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Why storytelling matters in project management · Project Podcast

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Welcome to the OEM podcast. I'm Emma Devita, the editor of
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APM's Project Journal and your host.
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Today's podcast is all about storytelling and why it's a
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great skill to master as a project professional and how to
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go about doing it well. Here to give us her expertise is
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Zoe Arden, author of a new book called Story Centred Leadership,
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Crafting Cultures of Change, which is published by Routledge.
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She is a Fellow at the University of Cambridge
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Institute for Sustainability Leadership and was previously
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Director of Communications at BT, as well as European MD of
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global communications firm Webber Shandwick, among other
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executive roles. So, Zoe, welcome to the podcast.
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Thanks for having me, Emma. It's a pleasure.
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Why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about
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your interest in working storytelling and how does that
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come about? Sure.
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Well, you mentioned there that I've got a background in
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communications and and then I thought I would go in house to
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BT retail as you mentioned where I thought the grass might be
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greener. And what really fascinated me
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was that in every role that I went to, often the conversation
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ended up being, you know, how do we communicate this complicated
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project, whatever it might be, to stakeholders in a way that
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they care and want to be part of making it successful.
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And the more I heard this as I moved into, to different fields,
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I then went into sustainability and leadership.
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And again, it's like, how do we, how do we make this, this topic
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meaningful to others? So there are inspired, engaged,
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motivated and want to be part of making it happen.
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And that's when I really realised that actually it's all
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about stories and sense making and making the complicated
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simple enough for people to want to take action.
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Tell us about your book. Why?
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What do you argue in your book and and why did you want to
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write it? So yeah, here it is.
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I actually only have one copy left.
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Just to show that's good. And I wrote it because having I,
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I've spent years doing leadership and storytelling
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trainings with business people around the world.
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And what I realised was that, you know, people could leave
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those sessions with a narrative that they could use to engage
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their most important stakeholders and that actually
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people found it quite difficult. And that I had a model that
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worked and I really wanted to be able to share it more than just
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the people that I reached through my online and face to
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face training sessions and workshops and coaching.
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And I just passionately believe that actually stories can help
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us rediscover our own sense of agency.
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Now, often we think, oh, you know, if only I was the boss or
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if only, you know, I, I could had the formal power to do
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something about this. And actually how we communicate
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and how we connect with others really can make a massive
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difference both in our personal lives and in our professional
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lives. And I wanted to be able to share
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that that knowledge and, and get people thinking.
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Actually, if I just practise this a little bit, if I use
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these tools, I could do this in a way that would make a massive
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difference for me and my context.
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Do you think everyone can be a storyteller?
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Because not everyone is. I mean, it is.
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It is something partly that you're born with.
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Some people just can tell a good anecdote, can't they?
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But we'll get into what is storytelling when it relates to
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projects in a minute. But do you feel as though
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everyone can improve at this and that there are ways to do that
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well? Yeah, I think absolutely
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everyone can improve how they tell stories and how they engage
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and motivate others. And it is hard work.
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I mean, if we think about the best storytellers, it's stand up
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comedians and they, they literally spend years working on
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their material and seeing the feedback that they're getting
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from audiences and then sort of iterating it and, and changing
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it. And I think, you know, most of
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us, you know, if we're, if we're project professionals or we're
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skilled at what we do, we, we, we're almost burdened with the
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curse of knowledge. And the thing we find most
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difficult is to sort of elevate what we do up to a simple
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message that other people can understand.
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I heard AI had a great expression yesterday when I was
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on a webinar, which was, you know, when we're trying to
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communicate what we do to others, it's simplicity at the
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top and complicated at the bottom.
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And the problem is that we tend to like dish up the complicated
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and you can see like people's eyes start to close over.
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So yes, I absolutely believe it's something that we can all
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get much, much better at. I don't think that many people
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are are born with it. Yes, you don't actually have to
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be like a Jack Dee or a Sarah Pascoe to be a great storyteller
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in in projects. And it I was glad to hear that
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you were talking about simplicity and clarity, which is
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something that OPM have been talking about a lot recently.
