Latest / To The Moon With The Luna's Podcast / Bitcoin Was Meant To Be Spent l Adam Simecka

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Bitcoin Was Meant To Be Spent l Adam Simecka · To The Moon With The Luna's Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: I think that if more people understood how important it was to spend Bitcoin rather than just hodl, I think that the world would approach Bitcoin adoption a lot faster.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_04: And people would be more free because of it.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it would help divert some of the power and control away from the power structures that currently exist that do rob you every single day through inflation and money printing.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_04: And the fastest way away from that is through Bitcoin adoption.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that the lowest hanging fruit to Bitcoin adoption right now is for people to just get out and use Bitcoin in the Bitcoin economy.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_04: Go accept Bitcoin for something that you sell or produce or for your labor.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: Go spend Bitcoin with somebody that accepts Bitcoin.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_04: These things are things that any of us can do.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_04: We don't have to build a Bitcoin business.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: We don't have to start an awesome podcast like you guys have done.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_04: We don't, you know, you don't even need to do any of these really complicated things.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: You can just go live your life, switch your money to a better form of money, and Bitcoin will grow accordingly.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is brought to you by Micro Seed.
• 1:05
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• 1:11
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• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: If your seed phrase is still on paper, it's time to upgrade and take self-custody to the next level.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because not your keys, not your coins.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Go to microseed.io and use code LUNALUNA for a discount.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Or check the link in the description below.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to To the Moon with the Lunas.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: The Bitcoin price is sitting at 60K.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're joined with Adam Semeca, Bitcoin developer, founder of MANA, a self-custodial Bitcoin wallet and payments platform, creator of Bible Beats, and board vice president of Bitcoin is better.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Adam has spent years building tools that make Bitcoin easier to use in everyday life.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're going to talk about Bitcoin payments, self-custody, adoption, privacy, and where Bitcoin is headed next.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Adam, welcome to the show.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me, guys.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be here with y'all.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, this is awesome.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're so pumped up.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: I've been waiting to speak with you.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Just kind of what we shared offline.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I see mana everywhere.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: People are wearing mana gear.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, you know what?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: We need to talk to Adam and see what's going on with mana.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, just to uh for our listeners that don't know, uh if you don't mind sharing a little bit about uh your background and when you first kind of got introduced to Bitcoin.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um, so the short story is I uh I found Bitcoin when I was overseas in the military.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um I was working 24-hour shifts um and then I had 24 hours off.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_04: So it was 24 on, 24 off.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_04: So I had some free time to uh spend on, you know, just studying and and learning how to invest and save my money.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I started out with uh just educating myself on stocks.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_04: So I just I just learned you know a little bit about what the stock market was all about.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_04: And through that process, um I came across some stuff in you know what we would call cryptocurrency at this point.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and uh it kind of just blew my mind because it was actually an article about proof of work that I was reading.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um at the time it was actually an article about Ethereum, which um I'm no longer interested in at all, but it got me down the rabbit hole.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_04: And uh so uh throughout my journey, I kind of realized that um the real value um was in you know a network that essentially had solidified rules without any central issuer.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um and the only uh this uh sufficiently decentralized platform in existence that could be a form of money is Bitcoin.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and all a lot of these other projects, you know, try to do something similar, but uh the root uh problem of all these other projects is that they all are centralized and they have a central issuer and they can change the rules.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_04: And being able to change the rules, in my opinion, completely uh eliminates the possibility of ever being money.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um so that that's why that's why I kind of uh eventually found the the light of Bitcoin.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um I I built my first Bitcoin business in 2017.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's when I first started, at least.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then I launched that to the public in 2018.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: It was a um a plug-and-play Bitcoin miner company, so we uh produced uh miners uh software and hardware that we sold.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's basically a box that you could buy, you plug in and turn on, and it starts mining Bitcoin for you.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um and we were the first ones to do that with an ASIC.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and uh there are quite a few other people that are doing it now, but we were we were the first.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: And um we did that for a number of years, um, and then uh ultimately came to the point where I uh decided to take you know everything that I'd learned and foundation that I've built and turn that into something else, uh, which is mana.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_04: And so I focused most of my efforts on on mana nowadays.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but that's kind of where I came from.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks again for your service.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, how long did you serve for?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_04: Six years.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, I was in the Air Force, I was a firefighter.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um Wow, thank you.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're we appreciate that.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: We we appreciate that a lot, and uh just kind of like most Bitcoiners, they kind of get introduced by crypto, it gets us down the rabbit hole, and then we actually find what's what the good stuff is, right?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: The Bitcoin.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh you taking your skills, uh putting it to mana.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so what exactly uh for everyone listening, what is mana?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_04: So, broadly speaking, mana is a Bitcoin payment platform.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_04: So it uh it is for making Bitcoin payments.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_04: That's that's the focus and the goal.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um and you know, maybe even more specifically for folks like you and I, uh it is also a Bitcoin wallet.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: So uh a lot of people refer to Mana as a wallet because that is one of the primary functions.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_04: But it also has other features and functions too, uh centered around Bitcoin payments.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, for example, we have a point of sale system uh that allows merchants to uh build out their own store and run a point of sale that's more robust than just like a simple calculator.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: So you can add items and pictures and categories and taxes and tips if you want to do all that accounting and everything like that.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so it's a little bit more, you know, fully loaded, if you will, for uh for point of sale.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um so it's both sides.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's I guess the sender and the receiver, I should say.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_04: So whether you're a merchant wanting to accept Bitcoin payments or you're somebody that's wanting to send and manage Bitcoin payments, uh that's what we that's what we do.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, is it kind of like, I mean, say if someone was starting an Etsy uh account, right?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Would that be kind of similar to what that they would be doing?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: It would just be solely for Bitcoin to receive Bitcoin purchases.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_04: So Mana is self-custodial.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_04: That means you hold the keys.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's not uh a service that holds your Bitcoin for you or processes your Bitcoin.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_04: It is taking self-custody of the Bitcoin uh yourself.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_04: So everything is done and managed locally, which keeps everything safe and secure.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_04: And we can get more into that a little bit later too.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um but I'm I'm glad you kind of brought up the Etsy thing because that's that's a good, I think, picture of what people use the point of sale for.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: We have a lot of like small uh businesses that use this.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and they usually have like a tablet or even just you know on their their cell phone that they have, um, they'll have a mana shop and they can ring people up just like you know, a cash register basically, and accept Bitcoin payments on the spot.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so we have we have small businesses, we do have some some bigger businesses um that use mana.