Latest / UNCHAINEDTV'S Truth Files with Jane Velez-Mitchell / UnchainedTV: Wayne Hsiung just avoided 16-years in prison. He's disappointed!

Transcript

UnchainedTV: Wayne Hsiung just avoided 16-years in prison. He's disappointed! · UNCHAINEDTV'S Truth Files with Jane Velez-Mitchell

0:01
I am so honoured to be having a
0:04
conversation today with I would say the animal
0:06
rights man of the hour, Wayne Shung, who
0:09
has really risked more time in prison than
0:13
anyone I've ever met to speak up for
0:15
voiceless animals.
0:17
And we have a breaking news to tell
0:20
you about amazing, amazing developments.
0:24
This is an open rescue in Wisconsin that
0:27
occurred in 2017.
0:29
There you see Wayne Shung going into this
0:32
beagle laboratory breeding facility.
0:34
Well, all charges have just been dropped.
0:37
All charges have just been dropped.
0:39
And this video, courtesy Direct Action Everywhere, shows
0:42
some of, there's one they rescued.
0:44
They rescued three beagles in all.
0:47
Look at that distress spinning.
0:49
And Wayne could have done 16 years in
0:53
prison along with his two co-defendants.
0:55
But the breaking news is that that's not
0:59
going to happen because the state of Wisconsin
1:01
just decided to drop all the charges.
1:05
Wayne, thank you so much for being here
1:07
with us.
1:07
What do you make of the fact that
1:09
you were set to go on trial the
1:11
11th hour after something that happened way back
1:15
in 2017 they dropped the charges?
1:19
This might be surprising for a lot of
1:21
your viewers to hear, but my first reaction
1:23
when I heard an attorney downstairs at our
1:26
Airbnb screaming that the charges had been dismissed
1:28
was disappointment and frustration.
1:31
And the reason is, while this case was
1:33
going to be incredibly risky for me, and
1:35
I cried when I left San Francisco because
1:37
I had to leave my family behind, it
1:39
was also an incredibly important opportunity for us
1:42
to litigate important questions of not just law
1:44
but ethics, including whether companies are entitled to
1:47
treat dogs like mere things or whether they're
1:50
living beings of rights.
1:51
We still have a lot of solutions for
1:54
trying to address that problem, but one of
1:56
those solutions was taken off the table because
1:58
if we're not being charged, we can't offer
2:00
the very important legal defences we were planning
2:03
to offer in court.
2:04
I want to play just one minute of
2:09
what it's like inside that facility.
2:11
Now, hang in there, because these beagles are
2:15
there 24-7, 365, until they're transported out
2:20
of a lab.
2:21
See if you can handle it for one
2:23
minute.
3:25
Unbelievable.
3:27
What did it feel like in there when
3:28
you were doing your open rescue, Wayne?
3:32
It's a really interesting phenomenon that when you
3:35
go into a place where there are a
3:36
lot of animals who are afraid, you start
3:39
feeling that fear yourself.
3:41
And to have 3,000 dogs barking, howling,
3:45
clawing at the cage doors, spinning psychotically because
3:48
of the anguish of their life in a
3:49
cage, it sends tremors down your spine.
3:54
I've only been in one other place in
3:55
my life that I felt as disturbed as
3:58
the way I felt when I walked into
3:59
that facility, and that was when I was
4:00
outside of a dog meat slaughterhouse in China
4:02
watching dogs being beaten to death.
4:04
And the footage you just showed is just
4:05
the tip of the iceberg.
4:06
It's honestly not the worst stuff that we
4:08
shot because every single one of these dogs
4:10
was not just trapped in a cage, but
4:12
many of them were suffering from serious infections
4:15
and foot injuries from staying on wire their
4:17
entire lives.
4:18
Many of them were on the way to
4:21
being subjected to God-awful experiments, force-fed
4:25
toxic substances, mutilated in surgical procedures, all sorts
4:28
of vile things that hardly can be imagined
4:31
by most human beings.
4:32
And all of it was being hidden from
4:33
the public, and this trial was going to
4:36
be an opportunity to litigate not just the
4:40
question of whether we committed a crime by
4:41
taking that blind beagle puppy out of a
4:42
cage, but whether these animals were entitled to
4:46
legal protections and rescue.
4:47
And whether ordinary citizens, when the government is
4:49
not acting, just have the right to go
4:51
right in there and help them ourselves.
4:52
We've got tonnes of callers lining up.
4:54
Tiffany in Los Angeles, your question or thought
4:57
for Wayne Chung.
5:00
Wayne, thank you so much for everything that
5:03
you've done, and you've risked everything.
5:06
I wanted to, and I'm going to come
5:08
out, I was coming out for the trial,
5:10
but I'll be out for the rally.
5:12
And I wanted to ask you, what is
5:13
your opinion why the charges were dropped?
5:17
So I'm in the process of writing a
5:20
blog about this, which will go up shortly.
5:22
But briefly, what happened in the weeks before
5:25
trial was two things.
5:26
One is we sent what's called a subpoena
5:28
deuces tecum to Ridgeland Farms, indicating that because
5:33
we're entitled to legal defence, and because they're
5:35
alleging we stole $2,700 in property from
5:38
the company, we sent a subpoena to the
5:40
company, asking them for certain records regarding the
5:43
actual treatment of the animals at their facility.
5:46
And lo and behold, a week and a
5:48
half after we sent that request, which was
5:50
legally binding, they have to give us these
5:51
documents because we're entitled to defend ourselves, the
5:54
prosecution suddenly loses interest in the case.
5:56
But the second really important thing that happened
5:58
that could explain why they dismissed the charges
6:00
is a week and a half before they
6:03
filed the motion to dismiss, we filed a
6:06
motion arguing that we were entitled to rescue
6:09
these animals under certain good Samaritan provisions of
6:12
Wisconsin law.
6:13
It's kind of the dog in a hot
6:14
car situation where if a dog is being
6:16
mistreated, or even just suffering, you can just
6:19
break a window in Wisconsin, take that dog
6:21
out.
6:21
And there's no reason if we can break
6:23
a window to save a dog from a
6:24
hot car, we can't also break open a
6:26
cage door and save a blind beagle puppy
6:28
who's psychotically spinning in a cage.
6:31
And the legal principle behind this, which is
6:33
called legal necessity, has implications far beyond one
6:36
case because the idea behind necessity is that
6:39
when you take action to help a suffering
6:41
animal, you are not just protecting a thing,
6:44
you're protecting a legal person who has rights.
6:47
And I think both the prosecution and the
6:50
broader industry were terrified about the prospect that
6:52
the judge was about to rule in our
6:54
favour behind the notion that animals are not
6:57
mere things, as the government argued, but are
7:00
legal persons who deserve rights.
7:02
Because the implications of a ruling like that
7:05
dogs far beyond Ridgeland Farms to the entire
7:09
infrastructure of animal abuse across the entire country.
7:12
We have yet another caller.
7:14
Boy, they're lining up.
7:15
Jamie in Los Angeles, your question or thought
7:17
for Wayne Chung, co-founder of DxE, co
7:20
-founder of The Simple Heart.
7:23
Hi, Wayne.
7:24
It's Jamie Logan.
7:25
Thank you so much for everything that you're
7:26
doing.
