55
Jake who Co hosts the sister podcast to this one, the novel
10:01
series he has read Heart the Lover and he loved it so much.
10:06
I think he gave it 5 out of five and Goodreads he gives some five
10:11
out of fives but but it's not all that common and so I I would
10:16
definitely be interested in reading it since it does come so
10:20
highly rated. My next choice is parody Sue 17
10:23
by Hannah Lilith Savi. The only reason I've chosen
10:27
this, and I could be completely wrong, is that I believe Book
10:30
Fair who are a fantastic podcast in the states.
10:35
They read this recently and reviewed it in their kind of
10:38
Woman's Prize episode. I haven't listened to the parts
10:42
where they speak about this book because I don't want to spoil it
10:43
for myself, but I would be really keen to read it.
10:46
I believe that it kind of moves about Palestine and Kuwait and
10:53
New York and yeah, all sorts of places.
10:57
My next choice is going to be The Correspondent by Virginia
11:00
Evans. I have seen this book around so
11:03
much. I'm sure everyone else has.
11:05
And for me it's the the book with the Robin on the cover.
11:10
And like that, that's just how I recognize it in my mind.
11:13
This book, I have heard good things from another person that
11:18
that I work with, Carrie, she has been reading it and she has
11:23
been enjoying it a lot. It's also been selected by Reese
11:29
Witherspoon for part of her book club.
11:31
And so I think it's drawn a lot of attention to it.
11:34
And it's also been made into a movie right now with Jane Fonda.
11:38
And from from what I understand, it's almost like written in the
11:42
same style as the colour purple where it's all written as
11:47
letters. I've read the colour purple and
11:49
I actually didn't remember that it was written in letters.
11:52
Yeah, the colour purple is like she writes letters to her
11:55
sister. Yeah, she writes letters to God
11:57
and then she writes letters to her sister.
12:00
Yeah. What?
12:04
Why is that weird? I had to.
12:06
I had to read it. I had to read it so that I could
12:09
go see the musical. OK, so many things to go on
12:14
going on here. There's a musical.
12:16
Yes, there's a movie musical with.
12:19
Whoopi Goldberg. Well, she's in it, yes, but not
12:24
not the original. She's in both.
12:26
I feel like you're mixing. I think you're mixing up the
12:30
colour purple with sister act. Two different things.
12:36
Yeah, where she where she wears a purple habit?
12:41
Yeah, those are two different things.
12:42
Are and so no. No, no, no, no with Fantasia.
12:47
What are you saying to me? I think that's the name of the
12:50
the actress who plays the main character.
12:54
It's it's really good. It only came out like 2 years
12:56
ago, but it's on stage and Cynthia Revill played the main
13:01
character. You read this book and you
13:03
didn't tell me you read The Color Purple and you never
13:09
thought to mention it. It's just never come up until
13:12
now because this is written in a similar format.
13:16
I just I actually like you do learn something new everyday
13:20
that has I don't know if you could have surprised me more.
13:25
Speaking of surprises, what else is on your interest list?
13:31
I guess for the shortlist. This is basically like, you
13:34
know, when you go on, you scroll through Instagram and you're
13:37
like, that cover looks so good. But I mean, I try not to judge a
13:41
book by a cover, especially nowadays when I think a lot of
13:43
covers are very, very good. But A Beast Slinks Towards
13:48
Beijing by Alice Evelyn Yang I would be keen to read just
13:53
because I like the the cover. That's that's it.
13:58
That's as good a reason as any, I think.
14:00
There's definitely a few books on this list that have really
14:04
interesting covers. Imagine it's going to be
14:06
interesting. It's about, it's a magical
14:08
realism, I believe is in it. So that's a plus for me.
14:12
And Japan's occupation in China, part of it apparently is set
14:17
during the Cultural Revolution, which is another area of history
14:21
that I don't really know that much about, but I actually find
14:22
really interesting. And there's a book called 9th
14:25
Building that was nominated. It was long listed.
14:30
Sorry for the International Booker a few years ago and it
14:34
was one of my favorite books that year of the list.