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then you know, there's there's also some like organizations, um, nonprofits and governments that use mana as well to process payments.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: So uh to add on to that, so um, if you can explain a little bit, uh, so why would uh mana benefit more than like let's just say lightning?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I know that's one of the payments that where people, you know, it sounds like it kind of dominates as it dominates as far as like, you know, payments for uh Bitcoin.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um this is this specifically and for like bigger like businesses, or is this or is this can be used for small and big businesses?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's a great question.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_04: So um universal compatibility is extremely pivotal, um, or I guess monumental for what mana does.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um lightning is a part of that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um so mana isn't uh a specific protocol.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh mana is just the app that allows you to interact with all the popular protocols in Bitcoin.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: So whether you're wanting to send over layer one on-chain payments or lightning or liquid or eCash, any of these things, you can communicate with all those protocols on mana.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_04: So if you have a balance on mana, you put some some Bitcoin in your mana app uh in the in the wallet, you can send to any of those uh types of um people.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm gathering this correctly, so it almost sounds like almost like a Venmo thing, but for like a business, right?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_04: I just can say you hit you hit that right on the right on the money.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that that's kind of been a philosophy of ours from the beginning.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um we wanted to make uh an app that was as easy to use as something like Venmo, um, which is really difficult with a self-custodial wallet because uh there's just a lot more complexity involved uh because ultimately it comes down to the user, right?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_04: There's not like a central uh database that stores these funds or users' data, which would make things like uh payments very easy, and has been actually relatively successful with centralized custodial wallets.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, there are plenty of them out there that work very well, but the drawback to those is is you're not the one that holds the keys to those Bitcoin, and you're at the mercy of somebody else.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um that means that they can, you know, they can monitor you.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_04: You have to ask them for permission if you want to send any type of a payment.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, and and they're ultimately they could potentially, you know, be nefarious and steal your money, or they could just go out of business and disappear and then your bitcoin's gone.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: So, and I say your Bitcoin, it's not really even your Bitcoin.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_04: If if it if you don't have the keys, it's not yours.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's super awesome because I think we are in a world where we're always using Venmo or Zell or, you know, those types of things.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that there's a component of where people who are merchants are wanting to sell things or, you know, those type they're have an easy one sounds like it's a one place, you know, one-stop shop where everyone can kind of just have their items there and people can buy it from there too.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that's really me.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really neat.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: I think the big differentiator there is um that obviously, you know, you're you're interacting with Bitcoin, um, which is there's a lot of different protocols involved, like we mentioned earlier.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_04: And so it can be a little confusing.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_04: And so part of the the big the big focus with mana is to take all that complexity out so that the average user doesn't have to worry about that.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, all you need to know is if somebody says that they they take Bitcoin, you can use mana to pay them.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it it helps with the adoption process of Bitcoin, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like I feel like it's I think that's another really cool thing is that people are trying to figure out, okay, well, well, this was my question when he was, you know, starting to go down the rabbit hole of Bitcoin was okay, we're gonna hold on for deal, you know, hodl, right?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, but what we can't ever use this, like we're putting all of, you know, so Amanda gives it an option for you know, people to be like, oh, we can actually use this money, which I feel like we should, you know.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not that you should use it all, just like any other finances, you shouldn't use all your money either, but it allows people to understand, oh, this is actually a way of like the future of being able to use this currency.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it still hold its value and all of that that we've learned uh in Bitcoin.
• 12:04
  unknown: Yeah.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_04: I think you're on the right track.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I think that that that that thought process and that philosophy is exactly where I try to um encourage people to get to.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_04: And that is understanding that um, you know, you can actually just use a better money.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_04: And if if you agree that Bitcoin is a better money, then you should be using it.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um and a lot of people when they hear somebody say things something like that, what they what they think they're hearing is they think somebody's telling them to get rid of their savings, right?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_04: So if Bitcoin's your savings account, like and somebody tells you to start spending Bitcoin, it's like, well, I don't want to deplete my savings.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, well, you have to spend money anyway, right?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_04: To live.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: So you know, if you have the choice to spend you know, a bad money or a good money, like you have the opportunity to spend whichever money you want.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_04: Like there's not there's not a reason why you have to spend dollars um or any form of fiat currency if you could also spend Bitcoin.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm not I'm not advocating for people to like get rid of their Bitcoin and just go into fiat.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_04: It's quite the opposite, actually.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think you know, for me at least, the better option is to stop using fiat as much and start using Bitcoin more.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so just to add on to this, too, like you shared, you could either use good money or bad money.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, mana is primarily for Bitcoin.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: So somebody has Etsy business and they're like, hey, I take Bitcoin on mana.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: So does mana also like take fiat or how or is it just strictly uh Bitcoin and then just use Venmo for your business for or is it like can it be all in one, like fiat and Bitcoin?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_04: That's a good question.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_04: So mana is Bitcoin only through and through.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_04: So um if you are running a business where you you know most people need to use dollars in their business.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um so if that's the case, it's very easy to integrate mana in in with another solution, um, like an exchange.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um so for example, um, I've been working with a a local business that's been uh excited about getting involved with Bitcoin.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_04: And one of their challenges is that they need you know to be able to use dollars as well.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_04: And so they were uh having a little bit of a hang up with this because it's like, well, now we have the Bitcoin, now what do we do with it?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_04: We need to be able to pair some people with with dollars.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_04: And I I I sent them a 39-second video of the whole process of selling the Bitcoin with mana.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_04: So you know it's less than 39 seconds to sell the Bitcoin and get it into your bank account with cash.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um so it's a really easy process.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so yeah, that that is uh one solution that you can do.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_04: But uh the other thing that a lot of people like to do is they'll accept the Bitcoin and keep that amount of Bitcoin because you're not gonna get 100% of your business in Bitcoin, probably for most people, unless that is your business model.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_04: And so let's just say five percent of your you know transactional volume is in Bitcoin.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of these businesses are happy with saving that much as Bitcoin, and then they don't have to sell any at all.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_04: And so this is kind of like their their dollar cost average buy, if you will.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's really good.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then it could even be like their uh business Bitcoin stack as well, exactly, you know, so it turns into their treasury, yeah.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's actually that's actually amazing because I was like, yeah, a lot of people are we're still so early.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you want to do that model, kudos to you.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna tell you how to run your business, but it just seems like we're still uh early and we're still using fiat.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um, no, I think that's that's really interesting.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so with mana, um, how does this work?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Are you guys collecting data, storing data, people's information, you know, KYC?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: What are we doing here?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because I uh personally I have not uh um uh used mana.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually gonna use it after we have this conversation, but I was like, you know what?