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Persistence: The Silent Force of Transformation · Is Your Way In Your Way?

0:25
Cassandra: Good day out there to all my listeners and I'd like to welcome you back to Is your Way In your Way, and, yes, I'm your host, cassandra Crawley-Mayo, and I have a question for you.
0:40
Cassandra: Have you ever felt like you're doing all the right things reading your Bible, setting goals, starting new habits but you still feel like transformation is just sort of out of your reach?
0:53
Cassandra: You know, it's kind of like the name of the podcast Is your way in your way.
0:57
Cassandra: There's certain things you want to accomplish, but you just can't seem to do it.
1:02
Cassandra: Well, what if I told you that the key isn't in doing more, but in doing it consistently over time, and I have a special guest that's going to talk about that, but also so my new listeners out there, we are talking about topics related to personal improvement, personal development, and some is business improvement and business development as well, and our topic today is titled the transformational power of persistence over time.
1:40
Cassandra: And I am going to take a deep dive into this persistent power over time with my incredible, incredible guest by the name of Michelle Nazat, and I meant to ask Michelle to pronounce her last name for me, and I forgot to do that.
2:02
Michelle: No, you did great.
2:04
Michelle: So here in the town that I live in it's NAZAT.
2:08
Michelle: But when my grandfather or my husband's father went to the Navy they were like, no, that's, you know too French sounding, we're going to say NEZAT.
2:16
Michelle: So I say NEZAT, like where are your knees at.
2:19
Michelle: But it's funny because in town they would call me NAZAT.
2:22
Michelle: So you actually did it right, okay good, Excellent, Excellent.
2:26
Cassandra: So this is what I want to do for my listeners, Michelle.
2:29
Cassandra: I just want to read a little bit about who you are so they will understand what, why you are qualified to talk about what we're going to talk about Now.
2:51
Cassandra: Michelle is a Christian fiction author and Bible teacher who has spent over a decade helping people engage with scripture in a meaningful way.
2:54
Cassandra: Through her podcast More Than a Song.
2:55
Cassandra: She's inspired thousands, thousands, to go beyond just reading the Bible to truly living it.
3:05
Cassandra: She is going to talk about what I call sharing powerful insights on how small, consistent steps in faith can lead to radical transformation, whether in your spiritual life, your personal growth or even your creative calling.
3:29
Cassandra: So if you've ever struggled with sticking to something, a commitment, a wonder if your persistence will ever pay off.
3:32
Cassandra: This conversation is going to encourage and equip you.
3:37
Cassandra: So sit back.
3:39
Cassandra: If you're driving, please keep your eyes on the road.
3:42
Cassandra: If you're just sitting down listening, you know, get a cup of tea and settle in and let's get started on this awesome conversation.
3:50
Cassandra: Thanks for having me.
3:51
Cassandra: Yeah, Michelle, tell us, tell the audience about your backstory.
3:57
Michelle: Yeah.
3:58
Michelle: So just what led me here today is I most recently wrote a fiction novel and I had been podcasting for quite some time, and I got some advice hey, you know, get on other people's podcasts, talk about your book, talk about your journey.
4:16
Michelle: And I actually had this limiting belief that I couldn't go on other people's podcasts because I was a solo podcaster.
4:22
Michelle: And so I said, oh well, since I don't, I can't, I don't really have a format that allows them to come on my podcast, I don't really have a format that allows them to come on my podcast.
4:32
Michelle: I shouldn't be asking to be on theirs, which is really silly, because you have a podcast of interviewing people and you want to get to know people and hear their stories and that's how your audience learns, and so that's kind of what got me on this journey.
4:44
Michelle: But what qualifies me to even be here, I guess, is because I have been podcasting since 2014.
4:49
Michelle: But what qualifies me to even be here, I guess, is because I have been podcasting since 2014.
4:53
Michelle: When I started podcasting, there were less than 150,000 podcasts in existence, and in the Christian marketplace, there were less than 18,000 podcasts, and the majority of those were pastors.
5:06
Michelle: So, like it would be.
5:07
Michelle: They would basically publish the sermon, the audios of the sermon, and call that a podcast.
5:12
Michelle: And so, um, I, yeah, so I uh started on the journey of podcasting because I had a bunch of new believers in my midst and one of the very first things that, um, people do when they come to Christ is they change the music that they're listening to.
5:28
Michelle: And I was listening to Christian music on the day and I said, oh man, I wish my friend Stacy knew that that song that I was just listening to came that the lyrics come from the book of James.
5:38
Michelle: Wouldn't it be neat if she could study the book of James, hear the song, and it would remind her about what she studied.
5:44
Michelle: I was also.
5:45
Michelle: I wanted to, you know, really help my kids engage in scripture and things like that.
5:49
Michelle: So I wanted to, you know, really help my kids engage in scripture and things like that, and seeing that the power of music to do that.
5:53
Michelle: So when I went to a marketing conference, I kind of put two and two together and one of the speakers was like don't do a blog, everyone's blogging, of course.
6:02
Michelle: Now, 2025, we could say don't do a podcast, everybody's podcasting on the ground floor, you know, and so but and it was just such a unique uh connection.
6:12
Michelle: So basically, my podcast uses Christian music that plays on the radio and uh in is as a launching point to dive into scripture.
6:21
Michelle: And then we kind of leave the song behind and we dive into scripture and I help people engage uh with the Bible with through I call them Bible interaction tool exercises, bites, just really practical ways, and so that's kind of what led me to and I'm continuing to podcast.
6:40
Michelle: I was weekly since 2014 and I went biweekly when I started writing my book a couple of years ago and still going strong years ago and still going strong.
6:48
Cassandra: Well, michelle, what so when you were growing up, tell us a little bit about that.
7:02
Cassandra: Why?
7:02
Cassandra: Why the Bible?
7:02
Cassandra: Why the scripture?
7:02
Cassandra: Why something in your background or something inspired you to focus on the word of God.