7:27
I just wanted to know how the average
7:29
person can take steps to get involved in
7:33
animal rescue and really step it up to
7:35
change the game for animals.
7:40
In many ways, it's not that complicated.
7:43
I was told by my mother, my grandmother,
7:46
since the time I was a kid, that
7:48
when you see someone who's suffering, you try
7:50
to help.
7:50
And that's the basic principle behind Open Rescue,
7:53
that we see someone who needs our help
7:54
and we help them.
7:55
And there are obviously so many different legal,
7:59
political, narrative dimensions to that tactic.
8:03
But the basic principle that we're all operating
8:06
under and that you can operate under if
8:07
you want to be part of this movement
8:08
is when you identify an animal needs help,
8:11
go out and help them.
8:12
Now, obviously, I don't want to encourage people
8:15
to take on especially risky rescues without some
8:18
sort of legal support, which is why I'm
8:19
excited that we've got amazing attorneys, including Murray,
8:23
who's on this call.
8:23
The University of Denver has an activist defence
8:27
project led by Justin Marceau, one of the
8:29
most distinguished constitutional law scholars in our nation,
8:31
who defended us in Ridgeland and will be
8:34
defending activists in future cases.
8:36
So by all means, get some legal support
8:38
and make sure you understand what the risks
8:40
are before you take action.
8:42
But my view is all of us have
8:44
the power to take animals out of these
8:46
horrific situations.
8:46
And this is our dream.
8:48
I mean, when we watch this awful slaughterhouse
8:50
footage, this awful footage from laboratories and breeding
8:52
facilities, the thing that we all want more
8:55
than anything else, and then I think most
8:56
Americans want more than anything else, is to
8:59
take those animals out and give them the
9:00
love and care they deserve.
9:02
And we have to recognise the power we
9:03
have in our hands.
9:04
Every single person listening to this interview has
9:08
the power in some way, even if not
9:10
directly, but in some way, whether it's through
9:12
fundraising, through communication support, legal work, or walking
9:15
in yourself to help one of these animals.
9:17
And we have to recognise that power.
9:19
And if we do, we won't just save
9:21
three dogs from one facility in Wisconsin.
9:23
We can save all the animals from cages
9:25
and abusive facilities across the nation and world.
9:28
All right.
9:29
Well said.
9:30
Paige in Los Angeles, your question or thought?
9:33
Hi, Wayne.
9:34
I'm curious, what is your biggest takeaway having
9:38
spent time in jail and having come out
9:41
and now with the drop of the charges?
9:43
What's your largest takeaway?
9:46
Thank you very much.
9:50
Yeah, so I did spend 38 days in
9:52
jail recently after being convicted of conspiracy to
9:55
trespass in relating to a large demonstration, peaceful
9:59
demonstration at a factory farm in Sonoma County.
10:02
It was a supplier to major grocery stores
10:05
across the nation.
10:06
And by far, I think the most important
10:09
takeaway for me was that the public and
10:12
the media are more willing to listen to
10:15
us when we put some skin in the
10:17
game ourselves.
10:19
The number of media outlets, I don't even
10:21
want to talk about all the different major
10:24
broadcast and print outlets that have reached out
10:28
to us in the months since then.
10:29
But the number of media outlets that haven't
10:30
just reached out to us but are seriously
10:32
interested in diving deeper into why we did
10:36
what we did, why I was willing to
10:37
serve 38 days in jail, and I might
10:38
have to serve more days in jail, maybe
10:40
even years in jail, just far exceeded everything
10:43
we had seen beforehand.
10:44
And the basic dynamic is one we've seen
10:47
in many social justice struggles.
10:48
We all know the name Susan B.
10:50
Anthony, Rosa Parks, these brave people who have
10:54
made enormous change in history, far beyond what
10:55
I could ever hope to achieve in my
10:57
life, certainly not on my own.
10:59
And a huge part of the reason those
11:00
stories were important was because those people were
11:03
willing to make sacrifices.
11:05
Susan B.
11:05
Anthony, when everyone told her it was illegal
11:07
to vote, she voted anyways, she got charged
11:08
for it and convicted.
11:10
Rosa Parks sat on that bus seat, even
11:12
though everyone told her it was a crime,
11:13
and they tried to throw her in jail
11:14
for it.
11:15
And for us to be treated seriously, not
11:19
just by our friends and family and the
11:20
people in our own communities, but by the
11:22
media and maybe most importantly by the political
11:24
and legal system at large, we have to
11:26
be willing to risk something ourselves.
11:28
And that doesn't mean everyone has to risk
11:29
jail time, but everyone can sacrifice in some
11:31
ways, and without any sacrifice, there's not going
11:34
to be any progress.
11:36
Wow.
11:37
A call to action.
11:39
Nilo Farr in Dallas, Texas, your question or
11:41
thought for Wayne Chung.
11:45
I subscribe to your fantastic, excellent blog, Simple
11:48
Heart.
11:49
Ergo, a major congratulations on the recent Harvard
11:53
Law Review publication regarding open rescue.
11:58
Hand in hand, the powerful government and industry
12:01
have been able to carry out normalised systematic
12:04
violence on a massive scale, especially following World
12:11
War II.
12:12
Today, prosecutors and judges compare tortured animals to
12:17
dented cans, else they call dogs things, for
12:21
example, in this torture facility for beagles.
12:26
How did you come up with the revolutionary
12:30
concept of open rescue?
12:34
And you're looking at an open rescue right
12:37
there.
12:38
This is your two compadres.
12:41
Sorry.
12:43
Yeah.
12:43
Alicia Santoro and the famed actress of Baywatch.
12:48
There you go.
12:50
Taking those two chickens and you were involved
12:53
in that defence and they were acquitted.
12:56
So, yeah.
12:56
How did you come up with this idea?
12:58
What a brilliant idea.
13:00
Well, let me just give credit where it's
13:02
deserved, because it wasn't me who came up
13:04
with this brilliant idea.
13:04
I agree.
13:05
It's brilliant.
13:06
It's an otherwise ordinary woman by the name
13:11
of Patty Mark in Australia, who was a
13:13
mother of children, had never been in trouble
13:15
with the law before in her life.
13:17
And she heard about animals being tortured in
13:19
a local factory farm in Australia and decided,
13:22
look, if the government's not going to do
13:23
anything, we got animals literally collapsing.
13:27
I mean, if I saw a bird like
13:28
this in a cage on the street, I'd
13:30
help.
13:30
And I'm not going to change things just
13:32
because there's a powerful corporation that has a
13:34
lot of money to make off of this
13:36
bird's torture.
13:37
And so she walked right in in the
13:39
middle of the night and started taking animals
13:40
out.
13:41
And that started the movement for open rescue.
13:42
But there's actually someone even more important than
13:45
Patty who needs to be credited with this
13:46
strategy, which is the animals themselves.
13:49
And I think we don't talk enough about
13:51
the agency the animals themselves demonstrate, but every
13:54
time I've been in a factory farm or
13:56
a laboratory or vivisection facility, including the one
14:00
we were charged for in Wisconsin, you can
14:03
see that the animals themselves went out.
14:06
You know, Julie, the little blind beagle puppy
14:08
we were rescuing, she was spinning in the
14:10
cage, not just for one minute.
