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Transcript

Neal Bates - Part 1 · Rusty's Garage

0:02
A listener production.
0:13
I'm automotive commentator and journalist Greg Rust, and this is Rusty's Garage.
0:27
For this episode, I'm in Canberra, the capital of Australia, but I'm not here to see the Prime Minister.
0:32
You'd argue it's actually someone way better.
0:35
I'm at the workshop of Neil Bates Motorsport to finally interview the four-time Australian Rally Champion.
0:41
Actually, it's five if you count the classic title.
0:44
Like our last step with drag racing legend Jim Reid, this one is also way overdue.
0:50
And because of Neil's achievements over more than 40 years in the game, we have made it a three-parter for you.
0:58
I've set up the recorder and mics in his office, surrounded by trophies and cool pics and memorabilia from all sorts of places around the world.
1:07
The Bathurst Podium.
1:09
to the unique roads of West Australia and the iconic World Rally Championship event there, plus Celicas and Corollas sliding beautifully into those picture frames, even though they were on the limit in that moment.
1:22
Downstairs, the very loyal members of his team are hard at work, from servicing everyday rides to prepping their Yaris rally cars for sons Harry and Lewis for their Australian Championship campaigns –
1:37
What they have built here in the ACT is truly world class.
1:42
That word loyalty extends beyond the crew.
1:45
Coral Taylor has kindly helped me with a bit of intel for this chat.
1:50
The driver-co-driver relationship they have is one of the longest partnerships in Aussie sport.
1:56
And we can't forget Toyota here either, from winning a competition with them as a young bloke to circuit racing and a lifelong rally connection that makes one of the world's biggest manufacturers like family to Neil and vice versa.
2:12
In the workshop, they also prep some rally cars for customers, and some of the first new generation 86 race cars are having the finishing touches applied.
2:22
The attention to detail here makes these 86s both cool and cost effective.
2:29
That is a great series.
2:31
Looking at them, I just want to drive one again.
2:33
Over time, Neil has kindly taken me for rides in his WRC Corolla back in the day and let me run an 86 in a rally sprint in Sydney.
2:42
We spent several years working together on the Network 10 ARC TV coverage during a golden period for the sport.
2:50
He was behind the wheel at the time, but I'm proud of the rapport that we have and there is plenty for us to talk about.
2:58
His wife Jane has kindly brought us coffee, so...
3:01
Let's get into it.
3:02
From humble beginnings and a household that truly loved cars and motorsport.
3:09
Mate, welcome.
3:10
This is long and way overdue.
3:13
In peeling all this back, where did the love of motor racing come from for you?
3:20
Look, I think...
3:21
For me, you know, I grew up in a family that my father and actually my mother both did hill climbs and the local drags and stuff, so had an interest in motorsport and, you know, for sure dad had an interest in it and used to work on some people's cars and used to compete and whatever, but...
3:44
My first understanding of this is what I want to do was when the Castro Rally was on in 1980 and there was a whole lot of tarmac stages around the suburbs.
3:57
Of Canberra here, yeah.
3:58
Of Canberra.
3:59
My father, he wasn't particularly interested in rallying, but because there was tarmac and he was interested in that and Colin Bond was running and Ari Barton and Greg Carr, but he went out and took us out to watch...
4:14
probably columbond you know because that was dad's hero i suppose and um you know i went out there and saw ari vartnan and i still have that video on my head and you know my old man was going oh he's a bloody idiot he's too sideways he's too this and but i just thought
4:31
He looked unreal and that was exciting.
4:33
Take us back a little bit.
4:34
I mean, you rattled off some impressive local names and international names.
4:38
Ari would have been in probably a Ford Escort back then.
4:40
What was he running?
4:40
Yeah, he was in a BDA Escort and Bondi was in the factory Ford and Greg Carr, obviously.
4:48
And yeah, then there was Hugh Bell.
4:52
in a Destin 1600 and yeah everyone of the who of rallying back then, you know, I didn't know anything about rallying then, didn't know any of those people obviously I know all that now but I just saw this thing, this sport that was just amazingly spectacular and that's
5:12
you know, from that day on that's all I wanted to do.
5:15
And we had a subject at school called careers and they asked me what I wanted to do and I said a rally driver and I was sent to the principal's office.
5:24
So, yeah, luckily I was able to go back to the school and do a talk a few years ago about following your dreams and doing what you want to do.
5:34
And probably like most people that you talk to, I wasn't particularly an academic at all.
5:39
And, you know, so I was told that people like you,
5:43
We'll never get a job and happy to say I probably never got a real job, so I'm pretty happy with that.
5:48
You've made a great life here, which we'll get to.
5:53
Just in summing up a few things about family life to begin with, firstly, I think your dad's in his 80s now and he's still doing some hill climbs.
5:59
Is that right?
5:59
Is he often doing that?
6:00
Yeah, I think he probably did his last hill climb probably three or four years ago.
6:04
I think he got second out right in a club.
6:07
I think he was in his late 80s.
6:10
70s at the time.
6:11
So he still for sure has an interest in mudder racing for sure.
6:19
And, you know, I...
6:21
On a recent trip when I was driving to Perth a few weeks ago, I listened to a lot of these podcasts.
6:26
And one thing that sort of stood out was all this father and son stuff.