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'd rather learn something from the person that created it before I like go down the rabbit hole.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can ask all myself like right here, you know?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you could just kind of share that with us.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, great questions, by the way.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_04: And this is really uh the at the core of our philosophy.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: We don't take any data at all.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it kind of goes back to a question you asked a second ago about do we have any involvement with fiat in in mana?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: And and the reason why those two are related is because as soon as you start to involve dollars, you know, you're in the traditional finance system, you have to start taking that type of data, KYC data, known as know your customer data.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_04: And so because we don't touch money, we don't have to.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so we take zero personal data, we don't even take an email address.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: So no name, no phone number, no email address, nothing.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, when you download the app, you get a recovery phrase, which is kind of like your username and password, if you will.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a 12-word seed phrase that you can use to recover your Bitcoin either on mana or another compatible wallet app.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_04: So you don't even need mana when you get your Bitcoin, your Bitcoin isn't isn't stuck in mana.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: You can take it elsewhere if you want to.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_04: And so, yeah, it is your Bitcoin, it's your it's your keys, your coins, right?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so that's that's kind of a good identifier of whether or not you really actually have you know control is whether or not you know the app that you're using or the wallet that you're using will let you leave.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: If they won't let you leave, then you might want to find another wallet.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, you're not stuck in mana.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, if mana went out of business or something happened, uh, you could always you know recover your funds without us.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um so yeah, we don't take any personal data uh whatsoever, not even an email address.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, don't ask me for any information.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want I'm not giving you any information, even in the traditional system.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I hate like just filling out stuff all the time.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like none of this is necessary.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, what do we all like are connected by?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Money, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's bad money or good money.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, like at the end of the day, you just want this transaction to go through, right?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or you want to build this relationship, whichever, whichever business you have, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Some people are transactional, some people build relationships.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So at the end of the day, it comes out of the money.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you don't need all this, you don't need my email.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: You're just like, you just want this data, you want to like harass me, you want to send me stuff, leave me alone, right?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Just leave me alone.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, no, that's really good.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: So um, most people really love to hold on to Bitcoin, use it as a savings account.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Where did this thought process come from?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Walk it through us, walk it through for us on why you wanted to come up with a payment system.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_04: It well, it just sprung out of a need that I had for myself.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_04: You know, got into Bitcoin about a decade ago, and I've been just trying to bring as many people along as I could, friends and family.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: And it was 10 years ago, it was a lot harder than it is today.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know, at some point, you know, I wanted to get people into, you know, holding their own Bitcoin that they could spend.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_04: I had an I'll tell a quick story of of really kind of where the inspiration for mana came from.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, had just like this event.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it was like a pizza party movie uh night kind of deal.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um I had a friend that put on uh this movie uh at his office and he just had friends come.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_04: It was a Bitcoin-focused movie about El Salvador, and um he bought pizza for everybody and he provided uh like I think it was a lightning address or like maybe maybe like his strike username or something, and he's like, Hey, I'm gonna cover the pizza.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_04: If you want to, you know, help spot me, just send me some sats.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_04: Here's my username.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, a few people did that, and we I I got there and we were having having fun, and this new guy came that you know, I we none of us had met before.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: It was just it was open to the public.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: So um this guy that you know was new, he just showed up and he's like, I want to be able to help pay for the pizza, but I don't I can't, I don't know how to use Bitcoin.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_04: And he's like, All I have is$20.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I I was there and I just said, Hey, do you want to uh do you want me to sell you$20 worth of Bitcoin?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_04: And then you can you know pay him and we can make it like this educational deal where you learn how to use Bitcoin and all that fun stuff.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_04: And he was like really excited.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: He's like, Yeah, that sounds fun.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: So um I had him download a wallet from the app store at the time.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_04: I won't, I won't name them, um, but it didn't work.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_04: So it was a lightning wallet, a self-custodial lightning wallet.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I at the time I was really hesitant to recommend anything that was custodial.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: This was around the time where a lot of blow-ups were happening, a lot of rug pulls.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_04: And um, yeah, a lot of a lot of people got burned.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: And so I was not willing to recommend self-custodial or I'm sorry, custodial wallets where somebody else holds the keys, right?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_04: You're you're giving your your keys to somebody else.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_04: I was not recommending those anymore.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I recommended the self-custodial wallet, um, which is still around today, still a great option, uh, but they had some problems with it right then off the bat.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, he was starting to get a little discouraged, and I was like, okay, well, let's try a different one.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_04: So I had him download a new a new app uh that he could run on his phone.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and it was gonna end up taking about$15 of that$20 just in fees to open up a lightning channel.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_04: And so, yeah, so not super not a great first experience.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_04: And in fact, you just like no, you know, forget this.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want any part of this.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: You can take the$20, I'm I'm good.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, dude.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_04: I never saw the guy again.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: So he yeah, he he was not impressed to say the least.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm like, okay, we got to solve this, we have to fix this problem.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_04: And that's when I kind of made the decision that I wanted to start thinking about building something like Mana, where you don't have to worry about the those problems that that we had.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, there was some liquidity issues, and there were some fees issues, and there were some routing issues.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_04: And this is all these are all very technical things that no one should ever have to worry about.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_04: And that's that's ultimately was the first uh time.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: When I thought about building something to fix those problems.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: That is such an interesting story.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and it I feel like all of our best ideas come from a s a situation when we're in a put in a spot, you know, and you're like, oh my gosh, this is not working how I wanted it to.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's got to be another way.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you went through like three different ones, it sounds like, for him to be able to do this one mini transaction that should have taken, you know, maybe 30 seconds of his time, you know, to be able to go ahead and spent send that money for pizza.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, he came, he was probably excited to learn about Bitcoin, and he was like, peace out.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: I am like, which sucks.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just it stinks for sure.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think, you know, fortunately, today we have a lot of great options.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_04: Mano's not the only one out there that's that really recognized that problem.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so, you know, it's it's not like we run into that as much anymore these days.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it is it is tricky because if you get recommended, you know, an option just from you know some advertisement on somebody's podcast, you know, you you don't really know like what you're dealing with, you know, whether, you know, especially if you're new, like what does self-custodial even mean and why is that important?