14:11
You saw about one minute of her spinning
14:13
for two hours, two hours.
14:16
We saw her spinning constantly.
14:18
And for sure, that was a demonstration of
14:21
the psychological anguish and torture she had been
14:23
through, but also showed how desperately she wanted
14:26
and needed to get out of that cage
14:28
because she was scared.
14:30
She was alone and she had lived her
14:31
entire life in a tiny cage.
14:35
She'd never stepped outside and she wanted out.
14:37
And one of the reasons we took her
14:39
out was because she told us and she
14:41
showed with her own behaviour, I need to
14:43
get out of here.
14:44
And I've told this story before, we almost
14:46
left her behind because alarms went off throughout
14:48
the facility.
14:49
I was terrified and my team members were
14:52
terrified and we started running out and we
14:54
were going to depart the facility.
14:55
But we stopped for a moment and asked
14:57
ourselves, what did we see and what was
14:59
Julie trying to tell us when she was
15:02
spinning and clawing and howling in a desperate
15:05
attempt to get out of the cage and
15:06
what she told us and what she was
15:07
actually doing herself was, I need to get
15:09
out.
15:09
And so in many ways, I think what
15:12
we're doing is just the fulfilment of what
15:16
these animals are asking us to do and
15:18
what they are doing themselves.
15:19
And I've seen so many animals break themselves
15:21
out of cages and factory farms and slaughterhouses.
15:24
We are just trying to assist these animals
15:26
in achieving what they already were entitled to
15:30
and what they're desperately struggling for.
15:31
So Open Rescue is not just about our
15:34
agency.
15:35
It's about theirs.
15:36
Wow.
15:37
So many callers lining up.
15:39
Emick in Los Angeles, your questioner thought we're
15:41
going to move through with quick questions so
15:43
we can get to everybody.
15:44
Emick.
15:47
Hello.
15:48
Hey, hi, Wayne.
15:49
I miss you so much.
15:51
Thank you so much for just reminding us
15:53
that we are animals and not only dogs,
15:58
but every animal is our best friend.
16:00
Like when I first met a pig at
16:03
a vigil, I thought they were going to
16:05
bite me, but they gave me a kiss
16:06
in the hand before they were murdered.
16:09
What can we do?
16:10
How can we help better for these people
16:13
who live on this planet?
16:15
They build other animals.
16:17
How can we help them better?
16:18
And I really appreciate everything you do.
16:21
You're a total hero for me and a
16:23
really amazing person.
16:24
Thank you.
16:25
Thank you, Emick.
16:27
That was sort of a question and a
16:29
statement as well.
16:31
And Emick is a very, very brave activist
16:34
in her own right who was injured getting
16:37
tackled during a major football game to speak
16:41
for those who were doing Open Rescue, such
16:45
as yourself.
16:46
I want to go straight out to Michael
16:48
in Los Angeles.
16:49
Your questioner thought, Michael.
16:52
Yeah.
16:53
Thank you, Gene.
16:54
Hi, Wayne.
16:55
I know you've seen so much horrible suffering
16:58
in person.
16:59
And I can tell you just when I
17:01
watch a video, it's so traumatising for me.
17:04
So my question is, how are you able
17:05
to deal with all that you've witnessed up
17:08
close and somehow compartmentalise that you don't go
17:13
into like a deep depression?
17:14
Because that's something I struggle with on a
17:16
daily basis.
17:17
Thank you.
17:19
Yeah, I mean, honestly, sometimes I don't know
17:21
that I am handling it very well.
17:24
So I first saw animals being slaughtered when
17:28
I was about eight years old in China.
17:30
I had to watch as a dog who
17:32
looked exactly like my dog back at home
17:34
in the United States was in a cage
17:37
and dragged off to be beaten to death.
17:40
And I've had night terrors, nightmares ever since.
17:43
And there's actually some debate in my family
17:45
as to whether we actually saw that dog
17:46
be killed.
17:47
You know, I'm familiar enough with the research
17:49
and memory that sometimes you remember things that
17:52
didn't actually happen.
17:52
But my parents swear they would never have
17:54
allowed me to see that.
17:55
But we all agree we saw a dog
17:57
in a cage at a restaurant who was
17:58
going to be slaughtered for me.
18:00
And we all agree that I had nightmares
18:01
for years because I woke up screaming and
18:04
crying, I think, every day through the rest
18:06
of that trip because I just kept thinking
18:07
about this poor dog being dragged off to
18:09
be killed.
18:09
But the thing that helps me every day
18:12
more than anything else is just knowing that
18:15
we actually can save them.
18:17
And I'm lucky enough that I have living
18:20
proof of that in my own home.
18:21
I carried a dog out of a dog
18:23
meat market, a dog meat farm in China
18:26
in 2017.
18:30
And I, every morning, get to wake up
18:32
and see this little guy, Oliver, actually it
18:34
was 2016, I'm sorry, I'm getting my years
18:35
wrong.
18:36
And I get to wake up every morning
18:38
and see this little guy and remember that
18:39
miracles could happen.
18:40
There are millions of dogs killed in China
18:43
every year for meat.
18:44
Even at that one festival, which is called
18:45
the Yiling Dog Meat Festival, the estimates are
18:48
between 20,000 and 30,000 dogs are
18:50
slaughtered in a single week.
18:52
And almost none of those dogs get out.
18:55
Every single one of them has lived their
18:56
entire life in fear.
18:58
And the only experiences they'll have from the
19:02
time we see them until the time they
19:04
die are terror and physical pain.
19:06
And this dog has lived a beautiful and
19:09
happy life because we're able to save him.
19:11
And that's not just me because the only
19:13
reason we're able to get him out literally
19:14
was because we had so many people like
19:16
you, Michael, behind us.
19:17
Because I got arrested by the Chinese police.
19:20
They accused me of espionage initially and held
19:22
me in solitary confinement, interrogated me for, I
19:24
think, like 20 straight hours.
19:26
Three sets of interrogators came in and interrogated
19:28
me about what I was doing there.
19:29
But part of the reason they released me
19:31
and did not charge me with a crime
19:32
was because there was mass public support for
19:35
us.
19:35
And the U.S. government, in that case,
19:37
was behind us.
19:39
So I think by far the most important
19:41
thing, and this actually kind of answers Emek's
19:42
question before, too, is understanding that we should
19:46
not only have hope, but confidence that if
19:49
we take action to help animals, they can
19:52
be saved.
19:53
And if you understand there's some purpose behind
19:56
what you're witnessing, it's not just that we're
19:58
seeing these awful things at a vigil or
19:59
protest or even sharing something on social media.
20:01
But we're sharing these things and witnessing these
20:04
things for a purpose, to save them.
20:06
Then suddenly all that hardship and pain and
20:08
even the nightmares I have, I have nightmares
20:10
when I go to sleep and I wake
20:11
up and I see Oliver and I get
20:13
back to work.
20:13
Because I know this little guy, my best
20:17
friend in the world, he's living proof that
20:20
these changes that we know the animals need
20:23
can happen and have happened.
20:25
Let's meet Oliver and you before you found
20:29
out that all the charges were dropped.
20:30
Yeah, so the stakes are feeling very, very
20:32
high right now.