6:30
And, you know, whilst my old man was incredibly good, he used to take us out of the suburbs of Canberra.
6:38
Because for those that don't know, years ago they built...
6:41
entire suburbs and I mean, you know, 10 or so suburbs of roads with no houses.
6:47
Houses, yeah.
6:48
So Dad used to take us out there and teach us to drive and we had our own little racetrack that we would roar around and, you know, time ourselves and all that sort of stuff.
6:56
But, you know, when it came to rallying, he didn't really have an interest in that.
6:59
So, you know, from when I started rallying when I was 18...
7:04
I was on mine and that was it.
7:06
Tell me a little bit more.
7:07
Just firstly, you know, kind of humble family life, I guess you could say.
7:13
Proud parents, obviously.
7:15
All the boys.
7:16
I mean, your twin brother, Rick, Nicholas, who we see at motor racing events.
7:19
You've all made a life around cars or motorsport in some way.
7:24
haven't you?
7:24
Yeah, it's interesting.
7:26
Obviously, as I say, we were brought up around it, I suppose, at an entry level.
7:33
But we all went on to...
7:36
It's funny because I won the Star Search competition in 1989.
7:41
That's how I got involved with Toyota.
7:43
But then in 1990, Alan Grice ran the Peter Jackson Search for a Champion and Rick actually won that.
7:49
So, yeah, there was...
7:51
Some parallels but different.
7:54
Two searcher champions over two years and Noel Bates won by twin brothers.
8:01
Fantastic.
8:02
With a second name Bates.
8:03
We're in your office here.
8:04
There's all sorts of unreal memorabilia from trophies to photos of magic moments and so on.
8:11
Immediately over your shoulder is something that catches my eye and it's a Datsun 1600.
8:14
So what was the first kind of rally car?
8:17
How did you get it?
8:24
So with rallying, a mate of mine actually had a rally car and he was doing rallies and I went out testing with him once and loved it because I still had this video of Ari Barton in my head and also I thought that I could maybe do it better.
8:43
But, you know, and he was doing well and he was a good driver.
8:45
But, you know, I suppose if you don't think you can do it better, you shouldn't be doing this.
8:49
And so I went and bought a Datsun 1600 that cost me $800.
8:53
I still remember where I bought it in Red Hill and then drove it home.
8:57
And then that was my pride and joy.
9:01
And that's what I did my first rallying.
9:03
The...
9:05
greater chapter of your life is Toyota, right?
9:08
So we'll just delve a little bit here on the Datsun thing for a second because cutting laps, learning car control around those empty streets that you were talking about a moment ago, was it a 1600 ute or something?
9:17
What were you in?
9:18
Was it a Datsun ute?
9:19
It was a Datsun 1500 ute.
9:24
Nicholas, my younger brother, Rick, and myself all learned to drive in that ute.
9:28
So actually I could probably take you over and show you because we're actually restoring it for Dad.
9:33
Fantastic.
9:34
Which is another story but it's been a bit of a long project and should have been finished by now.
9:40
It was actually meant to be for his 80th birthday and that's gone and passed and it's still happening but...
9:47
But, yeah, it's a car that, you know, to other people means nothing to us.
9:52
It means a lot.
9:52
A lot, yeah.
9:53
You're attached to it.
9:54
You win your first rally, am I right?
9:58
But you did have trouble getting regular co-drivers.
10:02
Is this true?
10:03
Tell us a bit about that.
10:04
Yeah, I won.
10:05
I borrowed Rick's co-driver for my first rally and I won that rally by –
10:09
I can't remember.
10:10
It was either six and a half or six and three quarter minutes because it was quarter minute timing back then.
10:15
Yep.
10:16
And so, yeah, and when I think about that rally, I had a few problems like the throttle jammed on.
10:22
So then I did a couple of stages driving it on the key and was still getting fastest times.
10:26
Unbelievable.
10:27
By coming down the corners and switching it off and then switching it back on to...
10:34
Or if I was too late on the brakes, just push a clutch in and let it hemorrhage.
10:41
But, yeah, I did win my first rally by a lot.
10:43
And Yoda, I think...
10:47
for whatever reason, you talk about car control, you know, and we look at motor racing these days and I see it in the 86 series and that, you know, to me the essence of motor racing is car control because, you know, the idea is to push it to the absolute limit without going over it.
11:05
If you have that car control to back yourself up, you're more confident to push it to the...
11:11
to the limit and drive at the limit without fear of it losing control because you understand that if it goes over the limit, you're going to sort it out.
11:20
And if you have a look at Shane Van Gisburgh, he's a classic example of that.
11:24
So from a progression sort of standpoint here, in order to make this work,
11:32
I gather you were driving trucks at night, you bought your first business at age 19.
11:36
I mean, you didn't have much of a social life.
11:38
You were just all in on this mission, weren't you?
11:41
Yeah, I was...
11:44
I'm not religious, so I can't call it a mission from God.
11:49
Blues Brothers?
11:50
Yeah.
11:51
But...
11:53
But, yeah, all I wanted to do was, you know, and I...
11:57
It's funny because people say, oh, yeah, you started off, you know, you were just doing rallying for fun or whatever, but I always had in the back of my head that that's what I wanted to do for a living.