7:07
Cassandra: What was that?
7:15
Michelle: focus on the word of God.
7:16
Michelle: What was that?
7:17
Michelle: I credit my grandparents because we lived with them.
7:18
Michelle: When I tell I was about, I guess, three or four, but I was still very close to them and so I would.
7:23
Michelle: As I was learning to read in school, I would go climb into bed with them and they would read with me from the Bible.
7:30
Michelle: And my grandfather was especially a very curious Bible reader.
7:38
Michelle: He just found it so fascinating and he was always so engaging and I remember one time he was like okay, you go read the book of Acts, and I'm going to read the book of Acts, and then we're going to come together and we're going to talk about what the early church looked like, and then we're going to talk about how it compares and contrasts with the way that churches run today.
7:52
Michelle: And so I mean just those kinds of conversations were happening.
7:56
Michelle: Additionally, I grew up in a church where I, through Bible quiz, we would memorize whole books of the Bible in the King James version and then quiz on it.
8:08
Michelle: And so I will tell you that I wish I was more admirable in my goals around scripture in that season of my life, but all I really wanted to do was beat Brian Schneider, but it didn't matter because I was hiding God's word in my heart.
8:21
Michelle: So I was memorizing and we were quizzing, and so I just remember thinking, when I grew into an adult I had just this wealth of scripture knowledge because of those things, because of reading with my grandparents and Bible quiz and some of the experiences that other people just didn't have.
8:39
Michelle: But I just I wanted to be able to transfer that to others, recognizing that they didn't have Papa, you know, quizzing them on the book of Acts and they didn't have Bible quiz.
8:49
Michelle: And so what?
8:50
Michelle: What could I do to kind of transfer that knowledge and also recognize that it was just consistent interaction with God's word over time that led to just a greater understanding of what it says where it says it, that kind of thing.
9:29
Cassandra: So are you saying your dreams and aspirations?
9:34
Cassandra: And growing up you knew it had to do with the word of God or something in that genre.
9:44
Michelle: Yeah, so I did go to Bible college my first year of schooling, thinking I was going to be a foreign missionary and I ended up transferring.
9:56
Michelle: Interestingly enough, my grandfather got sick and he by this time I grew up in Idaho, but by this time they were in Louisiana.
10:02
Michelle: That's where my heritage, my family is from and so I moved to Louisiana and I changed my major, went to a public university, changed my major to marketing and business, and so, interestingly enough, it was like my marketing and my business and things like that that I wanted to do professionally.
10:25
Michelle: But so, like in my new novel, the main protagonist is a marketer.
10:32
Michelle: Right, you know, you write what you know.
10:33
Michelle: And I'm.
10:34
Michelle: My daughter asked me you know, are you ever sad that you don't do foreign missions?
10:38
Michelle: And I asked her.
10:38
Michelle: I said, well, define what you think foreign missions is, because I have listeners from all over the world that listen to my podcast.
10:46
Michelle: And then I've written me from Korea and New Zealand and Germany, and I mean just every in Nebraska, I mean you know just all over the world that that that listen.
10:56
Michelle: And so I it's interesting that question I just always had a love for the word and I always wanted other people to enjoy it too, and I I know the transformative power of it.
11:13
Michelle: So if I can get you to um read it, and if I can do it in a way that you feel confident and that it is an enjoyable process, then I know that the Lord is going to do the rest.
11:25
Michelle: The Holy spirit is going to meet you in it.
11:26
Michelle: You're going to um.
11:27
Michelle: It's all about him.
11:29
Michelle: You're going to get to know this God for who he says he is, and that is transformative.
11:35
Michelle: Um, he is transformative and he uses his word to do it.
11:40
Cassandra: Right now, you.
11:41
Cassandra: Now this is.
11:41
Cassandra: You didn't say this because I, I know you, you know we don't usually brag on ourselves, but is it true that you've done over 500 podcasts?
11:54
Cassandra: Yeah, yeah.
11:57
Michelle: So what happens is when you say to yourself and to your listeners I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this every week.
12:04
Michelle: I'm sure you know this right, because there's a commitment, but there's something that happens.
12:09
Michelle: So it was a desire of my heart to do this.
12:11
Michelle: I felt like I had a good model, a good template of what I was going to do.
12:15
Michelle: Pick a song, go study scripture.
12:17
Cassandra: Boom.
12:18
Michelle: Let's do this every week, um, and I just told my listeners that I was going to do it every week, and so I wanted to stay true to my word, and so I just week in and week out I would do it, and so I did, along the way, get challenged.
12:36
Michelle: A friend of mine said you know, you can take a break.
12:38
Michelle: There is such a thing as a sabbatical.
12:40
Michelle: So there are.
12:41
Michelle: Maybe there was a two or three month period where I did replace, but by then I had several hundred podcast episodes so.
12:50
Michelle: I mean, you know it even if you had listened to it, it was.
12:54
Michelle: It's okay you can hear it again, and so there's a few replays.
12:57
Michelle: But yes, I'm on 512 this week, yeah.
13:02
Cassandra: Wow, that your way.
13:04
Cassandra: Now, it took you a while to write your book.
13:07
Cassandra: Yeah, what was that experience like?
13:20
Cassandra: Because, like you said, you had some maybe limiting beliefs.
13:26
Cassandra: What in the Bible or the scripture motivated or inspired you to say, okay, I'm going to do this book?
13:38
Cassandra: What was it about in the word of God that helped you with that?
13:43
Michelle: So what's interesting is that originally I was going to write a nonfiction book because I and I really wanted to start with the authority of scripture.
13:53
Michelle: So that is a doctrine that says that God inspired the words that are on the page, that it says.
14:01
Michelle: It says if he wrote it, he wrote it through humans, but it's his words, um, that it's without error, that it's sufficient and that it's eternal.
14:10
Michelle: And these are just some of the aspects of the authority of scripture.