14:36
It wasn't shortlisted, but it was really, really good and it
14:38
dealt with, it goes almost kind of semi autobiographical and it
14:43
dealt with the Cultural Revolution in China and I I
14:47
didn't know anything about the Cultural Revolution in China,
14:50
but then reading that book really opened my eyes to it and
14:53
I thought it was an absolutely fantastic book.
14:55
I don't know if this book's good, but I recommend 9th
14:58
Building. My final choice is going to be
15:01
Dominion by E Kitchens. Again, I don't really know
15:06
anything about this book, but just the concept seems seems
15:10
interesting. It's based in Mississippi.
15:12
Seems like it's a religious background and lots of sin.
15:19
At least that's part of the tagline.
15:21
There's a snake in a goblet on the cover, similar to you.
15:26
Very shallow, but it just it strikes me as something that I
15:30
would be interested in. Love it, just go for the cover.
15:34
Let's dive a little bit further into one of the books that's on
15:39
the long list. Yes.
15:40
So we'll be speaking about glory.
15:42
I don't speak. I know you did not read this
15:45
book, Aaron, but I did. We were given a copy.
15:48
We're gifted a copy, and I'm really glad we were.
15:51
It was one that was kind of on my radar.
15:54
But it's really, really fantastic.
15:56
It's very different from I think most books I've read in the
16:00
past. Yeah, so, so this book and we
16:03
were gifted it to review. So you read it.
16:07
And if you just want to give me a brief, did you want to dive
16:12
into spoilers? Oh, yeah, sorry.
16:15
From this point onwards there will be spoilers.
16:18
I can't speak about a book without giving spoilers.
16:20
So if you want, if you want to read Gloria don't speak, which I
16:23
think you really should because it's absolutely phenomenal.
16:25
And it's a, it's a sort of debut novel by Lucy Apps and, and
16:31
yeah, it is really fantastic and she's done a fantastic job on
16:35
it. And it's also published by
16:36
Weatherglass and we love small presses and I have since got a
16:42
subscription to Weatherglass for their press.
16:46
They only only do three books a year, so I've only got 3 books
16:48
in the subscription, but I'm, I think that they, they seem to do
16:51
really fascinating stuff. And I think they have Neil
16:53
Griffiths, umm, next book is that he's done a memoir.
16:58
So I'm. I'm hoping that that comes up in
17:00
my subscription, but yeah, really, really fantastic.
17:03
I don't, I don't buy subscriptions unless the books
17:06
are really good. So.
17:07
And it's the only Weather Glass book I've read, so I couldn't
17:10
recommend it more. Yes.
17:12
So basically it's told from the point of view of Gloria, who is
17:16
19 and it is the summer of 1999 and Gloria has learning
17:22
difficulties. She lives with her mother, her
17:27
basically she, she's finished school at 19 and then has to
17:33
kind of deal with life without any structure.
17:37
And so as her mum is going to work, she's going and sitting in
17:41
parks in London and she meets Jack.
17:45
And Jack is a very, don't know what the word is here, but he's
17:52
a very troubled young man and he basically he needs someone to
17:59
talk to or talk at about all the stresses and things he's going
18:03
through. So he when he meets Gloria on a
18:05
park bench, he finds a kind of captive audience.
18:09
And I think that Gloria finds something in this as well,
18:11
because Gloria has someone to talk to who's not treating her
18:14
like a child. And but as we go through the
18:19
book, Jack becomes more and more on, on hinged, I would say, and
18:28
his reliance on, on Gloria becomes stronger and eventually
18:32
when Gloria is trying to, to leave him.
18:35
He. Commits an extremely violent act
18:38
and then we jump ahead to 2017 and 2019 at the end of the book
18:45
and Jack's coming out of prison and Gloria has still always had
18:51
him in her head and and she has to deal with the fact that he is
18:56
not free. And she doesn't really.
19:00
I think I think one of the strongest parts of the book is
19:04
that because she doesn't she's not very verbal.
19:06
She doesn't speak to a lot of people and when they do ask her
19:09
questions, she finds answering them directly quite confusing.