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So I would like to ask you then, why do project professionals
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need to be adept storytellers? What are the benefits it brings
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them to their projects? Well.
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I think project professionals are great examples of people who
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are working with complexity. You know, they're trying to
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navigate a lot of change. So actually, how can you come up
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with a, a sort of shared vision that other people can tap into
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something that, you know, it really sort of activates the
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hearts and minds for people so that they want to work alongside
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with you, alongside you to make that possible.
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You know, their project managers are trying to bring together
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many different elements, multiple stakeholders.
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And I think having a, an appreciation for the multiple
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perspectives that you're working with, keeping it human and
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authentic. Now avoid also avoiding
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oversimplified stories as well. These are always that actually
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project professionals can, can bring others alongside, help
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them to achieve, you know, their goals.
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So it's. Kind of motivating A-Team but
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also galvanising everyone behind the ultimate outcomes of what's
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going to be delivered. Yeah, I think can you, can you
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create a shared vision that people can buy into,
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particularly when it doesn't exist yet?
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I'm I'm really taking the time to understand the various
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stakeholders that you're working with.
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What's in it for them? Why should they care?
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And that requires the agility it requires walking in our
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stakeholders shoes a little bit and recognising the what might,
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might motivate Emma on a project might be different to what might
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motivate Zoe on a project. So doing a little bit of that
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heavy lifting initially and, and just spending 5 minutes ahead of
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each conversation thinking, OK, you know, what's what's going on
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for this person? What's their biggest problem
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that I can help solve? Can be transformational and and
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how you can make a project move shift and get where you want it
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to get to. Thank you.
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What about on the career side of things?
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Because I'm sure there'll be lots of ambitious people
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listening. Know full well that being a good
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communicator and being able to clearly communicate about a
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project, whatever the stage you're at and the benefits it
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will deliver is key. But how does storytelling fit in
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to that? I mean, I think.
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Where storytelling fits into that is we've all been in the
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situation where we're thrown into a meeting and we've got 2
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minutes to explain a very, very complicated project to people
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who are not in the weeds of delivering it.
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And I think storytelling techniques can help us come up
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with clarity and sort of really concise sticky messages that
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people in that meeting will take away with them.
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So I, I talk about what's your takeaway message and why is it
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important? And if you can clarify that,
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that really I think can help make a difference with your
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career. We all know what it's like when
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when we're sort of suddenly found ourselves in front of our
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boss or our boss's boss who we get very little FaceTime with.
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Actually, if you can say something with them that lands
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that they take away, you will have made a lasting impact.
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And those are those are storytelling techniques.
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It's being prepared, recognising that people have shorter and
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shorter attention spans. So actually often it's less
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words, more impact. So thinking about what's going
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to move people, because often it the facts and the data don't
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move people. Now actually, it's the stories,
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it's a little anecdote that you might have about the project
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that really brings it alive for the person that you're talking
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to. Yeah, you're right.
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And actually thinking about your own narrative as a professional.
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So the the kind of career journey you're on and how to
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tell this about story and how people perceive you and then
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spotting opportunity. So it's about very succinctly
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but authentically telling people where you're at and what you're
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interested and where you want to go.
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Is that I hadn't thought about that before.
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The kind of story of your career and where you might want to go.
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Yeah, absolutely. And I think the the one aspect
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of stories that's really important to be aware of is
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simple stories and self limiting stories.
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What do you mean by that? So for example, I work with many
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sort of mid career people and they might have a simple story,
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which is if I start to talk about my work and my success and
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why I want to get to the next level, that's going to make me
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pushy. That's going to make me look
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pushy. No, actually.
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And and that stops you acting. So, so sort of getting rid of
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some of those self limiting stories that we have about
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ourselves. And the second thing is I often
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spend time with people thinking about what's the future story
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you want to tell about yourself? No, because we're so busy in the
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moment. Actually, if we could just lift
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our heads up and go, where do I want to be in a couple of years
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time and what's what is that story that I want to tell?
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So just having a little bit of consciousness and practising
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thinking, you know, with a sense of purpose, you know, what are
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my superpowers and how can I illustrate those with pithy
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little examples? And often we, we need other
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people to come in and advocate for us.