12:06
You know, for me there was something deeper that was burning that that's what I wanted to do, you know, because I looked at the George Furies and I looked at the Greg Cars and... Jeff Portman and people like that, yeah.
12:17
And they were, you know, getting paid to be rally drivers.
12:20
That's what I wanted to do, so...
12:22
So I did an apprenticeship as a mechanic, which I think when I started I was getting $78 a week.
12:29
And $78 a week wasn't going to get you that many rallies.
12:33
So I then drove a truck at night because my old man had trucks all his life.
12:39
To what?
12:39
Like after midnight or something?
12:40
How was it?
12:41
So I used to start at six at night and it was at Ready Mix Quarry here in Canberra and they used to crush the metal into different sizes and then it would need to be stockpiled around the quarry.
12:55
So I used to park under the bins.
12:58
open the bin, fill the truck up, go and drop it.
13:00
It was 5.8 or 3.25 or whatever, go and drop it in the various stockpiles.
13:04
And I used to do that from 6 at night until 2 in the morning.
13:07
And then start at what time again the next morning?
13:09
Well, supposedly start at 8, but I was notorious for not being able to get up in the morning.
13:16
So the guys that I worked with, they used to swing by.
13:21
on the first test drive or whatever in the morning and actually physically wake me up because I lived on my own then because my parents split up around the time that I started work and then dad got a girlfriend and so I was the only person living in the house.
13:36
So I lived in the family home.
13:39
I was it.
13:40
So, yeah, getting up wasn't one of my strengths, still isn't.
13:45
So the focus of this I think is just amazing, mate, the fact that, you know, these memories of Anari Vatan had inspired you and that was all you kind of really wanted to do.
13:56
Is it fair to say that there was a...
13:59
A pretty significant turning point here in sort of mid-80s, 86, I want to say, Alpine Rally.
14:06
You are against the likes of Greg Carr, who you mentioned before.
14:12
You were Carr 56.
14:13
56.
14:13
56.
14:14
And you end up leading the...
14:18
And am I right in saying, because it was all manual timing and things like that back then, they thought there was a problem.
14:24
They didn't believe that you could be leading the event.
14:27
Is that correct?
14:28
Is that what happened?
14:29
Yeah.
14:31
I'd competed in state rounds and there was a state round, I think, two weeks before the Alpine.
14:37
And I said to myself, so I entered the Alpine and I said, if I win the state round, I'll go to the Alpine.
14:44
And I won the state round by...
14:46
Quite a large margin and then... Alpine is famous too.
14:49
I mean, a legendary rally, great roads and things, isn't it?
14:52
So, yeah.
14:52
So, that was an ARC round.
14:55
As I say, I was doing ACT rallies initially and then some New South Wales state rounds and then...
15:03
Basement's Bay and Arooma, that kind of thing.
15:04
Yep, yep.
15:05
And then I thought if I win the state round, I think at the time everyone was telling me I should go and do the Alpine.
15:12
So I did enter and then I won the state round, so I thought I'll go and do the Alpine.
15:16
I was car 56, which I was pretty unhappy about that because I...
15:21
I thought that I should have been...
15:23
Seated higher kind of thing.
15:24
Seated a lot higher than that.
15:25
And someone that I was competing with in state rounds and beating or running with was Greg Brown.
15:33
And I think from memory he was like car 14 or something.
15:36
Oh, wow.
15:36
So I was pretty peeved with that.
15:38
And so then my co-driver at the time, Dave Jorgensen, we did the first stage and I said, you know, have a look at Peter Clarke.
15:48
Peter Clarke was someone from Canberra who was running the ARC in Estanza at the time, really good guy and he used to help me a lot and sell me second-hand tyres cheap and give me second-hand tyres.
16:00
And...
16:02
So I said, I'll have a look at Clarkie's time and we beat him by God knows how much.
16:06
And then I said, I'll have a look at someone else's time.
16:08
And then I said, oh, what about George Fury's?
16:11
And if my memory serves me correct, he looked at George Fury's and we were 12 seconds faster.
16:17
Unbelievable.
16:17
And I thought at the time...
16:20
Is he on the wrong minute or what's going on here?
16:23
And then so we did the second stage and third stage and the same thing.
16:27
And then there was a refuel and, you know, the guy in car 55.
16:33
said to me, how are you going?
16:35
I said, I think we might be leading.
16:37
And then you could see the look on his face and he went back to his crew and there was a raucous of laughter as he's told them.
16:45
Your story.
16:46
That Dickhead behind thinks he's leading but they didn't believe that.
16:49
And then we got to the end of the first division and there were some results there and we were leading.
16:54
Fantastic.
16:55
The story has a little twist in it because –
17:00
What was it?
17:00
Was it something to do with maybe a distributor part?
17:02
You had a problem with the car, didn't you?
17:04
And you would ultimately lose minutes because of that.
17:06
And had you not been given maybe a derived time, if I'm right, you'll need to join the dots here for me.
17:12
It was either a win or a top three or something like that, wasn't it, for sure?
17:16
So we started the last day in second, which was – and George Fury was leading.
17:22
We were second.
17:23
And we'd had a whole lot of problems at night, the car cutting out and not running properly and all that sort of stuff.
17:29
So we dropped back.
17:30
behind George Fury and then...