20:33
Because this guy's been with me for the
20:36
last eight years and we've done so much
20:38
together.
20:39
And today's the day I say goodbye to
20:42
him for the rest of my life.
20:44
I'm facing 16 years in prison, and even
20:46
if it's a medium term, he's eight years
20:49
old.
20:50
So another eight years, 16 years, he's not
20:52
going to make it that long.
20:53
And I don't think that's going to happen,
20:54
I think we're going to win.
20:55
But I still have to get ready for
20:56
this to be possibly the final time I
20:59
get to see my little guy.
21:02
Having him in my life, just so much
21:04
to me.
21:04
You can stop and ask yourself for a
21:06
moment, if there was someone you loved who
21:08
was in danger, what would you do?
21:11
And this guy literally was in danger, he
21:13
was two weeks from dying.
21:14
But the thing we have to remember is
21:16
that there is some nameless animal who's trapped
21:20
in a cage who is just like Oliver.
21:22
Who's just like the one you love.
21:24
And we have to remember, it's not just
21:25
Oliver or Julie, it's the thousands of other
21:27
dogs.
21:28
It's the billions of other animals trapped in
21:30
cages who need our help.
21:31
And we've got to act for them as
21:33
we act for the ones we love.
21:35
So that's what I have to do too.
21:38
We are moments away from stepping out of
21:39
here.
21:40
And again, this is going to be my
21:41
last time getting a pen on the head.
21:43
And he's feeling it too.
21:45
I've got to go.
21:46
Alright, bye little guy.
21:47
I love you so much.
21:50
Okay?
21:53
Wow, that brings tears to my eyes.
21:56
And you are not going to spend 16
21:59
years in prison for those charges because all
22:01
those felony charges were dropped.
22:03
That is the breaking news we're covering.
22:06
Honestly, we've got to go to more callers
22:08
because they're just pouring in.
22:10
Renee in Welder, Texas, your question or thought
22:12
for Wayne Chung.
22:15
Hi, Wayne.
22:17
Oh my God, my sweet friend and hero.
22:19
You demonstrate so much courage and unwavering dedication
22:24
and strategic thinking.
22:26
And I just can't tell you how proud
22:28
I am of you.
22:29
But I just want to know from your
22:32
opinion, what kind of character does it take
22:36
for activists to deliberately get arrested in order
22:39
to draw the kind of attention that's necessary
22:44
to the atrocities of animal cruelty?
22:50
Yeah, it's funny because I know a lot
22:52
of people say nice things about me.
22:54
Jane said a lot of nice things about
22:55
me.
22:55
You're a hero.
22:56
You're brave.
22:57
I don't think I'm particularly extraordinary or unusual
23:01
except in one thing.
23:03
And I think this is the character we
23:04
all not only need to cultivate that many
23:07
of us already have.
23:08
We just need to show it to the
23:09
world.
23:10
And that's just love.
23:11
And when I think about why I've done
23:13
these things over the last 15 years of
23:14
my life, it comes back.
23:18
I mean, to the animals have been important
23:19
to me because I've been through a lot
23:21
of hard experiences in my life.
23:23
And I was severely bullied to the point
23:25
that I was hospitalised as a child, racial
23:27
teasing and bullying.
23:29
And there are many times in my life
23:30
I thought everything had collapsed and fallen apart.
23:33
And time after time, the ones who brought
23:35
me back from the brink were my dogs.
23:37
And I've said this before.
23:39
I mean, the main thing I have that
23:41
maybe other people don't have or don't even
23:43
just realise they have yet is that I
23:46
really love dogs.
23:47
And I reached the conclusion, you know, roughly
23:51
15 years ago that this relationship I have
23:54
with Oliver and Natalie and Lisa and Joan
23:57
and these animals that have been so important
23:59
in my life is exactly the same relationship
24:01
I could have with any animal.
24:02
And that's come true.
24:04
You know, I've had friendships with chickens.
24:06
I mean, you might mock me for this,
24:07
but there's a little chicken named May who
24:09
I rescued from a massive factory farm in
24:11
Sonoma County who loved me as much as
24:13
any of my dogs and cats.
24:15
She followed me everywhere on the sanctuary.
24:16
And she knew that I loved her, too.
24:19
And that's why she followed me, because she
24:21
knew this man cares for me and he's
24:23
going to keep me safe even when I'm
24:25
scared.
24:26
And one of the most sacrilegious and disturbing
24:28
things about what happens in labs and factory
24:30
farms is we can have that sort of
24:32
relationship with all these animals.
24:33
I mean, people know how powerful it is
24:36
to be around someone who loves you so
24:37
unconditionally that no matter what happens, they will
24:41
be at your side.
24:42
Right.
24:42
And all of us have had an experience
24:45
with a human being or animal like that.
24:46
And that could be replicated with all these
24:48
animals, but instead we treat them with utter
24:51
contempt and abuse and denigrate this beautiful primordial
24:55
bond that we have with other sentient beings
24:57
and turn it into something corrupt and disgusting
24:59
and filled with suffering and filth and violence.
25:03
So, I guess, to answer your question, all
25:07
we have to do to build characters see
25:09
the better angels in our nature and what
25:11
makes us best is not our cruelty but
25:14
our love.
25:14
And all of us have that in us.
25:16
So, we just have to see that and
25:17
I think the world will change.
25:19
We've got one more call, beautifully said, and
25:23
then we're going to also talk to Murray
25:25
Holden, who's an amazing attorney who helps your
25:27
team.
25:28
Tom, in Chicago, your question of thought for
25:30
Wayne Shum.
25:31
Hi, Jane.
25:32
Thank you for taking my call.
25:34
Wayne, my question for you is what I'm
25:36
noticing in these trials, it's not uncommon for
25:39
a judge to have financial interests in these
25:42
slaughterhouse where you're rescuing the animals.
25:43
My question is how are they allowed to
25:46
proceed on a case when there is a
25:47
conflict of interest like this?
25:49
Thank you very much for taking my call.
25:53
Yeah, unfortunately, we live in a country where
25:55
corporations are considered persons, while many courts and
26:00
judges consider animals things.
26:02
And there's a very, very bad Supreme Court
26:05
case called Citizens United that gives corporations the
26:08
unfettered discretion to spend as much money as
26:12
they'd like on political campaigns.
26:14
And what that means, because at least at
26:17
the state court level, every judge is an
26:19
elected official, they actually have to run campaigns
26:21
and win them to keep their jobs, that
26:23
these corporations have enormous influence.
26:26
In Sonoma County, where I was convicted, the
26:28
Farm Bureau, which is the local lobbying organisation
26:31
on behalf of Big Ag, is by far,
26:34
by far, the most powerful political and electoral
26:37
campaign organisation in the entire county.
26:40
Everybody's looking for their endorsement, everybody's looking for
26:43
their money, including the judge who ruled on
26:46
my case.
26:46
And while there are some rules of judicial
26:48
ethics that require a judge to recuse themselves
26:51
for a conflict of interest, one of the
26:53
most disturbing things about our legal system is
26:56
typically the only person who can decide whether
26:59
there's a conflict of interest with a judge
27:01
is the judge themselves.
27:02
Like, they decide for themselves if there's a
27:05
conflict of interest.
