Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #457 Jason Flom with Robert Almodovar at the 2024 Innocence Conference

Transcript

#457 Jason Flom with Robert Almodovar at the 2024 Innocence Conference · Wrongful Conviction

0:00
Speaker 1: The following interview was recorded in person at the twenty
0:03
Speaker 1: twenty four Innocent Network conference in New Orleans. On September one,
0:11
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, a drive by shooting occurred in front
0:14
Speaker 1: of an apartment building on West Cortland Street in Chicago, Illinois.
0:19
Speaker 1: Two people were killed and one was injured. The shooting
0:22
Speaker 1: was believed to be a part of an ongoing gang
0:25
Speaker 1: feud between the Maniac Latin Disciples and the Insane Dragons. Soon,
0:31
Speaker 1: the surviving witnesses identified two alleged Insane Dragons from a
0:35
Speaker 1: photo array, seventeen year old William Nagron and nineteen year
0:40
Speaker 1: old Robert Almodovar. Despite a strong alibi defense, both young
0:46
Speaker 1: men got life without parole. But this is wrongful conviction.
1:00
Speaker 1: Wrongful conviction has always given voice to innocent people in prison,
1:03
Speaker 1: and now we're expanding that voice to you. Call us
1:07
Speaker 1: at eight three three two oh seven four six sixty
1:10
Speaker 1: six and tell us how these stories make you feel
1:13
Speaker 1: and what you've done to help the cause, even if
1:15
Speaker 1: it's something as simple as telling a friend or sharing
1:18
Speaker 1: on social media, and you might just hear yourself in
1:22
Speaker 1: a future episode. Call us eight three three two oh
1:25
Speaker 1: seven four six sixty six. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.
1:38
Speaker 1: This story is like a perfect encapsulation of so many
1:44
Speaker 1: different problems in Chicago law enforcement circles and even on
1:50
Speaker 1: a broader level of people's attitudes towards certain members of
1:54
Speaker 1: the community. And it's a really important episode for that reason.
1:58
Speaker 1: And another reason why is because one of our guests
2:01
Speaker 1: today I'm going to introduced now Jennifer Bonjin, a Bungie
2:03
Speaker 1: and law group. I'm excited to have her here today. Jennifer,
2:06
Speaker 1: thanks for being here, Thank you, and with us today
2:10
Speaker 1: is the man of the hour we're recording here at
2:12
Speaker 1: the Innocent Network conference with the guy I met which
2:16
Speaker 1: was very fortuitous and serendipitous last year at the Instance
2:19
Speaker 1: Network conference in Phoenix. Now we're New Orleans. Robert Albadova
2:22
Speaker 1: or Robert, thanks.
2:23
Speaker 2: For being here, well, thanks for having me.
2:25
Speaker 1: And thanks for last year. You were the guy who
2:27
Speaker 1: told me about Jimmy Soto and I was very right place,
2:31
Speaker 1: right time, happy to be able to be of some
2:33
Speaker 1: assistance to the team that was working to free him.
2:36
Speaker 3: And he's like a legend in prison because he's ready
2:38
Speaker 3: to give the law helped like guys get home.
2:40
Speaker 1: You and a number of the other Xogneries told me
2:42
Speaker 1: last year, and I was like, well, that's crazy that
2:44
Speaker 1: he's got everybody else home and he's still there. So
2:48
Speaker 1: fortunately he's not there anymore, and he's never going back,
2:50
Speaker 1: and he's actually going to law school. This fall to
2:52
Speaker 1: Lostwestern is going to be It's one of the greatest
2:54
Speaker 1: stories I've heard in all my years of doing We
2:56
Speaker 1: don't want to give away too much of the end
2:58
Speaker 1: of the story, but we're obviously here, which is great.
3:00
Speaker 1: But how you got here it's horrifying. You ran into
3:04
Speaker 1: one of the worst, most corrupt, most dangerous cops in
3:08
Speaker 1: the country, Chicago Police Detective Ronaldo Guivara, who has been
3:13
Speaker 1: responsible for countless wrongful convictions and incredible huge amounts of
3:17
Speaker 1: payouts to people who he wronged that the taxpayers of
3:20
Speaker 1: Chicago I've had and Illinois have had to foot those bills.
3:23
Speaker 1: But before this happened, what was your life like growing up?
3:27
Speaker 3: You know, my mom raised me and my brothers and sisters.
3:30
Speaker 3: My dad he didn't live with us. He was basically
3:34
Speaker 3: a drug user. My mom she didn't like my father
3:36
Speaker 3: period on my father's side. That's why she can move
3:38
Speaker 3: far away so my brother, my big brother, Charlie, took
3:42
Speaker 3: me from my mom's house always to my grandfather's house
3:45
Speaker 3: and once she showed me that I'd be going there
3:47
Speaker 3: all the time. My father, one of his sisters is
3:50
Speaker 3: my aunt Gladdess, and she basically kind of took me
3:54
Speaker 3: in whenever it summification came.
3:56
Speaker 2: I sticked with her. She like a mom figure. She
3:58
Speaker 2: gave me that love, that attention that I ain't get
4:00
Speaker 2: from my own mom. My mom.
4:02
Speaker 3: She tried to do her best, but my mom also
4:05
Speaker 3: was abusive. She useduld me and my brother, my sisters
4:08
Speaker 3: a lot. The station courts ball bucos. You know, my
4:11
Speaker 3: mom was rough and then also lived in our neighborhood
4:13
Speaker 3: is also rough too. We live in the home Park area.
4:16
Speaker 3: Gang infected. You got many Langton typos, you got Spanish
4:19
Speaker 3: corest instant dragons, drug didders. It's just a low income neighborhood,
4:24
Speaker 3: ampy loss everywhere. And at the time my mom was
4:26
Speaker 3: living in Lan King's neighborhood, and then when my father
4:29
Speaker 3: lived at my grandfather's house, you know folks area, its dragons.
4:34
Speaker 3: You know, also a quiet kid, laid back. You know,
4:36
Speaker 3: I never got to no trouble and then as I
4:39
Speaker 3: got older in my teens, that's when, you know, the
4:42
Speaker 3: gangs came into my life because you all still got
4:46
Speaker 3: to remember us, you guys surviving in the same neighborhood.
