Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / FRIDAY NIGHT SPECIAL: LUIGI MANGIONE, PUSH FOR THE DEATH PENALTY

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FRIDAY NIGHT SPECIAL: LUIGI MANGIONE, PUSH FOR THE DEATH PENALTY · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:07
Speaker 2: Well, it's Friday night and it is special. In the
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Speaker 2: last days, the US Attorney General Pam Bondi directs prosecutors
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Speaker 2: to seek the death penalty for Luigi Mangioni. Bondi states
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Speaker 2: Luigi Mangioni's murderer of Brian Thompson, an innocent man and
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Speaker 2: father of two young children, was a premeditated, cold blooded
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Speaker 2: assassination that shocked America. After careful consideration, I have directed
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Speaker 2: federal prosecutors to seek the death penalty in this case
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Speaker 2: and make America safe again.
0:43
Speaker 1: Wow.
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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. I've got a pretty
0:50
Speaker 2: good idea why Bondi is directing federal prosecutors to seek
0:54
Speaker 2: the death penalty on Luigi mangione Growing up with a
0:59
Speaker 2: silver spoon, no tea, silverspoons in his mouth, he guns
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Speaker 2: down a healthcare boss in broad daylight on the streets
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Speaker 2: of Manhattan. Let me jog your memory.
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Speaker 3: Earlier this morning, in Altoona, Pennsylvania, members of the Altuna
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Speaker 3: Police Department arrested Luigi Mangioni, a twenty six year old,
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Speaker 3: mail on firearms charges at this time, he is believed
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Speaker 3: to be our person of interest.
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Speaker 2: From what we understand, McDonald's employee and Altoona in western
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Speaker 2: Pennsylvania spotted the guy and thinks he looked like the
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Speaker 2: health boss assassin, probably trying to use a fake ID
1:45
Speaker 2: in a McDonald's. According to law enforcement and the New
1:49
Speaker 2: York Post, the man being eyed for the cold blooded
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Speaker 2: execution of Brian Thompson. The guy has a gun, a
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Speaker 2: silencer for fake IDs, and other items consistent with what
2:04
Speaker 2: Elle was looking for in the case.
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Speaker 4: But is it him?
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Speaker 2: Does he match this description? According to a McDonald's employee,
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Speaker 2: he does?
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Speaker 4: What else do we know?
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Speaker 1: Where?
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Speaker 2: Is Altoona, Pennsylvania, Western Pennsylvania, two hundred and eighty miles
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Speaker 2: away from Manhattan, a little over a five hour drive.
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Speaker 4: But the manhunt across the nation.
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Speaker 2: Going in every direction from Manhattan, divers, drones, you name it,
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Speaker 2: all used employed to find the killer of the health
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Speaker 2: care boss.
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Speaker 1: What led to the detainment of this guy?
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Speaker 2: We also understand that in his possession is a New
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Speaker 2: Jersey ID, a fake ID, possibly used to check into
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Speaker 2: that Manhattan hostile press conference.
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Speaker 4: Listen.
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Speaker 5: A man was taken into custody today at ALTUDA Pennsylvania
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Speaker 5: this morning. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangioni.
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Speaker 5: He's a mail twenty six years old. He was born
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Speaker 5: and raised in Maryland. We know he has tis to
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Speaker 5: San Francisco, California, and his last known address was Honolulu, Hawaii.
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Speaker 5: He has no prior arrest history in New York. Members
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Speaker 5: of the NYPD Detective Bureau are currently traveling to Pennsylvania
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Speaker 5: with members of the Manhattan District Attorney's Office to interview
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Speaker 5: this subject. This case was brought to a successful conclusion
3:32
Speaker 5: based on the coordinated effort between numerous NYPD units, including
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Speaker 5: the Intelligence and counter Terrorism Bureau, our federal partners at
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Speaker 5: the FBI, the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, and of course,
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Speaker 5: members of the Altoona Police Department in Pennsylvania. On Thursday,
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Speaker 5: one day after this crime was committed, the NYPD released
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Speaker 5: a photo of the shooter in this case. This picture
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Speaker 5: was obtained by the NYPD during one of their extensive
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Speaker 5: video canvases. We took that photograph and we asked for
4:00
Speaker 5: the public's health and identifying this subject, and the public responded.
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Speaker 5: Hundreds of tips began to pour into our hotline. Each
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Speaker 5: tip was investigated thoroughly, and we began to release additional
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Speaker 5: photographs as they came into our possession. The NYPD provided
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Speaker 5: these photos to numerous media outlets. Local, national, and international
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Speaker 5: outlets released the photo via television, print, social media, and
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Speaker 5: online content. Luckily, a citizen in Pennsylvania recognized our subject
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Speaker 5: and called local law enforcement.
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Speaker 6: Members of the.
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Speaker 5: Altoona Police Department responded to the call and based on
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Speaker 5: their investigation, they notified the NYPD. This investigation is still
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Speaker 5: active and ongoing. Thank you very much.
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Speaker 7: I had a couple.
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Speaker 8: Questions about document that he was found in possession with.
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Speaker 8: Can you go a little bit more in depth about
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Speaker 8: those motivations that you mentioned. Was that CEO specifically named
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Speaker 8: in that document? Was there anything more about in wanting
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Speaker 8: to go after others?
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Speaker 4: Also in that doctor?
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Speaker 8: Was there any indication that explains us how the level
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Speaker 8: of detail that he went into killing him, like, is.
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Speaker 5: There anything That document is currently in the possession of
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Speaker 5: the Altoona Police Department as part of their investigation, but
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Speaker 5: just from briefly speaking with them, we don't think that
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Speaker 5: there's any specific threats to other people mentioned in that document,
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Speaker 5: but it does seem that he has some some ill
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Speaker 5: will toward corporate America.
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Speaker 9: Can you point to a single linchpin that help practice case.
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Speaker 5: There's numerous lynchpins in this case. And the fact that
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Speaker 5: we've recovered an enormous amount of forensic evidence, an enormous
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Speaker 5: amount of video, and once again with your help and
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Speaker 5: the public SELP. So I couldn't. I really couldn't put
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Speaker 5: it on one thing, but if I had to, it
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Speaker 5: would be the release of that photograph from the media.