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And we can do that with anecdotes from others.
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You know, I was talking to ex client, ex customer, you know,
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ex community member, and they said this about the project.
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And that can be a way of elevating your involvement in
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the project without even saying those words.
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So it's like, wow, that's really incredible.
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You got through those challenges, you know, by
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building better relationships there or solving that problem
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you're using. You're using a third party
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anecdote, which I always talk about anecdotes as like the
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superfood of stories. Yeah.
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I agree. It's like a 62nd anecdote Will
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kind of pivot your headline message and maybe it's like, you
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know, I'm the written I'm the right person to be project
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managing our next our next big client project.
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Do you know what I'm thinking? Because you mustn't get stuck
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telling the same anecdotes over and over again, because then
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you're that person that over Rolls Royce, say, oh, not that
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story again. So it's important to mix it up.
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Yeah. And I think that is, I mean,
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it's another important aspect that I talk about in in the
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book, which is getting outside our own echo chamber and taking
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the time to have conversations with stakeholders who might be
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on the periphery. If we're just talking to people
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like ourselves, we are going to be just telling the same story
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again and again. So it's kind of like I talk
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about going from an echo chamber, moving beyond an ego
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chamber, which is like, Emma, great job.
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Yes, absolutely. That's how we're going to do it
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to a bigger kind of eco chamber. And often our bosses are starved
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of those broader perspectives and we can bring those in.
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So you're right. Yeah.
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Different different perspectives representing different different
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voices can illuminate different aspects of a of a a a complex
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project. Thanks Sarah, I do.
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I do like the idea of an ego chamber though.
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You know what, Emma, we all need an ego chamber from time to
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time, don't we? I agree, I agree times we need
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people that sort of pat us on the back and go, well done you.
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We do. We absolutely do need.
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We need champions and challenges in in our lives.
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Too right? I actually wanted to go right
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down to basics and ask you what is storytelling exactly and what
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isn't it? Because if it's not a term
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you're used to hearing at work, you can think at one end.
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It's like stories you might read to a child before bed to the
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opposite end, which is a very cynical kind of in the thick of
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it, PR PR ring. Not not actually telling the
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truth about things, just blindly trying to get a message across.
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Which people obviously see as inauthentic or I've, I've, I
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would like really like to ask you about that.
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So what is what makes for good storytelling, and what is it
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definitely not? Yeah, yeah, sure.
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There's there's a lot packed into that.
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And I just observed when you were like talking about PR, you
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did a little raise of the eyebrow there.
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And journalist, I think it's. Also worth acknowledging that
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actually we are speaking volumes before we even open our mouths.
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And like, you know, I can interpret, I'm making decisions,
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judgements about what you're saying just with your language.
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So just a note on that for people that spend a lot of time
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being a teeny tiny little box on a team's call or a Zoom call,
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Don't forget people will be looking at you for the energy
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and intent that you're bringing. Do you care about this project?
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But to move back to what storytelling is and what it's
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not, Absolutely it's storytelling.
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It's not fiction. It's not horror stories.
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It's not about caricaturing stakeholders.
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It's we tend to love heroes and villains.
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And actually, if you know what I see a lot of in business is US
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making other functions. Oh, if only procurement could
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get their finger out. If only legal weren't such, you
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know, party poopers. And particularly for like,
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project professionals where you're working across multiple
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disciplines. No, storytelling is not about
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creating heroes and villains and caricaturing others and
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dominating with our own perspective.
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So that storytelling is very much about tuning into your
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audience, listening for what matters, and sharing authentic,
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truthful stories in your own language, not the corporate
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wallpaper. And I, I like to think about
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them as little packets of meaning making that can help you
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accelerate what you're trying to achieve.
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Because we are all wired for stories.
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Our brains are actually filled with quite ancient wiring and
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stories are how we make sense of what's going on in the world.
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And they do motivate us in ways that sort of data doesn't.
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What makes for a good story then?
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How do you pick the right tone, the right line, the right words
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for conveying fairly what it is you want to do with a project?