4:49
Speaker 1: As we've heard in other Chicago gang cases, gang affiliation
4:53
Speaker 1: is determined by where you live, not by how actively
4:56
Speaker 1: you're involved. Robert became known to the police as being
4:59
Speaker 1: a fil with the Insane Dragons.
5:02
Speaker 4: And here's an interesting piece of this. Robert had no
5:04
Speaker 4: criminal background. He had a couple little my bass yeah,
5:08
Speaker 4: but arrests, no conviction. His rap sheet looks better than mine. Okay,
5:12
Speaker 4: he was a really good kid. There was a gang
5:16
Speaker 4: officer named Mark O'shewsky who basically terrorized Robert on the streets.
5:23
Speaker 4: Robert's girlfriend lived in an area where this police officer
5:26
Speaker 4: sort of lived, kind of adjacent to Humble Park.
5:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, yuppie, says, yuppy area of the brick Yard area.
5:32
Speaker 3: She was staying over there, and my cousin also to
5:33
Speaker 3: live over there too, And I was staying there for
5:35
Speaker 3: the summertime, and that's how I met my girlfriend. And
5:38
Speaker 3: during that time I was over there, Osky always harassed
5:41
Speaker 3: me because I stand out, you know, I had to
5:42
Speaker 3: back your clothes, pushed back hat, shaggy.
5:45
Speaker 5: He's a pretty boy.
5:46
Speaker 2: You know, he said, Okay, I was.
5:51
Speaker 3: So so that time he's seen me, he pulled me
5:53
Speaker 3: over and one time he asked me, you know where
5:55
Speaker 3: you're from.
5:55
Speaker 2: I said, I'm from Home and Park.
5:57
Speaker 3: He was like, man, take your spic ass back to
5:59
Speaker 3: the home park because he's like, fuck up this area.
6:01
Speaker 3: I'm like, I looked at him, like really, And ever
6:04
Speaker 3: since then he's just keep my hangrassing me.
6:07
Speaker 1: So, you know, one of the things that stuck out
6:09
Speaker 1: when I was researching your case, I'm reading about how
6:12
Speaker 1: you were categorized as a member of the Insane Dragons gang,
6:15
Speaker 1: and then I'm looking at the alibi. Roberto worked an
6:18
Speaker 1: eleven hour shift at Farley's Chocolate Company on August thirty first,
6:22
Speaker 1: nineteen nighty four, and left work at five pm, then
6:24
Speaker 1: took a bus to Wilbur Wright College, where he attended
6:26
Speaker 1: a class until ten pm, and then took a bus home,
6:28
Speaker 1: where he remained the rest of the night. That would
6:30
Speaker 1: make you the world's most industrious and studious and responsible
6:34
Speaker 1: gang member in the history of the gang culture. Right,
6:38
Speaker 1: But there's a very logical explanation for why that is.
6:41
Speaker 2: My girlfriend got pregnant.
6:43
Speaker 3: I like, I want to be there for my daughter,
6:44
Speaker 3: and I know by being that lifestyle I won't be
6:47
Speaker 3: able to. So I left it alone. We moved in
6:49
Speaker 3: with my guys. Job that went to right cottage, right
6:52
Speaker 3: cottage base. He provided once you get GD you could
6:55
Speaker 3: pick up a trade and that's my goal.
6:57
Speaker 2: Say with that money, give my own place and be
6:59
Speaker 2: there for my daughter.
7:00
Speaker 5: It was really on the right path.
7:01
Speaker 3: And the funny thing about that, before I ever got
7:03
Speaker 3: locked up with is case.
7:05
Speaker 2: I was walking with my girlfriend.
7:06
Speaker 3: Osski drove out to me and said, man, you know,
7:09
Speaker 3: education guys haven't cast you yet, but why I do
7:12
Speaker 3: get you?
7:12
Speaker 2: You going down for a long time. And this when
7:16
Speaker 2: Loui shit happened, you know.
7:18
Speaker 1: And then shortly before one am on September one, nineteen
7:21
Speaker 1: ninety four, a car pulled up in front of a
7:23
Speaker 1: department building in the thirty nine hundred block of West
7:26
Speaker 1: Cortland in Chicago. A passenger fired several gunshots at a
7:29
Speaker 1: group of people. Amy Mrkez and Jorge Rodriguez, who were
7:33
Speaker 1: both eighteen years old, were killed. Twenty year old Jacqueline
7:36
Speaker 1: Grande was shot in the back, but she survived. And
7:40
Speaker 1: another teenager named Kenneally Saiez gove behind a parked car
7:44
Speaker 1: when the shots erupted and somehow miraculously escaped injury. And
7:47
Speaker 1: then the Chicago Police detective Ronaldo Guivara, who our listeners
7:52
Speaker 1: will recognize, gets involved and this night eron folded.
7:57
Speaker 4: You know, when I started handling these cases involved Reygavara,
8:01
Speaker 4: I first came with this idea that when you were
8:03
Speaker 4: framed by a police officer, there must be some reason,
8:06
Speaker 4: like prior history, there's some retaliation, there's something right.
8:09
Speaker 5: And what I came.
8:10
Speaker 4: To learn and Robert's case is a perfect example of it,
8:13
Speaker 4: is no sometimes he just framed people because he could,
8:17
Speaker 4: and he didn't.
8:17
Speaker 5: Care who it was.
8:18
Speaker 4: Robert had no prior involvement with Reygaevera, And I think
8:22
Speaker 4: what happened is this shooting happens September one, Area five,
8:26
Speaker 4: with Gavara being the big player there. They're not interested
8:30
Speaker 4: in getting the right person finding justice for the family
8:33
Speaker 4: of these victims. They are interested in closing a case
8:36
Speaker 4: as quickly as possible, and it doesn't matter who because
8:39
Speaker 4: all of the young Latino men in Humboldt Park are fungible, interchangeable,
8:43
Speaker 4: doesn't matter.
8:44
Speaker 1: It's a body for a body, right exactly.