• 23:15
  unknown: Yeah.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: You know, so I think it's really on the Bitcoin community to try to recommend tools that are going to, you know, make people safe and make sure that you're not giving more power to people that can ultimately, you know, uh ruin people's days, to say the least.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know what's gonna be super cool though is like later on down the road when mana blows up and then this guy hears this story, and it's gonna be like I think it'll be so cool.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, wow, like that whole experience like created mana.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: For me personally, like if I had a bad, like awful experience in Bitcoin, and then I'm like, screw this, and then like years down the road, I hear like this company created this because of this situation, like that was me.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: This guy created it because of me.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's hoping there to piggyback on that is it should be easy.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: It like anytime you sign up for something, like it doesn't even matter if it's uh Venmo or uh mana or like even for like a magazine or something, right?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: It should be easy, like a username and a password and be done.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just have this experience of like it's a it's a an onboarding process into getting more people into the Bitcoin space and like wow, this is like imagine if this guy was like had mana back then.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, this is super easy.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, wow, like how was everybody not doing?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then he no, who knows where that goes, where you know, he introduces people to Bitcoin.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think right now, Adam, is kind of slowing or dragging the adoption phase?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, actually, I think that we're actually moving faster now in like medium exchange type of uh activity than I've ever seen before.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I mean, just take for example what the block team did with Square.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, they onboarded uh, I don't know, millions of of merchants um over the last 12 months or so.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that growth is is crazy.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um and a lot of people, you know, I I still see people saying like Bitcoin isn't you being used for payments.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: And a a common reply that I have to people is like just go look at the Bitcoin map, go look at BTC Map.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_04: So for anybody that doesn't know, there is um an open source project called BTCmap.org.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: And it's kind of like the yellow pages slash Google Maps for Bitcoin businesses.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_04: And you can just see everywhere around you, or you know, you can go to any country on earth and see all the businesses that accept Bitcoin for payment.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_04: And it's it's an astounding number.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_04: And if you haven't seen this or you haven't seen it lately, you should check because there are a lot of businesses taking Bitcoin.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, that's interesting.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: We're I'm definitely gonna look it up when we're done with this.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's also baked into mana.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, nice.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can just see it in mana.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_04: If you if you go into the into the settings in mana, it's the second option.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's one of the most important things.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay, mana, okay, mana.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's great.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um because go ahead, Ben.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was gonna say, because you're trying to let people know where they can actually transact with Bitcoin, not really just, you know, yes, being a merchant is one thing on the you know, receiving end, but being able to go to places and actually instead of asking, hey, do you accept Bitcoin?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, here's a map of the stores that do accept and we could just go and like support them, you know, which is cool.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_04: On that note, I have a quick story I want to share that uh kind of relates very closely to that.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_04: So I was I I went to a I was traveling and I went to a steak and shake um because I knew they accepted Bitcoin.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_04: And the waitress, uh it was one of the sit-down, sit-down restaurant steak and shakes where they like wait on you.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_04: The waitress uh didn't really know much about Bitcoin.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: I ordered the Bitcoin meal.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_04: It wasn't on the menu that I could see, um, but they had it and they they were able to make it for me.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: And she started asking me questions about it.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I just said, Hey, you know, would you be interested in taking a tip in Bitcoin?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um she's like, Yeah, I guess so.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, okay, um, well, I'll give you your normal tip, but I'm gonna give you an extra tip if you download uh a Bitcoin wallet and I can send you some Bitcoin.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_04: So I had her download mana and I sent her the tip.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_04: And she's like, This is this is really cool, but you know, what do I do now?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, okay, go to the go to the BTC map.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_04: This is everywhere you can spend it.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_04: And by the way, look, we're standing right here.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: You can literally spend it here in your own restaurant.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, she didn't even realize that.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, what?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you work at a place that you're gonna onboard onto that that business and not know that?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like they said, Bitcoin, what?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's to be like 101.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's we're talking about money here.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're talking about profit.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And she doesn't even know that they can accept Bitcoin.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh, oh, that's a whole nother topic.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_04: She was really excited because then immediately it was like it turned it went from like this like magic internet money to like this real thing.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like now it's real money to them because yeah, like yeah, I know I can take it, but can I do anything with it?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I can get my lunch with it, sure.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's pretty cool.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Nice, that is cool.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And to add on that, so even with Bitcoin, right?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: So uh you she gets tipped in Bitcoin, right?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: She has it in her mana wallet.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if, for example, she's like, I don't think I really like this, right?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say she keeps in there and that she's like, I don't really like it, Adam.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she's like, I just want to get cash.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: So can you can can you convert that mana into uh cash into like her wallet or her wells or what or is it just like it stays in there as a Bitcoin?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_04: So as of right now, if if you want to turn that Bitcoin in your mana wallet into US dollars, you would just send it to a third-party exchange.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we are working on bringing that into mana though as well.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so in the future, you will be able to buy and sell Bitcoin for US dollars um in the app and other currencies as well.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_04: You know what?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, like it the way it is.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, you gotta figure this Bitcoin thing out and you have money in there, figure out how to you know get more of it or use it like uh because again, like sometimes when you do introduce that component of the US dollar, it almost is like, oh, why don't I why don't I just go use Venmo?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Why would I just use it?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually like the way mana is set up right now, but I also see to help adoption too, that might be you know something to integrate as well.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of adoption, I was wanted to kind of get see what you thought.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like realistically Bitcoin can become everyday money for you know in the future?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think for many people it already is.