19:13
A lot of the language in the book is her repeating things
19:16
people have said because she's obviously trying to find meaning
19:19
in them or she she can use those words for like a higher concept
19:24
or something. Something I think the book does
19:27
really well is the fact that she she doesn't fully get to speak
19:32
what she wants to say or go through anything or talk
19:36
anything through to anyone. And she kind of keeps Jack very
19:39
hidden from the people in her life.
19:42
And as we found out in the time jump 17 years later, she's
19:45
living in like assisted housing with a group of people.
19:48
She's quite she's reasonably free.
19:50
So she's able to go about in her her own, but like they do kind
19:54
of group events and everyone uses the same kitchen.
19:57
She does her own stuff. I think she never gets to speak
20:00
about Jack or the interaction she's had with Jack, But but
20:03
through her kind of thought process, you can tell that the
20:06
stuff that Jack's. Jack said to her in the past is
20:09
stuff that she really fixates on.
20:11
So what, what would you rate this book out of five?
20:13
It sounds interesting and, and it sounds like there's lots to
20:17
say about it, but what, what would you give it out of five?
20:20
And do you hope it makes it to the shortlist?
20:23
And do you think it will make it to the shortlist?
20:26
I do very much hope it makes it to the shortlist and I, I'm
20:30
going to, I'm actually going to guess it will be in the
20:32
shortlist and I will be really upset if it's not in the
20:34
shortlist because I think it's very, it's very good.
20:36
So I'd be very upset if it's not in the shortlist because I think
20:39
it definitely deserves to be there.
20:41
I hate reading books, but I know that that's a part of the
20:46
podcast. And I was thinking back and I
20:49
was like, I really actually wish I'd rated that Ghost driver hire
20:53
by Nell Osborne because I actually haven't stopped
20:55
thinking about it. And it's a really, really good
20:58
book. But at the moment, in my current
21:01
thoughts, I'm, I'm going to give this a four because I think it
21:04
did definitely like we don't off.
21:06
I don't think we often just we don't often give force.
21:09
Well, maybe I do. I think it's really different
21:12
and I think it really touches on things I hadn't really thought
21:15
of before. I think it didn't go the way I
21:17
expected it to go. And for a lot of the time I
21:21
expected it to go down a certain path.
21:24
And then when it didn't, and this is something for from my
21:28
conversation with Lucy that I actually found really, really
21:30
interesting was that she kind of said she had the characters and
21:34
then they just kind of did their own thing.
21:36
And I, I'm like thinking about it with with time, I'm like
21:41
that. That is so true.
21:42
It's kind of like she's put these two people in this
21:45
situation and gone. What would happen?
21:48
How would other people react to them?
21:50
And you can definitely tell that from it.
21:53
It's so character LED and I, I absolutely love it and I think
21:57
it's really, really fantastic. Now, would you like to hear from
22:01
Lucy? Yeah, yeah.
22:03
So, so you you had the opportunity to speak with Lucy
22:07
about this book. I started by asking Lucy if her
22:10
day job as AGP affected her writing.
22:15
Yeah. So mostly I would like write
22:17
when I get home from work or, you know, like because I love
22:22
writing. So if I've got, if I've got a
22:25
novel on the go that's kind of going well, then it's kind of
22:28
all I want to do. So I would come home from work
22:30
and write or like on my days off, if I go and see a friend,
22:35
then I'd come home and write or whatever.
22:37
I would just do it whenever I could really.
22:39
I mean, there were there have been times where with work where
22:42
I haven't been able to write because it work has just been
22:45
too intense. But generally speaking, I pretty
22:50
much just find time. With regards to how kind of
22:54
serious the subject matter and how maybe serious isn't the
22:58
right word, but like how important subject matter it is,
23:01
did you feel any pressure for like how you were going to
23:04
portray Gloria as someone with learning difficulties?
23:07
I wouldn't say so because because I was writing it.
23:11
Obviously you, I mean, I write most, most novels that I've
23:14
written. I wrote.
23:15
I kind of write while I'm writing with this sort of vague
23:17
hope of it getting published. But I don't think I really
23:19
necessarily thought that was going to happen.