8:46
Speaker 5: It did not matter.
8:46
Speaker 4: There was nothing about you know, letting the facts lead
8:49
Speaker 4: you to. You know, what detectors are supposed to do.
8:52
Speaker 4: And the way they would do it is they would
8:54
Speaker 4: work backwards. They would decide based on where the shooting
8:56
Speaker 4: took place and which gangs were at odds with each other,
8:59
Speaker 4: and then say it must be someone from this gang,
9:03
Speaker 4: and then we will narrow the pool from there. So
9:07
Speaker 4: this shooting, they came up with the idea that it
9:09
Speaker 4: was an insane dragon. There's actually never been any real
9:13
Speaker 4: good evidence that the shooting was carried out by an
9:15
Speaker 4: insane dragon, but that's.
9:16
Speaker 5: What they started with.
9:18
Speaker 4: So, because Robert's prior association was with the insane dragons,
9:22
Speaker 4: and this Olshefsky guy, you know, had it out for Robert,
9:24
Speaker 4: Olshevski was like, a I got a guy for you,
9:26
Speaker 4: and Cavarro was like cool. And here's an interesting piece
9:29
Speaker 4: of this. They didn't have any photos of him because
9:31
Speaker 4: he really had not been in much trouble. So Olshefsky
9:35
Speaker 4: He's like, I know where the kid's cousin hangs out.
9:37
Speaker 4: So they literally did a pretextual arrest of him and
9:41
Speaker 4: his cousin so that they get the polaroid of him
9:44
Speaker 4: to then go manipulate the witnesses.
9:47
Speaker 3: So he was rasking my cousin too, And so my
9:49
Speaker 3: uncle decided on what we're going to sell the house.
9:50
Speaker 2: We're going to move because his k keep my harasses.
9:53
Speaker 3: Then night she's talking about at the time, the house
9:55
Speaker 3: is empty, basically, you know, it's just college refrigerator. Oh
9:58
Speaker 3: SESTI came by the light at the house. My cousin's like, man,
10:03
Speaker 3: I went with talks to him like, man, I go
10:05
Speaker 3: out there to talk to him. Man, you walk in here,
10:07
Speaker 3: he's gonna see us. He's gonna be down some bullshit basically,
10:09
Speaker 3: And sure enough, that's what happened. And soon as she
10:11
Speaker 3: walked in, he's seeing us get on the fucking floor.
10:15
Speaker 2: I was like, wait a minute, you know, where's your
10:17
Speaker 2: warring at. You can't just do this.
10:18
Speaker 3: He's like, shut the fuck up, him in the back
10:20
Speaker 3: of your head with the pistol, let us down. He
10:22
Speaker 3: wait to the backup, came searched the house, you know,
10:25
Speaker 3: and somehow they found dulfa bag with its shotgun. Allegedly,
10:32
Speaker 3: they had us on the ground. They snatched my cousin up.
10:35
Speaker 3: They took her to the back room and you can
10:37
Speaker 3: hear him just hit him, beating up my cousin. Boom
10:39
Speaker 3: boom boom, and he come out the room, he crying.
10:42
Speaker 3: He said, do you know anything about this murder that happened?
10:45
Speaker 3: I said, I don't know nothing about no damn murder.
10:47
Speaker 3: After that, it took us to Grand Sancho. It was
10:50
Speaker 3: like four of us to put us in a room.
10:53
Speaker 3: And mind you're like, I got arrested by Shiskey so
10:56
Speaker 3: many times I be by myself.
10:58
Speaker 2: He locked me up from my bass, Like what the fuck?
11:01
Speaker 3: Just harassment, just harassment. Then, I mean so many He
11:04
Speaker 3: never took my porteror picture ever. So this time around
11:07
Speaker 3: he went to the drawer and put out that camera,
11:09
Speaker 3: the poor camera, take our pictures, and then they let
11:12
Speaker 3: you go. Right then, like a week later, I get
11:15
Speaker 3: arrested for this murder.
11:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, September eleventh, so it was ten days after the crime.
11:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
11:19
Speaker 4: Well yeah, they had to go, you know, manipulate the witnesses.
11:22
Speaker 4: And as you pointed out, the Robert had an airtight
11:25
Speaker 4: alibi for the time of the crime. Absolutely he had
11:27
Speaker 4: worked at Farley's Candies, where his aunts worked.
11:30
Speaker 5: He had to clack in and out.
11:32
Speaker 4: Then he went to his classes and even his teacher
11:36
Speaker 4: signed an affid David long Ago saying, yeah, he was
11:39
Speaker 4: in class that night. And then you know, he took
11:41
Speaker 4: the bus home. His girlfriend wasn't home with the baby,
11:44
Speaker 4: and he was kind of upset that it was so
11:47
Speaker 4: late and she wasn't home with the baby. And she
11:49
Speaker 4: got home and they have screaming match, yelling for like hours,
11:53
Speaker 4: and his aunts actually called his cousin and said, Junior,
11:58
Speaker 4: they call him Junior in the family and Sassy are fighting.
12:01
Speaker 4: Can you come try to you know, come, and they came.
12:05
Speaker 4: There were so many alibi witnesses and this is all
12:08
Speaker 4: at the exact same time that this murder was going down.
12:11
Speaker 1: Of course that didn't matter. I mean, you could have
12:13
Speaker 1: been playing center for the bulls in front of twenty
12:16
Speaker 1: thousand people. They still would have convicted you.
12:18
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, So Gavera basically took a polaroid of Robert
12:21
Speaker 4: and got Kenney Saez, who was in a gang. Obviously
12:26
Speaker 4: his best friend and his girlfriend was killed. Emotions running high.
12:30
Speaker 4: You want vengeance, and a cop says to you, this
12:32
Speaker 4: is the guy who did it. All you got to
12:34
Speaker 4: do is go in and identify him. He's like, I'll
12:36
Speaker 4: go along with that. Sure, even though now he says
12:39
Speaker 4: I never saw who did it.