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_04: I won't say I live 100% on a Bitcoin standard in the sense that I don't ever spend dollars.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: I spend dollars every day.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I also spend Bitcoin every day.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um, in fact, I try to buy anything that I need to consume to live, I try to pay for it with Bitcoin if there's a Bitcoin option available.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm okay with maybe spending a little bit more money or going out of my way to do business with a Bitcoiner.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I mean, there's a lot of reasons for that, but I, you know, it fundamentally it's it's important to me to help grow that economy and invest into that infrastructure.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_04: And one of those important points is people uh receiving Bitcoin in the in the Bitcoin economy is extremely important, especially when you consider the fact that you know you can get a money that no one else, you know, can can can track, no one else, you know, has to even you know know exists.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's you know kyc free.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's it's your own personal money, and and no one else has any say over that.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_04: And so receiving Bitcoin is super important, but those people can't receive the Bitcoin unless there's also somebody willing to give them that Bitcoin.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_04: And so I try to always be that person when I can.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I encourage other people to as well.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so to answer your question, you know, I I don't know, I don't think that there's ever going to be like a moment in time where everything just changes for everybody all at once.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's a step-by-step incremental approach to adoption where each person individually uh participates more in the Bitcoin economy every single day, a little bit more, one step at a time.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_04: And then, you know, your neighbors and your family, you know, they will start to get it too and they'll start to participate more.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's a very gradual thing.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't think that there's gonna be a moment, at least at least I'm I'm relatively sure.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_04: I don't I can't say I'm positive, but I'm I'm pretty sure that it that's kind of gonna be the way that it goes for a while.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, at least until we reach some serious hyperinflation um with the US dollar, which I think comes eventually, but I don't know how long that how far out that is.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um but as long as we're in single-digit inflation, I think that like people are just gonna continually get more and more uncomfortable and there will be a gradual shift over into Bitcoin when people realize that they can't print more of this stuff.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and someone in our podcast recently shared too, it's like people will eventually pivot out of the dollar because they're just getting robbed.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're just getting robbed.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a slow rob and a slow burn, so you don't see it, but you're getting we're all getting robbed every day, right?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And kudos for you for you know taking that next step, uh, you know, going out and and going out of your way too send Bitcoin, spending your Bitcoin so people can receive it.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love when I get Bitcoin.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: I love when, you know, I went like something on Twitter or or something, or someone sends me stuff, or you know, um the sponsorships that we have with us on for our podcast, like when they send us Bitcoin, like I'll I'll I'm like, dude, this is this is nice.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh what I wanted to add to is it's cool because mana is now that I now I'm thinking out loud, it sounds like it's so cool because people can be like, dude, I have Venmo, like I don't need that.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh now there's mana, and it's it's just uh it's the same thing as Venmo, but it's for um for Bitcoin.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a that's a great like correlation that I can uh you know, I'll definitely utilize when I'm talking to people on that.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I love that.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's it's too so awesome.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was trying to think too.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: What's one thing you wish more people understood about using Bitcoin today?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_04: I think I I kind of already mentioned it, but it is kind of just the mentality around spending Bitcoin.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_04: I think that if more people understood how important it was to spend Bitcoin rather than just hodl, um I think that the the world would approach um Bitcoin adoption a lot faster.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um and and people would be more free because of it.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um and it and it would help divert some of the power and control away from the power structures that currently exist that do rob you every single day through inflation and money printing.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um and the fastest way uh away from that is through Bitcoin adoption.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that the lowest hanging fruit to Bitcoin adoption right now is for people to just get out and use Bitcoin in the Bitcoin economy.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_04: Go accept Bitcoin for something that you sell or produce or for your labor.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, go spend Bitcoin with somebody that accepts Bitcoin.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_04: These things are are things that any of us can do.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_04: We don't have to build a Bitcoin business, we don't have to start an awesome podcast like you guys have done.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_04: We don't, you know, you don't even need to do any of these really complicated things.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_04: You can just go live your life, switch your money to a better form of money, and Bitcoin will grow accordingly.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, that is so good.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: That is so good because I'm not gonna lie, when I first entered it, it was like number go up, and then it was like, oh, I'm gonna hold on to this because I'm like, it's just a better money and like I know where it's going.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: But this podcast has definitely increased um uh me spending.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so now I go.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, I don't know if you saw, but yesterday um I went to the gas station.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: They have like this Bitcoin machine, and my one of my favorite questions now.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: I learned this from like Adam.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he's like uh uh the Bitcoin pastor on um on X.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, he was he always says uh one of the questions like I he everywhere he goes, like, hey, do you accept Bitcoin?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: And like that has been like my most favorite question now.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Everywhere I go, like Cosper, I'll be like, Hey, do you accept Bitcoin?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Or like like you just get you just get the funniest responses, like they're you know, when I went today, they're like, Hey, do you guys accept Bitcoin?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then they're like, I'm sorry, we do not accept and then yesterday at the gas, he's like, Hey, do you guys accept Bitcoin?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then she's like, you know what?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: She like she was looking at me and she was like, you know, we don't, we don't, and then this other guy's like, no way, like the other cashier was like, no way.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Okay, well, you guys have a Bitcoin machine in here, so I'm just trying to figure out, like, you know, you know, this is money, this is money too.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then they're like, no way, dude.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool, no problem.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, I'll just get this gas, right?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it's something that's really I it's so fun because I think it also gets people's heads turning, right?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because Bitcoin is way more like you shared with us 10 years now, it's the adoption has been like so much, right?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: What's where day block, TV, people discussing it, presidents.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I'm like, if you're now if we're talking about it amongst each each other in in businesses, right?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: And in um, I don't know, I in everyday life, it's just like I think it gets people's wheels turning, and it's just been one of my my new favorite things now um to talk about.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: And now I can like you know have mana and like you know, talk about mana or onboard people easily with something like this, right?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, and I think as a a lot of couples aren't always um on the same page, right?