17:33
So a distributor shaft, what was going on?
17:35
Yeah, so we didn't know at the time.
17:37
And then we had a look at it the next morning.
17:40
But the funny part about it, you talk about getting up late, we went down to the service park on Sunday morning.
17:46
Every other car was out of the park for me except for mine, which was sitting on the oval because we'd sort of slept in a little bit.
17:53
Had we got up early, maybe we would have found the distributor shaft.
17:58
So then we were in the first stage the next morning going along, came round the corner at the spectator point, went up the hill a little bit and the car stopped.
18:08
So we go, oh, well, we're out.
18:10
And so then go down to the spectator point and start spectating.
18:14
And then I hear the car fire up.
18:18
So there were some spectators there who went up, basically diagnosed it, which was the distributor shaft baron was worn.
18:25
And fixed it.
18:26
So the points weren't opening.
18:28
So then they fixed it.
18:29
And I go, oh, yeah, but we've lost too much time.
18:32
And they said...
18:33
They had a Datsun 180B there, took the distributor out of that, put it in my car, away we go.
18:40
And so then they said, and I said, no, but we've lost too much time.
18:43
They go, no, no, no, there's maximans, which I'd never heard of.
18:47
So the maximum for that stage was eight minutes.
18:50
So then we continued on in the rally.
18:52
And in the end, we ended up fourth in the rally.
18:56
George Fury actually got excluded.
18:58
David Officer won the rally.
18:59
And we ended up fourth, 7 minutes 36 behind David Officer after dropping an eight-minute maximum.
19:06
Legendary names that you've just rattled off there.
19:09
I think if people go hunting on YouTube, you've got to do a little bit of searching to find it.
19:13
You can...
19:14
fine pictures or maybe grainy vision of, is it a long-haired Neil Bates back then?
19:21
What did you look like?
19:22
Yeah, well, I suppose good clothes and whatever weren't part of my winning rally thing.
19:34
So my rally uniform back then was a pair of King G's
19:40
tied up with a bit of wire because anyone that used to wear King G's back then, the buttons always broke.
19:45
So I used to get a bit of welding wire and tie them up there.
19:49
And then, yeah, I had frizzy long hair and my nickname was Grub, so that probably tells the story.
19:54
Crazy, crazy.
19:55
So you do a mechanical apprenticeship.
19:57
You buy your first business at 19.
19:59
What we're in now, all these years later, is something to absolutely behold.
20:05
But that was the beginnings in many ways, wasn't it, mate?
20:08
And you still have, as a part of this business year, something that is dedicated to sort of servicing and maintenance of road cars and things, don't you?
20:16
Yeah.
20:17
Look, I had a mate...
20:22
Peter Dimmick and myself, we bought a business called Beetle Exchange and then Rick came into that with us as well.
20:27
So there was three of us in it and that was a V-Dub business, buying and selling used cars, also working...
20:37
on them and also wrecking them, you know, buying wrecks and stripping them and selling the parts.
20:44
So, you know, it was an incredibly good business and we had just finished apprenticeships at the time for the three of us and it was our foray into the business world and, look, it was an incredibly good business and, you know, we made some pretty good money out of it and, you know,
21:03
My mud erasing became more and more and I was away.
21:08
more and more, you know, and they were carrying me a lot.
21:13
And to their credit, there was never any animosity with any of that.
21:16
But when it came time for me to go out and start my own motorsport business, because I was, even when I first started with Toyota, that's where I was doing it out of because, you know, that was our business.
21:27
But in the end, I actually gave them my share because they'd carried me for so long for me to get.
21:34
And then I started up my own business.
21:36
Yeah.
21:37
Somewhere here, we'll go back to your point about Star Search.
21:41
Paint that picture for people.
21:43
This is pre-internet.
21:45
What are we talking?
21:46
Was it a thing in the newspaper, 25 words or less?
21:49
How did the entry work and what was the offering for this competition?
21:53
Look, what they did is they picked people from all forms of motorsport.
21:56
Like there was Michael Dowson who ended up doing Baffist, who was a legendly motorcycle racer who'd raced all over the world.
22:05
And there's some amazing stories with him.
22:07
Because when we finally got picked and went to Baffist, I was a young guy doing as I was told.
22:14
And Michael Dowson had raced all around the world.
22:17
And he was saying, don't you listen to them, you.
22:19
There's a photo of him over our shoulder here, which I want to get to.
22:21
So Baffist, yeah.
22:22
Yeah.
22:23
So they pick people from various forms of motorsports.
22:27
So there was a circuit racer, a motocross rider, a Michael Bailey, was it?
22:34
A boat racer?
22:35
Could it be?
22:36
Okay.
22:36
So there's a pool of you.
22:37
There was a pool of people.
22:39
And what we did is went and did some practice races to get our licences and
22:46
um i'm pretty sure i already had my i'd already got my circuit racing license um uh but i'm not sure i think i've had maybe one or two signatures or whatever left to get off my bees okay and then so we went and did various races in mr2s and then we got around to the australian touring car championship in a corolla and then they picked out two people from that to go to baffist and that ended up being michael dowson and myself
23:10
Amazing.
23:11
So tell me about this picture over my shoulder here.
23:13
So for people that are listening, Gary Wilkinson, legendary Channel 7 announcer and ran the podium for many years at the Mountain is in between the pair of you there.