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Speaker 5: We had divers in the ward yesterday that came up
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Speaker 5: negative results the passport. We don't believe that he was
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Speaker 5: planning on doing any traveling at this time. We don't
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Speaker 5: think he at this point our investigation, we don't think
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Speaker 5: he was trying to flee the country.
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Speaker 4: Person at McDonald's where they buying, What were they doing.
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Speaker 10: At that exact comport?
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Speaker 5: It was an employe at the McDonald's. But what was
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Speaker 5: the suspect, Dudes, he was sitting there reading neda from.
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Speaker 9: The New York Post.
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Speaker 4: I was just hoping to get more details on the
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Speaker 4: capture itself. Did he put up a fight? Did he
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Speaker 4: say through the cops? And we've also recorded that.
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Speaker 3: He published online anti health KA industry rantings can you share.
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Speaker 8: With us some of the services that he posted.
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Speaker 5: We're still working through his social media and we're going
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Speaker 5: to do a complete scrub of that. Preliminarily, like I said,
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Speaker 5: he seems that he has some ill will tod Corporate America,
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Speaker 5: but that will all come out as part of our investigation.
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Speaker 5: We're not done here. We're still going to be putting
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Speaker 5: this together. We're still going to be working very hard
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Speaker 5: to bring this to a successful conclusion.
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Speaker 2: A ghost gun, a silence sir, fake IDs, and a
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Speaker 2: handwritten manifesto attacking the healthcare industry sounds.
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Speaker 1: Like our guy. But what else led to this.
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Speaker 2: Detainment in Pennsylvania? Hey, doctor Bethany Marshall joining us are
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Speaker 2: now psychoanalyst out of La, author of deal Breaker. You
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Speaker 2: can see her on Peacott and Doctor Bethany. The theory
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Speaker 2: that the assassin meant to scatter toy monopoly money.
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Speaker 4: Over the dead body.
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Speaker 2: That tells me a lot about him. He's got a
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Speaker 2: lot of time sitting in somebody's basement, thinking and plotting.
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Speaker 4: It almost rules out a day job in my mind.
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Speaker 2: But that said, we know he's white male, we know
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Speaker 2: he's got money and a guy that can fund himself
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Speaker 2: cash wise for nearly two weeks in Manhattan. We also
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Speaker 2: know that while he may have meant to scatter fake
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Speaker 2: monopoly money all over the dead body, sending a message
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Speaker 2: as if the nine millimeter bullet didn't do that, he
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Speaker 2: didn't leave the money behind. But he did leave behind
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Speaker 2: a water bottle with DNA and fingerprints on it. He
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Speaker 2: left behind a candy or bar wrapper. He left behind
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Speaker 2: a burner phone. If they can break into that burner
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Speaker 2: flow burner found that is going to be a tremendous
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Speaker 2: source of evidence.
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Speaker 4: But he forgot to.
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Speaker 9: Strow the money, Nancy, he forgot it. This guy is obsessional.
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Speaker 9: In the crime world, you may say methodical. I say obsessional,
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Speaker 9: meaning he has been thinking about this for a long
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Speaker 9: long time. When I have a patient like this come
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Speaker 9: into my Beverly Hills office, they usually are enraged at
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Speaker 9: one person and that is all they can talk about.
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Speaker 9: What they would like to do, what the person's look
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Speaker 9: on their face would be like, you know, Nancy, With
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Speaker 9: obsessional paranoia, the person the person sort of alleviates their
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Speaker 9: rage by constantly thinking about inflicting harm on the victim.
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Speaker 9: But I also think although he obsessed about this and
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Speaker 9: planned it out. This was his first crime. He did
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Speaker 9: not he did not think about what it would be
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Speaker 9: like to drop a candy wrapper, drop the water bottle.
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Speaker 9: He didn't have time to plan them. He didn't have
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Speaker 9: time to scatter the monopoly money.
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Speaker 1: This was all in his head. You'd never practiced before.
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Speaker 2: Hey, you know what, Tom Smith, former NYPD knows this
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Speaker 2: area like the back of his hand. Tom the burner,
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Speaker 2: the cell phone. I mean, there's an outside chance it's
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Speaker 2: his actual cell phone. But the reports we're hearing is
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Speaker 2: it's a burner phone. Lauren Conlin, Yes, no burner phone,
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Speaker 2: actual phone.
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Speaker 11: Burner phone, Nancy, Tom Smith.
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Speaker 1: What I'm coming to you about is the phone? What
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Speaker 1: an idiot? I think. Bethany's right.
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Speaker 2: This may be his first time at the rodeo, and
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Speaker 2: you know, like, well, let me.
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Speaker 1: Think of a good one. Robert Blake remember when he
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Speaker 1: and his henchman got.
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Speaker 2: His bodyguards, got together and murdered bonding Lee Bakley, And.
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Speaker 1: They had this extensive to do list.
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Speaker 2: Very often you can catch the purp because of their
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Speaker 2: to do list and they're over planning, right, But the
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Speaker 2: burner phone, they're really hard to break into. Do you
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Speaker 2: remember in the Alexan Burrogg trial. They had to bring
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Speaker 2: in the secret Service to crack his phone.
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Speaker 12: Yeah, and I agree with Lauren. It's a burner phone
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Speaker 12: and who knows what's on there. Yeah, he could just
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Speaker 12: use it for simple things. Again, if he plans it
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Speaker 12: out and knows Berner Phones and what to use him for.
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Speaker 12: There may not be a lot on there, but the
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Speaker 12: ability to break in there might not be that difficult
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Speaker 12: because of the low technology that Bernard Phone and Giugi
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Speaker 12: are and the limited amount of information that'll be on.
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Speaker 2: There, all the surveillance video, all the pictures that we've
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Speaker 2: got so far. Talking on the phone just before the murder. Hey,
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Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall, and then I'm going to follow up
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Speaker 2: with renowned defense attorney Jason Oceans.
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Speaker 1: Dr Bethnany, He's not worried. Look at him. He has
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Speaker 1: practiced this over and over and over.
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Speaker 2: He has been watching the victim like a hawk from
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Speaker 2: the moment the victim got into town. This guy knows
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Speaker 2: the itinerary by heart. He knew that there was a breakfast,
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Speaker 2: he knew that.
