Latest / WoT Spoilers / Men Dream Here - Towers of Midnight chapter 30 - EP563

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Men Dream Here - Towers of Midnight chapter 30 - EP563 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. For the
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: last recording of the year. We're going to do Veins
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: of Gold from the outside. The darkness comes in and
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: then the light comes out, and that is how we
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: are going to leave you for twenty twenty five, heading
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: into Solstice and Christmas and New Year's and seeing you
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: sometime in January. This is how we're ending. We're ending
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: on a big burst of light coming out of the darkness,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: which is I think a feeling we would all like
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: to have at this point based on our pre recording chatter.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Well, and this is the moment where Parent catches up, right,
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: I mean not obviously Brandon's has gone forward since then,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: but this is where he sort of we get to
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: exit a gathering storm because we've still kind of been
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: in a gathering.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Storm with Paren, right, yeah, totally.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: And only now does he sort of get past the
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: final moment of a gathering storm and get to be
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: in this book in the way that he should have been.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: He's in this book now halfway through, and Paren has
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: finally rejoined this book. Love that.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: This is kind of like in math when you get
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: to like algebra two and they go, what do you
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: remember from algebra one and you go nothing, and so
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: they have to like reteach you most of algebra one
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: in the first semester to get you caught up, and
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: then cover all of algebra two in the second semester.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, spout right.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's about what we're doing in this book Parent
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: and Parent.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Two, ah boy, which is why.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: There's so much paren which we're so excited about.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: I will say, I do really enjoy the nightmare training sequence.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I do actually enjoy every time that he goes into
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: a nightmare and has to deal with the nightmare. I
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: really do enjoyed those parts in this our first nightmare,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: So I am excited for that.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: This is where I think Sanderson is writing at his peak,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: because he's exploring the magic system of the world of Dreams.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Tell Ronri Odd and Yeah, it's just good running this,
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: you know. I enjoy this part. It's got both the
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: training montage, the paren gets that we've been waiting for forever,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: and the veins of Gold from the outside perspective, which
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: I think is a well done, well written chunk.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's going to be short and sweet today
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: as we roll out of this year. And yeah, we're
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: going to start with Fayel. This is chapter thirty, Men
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: dream here with the wolf symbol because that excellent line
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: men dream here is from Hopper, and like we said,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: it's the nightmare sequence, so it's definitely a wolfy symbol time.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: I think it could also be a double entendre when
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: you talk about like Rand's veins of gold and the
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: dreams of what men could be and sort of like that,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: sort of what is Rand dreaming of? Right? Men dream here?
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Oh? I like that. Yeah. Also the fact that the
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: wolves are very focused on the last hunt comes or not,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: which is very much a Rand, Like they are all
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: focused on Rand. And yeah, this man, this man who
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: is one with the land, who is the dragon, is dreaming.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: He's literally like having such an intense experience it transcends
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: into the dream space.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I like that. And this is also really where the
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: idea that this is almost the more important battle than
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: the last battle, right, Like we either fight the last
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: battle or we do not, that's the binary. And like
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: winning or not winning the last battle doesn't seem to
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: matter as much, right because like they've lost the last
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: battle before and it's been yeah, an age of darkness
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: and terror and awfulness, right, but then the wheel turns again.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Life goes on, Life goes on, right, So it doesn't
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: feel like losing the last battle, right, is necessarily the
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: end of humanity. However, if Rand, if Randon had decided
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: to end the earth, right, that's whether like the last
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: battle or nothing. They never make that statement about the
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: last battle itself.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Right, The last battle is not for existence. It's for
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: who gets to dictate what existence looks like. This is
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: the battle for do we exist at all or not?
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Because and I've said this before, but I believe once
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: Rand enters the last battle, the dark One cannot win.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: He's lost that battle every single time because there's only
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: one battle across all the ages, right, He's at the hub.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: He only ever fights one battle. That's why he can
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: be tricked. It's all the battles happening all across all times,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: all at the same time.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Right. The last battle is follow through for the real
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: world that exists around this like core central thing. These
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: are all the emergent properties that reality has to propagate
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: in order to like express what happened. But what happened
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: has already.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Happened, right, right, it's the you know and this is
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: you see this in the matrix. You see this in
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of other things where the hero has to
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: make a choice, right, and there's still a battle to
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: be fought, there's still an aney of me to be defeated.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: But that choice is really the important moment, right, Like
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: when does Neo save Trinity or not?