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So I guess I'm asking you some advice on on telling a good
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story. How do you what do you need to
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think about when you're putting your narrative or your story
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together? Is there any tips or techniques
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you could share? Yeah, sure.
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So I've got a, a sort of a, a circular model in the book which
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goes from story listening to story living.
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And a lot of people try and make miss out the first.
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I mean, it's circular, but story listening is absolutely the most
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essential element of creating stories that are going to help
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you deliver on your projects and succeed.
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And what do you mean by? That yeah.
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What it? Means by is by starting, by
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listening to the people that you're trying to influence, You
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know, what is it that they care about?
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Really digging into why your project is going to be important
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for them. So it's walking in the shoes of
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our stakeholders, seeing what the world looks like through
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their eyes. And that's where our stories
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start. So I think, you know, that's a,
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that's a, a stage that we so often miss out on.
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And I actually hear people go, I don't have the time to do that.
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Well, you're never going to connect with the people that you
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need to have on side if you don't have a sense of what
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matters to them. So that's the most important
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sort of stage I say about creating stories, which often
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people overlook. And it's how do we build them
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collaboratively? How do we get feedback from
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others? So go from story listening to
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story building. You know, some of the essential
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ingredients we talked about, like what is it that people take
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away having had a conversation with us?
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What are the examples that that might really turn the lights on
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for them? Now maybe it's an image now
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maybe it's a picture of, of I don't know if they're, if
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they're, if they're wired that way, maybe a Gantt chart is
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going to light up their, their lives or, you know, an image of
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what, what the project's going to look like when it's
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completed. Or maybe it is a data point
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that's wrapped up in meaning if if a lot of people are hugely
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motivated by data. So start get a sense of what's
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going to move them. And then it's actually about
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story shaping. How do we practise and get
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feedback from others like in our team?
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Do we think this is going to land with Emma?
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You know her better than I do. And then how do we work
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collaboratively, collaboratively with others in our organisation?
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So we're actually sharing stories because, you know,
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stories are a great way of sharing failures and experiments
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as well as successes. And we can learn so much from
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what doesn't work. So that's so those are some of
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the, the key elements really. And I mean, I've maybe made it
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sound a little bit complicated there, but I've got a very
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simple framework in the book, a story framework.
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And I actually use that to write every single chapter of the
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book. And I use that for whether it's
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like creating 70,000 words to a 5 minute conversation and it's
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just providing A framework, a little bit of discipline,
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starting with what are people going to take away having had a
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conversation with me? And that's the starting point of
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your stories. That's really valuable advice.
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I wanted to pick up on telling talking about failure.
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So project professionals like if they have the chance to spend
21:15
time going through lessons learned, So what can they take
21:19
from previous projects that might work?
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But there's a lot around the discussion at the moment about
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how psychological safety is important, the ability for
21:30
people to actually be honest and feel that they will be listened
21:32
to even if they're saying something challenging.
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But I wondered, any advice on how to frame talking about
21:41
something that went wrong? So failure, if you want to
21:46
present that in a way kind of as professional as possible, as
21:51
something that is a is a valuable experience.
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So that's completely different to telling the story of a new
21:58
project and getting people motivated and excited about it
22:02
and perhaps trying to win over stakeholders with the impact of
22:08
that project. So there's a lot of talk as well
22:10
about social impact of projects and the benefits that they
22:13
deliver and being able to tell the story about that.
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But on the flip side, do you have any advice on how to talk
22:20
about failures or things went wrong that you might actually
22:23
personally find quite difficult to talk about and you might feel
22:26
a bit scared about kind of, you know, blame culture and that
22:31
kind of stuff? Yeah.
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So I do, I spend a lot of time working with sort of mid, mid
22:41
and senior career professionals on, on their leadership
22:43
development. And, and that includes how, how,
22:47
how do we create thriving teams? How do we create environments
22:50
where people feel safe to, to question and challenge.
22:55
And so I spent quite a lot of time thinking about how do we
22:58
tell new stories about things like conflict and candour.
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And I think as as project professionals that you have a
23:06
real opportunity to start by creating a shared vision.