14:13
Michelle: And so I started reading books on the authority of scripture to kind of, but they were all top shelf, like you know, seminary style, kind of very academic over the head conversations.
14:26
Michelle: And then I picked up a few that would, you know, summarize those things into a paragraph.
14:32
Michelle: And I was like, well, that's kind of bottom shelf, you know, that's just really simplifying this big concept into something.
14:38
Michelle: How can I show this?
14:40
Michelle: And so I was thinking, well, I read a lot of business books and some of them that I thought were most interesting were half and half.
14:48
Michelle: So it would like tell a story, almost like a parable, and then the second half would point back to the story but teach at the nonfiction.
14:55
Michelle: So I was like that's what I'm going to do.
14:56
Michelle: I'm going to write a half and half.
14:59
Cassandra: And.
14:59
Michelle: I had an agent look at me and say you got to pick a lane, there's no bookshelf in the library or the bookstore.
15:07
Michelle: That's for half and halves.
15:08
Michelle: And I was like, well, okay.
15:12
Michelle: Another thing I knew about the half and halves and I was like, well, okay.
15:17
Michelle: Another thing I knew about the half and halves that I had read were the story themselves were a little bit lacking, you know, because they were so focused on trying to teach this nonfiction idea, the story kind of fell flat and it was really more of a prop.
15:29
Michelle: And I didn't.
15:29
Michelle: I didn't want a prop, I wanted something that was, you know, worth reading, and so I wrote what I thought, you know, was a good start 76,000 words.
15:41
Michelle: And then I sought out a developmental editor and I interviewed a couple of different ones which, by the way, if you're going to write a book, this is an expense you do not have to go with the very first person you talk to.
15:53
Michelle: I actually talked to three different editors over time.
15:56
Michelle: I could have done more.
15:57
Michelle: The two that I ended up really interviewing would have both been fantastic.
16:02
Michelle: They were both aligned with what I was trying to accomplish, but I'm really, really happy with my editor.
16:09
Michelle: He ended up becoming my book coach first because he asked me some key questions and he didn't even read the 76,000 words.
16:18
Cassandra: I'm a little hurt still about it, but he was just like he just asked a few questions and.
16:23
Michelle: I gave him my answers and he's like, yeah, it sounds like you have about 14,000 words worth of story there.
16:28
Michelle: And I was like, oh, okay.
16:31
Michelle: And so he's like, let's, let's go back and kind of go back to the drawing board.
16:36
Michelle: And I had the characters, I had the overall, I knew exactly where I wanted to go, remember this big idea of the authority of scripture.
16:43
Michelle: And in the story I wanted to say if we believe that God's word is inspired by God, why don't we read it?
16:52
Michelle: That's, you know, like you're saying, I want to hear from God.
16:56
Michelle: And he's like yeah, and I'm talking and you're not, you're not listening, and so, um, anyway, I uh we went back to the drawing board and he helped me develop an outline and then I rewrote from there.
17:09
Michelle: So I would say that part of that process was a lot faster.
17:14
Michelle: So it was two years from slogging through trying to learn how to write a fiction story, because, you have to understand, I'm a nonfiction teacher.
17:22
Michelle: I didn't know anything and all the classes I took, all the podcasts I listened to, everything was on theology or nonfiction.
17:29
Michelle: You know, it wasn't about how to write a fiction story.
17:32
Michelle: So I read a lot of craft books and I, you know, it wasn't about how to write a fiction story, right.
17:35
Michelle: So I read a lot of craft books and I, you know, listened to, watched a lot of videos, and so that's kind of, I would say there was a little bit of teaching, learning and writing all going on at the same time.
17:43
Michelle: When I finally got this outline.
17:44
Michelle: Interestingly enough, the the commitment that it took for me to keep podcasting and week out.
17:53
Michelle: It's that same vein of commitment that you have to to get up and commit to writing.
17:59
Michelle: And so, um, he challenged me to write 5,000 words a week, which, in my uh, the way my week was set up, I was like, okay, a thousand words a day for five days, because I really wanted you know weekends with my, my family and stuff like that.
18:14
Michelle: And so I said okay, and he would check in.
18:18
Michelle: You know, like every four weeks.
18:20
Michelle: I mean, I could email him, but I, I wanted to.
18:24
Michelle: You know, in those four weeks, say, I wrote 20,000 words.
18:28
Michelle: You know what I'm saying.
18:28
Michelle: Like I wanted, I, I, so accountability was huge.
18:32
Michelle: But that commitment to myself and to to what, what I knew was my goal and to what I knew that the Lord was calling me to, so, week in and week out, day in and day out, got up and wrote a thousand words and so, um, the final book is over a hundred thousand words.
18:49
Michelle: So you can kind of do the math.
18:51
Michelle: But that's kind of how long it took me to write that part Once.
18:55
Michelle: I was, um, once I had a good kind of outline of where I was going, so that I told a really good story, so that when you pick it up, you're, you get engaged with the characters and you want to read all the way to the end.
19:06
Michelle: Um so that I earned the right to talk to you about what I really wanted to talk to you about, which is, if you believe that God's word is his word, why don't you read it and, hopefully, inspire you along the way, to do just that?
19:21
Cassandra: Wow, wow, that's brilliant, that's brilliant.
19:27
Cassandra: So that's why I say, you know, the title is Transformational Power of Persistence Over Time and I want to talk about, you know, as the name of the podcast is, is your Way, in your Way.
19:43
Cassandra: A lot of it has to do with the limiting beliefs, overcoming limiting beliefs, and your story conveys persistence and determination.
19:56
Cassandra: So what role does scripture play in breaking those personal barriers?
20:05
Michelle: Yeah, it becomes the standard of truth.
20:08
Michelle: So one of the things that I recognize in the world today is that there's a lot of voices.
20:16
Michelle: My kids are big fans of Broadway.
20:20
Michelle: One of my favorite Broadway musicals is my Fair Lady, and there's this scene where Professor Higgins is talking about how he will never let a woman in his life and he goes running around the room and he has all these.