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Speaker 1: That started at eight o'clock.
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Speaker 2: He knew that the victim was going over ahead of time.
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Speaker 2: From the Hilton over to the Executive Forum where he
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Speaker 2: was set to speak that morning. Now, all of this
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Speaker 2: surveillance video is from individuals and businesses along the trek.
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Speaker 1: Check it out.
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Speaker 2: So what I'm getting at, Dr Bethany, this guy's cold, cool,
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Speaker 2: and calculated.
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Speaker 9: This is definitely cold blooded and methodical. To use the
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Speaker 9: panel's term, Nancy. There's one thing this guy forgot to do.
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Speaker 9: He didn't watch the Nancy Grace Show, because if he had,
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Speaker 9: he would have known that there were surveillance cameras all
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Speaker 9: along that street. And that fifteen minute phone call. That
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Speaker 9: makes me wonder if this is like the DC Sniper
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Speaker 9: where an older, more ruthless person recruited a younger person,
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Speaker 9: or that he's acting in concert with somebody else and
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Speaker 9: that's why he's on that phone.
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Speaker 2: Hey, Lauren, it was a call fifty minutes before the shooting,
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Speaker 2: not a fifteen minute phone call.
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Speaker 1: Correct.
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Speaker 11: Correct, The phone call occurred at six thirty am.
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Speaker 2: So, Doctor Bethany, But I agree with what you were saying,
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Speaker 2: But he did not yact for fifteen minutes. It's almost
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Speaker 2: as if he's checking in. Because I'm wondering is he
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Speaker 2: speaking or is he listening? I can't tell plus his
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Speaker 2: mouth is covered right there, and I'll tell you why
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Speaker 2: Jason Ocean is joining me Renow defense attorney joining us
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Speaker 2: out of this jurisdiction.
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Speaker 4: Who also, you and I have walked this track before.
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Speaker 1: Together at Jason Ocean. So back around court, TV and
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Speaker 1: HLN days.
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Speaker 2: Jason absolutely the reason I'm wondering if he was listening
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Speaker 2: to something and not talking.
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Speaker 1: I prosecuted an arson murder, and just before.
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Speaker 2: The guy brined his mansion down and tried to fake
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Speaker 2: that his wife died in the fire from smoking elation.
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Speaker 1: He called and checked the weather channel.
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Speaker 2: Jason, I was so happy he called and checked the
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Speaker 2: weather channel to find out if it was going to
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Speaker 2: rain the day he was setting the house on fire.
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Speaker 1: So for all I know.
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Speaker 2: This guy's checking the bus schedule or checking was And
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Speaker 2: now I know he was not on a flight.
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Speaker 1: I know he was on a bus.
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Speaker 2: But every time I'm headed to Legardia, I call or
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Speaker 2: I check online to see if my delta flight is delayed. Okay,
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Speaker 2: how do I know if he was just checking something
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Speaker 2: or actually speaking to someone. In Bethany's train of thought,
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Speaker 2: what if he called someone it was a quick callment,
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Speaker 2: Hey I'm on the way right now, I'm walking. I
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Speaker 2: just passed Starbucks. It could be that it could be anything.
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Speaker 13: Anti I think the theory that, you know, the potential
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Speaker 13: theory that he was directed by someone and that's why
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Speaker 13: he was on the phone is fascinating.
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Speaker 12: And then also.
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Speaker 13: Struck by that his lack of knowledge, you know, the
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Speaker 13: overall aspect of the cameras that are everywhere. I think
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Speaker 13: he didn't plan for that. That was the one thing
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Speaker 13: in this seemingly meticulous plan that was that was not done.
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Speaker 13: But that phone call could be very critical if we
14:05
Speaker 13: can find out if it was an incoming or an
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Speaker 13: outgoing call, and the limited technology it has in the
14:11
Speaker 13: ability to bust that phone up.
14:12
Speaker 2: I got to figure out how the Secret Service actually
14:15
Speaker 2: cracks it. You'd think it would be easy, because.
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Speaker 1: You know, Cheryl McCollum with me forensic expert.
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Speaker 2: When I was researching for my last book, Don't Be
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Speaker 2: a Victim, I found out that about I think it
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Speaker 2: was seventy percent or eighty percent, some crazy astronomical number
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Speaker 2: of people still use the factory code that they had
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Speaker 2: on answer machines, or they do one two three four
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Speaker 2: is their code or one one one one, or of course,
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Speaker 2: sixty nine, sixty nine, that's now tried and true, or
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Speaker 2: let's see lucky numbers that they come up with, like
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Speaker 2: seven seven seven seven.
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Speaker 4: It's so predictable.
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Speaker 2: But then you got somebody like this who's uh half smart,
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Speaker 2: and he's probably got some bizarre code on his cellphone
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Speaker 2: the burner. You know how long it took them to
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Speaker 2: crack Alex Murdock's final They had to bring in the
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Speaker 2: secret Service to do.
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Speaker 14: It, exactly. Mean, if you look, that phone call could
15:15
Speaker 14: have been something as simple as he called him sick
15:17
Speaker 14: to work because he knew he wouldn't gonna make it.
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Speaker 14: Who you can call it? Six forty five am is
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Speaker 14: a very small group of people, So it could have
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Speaker 14: been he's checking the bus schedule because he's believing that
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Speaker 14: morning and wants to make sure that's smart.
15:30
Speaker 1: It's smart smart.
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Speaker 2: Wait, you just really gave me clue, Cheryl, who are
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Speaker 2: you going to call at six o'clock.
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Speaker 1: In the morning? Okay?
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Speaker 4: Not very many people?
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Speaker 14: Okay, go ahead, because if you call your mom or
15:44
Speaker 14: a sister or something like that, you're going to scare
15:46
Speaker 14: the day like that of them. So it's got to
15:48
Speaker 14: be somebody that's obvious. So you can leave a message
15:52
Speaker 14: for somebody because you know they're not at work at
15:54
Speaker 14: you can check the bus schedule. I'm not as interested
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Speaker 14: in that as I am his other messages. What he
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Speaker 14: wrote on the shellcasing, the threat before the murder, the
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Speaker 14: fact that he would choose New York and not the victim,
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Speaker 14: poem state, why not shoot him at any red light
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Speaker 14: going to work?