23:23
I was just writing to write and to write as well as I could, but
23:27
not really with a sense of pressure about representation
23:29
because like, I didn't necessarily think that it would
23:33
end up being published. That's really interesting.
23:36
So do you think that it made you like, through your kind of work,
23:40
relate more or like was it something that you just felt
23:43
like you had to say? You know, when I was in medical
23:45
school, I had a job working on play schemes and after school
23:49
clubs and stuff with kids with special educational needs and
23:53
disabilities and got to know like some young people sort of
23:57
all the way up to 1819 and got to know some families and stuff.
24:01
And then after, when I reached a point in my career where I could
24:06
have a little bit more time, I started volunteering with adult
24:10
women with learning disabilities.
24:12
And it's certainly like knowing people with LD.
24:16
It does make you realise just how infrequently they're
24:19
represented in like TV and film and books and stuff.
24:24
And then when they are represented, I don't think it's
24:26
always done well. So I did want to write something
24:30
that centred an especially is centred an adult with a learning
24:32
disability. Like I say, I wasn't necessarily
24:36
thinking it was ever going to get published, but it was
24:38
definitely something that I wanted to do because it was an
24:41
experience that I was kind of interested in exploring and that
24:44
I just felt you didn't really see kind of represented or
24:47
explored. There's a part in the book where
24:49
Gloria is arrested, and I think in the media and the way we
24:53
portray people getting arrested, you don't actually think of it
24:56
in the minutiae of every little thing that's happening.
24:59
Whereas it's like from Gloria's perspective, you really slow
25:02
down like what's happening. And I find that like a really
25:05
interesting way of going into someone's head and being like
25:08
this. This isn't the same for you as
25:10
it is maybe for for me. Yeah, I think, I mean, that bit
25:14
I found a bit difficult to write.
25:16
Like most of the time I don't mind writing, writing kind of
25:20
difficult stuff happening. But that particular moment, I
25:23
think I when I first wrote it, I softened it quite a lot.
25:25
And then I was like, no, it wouldn't.
25:26
It wouldn't be like that. It would be.
25:29
So I kind of had to go back and rewrite it, but yeah, it's,
25:35
yeah, it's it's an interesting point, you're right.
25:37
But I think I think getting arrested for anyone who hasn't
25:40
been arrested before is often quite actually quite a traumatic
25:42
experience. And like you say, it's one that
25:46
we kind of gloss over and don't really think about very much.
25:49
But yeah, I think it often is. And then obviously, especially
25:51
if you've got sort of glorious set of needs, then particularly
25:56
so. And actually, like I think there
25:58
is a higher, I mean, it could be wrong about this, but I think
26:02
that proportionally people with LD are more likely to kind of
26:06
come into kind of come into conflict with the legal system.
26:11
So I think that that I think that there's kind of a huge
26:13
amount of neuro diversity and learning disability like
26:16
proportionally in people in prison and stuff.
26:19
So yeah, it's interesting to think about how that would be
26:23
for someone like Gloria. Yeah, I, I think that I find it
26:28
really interesting how she does kind of interact with public
26:31
services. And I kind of, I don't know, I
26:36
kind of thought the book was maybe going to go down a route
26:39
where, you know, she meets someone who really, like
26:40
understands her. And then the book doesn't really
26:43
do that. And she doesn't, you think at
26:45
all these points when she meets kind of public service people
26:48
and kind of hope, oh, she's going to, she's going to make a
26:51
connection and someone's going to understand her.
26:54
And I think something that you do quite fairly is the fact that
26:57
it's very hard for the police to understand her in some ways as
27:00
well, like. Yeah, she's.
27:02
Finding it so hard to express herself.
27:05
And she's also finding it hard to understand other people's
27:07
expressions. And I find it really.
27:09
Yeah, I, I was, I suppose I was kind of worried from the start.
27:12
I was like is, you know, is this going to be like AI don't know,
27:15
like a portrayal where she is understood, which I think is
27:19
probably quite bleakly not what actually happens in life.
27:24
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just wanted it.