20:33
Michelle: He's a language person and so he has all these gramophones with recordings of people and he turns them on and he speeds them up and it sounds like chipmunks and chaos and just, you know, just like noise voices, and I feel like that's what's happening in the world today.
20:48
Michelle: And I feel like that's what's happening in the world today.
20:53
Michelle: So my daughter has a young mother, a friend who's a young mother, and she um has a parenting problem.
21:02
Michelle: So she goes on a blog and she reads a blog and she says that's, that's a good solution to this, to this problem.
21:05
Michelle: And then she hops on Instagram and somebody says something very different, which is also different than the, than what her friend tried, which is also different than what her mom did.
21:15
Michelle: And the thing is is that she's not trying to pick out an iron.
21:19
Michelle: She's raising a human you know, so we've got these like really important things in our lives that we're seeking answers to and we're seeking direction for, and all of these voices are coming at us, direction for, and all of these voices are coming at us and God.
21:36
Michelle: It's interesting because there's a line in that song from that Broadway musical that says um, she will ask you for advice.
21:40
Michelle: Your reply will be concise, she will listen very nicely, then go out and do precisely what she wants.
21:46
Michelle: And I think sometimes that God is saying that's you, you know.
21:51
Michelle: You ask me for advice.
21:52
Michelle: My reply is concise, it's in my word you listen very nicely and you go out and do precisely what you want.
21:59
Michelle: And he's calling us back to think the way he thinks.
22:04
Michelle: And so what role does scripture play?
22:06
Michelle: Everything, because it becomes the standard of truth by which I measure all of the other voices.
22:12
Michelle: It becomes the standard of truth by which I measure all of the other voices.
22:16
Michelle: So some of the voices that you are listening to are wise and good and should be applied, but they have to come under this standard of truth.
22:23
Michelle: They need to be measured against what God says is true, and then you can apply them.
22:29
Michelle: Similarly, though, there also is an opportunity where there may be multiple voices, where there's no right or wrong in this scenario.
22:40
Michelle: So let's go back to my book writing process.
22:42
Michelle: I hired a book coach and he tells me I loved working with you because you asked my advice and then you took it.
22:51
Michelle: And I said, well, isn't that why I hired you?
22:54
Michelle: And he was like, yeah, but you'd be amazed.
22:56
Michelle: People hire me all the time for my advice and then they don't take it, and so, but one thing he said was stop reading all of the craft books.
23:04
Michelle: It was a good thing for you to get to this place but they're going to confuse you at this point because they may say things differently.
23:12
Michelle: We're all leaning towards the same direction, so just listen to my voice and let's get to the end goal.
23:19
Michelle: And he led me there and I was not as confused by trying to incorporate this voice and this voice and this voice.
23:26
Michelle: And that's kind of what we try to do in our world today, rather than just really number one I found a guide that I evaluated and I measured, and I measured against God's word, because I wanted a Christian that would give me wise counsel and would pray with me and pray for me and for my book and all that.
23:46
Michelle: So that was part of one of the things I wanted.
23:48
Michelle: And once I chose that voice, I followed him and I continued you know, if now his was in a craft right?
23:56
Michelle: So I mean it's not like I can go look up a scripture that says should I have, should my antagonist be?
24:01
Michelle: That mean I mean no one's going to say that in the Bible.
24:04
Michelle: But he was.
24:05
Michelle: He was a wise guide and I followed him and it got me to my goal.
24:09
Michelle: And I think sometimes.
24:11
Michelle: Number one there's so many voices and we don't know how to measure them.
24:15
Michelle: Number two even when we do know how to measure them, we try to follow three and four all at once and it's just causing chaos in our lives.
24:24
Michelle: And so I think part of that persistence over time is to remain focused.
24:29
Michelle: What did I do in my podcast?
24:31
Michelle: It was a solo show.
24:33
Michelle: I have done the same thing for 500 episodes I made a template.
24:38
Michelle: Is that keeping me from being creative?
24:40
Michelle: Absolutely not.
24:41
Michelle: It's giving me the guardrails that I needed to be able to consistently, over time, build an audience.
24:47
Michelle: And when you listen to my podcast, you know what you're going to get, because it's been the same since 2014.
24:53
Michelle: Right, so it's not the same, you know.
24:57
Cassandra: Yeah, so Michelle, your book coach was he a Christian?
25:01
Michelle: He is a Christian, yes, ok, ok.
25:04
Cassandra: So what?
25:05
Cassandra: What about individuals that like saying you know, I want to change jobs, I want to start my own business.
25:16
Cassandra: I need to get out of this relationship because I know it's not working for me.
25:23
Cassandra: I want to start a podcast, I want to write a book, and those voices like you're saying it's like oh, you can't write a book, oh, you're not smart enough to do that, oh, you don't have the money to do that.
25:37
Cassandra: What so?
25:39
Cassandra: Where?
25:40
Cassandra: When individuals like my listeners are contemplating or they want to do this but they can't, where would you suggest or provide some insight on where they will?
25:53
Cassandra: They should start in the word, or or should they?
25:57
Cassandra: Should they listen to your podcast?
25:58
Cassandra: What do you think they should do first?
26:04
Michelle: Okay, well, first I would say start, because I would guess there are many listeners out there who, for whatever reason, have set their Bible aside, and I totally get it.
26:15
Michelle: And I think that if somebody would have asked like the main protagonist in my book has done the same thing and there was a loving Christian guide that said when was the last time you read it and why did you set it aside, that's a valid it's a valid just come into terms with what happened, then pick it up and start.
26:35
Michelle: Then, instead of looking for yourself in scripture, start with God.
26:41
Michelle: So if you want to pick up in the Psalms and you say I'm going to read this Psalm because they're easy, they're easier to read because they're one chapter and you can like read from beginning to end and it's all inclusive and all that, rather than looking for yourself in that Psalm, look for God.