27:06
And the times in which a judge decides
27:08
to recuse themselves because of a conflict of
27:11
interest are few and far between.
27:13
What that means is if we actually want
27:16
a fair criminal justice system, we have to
27:19
work outside of court.
27:20
We need people like, frankly, Jane, you know,
27:23
to publicise the fact that we have judges
27:25
who are making biassed and unfair decisions.
27:27
We have elected officials like prosecutors who are
27:30
taking money from the industry.
27:32
And if we don't have that outside-of
27:35
-the-courtroom accountability mechanism for our legal system,
27:39
our legal system is on the path to
27:41
collapse.
27:41
So all of you and the people listening
27:44
to this call, Jane, journalists, writers, people on
27:47
social media, have a crucial role in ensuring
27:51
our legal system lives up to its ideals.
27:55
Absolutely, beautifully said.
27:57
I want to go back to some of
27:59
these trials because during the Sonoma trial, there
28:03
was a gag order.
28:05
And you just made reference to the judge.
28:07
The judge in that case, it was really,
28:11
really what I would find bizarre.
28:14
I've covered many major trials.
28:16
I never saw rulings like Judge Laura Pasaglia
28:19
here.
28:20
She said that a courtroom sketch artist, forget
28:25
video camera, forget still photos, the sketch artist
28:29
was not permitted to take sketches, make sketches
28:32
of the prosecutors, the witnesses, the judges, the
28:35
court staff, the jurors, the bailiffs, the observers
28:38
in the gallery.
28:39
And you were gagged.
28:41
You were gagged from talking to the media.
28:43
That made it very hard for people to
28:46
cover that trial.
28:48
A major journalist told me they're making it
28:51
almost impossible to cover the trial.
28:55
How did that make you feel while you
28:56
had to endure that?
28:58
And it was one of the few cases
28:59
where you actually were convicted.
29:03
There was a deep sense of, I mean,
29:06
honestly, frustration doesn't even capture despair over the
29:10
fact that this courtroom proceeding was unfolding in
29:13
the shadows.
29:13
One of the reasons the founding fathers fought
29:17
for this country to be established in 1776
29:19
was because we believed in due process of
29:22
law, which includes transparency.
29:24
We all know that what happens in the
29:26
dark is often not what should be happening.
29:30
And that transparency, I mean, this is what
29:31
King wrote in his letter from a Birmingham
29:33
jail, that sunlight is the cure to all
29:35
society's ills.
29:36
And what happened in that courtroom was a
29:39
shadow cast over not just our case, but
29:42
the entire industry of animal agriculture.
29:45
And that was the thing that caused me
29:46
the most despair.
29:47
The fact that not just that I was
29:49
facing six years in prison, not just the
29:51
fact that they brought these very serious felony
29:52
charges, but all the evidence, all the testimony
29:55
that was unfolding in court was essentially being
29:58
gagged.
29:59
That is highly unconstitutional.
30:00
We had the dean of Berkeley Law School,
30:03
the ACLU, all writing to the court saying,
30:05
hey, you're not allowed to do this.
30:07
This is a violation of the first and
30:08
most important of the Bill of Rights.
30:11
And it's another demonstration of how our legal
30:13
system is fundamentally corrupted by power and money.
30:19
And oftentimes the only real check you have
30:22
on that is public scrutiny, which is why
30:25
I'm so glad that notwithstanding all the gag
30:27
orders and the lamb basting that the sketch
30:31
artist got, and I know that individual, her
30:33
name is Katya.
30:34
And she was just trying to exercise her
30:35
First Amendment right to draw and got screamed
30:38
at at court and told if she took
30:41
another sketch of anyone in the courtroom that
30:44
was not permitted by the court, she'd be
30:45
tossed out and possibly jailed.
30:47
I know that despite all those challenges, there
30:50
were a lot of people heard about that
30:51
trial.
30:52
And that's a testament to the vitality of
30:54
democracy, not because of powerful people, not because
30:57
of our government, but because of ordinary people
30:59
who fought for their rights, their right to
31:02
be heard, their right to know what's unfolding
31:04
behind closed doors.
31:05
And I'd also like to just point out
31:08
as a citizen, a taxpayer, look at the
31:11
turnout of law enforcement, like it's World War
31:14
III at one of these open rescues where
31:17
people are holding flowers and singing songs.
31:20
Meanwhile, I'm afraid to walk my dog after
31:23
1030 at night.
31:25
Okay.
31:25
Meanwhile, there are big box stores that are
31:28
being cleaned out to the point where they're
31:31
shutting down in California because there's so much
31:35
theft.
31:36
And yet, where are the cops?
31:38
Where are the cops on my block?
31:40
Where are the cops cracking down on that
31:42
and a myriad of other problems that we
31:45
have in California and across the United States.
31:48
But you try to rescue some chickens.
31:52
Oh boy, let's bring out the Marines.
31:56
You know, look at that.
31:58
That to me was so infuriating as a
32:01
taxpayer.
32:02
We got more callers.
32:04
Annie and Sherman Oaks, question for Wayne Chung
32:07
or Maree Holden, who is also here.
32:09
We don't want to neglect her.
32:12
Hi.
32:13
Thank you, Jane.
32:14
Thank you, Wayne.
32:15
Thank you, Maree.
32:16
You guys are no less than heroes, really.
32:19
Heroes don't come in capes.
32:21
Heroes come in your form.
32:23
You know, you are leading this whole movement
32:25
to the bright light.
32:27
So one of the questions I would love
32:29
to hear from both you, Wayne and Maree,
32:33
what can be done about the government's involvement
32:37
and keeping everything in the hush-hush silence,
32:41
which you kind of addressed?
32:43
What can we do as citizens?
32:45
Is there a way we could do class
32:46
action?
32:47
Because these are crimes that are being perpetrated
32:51
by the government, who is on top of
32:55
all the law.
32:56
Okay, good question.
32:57
Good question.
32:58
Let's give them a chance to answer.
32:59
Maree, I want to take that out to
33:01
you.
33:03
We have Prop 12.
33:05
We have Prop 2.
33:06
I collected signatures for Prop 2.
33:08
I collected signatures for Prop 12.
33:09
These are laws on the book that say
33:13
that animals have to be treated a certain
33:15
way and factory farms are not exempt, but
33:17
nobody will prosecute them.
33:19
There has not been, to my knowledge, any
33:20
prosecutions based on these two propositions, these animal
33:25
welfare propositions.
33:27
I think a big part of the problem
33:30
here, and Wayne talked about this a bit
33:32
as well, is that the way our law
33:34
works is not simply that there are laws
33:38
on the books, those laws are broken, and
33:40
then folks who break those laws are prosecuted.
33:43
It's much more political than that, right?
33:46
So there are laws being enforced against animal
33:51
rights activists, particularly with respect to open rescue,
33:55
that might not otherwise be enforced with the
33:58
same fervour, with the same aggressiveness by the
34:00
state, except that there are the interests of
34:03
powerful corporations that are at stake.
34:06
We see this as well with what happened
34:08
in the Shack case, with the Animal Enterprises
34:10
Terrorism Act, with what is dubbed as domestic
34:15
terrorism in this country, when really it's activism
34:18
on behalf of beings who are suffering, who
34:23
don't have a voice, and then people who
34:25
are trying to give that voice.