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Right, that's the choice he has to make, and that's
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: the moment when really everything is determined, And the same
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: thing with Randy ran on the mountaintop makes that choice,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: and that's really when the battle is won or lost. Right.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: But reality would be boring if it was compressed to
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: the point of everything happening all at once. Right, that's
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: the big bang, Right, everything's happening all at once. There's
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: nothing different.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: We live in a world where things are different, where
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: there's a fourth dimension where time matters, And so we
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: get the last battle, because how else are you going
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: to express such a cosmic choice as loving again, you know,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: but a whole lot of murder. That's how I have.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: I told you, I'm convinced that we live in a
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: seven dimensional world, not a four dimensional world. We just
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: label our dimensions wrong.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you were making this argument over episodes ago.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: I do remember this.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: And I know it's it's just a labeling thing, right
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: because you describe up and down right, that's not one dimension,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: that's two. Up as positive vertical and down is negative vertical.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: I do not have the math and the math and
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: engineering qualifications to tell you you're full of shit or not
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: right right.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: Right right? I mean, I'm sure somebody out there is
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: telling me why I'm wrong, but I'm like, wait, forward, back, left, right, up, down,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: that's six directions, and then forward in time because we
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: can't go backwards in time, so that's a seventh direction.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I'm sure quantum mechanics has something to say about that,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: but I'm not qualified or else.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: We live in a three and a half dimension world, right,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: because we got all the space time dimensions in half
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: of time because you can only go forward.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I don't know.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Tell me why I'm wrong. Please write me a message,
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: tell me why I'm.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Wrong dot com. He will read the email, I promise, yeah, yeah,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I will. All Right to come to a much less
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: suresting thing that's actually in the books. We are starting
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: the chapter with cha Fayeel reporting to Fayeel about how
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: the white Cloaks are existing, and it opens with the
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: really funny observation that apparently White Cloaks are just as
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: susceptible to boobs as any other all male unit in
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: the military. It's just you walk in there with some
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: boobs and pretty soon you have all the information that
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: you need to here. Yeah, and I think that's really
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: funny because the White Cloaks seem to be a very
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: like a monastic order. We don't care about that sort
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: of thing, but according to these women.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: And that's something that's never fully answered. What are the
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: celibacy rules of the White Cloaks. I mean, it seems
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: like they have no problem raping.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: True, there's no one getting in trouble for doing sexual
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: assault because it breaks a vow of celibacy. That doesn't
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: seem to be a thing.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: So, but we don't see a lot of family men.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: No, there's an implication that only unmarried men are in it.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: It's not like the Younglings where we actually see it
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: on the page that they only accept unattached men, but
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: it certainly is implied, right right, Yeah, And like Allat
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: never talks about like being celibate as part of like
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: he doesn't critique it as part of his being inducted
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: into the order or say that, well that was never
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: in the book, Like it just isn't addressed. But it
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: reads like a celibate monastic order. Yes, it's coded that way.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: And yet yeah, the evidence was suggest to know.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: It's because there's no families traveling with them. There's no
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: women traveling with them. They don't even have a home
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: base where their families could be situated.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: Right right, there's never any worry about them having like
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: hostages that you know are their children, right right, Yeah,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: there's never any mention of children at all.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, to be honest, the real world comparison is
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: coming to mind right now, is ice right, a bunch
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: of young, unmarried men who maybe have families at home,
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: but are hiding their identity and key just keeping them remote.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, technically we do have the elder and junior bornhled,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: but they are singular.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: True. Yeah, so he would have had to have children.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how junior bornhold comes into existences elder Bornhold
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: getting it on with someone and then deciding to raise
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: the child in such a way that he would choose
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: to follow his father into the quote unquote service.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think what I'm picturing is a bunch of
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: people who have families at home and only come home
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: every once in a while.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe you're right. It mostly recruits from younger men,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: and there's no known rule that children can't leave the order. Again,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: it's sort of vaguely implied that once you join up,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: you're there forever, but there's no actual on page evidence
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: that they can't just decide to retire and like go
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: back to you know, baking or whatever it is that
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: you know their wife's been doing in the meantime, or
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: get settled down because like, eh, and know, I have
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: arthritis and I don't want to ride around on a
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: horse terrorizing people anymore.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I want to settle down and have a family. There's
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: no rule against that as far as we know.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, the way they treat families
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: and villages, it's hard to imagine them having families, you know.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: It's like it's this catching too of like I'm guessing
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: some of them do have families, but it's a vast minority.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: These are second, third, fourth, fifth sons of nobility, probably
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: not a lot of marriage opportunity.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: It's true, who wants to get together with a violent
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: roving asshole. Not that many people.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Own people tay cops all the time.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Oh god, don't remind me so weird, it's so real.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: What have I heard? Don't cops and pilots and basically
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: people who are heroes. Also people who are remote and
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: travel a lot because opportunity breeds.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, also like soldiers and sailors.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, right, there's lots.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Of jobs where you're not around very often, but you
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: are still technically having a family. So I guess we
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: could assume that some of the White Cloaks are doing that.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Hey, some of them might have multiple families, and you know,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: it's a lot easier to maintain multiple families if you're on.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, one in every city, right right, No, that's uh,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: that's definitely a real thing, having a different family and
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: different ports of call around the Pacific Ocean, That's that's
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: the thing. So anyway, the White Cloaks don't have a
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: lot of access to women and are interested in them
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: enough that Cha Fayeel was easily able to lift some
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: information just by you know, showing a little.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: Cleavage, which is just everything we already know about the
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: White Cloaks, right, Like some of them don't necessarily like
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: everything Old is doing, but they're willing to put up
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: with it. They mostly respect them.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Fayel's doing the kind of intel gathering
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: that a Borderlander wife should.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: What is the relationship between this commander and his men?
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: What are the fracture lines and strengths that we can
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: work with there? And Oh, they're willing to follow him
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: even when he makes choices that they disagree with. That's
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: really valuable information given you know, her whole job as
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: a Borderlander wife. It never comes into play in this plot,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: but she's still doing the proactive wifely things that she
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: says she's going to be doing. It's an interesting little commentary,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: I guess about the women's relationship to feminine clothes.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: The one immediately hops back into her pants and breeches.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: The other one is lingering in her skirts and enjoying that.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if that's just fun character detail
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: to make them different, or if there's some sort of
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: weird commentary on cross dressing. I don't quite have the
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: brain power to parse it out, but I noticed that
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: the characters are at least being differentiated by their relationship
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: to the quote unquote cross dressing that Chaffayelle was doing.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Well, didn't now if I remember Lasille correctly, wasn't she
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: the one who tried to seduce Rand and got smacked down?