27:26
I, I wanted the book to feel really real.
27:31
And so yeah, I, I'm kind of, I think it may be especially
27:35
someone who works in public services.
27:38
I do find it slightly annoying when they're the answer, when in
27:41
real life they probably wouldn't be in fiction.
27:45
So because it's just not, it's just probably like, you know,
27:49
most, I think most people working in public services,
27:51
you're very overstretched. You don't have a huge amount of
27:55
time as a resource, which somebody like Gloria would need.
28:01
And it's just it's, you know, I think there's a lot of people
28:05
out there who are kind of doing their best in a difficult
28:08
situation. And there's other people who are
28:09
quite dated and maybe have given up on doing their best.
28:15
But yeah, I I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to kind of find an
28:18
easy solution. They supported me and maybe my
28:20
my worry and fear when I started reading it was the way that you
28:23
were AGPI was like, is there going to be like AGP character
28:27
that kind of comes in and saves the day?
28:30
I mean, I can't think of any particular examples, but I know
28:32
that I have seen it in kind of books and films where actually
28:36
like, you know, a sort of doctor or someone does come in and save
28:39
the day. I always find it slightly
28:40
annoying. So it's not something that it's
28:44
not something that I would do. She's, she's still on her own
28:47
and I think that's what connects her to, to Jackie.
28:50
Obviously is is not the best person to be connected with, but
28:54
I think that in some ways they're almost destined to to
28:58
meet and have this bond. I think there's a moment where,
29:01
like later on in the book, where Gloria's thinking about Jack and
29:05
she's, she sort of thinks that she remembers how it felt to
29:09
have someone really want to see her and to kind of be with her.
29:12
And I think he probably felt the same way about her.
29:14
Like, I don't think he had many people in his life that were
29:17
kind of really happy to see him or really wanted his company.
29:22
It's quite heartbreaking at times, the book.
29:24
I think one of the kind of saddest parts is the Mia family.
29:29
She obviously wants to have some kind of resolve happen.
29:34
I suppose everyone when something traumatic happens,
29:37
especially with it, when it involves the law, we get some
29:39
kind of restoration or some kind of sense of justice.
29:43
But she's kind of left in the scenario where she can't
29:46
apologize and she also can't understand what's fully happened
29:51
because no one's clearly like telling her.
29:53
So she she's, she wants this resolved, but she can't get it.
29:56
The way I wrote the book was I basically just started off with
30:00
Gloria and Jack and kind of figured out what happened as it
30:05
as it happened. And then, you know, you create a
30:07
situation and you're like, well, realistically, how would these
30:10
people react? How would Gloria react?
30:12
What would she want? What would she do?
30:14
And then help people around her react to that.
30:17
And so I don't think that I necessarily set out consciously
30:20
to go, well, let's demonstrate this particular desire.
30:24
But it was just that that felt to me like what she would, what
30:30
she would want, how she would feel.
30:32
And then obviously, I think the way that the family react to her
30:34
is, is completely natural, you know, like it's how I think it's
30:39
how most people would react, but also obviously isn't what she
30:44
was hoping for. I mean, I guess on one level I
30:47
am thinking about stuff, but it's, it's hard to explain the
30:49
process because in some, some ways I'm just seeing things
30:52
happen in my mind. I'm writing them down.
30:54
And then on another level, I am thinking about it.
30:58
But yeah, I, I think I, I just write things and I'll write
31:02
things and then think, actually that's not working because it's
31:05
not, it's probably not going where I want it to go or not say
31:07
what I wanted to say. But I wasn't, I wasn't when I
31:10
was writing like a lot of the moments in this book, I wasn't
31:13
consciously thinking, let me demonstrate this or let me show
31:15
that I was just like, this is what is character.
31:17
This is this is kind of who she is.
31:19
This is what's happened. And this is how she's going to
31:21
react to it. And then how do people around
31:23
her react to it? I feel like London's obviously
31:25
like a huge part of the book. To me it almost couldn't happen
31:28
anywhere. Else it's set in Newham.