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of one of the reasons why we started this podcast was to show, like, hey, you can still learn something new on my end, right?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Me coming into it later.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if this conversation would have been uh kind of introduced earlier, I probably would have been more excited initially about it.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Cause what before it was like we're saving, we're saving, we're saving.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, uh okay, well, we have like a family, we got things to do, we got, you know, like we're just saving forever.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then this just goes into this black hole of saving, you know?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_04: Like you sound exactly like my wife, by the way.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_04: At least Aliashi was in the beginning.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I mean, literally, I was just like, I don't understand what you're saying right now.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this whole process of adoption is coming from different angles of yes, the adoption process for even or like OG Bitcoiners, right?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Really starting to use it more, helping their brains turn a little bit about using Bitcoin, yeah, helping couples or families really adopting the process of using their Bitcoin, having different conversations around it where because we have the fiat world.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So then I'm like, okay, well, I guess we could use our fiat, but you just told me this was really good money.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So then, like, why are we using like so you know you have these back and forth conversations?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think what you've created is pretty awesome.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so one thing to be aware of is I think there there's like also been there's really two things.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_04: One um is the the understanding of um, you know, this the savings technology and taking self-custody in the form of what we would call cold storage, which is a little bit more of an advanced subject, right?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's a pretty big step to take.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um and some people think that you have to go straight to cold storage in order to take self-custody, which isn't necessarily the case, right?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, with mana, you can you can hold your own keys and kind of get familiar with that practice of you know recovery and managing and storing 12 words securely.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_04: And it gives you like a really good starting point, and it's a good uh what I would consider like orange pilling um uh you know introductory adoption tool.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um before you jump headfirst into cold storage.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_04: My parents are a good example.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: They had their they had some Bitcoin for a while, and they were just like they had it on Coinbase, and I kept telling them like you gotta get your coins off of Coinbase, you gotta, you gotta take it, you know, get it into self-custody.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_04: And then we would see all these exchanges go under, and then the FTX thing blew up.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, is Coinbase next?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you know, I don't know.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_04: They could be.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um, do you want to know for sure that your Bitcoin is yours?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_04: You gotta take self-custody.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_04: And this was over a multi-year period, and I hadn't built mana yet, and they just couldn't do it.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_04: I couldn't, I I got them all the hardware that they needed.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um, they were all set up.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_04: I was I was there with them, willing to help them through this process multiple times.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_04: We started and they just couldn't get it.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_04: And then and then I released mana, and I'm like, okay, try this.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_04: And it was super easy for them.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_04: They got it right away, and they're like, okay, now I get it.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_04: And now they're in cold storage, right?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_04: So it was like a it was like a stepping stone process for them.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_04: It didn't realize what self-custody was, and then they could go from mana.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_04: Now they understand they can go from mana to their cold storage very easily, and it's a very easy process.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: But I think the step from like not even understanding what self-custody is to cold storage, it's a pretty big leap.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_04: The other thing that I was going to mention is that there's like this narrative and this push that Bitcoin isn't money, right?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_04: And that you need to only hold it and you should never spend it.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_04: And you just got to be careful with who you're hearing that from and make sure, make sure that they don't have something else to sell you.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_04: Because I feel like a lot of there are a lot of you know, people, organizations, companies out there that want to uh sell you something that that's not Bitcoin, right?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_04: Because Bitcoin's actually really not very dangerous in a sense if it's just held in self-custody and never spent, right?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't, it doesn't worry the state or the governments one bit, right?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't threaten the fiat central banking cabal if it's just held in cold storage and never used.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_04: It becomes threatening to the dollar, it becomes threatening to the world, you know, uh, you know, the the the the central banking apparatus as soon as you can use that bitcoin freely without their permission.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what they want.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_04: They want control.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's so they don't want you to spend your Bitcoin because then you're taking control back of your own life rather than giving it to them.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so good.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: I never actually seen it, but I like because it's like, oh, well, if you're holding this thing, like why are you holding it?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: It actually makes it sound dangerous, right?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, well, why are you holding this thing?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: And now, like, well, if we're using it every day, it's like, well, all these people are interacting with it, like, why aren't you interacting with it, right?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Why aren't you interacting with it?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: So they probably love that we're just holding it and we're actually not like creeping into like everyday society, um, use utilizing this money, this good money.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, and to add on to this too, so did a little bit of research, listen to some podcasts.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know um mana got hacked.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know exactly like you know what this means with mana, because it is, you know, self-custody, right?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you can explain to us a little bit and address it to all our listeners, like, why should I even can even consider using mana with this, right?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um uh because I just don't know all the details on it.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: So just having you uh giving you the floor to share.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's uh this is I'll I'll start with I'll kind of tell it chronologically.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_04: So uh a few months ago, um almost a year ago, not quite, maybe, maybe seven or eight months ago, um, I was gonna be giving a uh presentation at uh the Kansas City Bitcoin Summit.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um so we were having like a conference here locally.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm from Kansas City, and um probably I think it was like three days before the conference, um our servers got hacked.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_04: So somebody found a way in.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um they hacked our servers and they tried to hold us ransom essentially.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like they wanted us to pay them money.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_04: They're like, hey, we got a hold of your server, we got a hold of all your data.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and hold on, let me let me finish this because this is really important.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_04: So stick stick to the end of the story.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and they're like, uh, we have everybody's keys.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_04: And that's when I knew like that they were bluffing.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_04: Because like there, like, there's no keys, there's no data, there's no anything.