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: No, it's the is she the leader of Chaffayelle, because
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: it's the one who becomes the leader of chaf Fayelle
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: that Ran did that tone. I'm forgetting the name if
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: it was the seal or.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: No, she's just a member. Yeah, no, it is Solenda.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: It's Solanda. Okay, the other one of these two, not Lacille,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: but the other one.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Yeah, so that that's why Salanda changes right
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: back into breeches.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, she's got a more negative relationship to using her femininity.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: As a weapon because of the issue with Rand.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Ah, Okay, that makes some sense.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Sure, this is a reference back to that scene when
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: she has sent to seduce Rand. She is then frightened.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: She no longer wants to wear dresses because of that
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: situation and relationship.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: That seems like a very simple explanation. But also I
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: think you're right that that's what that is supposed to
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: be referencing. I'm going to put the blame for that
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: on Sanderson.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a good callback. I think it's
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: a good callback for that character to be like, what
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: is this character's history. Oh, she had this encounter with Rand.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: She's gonna want to get out of the dress asap.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Right, whereas the seal has a more neutral relationship to
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: going back and forth.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's just she's like, oh, yeah, I used to
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: wear dresses. That was nice. I'll wear them for a
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: little while longer.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I like that.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: We get danil Lewin, who we know is supposed to
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: be the fourth boy originally is in charge of the
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: two rivers men.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Which is why he gets to be TAM's replacement when
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: he mysteriously vanishes. So it's little consolation prize for being
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: the fourth point.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, mars Ben's a good point putting blame on Coliver
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: for sending her to Rand rather than Rand for scaring her.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Sure, right, because Rand is trying to get back at
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Coliver and push back on Coliver like Solanda is not
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: the problem. So yes, it is Coliver's fault for sure,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: but Rand is the mechanism by which Cliver's fault was enacted.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: So yeah, Basically, Fayelle has set up a contingency plan
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: for if the trial goes badly, that Paren can fight
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: if he wants, but not in the tent that will
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: become a death trap. And Daniel is like, i am
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: second in command to Tam, so I'm going to agree
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: with you about protecting Paren. And that's basically the point
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: of the POV is just that Fayeel is shoring stuff
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: up behind Paren, behind his back and.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Making a plan to basically haul his ass out of
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: there in case he's found guilty. Right, whether he wants
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: to or not. He's being rescued by his men.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Right because he cannot amount an effective defense if he's
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: in that tent and they try to take them in
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: to custody.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: And also, you know, Fayl also doesn't believe that he
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: would put up a defense. Also, she's thinking he might
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: just be like okay, yeah, sure, take me. And that's
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: why she's like, no matter what he says, you're going
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: to rescue him.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the Ashaman are totally on board, Like she's
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: got everyone except parent in on this plan, you know,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: m hm.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: And we get a little sort of retrospective on what
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: they did during the Bubble of Evil where they just
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: you know, blasted their weapons out of the air with
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: air and went around like basically taking care of that
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: whole quadrant by saving people.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which apparently did a lot of damage to the weapons.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: And that's part of the reason why Paren wanted a
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: delay was because like, if we are going to fight
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: the way cloaks, we need to not be down by
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: a quarter of our weaponry because the Ashaman were exploding everything.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: It's a good bubble of evil. I still feel like
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: it's just Sanderson stalling more. He's like, oh shit, I
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: had to write another little segment in here of Paren
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: witnessing the veins of Gold and I have to. He's like,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: he like stalled so much on writing it earlier that
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: it feels like you had to delay them with another
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: bubble of evil. And to do two delays with two
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: bubbles of evil, I always felt like that was a
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: little weak writing. To have them delayed by the snakes
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: and make that why they can't teleport, and now have
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: them delayed by another bubble of evil that does the
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: weapons thing, Like can you I know this tevereness involved
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: And that's just a way to say, oh, the writer
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: needs this to happen.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: But I mean, my charitable interpretation is that it says
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: that they're happening more frequently across the whole world, which
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: we do know from rumors that like these incidents are
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: increasing in frequency. But it's still kind of weak when
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: it's obviously just a delaying tactic. You know, that's just
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: me being charitable.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: But that takes us to the po V switch of paren.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so now we get to the parent that we've
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: been extra affecting for umpteen chapters, where he is switching
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: back and forth between young bull and parent as needed
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: and learning the delicate dance and balance. Like this is
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: what we were expecting the whole goddamn time. We're finally here.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: I want to play the rocky music in the background.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Da du du d d du. That was a terrible
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: rendition of it. Please cut in something that actually resembles
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: the rocky music if you could. Okay, I appreciate that,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: but yeah, that's this is the training montage, right, This
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: is the moment when he's you know, you see him
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: struggling a little bit in the beginning, and then he
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: does it again and he's a little bit better, and
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: then he finally makes it up the steps the aw
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: way and he's you know, raising his arms above his
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: head and you know this. So he starts out basically
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: doing normal training, right, and he's pretty good at that,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: but he needs to get better faster, right, right, So
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Hopper says, let's do nightmares.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, He's doing all kinds of cool, impossible, neat stuff,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: but he's struggling with things that he knows he needs
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: to be moving past. And so Hopper says, well, we
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: can go hard mode if you want. I mean, it's scary,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: but we can go hard mode and parentsys we's Gord mode.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: And you know, there's this moment where he's finding the balance.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: He's got fail as his home and his anchor, and
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: that lets him extend his power outwards while still anchoring
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: himself to Fayeel. So that's what he sort of starts
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: thinking about.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: And he's learning the mechanic of it's not how the
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: air should be, it's how the air was, right, Like,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: he's learning that mental trick which builds up to it's
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: just a weave.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: It's just a weave, right, And I like the sentence.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: It seemed that somehow the more confident he became in
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: the Wolf's dream, the more comfortable he became with himself
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: in the waking world. And I think he's got cause
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: and effect backwards, right, Like, but that's the more comfortable
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: he's becoming with his ability to find balance in the