34:27
And so I think using the legal process
34:31
is incredibly important.
34:33
Things like class actions, like our caller mentioned,
34:36
consumer protection suits, all of those sorts of
34:40
things, I think the movement should be addressing
34:44
the issue with every possible legal avenue that
34:49
it can find.
34:50
And until we have a swell of public
34:57
support underneath, where enough people are saying, we
35:01
don't want to see animals abused, and we
35:03
demand that the political process, that the legal
35:05
process be used in a way that protects
35:08
animals and not just big corporations, I think
35:11
that we will continue to see a lot
35:13
of this stuff happen.
35:14
And that's a big part of what the
35:15
Open Rescue Movement is trying to achieve, is
35:18
to- Let me say this, I want
35:20
to jump in.
35:21
So you're saying there could be a class
35:23
action suit by citizens such as myself, I
35:27
live in California, I voted for Prop 2,
35:29
I voted for Prop 12, I collected signatures,
35:32
no prosecution, no enforcement.
35:34
I even went up to a legislator, a
35:37
state legislator at an event and I said,
35:39
you know, there's never been a prosecution involving
35:42
violations of the Prop 2 or the Prop
35:45
12.
35:46
And she said, well, she brushed me off.
35:48
Well, we don't have money for enforcement and
35:51
just sort of trotted off.
35:52
And I thought, whoa, we are screwed.
35:54
So maybe we should think about that.
35:57
Maybe we should, you know, a lot of
35:59
good ideas come out of these podcasts.
36:01
I think we should think about filing a
36:03
class action suit about that.
36:05
And I'd certainly be happy to lend my
36:07
name as somebody who does not want to
36:09
see my tax dollars personally as an individual
36:11
going to the prosecution of people who are
36:14
rescuing animals, while those who are abusing animals
36:17
inside factory farms get to violate the law
36:21
with impunity.
36:22
Let's think about that.
36:24
Okay, we are going to do one more
36:26
caller, Christina in Los Angeles.
36:29
Thank you for your patience.
36:30
If you're still there, your question or thought.
36:32
Hi there.
36:34
Yes.
36:35
Wayne, I have a question.
36:37
I just heard recently that Taiwan has banned
36:41
animal experiments.
36:42
I didn't get to read all the details
36:44
of it.
36:46
I'm wondering if Taiwan, since it's also my
36:50
original country and where your family's from, do
36:54
you think that there's any possibility of trying
36:58
to reach out and work with the government
37:00
in terms of publicising what they have done
37:05
and then also in conjunction with your situation
37:08
in your case?
37:11
Yeah, so shout out to all the Taiwanese
37:14
activists who've been working so hard.
37:16
And they definitely discredit the idea that people
37:20
in China don't support animal rights because there
37:22
are enormous movements for animal rights in Taiwan
37:26
and China.
37:27
And Taiwan, for those of you who don't
37:28
know, is just one of the leading vegan
37:30
cities in the world.
37:31
There are vegan restaurants everywhere.
37:32
It's no surprise that Taiwan and Taipei are
37:34
also the first nation in the world to
37:36
recognise same-sex marriage rights.
37:39
And they also happen to be very supportive
37:41
of animal rights, which is great.
37:43
I think the second question, what role does
37:46
government play?
37:47
And Murray was mentioning some of the problems
37:48
we've seen in government.
37:50
Zhang was talking about the possibility of bringing
37:52
a class act.
37:55
All these strategies and tactics are important.
37:56
But the most important thing for people to
37:58
understand about government law is that what the
38:02
law is is fundamentally up to us, not
38:06
up to people in robes, not up to
38:08
lawyers, not up to elected officials.
38:10
And we've seen that time and time again,
38:13
especially when a law is not being enforced.
38:17
We had a law in the books in
38:19
the 1960s called the Equal Protection Amendment.
38:23
It was not just a law.
38:24
It was part of the American Constitution.
38:26
It was the 14th Amendment that gave everyone
38:28
in this country equal protection under the laws.
38:31
And yet everywhere in the country, people of
38:33
colour like myself were denied that basic right.
38:35
And ultimately, it wasn't us just going to
38:38
the government and saying, hey, do you guys
38:39
mind giving me my rights?
38:42
People had to fight and sacrifice, in some
38:44
cases die, to achieve the upholding of that
38:48
very important legal principle.
38:50
You look at same-sex marriage.
38:52
It was not ultimately the government officials themselves
38:54
who drove progress on same-sex rights.
38:57
In the 1980s, when there was another pandemic
38:59
killing off hundreds of people in this country,
39:01
there were protests and marches and campaigns all
39:06
over the country to say that silence is
39:08
death, that this is not okay.
39:09
We are no longer going to hide in
39:11
the shadows.
39:11
We're going to be out, we're going to
39:13
be proud, and we're going to say, we
39:14
don't just have the right to be gay,
39:15
we have the right to marry.
39:16
Our love has a right to be enshrined
39:19
as a constitutional right.
39:20
And people laughed and mocked, in some cases,
39:22
beat up and even killed activists in the
39:24
1980s for fighting for gay rights.
39:26
And lo and behold, 25 years later, we
39:29
have the Supreme Court case, Obergefell v.
39:31
Hodges, that announced same-sex marriage is now
39:33
a constitutional right, as it should have been
39:35
back in the 1980s.
39:36
So fundamentally, government is always at the back
39:40
of the train.
39:41
It's not at the front of the chain.
39:42
The engine for progress is the grassroots, and
39:45
you and I and the other people in
39:47
the grassroots have to recognise our power to
39:52
be authors of the law.
39:53
Do you think we're going to have to
39:56
wait 25 years?
39:57
Because there's a slight difference.
39:59
With this movement, we're facing a climate apocalypse.
40:05
In fact, Unchained TV has a great documentary
40:07
called Countdown to Year Zero about it that
40:10
says, we've got only a few short years
40:12
to transition to a plant-based culture because
40:15
animal agriculture is such a huge contributor to
40:18
climate change.
40:19
So with this clock ticking, how can we
40:21
accelerate this movement?
40:23
What is the fastest way to get people
40:26
to wake up?
40:29
You're right, the clock's ticking.
40:30
And it's not just 25 years.
40:32
I mean, every second, if you look at
40:33
the kill counters of the number of animals
40:35
who are going through just unfathomable suffering, I
40:37
mean, every second, it's literally, I think thousands
40:39
of animals are dying and being tortured in
40:42
just ways that are hard to even imagine.
40:44
I mean, I've seen these things firsthand, and
40:46
I've had trouble imagining them.
40:49
But I think we can achieve this in
40:52
25 years.
40:52
And by it, I mean an animal Bill
40:55
of Rights, the idea that animals are persons
40:58
under the US Constitution who are entitled to
41:01
their life and their liberty.
41:01
And one of the biggest things we need
41:04
to do in the grassroots, because I'm all
41:07
about grassroots power, and I think the history
41:08
and evidence on social change shows that grassroots
41:10
power is what creates change, is we need
41:13
a large number of people in the grassroots
41:14
understanding that vision.
41:16
So often, people just are so scared to
41:19
speak out.
41:20
They're afraid even to ask for bigger cages
41:22
or better desks.