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_04: And so, long story short, it was actually a really good thing that we got hacked because it showed us where our vulnerability was in our server.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_04: The worst thing that happened was people couldn't send transactions on mana for a few hours.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but uh no, no customer data, no funds were at risk, none of that uh was ever a problem because we don't have any of that.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_04: And that was honestly, it actually was a great opportunity for me to share that.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: Because I I shared that story as part of my presentation at the at the conference, um, just to demonstrate the difference between a self custodial wallet and somebody that is.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: Custodial.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: If we were a custodial wallet, the Bitcoin would be gone, user funds would be uh, you know, completely drained.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, all the uh information and data that we've had that we we don't have any, but these centralized uh wallets you know would have usernames, emails, whatever, that would have all been leaked on the dark web.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_04: It would have been really bad.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_04: We don't have any of that.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_04: And so there was nothing for them to take from us.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and all of our users were 100% safe, everybody's funds were safe, and it was actually a really good, happy ending.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and it made for a really good story.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, uh uh we we found the the vulnerability.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_04: So I actually the guy was like holding us holding us for ransom, so to speak.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_04: And just because one, I I kind of felt bad that this guy felt like he had to resort to you know crime in order to pay his bills.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and two, because he actually did help us find a vulnerability, I went ahead and just I paid him some money.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, here you go, there's your finder's fee for you know your bug bounty.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_04: And uh he's like, and so I think I probably orange-pilled him along the way.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, hey, now he knows how important self-custody is, right?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_04: Because he's probably yeah, I'm sure he's been hacking like custodial wallets for a long time and then ran into mana.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_04: He's like, Oh, wait, there's nothing here.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wow.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: I got I got a few questions that kind of uh came from that.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: So he shut down uh mana where they couldn't um transact for a few hours, right?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: So did you um number one, so do you know how many people um are utilizing mana?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, there's like um a thousand and fifty people that have downloaded or utilized mana.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you know that number on your guys' end?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_04: It's really funny you say that because I think our active users, um, it's probably actually somewhere around that right now.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like our monthly active users is probably somewhere a little over a thousand.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we don't have granular uh visibility because it's you know a privacy-focused wallet.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_04: We don't we don't have any way to monitor um uh on a granular detail what people are doing on our app.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_04: But we can see some detail, like we can see when people update their apps to new versions and stuff like that through the Play Store and the Google App Store.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so I would say that I it's to our the best of my uh knowledge and to our account, um, there's been uh probably somewhere between three and five thousand wallets created on mana at this point, and then about a thousand to maybe maybe up to two thousand um uh active that are actively using it.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so if for in the future mana blows up, everyone's utilizing it, it's a great, you know, uh payment system.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you you'll really never have an accurate amount of like how many people are actually using mana.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Does that sound right?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, uh I would I would say that's true.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: So we can we can monitor things like uh downloads in the Play Store and the Apple App Store, but people can also download mana uh without those.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um so they can go through, you know, download the app directly without us ever even knowing anything about it.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so uh there's only so much information we're gonna be able to collect just because we built it in such a way that you know um doesn't require that.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that that's really um another just principle of of building software that I I would like to see more of in the world.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um everybody's all data hungry, and all these tech platforms are just trying to collect as much data as they can at the expense of their users, and so yeah, we we built mana in a way that we don't have to rely on that, and we don't think you should.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_04: Nice.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: So with that being said, oh, did you have a question, Dave?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, I just think it's awesome because I I think it would be really hard as someone who's developing uh an app not to wonder how many people, but actually I like I it would go against my whole belief system of Bitcoin, and then it's just this like teetering of like, gosh, I'd really like to know the exact number, but also I truly believe in lot not knowing all this information about people too.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I in my brain I'd be like, I want to know, but then I also don't want to know.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_04: So there's a couple reasons um behind that.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um the first of which I believe it's just wrong, but so does so do most people, right?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_04: But is that enough to to sway their decision?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_04: Many times it's not.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um and the reason why I feel like I've been able to do this, um, I attribute a a lot of it to the fact that I have Bitcoin.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_04: I don't hold a money that constantly loses value.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_04: I can I can play the slow game, you know, I can, as they say, focus on my craft because I have my my net worth as in an asset that appreciates over the long term rather than depreciates.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um so that that changes a lot.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um the other thing is um venture capital.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_04: So a lot of a lot of businesses and startups and apps and companies uh they go out and they raise money from venture capitalists.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_04: And these venture capitalists are usually you know short-term focused um and can be can be greedy at times, right?
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_04: They need their they need their payout.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't mean to say that in the you know completely negative sense because you know, you got to make money somehow.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but it usually uh in many cases ends up being uh more of a short-term uh play than it is the long-term play.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_04: You know, venture capitalists want to want to make the investment and then they have an exit strategy.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um and sometimes what I see in the Bitcoin space specifically is a lot of times those exit strategies involve altcoins, they involve stablecoin involvement, they do things that you know a lot of Bitcoiners would consider fairly shady and not necessarily beneficial to the Bitcoin ecosystem.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um they're collecting data and selling that data, um, things like that.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so the fact that we never we've never taken venture capital.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um we don't take, we've never taken any donations of any kind.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_04: We are all 100% self-funded, um, allows us to just do things the slow way and the things that we the way that we think things are done right.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's really good.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: And uh a lot of people that that are not in the Bitcoin space, I think that would be hard for them to grasp what you just shared right now of to be able to work on your craft because this is a long-term play, right?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: So then you get to work on things that you care about or spend your time where you want.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um so just add on a syllabus.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Does mana get funded anyway, or is this something that's just self-funded?