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: real world, the better he is at controlling the wolf dream.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: There's so many logical analogies to that, Right, if you
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: get more confident in one part of your life, it
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: will probably translate to others. There's just that's and then
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: it's a feedback loop, right, because as you get more
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: confident in your very public facing life, and you get
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: more confident in the more private parts of your life,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: and like, it's a feedback loop. And it totally makes
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: sense to me that as he doesn't hold back and
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: shame himself in the one respect, he's not holding himself
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: back and shaming himself in other respects.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Right. They jump through a couple of different landscapes. I
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: couldn't find any real clues, you know, while they're in
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: a jungle and then an open plane with scrub like
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: it's just somewhere in the world.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: It's just montage time.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, montage. They run up the side of Mesa, right,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: so they're like running up a vertical cliff, ignoring the
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: direction of gravity, all that kind of stuff, like bending
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: the rules of reality to your perception rather than what
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: the world actually is.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Right, And then Hopper does the you know Jesus thing
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: where he's just sitting on top of the water, while
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: paren is like struggling with the mind game of like
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: being on the water, and Hopper is just like you
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: just be on top of the water. It's very simple.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just we're getting a sense for how
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: malleable the rules are, especially to a wolf that doesn't
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: have a formal education limiting him on what he thinks
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: should and shouldn't work.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Now, do I think that parent had a lot of
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: this figured out before Sanderson started writing these books. Yes, yes,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: he demonstrated the ability to do a lot of this stuff.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: And this relearning is a little bit of restart and
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: relearning something you already know. But I'm willing to put
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: up with it in the contextualization of he's finding balance,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: whereas before he was just kind of doing it instinct instinctively.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, winging it versus knowing what you're doing are different
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: experiences for sure. And so yeah, then we go to
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: a place where men dream here, right, we go to Camlin. Now,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: we're going to a location that actually has meaning to
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: the rest of the plot, and this is a place
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: where you will find nightmares because people have nightmares when
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: they sleep, and there's a lot of people here.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: They did check out the dome first.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know this is right, Yeah, yeah, they check
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: out the dome.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Dome still there. He's swundering why he'saw on dragging him
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: out because Popper, Because Slayer's not trying to trap wolves.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: He's trying to trap Paren and the White Cloaks right
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: right right, And he's waiting for the White Cloaks to leave.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Just just bring the trap on Paren. Yeah, yeah, no,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: And the whole thing about you know, expectations, like if
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: you're following somebody, don't rely on your expectations because they
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: can trick you.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really important to be prepared for anything if
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: you go leaping into the void.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: And we've seen nightmares before, right with a.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: GWayne, never a wild nightmare. We've seen her teachers use
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: nightmares on her, but that was entirely under their control.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I don't think she ever encountered one of these free
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: wheeling ones.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: I thought there was just like stay away from those.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: That's a nightmare situation.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: I don't recall that. Oh no, no, no, no, the
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: time with the Iside, the time with the iceid Ie
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: in the tower. So GWayne had to have learned that
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: from the Wise Ones in order to tell ninieven Elaine
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: about it. So I'm just forgetting that scene because we
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: did have the nightmare in the tower and it was
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: a known quantity when it happened.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Elaine's saying, you know the corridor, think of
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: then I can picture I can hear Kate Redding yelling,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: think of the cord.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Which means that, yeah, Elaine had to have learned that
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: from Agwain, which means that Agwayin had to have had
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: some kind of scene with the Wise Ones where we
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: got that information. And I'm just totally blanking on when
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: that happened right now.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it was just you know Book four
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: training montage.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, a little brief blip of a line that
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: normally I can remember stuff like that, but apparently today
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: is not that day.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Because you have always one saying like men or
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: evil men create dream men create evil dreams, And sometimes
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: it stays like I have that in my head of
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: a wise One telling Agwayne that.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just totally spacing. Oh sorry quick, Google never
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: apologized for being Bronacha.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Nothing's popping up easily. I'd have to do more research
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: than I want to do right now. All right. So, yeah,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: this is this whole moment where he basically thrusts himself into.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: The dream Hopper finds him a dream and says, go in.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: You will not last long your first time. I will
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: come for you. Just go in and get your ass kicked,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: but I'll wrestle you out before you get killed. And
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: he says, remember it is not. Remember it is false.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Remember it is not is definitely like the core of
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: it's just a weave.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: There is no spoon.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: There is no spoon.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Absolutely in this case, there is no evil Dragon Reborn. Yeah.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: I love the fact that he stumbles into just some
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: random dream and of course it's about Rand and he's like, wait,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: I know that guy, like it helps him prick it.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Rand is on everybody's mind, right, this is the last
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: battle the Dragon Reborn. He has affected almost every nation
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: on the country, even the sean Chan. You know, he's
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: the number one enemy to the shan Chan and they
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: control half of the continent.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: He's the bogeyman for the evil guys and the good guys.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Everyone's scared of him. Everyone's scared of him.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: He's not on anyone's team, you know, everyone's terrified.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Except Perrin, And I was gonna say Matt, but even
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: Matt's like scared of him.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but like a core group of like ten people
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: who have known him forever, everyone else on every possible
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: alignment is scared of him. And it also kind of
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: reminds me of what book three, when the Forsaken are
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: having the dreams about the sword, and like the whole
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: city is being taken up in like his you know,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: obsession dreams about Rand taking the sword. It's kind of
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: like that, but at an even bigger scale. Yeah, right,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: just like everyone's afraid of Rand, and so Rand as
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: a tevere in presence is overrepresented in their nightmares and
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: daymares and every other kind of imagination run wild kind
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: of thing.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think we did figure out that was
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Blall casting his dream that weaving thing and causing his
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: dreams to be unshielded out for everybody.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Right, But it just feels like that again. It's just
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: like when people's dreams are all focused on Rand. It
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: feels significant, which given what happens in this chapter, it's
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: extra significant. It's foreshadowing for like, no, no, no, rand is