26:59
Michelle: What do I?
27:00
Cassandra: learn about him.
27:01
Michelle: His?
27:01
Michelle: Did I?
27:02
Michelle: Do I learn that he's compassionate and that he's gracious?
27:05
Michelle: And do I believe that?
27:08
Michelle: Have I lived my life believing that God is compassionate and gracious so that I can begin to transform what I think about him, so that, as I attune to his spirit and ask him to lead me, I can trust him?
27:24
Michelle: And he is trustworthy and I can tell you that.
27:28
Michelle: But what would happen if he told you that?
27:30
Michelle: What would happen if, when you pick it up, he tells you I'm trustworthy and faithful, I'm unchanging this chaos that you're experiencing in this relationship over here?
27:43
Michelle: That's not me.
27:45
Michelle: I'm unchanging, I'm stable, I'm constant.
27:49
Michelle: I'm constant.
27:50
Michelle: You pick up a New Testament letter and you read it from beginning to end, because how silly is it to read a letter, a sentence out of the middle of a letter and try to get inspiration right.
28:01
Michelle: It's a letter, so read it from the beginning to the end.
28:02
Michelle: Think about who was this audience, what do you think's going on with the original audience, why was he writing this letter and what do I learn about God?
28:11
Michelle: Through the course of this reading.
28:14
Michelle: So start with God.
28:15
Michelle: Start with scripture, like pick it up and start to read it and while you're reading it, stop looking for yourself self.
28:21
Michelle: Start looking for God and let him begin to transform the way you think about him, which will transform the way you respond to what he's calling you to do.
28:29
Cassandra: Okay, okay.
28:30
Cassandra: So it doesn't matter what chapter you read, if you start with the old or do you start with the new.
28:38
Cassandra: Just pick the.
28:39
Cassandra: You just pick the book up and you know, for individuals, that you know your faith wavers.
28:45
Cassandra: Sometimes you got even deeper into it.
28:52
Cassandra: What caused the deepness?
28:57
Cassandra: Like you know, it's kind of like when we're in trouble and things are crazy, then you know we'll pick it up, then you know that's where consistency is not there.
29:10
Cassandra: You know, and you talked about the commitment, you got to be committed to do it.
29:21
Cassandra: And I and I talk a lot of people says, well, I'm not sure if God wants me to do this or do that.
29:25
Cassandra: And I give you an example I recall there was a job opening and and where I was working, and I was like I don't know if God wants me to do this.
29:38
Cassandra: And I went to my dad and I was like, dad, I don't know if this is something that God wants me to do.
29:45
Cassandra: And he said he said, well, I think if you interviewed and if that's something he doesn't want you to do, then you won't get it.
29:52
Cassandra: And I'm like, oh, ok, you know it was.
29:56
Cassandra: He's so logical, it was like simple as that I'm contemplating on whether I should interview with, he said just do it, you know, and if that's not what God has for you, then you won't get it.
30:05
Cassandra: And I and I just hear individuals Christians saying I'm not sure, I'm not sure if I should do this, I'm not sure.
30:14
Cassandra: So what you're saying is, as long as you get into the word and see God not put yourself in there, the word, it will be revealed.
30:25
Michelle: Yeah, you know, I think, specifically, I love the advice of when you're coming up against decisions, which one leads to greater holiness is a good question to ask.
30:36
Michelle: That's a good one.
30:39
Michelle: Another one sometimes it's like what you're saying where the opportunity itself is neutral.
30:44
Michelle: You know what I'm saying.
30:45
Michelle: Like you know that the job is not asking you to sin in any overt way, then you know what I mean.
30:51
Michelle: Like, so you're going to measure it against the truth of scripture.
30:55
Michelle: The decision that you have, is this going to take you away from your family that you have committed to raising?
31:04
Michelle: You know, is it going to take you out of commitments that you've already made before God?
31:08
Michelle: Right, would it?
31:08
Michelle: Would it affect your marriage?
31:10
Michelle: Would it pull you away from a spouse that you've already entered into a covenant relationship with?
31:14
Michelle: Then that's not going to lead to greater holiness.
31:17
Michelle: But sometimes you've got these I mean in the example I gave, like which guide?
31:22
Michelle: You know, which craft do I follow to write my book?
31:26
Michelle: Well, I could have done either one, as long as I've committed to it.
31:29
Michelle: The key, another key so you, we've already talked about commitment.
31:33
Michelle: The other key is, uh, and I've mentioned it, accountability.
31:37
Michelle: So I had a book coach and I had someone who said all right, look, we're going to agree together that this is your goal.
31:44
Michelle: He didn't.
31:44
Michelle: It wasn't his, it was my goal.
31:47
Michelle: I went with it.
31:48
Michelle: I went to him with this goal and he, within his expertise, said here's how you can accomplish it.
31:53
Michelle: It's going to stretch you, but it's not impossible.
31:56
Michelle: Do this and I.
31:58
Michelle: And so I follow that.
31:59
Michelle: And then I was held accountable.
32:00
Michelle: Like I said, at the end of every four weeks, I wanted to make sure I feel accountable to my listeners.
32:05
Michelle: You know, I feel like, um, a couple of weeks ago, I came out with my podcast on a Tuesday.
32:10
Michelle: It just happened.
32:11
Michelle: It hardly ever happens.
32:12
Michelle: I'm a Monday.
32:13
Michelle: I released my podcast on Monday and, no, like the sky did not fall, but I have this sense of accountability to them, even though I really can't see them.
32:22
Michelle: Many of them email me and things like that.
32:25
Michelle: The third aspect is community.
32:27
Michelle: So where did it go deeper, when I could get in it and get fired up about it and then have a conversation with you about it?
32:36
Michelle: And then you go oh my gosh, yeah, I saw that too, or I've never seen that before, or you know, uh, so I, uh, my my youngest homeschools and she's a senior in high school this year and I'm her Bible teacher.