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Speaker 2: Oh, Cheryl, Cheryl, you just gave me another tidbit. Hold on,
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Speaker 2: I want to tell everybody. At first we were led
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Speaker 2: to believe that the bullets were engraved in some way with.
16:25
Speaker 1: Deny defend deposed.
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Speaker 2: We now know it was written with black sharp which
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Speaker 2: tells me even more. Do you know that you can
16:37
Speaker 2: get a handwriting sample off of that? Not that I
16:42
Speaker 2: think police are going to need a handwriting sample when
16:44
Speaker 2: they've got fingerprints in DNA, but you never know what
16:47
Speaker 2: might click with the jury.
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Speaker 1: What about it? Cheryl?
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Speaker 14: One hundred percent? But again, it tells you he took
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Speaker 14: extra time to leave a message on shellcasings. He took
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Speaker 14: extra time to get the monopoly money. That's a message.
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Speaker 14: Shooting him in New York City the morning of that
17:03
Speaker 14: meeting was a message he could have shot him anytime
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Speaker 14: in his home stated a red light, but he didn't.
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Speaker 14: This is somebody that was a laser focus about his
17:13
Speaker 14: intended target and his motive.
17:17
Speaker 1: Period crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
17:30
Speaker 2: The US Attorney General directs federal prosecutors to seek the
17:33
Speaker 2: death penalty for Luigi MANGIONI.
17:35
Speaker 1: You want to know why, I'll tell you why.
17:37
Speaker 3: The suspect was in a McDonald's and was recognized by
17:41
Speaker 3: an employee, who then called local police. Responding officers questioned
17:46
Speaker 3: the suspect, who was acting suspiciously and was carrying multiple
17:50
Speaker 3: fraudulent IDs as well as a US passport.
17:54
Speaker 2: First, I want to go out to our dive expert.
17:57
Speaker 2: I'm curious about the in the lake at Central Park.
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Speaker 7: The New York Police Department dive team is called into
18:04
Speaker 7: action after the discovery of the backpack near Hexherre Playground.
18:08
Speaker 7: The divers are seen trawling a Central Park pond behind
18:10
Speaker 7: an area cordoned off with police tape next to Bethesda Fountain,
18:13
Speaker 7: in a body of water known as the Lake near
18:16
Speaker 7: Central Park boat House. The NYPD has been searching Central
18:19
Speaker 7: Park since the gunman was seen escaping on an ee
18:21
Speaker 7: bike into the park. Police have not yet recovered the
18:24
Speaker 7: distinctive gun used in the shooting, and it's unclear if
18:26
Speaker 7: officers recovered any evidence from the water.
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Speaker 2: Joining me special guest Ben Dobin, Virginia Beach Emergency Medical Services,
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Speaker 2: also the Dean of Professional Services at Virginia Wesleyan University.
18:41
Speaker 2: He is an expert diver and he is actually a
18:45
Speaker 2: dive instructor.
18:46
Speaker 1: Well.
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Speaker 10: I do a lot of police diving also and just
18:49
Speaker 10: into emergency diving, and so I'm looking at this on
18:51
Speaker 10: Google Maps, and it's a relatively closed area, so that
18:54
Speaker 10: makes it a lot easier than having to go into
18:56
Speaker 10: the ocean or a great lake or the chestbea bay,
18:59
Speaker 10: so it makes it a little easier for the divers.
19:01
Speaker 10: It's also I just looked it up it's only four
19:02
Speaker 10: to six feet deep, so that also makes a lot
19:05
Speaker 10: more simple to do a dive operation. But what they
19:07
Speaker 10: could be doing is they're goulda be looking for anything
19:10
Speaker 10: that they can find. And one thing that your listeners
19:12
Speaker 10: and watchers need to understand is anything that exists above
19:16
Speaker 10: water exists underwater. People use it as a garbage dump.
19:19
Speaker 10: We find you name it, bikes, washing machines, shopping carts.
19:24
Speaker 10: So there's a lot of debris. The more people that
19:26
Speaker 10: are around, the more people use that as a dumping ground.
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Speaker 10: But there's two things that I imagine they're looking for
19:31
Speaker 10: just listening to the different news reports and listening to you.
19:34
Speaker 10: They're looking for the firearm, obviously, but that telephone also,
19:37
Speaker 10: they're looking for that. You know, those are both very
19:40
Speaker 10: small items that are relatively easy to discard, and one
19:43
Speaker 10: of the things that if you find an item like that,
19:46
Speaker 10: you're gonna have to recover it. Evidence recovery is the
19:48
Speaker 10: same underwater as it is above water from the police perspective,
19:52
Speaker 10: But the one thing we have to keep in mind
19:54
Speaker 10: is that it's in a different environment. Evidence above water
19:57
Speaker 10: is in air, so they all I can do is
19:59
Speaker 10: keep it in the air that's recovered underwater, you have
20:01
Speaker 10: to recover it with the water. If you take it
20:04
Speaker 10: out of the water, things start to break down relatively quickly.
20:07
Speaker 10: What I'm talking about specifically is fingerprints if you take
20:10
Speaker 10: something out of the water, and fingerprints can last for
20:12
Speaker 10: about a week underwater, so the clock is ticking. But
20:16
Speaker 10: if you remove whether it's a firearm or the telephone
20:19
Speaker 10: or any piece of evidence, you're going to want to
20:21
Speaker 10: take it out of the water and just bring some
20:24
Speaker 10: of the local water with it and then bring that
20:26
Speaker 10: to your forensics office and then they're going to drain
20:29
Speaker 10: the water and then do all the magic that they
20:31
Speaker 10: do to get the fingerprints off of it.
20:33
Speaker 4: Okay, Ben Dobwin is joining me.
20:36
Speaker 2: Not only Dane Professional Services at Virginia Westlingyan, he is
20:39
Speaker 2: a dive instructor and a police diver. Now, Ben, you
20:43
Speaker 2: just taught me something I didn't know. Number One, when
20:47
Speaker 2: items are taken out of the water, you have to
20:52
Speaker 2: preserve them in preferably the abbiant water, the water in
20:56
Speaker 2: which they were in, because the moment they get the
21:00
Speaker 2: it starts to degrade.