23:25
That's a pretty special moment.
23:27
He's a good mate of our buddy, Darryl Beatty's, as well.
23:30
What was he like to work with?
23:31
And that was a special day for you guys, wasn't it?
23:33
Yeah, as in Michael Dalston.
23:35
Yeah, yeah.
23:35
Yeah, he was incredible to work with.
23:38
It was a class win for you guys too, wasn't it?
23:39
Yeah, we actually went to Baffers.
23:41
We won our class.
23:43
Were you in a Corolla sprinter?
23:44
What was it?
23:45
We were in a front-wheel drive Corolla.
23:46
Mm-hmm.
23:47
And I'd done my round at Winton and probably, I don't know, if it was fortunate for me, I think I was probably fine whether it was wet or dry, but it rained, poured rain at Winton, so I went incredibly well.
24:02
And then Michael Dowson did his round, I'm pretty sure, at Lakeside from memory, and he did very well there.
24:07
So we ended up at Bathurst and he was very quick.
24:13
We both...
24:14
drove very well and were good and, you know, but they gave us, you know, that we had a team meeting and briefing beforehand and they, and it was interesting because the Star Search competition all originated out of Sydney.
24:30
The race team was run out of Toyota in Melbourne.
24:33
So there was probably a little bit of, you know,
24:36
Sydney versus Melbourne from that perspective internally in the team because they had the PR people in Sydney telling them they're going to get these two geese in, as in Michael Dowsman and myself.
24:49
And so they said that we...
24:54
were to drive around and do our job and finish as a PR thing and all that sort of stuff.
24:58
And, you know, I'm probably at the time, you know, I'm young, naive.
25:03
I'm probably accepting, yeah, that's what they want us to do or whatever.
25:07
And so when we walked out of there, Michael Dowston said, everything they told you and they're ignored.
25:12
He said, we're here to win.
25:14
Awesome.
25:15
And, you know, we're going to drive around.
25:19
you know, flat out and see if we can win this.
25:22
And I'm thinking, Jesus, that's not what I told us to do.
25:24
But, you know, and so Michael Dowson started the race and he went,
25:30
Exactly as he said, hell for lever.
25:33
And I think he might have, because in the other car was John Faulkner and Peter McKay.
25:38
You'll know both of them.
25:39
Yep, journalist.
25:39
Yeah, and incredibly great people.
25:44
And John Faulkner was incredibly good to me throughout that whole star searching and teaching me.
25:50
I think he got annoyed with how many questions I asked, but he was always obliging and helpful.
25:54
Yeah.
25:55
So Michael Dowson came in and I can't remember whether we were just behind or whether we were leading.
26:01
And so the whole time he's out there going around faster and what they wanted him to, they're coming over to me, don't you do what he's doing.
26:09
He's going to break the car.
26:10
He's not doing as he's told.
26:13
He's this, he's that.
26:14
And I'm sort of going, yeah.
26:15
That's quite a lot of pressure for a young bloke.
26:16
It's quite a lot of pressure for a young guy.
26:18
So I'm thinking, geez, what do I do here?
26:20
So then I hop in the car.
26:22
Dowson straps me in.
26:24
He gets in the door.
26:27
I don't care what they... My lads swear I'm here.
26:29
Of course you are.
26:30
Of course you are.
26:30
I don't care what they fucking told you.
26:32
You just get out there and hold this thing flat.
26:35
So he knew they were...
26:35
So he knew.
26:37
As I say, he'd raced all over the world.
26:39
He was a professional motorbike racer.
26:42
He knew what was going on.
26:43
And when I look now, he was exactly right.
26:45
And so then he straps me in.
26:48
And I'm thinking, far out.
26:50
And as...
26:53
I go to go, he pulls my radio lead out.
26:56
So they can't talk to you?
26:57
So they can't talk to me.
26:58
So I'm going up pit row.
27:01
I remember my left leg because those things, you had to slip the clutch a lot.
27:06
The first gear was so tall to take off in them.
27:09
You really had to slip the clutch.
27:11
Slightly uphill at Baffers.
27:13
So I'm going up there.
27:14
I remember my left leg shaking.
27:16
And so then I just went out there and just drove and, you know,
27:22
And then I remember Peter McKay was out there, I remember passing them and pulling away and, you know, like and apparently they were holding out pit boards to say slow down and various other things and, yeah, we just blasted away.
27:39
And, you know, I ended up driving the last stint but I had a radio at this stage because on the last stint they'd, because we were a lap ahead then.
27:50
But then they wanted a formation finish and so the other car.
27:54
And I remember like Dowson obviously really got to me because I remember like waiting for John Faulkner, but I was so scared to be waiting.
28:04
I just let him catch, you know, like he was behind me coming down to the last corner, but I'm keeping him like three car lengths behind and then I just backed off.
28:15
For the shot, for the picture.
28:16
For the shot, but he wasn't really close enough and they were a bit unhappy with that.
28:20
But they told me he was a lap behind.
28:24
But at that stage, after what Dowson had been through, I wasn't having any of that.
28:29
So at that stage, I was with Dowson and we were going to win.
28:34
Very cool guy to have in your corner.
28:36
Guy with great character too.
28:39
At about this point, so you've had success in the search for a champion.