12:40
Speaker 1: No, he's busy diving a car, looked trying to stay alive. Yeah, yes,
12:45
Speaker 1: that's pretty hard to see. And of course then there's
12:47
Speaker 1: the added pressure if you want to get somebody because
12:49
Speaker 1: you were there.
12:50
Speaker 4: Yeah, Kennelly, he says, gave some very powerful testimony at
12:54
Speaker 4: his evidentiary hearing. He felt so guilty. He was in
12:57
Speaker 4: a gang, he was out there, his girlfriend, she came
12:59
Speaker 4: to see him. You know, he's like, I can't possibly
13:03
Speaker 4: not do this when my girlfriend shot and killed. You know,
13:07
Speaker 4: the family is upset with me, as it is.
13:10
Speaker 1: And this is also a period in time when the
13:11
Speaker 1: Chicago PD was torturing not only suspects but also witnesses.
13:15
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Gavarro, there's a history of that people who he
13:19
Speaker 4: wanted as witnesses, who were uncooperative.
13:21
Speaker 5: They then got targeted.
13:22
Speaker 1: So you were arrested September eleventh, ten days after this
13:25
Speaker 1: horrible crime, and.
13:26
Speaker 2: Then that guy locked up. They basically asked me about
13:30
Speaker 2: the murder.
13:31
Speaker 3: I teld him I didn't do nothing, and then they
13:33
Speaker 3: basically telling listen, I guess your buddy in the room,
13:35
Speaker 3: saying that you did it. I'm like, I don't care
13:37
Speaker 3: who you got. You can have Jesus, I didn't do
13:40
Speaker 3: this shit. You got the wrong person. So they put
13:43
Speaker 3: us in the lineup. And that's why I met see Willie,
13:46
Speaker 3: my cult defendant.
13:47
Speaker 2: That's Willy. What the fuck? I don't know?
13:50
Speaker 3: I said, man, you know, did you do this? Or
13:52
Speaker 3: I ain't doing none of this. So they put us
13:54
Speaker 3: in the lineup. Of course, the witnesses point us out,
13:57
Speaker 3: and then they charged us for the murder. And now
14:00
Speaker 3: I'm handcuffed to the wall in the room by myself,
14:03
Speaker 3: just got the shitty look, tears in my eye. I think,
14:06
Speaker 3: I'm not I can't believe this is happening to me.
14:08
Speaker 3: And I never met this guy in my life, Guerrero,
14:11
Speaker 3: so I don't know why he stashed me up. And
14:13
Speaker 3: then the door opened up, olshshky stick his head in,
14:16
Speaker 3: liot at me and say gotcha, and he closed the
14:19
Speaker 3: door out of this motherfucker. And that's why I put
14:22
Speaker 3: it together.
14:24
Speaker 5: Gotcha.
14:25
Speaker 1: It's fucking sinister, isn't it.
14:26
Speaker 4: It's sinister. And when we deposed him. I asked him
14:29
Speaker 4: about that. He didn't really deny it. He said, I
14:32
Speaker 4: don't know if I said that. I may have said
14:34
Speaker 4: I told you. I'm like, well, it's pretty similar.
14:38
Speaker 2: So Shesky was how Grero got a wow.
14:41
Speaker 5: Basically, yeah, I.
14:42
Speaker 4: Mean police officers would go to Gavera to do the
14:45
Speaker 4: dirty work.
14:46
Speaker 5: It wasn't just him doing it.
14:48
Speaker 4: They were all dirty, but they would get Goavera to
14:50
Speaker 4: do the heavy lifting.
15:03
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this
15:06
Speaker 1: and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early
15:09
Speaker 1: and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus
15:12
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts.
15:20
Speaker 3: The process of going to kind of jail, they're lying
15:24
Speaker 3: up against the wall. You gotta get asshole naked right
15:27
Speaker 3: next to somebody else right next to you. Officers coming
15:30
Speaker 3: down make you bend over with spasce cheeks. You know,
15:32
Speaker 3: it's just embarrassing, you know, And then that's just that.
15:36
Speaker 3: You guys see the doctor, they call him the dick doctor.
15:39
Speaker 3: So you go in there, you take a que tip
15:41
Speaker 3: or something and pinion pee hope as shit was just
15:44
Speaker 3: like what the fuck?
15:46
Speaker 4: Nineteen years old too, so young, never had this experience.
15:50
Speaker 3: Never in my life. I wait, what one p thirty
15:52
Speaker 3: five parties soaking wet? You know, skinny kid, you know
15:55
Speaker 3: I got up front. I was you know, I was scared.
15:58
Speaker 3: You walk in there and your pack of people just
16:00
Speaker 3: looking at you, which should be about the screaming to
16:04
Speaker 3: like what the David gangs, you know they run everything
16:07
Speaker 3: basically in there. You don't find the rules, You'll be asked,
16:10
Speaker 3: will stabbed, may be killed. It was just a a
16:12
Speaker 3: whole nother world.
16:13
Speaker 2: Man. Wow.
16:14
Speaker 1: So this is September of nineteen ninety four. I'm assuming
16:18
Speaker 1: there was either no bail or an unreachable amount of bail.
16:21
Speaker 2: Right, And there's no bail. They give us no bail,
16:23
Speaker 2: no bail at all.
16:24
Speaker 1: Okay, So now now you're in there for fourteen months
16:27
Speaker 1: awaiting trial.
16:28
Speaker 2: Right, First of all, stay attorney was sticking at death.
16:30
Speaker 4: Pending on a nineteen year old with no criminal history.
16:35
Speaker 1: The death penalty, which is reserved for the worst of.
16:37
Speaker 5: The worst, the worst of the worst.
16:40
Speaker 1: It's a sure for anyone because we shouldn't have a
16:42
Speaker 1: death penalty.
16:43
Speaker 5: But that's agreed, agreed, it should be for no one.
16:46
Speaker 2: I was scared. I was scared. It wanted to kill him,
16:49
Speaker 2: murdered me.
16:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jennifer, why don't you take.
16:52
Speaker 2: Us through this?