41:23
At best, maybe they ask their parents and
41:25
their friends, oh, do you mind buying the
41:26
free-range chicken?
41:28
And I think it's a great sentiment that
41:29
people want cage-free eggs and free-range
41:31
chicken.
41:31
But the thing that is going to drive
41:33
progress at an exponential scale is for us
41:36
to have a big dream and the ability
41:39
to defend that dream.
41:41
That is literally what Martin Luther King Jr.
41:43
did in 1963.
41:45
He said, I have a dream.
41:46
He didn't say, I have a small reform
41:48
that I hope you will join in.
41:49
He said, I got a dream, not just
41:51
that we end segregation, but little black kids
41:53
and little white kids and little Chinese kids
41:55
can walk together and fun town, and we
41:57
don't have to worry about who has more
41:59
power, who's allowed to be or who's not,
42:01
because we understand that we all have equal
42:03
rights.
42:04
Similarly, we have to understand the vision.
42:05
Our vision is a world that people will
42:08
get behind if we defend it.
42:09
It's a world where every single animal who's
42:11
currently being tortured is given a life that's
42:14
safe, happy, and free, and that's enshrined in
42:16
the U.S. Constitution.
42:17
And we have to defend that vision, we
42:19
have to strategise around that vision, and we
42:20
need people in the grassroots to understand the
42:22
importance of that vision.
42:23
And if we do that, then I think
42:26
most Americans and most people around the world
42:29
have compassion for animals.
42:30
They want that to happen too.
42:32
It's our job to show them that vision
42:34
is not just realistic, but it is inevitable,
42:37
because as you said, Jane, if we are
42:39
going to save life as we know it
42:41
on this earth, we need to let these
42:43
animals out of the cages, because it's not
42:45
just killing them, it's killing us too.
42:46
Oh, yeah.
42:47
I mean, we've reduced wildlife biomass, mammal biomass
42:52
of wildlife to 4% while increasing livestock
42:56
biomass, mammal biomass to 62%.
43:01
As somebody, I think it might have been
43:02
you said, most living beings are living in
43:05
cages today.
43:07
I mean, the sickness of it.
43:08
But I've got to ask you a question.
43:11
Why is it that more people don't get
43:13
it?
43:13
I mean, you have to be living under
43:15
a rock at this point to not know
43:18
that milk involves terrible cruelty, meat involves terrible
43:23
cruelty, and yet there are so many people,
43:26
the vast majority, who just are not paying
43:31
attention no matter what.
43:32
And then you try to show them the
43:33
videos.
43:35
It's see no evil, hear no evil.
43:38
And then we're going to go back to
43:40
the callers.
43:40
I think that one of the fundamental attributes
43:47
of human psychology and decision making and identity
43:51
is that we're highly social animals.
43:54
And we are willing to deny our own
43:57
eyes what we see if the society around
44:00
us tells us something different.
44:02
And there is a very famous experiment that's
44:04
been replicated many times by a psychologist named
44:07
Solomon Ash at Harvard University, where he asked
44:09
people to look at a set of lines.
44:12
And just ask them to answer the question,
44:14
which line is longer?
44:15
When it was very clear, you look at
44:16
line A, you look at line B, line
44:18
A is clearly longer.
44:19
And anyone's got eyes can see this.
44:21
And what he found is that something like
44:23
70% of people would give the wrong
44:25
answer, would reject even their own eyes when
44:29
they were planted in a group where everyone
44:31
else was given the wrong answer.
44:33
And that's, you know, it's not a good
44:36
or bad, it's just who we are.
44:38
In many ways, it's great that we're such
44:40
social animals.
44:40
And we believe so much in working with
44:43
the people around us.
44:44
But it also leads us astray.
44:47
And the Solomon Ash experiment in what's happening
44:49
to animals is an example of this.
44:50
So to me, the fundamental problem is, if
44:54
you look at the Solomon Ash experiments, this
44:55
is a solution to those experiments, too, is
44:57
if you don't get a critical mass of
44:58
people willing to be dissenters and say, look,
45:00
everyone else may be saying it's fine to
45:02
torture and kill these animals.
45:03
But honest to God, when I think about
45:05
it, I can't stomach this.
45:07
This has got to stop.
45:08
And what Solomon Ash found is if you
45:09
can get a critical mass of dissenters to
45:12
buck back, to push back against the norm,
45:14
you can basically inoculate people from that social
45:17
effect.
45:17
You can cure the problem of all these
45:19
people denying what they see with their own
45:21
eyes.
45:21
And you get to 100% accuracy.
45:23
100% of people say like, oh, wait,
45:24
if there's at least one other person backing
45:26
me up and saying line A is the
45:28
longer line, I'm willing to do it too.
45:29
And the same is true of animals.
45:30
If we had a critical mass, and the
45:33
evidence from another Harvard scholar named Erica Chenoweth
45:35
suggests we only really need 3.5%
45:37
of the population.
45:38
We can get 3.5% of the
45:40
population to come out and say, you know
45:42
what, I'm not sure I like the idea
45:44
of scalding animals alive, of confining beagle puppies
45:47
in a cage to the point they're psychotic
45:48
and spinning for hours endlessly.
45:51
If we can get 3.5% of
45:52
the population speaking out about this, then the
45:55
entire house of cards will collapse.
45:57
And so that's our task, to persuade people
45:59
we need to create enough momentum that all
46:01
the people out there who do agree with
46:04
us, but aren't willing to say it, suddenly
46:06
feel confident enough to come out right and
46:07
say, you know what, I don't like this
46:08
either.
46:09
And that's why I started Unchained TV, the
46:11
world's only plant-based animal rights streaming network,
46:15
because with 8.1 billion humans, we cannot
46:18
talk to everybody individually.
46:20
We must use mass media, and we must
46:22
use every single technology.
46:24
Streaming has overtaken broadcasting cable as the number
46:28
one way people are consuming TV, and there
46:32
it is.
46:32
There's Unchained TV on my Samsung TV behind
46:35
me.
46:36
You can also download it with an Apple
46:38
device, Apple Plus device, or an Amazon Fire
46:43
Stick, or a Roku device.
46:45
So download it and be part of the
46:47
solution, because it doesn't belong to me.
46:49
It's a community-free, community streaming network, just
46:53
like Netflix.
46:54
It's right there on any TV.
46:57
All right, Sarah's been very patient.
46:59
Sarah in Beverly Hills, your question or thought?
47:00
Hi, my question is for Wayne.
47:05
I wanted to find out, even though the
47:08
charges got dismissed, and they're planning on going
47:12
to the Beagle place, I want to find
47:15
out when is the Beagle testing place going
47:21
to shut down, and when they go there,
47:24
is that the goal to shut it down?
47:27
Because I think that's really what I want
47:30
to know.
47:32
Thank you.
47:34
And I think the answer is up to
47:36
you, and me, and everyone else.
47:39
This is a facility that has been in
47:40
violation of law for decades.
47:42
I don't think there's any dispute about that.
47:43
Even the USDA's inspectors have acknowledged this.
47:46
There are recent reports from the Wisconsin Department
47:50
of Agriculture showing this.
47:52
This is a facility that, in my view,
47:54
is just as bad or worse than the
47:58
InVigo facility that was shut down last year
48:00
by the federal government.