23:11
So if you've got like a shared vision, shared vision of where
23:14
the project's going that people buy into, then when as obviously
23:19
happens, you know, you kind of get missteps and mistakes along
23:21
the way, you're still aiming for that.
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And I think it's how do we reframe those difficult
23:30
conversations so that their task and project focused are not sort
23:36
of personally focused. And I think if we're bringing
23:40
that intent, that makes it easier to have a conversation
23:44
about what went wrong because it's like, OK, what can we learn
23:47
from this? You know, we've got multiple
23:49
threads here. Maybe we're doing it like this
23:51
for the first time. Everyone is always doing their
23:54
best. I remember one of the first
23:56
bosses I ever had said, is it cock up or conspiracy?
24:00
No, most of the time it's cock up.
24:03
But, you know, people have got their hearts in the right place.
24:07
So. And I think the most important
24:09
place to start is with questions.
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And how can you start with questions that are actually the
24:15
the sort of energy for the questions is we want to do a
24:19
great project together. No, the energy for the questions
24:22
is not about sort of pointing a finger or assigning blame.
24:29
So, you know, that's something I spend a lot of time for
24:31
questions like, you know, what are we missing?
24:32
What are we not seeing? What could we do differently?
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And I think sort of the neutrality of our questions, but
24:40
having them in a firm foundation of everyone wants the project to
24:45
succeed is a great place to start.
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And actually, if there's someone who doesn't want to put the
24:51
project to seek succeed, yes, it's an uncomfortable
24:53
conversation, but call that out now and and maybe it's, you
24:59
know, there's a deeper, deeper element that will create a
25:02
fruitful, rich discussion in itself.
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So I think I would really encourage people to sort of step
25:09
into those uncomfortable conversations, but with the very
25:13
clear framing that it's about ultimately the success of the
25:17
project and everyone being able to do a great job.
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And what I'm talking to you and thinking about storytelling, the
25:23
more I see that everything could be related back to storytelling.
25:28
I mean welcome. To my world, Emma.
25:34
We've talked a little bit, well you've shared the kind of
25:38
broader framework about how to create a good story or ace an
25:43
effective story. Could you give us some tips or
25:48
advice on the skills you need, the actual art of telling a
25:51
story as a person, as an individual?
25:54
How do you go about delivering the story?
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Is there anything you've learnt through or many years kind of
25:58
working in this field that that people might be able to use to
26:02
put into practise? Yeah.
26:05
So, so a couple of things. I mean, the first thing I'd say
26:08
is, you know, I often start my sessions getting people to share
26:12
what I call stories of passion, you know, which kind of like I
26:15
make people go, oh, what's that? And I think practise sharing
26:20
stories about things that you're passionate about outside work
26:24
now that builds that fluent fluency.
26:27
And you know, what it feels like in your body when you're telling
26:29
a story, whether it's a family occasion or with friends, or
26:33
maybe you're in a team and you're telling a story about
26:36
your latest, you know, win. We feel that sort of energy, we
26:41
feel the connection. We've got the sort of fluidity
26:45
in our bodies. So I think have that starting
26:48
point of what it feels like either to personally share a
26:52
great story or receive a great story and like notice what's
26:56
going on. You know, we're relaxed, we're
26:59
smiling, there's eye contact. You know, we're, we're kind of
27:04
like our bodies are loose. You know, we're not got our
27:06
hands jammed into our, our pockets or out, you know, arms
27:10
tightly folded. So firstly, get that I kind of
27:14
call, call that, you know, warming up our story muscles.
27:19
And that's a great place to start because then we sometimes
27:22
notice that when we're in work, you know, we are all tight and
27:27
kind of PO faced and using jargon and acronyms and we're
27:32
like, well, I'm not doing that when I'm telling stories my
27:34
mates at the weekend. So firstly, you know, develop
27:38
like warm up your story muscles and, and, and start to seek,
27:41
seek out great stories and great storytellers because we can
27:46
learn so much from that. So, so that's a that's a great
27:50
starting point. You know, find some people to
27:53
that you that will give you honest feedback, which is
27:57
actually do. I got this, for example, when I
27:59
left, when I left Weber, I got a leaving card and it was lovely.