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know we live in this world where like, hey, if I'm gonna spend if I'm gonna spend my time here, I'm gonna make money, I want to make money on the if I'm building something great, like mana, right?
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's a little bit of both.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, a little bit of both in the sense that it's partially philanthropy, partially, you know, a for-profit business, um, but both at the same time.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so obviously, like I mentioned earlier, I had started and uh ran a successful mining business in the past that allowed me to fund mana.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_04: So mana is funded 100% by me.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's just it's a passion project.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_04: It does uh there, you know, there it does um have some revenue.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_04: It's very small because it's just based on transaction fees, which are very nominal.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um, as mana grows and scales, that will scale and grow with the business as well.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um so mana is not profitable by any means today, um, but the idea and the goal is to become profitable, and we're getting closer to that every month.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so uh, yes, I do and I do anticipate profitability at some point.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, it's not just only for the love of the game, although that was a prerequisite to building the business in the first place.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I you know, I appreciate you sharing that.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I know some people, number one, I think this is great that um I think you're way ahead of the curve, way ahead of the of the game when it comes to building something like this, right?
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then again, when it gets to that scalability, because we all know where Bitcoin's gonna go long term, so it it will come, right?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh thanks for you know creating mana.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds great.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're super excited to use it right after we get off of this.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super excited to like dive in and look at the Bitcoin maps as well.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's that's the cool part because we're always out with our kid family, you know.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: We try to get out and about and just be with our kids and and it'd be really great to be able to show our kids because they know we have a Bitcoin podcast, you know, they're always like, Are you doing a podcast?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: or you know, they're always asking questions.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, they're probably like me initially, like, what is this Bitcoin that you're talking about?
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and so uh being able to to see us using it, you know, in our everyday life.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that'd be I think that's gonna be super helpful to for them to see.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and kind of as we navigate the whole financial literacy and all of that fun talk as they get older, but but yeah, it's it's really awesome.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_04: I'm huge on kids, by the way.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_04: I mean that a big part of you know the design is is based around whether or not a kid can use it.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um my I have a 10-year-old daughter and she gets really uh excited about using using mana.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_04: And she's always you know watching me watch the Bitcoin podcasts and you know all that fun stuff and getting involved with Bitcoin and she likes to like she's run like um you know little shops where she's like hand knit like pot holders and stuff and she's sold chicken eggs and stuff for Bitcoin and she uses mana to do that and she has a lot of fun with it.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_04: But again, the uh a big part of of mana is is involving the kids.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um we're really focused on you know making sure that the kids are able to use it as a tool.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_04: We actually introduced um a uh test net.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_04: We call it mana net.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_04: So on mana, you can actually uh go into this special environment where it is all of the functions of mana, but with you know, pretend Bitcoin, right?
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_04: So uh there's not it's not not real value, it's like you know, play money.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_04: So you can actually use mana, use Bitcoin, use all of this.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_04: You can set up your store and do all the fun stuff, um, but with you know, pretend money.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, that's really cool.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool because like, oh well, let me like let me let me uh uh dip my toe in real quick before I go into the deep end and have a business, run an actual business with this.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's again, these are mana sounds like the great uh like uh onboarding a stepping stone before cold stores, before running a business on this.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's I I really I I really like this, uh Adam, and I really appreciate you taking uh your time out today.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have two last questions.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: My first question before is like, so how how big is mana?
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: How like your team?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do you get you guys have a team or is this just you?
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we have uh three uh three of us that work uh basically full time, and then uh we have some contract work as well on the outside.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it's it's mostly just the three of us.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because this the way the scalability will be and just having, I mean, I probably you might get more in the future, but as it's to be for mana, I think mana is a very big idea.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: And for um all the people that are using it, a thousand plus, right?
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're again we're still early, but I still think a thousand plus mana users, active mana users run by a team of four people, that's incredible.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: So kudos to you, you know, for developing this.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one of the last questions we like to ask uh to kind of wrap things up a little bit here is someone's getting new into the Bitcoin space and they um are just testing their waters or probably listening to this podcast for the first time on Bitcoin.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what's some advice that you would get to someone that's first entering into the Bitcoin space?
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_04: I have this sticker on my bottle.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_04: My w this is just my water bottle that I carry carry with me everywhere.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_04: And it's 40 HPW.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_04: Do you guys know what 40 HPW means?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, no.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_04: It stands for 40 hours per week.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_04: And the idea is to listen to 40 hours of Bitcoin podcasts every week.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, nice.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_04: So uh that was uh popularized by uh a podcast group called the Bugle, by the way.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_04: But I I really latched on to the uh to that idea um almost literally.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um so you know, although it's it is intended to be satire, uh I also take it literally.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_04: I think that like it's it's good to just listen to, I mean, even today, I've like I said, I've I've been doing this for 10 years.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_04: I still probably listen to 40 hours of Bitcoin podcasts a week.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_04: It's that important to me.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_04: So if I'm while I'm driving anywhere, working around the house, whatever, I'm trying to stay up to date with all the all the podcasts, and I'm learning new stuff all the time still.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_04: So um, yeah, podcasts, I mean, in they're the cheat code.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_04: Books are cool too.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I like listening to audiobooks.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I definitely think podcasts are one of those things that needs to be a part of every new Bitcoiner's journey because that's how you figure everything out.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_04: That's how I figured everything out.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that it's like a it's a shortcut um in order in order to learn as much as you really want to learn about Bitcoin.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_04: You need to be listening to podcasts.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_04: Nice.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_04: I like that.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's a that's a first.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well um, watch more of this podcast too, by the way.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_04: Make sure you subscribe, like this video, and share with your friends.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: We appreciate you so much and your time and taking time out on uh you know your kind of chill day to come sit hang out with us.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: We really appreciate it.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you guys.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_04: It was an honor and a pleasure.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you everyone for tuning in to To the Moon with the Lunas, and we'll see you all on the moon.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.