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: going to be important even though you're focusing on a
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: training montage right now, you're gonna have to go do
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: a RAND thing in a hot.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: Sec I think it's also really good foreshadowing to how
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: the nightmare is used in the battle against Slayer in
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: the dream so well, I mean, that's how he destroys
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: the He takes the towsman into the dream, into the
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: nightmare and uses the the Dragon Mount, the lava in
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Dragon Mount the fictional.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Law of right because he goes up there and sees
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: the lava lake. It's kind of top of mind when
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: that other And oh, I hadn't even thought of that.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: But you're right, How would he know there's a lava
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: lake up there unless he'd literally seen it as he
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: does in this chapter.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: And just using nightmares to fight right? This is that
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: that's where the training, that's the dangerous situation that he
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: thrust them both into to even the odds because he's
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: trained there.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: It's not Dragon Mount in that final nightmare, it's just
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: a generic No, it's Dragon Mount. Oh, it is yeah,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: oh wow, wait till we get to that one. That's
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: a really good action sequence.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Definitely. He had the fight between Parent AND's Layer. Love that.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: That's such a good battle.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: It's such an anime battle.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: I don't care. I love it.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: It's so well done. Yeah, no, it's it's the part.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: It's the part where I'm like, oh, yeah, Sanderson writes
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: really good, really visual battles. That's why. That's the part
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: that I'm really happy that he's writing the end of
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: these books.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: About one hundred percent. Okay, So yeah, Parent is in
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: this dream and he's in the woods. He goes into
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: an alley and then it turns into the moonlit woods,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: very like Eye of the World running away from Shadow
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Logoth kind of looming. And then there's this woman who's
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: running away from a vic scary monster and he tries
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: to protect her, and then she calls the monster the
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Dragon Reborn, and it starts to break up a little bit,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: and then Hopper shows up and finishes the process that
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Paren's realization started. Right, Paren gets a tiny little patch
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: of alleyway formed around him, and then Hopper chooses at
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: that point to come in and like finish the transformation
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: and pop the bubble that is the nightmare. It's kind
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: of like a bubble of evil, but a more natural
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: mechanic than bubbles of evil.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Are right, right, these are I mean, if you think
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: of bubbles of evil as nightmare is created by the
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: dark One and the pattern as his teleronriadd right.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: The thing that contains them, your theory continues to hold weight. Yeah, no,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: they really are bubbles of evil are nightmarish. And that's
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: not an analogy.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: In a lot of ways, since the dark One is
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: the evil inside of people. Right there, there's this like yeah, yeah,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: the good parallel there.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: So Hopper is proud of Paren. You did well, foolish
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: cub right, very sweet.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Is there ever a moment where Paren is stronger than Hopper,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: because I feel like that's usually there's that moment when
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: you have the training montage where like the sense is
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: kicking your butt and like you can't grab the grasshopper
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: out of his hand or whatever, or the coin out
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: of his hand, and there's that in the beginning, they're
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: trying and failing, trying and failing, trying and failing. Is
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: there a moment where Hopper struggles with a nightmare and
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Paren comes in and dismisses it.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Not the nightmares, but Paren does continue onward up the mountain,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: past where Hopper can continue in this chapter. I think
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: that might be the closest we get. But that doesn't
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: quite feel like what you're talking about, because it's not
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: like it's a challenge that Hopper set to him, which
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: is sort of the point of what you're talking.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: About, right right, right, Well, see if.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: We find one of those.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: But I don't recall that moment happening aside from this,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: because for me.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: It's like, why doesn't Hopper just take down Slayer? Hopper
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: is such a powerful user of the dream world, it
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: feels like he alone could do it, you know, And
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: at some point you have to prove to me that
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Paren's better at this than Hopper was or else. The
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: taking down of Slayer doesn't make a lot of sense.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: And the way he just fides it is I'm a human.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: I can think about like something I'm not, whereas the
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: wolves can only think like wolves.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is I guess good enough as an explanation,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: but it feels a little lacking, like humans are just
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: better is not satisfying emotionally.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, he's a human and a wolf, so he
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: can think like both. But he does say I'm human
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: and therefore I can think like something that, whereas it
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: seems to imply that wolves can only think like wolves,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: which is not really what I feel. Yeah, it's not
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: what Jordan was writing the wolves to be like.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: And also it's not really super in keeping with what
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: we know about animal intelligence, canine and otherwise. Like that
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: feels like a very old and simple way of understanding
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: animal intelligence and sort of human centric.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Especially when you up the intelligence of wolves.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not what Jordan was writing. Jordan was writing a
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: very different kind of spirit guide type creature, not just
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: talking doggos. I mean, not that I don't love a
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: good talking dogo, like, don't get me wrong, but Jordan
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: had something else to say, I think.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: So during this whole sort of conversation, Hopper keeps turning
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: to look at Dragon.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Out right and mentioning the last hunt it comes or
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: it does not.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: And parents like you mean now, like right now, and
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Hopper's like, yeah, dude, I don't know what you're doing,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: but uh, yes, the end of the world.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: So I want to come check it out with me, Like, yeah,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: you want to come get front Row seats to the
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: end of the world or not.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: It really does feel kind of like, okay, Wolf, that's
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: a little too casual, Like, I know you're casual about reality,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: but like interrupt your training montage to be there for
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: the end of the world that all the other wolves
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: have been preparing for and gathering for for weeks now.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, Parent is a very focused person, you know,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: he's really tunnel visioned in well you know. Yeah, Hopper
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: keeps checking his phone being like, oh, the missiles have launched.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we can see whether they are going to hit
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: us or not. And Parents like, what do you mean?
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: What do you wait? What do you mean?
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: And then and then we get into the discussion about,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: you know, a choice must be made to fight the
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: last Hunt or not.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: And this is yeah, some of my favorite must be made,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: young Bull. One path leads to the last hunt, and
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: the other Hopper didn't respond immediately he turned toward drag
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: him out. The other path does not lead to the
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: last hunt. Yes, but what does it lead to to? Nothing?
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Not defeat?