21:02
Speaker 1: For instance, fingerprints.
21:03
Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of
21:07
Speaker 2: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a
21:10
Speaker 2: hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan, I wanted
21:14
Speaker 2: to talk to you about the gun, but I want
21:15
Speaker 2: to follow up on what.
21:16
Speaker 1: Dobrain is telling us.
21:18
Speaker 2: Yes, prints are preserved underwater because prints, fingerprints are based
21:24
Speaker 2: on the oil in the body oil water.
21:27
Speaker 1: Get it. You can explain better than me.
21:29
Speaker 6: Go ahead, Yeah, our fingerprints come about as a result
21:32
Speaker 6: of the discharge of the fatty lipids that we have
21:35
Speaker 6: in the pores that surround the print that's left behind. Remember,
21:40
Speaker 6: we don't have fingerprints on the tips of our fingers.
21:42
Speaker 6: We have friction ridges that leave behind fingerprints. So in
21:46
Speaker 6: this particular case, we believe that this is a weapon
21:52
Speaker 6: that has a magazine and nancy. So if you have
21:54
Speaker 6: a magazine, that means that you're going to be pressing
21:58
Speaker 6: down on the rounds as you're loading the magazine in,
22:02
Speaker 6: and also you're touching that surface of the magazine. The
22:06
Speaker 6: magazine is this then fitted into essentially the grip of
22:11
Speaker 6: this weapon and it's kind of in a protected space there.
22:15
Speaker 6: So what Ben is talking about is right on the money.
22:17
Speaker 6: You have this protected space. If you can keep this
22:20
Speaker 6: in the water that it comes from and take that
22:25
Speaker 6: into the lab, they can get around that weapon pretty
22:29
Speaker 6: quickly and raise any kind of latent prints that might
22:32
Speaker 6: be there.
22:32
Speaker 2: You did that so eloquently, Joe Scott, I would have
22:35
Speaker 2: just said, you know, like oil and water don't mix.
22:39
Speaker 2: That's exactly what I'm saying here.
22:41
Speaker 6: That one more thing about it, Yeah, you think about
22:48
Speaker 6: you know, Ben had mentioned how densely populated and all
22:52
Speaker 6: of us have been to Manhattan, how densely populated this area,
22:56
Speaker 6: this guy and pay very close than you what I'm
22:59
Speaker 6: about to say. This guy, if he did this, he
23:02
Speaker 6: ain't the first person to think about dumping a weapon
23:04
Speaker 6: into that lake, all right. So they have a herculean
23:08
Speaker 6: task at hand here dealing around, dealing in this filthy
23:14
Speaker 6: water where they're going to be using their hands, crawling along.
23:18
Speaker 6: How many other weapons are in there? Just because you
23:21
Speaker 6: find a firearm merged doesn't mean it's the firearm that
23:26
Speaker 6: was used.
23:26
Speaker 2: Ben, I want to follow up with you on this
23:29
Speaker 2: is a great thing to throw at Jason Ocean's when
23:32
Speaker 2: we come back. But this guy did so much planning then,
23:37
Speaker 2: But I bet he didn't measure the depth of this
23:40
Speaker 2: lake and has no idea even though it's big, it's
23:45
Speaker 2: twenty acres, I guarantee you he didn't know that it
23:50
Speaker 2: was just four.
23:51
Speaker 4: To six feet deep.
23:52
Speaker 10: And I just found that Google And if you go
23:54
Speaker 10: a little bit further north, it looks like there's the
23:56
Speaker 10: reservoir in the park and that's forty feet deep. So
23:58
Speaker 10: that is significantly I mean, it's obviously you can dive that.
24:01
Speaker 10: It just takes a little bit longer to get down
24:03
Speaker 10: and get up. But four to six feet is super easy.
24:05
Speaker 10: If they find something, they can just pop their head
24:07
Speaker 10: out of the water and look at it. And the
24:09
Speaker 10: what he just said is we've done training dives in
24:12
Speaker 10: local lakes where we have found multiple guns when we
24:15
Speaker 10: weren't looking for I mean, we're just doing a training
24:17
Speaker 10: dive and we found guns. I found a flint lock pistol.
24:19
Speaker 10: I wasn't looking for one time, because you know, in
24:21
Speaker 10: a populated era of people think, oh, if I discard
24:24
Speaker 10: a firearm in this lake, nobody will ever find it. Well,
24:26
Speaker 10: you know it's hard to see, but if people are
24:28
Speaker 10: looking for it, they're gonna find it.
24:30
Speaker 12: You know.
24:30
Speaker 10: The New York City Police dive team is one of
24:32
Speaker 10: the most respected in the world. If it's in that
24:34
Speaker 10: little area there, they're going to find something.
24:44
Speaker 2: Crime Stores with Nancy Gray. Also in the last days,
24:52
Speaker 2: lawyers for Luigimnngioni claim prosecutors illegally obtained his medical records.
25:01
Speaker 2: Mangoni's defense team is demanding an evidentiary hearing in the matter,
25:06
Speaker 2: claiming prosecutors compelled ETNA to hand over Mangioni's medical record,
25:13
Speaker 2: including different diagnoses and specific medical complaints. And they also
25:20
Speaker 2: claim an assistant DA reviewed some of the files the
25:25
Speaker 2: Manhattan District Attorney's offices. It requested very limited info from ETNA,
25:31
Speaker 2: but the company sent over much more additional materials in error,
25:38
Speaker 2: which means it wasn't the District Attorney's fault. Wow, they're
25:41
Speaker 2: really splitting hairs now. I wonder if these medical records
25:46
Speaker 2: can destroy Mangione's defense. Maybe something to do with a
25:52
Speaker 2: bad back or lack thereof. What do we know about
25:57
Speaker 2: the Mangione case? Apt in western Pennsylvania in the Altoona
26:03
Speaker 2: area at a local McDonald's. He has now been arrested
26:07
Speaker 2: on charges relating to a gun, sources telling us it
26:12
Speaker 2: was a so called ghost gun, a gun that has
26:15
Speaker 2: no serial number that is often put together with a kit.
26:19
Speaker 2: The parts of the gun purchased or obtained separately, a
26:25
Speaker 2: ghost gun and a silencer, along with a hand written
26:29
Speaker 2: manifesto attacking the healthcare industry.