16:52
Speaker 4: It was an incredibly weak case and hinged entirely on
16:57
Speaker 4: the testimony of two witnesses who were manipulated to some
17:03
Speaker 4: degree into making identifications. We had Jackie Grande, who actually
17:08
Speaker 4: admitted to Robert's prior lawyer that preceded his trial attorney,
17:13
Speaker 4: that she had essentially been shown who to pick out.
17:18
Speaker 5: And then Kennily Sayez.
17:20
Speaker 4: Prior to trial, admitted that Gavara had shown him a
17:24
Speaker 4: photograph and said this is who you need to choose
17:27
Speaker 4: in the lineup. He admitted it prior to trial, and
17:30
Speaker 4: then guess what happened. Shockingly, he was arrested himself and
17:35
Speaker 4: they were like, you're going to have to go back
17:37
Speaker 4: to your original story or you know, we can really
17:41
Speaker 4: fuck your life up. And so by the time he
17:43
Speaker 4: hit the stand, he was back with the lie. So
17:45
Speaker 4: we now have two witnesses who, even if they were
17:49
Speaker 4: not manipulated, wouldn't have giving reliable testimony because, as we
17:53
Speaker 4: pointed out earlier, the circumstances under which this shooting happened,
17:57
Speaker 4: the shooter is shooting from the back of a car,
18:00
Speaker 4: are in a dark street seconds people trying to avoid
18:05
Speaker 4: getting hit by bully.
18:06
Speaker 2: Yeah.
18:07
Speaker 4: I mean, under the best of circumstances, you wouldn't be
18:10
Speaker 4: able to rely on those identifications. And now you have
18:13
Speaker 4: police officers saying this is who you need to pick out,
18:16
Speaker 4: and Robert's alibi they put the alibi defense on. But
18:20
Speaker 4: the end of the day in the nineties, the police
18:22
Speaker 4: win and he went to prison, sentenced to life.
18:25
Speaker 1: November thirtieth, nineteen ninety five, you and Willie Nigron convicted
18:29
Speaker 1: the first degree murders for the deaths of Rodriguez and Murcus,
18:32
Speaker 1: and attempted murder and aggravated battery of Siaz Grande, and
18:36
Speaker 1: each sentence to life without parole. We know the cops
18:40
Speaker 1: knew that you were innocent. Do you think the prosecutors knew?
18:44
Speaker 5: I don't know how they couldn't have.
18:45
Speaker 3: You know, I was blessed to have a family that
19:02
Speaker 3: was there for me, especially my aunt Gladdness.
19:04
Speaker 2: She did everything.
19:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, she did everything for me everything. I got sentiment
19:15
Speaker 3: the ark eight hours away from the city at the time.
19:18
Speaker 3: My daughter was like think three years old. My aunt
19:22
Speaker 3: God bless herself. She paid for my lawyer fee. She
19:26
Speaker 3: set my phone calls. She sent me money, my own
19:32
Speaker 3: mob that shit. But my aunt did everything for me.
19:38
Speaker 3: At the end of the day, she ken't be going.
19:41
Speaker 5: Yeah, she got them through.
19:42
Speaker 3: My other aunts to be married to the Irish there
19:45
Speaker 3: there too. But the one that took the blovet what's
19:47
Speaker 3: my aunt gladness And that's just her husband.
19:50
Speaker 2: He's like, you know, do what you need to do.
19:53
Speaker 5: Tell people, Yeah, they mortgaged their house to buy.
19:57
Speaker 3: These are not rich people, no and sacrifice. She live
20:01
Speaker 3: in the basement of her father's house on finished basement
20:05
Speaker 3: to help pay the loan that she took out to
20:07
Speaker 3: pay for her lawyers, so they had to live in
20:08
Speaker 3: the fucking home, finished.
20:10
Speaker 4: Basement, and then would also go to protests. You know,
20:15
Speaker 4: they were out there advocating as well, like actually trying
20:19
Speaker 4: to bring attention to.
20:21
Speaker 2: The case, to the case.
20:22
Speaker 3: Then one day I'm in the yard and I met
20:25
Speaker 3: this guy Angel Rodriguez, right, yeah, Asie Rodriguez, basically from
20:29
Speaker 3: the same neighborhood that he told him by his case.
20:31
Speaker 3: He said, I got convera too, and he told him
20:33
Speaker 3: by his sister is trying to form it a committee
20:37
Speaker 3: of run COVID. The people with family members so he
20:40
Speaker 3: gave me his sister phone number against him, my aunt,
20:42
Speaker 3: and they formed this committee we demand justice from there.
20:46
Speaker 2: He just blew up.
20:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an incredible story of sort of the community,
20:50
Speaker 4: largely women, the ants, the sisters, you know, mothers, coming
20:55
Speaker 4: together having loved ones who are incarcerated, who they leave
21:00
Speaker 4: our innocent by sharing those stories amongst themselves. They're like
21:04
Speaker 4: Gavara's on your case. They did spreadsheets, they made the
21:07
Speaker 4: connection that Gavarro was framing their loved ones, and they
21:11
Speaker 4: were out there protesting, rallying, and even trying to bring
21:14
Speaker 4: it to the Chicago Police department. They even went to
21:17
Speaker 4: the FBI in the nineties and was really fucked up.
21:21
Speaker 5: Is the FBI knew it.
21:22
Speaker 4: They knew it because Gavara was doing business with Joe Mazinowski,
21:26
Speaker 4: who's a notoriously corrupt police officer, and they look the
21:30
Speaker 4: other way.
21:30
Speaker 1: It's pretty depressing, you know, We've got such a long
21:33
Speaker 1: history of doing these shows. I don't know, but I
21:36
Speaker 1: think if anyone actually did an analysis, I think you'd
21:38
Speaker 1: find more women who are heroes in these stories than
21:42
Speaker 1: anyone wouldn't have any reason to expect. It's amazing because
21:45
Speaker 1: the courage that it took. They were putting their liberty
21:48
Speaker 1: at risk as well, because these cops would stop at nothing.
21:51
Speaker 1: So we're going to dedicate this episode to them. But
21:54
Speaker 1: how did this get resolved?
21:57
Speaker 5: I'll give you the quick version.
21:58
Speaker 4: Evidence was being red field of this pattern and practice
22:01
Speaker 4: of misconduct of Reygavara. Northwestern had done some amazing work.