32:48
Michelle: Everything else she's pretty much doing online through dual enrollment things like that, uh.
32:52
Michelle: But I said, okay, I'm going to be your Bible teacher and so we're reading through Hebrews and we were reading in chapter five or six or whatever, and she goes.
33:01
Michelle: You know what this makes me think of?
33:02
Michelle: This makes me think of this other verse that I read the other day in first Corinthians and she flipped over and she was like mom, I just like followed my own, my first cross reference.
33:14
Michelle: Like in my own head I remembered that something was over here that connected to over here and we talk about it all the time and we've got study helps that show us how.
33:23
Michelle: But the Lord showed her.
33:25
Michelle: It happened to her.
33:27
Michelle: And what makes me go deeper Having experiences like that?
33:31
Michelle: What if?
33:31
Michelle: you're just sitting around visiting with friends about what the?
33:34
Michelle: Lord has shown you in his word.
33:36
Michelle: Did you know that his thoughts are higher than our thoughts and his ways are higher than our ways?
33:41
Michelle: Did you know that he I had a new believer one time was like.
33:45
Michelle: I just read in Jeremiah that he has plans for me and a hope for my future.
33:51
Michelle: And it was her first time seeing it for herself, and it wasn't somebody else standing on a stage telling her, although there's value in that, um, you know, and so you might say okay, but the Bible is a big book, I'm still very intimidated.
34:06
Michelle: I don't know where to start.
34:07
Michelle: Um, if you go to church, go, think about what verse your pastor used on Sunday.
34:13
Michelle: My pastor was in Acts, so if you don't have nowhere else to go, go to Acts, chapter 17, right there and see what happens.
34:19
Michelle: Um, if you have't have nowhere else to go, go to Acts, chapter 17 and start reading right there and see what happens.
34:23
Michelle: If you have a devotional that you like, usually at the top there'll be like a verse.
34:25
Michelle: Don't just read that one verse.
34:26
Michelle: Go read the chapter before the chapter and the chapter after where that verse is, and again seek the Lord's face before you seek his hand.
34:34
Michelle: Where you seek his hand.
34:36
Michelle: Right and when doing that, share it with a friend, because that will bond you together and create this excitement and interest.
34:47
Michelle: Yeah, my daughter goes to.
34:50
Michelle: My oldest daughter goes to Tulane University and we joke sort of that.
34:56
Michelle: It's like Sodom and Gomorrah.
34:57
Michelle: It's in New Orleans and it is a very dark city and a very dark place and it's a very dark campus.
35:06
Michelle: Christians are not welcome there.
35:12
Michelle: But I went and did a talk with she's got a group of young college girls in this college ministry they call it Abide, which I love, and I show up on a Wednesday night to 20 girls with Bibles, 20 girls with Bibles in their laps on a campus that is not known for Christian influence, and they're studying the word and they're talking about the word.
35:37
Michelle: And that's not the only night they meet.
35:40
Michelle: They were talking about okay, well, um, so next wednesday we're going to meet again.
35:44
Michelle: But don't forget to meet with your small groups.
35:46
Michelle: They meet with small groups in between and they have like coordinated quiet times where they just kind of show up to each other's houses for a couple of hours every week.
35:55
Michelle: I was so inspired by these young women who are, I mean, and they're studying to be doctors and lawyers and I mean we don't.
36:05
Michelle: They have this full plate of of very rigorous academics and they're equaling their time in God's word with their time in biomedicine and it's just inspiring.
36:19
Michelle: That's what happens when you are in community, so don't do it alone.
36:23
Michelle: Accountability is a little different.
36:25
Michelle: You can often get accountability in community.
36:28
Michelle: Accountability is a little bit different.
36:30
Michelle: You're giving that person kind of permission to have a little bit of authority over a goal that you have agreed to.
36:35
Michelle: But community is so, so important to reinforce that commitment that you've made.
36:42
Cassandra: Right, right, that's amazing.
36:44
Cassandra: I remember this.
36:46
Cassandra: You reminded me of a time when I was in a dark place and I was very I was.
36:53
Cassandra: I called it.
36:54
Cassandra: I was just sold out to the Lord.
36:55
Cassandra: I was just sold out to the Lord and I asked the question to him are you, have you ever you know new, new in Christ?
37:04
Cassandra: Have you ever like been down or depressed or downtrodden or whatever?
37:10
Cassandra: Blah, blah, blah.
37:12
Cassandra: And the next day, when I was reading my devotion, I saw no, I was reading the word and I just happened to the spirit, just happened to have me come to the three thing Would you take this cup away from me?
37:26
Cassandra: Okay, and the and the and his, his, his boys, I call it, it was sleep.
37:31
Cassandra: He went back and he said would you please take this?
37:35
Cassandra: Can you take this cup for me?
37:37
Cassandra: And that to me was like oh my gosh, he was showing me that he was down.
37:43
Cassandra: You know that it's OK.
37:45
Cassandra: You know that he was upset with his, with the disciples, because they wouldn't stay up with him and all of that.
37:51
Cassandra: So it's kind of like I said in my book if you want to know, if you want to know the Lord, if you want to have a relationship with him.
38:02
Cassandra: You can, and he knows that, you know, so he will reveal.
38:07
Cassandra: Should I be in this relationship, should I do this job?
38:10
Cassandra: Just things will come up, but you have to trust him and be committed to it.
38:16
Michelle: Yeah, and he, you know the thing is is that he's promised to be with us.
38:21
Michelle: He is ever present.
38:23
Michelle: He doesn't sleep, he's not.
38:26
Michelle: He's not disappointed in you.
38:29
Michelle: He wants you to turn your face and and and sometimes turn your direction away from sin.
38:37
Michelle: He's never going to like sin right, so he's never going to want you to walk in sin.
38:44
Michelle: So that's what I've said.
38:45
Michelle: I mean, if this decision, if one leads to greater holiness, always go toward that decision.
38:51
Michelle: Sometimes it's very black and white.