28:04
All my little kind of little, you know, idiosyncrasies were
28:09
highlighted and nice photos. And then there was a line in
28:12
there which said has been documented to say the words, you
28:16
know, 22 times in a minute. And it was absolutely horrified.
28:22
You know, these were my, these were my kind of filler, filler
28:25
words. And I even, I didn't even know
28:29
that I was saying them. So we all have little verbal or
28:32
visual ticks that we might be unaware of.
28:36
There's a horrible expression. We're all on the wrong side of
28:39
our own eyeballs. No so, so you can hold up a
28:43
mirror and go. Do you realise when you're
28:46
speaking you spend the whole time fiddling with your ear or
28:49
you're going like this with your mouth?
28:51
So find people who and that will give you honest, honest feedback
28:58
and be and be prepared to accept it.
29:01
That's the hard bit, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
29:03
So those would be two, two starting points that I would say
29:09
practise and ask others for feedback.
29:13
And actually the third one, I'd say Emma is most people do not
29:18
feel comfortable standing up and and talking in front of a room.
29:22
And sometimes it really, really helps to say no.
29:28
I'm, I'm quite nervous because this is a topic I really care
29:31
about. This project is important to me.
29:34
Now. Put yourself in the room.
29:36
Show other people that you care about this.
29:40
Sometimes if we say, you know, I'm a little bit nervous that
29:43
this, this project is an experiment.
29:47
We've not done it this way before.
29:50
That kind of, you know, personal commitment really makes the
29:55
difference. You know, we do this work
29:57
because we care and we care about the outcome.
30:01
And so actually showing that we care and saying that we care or
30:05
at the moment we're feeling a bit nervous is absolutely fine.
30:09
That's a really good point. I'm just thinking of a scenario
30:12
because project professionals often have to have difficult
30:16
conversations that might be with partners on the project or it
30:20
might be with stakeholders, people who don't want the
30:23
project to happen for whatever reason.
30:27
So I guess you don't you're allowed to say that we don't
30:32
have all the answers or I don't know how to phrase that really.
30:37
But if you're telling a story and you yourself have doubts
30:41
about story you're telling, how how do you deal with that in an
30:47
effective way? Because I think you're saying
30:50
just then about showing a bit of vulnerability because you
30:53
actually care about something. But also, how do you go about
30:57
telling the story of a project to people who might not
31:00
necessarily be on board with the project in a way that could
31:07
bring them round or just be more accepting of what's going on?
31:11
So there's a lot wrapped up in that.
31:14
So I think recognising that sometimes it's about clarity,
31:20
not certainty, you know, we might not have the route map
31:26
like all the detail, but as long as we can still kind of evolve
31:30
where we're going together, that can help.
31:34
Secondly, as you say, you know, people that aren't quite on
31:38
board actually having an honest conversation and thinking with
31:43
ourselves going, are am I the right person to try and convince
31:46
them? Maybe, for example, I don't know
31:50
if it's like a project in a residential area, maybe there
31:56
are other people who would be better tellers of this.
31:59
This story is another aspect. Sometimes we're just not the
32:05
right person. It might be someone else in our
32:07
team. It might be, you know, someone
32:10
in another part of the delivery of the project that is a better
32:16
communicator and persuader. Sometimes we need to play the
32:19
long game. You know, we're not going to get
32:22
them on side in one conversation.
32:24
Now recognise that your story might have multiple chapters and
32:29
we we're not going to nail it in this moment, however urgent it
32:33
is for us, it's not urgent for them right now.
32:36
And and often, like in my work, I say to people, again, it goes
32:39
back to this listening piece. You might be listening for a
32:41
long time and that listening has to be listening to learn and
32:48
listening to see. You know, it's not about
32:50
listening to win or listening to fix.
32:55
So it's the slow, slow, quick element really, you know, of, of
32:59
bringing people alongside. Sometimes our role as sort of
33:05
story centred leaders is to create the space for other
33:10
people to step in. And actually, sometimes the most
33:14
powerful thing we can say is I don't know, what do you think?
33:19
No, Recognise that it's a Co creation.