22:05
Speaker 4: Jane Railey started developing evidence.
22:08
Speaker 1: Another super woman.
22:09
Speaker 4: Another super really and put all this evidence together that
22:13
Speaker 4: you know, the guys started having access to right. They
22:16
Speaker 4: didn't necessarily have access for a lawyer or money for
22:19
Speaker 4: a lawyer, but they were able to put together pro
22:22
Speaker 4: say post conviction petitions, meaning they wrote them themselves.
22:27
Speaker 1: As we mentioned earlier, Robert joined forces with an incredible
22:30
Speaker 1: jail house lawyer named Jimmy Sodo.
22:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a seminari about two or three years.
22:35
Speaker 3: He's like a legend of the law. I picked his mind,
22:38
Speaker 3: he helped me out, and the basically he got me home.
22:41
Speaker 4: Jimmy Soto, did your pro say petition right, basically saying
22:44
Speaker 4: there's this pattern in practice misconduct. I was framed by
22:47
Speaker 4: this guy and he manipulated the eyewitness testimony goes into
22:51
Speaker 4: a petition of course, you know, the judge immediately dismissed it.
22:55
Speaker 5: It went up on appeal.
22:56
Speaker 4: The appellate court said no, it should go back four
23:00
Speaker 4: additional proceedings under the Post Conviction Hearing Act. And then
23:03
Speaker 4: I think Robert got my name from Jimmy Soda exactly.
23:06
Speaker 2: And that sent her letter as a copy of my opinion.
23:09
Speaker 4: The appellate court opinion. That sent it back for further proceedings.
23:12
Speaker 2: And that's when she gave me a call and.
23:14
Speaker 5: I came and visited him.
23:16
Speaker 2: And that first phone call was awesome.
23:17
Speaker 1: Though, what year is that?
23:20
Speaker 2: Thirteen?
23:20
Speaker 3: You know, you get these cous from lawyers, you'd be
23:22
Speaker 3: all professional. Her started talking to one of the guys
23:25
Speaker 3: from the street. She's cursedly laughing right like. She sounded
23:28
Speaker 3: like a truck driver.
23:28
Speaker 2: You know.
23:29
Speaker 3: I'm like, wow, cool. So my only question to her was,
23:32
Speaker 3: you know, when shit they'll go your way? Are you
23:33
Speaker 3: going to talk to your wrong She's like, fuck no,
23:36
Speaker 3: I'm gonna fight this case all the way, so you
23:37
Speaker 3: come home.
23:38
Speaker 2: I said, all right, cool, Bet, I want you to
23:39
Speaker 2: represent me in the rest.
23:41
Speaker 5: It's history, this history.
23:42
Speaker 4: So we were in front of a judge. Judge Lynn
23:45
Speaker 4: was not his original trial judge, but had presided over
23:50
Speaker 4: his post conviction proceedings and had summarily shut him down.
23:54
Speaker 5: I was not a fan. He was not a fan
23:56
Speaker 5: of me.
23:56
Speaker 1: Great place to start there.
23:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I told Robert from the stuff, I don't
24:00
Speaker 4: think we're going to fucking win.
24:01
Speaker 5: In front of this guy.
24:02
Speaker 2: I agree with her too.
24:03
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's already ruled against you. For him to admit
24:06
Speaker 4: he had gotten it wrong, he's such an egotistical maniac.
24:09
Speaker 4: He's not going to do it. So we have to
24:11
Speaker 4: prepare to win before the appellate court. So we started
24:14
Speaker 4: an evidentiary hearing that lasted two years, not straight every day,
24:18
Speaker 4: but one day of testimony the next day. I mean,
24:21
Speaker 4: it went on for quite some time. And this was
24:23
Speaker 4: in the Anita Alvarez days pre Kim Fox, so the
24:26
Speaker 4: state they weren't hearing anything about innocence. And I don't
24:31
Speaker 4: know how many times he threatened to hold me in contempt,
24:33
Speaker 4: but it was a number. I got to the point
24:35
Speaker 4: I'm like, bring it, you keep threatening it, do it.
24:39
Speaker 2: That is my family was terrified. Don't do this. I
24:42
Speaker 2: don't want to get locked up. No, she doing what
24:44
Speaker 2: she needs to do.
24:47
Speaker 4: Oh no, He would be like Ms Boungie, you are
24:50
Speaker 4: so unprofessional sometimes, and I said, and you are sexist.
24:54
Speaker 4: I would put everything on the record, and he just
24:56
Speaker 4: did not know what to do with me. He didn't
24:58
Speaker 4: really want to lock me up, but he wanted to
25:00
Speaker 4: threaten it to control me.
25:02
Speaker 1: But despite this contentious relationship and what appeared to be
25:05
Speaker 1: like an allergy to evidence of actual innocence, outside of
25:09
Speaker 1: these proceedings, not only had Kim Fox been elected as
25:12
Speaker 1: Cook County State's Attorney, but also an independent investigation into
25:17
Speaker 1: Quevara was underway in which they chose four of his
25:20
Speaker 1: cases as examples, and one of them was Roberts.
25:24
Speaker 4: So we have the city of Chicago hiring a private
25:27
Speaker 4: law firm, Siddley and Austin, a big fancy law firm,
25:30
Speaker 4: to do this investigation that concludes that Robert's more likely
25:34
Speaker 4: than not innocent. We even brought it before the judge,
25:37
Speaker 4: is part of our post conviction evidence. Didn't move the
25:40
Speaker 4: needle at all. So we continued to fight, and Kim
25:43
Speaker 4: Fox then came into office. So we're going into closing
25:46
Speaker 4: arguments for our post conviction proceeedings. And I remember that
25:50
Speaker 4: weekend just having such a pit in my stomach that
25:53
Speaker 4: I just knew that this judge was going to fuck us,
25:56
Speaker 4: And I said, you know what, I'm going to pack
25:58
Speaker 4: that courtroom. We are going to have a big pro
26:00
Speaker 4: test that day. We are going to bring attention because
26:02
Speaker 4: if he's gonna fuck us, I want everybody to see it.