28:43
There's this scenario at Bathurst.
28:45
It looks like the direction is going more touring car, if anything, and I think there was an offer, a full-time offer, to go touring car racing, and it sort of faltered or went away or something, and it –
29:00
All of a sudden you're in this scenario where you've won the search for a champion and 12 months on it looks like it might come to nought almost, doesn't it?
29:07
Yes.
29:07
It was interesting because I also, in 1986, the year that I did incredibly well in the Alpine, it was the day that Brock swapped over from the Commodores to the BMWs and he actually invited a whole lot of young people down
29:24
to have a drive.
29:25
Did you drive one?
29:26
And I drove the Commodore at Calder.
29:28
Fantastic.
29:29
So I think there was 18 of us and I still remember it so clearly.
29:34
A few things.
29:36
One, Dave Johnson, my navigator, which we'll get to at some stage, he was the first person that probably told me, you need to promote yourself, you need to do this.
29:45
So he'd written to all the touring car teams and told them about me and all this sort of stuff.
29:50
Wow.
29:51
So he was a huge, amazing driver.
29:55
And then so I got invited down to that drive and, you know, Brock was there.
30:02
I, at the time, had one of those two-piece fast man driving suits.
30:09
I borrowed my helmet off Rick because he's looked better than mine for the day because I thought I should look better, which was a lime green helmet with an orange peak open face and...
30:21
And I remember getting there and there's all these guys there, all circuit racing people there in simps and driving.
30:26
Hollywood.
30:27
You know, they look like Hollywood.
30:29
And it was so amazing because Brock took me around and all, because he took you for a lap first.
30:36
Uh huh.
30:37
And so... What are you in here?
30:39
You're in like... VL.
30:40
VL or VK?
30:42
VK.
30:43
Anyway, mobile.
30:44
Mobile backing.
30:45
Yeah.
30:46
And it's at Calder.
30:48
So I remember when he went around, you know, the kink in the back straight, he held a flat through, which was, and he did it relatively easy.
30:56
But he was saying to me all the way, he was, you know, you tell he was quite nervous because I was a rally person, not a circuit racing person.
31:04
And unbeknownst to him, I'd done a lot of hill climbs.
31:06
I'd done a lot of tarmac stuff.
31:08
So I knew both.
31:10
Pretty well and, you know, so we're there and all these people are pointing at me because who's this goose in the open face helmet that doesn't even dress properly?
31:22
But I remember Bev Brock just really took me under her wing because she's the nurturing type and here you've got the ugly duckling over there and she's sort of going, this poor kid.
31:32
Yeah.
31:33
And so then it was interesting because I had done an apprenticeship.
31:40
I worked on all my own cars.
31:43
So the thing had a flat battery for a start.
31:46
So they would tell you, because I went fairly late, I think they thought I'd get the circuit racers out before the rally guy binned it on them.
31:54
So...
31:56
So I watch these guys and they stall it, then they'd have to go up with a jump pack and, you know, some of them stall it five times getting out of the pits and then I'm watching and in the kink up the back straight, no one's holding it flat and, you know, so I'm just sort of watching all this stuff and then it's my turn to hop in and then...
32:15
So then I go out, didn't stall it because I made sure of that.
32:19
And, you know, I don't think I held it flat on the back straight on the first lap, but on the second lap I definitely did.
32:26
And then I came in and I just remember hopping out and Bev Brock just...
32:31
Like I walked around, she just hugged me and said that was amazing and that was great and whatever.
32:36
And then they actually kept me back afterwards to drive so everyone else went home and then they kept me back afterwards and I did another 20 laps or whatever and I still remember...
32:48
When they said, you know, I'm going around and they said, yeah, that's enough, come in.
32:54
So I went down the bottom corner of a calder there on my cool-down lap and just hung a big slide all the way around it.
33:01
Then I came in and Brock was laughing.
33:03
He goes...
33:04
I wondered when that would happen.
33:06
He said, yeah, you can take him away from rallying but you can't.
33:10
Can't get the rallying out of him.
33:11
Yeah, that was a lot of laughter.
33:13
Yeah, and it's amazing because I always had such an incredibly good relationship with Brock after that.
33:19
Like whenever I was at the Circa Racing event doing Baffers or whatever, he would always come and talk to me and see how it's going and if there was anything that I wanted to know and all that.
33:28
Yeah, so, you know, and then later in life when, you know, he did Targa, he came and.
33:34
got notes off Coral and I and all that sort of stuff.
33:37
So, yeah, there was something that I suppose very special and that I cherish.
33:43
I'm glad you've shared that.
33:44
That's a great, great story.
33:45
Come back to the importance of co-drivers.
33:50
You talked about how significant one of them was there a moment ago.
33:54
Actually, I think we got sidetracked there.
33:56
We were talking about...
34:00
signing me up to be a touring car driver which actually Titor spoke to me and were going to send me a contract and everything So who was that that was going to be could you say the team that you were Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was Titor Team Australia so that was in the Corollas, the team was run by Tony Nervani out of Melbourne and so they were going to sign me up to be one of the touring car drivers which was going to be with John Faulkner but then but then they the team folded and
34:29
That was that.
34:29
Crazy.