38:53
Michelle: He's like, no, this is not consistent with my character and this decision will lead you to a very bad place.
39:01
Michelle: You know there are certain things that are in God's word.
39:05
Michelle: Lord, should I stay in this marriage?
39:08
Michelle: Yes, you know.
39:11
Michelle: I mean, obviously we know that there are reasons for divorce that are outlined in scripture, but the majority of the time when you're asking that question, that's not the reasons that's going on in your life.
39:20
Michelle: You're um, you're wrestling with some other things, and so a lot of times, um, yes, we want his guidance, uh, except we want his answer to be what we want it to be.
39:31
Michelle: And so why would you need God?
39:34
Michelle: Then, like, you're just making yourself into your own God and you have to know that he is who he says he is and he is all powerful.
39:45
Michelle: And that Red Sea that's like all bubbly over there and the thing barreling behind you, that's nothing to him.
39:52
Michelle: He can split it and let you walk across on dry ground and drown the enemies in your very presence.
39:58
Michelle: But, you have to trust him.
40:00
Michelle: I mean, if you, if you go back to Exodus right before the people were flipping out, they are like you led us to the side of this sea and I can hear the horses whinnying.
40:16
Michelle: You know what God said Chill out, be calm, be still and no, you know, just be still.
40:25
Michelle: Just be still, and so he's like I get it.
40:30
Michelle: I know that you're in this turmoil, but I am also a great and mighty God.
40:35
Michelle: I am who I am, and mighty God, I am who I am, and so I think that as we turn our eyes away from ourselves I've heard it called navel gazing where you're just kind of so bent over and looking at yourself and you also put your blinders on so that the circumstances of your life are not defining for you who God is, and you go into his word and you look for him.
41:02
Michelle: You will find him, and then he will remind you that he is with you.
41:08
Michelle: And I'm not trying to diminish the very, very difficult decisions that your listeners are facing.
41:14
Michelle: I just I do want to challenge, though, if you know that you know that this message was for you he is calling you to himself.
41:23
Michelle: He is saying enough is enough, turn toward me, fix your eyes on you.
41:30
Michelle: Know it says uh, fix your eyes on the author and finisher of your faith.
41:32
Michelle: Look at me, look at me, fix your eyes on me, and we're going to get through this together.
41:37
Michelle: And then it also says to shed the sin that so easily entangles us.
41:42
Michelle: So we start to drop off the sin that we, that we get tripped up in we keep our eyes fixed on Jesus and we run our race, that he's set before us and he's going to be with us.
41:52
Michelle: He's going to be cheering us.
41:53
Michelle: On One of the questions that you know, people ask well, how did?
41:56
Michelle: How did you write the?
41:56
Michelle: What was the creative process of writing the book?
41:58
Michelle: And I know some non-believers are like going to roll their eyes at this, but I would go on walks and I would say, okay, lord, this is the scene we're writing today.
42:06
Michelle: What should I write?
42:08
Michelle: And sometimes I literally felt like he said I don't know.
42:12
Michelle: What do you think?
42:13
Cassandra: Yeah.
42:14
Michelle: And it was such a beautiful process to do it with him.
42:17
Michelle: I'm not doing it for him.
42:20
Michelle: I'm not doing it to impress him.
42:22
Michelle: It was something that we did together.
42:25
Michelle: It was something that I did, that he never left me.
42:28
Michelle: He inspired me.
42:30
Michelle: I a hundred percent believe that.
42:31
Michelle: I mean, someone would say how did you even think to come up with whatever, whatever?
42:35
Michelle: And I'm like, I don't know.
42:37
Michelle: It's just me, and God you know, just walking down this creative path and um, and yet he's in all of it you know, I love that.
42:46
Cassandra: I love that.
42:47
Cassandra: It's like um the seat at the table right your book.
42:51
Cassandra: It's like is that about like sitting at the table with God, even though it's it's fiction?
42:57
Michelle: yeah, so, interestingly enough, it's like got this like double entendre kind of thing, because joy wants a seat at the table, she like in the in, like a corporate sense she wants her voice to be heard and she wants success and whatever.
43:11
Michelle: But she learns throughout the course of the story um, what kind of table she wants to sit at is really Christ's table.
43:19
Michelle: We are seated with Christ in the heavenly places, scripture tells us.
43:24
Michelle: And so there's there's a lot of beautiful table imagery in scripture.
43:29
Michelle: So I actually have been working on a Bible study to kind of go along inspired by the book, kind of like I sometimes do my podcast inspired by the song.
43:37
Michelle: I'm doing some Bible studies inspired by the book and it's just such a it is yes, it's got this.
43:43
Michelle: This idea of the world thinks a seat at the table means this.
43:47
Michelle: And God says a seat at the table means him.
43:51
Cassandra: Yes.
43:52
Michelle: He is like all the way back in the old Testament, the table of the bread of presence.
43:58
Michelle: It's to be with him, it's to be, it's him, it is him, and so yeah, michelle girl.
44:08
Cassandra: That is great, I know.
44:09
Cassandra: I know you spoke to my heart and if you spoke to my heart, you were speaking to a whole lot of other people.
44:16
Cassandra: And one of the things you said that the women you work with at the leadership college and how the podcasting weekly changes them changes you.
44:29
Cassandra: So just saying, if my listeners start listening and committed and persistent, it will change them.
44:43
Michelle: Oh, yeah, for sure.
44:44
Michelle: I did a conference recently, a women's conference, and it was really sweet because one of my listeners actually made it all happen and she said she's been listening since 2017 and that it's by incorporating some of the practical things that I teach on the podcast it has transformed her ability to interact with God's word and then, ultimately, just her relationship with the Lord and with his people.
45:10
Michelle: And I'm just a vessel, you know, and the bites that I share are just, I tell people, I didn't create them, I curate them.
45:19
Michelle: You know, I have good conversations with people all the time and I that sounds fun and I incorporate it into my own Bible study time and um, but, yes, it is transformative because, because God is so interesting I was.