26:05
Speaker 5: I want the.
26:06
Speaker 4: Newspapers there to see it. And Monday we show up,
26:08
Speaker 4: big protest outside. We go to the courtroom. The courtroom
26:12
Speaker 4: is filled. I argued the hell out of this case.
26:15
Speaker 4: And at one point the state's attorney turned around to
26:20
Speaker 4: the audience the gallery and she's like, do you think
26:23
Speaker 4: I would be up here if I believed Ray Gavarro
26:27
Speaker 4: was a bad cop?
26:28
Speaker 5: And you could hear everybody going uh huh.
26:31
Speaker 1: Yes.
26:32
Speaker 4: There was like this collective silently though it wasn't like disruptive,
26:36
Speaker 4: but it was just this incredible energy, and the judge
26:39
Speaker 4: was so angry about it. I was convinced he was
26:42
Speaker 4: going to still fuck us. He isn't going to make
26:44
Speaker 4: his ruling that day. We go in the back and
26:47
Speaker 4: Celeste says to me, that's the state's attorney. She goes,
26:50
Speaker 4: will he take time served? We can reduce it? Wants
26:54
Speaker 4: to now cut a deal and I went back to him.
26:58
Speaker 2: I'm like, fuck, no.
27:00
Speaker 4: No, And then I immediately leaked it to BuzzFeed that
27:04
Speaker 4: they had made that offer, because you know, it's despicable.
27:09
Speaker 4: And then the state ultimately reached out. Kim Fox called
27:13
Speaker 4: me directly. She said, you know, I'm new to the office,
27:16
Speaker 4: I'm getting up to speed, and you know, we didn't
27:19
Speaker 4: really realize what was going on. They ultimately did the
27:22
Speaker 4: right thing to agree to post conviction relief and dismiss
27:24
Speaker 4: his case. And I got to hand it to them
27:27
Speaker 4: because the first assistant, Eric Susman, called the judge up.
27:31
Speaker 4: He told the judge, we might want to get counsel
27:33
Speaker 4: on the phone for mister Elmodovar. I just want to
27:35
Speaker 4: let you know some developments in our office, Judge, and
27:38
Speaker 4: he's like, no, we don't need we don't need her
27:39
Speaker 4: to tell me what's going on now. That's completely ex
27:41
Speaker 4: party in inappropriate. You cannot be having one sided conversations,
27:45
Speaker 4: absolute judicial misconduct. And Susman says, we want to agree
27:49
Speaker 4: to relief and vacate the convictions, and the judge goes,
27:53
Speaker 4: why are you going to do that.
27:54
Speaker 5: I'm going to rule your way.
27:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, ex party, and to their credit, they said, thank you.
28:00
Speaker 1: Let's talk about a rig system, right, that's gross.
28:04
Speaker 4: After Eric Susman gave this deposition that the judge demanded
28:08
Speaker 4: the next party conversation and basically said I'm going to
28:11
Speaker 4: rule your way. I got that deposition and I walked
28:14
Speaker 4: into Judge Lynn's courtroom like two years later.
28:17
Speaker 5: I sat in the front row.
28:18
Speaker 4: And he hates to see me in there. He's like,
28:20
Speaker 4: ms Bongi, and you have something in here? I said, well, Judge,
28:23
Speaker 4: actually I was hoping to get a minute of your
28:25
Speaker 4: time in chambers. And he's like, do I need approver?
28:28
Speaker 4: I said, yeah, bring one. Approver is like a witness
28:31
Speaker 4: to the conversation. And I said I'll bring my own.
28:35
Speaker 4: So we went back there and I said, here's the transcript.
28:38
Speaker 4: I think it's absolutely despicable. Basically what you did, Jennifer.
28:43
Speaker 4: That's not how I remember going down exactly. I don't
28:45
Speaker 4: remember it going down that way. Oh well, A former
28:48
Speaker 4: US attorney and an assistant States Attorney under Oath said
28:51
Speaker 4: something different, but you should have this.
28:53
Speaker 1: You held him in contempt.
28:55
Speaker 5: I did. I held him in contempt.
28:58
Speaker 1: So finally, when did you actually walk out.
29:03
Speaker 3: After the closing argument? Thursday, I get a call and
29:06
Speaker 3: I got some good news. You coming home, Like when
29:09
Speaker 3: like tomorrow you coming home from I was like, get them.
29:12
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, no, you already coming home tomorrow. And
29:15
Speaker 3: for so real, you know, you think about this day,
29:18
Speaker 3: you dream about it. And she actually telling me why
29:20
Speaker 3: I want to hear. So I'm just ecstatic. I'm happy.
29:24
Speaker 3: I'm a clown. Nine.
29:25
Speaker 2: As I'm walking out.
29:27
Speaker 3: I see my friend of mine that we were locked
29:29
Speaker 3: up together him and are He does a barber I
29:31
Speaker 3: tell him I'm coming home. I beat my case, no fuck,
29:34
Speaker 3: and we hugged right there in the hallway. He's crying.
29:37
Speaker 3: I'm crying. I was like, man, hey, can't get a haircut.
29:41
Speaker 3: He's like, man, walk in the barbershop. And while my
29:43
Speaker 3: guy gave him a haircut, he telling everybody about my case.
29:46
Speaker 3: So everybody walking us and me touched me trying to
29:48
Speaker 3: get that luck, good luck off of them.
29:49
Speaker 2: And when they fighting, just dropped the case and everything.
29:54
Speaker 2: It was mad.
29:55
Speaker 3: He wasn't happy about it because he wanted to not
29:57
Speaker 3: my ass, but unfortunately he didn't even get what he wants,
29:59
Speaker 3: so fuck him and were walking until you get processed.
30:02
Speaker 3: And this is the part that kind of felt so
30:04
Speaker 3: real to me. They took me to the room. Ain't
30:07
Speaker 3: got my clothes. I took the clothes off. I pay
30:09
Speaker 3: on street clothes, and one of the officers she looked
30:12
Speaker 3: at me and said, man, you look good.