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Nothing, nothing, not the dark one winning.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Not miserable, life in servitudes, not pain, not suffering.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: The end of the wheel. The only way, the only way,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: that the Dark one can.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Win literally nothing absence.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and that's why you know, and you can
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: come to this moment and it justifies everything about why
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Rand was hunted and not killed throughout the first few books, right,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: So often the Dark has the opportunity to kill him
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: and they don't because all killing him does is mean,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, you might win this cycle.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Right, Killing him just cycles the thing around.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: It's just another cycle.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: You have to get him to the point of choosing
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: absence instead of present. That's different than just killing him.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: And much harder to do. And that's why it's bring
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: him pain. Let the Lord of Chaos rule, don't kill
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: him Like those are all for the most part, you know.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's there's a point where a Shamael after
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: being killed the second time, there's in book three, he
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: wants to kill Rand, Right, there's that one moment where
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: the Dark actually wants to kill Rand. And that's why
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: we don't see Rand in that book because he's in
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: hiding because.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: He's like nope, I'm kind of nope out of that.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: But for the rest of the series, the Dark is
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: pretty much protecting Rand, especially after crossing the Streams when
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Morgan realizes they're lenked, that there's a there's a moratorium
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: on trying to kill Rand.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Right, Crafting Rand into the perfect broken savior is more
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: important than snuffing out this particular iteration of his existence.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: And then yeah, paren asks you know this choice, why
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: don't we make it? It's not our choice, which you know.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: I have my issues with the fate of the world
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: being contingent on someone else's innermost personal revelations, but that
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: is the cosmology we are working with.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, And it reminds me of never ending story when
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: the Empress needs a new name and betray you goes, well, okay,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I'll give you a new name. Let me pick you
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: a name, and she goes, It doesn't work like that.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: It has to be a human child. It has to
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: be this special person has to make that choice and again,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: And a lot of fantasy comes down to that, what's
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: the choice you make in the moment. And I like
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: that because to me, life is a series of now
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: in a lot of times in fantasy, there is one choice, right,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: and life is not one choice. Life is a series
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: of choices that you make over and over and over
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: and over again. But every time I'm confronted with that choice,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: I have an opportunity to say, what choice would I
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: make in a fantasy world? What choice would I make
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: if I'm looking at these idealized circumstances. And to me,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: that's what fantasy is all about, is putting yourself in
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: these extreme circumstances where you have to make the choice
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: between trying and despair, right, and giving yourself reasons to
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: try right. And because every day you wake up and
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: you have to go to work, you have to do
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: the dishes, you have to do laundry, you have to
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: give yourself reasons to try over and over and over again.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: And I feel like that's what I get out of
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: fantasy is these reasons to try.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't literally have the world hanging on our shoulders,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: So we have our world hanging on our choices.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and so many even the little choices you make
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: when you interact with people and how you treat them
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: and how you respond to the people in your world,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: those are choices you're making. Yeah, And that's where empathy
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: comes from. That's why people who read have empathy, because
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: they think about the consequences their choices have on others.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Right, You're like, well, if I'm in book one of
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: my story and I want something cool to happen in
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: book four, I should probably treat this apple seller nicely
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: because you know, I'm going to need them in book.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Four, no matter how much the real world doesn't work
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: that way, right, Like, in any way shape or forms does,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: some does.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Like magic is real, to quote Michael Livingstone, you know,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: like there is a magic in this world that is
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: much easier to find when you have fantasy brain and
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: you're looking at the world that way, it's a lot
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: easier to find.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Right, right, yes, Vouji. Also having other you know, just
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: just in terms of the mechanics of reading, having lots
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: of povs helps you switch from oh I'm in the
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: villain's head, I'm in the hero's head, I'm in the
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: anti hero's head, right, Yeah, I'm in the victim's head, right,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Like you can get to train yourself to be in
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: other povs as well.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a nice safe pretend space in which to
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: try out all these different roles in a given dramatic
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: situation and kind of figure out for yourself how you
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: feel about existing in those different roles. And yeah, that's
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: the optimum outcoot from reading a whole bunch of cool,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: awesome books. It seems like some people may have missed
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: the memo somewhere along the way, but a lot of
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: us have and it's great, exactly bars a pen. Oh
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: not all people think like me, what it's helpful to
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: do that in big cosmic battles instead of you know,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: the messiness that is real life. I was actually thinking
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: about this the other day. I was reading a description
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: of a book I read as a kid, describing it
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: to someone being like, Yeah, there's this book that I
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: read blah blah blah, And I went and read the
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: you know, wiki description of it, and it was such
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: an overly simplified analogy of the world. It was this
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: book about how the United States, like evangelical Christianity, had
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: been replaced by this cult of thinness and like every
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: like there was like a one to one, you know,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: kind of swapping of basic Christianity as we do it
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: in the US and like CrossFit basically, and it was
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: just very weird. It's overly simplified, you know, But they
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: were able to make a really interesting point about body
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: image culture as it exists currently by having this very
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: overly simplified other version of the United States where it's
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: like that's we would never all collectively shift that hard
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: into one thing, like the state is never going to
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: like use terrorism to make us all obsessed with our
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: body image. But like it was, it was a really
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: interesting analogous sandbox for them to just like play with
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: that because it was a very YA like super emphasis
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: on the why of the ya part that it was
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: written for. And it was just like, this is so
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: overly simple and yet so effective because it is absurdly
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: pixelated from reality.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Well, and sometimes that's where it's it's worthwhile creating a
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: fictional United States, right, so you can simplify without and
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: ignore all the complexity that is in a real world
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: country to make your point. Yeah, yeah, because you have
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: the fictional United Eights, right, Yeah, exactly, you can do
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: all the same things. But you know, it's just I
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: think fictional worlds are a great place to explore. I mean,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: I was just reading that the whole point of not
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: the outer limits, what came before the outer.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Limits, the inner limits, I don't.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Know, twilight zone, Jesus Christ, sorry, the twilight Zone. That
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: the whole point of the twilet zone is Basically the
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: person who created it wanted to create shows about civil
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: rights and he couldn't get it on the air. So
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: he said, okay, well I'll make it about aliens and
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: other planets and alternate universes and just talk about those