33:22
Give other people the opportunity to step in with
33:25
different perspectives, different solutions, different
33:28
ideas. You know, if we're literally
33:31
like this, you know, holding it so tight because it's got to be
33:34
done the way we want it to be done, we're going to suck all
33:36
the oxygen out of it. That that's making me think that
33:42
that's highly relevant to leadership and your leadership
33:45
style and and that's how storytelling can relate to that.
33:51
Our stories start with knowing ourselves and, and just just one
33:55
quick misperception there. You know, we often think the
33:58
leaders are people who are much, much higher up than us.
34:01
You know, we can lead in our, whatever our context, you know,
34:05
it's whether it's in conversations with our
34:07
neighbours over parking disputes, whether it's, you
34:10
know, forcing ourselves to, to have those connective
34:13
conversations, even though our siblings are annoying us, You
34:17
know, through to actually, you know, how, how can we lead in a
34:22
conversation with our manager or another colleague?
34:26
It's that it's that story living piece.
34:28
Now how? How are we?
34:29
How are we being an example? I think so.
34:33
That's great. We need to wrap up quite soon.
34:37
But before I ask you kind of the do's and don'ts for any final
34:40
takeaways, you'd like people to go away with AI data.
34:46
It's everyone's obsessing with it quite rightly at the moment.
34:51
What role does using data and AI in storytelling have or, or what
34:58
are the possibilities? I know you mentioned earlier,
35:02
could you just tell us a bit more about what you think around
35:04
that? Yeah, sure.
35:06
So I think, you know, we've we've been dealing with data for
35:12
a gazillion years and it's really important.
35:16
Sometimes that's absolutely the first thing you need to share to
35:20
have credibility. And what I'd always say is wrap
35:23
it in meaning. So it's like what that means is,
35:28
you know, sometimes we can do numbers and percentages and
35:31
people don't get it. So it's why we often talk about
35:34
number of Olympic sized swimming pools or, you know, to the moon
35:39
and back. We can we we start to create a
35:41
picture. So that's the first thing about
35:43
data. And AII think, you know, is I
35:45
have a very other positive view about AI.
35:49
If we can use it to help clarify our thinking and accelerate, you
35:57
know, solutions, that's absolutely brilliant.
36:00
It's not going away. Let's embrace it, but let's make
36:03
sure that we keep the human at the heart of it.
36:08
You know, it's it's going to be it, it's humans that are that
36:12
are making things happen with the support of AI.
36:16
And actually, it's humans that can create, you know, better
36:20
stories, you know, underpinned by great technology.
36:24
It's it's our software that makes a difference at the end of
36:27
the day. And I'd argue that stories of
36:28
technology as well. Brilliant.
36:32
Thank you. Always nice to hear something
36:34
positive about all the kind of transformational change that's
36:37
happening rather than being terrified of it.
36:41
Just to wrap up then, because you've given us a, we've delt
36:44
into many areas around storytelling.
36:47
Could you give me your do's and don'ts, if you if, if it's
36:51
possible to do that and and any kind of final takeaway for for
36:56
listeners? So I'd say do's and don'ts do
37:00
just start, do start to see that stories can really help you.
37:07
And that starts with, you know, listening actively respect your
37:12
audience and start to, to to share little stories and just
37:17
TuneIn to what's working. It's like you said, once you
37:19
start to tune in, you can see the impact that stories can
37:24
have. And I would also say do TuneIn
37:27
to your own sense of agency. It's often so easy to get
37:31
overwhelmed with a complicated project, but actually every
37:35
conversation can count. Every conversation can help you
37:39
be one step closer to success. And I would say in terms of
37:43
story don'ts, don't ignore feedback.
37:50
Don't think that practising is saying inside your head, don't
37:59
rely on PowerPoint. You know, PowerPoint kills
38:02
stories and don't mock or caricature the multiple
38:08
stakeholders that you're dealing with.
38:10
Now, if you if you see if you're calling someone a block blocker
38:14
now, maybe start to think about how they might be a late bloomer
38:18
rather than a blocker. And so just try different,
38:22
different ways. So, so those, those are some,
38:24
some do's and don'ts like just this.
38:27
And first, start practising. Keep it human.