34:30
We'll come to co-drivers in a second because where you've brought us to now is almost this sliding doors moment, I think, because had that happened and, you know, the touring car thing being fine, it might have taken you a totally different direction in your career.
34:46
You're thinking this is potentially all over or I'm going to be going back to doing hard yards myself again potentially –
34:54
And then Mike Breen, who was a very significant figure, very passionate about motorsport within the Toyota framework.
35:01
He's retired from there now.
35:03
But what does he do?
35:04
He picks up the phone and says, from what I can gather, we've got this cool new car coming, a Celica.
35:10
We're thinking about doing some rallying and we would like you involved.
35:13
Is that how it went?
35:14
What happened?
35:15
Yeah.
35:16
The initial one, when I got the call about the Star Search competition, Mike Breen was the one that rang me and he said, hi, it's Mike.
35:21
Oh, I'm at Beetle Exchange.
35:23
Yeah.
35:24
I crawled out from under a Volkswagen to answer the phone and he goes, it's Mike Breen from Toyota Australia.
35:30
He went running this Star Search competition and we'd like you to be part of it.
35:35
At the moment, back then, crazy calls were everywhere and rife in this country and I thought it was a crazy call.
35:43
I was almost about to say, yeah.
35:46
And so that call happened.
35:49
And then I'm thinking, you know, what was that?
35:52
Was that a crazy call?
35:53
So I'm going.
35:54
And then there was months...
35:56
that I heard nothing.
35:57
So I just had forgotten about it and thought it was a crazy call.
36:00
Then he rang up a couple of months later and said, oh, we want you to do a practice round at Orton Park this weekend and MR2, can you get down there?
36:09
Amazing.
36:10
Yeah, so...
36:12
He would ultimately help in steering you.
36:17
This is why I used the sliding doors analogy before, in a direction that you really loved anyway.
36:21
It's not that you didn't enjoy the touring car racing or the...
36:24
success you enjoyed at Bathurst there and so on, they're very special moments, but the pure love beneath it all was still rallying and this was going to start an amazing chapter with them, wasn't it?
36:34
So, yeah, the touring car thing all fell in a hole and then he rang and said, we're bringing these cars into the country, the Sleeker ST185s, apparently they rally them overseas.
36:45
Would you be interested in rallying one of those?
36:49
It took me about a nanosecond to think about that one and answer it.
36:53
And, you know, when you're here and listening to this, you think, oh, yeah, that's great.
36:58
You know, he's been rung by a manufacturer and they've got these factory rally cars and blah, blah, blah.
37:03
But, you know, and this is the thing that's so amazing about this journey is Mike was an amazing guy, you know, who was the PR manager at Toyota for...
37:15
30 something years who I dealt with for most of them.
37:17
Just a great human being too.
37:18
Just a great, great guy to deal with.
37:20
You could have ring up and have family chats.
37:24
Yo, like just an amazing person.
37:26
But their idea of going rallying was here's a car and use it in rallies for the year then give it back.
37:32
Because they didn't have...
37:35
So the deal was, here's a 185 sleeker to use and $30,000.
37:40
And $30,000 wasn't enough to do it, but we then...
37:46
prepared this car at Beetle Exchange, or initially it was in Peter Reynolds who worked for me for very many years.
37:54
It was in his garage at home, so we used to just go around there at night and weekends and work on it.
38:00
And I remember Peter Evans from Toyota, who I'm sure you've met plenty of times over the years, he came to have a look one day and we'd cut a hole in the roof for a roof vent and he was shocked that he wouldn't be able to go back to a road car.
38:15
Sorry.
38:16
Sorry.
38:16
If you want it to be a rally car, it's a rally car.
38:29
Neil's partnership with Toyota is the envy of many in the sport, but as Coral Taylor explained in her episode with Rusty, the secret to its longevity goes well beyond their commercial agreement.
38:40
you know, a great relationship with them and total loyalty to them for so long.
38:45
But I also think that Neil's one of those guys, you know, a lot of people come into motorsport and might burn sponsors, you know, you want too much or you ask too much or you don't deliver what you say.
38:56
I think Neil's always been very honest and fair and done so much for them in so many ways.
39:04
Lots of little things around the edges that people don't see.
39:09
Hear untold stories from Neil's co-driver Coral Taylor, you can find her episode in the Garage Library.
39:15
Like Rusty, Coral isn't much good on a dirt bike either, now back to the person who gave him the intel on that, Neil Bates.
39:24
It's kind of a team of mates, family, probably pre-internet, so it's not like you can go, oh, this is what they're doing at TTE, or this is what they're doing at... How much sort of pioneering were you doing?
39:35
And are you...
39:36
This is a dual question here.
39:38
You're prepping car, but are you also learning at this point to knock on doors, to ultimately get to a Caltex or a Havillain or, you know, like...
39:45
How are you going with that learning?
39:48
That comes back at that stage to Dave Jorgensen, who was my co-driver.
39:53
I really struggled to get co-drivers initially because no one wanted to navigate for me.
39:56
You were a wild child.
39:57
A wild child.
39:58
But my crash rate for railing was incredibly low.
40:02
Like I...
40:03
But you were fast.
40:04
I was incredibly fast.
40:05
People just thought I was too fast for the experience and that I was an accident waiting for somewhere to happen, which never turned out to be the case.