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: civil rights because it was you know, the nineteen sixties, right, Like,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: I'll talk about civil rights on other planets and that
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: way I can get my content on TV.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: The Twilight Zones on other planets.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Well, or you know, alternate universes whatever. You know, every
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: episode is different, right, every episode is because I.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Was thinking, like, Star Trek has the other planets to
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: talk about civil rights, franchise locked down. That's what Star
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Trek was doing.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, and a lot of sci fi does that.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: That's why sci fi exists. You know, people are like,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: oh my god, sci fi is woke. It's like, yeah,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: that's the whole point of the genre. Like, as a genre,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: it is woke. It is designed to talk about social
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: issues on other planets or other realities, so that we
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: can talk about those issues in isolation without worrying about
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: all the subtleties and the details and the nuance when
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: you're dealing with a real world country. It helps with
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: the what about.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: Isms, yeah, which you know, you really understand the deep
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: lore of the mother of sci fi and all that that. Uh,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: that tracks all the way back to the very beginning, right.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, totally. I mean even Frankenstein, right, like Frankenstein,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Saying, Like it's it was making social commentary on top
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: of you know, trying to avoid that annoying guy at
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: the party. Like there's a lot going on there.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: It's like what I see a meme recently that's like,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: you know, one level, like it's the galaxy brain thing,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, understanding that the monster was
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: not Frankenstein. The next level understanding that the monster was Frankenstein, right,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: because it's like the monster, the creature is not named Frankenstein.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: But the true villain, who is the human who has
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: done these monsterous, horrible things and is by extension a monster,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: is doctor Frankenstein. That is, the actual monster of the story,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: is the doctor who would have done such a thing.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: Frankenstein's monster is the victim.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: But the yeah, the monster is not. It's anyway, Yeah,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: sci fi has always had things to say about people
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: in power, whatever trappings, we have to put on it
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: to dress it up and make it acceptable to the
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: powers that be.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: But yeah, some great visualization in this chapter about the
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: peak and the storm and the darkness and the light,
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: and I mean, it's just it's worth reading because it
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: is very visual.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: And remember too that when we saw this from Ram's POV,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: it was entirely his internal experience, right. We were not
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: seeing the externals. We were in his head thinking his thoughts.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: This is what was going on that he was completely
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: oblivious of on a lot of different levels, Like as
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: parent comes up to this.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: Right, because this is teleronriadd So this is the reality
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: affected by the way people perceive it, right, And that's
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: I feel like, that's why it's so hard to make
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: changes in the world of dreams, because you're fighting the
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: perception of every single other person who sees it the
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: way it is in the real world. That's why it's
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: hard to change things away from the real world, because
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: you're fighting all their perceptions with your perception.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Right. Which is why it's easy to go head to
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: head with one person having a fight, is because you
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: are equally matched to the extent that your wills are
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: present in the space one hundred to one is going
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: to be a very different thing. And Rand, of course,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: being who he is, he's not even in the world
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: of dreams, right, He's so strongly having this experience that
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: the world of dreams is registering him as like a thing.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: And this is where we go back to. Rand is
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: one with the land, right, He's the worlds of dreams
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: is affected by the land, and the land is experienced
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: this torm royal mentally.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And the storm is so intense that Hopper
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: literally can't go with Paren all the way up.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Paren is doing an abnormal thing by being able to
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: punch through, and I think that has a lot to
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: do with him being teverin and connected to Rand. Like
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Hopper gives up like well before Parent gets anywhere near
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: the peak, and Paren feels compelled to witness, and the
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: pattern allows him just enough strength to be able to
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: witness this like someone has to. I don't know why
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: he's so compelled to do it, except that it has
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: to be done. Someone has to see it.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean in the same way that like marriages
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: should be witnessed, right, right.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, everyone's going to see Rand after right, But
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: Paren actually is seeing him go from Darth Rand to
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: zen Jesus Rand.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Can I just read one paragraph and see if that
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: reminds you of anything?
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, go for it.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Rand were a coat of black and red, fine and
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: ornamented with the sword at his waist. The winds didn't
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: affect I clocked that too. Those fell unnaturally still, as
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: if they were just a statue carved from stone. The
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: only thing that moved was his red hair blowing in
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: the wind.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Sounds like a murddrill to me.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: Sounds like a murderal to me. Right this whole he
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: is out of reality. He is in the deep and
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: the depth of his despair and blackness, and he is
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: taking himself out of reality. And he is not being
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: affected by the winds that are blowing his hair hair.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: So the winds are blowing.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: That's what's trippy to me is his clothes don't respond,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: but his hair does. That's odd to me. What is
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: Why does his hair get to be in the real
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: world but his clothes don't.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Well, he still got that sliver of light in his head. Right,
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: He hasn't been completely converted yet, so sort of a
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: think of the bubble closing around him and his brain
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: is the last thing that's resisting, because that's where the
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: origin of the golden light comes from.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: His hair is the antennas that his soul is still
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: poking out of.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, Also it's anime, Like how often this is absolutely
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: an anime thing? Right? The anime character just stocks still
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: with their hair just because they can animate that really
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: easily with just the moving hair.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Because that's how animation tech works.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Yeah.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: No, that's that's true.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: You cannot read these chapters without going this is deeply
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: affected by anime. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And when you ask
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: why is something happening, the answer is often anime, right.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: And I'm a person who has watched like a single
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: digit number of anime things ever in my life, and
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I could recognize that it's very obvious.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And I will say I watched a fair
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: amount in high school twenty years ago. And so the
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: anime that I reference when I talk to people who
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: are currently anime fans, they have never heard of it
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: because it's very old to them, even though to me
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: it was classic, really good anime, you know, And now
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: people are like, yeah, that's what, No, that's like old.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: We have a whole new genre that we watch. Now.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, I like what Marzapan says. His clothes are a
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: trapping of reality. His hair is part of who he is. Okay,
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: all right, I'll accept that. That's a more poetic way
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: of putting it. Then, because anime, even though both are true,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: both are true.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: But and this is the idea that he's out of
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: reality in the same way that a murderal is because
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: he's affected by the same darkness. He's touching the true power.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: He's you know, not real in certain ways because the