31:30
And if I think it very specifically feels like the
31:34
descriptions and everything are very kind of specific to Newham,
31:38
whether the story could have happened elsewhere, it could
31:40
probably at least have happened in another London Morrow.
31:43
But Newham's just where I know really, really well.
31:46
So that's essentially why I said it there.
31:48
This is your debut novel. Have you had anything else like
31:51
published, like short stories or anything else?
31:53
I've had a couple of short stories published in the past
31:56
where they, I think they kind of didn't win competitions, but
31:58
like got shortlisted for competitions and ended up
32:00
getting published. But that's it, really.
32:04
So, yeah, this is the first, the first kind of real thing that
32:08
I've had published because I wrote this novel in 2018 and
32:13
then I was just sending it out to people and not really getting
32:15
any interest. And I was kind of tinkering with
32:17
it myself. But I think you reach a point
32:19
where you're like, I don't know how to improve this.
32:22
I mean, I can see multiple ways that I could change it, but I
32:24
don't know how to make it actually better or stronger.
32:27
So then at that, when you're at that point to then have somebody
32:30
else come in and be like, this is what how I see the book and
32:34
it aligns with how I personally see the book.
32:36
And this is what I think, you know, are its strengths.
32:40
And like this is what I think are its weaknesses.
32:41
And this is what you need to do to kind of improve it.
32:44
Like that was actually great. It was like a light bulb moment.
32:49
And then, yeah, so I was, I was very, very happy to get that
32:53
kind of feedback because I kind of felt at that point like I was
32:55
just going round in circles and not really getting anywhere.
33:01
So to have to have a kind of sort of critical feedback from
33:06
someone who really was into the book and really got it and knew
33:09
what they were talking about was just brilliant.
33:11
So the woman's prize, like you're been long listed for that
33:14
to do, Did you, did you expect it?
33:16
What was that? Because I'd heard, to be fair, I
33:18
had heard buzz about this book before it was long listed.
33:23
So was it, did it come as a surprise or was it something
33:25
that you thought? Yeah, it did.
33:27
I mean, I think you're obviously you have to submit it to get it
33:29
long listed. So I knew that it had been
33:31
submitted, but to actually think that it was actually going to be
33:35
long listed, no, I wasn't expecting that at all.
33:39
I I think I don't know. I just there was, it was a
33:43
complete, complete surprise to me.
33:45
I was, yeah. I was really happy with it,
33:47
like. I mean, it absolutely deserves
33:49
to be. Like I've definitely read some.
33:52
I always read a couple of them every year and then there's
33:54
definitely been some some other years.
33:56
I actually think most of the ones I've read this year I've
33:58
been ever really, really enjoyed.
34:00
There's been a couple of years where I've been like I've not
34:01
I've not liked them as much, but this one 100% deserves to be on
34:05
serves to be in the shortlist observes to win.
34:07
Is there anything like you're reading right now?
34:09
Well, I'm reading the Correspondent, which is on the
34:12
long list, and I'm also reading a book.
34:15
I don't know if I'm saying her name right.
34:17
Her name is Asia J Bar. It's a book called Women of
34:19
Algiers in Their Apartment. So it's kind of stories about
34:24
Algerian women, I think kind of from the 50s through to the 90s.
34:29
It's quite interesting. Yeah, that is, yeah, like that
34:33
it's just. Getting to kind of know and
34:35
understand different aspects of the world you.
34:38
Know is there any books that kind of like inspired you to
34:41
write? I mean, I always loved writing
34:43
and I loved like there was loads of different kind of YA books
34:47
that I really enjoyed, quite a spectrum of them.
34:52
There was a writer that I read when I was kind of in my late
34:55
teens, Andrea Dwalkin. I used to read like her stuff.
34:59
And she just had this whole kind of swagger where she, she
35:02
basically sort of implied that like, you know, being a writer,
35:06
you was going to change the world and that it was really
35:08
brave and revolutionary just to write a book and stuff.
35:12
And I mean it the way she wrote about it.
35:14
I've kind of gone back and read her stuff since and been a bit
35:17
like, OK, fair enough, right. But when I read it when I was
35:21
younger, I was just like, wow, it was kind of quite.