30:15
Speaker 2: I'm gonna walk you by the lady lock up. They're
30:17
Speaker 2: gonna love you. So she did that. All the ladies
30:19
Speaker 2: are screaming, hey, Poppy, what's up going on?
30:22
Speaker 3: But anyway, and I'm sending down the way to get
30:25
Speaker 3: my fringing prints and my picture taken. I was sitting down.
30:28
Speaker 3: I see a bus coming in Gay's on the noon,
30:30
Speaker 3: coming into the county getting processed in. I don't look
30:33
Speaker 3: at that. I just thinking about that when I first
30:35
Speaker 3: came in. That was me twenty three years ago. And
30:38
Speaker 3: after they took my picture of my fringing prince. So
30:41
Speaker 3: as I walk up, I see everybody. I see my
30:44
Speaker 3: baby girl right there, my daughter, Jasmine, and she's just
30:47
Speaker 3: jumping my arm, gave me a big hug, and I'm like,
30:50
Speaker 3: he's dreaming about this type of shit all my life.
30:52
Speaker 3: When I got lot Us, she was six months old.
30:55
Speaker 3: I come out, she's a young lady, twenty three years old,
30:57
Speaker 3: you know, And it was so emotional. One of the
31:00
Speaker 3: bit beside her being born, is like one of the
31:02
Speaker 3: best ever in my life. And then run into that crowd,
31:05
Speaker 3: seeing my father, my aunt hugging my ass saying that
31:08
Speaker 3: we finally did it. You know, we fucking did it.
31:11
Speaker 3: We're here and seeing Jennifer. It was just it was amazing.
31:15
Speaker 3: Buzzfree was there.
31:16
Speaker 5: Yeah, they recorded the whole thing, the whole live stream, did.
31:19
Speaker 2: I It was just it was a good Friday too.
31:22
Speaker 2: I will never forget it.
31:23
Speaker 1: Wow. Well, that's a great place to wrap this up.
31:26
Speaker 1: But we always have one special feature of the show
31:30
Speaker 1: called Closing Arguments where I think both of you again,
31:34
Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna turn my microphone off, kick back
31:37
Speaker 1: in my chair and listen to anything else you think
31:40
Speaker 1: we may have left out. Why don't you go first,
31:42
Speaker 1: Jennifer and what do you got?
31:44
Speaker 4: There's so many stories associated with Robert's case. You know,
31:47
Speaker 4: I've been representing him a very long time. I've known
31:50
Speaker 4: his family a long time, and I remember, you know,
31:54
Speaker 4: the first time I went to visit him at Minard
31:56
Speaker 4: and they always say, you know, you're doing the time
31:59
Speaker 4: or the time to do it, you you know, And
32:00
Speaker 4: I think some people have this fortitude to survive these conditions,
32:05
Speaker 4: and I frankly don't know that I would ever have it.
32:08
Speaker 4: And I've seen people who have it and people who don't,
32:10
Speaker 4: and it's heartbreaking obviously for people that prison is doing them.
32:15
Speaker 4: But Robert, you know, he came in for the visit,
32:18
Speaker 4: giant smile on his face. I was like, this guy,
32:23
Speaker 4: you would think he was coming in from like the
32:25
Speaker 4: country club or something like. He's so positive and he
32:27
Speaker 4: has a natural life sentence and there are no guarantees
32:30
Speaker 4: that I'm going to be able to get him home.
32:32
Speaker 4: This system has not worked for him. Just this incredible optimism.
32:37
Speaker 4: It just blew me away. And even when I had
32:40
Speaker 4: to deliver you know, some bad news or you know,
32:42
Speaker 4: we things were stacked against us not looking good, never
32:46
Speaker 4: ever lost his optimism, his again fortitude. I don't know
32:51
Speaker 4: how else to describe it. And it's like no other
32:54
Speaker 4: person I really ever met. And then to come out
32:57
Speaker 4: and just be doing great work. He works as a
33:00
Speaker 4: clerk for US in Chicago, and that means all types
33:03
Speaker 4: of things. He runs a lot of errands, but he
33:06
Speaker 4: also does important work of getting recent axonneries back on
33:11
Speaker 4: their feet, helps them navigate a system they're not familiar with.
33:14
Speaker 4: He even watched my daughter's dog in Chicago who bid him?
33:18
Speaker 4: So you know, he puts up with a lot. But
33:20
Speaker 4: he's a writer.
33:21
Speaker 5: Die.
33:21
Speaker 4: We are forever bonded as friends apart from you know,
33:25
Speaker 4: this incredible relationship as attorney client, but you know, I
33:29
Speaker 4: consider him one of my best friends.
33:31
Speaker 2: Wow, thank you.
33:32
Speaker 3: I mean, I love this woman to the you know,
33:35
Speaker 3: I told I do anything for her, and she's amazing.
33:37
Speaker 3: She walked the walk at the end of the day,
33:38
Speaker 3: you know, and she's real, she's one hundred. There's no
33:41
Speaker 3: fucking around with her. She just told you like it is.
33:44
Speaker 3: And that's what I love about her, you know. Besides her,
33:46
Speaker 3: and know Javii Solo, you know, big influence in my life.
33:49
Speaker 3: Another friend of mine named top Dog. He also kind
33:51
Speaker 3: of helped me on two of my posts, you know.
33:53
Speaker 3: And also Melissa Sagora she's a reporter for Buzzfree News
33:57
Speaker 3: and she wrote the story about my story also all
34:00
Speaker 3: the covers.
34:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a curt Well. I think like two years
34:03
Speaker 2: to write that story.
34:04
Speaker 4: I think she did a lot of good investigative journalists
34:07
Speaker 4: amazing work.
34:08
Speaker 2: I love her too. She did a great job and
34:10
Speaker 2: bought the light to Mike Kate.
34:18
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
34:21
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one
34:23
Speaker 1: week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on
34:26
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team Connor
34:29
Speaker 1: Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow executive
34:32
Speaker 1: producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn. The music
34:36
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated
34:39
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all
34:42
Speaker 1: social media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.
34:46
Speaker 1: You can also follow me on Instagram at It's Jason Flamm.
34:49
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
34:52
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one