48:01
I think maybe it was in 2022.
48:03
In many ways, that facility, a Beagle breeding
48:05
facility in Virginia, was better than this facility
48:09
in Wisconsin.
48:10
But the government doesn't act to do anything
48:13
to help these dogs because there's a lot
48:15
of money at stake.
48:16
If you look at Dane County, the top
48:18
20 employers, I think over half of them
48:20
are involved in the biomedical industry in some
48:21
way.
48:22
And some of the biggest players are players
48:25
that are deeply involved in animal testing.
48:26
And that allows them to literally break the
48:31
law repeatedly with no accountability.
48:33
If the laws of this nation were enforced,
48:35
Ridgeland would immediately be shut down and all
48:37
the animals there would be saved.
48:40
To get there, we need more public outcry.
48:42
And so on March 18th, a lot of
48:45
us are posting, making phone calls, sending emails
48:48
with the hashtag BeagleBetrayal, just trying to highlight
48:50
this issue and put pressure on the elected
48:53
officials of our government, government we pay for.
48:55
We're the taxpayers.
48:58
These are employees of ours who work on
49:00
behalf of the people and are chosen by
49:02
the people.
49:03
We're asking everyone to join us in pressuring
49:06
the government to do the right thing, which
49:08
is helping those dogs at Ridgeland.
49:09
And if we get enough people to support
49:11
us on March 18th, I'm not saying Ridgeland
49:14
and other animal abusing facilities will have to
49:18
release their animals immediately, but I think we'll
49:20
make significant progress in freeing every single one
49:23
of those dogs from the cages in which
49:25
they've lived their entire lives.
49:26
And we also need to pass things like
49:29
the Modernisation Act, which will eliminate animal testing.
49:35
And in this incredible article, Bred to Suffer,
49:39
the writer talks about, these labs have conducted
49:45
experiments, including infecting dogs with lethal pathogens, such
49:48
as Salmonella and rabies, forcing ingestion of laundry
49:53
detergents and exposing them to drugs, and pesticides.
49:58
So another thing is, and this is from
50:01
The Intercept, don't use products that are tested
50:05
on animals.
50:05
If you don't see a leaping bunny or
50:08
an actual sign that says not tested on
50:11
animals, do not buy it.
50:14
Duty products and the people who promote them
50:17
routinely lie.
50:18
They just say, oh yeah, sometimes they assume
50:21
that it's not tested on animals.
50:23
This isn't, you know, people think, well, life
50:25
or death.
50:26
I mean, the vast majority of these experiments,
50:29
not that any experiments are valid when it
50:31
comes to animals, because 95% of the
50:34
results that work on animals don't work on
50:36
people, but it's things like detergent and pesticides
50:40
and these horrible things.
50:41
So if you don't want to see animals
50:44
tortured, don't buy the products.
50:46
That's number one.
50:48
Do not buy anything that is, doesn't clearly
50:51
say not tested on animals.
50:53
If it doesn't say that it is tested
50:54
on animals.
50:56
Wow.
50:57
There's just so much going on here.
50:59
We're in our final thoughts.
51:01
I want to apologise to Murray because this,
51:04
I did not expect this many callers, but
51:06
what, where do we go from here?
51:08
What's the next step for this movement legally
51:12
in the courts?
51:40
And so we're looking for new ways to
51:43
do that here in Wisconsin and elsewhere.
51:46
There is another right to rescue trial that
51:48
will be happening in Sonoma County at some
51:50
point.
51:51
And so I think the open rescue movement
51:54
continues.
51:55
The movement is alive and well, we will
51:56
have additional trials.
51:58
The convergence is still happening in Wisconsin, even
52:01
though there's not a trial, there will be
52:03
many actions folks can find out about that
52:06
on Direct Action Everywhere's website.
52:09
So things are happening legal and non-legal.
52:12
And I think for me, it's so important
52:15
for us in the movement to be making
52:17
these animals individuals and not just a big
52:20
mass of nameless, faceless dogs in labs and
52:26
chickens in factory farms.
52:27
And that's part of what these right to
52:28
rescue trials do is they help people look
52:31
at individual animals like Julie, who was rescued
52:34
from this facility in Wisconsin.
52:35
I've gotten to know Julie and she's absolutely
52:37
a sentient being that no one, no one
52:40
who loves dogs, no one would ever want
52:42
to hurt Julie or force feed her laundry
52:44
detergent.
52:45
But people have a harder time having that
52:48
same amount of empathy and compassion for a
52:50
larger number of animals.
52:52
And so I think a big part of
52:53
what we need to do in our legal
52:55
strategy and in our movement strategy in general
52:57
is to individualise these animals and show human
53:00
beings, this is Julie.
53:03
This is what she went through.
53:04
This is who she is and she deserves
53:06
to be free.
53:06
And every single one of the thousands of
53:09
dogs in this facility in Wisconsin is just
53:11
like her.
53:12
Wayne, we have one minute.
53:14
I wish I had one hour or two
53:15
hours, but your final thought.
53:19
I mean, I guess I'll close the way
53:20
I've closed a lot of interviews and talks,
53:24
which is, I mean, I think there are
53:25
10 words that can change the world for
53:26
animals and for us too.
53:28
And they're find your voice, find some friends
53:31
and fight like hell.
53:32
If we do those three things, the world
53:34
will change.
53:35
But like I said, it's up to us.
53:37
We can't just wait for the government.
53:38
We can't wait for prosecutors, corporate CEOs to
53:41
make this change.
53:42
We have to bring the change ourselves.
53:44
And the amazing thing is all of us
53:45
do have that power.
53:46
You've got that power.
53:48
You just got to see it in yourself.
53:49
There was a time in my life where
53:50
I didn't believe it.
53:51
And I was a very timid academic.
53:54
I'm still a very nerdy, timid person in
53:57
a lot of ways.
53:58
And I've found my confidence and my power
54:01
by walking into these places and realising you
54:03
can't get them out of hell.
54:05
And all of you need to see the
54:06
same power in your hands.
54:08
Wayne, you inspire me to carry on.
54:12
And that's why I'm going to urge everybody
54:14
right now, download Unchained TV, the world's only
54:18
vegan streaming network.
54:20
You can download it on any phone for
54:21
free and on any TV via your Amazon
54:24
Fire Stick, your Roku device, or your Apple
54:26
TV device.
54:26
And it's also on any television, like the
54:30
Samsung TV behind me.
54:32
You just go to the smart hub.
54:33
You just put in Unchained TV, one word,
54:37
and you can literally, you can text this
54:41
interview to your friends.
54:42
Okay.
54:43
So this interview is on the streaming network.
54:47
You just hit text.
54:48
Boom.
54:49
It is going on right now and you
54:51
can text it.
54:52
You can text all the animal rights documentaries.
54:54
8.1 billion people on the planet.
54:56
We've got to use technology and we've got
54:59
to use mass media.
55:00
I want to thank you both.
55:02
You are my heroes.
55:03
Wayne, you inspire me every single day.
55:06
I think, what would Wayne do?
55:08
How would he handle it?
55:11
I'm serious.
55:12
You keep me going.
55:15
Thank you so much.
55:16
And see you next time here on Unchained
55:19
TV.