26:32
Speaker 1: Wow.
26:34
Speaker 2: Joining me right now is expert Tom Smith, NYPD, detective
26:40
Speaker 2: thirty years and the star of the gold Shields podcast.
26:45
Speaker 2: Tom again, thank you for being with us. We've learned
26:47
Speaker 2: a lot about the gun. At first, it looks like
26:51
Speaker 2: it's been manipulated with a homemade silencer on it. We
26:56
Speaker 2: are now understanding that is not made silence, sir, that
27:01
Speaker 2: this is a weapon that is often used by veterinarians
27:06
Speaker 2: to put down that's nice word for it, animals.
27:09
Speaker 4: The magazine is in the grip. And when many people
27:14
Speaker 4: thought that.
27:15
Speaker 2: It was jamming and he was clearing it after each shot,
27:18
Speaker 2: which I thought he did really calmly and methodically, we
27:21
Speaker 2: now know it may be a bolt action that has
27:24
Speaker 2: to be manually cycled after each shot.
27:28
Speaker 1: That changes things.
27:29
Speaker 12: Tom Smith, Yes, it does because now he knows he's
27:32
Speaker 12: proficient in that weapon, knowing every time he fires it,
27:35
Speaker 12: he's going to have to chamber around. And if I
27:37
Speaker 12: could show you real quick, this is a glock, not
27:39
Speaker 12: the same weapon that was used, but but similar functioning.
27:44
Speaker 12: Every time he fires that weapon, he'd have to click
27:47
Speaker 12: it like this in order to chamber around to fire
27:49
Speaker 12: the next round. And the thing about him is he
27:52
Speaker 12: knows the weapon because he knows that's coming. It's not
27:55
Speaker 12: a surprise to him. So he fires around, has to
27:58
Speaker 12: clear it, fire another round, clear to chamber around each time,
28:02
Speaker 12: and he knows the weapon and he knows that he's
28:05
Speaker 12: coming and has to do that, and that's why he
28:08
Speaker 12: stays kind of calm. Any other criminal I've ever dealt
28:11
Speaker 12: with in New York City, what's a weapons jams, they
28:15
Speaker 12: throw it away, they run. He knows exactly how this
28:18
Speaker 12: weapon is being used.
28:19
Speaker 2: Okay, for once, the movie's got it right, Tom Smith,
28:22
Speaker 2: because in the movies you always see the person jam
28:25
Speaker 2: the weapon and they just throw it or they throw
28:27
Speaker 2: it at the person they're shooting at. Here when you
28:31
Speaker 2: look at the video, he's walking toward the victim. I
28:37
Speaker 2: guarantee you, Tom Smith, this guy practiced probably at a
28:41
Speaker 2: gun range.
28:43
Speaker 12: Oh yeah, and you probably have practiced with that weapon, because,
28:46
Speaker 12: like I said, there's a big difference when you're viewing
28:48
Speaker 12: this whether someone's panicking or anticipating the movement he's doing.
28:53
Speaker 12: He knows what he has to do to fire that weapon.
28:56
Speaker 12: You know.
28:56
Speaker 2: I want you to explain one more time for novices
28:59
Speaker 2: out there about the bolt action. We now don't believe
29:03
Speaker 2: the gun was jamming everybody. We believe it was a
29:06
Speaker 2: bolt action that has to be manually recycled after every shot.
29:11
Speaker 2: Could you explain that and demonstrate one more time, please, Tom.
29:15
Speaker 12: Yeah, this is a nine millimeter weapon and the magazine
29:19
Speaker 12: port is in here. Just like you mentioned, it's at
29:22
Speaker 12: the bottom of the handle. So once a round is fired,
29:24
Speaker 12: he has to manually clear that round to chamber another
29:28
Speaker 12: round in order to fire it. He'll fire it again
29:31
Speaker 12: and do the same thing over and over again. So,
29:33
Speaker 12: like I said, he's very aware of how that gun
29:36
Speaker 12: he's used and what he used to do to fire.
29:39
Speaker 2: You know another issue, Tom Smith, and I'm going to
29:41
Speaker 2: bring everybody back in in just a second, But Tom,
29:45
Speaker 2: another feature of this particular gun that is traditionally used
29:49
Speaker 2: by veterinarians to put down animals is it has a
29:56
Speaker 2: very quiet shot, very quiet it shot. And the gun
30:01
Speaker 2: we're talking about has a long as we saw, could
30:06
Speaker 2: you hold yours up again as a very long barrel
30:11
Speaker 2: like that? This one even seemed a little bit longer
30:14
Speaker 2: than yours. And that can be confused because it looks
30:18
Speaker 2: like a silencer, but it's not.
30:21
Speaker 12: It's a long weapon and easier to aim because you
30:26
Speaker 12: have more of an angle of your target in front
30:28
Speaker 12: of you. So, like I said, he is very aware
30:31
Speaker 12: of how this weapon is used and what it needs
30:34
Speaker 12: to do to fight.
30:35
Speaker 2: Is this gun is a specialized gun. This guy practiced
30:40
Speaker 2: and practiced, and he had everything planned out.
30:42
Speaker 4: You know, he practiced with the murder weapon.
30:46
Speaker 2: He didn't just trot over to Connecticut and buy a
30:48
Speaker 2: gun and then use.
30:49
Speaker 1: It the next day.
30:50
Speaker 2: That did not happen. Think of the mindset here. This
30:54
Speaker 2: is a gun he brought with him on a bus.
30:56
Speaker 2: Didn't got on a plane because he couldn't get through
30:58
Speaker 2: Tsa with a gun.
30:59
Speaker 1: For Pea and.
31:02
Speaker 2: The airlines know who you are, they have your picture,
31:05
Speaker 2: they have you every three feet in the airport.
31:08
Speaker 1: He didn't want that.
31:09
Speaker 4: He wanted to travel with his gun.
31:12
Speaker 1: What criminal that's.
31:14
Speaker 2: Practiced and practiced and planned and plan was to use
31:16
Speaker 2: an aligen gun.