45:31
Michelle: I've been thinking a lot about this, because my most recent podcast was on the unchanging nature of God, his immutability and how that's a characteristic that's true only of him.
45:40
Michelle: We are not unchanging, right, and so, uh, in fact, we are constantly changing.
45:46
Michelle: In fact, we're designed to change, to grow more like him.
45:52
Michelle: We are called to um, to shed, uh, the old nature and put on the new nature, and we are called to continue to be.
46:00
Michelle: We are sanctified and continue to be sanctified.
46:04
Michelle: So we're constantly changing and growing.
46:07
Michelle: So this thing that we love about God him being unchanging gives us that kind of that foundation and that settledness to be able to grow, to try that job, to write that book and just see what happens.
46:22
Michelle: You know, I just think the world doesn't end if the job, if you picked the wrong job, because God's not going anywhere, he's not saying well, you picked the wrong job, I'm out.
46:32
Michelle: That's not his nature, that's not who he is, he's going to be there, right there with you, and the very place that you think might be the wrong place.
46:41
Michelle: I mean Emily at the beginning thought Tulane after the first semester.
46:46
Michelle: She's like I just, I just want out, I want to, I want to go to LSU where it's more, where it's easier to be a Christian, and God was like Nope, I actually have you here For a reason and she can now see just why, why you know so sometimes we make decisions and think it's wrong, just because it's hard, like no, actually.
47:07
Michelle: Um, I'm leading you down this path of endurance that leads to character, and character leads to hope.
47:12
Cassandra: And right point, yeah um, before I, I Before I have you to give where individuals can follow you on your podcast, I'd like for you to share with the listeners who are lukewarm.
47:28
Cassandra: They've given their life over to the Lord, but they're not in a place where they believe they should be.
47:37
Cassandra: You know, it's like you know, as God says, I'll spear you out.
47:42
Cassandra: You know you can't figure out which way you want to go, but there are listeners that are lukewarm.
47:47
Cassandra: You know, and knowing and been what I would call had taken a deep dive before with God and know the things that he has done and can do, but they just can't seem to get back there.
48:04
Cassandra: Could you speak to those listeners that are dealing with that?
48:08
Michelle: Yeah, first of all, I just want to tell you that he's calling you home, he's calling you back.
48:14
Michelle: This is, if you are lukewarm and you are feeling that right now, it's because he is drawing you.
48:21
Michelle: And I also know that with Christ there is no condemnation.
48:27
Michelle: So if you are hearing voices of shame, if you are hearing a voice of guilt, that's not the father's voice, and so my question back to you is whose voice is it?
48:40
Michelle: Because we have an enemy who does not want you to rest in the hope and the peace that you have in Christ.
48:50
Michelle: He wants to draw you away from that.
48:53
Michelle: And so I would say, um, you are not too far gone, he is calling you back.
49:00
Michelle: I would say start with scripture.
49:02
Michelle: I would say connect with community.
49:04
Michelle: You know that person that you can call right now and you can say I just need to confess to you that I want to want God more, and will you pray with me?
49:17
Michelle: You have a person.
49:18
Michelle: If you are lukewarm like that, you probably have a person, I don't care how far back in the distance, and I will tell you this right now if that person is worth their salt, they are a follower of Christ.
49:28
Michelle: They will be so grateful to pray with you.
49:31
Michelle: I encourage my listeners.
49:33
Michelle: I just say my prayer for you is that God will give you an unreasonable desire for his word that will lead to an unsurpassable relationship with him.
49:42
Michelle: I truly believe and I do want to encourage you to go pick up the pages of his word and be reminded maybe not like Leviticus.
49:52
Michelle: Do you know what I'm saying?
49:53
Michelle: There's a few places that might not be as helpful, but just be reminded, he's there, it's his story and everything points.
50:03
Michelle: I have this children's Bible that says every story whispers his name.
50:08
Michelle: All the stories through the Old and New Testament are pointing to Jesus, who is the way, the truth and the life, and so I love the title of your podcast and your book.
50:19
Michelle: Is your way, getting in, your, in your way?
50:22
Michelle: I will tell you it's.
50:25
Michelle: If you go, if you look to the way, I think, a lot of these, the angst that you're feeling, will fall to the wayside.
50:33
Michelle: And he's not standing in judgment of you, he's.
50:36
Michelle: He's like the father, picking up his, his skirts and running to the father saying I, I, you've returned.
50:45
Michelle: That's, that's the father, that's that's right.
50:48
Cassandra: That's beautiful, michelle.
50:50
Cassandra: Thank you so much.
50:51
Cassandra: Would you please tell my listeners how can they connect with you on your podcast or even get in touch with you?
51:00
Michelle: Yeah, yeah.
51:01
Michelle: So I actually created this page.
51:03
Michelle: I just want to thank you for letting me be on here so that your listeners can hear my story, and so I created a couple of freebies for them, and so if you go to Michelle knees at dot com, forward slash, unlock it will unlock.
51:18
Michelle: Forward slash, unlock, it will unlock.
51:22
Michelle: And I have a link to my podcast, a link to my book, and then like four or five freebies that I've listed out there ways that they can engage both with some of the Bible studies I've written and also some resources around the book, and then links to other podcasts that I've been on on this podcast tour.
51:37
Michelle: So thank you so much, cassandra, for having me on here.
51:40
Michelle: So it's michellekneesatcom forward slash, unlock.
51:44
Cassandra: Okay, okay.
51:45
Cassandra: Well, michelle, as I always say to my listeners and to my guests, I say bye for now and God bless you.
51:54
Cassandra: And in the event that I know, I just know within my spirit that this podcast has been a blessing and I ask my listeners to please share it with someone where you know that this will be the beginning of a life change and also just know that this podcast will be played on all podcast platforms.
52:20
Cassandra: So again, michelle, I thank you, god bless you and bye for now.