38:29
Use language that feels comfortable to you, not not the
38:34
corporate wallpaper. And like, get outside your
38:37
comfort zone and your echo chamber.
38:40
I feel as though one danger, one of the don'ts, is to present a
38:45
story that is very good news or unrealistic or based on the very
38:50
best outcome that might happen. So this kind of optimism bias
38:54
and, and going beyond that though, it's I think it's termed
38:57
strategic misrepresentation. So it's very much telling a
39:00
story to your own personal or a group's benefit, when in fact
39:05
it's not really rooted in reality unless you know
39:10
everything aligns and. You know.
39:13
That you're asking for something that's not really going to
39:15
happen. What advice would you give
39:19
around that? Because that's something that is
39:21
being talked to kind of discussed a lot as well within
39:24
the project profession. And how?
39:26
How do you be more realistic in the stories that you tell?
39:30
We're not, we're not in the business of fairy stories.
39:33
We don't have magic wands. And if you're telling, you know,
39:38
an over simplistic, happy clappy story, well, unless you've got a
39:44
magic wand, it's not going to happen.
39:46
And I think it's about building credibility.
39:48
And I do like this, this idea of sort of simplification at the
39:52
top and like the complication at the bottom.
39:55
It's no it you're probably in a project going to be telling a
40:01
story with multiple chapters. So it's absolutely fine to have
40:05
your scenario your imagine the happy ending where you're going
40:11
to get there. But you're only going to be
40:15
successful if you can bring people on the journey of where
40:19
you are now. And I think, you know, that's
40:22
about self-awareness, recognising, of course, you
40:25
know, we love, we love a good news story, but the chances are
40:30
it's going to backfire on us. I think just just be honest and,
40:34
and even when it feels uncomfortable, this is where we
40:37
are. This is where we'd like to be
40:40
and these the missing pieces. So how are we going to
40:42
collaborate together to make it to make it possible?
40:45
What do you do? This is difficult question.
40:48
What do you do when you start to lose faith in the story that
40:52
you've been told to tell or that you initially believed in, but
40:58
things, you know, things happen to knock a project, of course,
41:03
external, internal, whatever. How do you then keep faithful to
41:08
that story? Or is it a matter of re nosing
41:13
sort of changing the path of that story?
41:16
Have you seen that happen? Have you spoken to people about
41:19
that, that side of things? Yes, yeah, yeah, I have.
41:23
And and I think that's the nature that we're operating in
41:27
right now, isn't it? And actually what holds us back
41:30
so often is having a a story that we're never going to
41:34
achieve. No, and like I talked earlier
41:36
about self limiting stories, it might be a story about our
41:39
expectations of how we and our team are going to perform in
41:43
this situation. And often it's a case of going
41:47
back to the drawing board on the listening piece.
41:49
Now what have we missed actually has our, has our shared vision
41:54
of where we're going to get to changed and, and establishing at
42:00
the beginning that this isn't easy.
42:02
It's not, it's not a fairy story, there aren't any happy
42:05
endings. It's going to be complex.
42:11
But if we can come, come to it with the right intent and
42:13
recognise that we are going to be learning along the way and
42:16
the story will change. So those conversations are
42:22
uncomfortable. Everyone's been in a project
42:25
where there's scope creep or the brief just wasn't clear at the
42:29
beginning. People didn't know what they
42:31
wanted. And you know, 18 months in,
42:33
you're realising actually they wanted something completely
42:35
different. I think that's the nature of,
42:39
of, of, of complexity. So I, I just think, I just think
42:44
it's saying this, this, it's the honest piece, which is actually,
42:49
we want different things. Can we, can we like, can we
42:52
agree on on a shared vision of where we want to get to and go
42:57
back to the drawing board and reading Often that insight where
43:01
things aren't working is perhaps someone who doesn't have a voice
43:04
at the table. So it's like, how do we seek out
43:07
those perspectives so we can find out about those things
43:10
early rather than late? So he just sees me so massive
43:14
thank you for your time. Excellent advice and tips for
43:19
project professionals. So thanks very much for joining
43:21
us. Thanks, Emma.