31:17
Speaker 12: Well, it's hard to trace. That's why if you're using
31:21
Speaker 12: a normal weapon with a serial number and so forth,
31:23
Speaker 12: it's easily traced, whether you find it in a month
31:26
Speaker 12: or a year. This we have no idea whether there's
31:29
Speaker 12: any serial numbers on it, whether there's any distinguishing markings
31:33
Speaker 12: on it. So it could be very benign in the
31:37
Speaker 12: in identifying it. And that's why he paid.
31:39
Speaker 2: What I'm saying, doctor Bethany Marshall, is that this guy
31:42
Speaker 2: did not just go into a gun shop and buy
31:45
Speaker 2: the gun just before the murder. If he planned this
31:49
Speaker 2: methodically to get to Manhattan and to carry out this crime,
31:53
Speaker 2: staking out the scene the moment he got there November
31:56
Speaker 2: twenty four to ten pm.
31:57
Speaker 4: He didn't go to bed. He went to this look
32:00
Speaker 4: where the forum was going to be held. He didn't
32:05
Speaker 4: buy a new gun.
32:08
Speaker 1: I don't think.
32:09
Speaker 2: I think he brought his preferred weapon with him after
32:12
Speaker 2: practicing for hours on end.
32:14
Speaker 9: This guy is upper middle class. This guy has money,
32:17
Speaker 9: He has disposable money, and he had access to a
32:20
Speaker 9: weapon in a professional environment. This is not somebody who
32:23
Speaker 9: goes to a gun shop with a fake ID and
32:26
Speaker 9: tries to skip the background check and gets a gun.
32:30
Speaker 9: This is a man who knows this weapon. This is
32:34
Speaker 9: also a man who has researched where this CEO is
32:37
Speaker 9: going to be.
32:38
Speaker 15: Early reports on the shooting of Brian Thompson pointed to
32:41
Speaker 15: a silencer being used or a modern version of a
32:44
Speaker 15: rare World War two gun. The investigators found themselves looking
32:48
Speaker 15: into a Connecticut gun store they believe may have sold
32:52
Speaker 15: the weapon. That lead did not pan out, but now
32:54
Speaker 15: Chief Detective Joseph Kenney says they are looking into the
32:58
Speaker 15: use of a veterinary gun being used as the murder weapon.
33:01
Speaker 15: Kenny says the weapon is normally used on farms and
33:04
Speaker 15: ranches when an animal needs to be put down. The
33:07
Speaker 15: animal can be shot with this type of weapon that
33:10
Speaker 15: doesn't cause a large noise.
33:11
Speaker 2: The twenty six year old taking into custody on gun
33:15
Speaker 2: charges apparently had a ghost gun, a silencer, multiple fake IDs,
33:22
Speaker 2: and a hand written manifesto attacking the healthcare industry.
33:28
Speaker 4: Is not just this moment.
33:30
Speaker 2: This moment is the culmination of thousands of law enforcement
33:34
Speaker 2: man hours like this.
33:36
Speaker 16: Amid speculation that the shooter traveled to New York on
33:39
Speaker 16: a bus that left from Atlanta, NYPD officers have traveled
33:43
Speaker 16: south for part of their investigation. APD confirmed through a
33:46
Speaker 16: statement that its officers are assisting the NYPD investigators, whom
33:51
Speaker 16: arrived in Atlanta on Saturday. Sources say they are searching
33:55
Speaker 16: through video from the bus station in town and to
33:57
Speaker 16: others along the route to New York City. Officers are
34:01
Speaker 16: working to find a name from tickets purchased for a
34:04
Speaker 16: November twenty fourth Greyhound trip.
34:06
Speaker 2: He noticed, the investigative reporter said, looking for a name,
34:10
Speaker 2: I guarantee you it's not going to be his name.
34:14
Speaker 4: Let me just say that.
34:15
Speaker 2: The security and verification procedures at the bus station a
34:19
Speaker 2: lot less stringent than it is at the airport. He
34:22
Speaker 2: could have gone in with any fake ID and gotten
34:24
Speaker 2: a bus ticket under a fake name, just like he
34:27
Speaker 2: had a fake ID that he got out of Jersey,
34:30
Speaker 2: just like he used a fake ID when he checked
34:33
Speaker 2: into that youth hostel. And speaking of the youth hostel,
34:36
Speaker 2: Lauren Conlin joining the investigative reporter and star a primetime
34:40
Speaker 2: crime on YouTube, Lauren, much was made of him flirting
34:46
Speaker 2: with the receptionist.
34:47
Speaker 4: That's not what happened.
34:48
Speaker 2: We now know that to check into that hostel, and
34:52
Speaker 2: it's not just at a hostel. That's where they're doing it.
34:54
Speaker 2: Fancy hotels too. When they say, you know, we need
34:56
Speaker 2: some ID, look at them. The next time they ask
34:59
Speaker 2: you that, they look back up at your face, right. So, yeah,
35:04
Speaker 2: there was a little flirtation. You can see him smiling
35:06
Speaker 2: right there. That's about ten thousand dollars worth of orthodontia
35:10
Speaker 2: on that mouth right there. But that's another can of worms, Lauren.
35:14
Speaker 2: So I don't know that the clerk was flirting with him.
35:18
Speaker 2: She very well may have said, pulled down your mask.
35:20
Speaker 2: I got to make an id. I mean this is
35:23
Speaker 2: not the rints, okay, right.
35:26
Speaker 1: Right, And you're correct, Nancy.
35:28
Speaker 11: I did visit the hostel, and everybody working there was friendly,
35:33
Speaker 11: not overly friendly. Something I noticed was that there were
35:37
Speaker 11: multiple cameras throughout the lobby of the hostele. There were
35:41
Speaker 11: cameras outside of the hostel as well, So my understanding
35:45
Speaker 11: is they most likely have multiple angles of this guy,
35:49
Speaker 11: of this shooter. I also visited the businesses surrounding the hostel.
35:54
Speaker 11: I went inside to a local bodega. I went inside
35:57
Speaker 11: to a dunkin Donuts and they informed me that they
36:00
Speaker 11: do any sort of talking about what they know to
36:03
Speaker 11: anyone but the NYPD, but also that they turned over
36:07
Speaker 11: footage as well. So I believe that NYPD is going
36:11
Speaker 11: through all of the footage they have right now, which, look,
36:14
Speaker 11: it's gonna take some time. This is not going to
36:16
Speaker 11: happen overnight, but I think there's going to be a
36:18
Speaker 11: lot more and stills being released of this guy and
36:22
Speaker 11: what he did during his time in New York before
36:25
Speaker 11: the shooting.