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: dark one has him. And then yeah, you got this.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Something black began to spin around Rand. It wasn't part
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: of the storm. It seemed like night itself leaking from him.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: So and I think this is sort of the the
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: blackness that we see on his brain. This is a
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: manifestation of that in Telerondriot.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Right, because it's taking over his whole being, which in
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: the real world means his brain, and in this world
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: of dreams, where everything is an analogy, it means his
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: visual expression, his avatar.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: The darkness continued to seep out, like a liquid tar,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: coming through Rand's pores, creating a miasma of pitch around
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: the dragon reborn within moments parent paren could barely see
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: ran through the blackness. It enclosed him, cutting him off,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: banishing him. The dragon Reborn was gone. Only evil remained.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: And then from the midst of the blackness, from the
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: center of the uproar and the tempest, a tiny sliver
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: of light split through the evil, like a candle's glow
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: on a very dark night. The light shone upward toward
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: the distant sky like a beacon. So frail Avatar, the
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: Last Airbender, Yeah, yeah, does this exact thing where he's
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: almost completely taken. He's trying to convert the fire Lord
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Uzai and he like absolutely tries to convert his soul.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: The evil takes over him all the way to just
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: a focused point in his eye. Light sprays up out
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: of it, spreads out, destroys the evil. Blackness happens in
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Neon Genesis Evangelian right with the robots. There's three the
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: three Magi. You see that exact same thing where they're
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: almost all dead. There's one little point of light left
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: and then it takes over and destroys the darkness. Anime, anime,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: anime like I keep every I can see this in
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: so many of those things where it's like this, one
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: last little bit of light spreads. You think it's about
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: to be snuffed, but it's the spark that defeats the darkness.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure there's tons of other examples that people
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: could come up with. Those are just two I add
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: off the top of my head.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very visual, very classic.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: A web of cracks appeared down the side of the
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: shell of evil blackness, light shining from within. Another fracture
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: joined it in another something strong was inside, something glowing,
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: something brilliant. The shell exploded outwards, vaporizing and releasing a
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: column of light so bright, so incredible, that it seemed
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: to sear the eyes from Parent's head. Yeah, Ran goes
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: super scient saying sorry, super Saiyan. I used to know
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: how to say that word.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: I never have. I only know how to say cyan.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: The color.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it, super cyan. I think that's how it said.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, see y an, if you're doing color stuff.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: And then and then it's the return of sunlight. Right,
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Parent gets the sunlight on his skin for the first time,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: which is this sort of indication that Rand has broken
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: through the cloud of the dark one.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Right, and he sees Rand go from like this angular
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: scary face to like mouth open with the laugh before
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: he fades and just leaves this beam of the first
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: sunlight anyone's seen in months behind, and.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Then you got the last Hunt begins. Young bull Hopper screamed,
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: we live, we live.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like it's the hunt begins, the sun is here,
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: life will go on. Whether we live or die is irrelevant.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: We will continue. I think Rand even says in the
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: chapter he thinks he hears wolves howling as he laughs,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, paren was screaming at him to
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: hold on. There's a hundred wolves all cheering this moment, like,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: yeah you heard wolves, dude. Wolves were definitely present for this.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: There was a lot going on. No, and that's just
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: a fun moment. I I do wish the editing had
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: allowed that to be in the first book. Yeah, yeah,
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: I understand why it's not. I think it does weaken
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: the whole structure of the trilogy the way this is
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: cut up, but it is what it is.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an epic moment that maybe I could have
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: been handled a little differently in terms of timing, but
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: you know, hindsight is twenty twenty.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: I feel like you cut way down on parent's storyline
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: because there was a lot of repetition and then you
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: stick it in the previous book.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but they couldn't know that until the previous book
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: had already been published and this one was three quarters written.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: That was probably when they realized that. And it's like, well,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: too late now.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: But of course then we would have said parents storyline
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: is rushed.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: So there is no winning with us.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: There is no wedding with us. We're going to be
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: critical either way.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, though I do we're done with a chapter. I
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: do want to say in terms of winning, I want
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: to give a special shout out to our listener and
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: artistic episode art creator Doctor Pants for finishing, finishing, finishing
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: all of the steps to becoming doctor pants.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: Doctor pants not just pants. Yeah.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've gone from regular pants to doctor pants. And
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: the dissertation was a while ago. We've seen pictures of
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: the bound thing, but today or yesterday from when we
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: recorded this was the actual hooting ceremony, and I just
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: want to give an extra shout out because doctor Pants
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: makes all of the art for our episodes. If you
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: follow us on Facebook or Instagram or in Patreon to
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: get the RSS feed, you will see the art that
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: this doctor has been creating for us forever and ever
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: and ever, well not forever since the legend.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: I was going to ask if you had a timeline.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been since Liligen went off to Thailand, so
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: I think was six months ago at this point. I'm
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: actually not sure about exactly when, but yeah, they were
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: sort of trading back and forth, and yeah, I really
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: appreciate all of that art getting made, and so yeah,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to give an extra shout out congratulations
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: on the pod on achieving your doctor status. Congratulations, and
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: other than that, we will see you all back here
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: in January sometime. I don't know exactly when the feed
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: will start up again because I have producer things to
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: do behind the scenes.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: But we're taking at least two weeks off for or recording,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: so expect a similar gap in episodes.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we do have some bonus content that we're going
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: to be putting in the feed to keep your pause.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: Buttered have we decided that are we officially going with
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: the other thing? Yeah, the other projects?
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean in my mind, it's that ball is
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: rolling in my mind.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: So all right, okay, all right, yeah, so yeah, I
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: guess this is a good time to say, we're dropping
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: a teaser for another project Radio and I are launching
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: in the new year. The goal is the beginning of
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: the new year, but just depending on how things get done,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: it might be a little longer than that. And again
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: we're giving you a little preview of it in this feed.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: So expect that in the next couple of weeks, and
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: we'll see you on the other feed, because I'm sure
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: you'll follow us over there. I'm sure you won't.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely will, right, no doubt about it. You're going
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: to want to hear our takes. Yeah, so I'm well,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: tune in next week for an announcement about what it.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Is exactly, and yeah, stay hydrated and calm while you
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: get through this holiday season.
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: We will see you on the other side.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Wheel of Times Spoiler's podcast.
• 53:01
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• 53:04
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• 53:08
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• 53:11
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• 53:15
  Speaker 1: at Foxendravenmedia dot com.