35:25
It was, it was quite, I don't know.
35:27
She's definitely got a poise. Interesting.
35:31
And that kind. Of grabbed my attention.
35:34
Yeah. I mean, I think I was reading,
35:38
I've read a lot of different stuff and it's all all kind of
35:40
like made me go, I think if you, I think I don't know what made
35:45
me want to be a writer, to be honest.
35:47
I think I just started doing it and I enjoyed it.
35:49
It's kind of, I think anyone who likes reading has probably
35:52
always got it in the back of their head that they would like
35:53
to write a book. And then one time I just did it
35:58
and was like, OK, this is pretty fun, let me do it again.
36:02
I've got loads of novels I haven't published.
36:05
I just keep writing, like obsessively so yeah, I've got
36:10
quite key novels that haven't published.
36:11
But no, it's not to say that they're really good, but they do
36:15
exist. Is there no one where there's
36:17
AGP that saves the world? No, I did write one about junior
36:22
doctors, but it wasn't like they certainly didn't save the world.
36:27
I do, to be honest, I don't particularly.
36:29
I did write it like a few people said to me, or maybe you should
36:32
write something about being a doctor.
36:34
And there's this book called The House of God that is kind of
36:38
like a bit of a cult classic in kind of medical circles.
36:41
And then there's a book called Bodies by Jim Mercurio that I
36:44
think is probably inspired by A House of God by Samuel Scheme.
36:48
And I read both of those and I was like, OK, let me just write
36:51
a kind of female version of this.
36:54
And so I wrote that, but actually I didn't really, I
36:57
didn't really enjoy writing it as much as I normally enjoy
36:59
writing because I wanted to go home from work and switch off,
37:02
not go home from work and write about work.
37:05
Yeah. So I don't think I'll do it
37:07
again. Thank you so much for like
37:09
coming on and chatting It's. Great.
37:11
Thank you. Really good luck for the
37:13
shortlist and you absolutely deserve it because it's a
37:16
phenomenal book. Well, that was.
37:18
Really insightful and really interesting.
37:20
I think that both your discussion on the book, so
37:25
you're you're kind of the questions that that you prompted
37:28
from Lucy and her answers really provide a lot of like guidance
37:34
to me as somebody who hasn't even read the book.
37:36
It's still an interesting topic that that I would definitely be
37:41
interested in reading. Reading the book now.
37:43
I actually think you'd really like it.
37:45
I think it's really good book. Well, after the International
37:49
Booker, there might be some free time to cover some of the books
37:55
on the Women's Prize for Fiction shortlist.
38:01
So if if anyone's interested in US potentially jumping into the
38:05
shortlist, then please get back to us.
38:08
And it's definitely something that that we would consider.
38:13
And I definitely think there have been absolutely fantastic
38:16
books on the list this year. So like, I have no hesitancy to
38:21
read more of them. Like, I really don't see when
38:23
the. I'm really excited for the short
38:24
list actually, because I'm gonna have to make some serious
38:27
decisions about whether or not I purchase a lot of the books.
38:30
But I would, yeah, I would love to see Speak Audition and the
38:35
benefactors in that list. And I will scream and cry if
38:39
they don't. And I will put if anybody
38:41
follows me on Instagram, I just put that tiny chef crying in
38:44
front of the book. So join the book club and read
38:47
along with us. We're still currently reading
38:50
the International Booker Prize shortlist as well.
38:53
This next episode we will be discussing Taiwan Travelogue by
38:57
Yung Shuang Shui, translated from Mandarin Chinese by Lin
39:01
King. If you liked our discussion on
39:04
this book, then you might be interested in our discussions on
39:09
any of the other books that are on the long list, which include
39:12
Audition, The Benefactors and Flashlight.
39:15
Our socials and e-mail are in the description.
39:18
Share your thoughts on what you want to be on the shortlist.
39:22
It is announced later today. Subscribe wherever you get your
39:25
podcasts and rate US five stars. That's all folks, goodbye.
39:31
Bookies out. Goodbye.