36:25
Speaker 2: Straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum, let's look at this guy.
36:29
Speaker 2: Who is he? Based on everything we know right.
36:32
Speaker 14: Now, Nancy, I think one thing that's imperative that everybody's
36:36
Speaker 14: not mentioning is when you talk to the clerk at
36:38
Speaker 14: the hostel. If this were my case, the first thing
36:41
Speaker 14: I would have asked her is does he have an accent?
36:44
Speaker 14: And that's why I think again, they are focused on Atlanta.
36:48
Speaker 14: They know where the bus originated, they know what he
36:51
Speaker 14: sounds like. If he's from here, they're gonna know it.
36:54
Speaker 14: The other thing about that weapon, remember we have three words,
36:59
Speaker 14: which means three possible shawecasing, So that gun either jam
37:04
Speaker 14: and we have an unspent or we have three spent,
37:07
Speaker 14: which means he missed one.
37:08
Speaker 2: Possibly a ghost gun, a silence, sir, fake IDs, and
37:15
Speaker 2: a handwritten manifesto attacking the healthcare industry.
37:20
Speaker 1: Sounds like our guy. But what else led to this
37:25
Speaker 1: detainment in Pennsylvania?
37:27
Speaker 2: To doctor Bethany Marshall joining us renowned psychoanalyst. Way in,
37:31
Speaker 2: doctor Bethany, what's your take on it?
37:33
Speaker 1: Who is he?
37:34
Speaker 9: Nancy? This guy is upper middle class, he's educated. He
37:38
Speaker 9: knew to do this hit at the healthcare conference because
37:42
Speaker 9: he's sending a message. If he did it at a
37:44
Speaker 9: traffic stop or at the victim's home, it would not
37:47
Speaker 9: send the message, the scribbling on the ammunition. He caught
37:54
Speaker 9: that from researching internal documents at insurance companies and citing
37:59
Speaker 9: words that employees or claims processors use to deny claims.
38:06
Speaker 9: I am going to guess that he had a family
38:08
Speaker 9: member who has denied care and because of that denied care,
38:13
Speaker 9: the family member died and he cannot get over it.
38:16
Speaker 9: So this is although he looks like a street thug
38:19
Speaker 9: on you know, at first glance, he is not.
38:22
Speaker 2: He's got a square chin, perfect teeth, wax between the eyebrows,
38:30
Speaker 2: eyes going slightly down at the outer edges. He can
38:34
Speaker 2: change a lot, but there are some things he can't change,
38:38
Speaker 2: like his fingerprints and DNA.
38:41
Speaker 6: Joe Scott, Yep, you're absolutely right. Those are unique to him, Nancy.
38:46
Speaker 6: And here's one other thing. I did a little digging
38:49
Speaker 6: one of this this weapon that they keep referring to,
38:52
Speaker 6: that's the veterinarian euthanasia weapon they believe might be a
38:56
Speaker 6: what's referred to as a Station six brand weapon. My
39:00
Speaker 6: research revealed that there are essentially, I think either four
39:05
Speaker 6: or five locations in the metro area where these can
39:09
Speaker 6: be specifically purchased. And I think that if they believe
39:14
Speaker 6: that that's what this is and that he transported it.
39:17
Speaker 6: I think you're on the money here relative to getting
39:19
Speaker 6: on a bus with this thing. He may have picked
39:22
Speaker 6: it up down there at some point in time. And
39:25
Speaker 6: it's not a very efficient weapon for doing the task
39:28
Speaker 6: that he was trying to do, so I don't know,
39:30
Speaker 6: maybe he was trying to you know, he's not going
39:33
Speaker 6: to draw attention to himself, like when you buy a
39:36
Speaker 6: suppressor separately from a weapon, perhaps, and it's not very
39:42
Speaker 6: efficient because you have to you lose your site picture
39:45
Speaker 6: every time you have to rotate that bolt on the
39:47
Speaker 6: back of that weapon, which is what he's doing. He's
39:49
Speaker 6: spending it. I think that many of the answers that
39:54
Speaker 6: we're looking for are probably going to rest as well.
39:57
Speaker 6: And this is something that we will hear a lot about,
39:59
Speaker 6: I believe. With United Healthcare and their chief security officer,
40:04
Speaker 6: who was actually hired back in August of twenty twenty three,
40:07
Speaker 6: I want to know what she knows. I want to
40:10
Speaker 6: know what her assets know within that business. Are there
40:13
Speaker 6: letters that have been written, are their lawsuits that have
40:17
Speaker 6: been filed relative to what doctor Bethany mentioned about healthcare
40:23
Speaker 6: claims that may have been blown off or maybe they
40:25
Speaker 6: didn't receive what they wanted. But trust me, the security
40:28
Speaker 6: apparatus within that company is going to be working.
40:31
Speaker 2: On and of course along with tot Mom Casey Anthony
40:35
Speaker 2: called Mam Laurie Valo. Now Luigi Mangioni has his own
40:40
Speaker 2: documentary called Who Is Luigi Mangioni? Do I care who
40:46
Speaker 2: he is? What I care about is did he gun
40:49
Speaker 2: down an unarmed man in broad daylight?
40:51
Speaker 1: That's what I care about.
40:53
Speaker 2: According to the ad for HBO Max Luigimi Andngoni's Success
40:57
Speaker 2: Driven Life? What success driven life? He was bumming on
41:02
Speaker 2: the Hawaii beaches? Okay, Luigi Minjioni's success driven life? I
41:08
Speaker 2: don't believe that takes a radical detour amid accusations of
41:14
Speaker 2: killing an insurance CEO. Now his secretive world snaps into focus.
41:20
Speaker 2: I don't give a flying fig about his secretive world.
41:23
Speaker 2: What I care about is Canadas State prove murder because
41:26
Speaker 2: now the fans are seeking the death penalty.
41:29
Speaker 1: We wait as justice. I'm false.
41:33
Speaker 2: Goodbye,