40:13
But Dave Jorgerson ended up navigating for me.
40:16
And as I say, he was someone that he wrote to the touring car teams, told them about me.
40:22
What was he doing here?
40:23
Like typewriter stuff.
40:24
You know, hey, this is a guy.
40:25
Typewriter and post them.
40:27
Amazing.
40:27
Yeah, he made up press kit type things, which was incredible.
40:35
And he actually...
40:40
left Canberra, went to the Gold Coast and was going to make a big in property up there and then we could go and do the World Rally Championship and whatever but that didn't turn out so well.
40:53
Sadly, like for a guy, he just had the world's best intentions and I think he spent a bit too much time at the casino and he was going to win big there but that didn't quite work out either.
41:04
But, you know, an amazing guy that helped me so much
41:10
Yeah, he was navigating for me in the 86 Alpine.
41:14
And I didn't know until afterwards they told me that at some services there he was sitting around next to our ute sort of regrouping himself and they were talking him into getting back in, which...
41:26
which I didn't realise at the time.
41:28
Well done for getting back in.
41:29
Yeah.
41:30
For me, it just all seemed normal.
41:32
So he's helping with the marketing material, if you like, the early press-type things to get you noticed.
41:39
Mike's giving you the car.
41:42
They're worried about you putting a hole in the roof, but you're pioneering the build on these things.
41:46
This is a couple of blokes, mates around Canberra trying to build something that would be good enough to win the Australian Championship.
41:53
Yeah.
41:53
Yep, 100%.
41:54
That's exactly how it is.
41:56
And, you know, back then, you know, rally cars were mostly standard, I suppose.
42:01
And, you know...
42:05
And we went to Tassie on that first round.
42:07
We finished second beyond George Fury.
42:09
So we obviously did a reasonably good job.
42:12
But as I say, it was just a few mates that had gone through the Daston 1600 journey and all that.
42:18
And we were around at Pete's place working on the car at night and weekends and putting it together.
42:24
And then headed off down to Tassie for the first rally, which...
42:30
Yeah, which I remember being on the Spirit and throwing up and I'm not sure whether that was...
42:35
I've been on the Spirit a lot of times since and not throwing up, so I'm not sure whether it was seasick or nerves or whatever because, you know, all of a sudden you're...
42:43
Playing in the big game.
42:44
You're playing in the big game and, yeah, it was...
42:47
But I'd also had my first foray into sponsorship was Stu Wilkins from Triple S Automotive in Sydney, now Stu Wilkins Rallying.
42:58
And he was a huge part of my success in Daston 1600 days because he... That was a great business too, mate, wasn't it?
43:05
Yeah, he saw some potential in me and sponsored me and helped me and lent me cars.
43:10
He lent me a sleeker that I did the Bega ARC round in, rear-wheel drive sleeker, which we were...
43:16
We were coming second out right behind David Eadie in a Mazda 323 and in front of the Murray Coots and Greg Kars and all those people in four-wheel drive cars.
43:27
And the reason I mention that, I remember standing at the results on Saturday night.
43:34
There was still Sunday to go, which were the Shire stages, and Greg Karr was looking at the board and there's my times, and he said, oh, that's not possible for a two-wheel drive car.
43:47
And I sort of, I suppose I was probably a little bit taken back about it, but probably a little bit proud as well.
43:53
At the same time.
43:54
Well, there they are.
43:55
Yeah, that's the results.
43:57
And then, unfortunately, on the last day, I was still coming second beyond David Eadie and the engine expired.
44:06
Sugar.
44:07
This is in a changing phase for the sport in the sense that four-wheel drive rally cars are newer to the Australian scene, if you like.
44:21
You've come out of a rear-wheel drive background, amazing sort of Datsun 1600s, probably with twin Webbers that sounded amazing and so on.
44:29
What was the adaption like to rallying a four-wheel drive car and what were the learnings for you in all of that?
44:37
The first time I drove a four-wheel drive car was once again a car that Shue Wilkins loaned to me, which was a Subaru RS Turbo.
44:44
Wow.
44:44
And that was in the 1989, I think, a Sander Rally.
44:50
Okay.
44:52
And that...
44:54
But by that stage, VR4 Glance had come out and, you know, there was better cars than the RX Turbo.
45:01
But I ran in that event, finished fourth outright and the first, I think the next RX Turbo was Peter Clark and Peter Glenny.
45:13
And I think they were like seven minutes behind me or something.
45:15
So it was an incredibly good result.
45:19
But I still remember the first time I drove it, I came around a few corners and still had a bit of lock on and then sort of wobbled up the road because you're coming around and you put the lock on for the slide and then, you know, boot it and then you, you know, it's heading towards the outside of the corner and you think, shit, I better straighten it up.
45:37
You know, you forget that, you know, it's gone exactly where the front wheels are pointing.
45:42
At what point?
45:43
Did you become aware that Coral Taylor, she was perhaps available as a co-driver or maybe there was a change in direction for you?
45:51
What did you first... How did you do that kind of homework and how did she come to be a part of this operation?
45:56
Because she's another long-termer as a part of all this, isn't she?
45:59
Yeah, so I did the first couple of years... Well, I did the first year with Toyota, with Dave Jorgensen navigating, and then the second year...
46:13
Of that, Toyota didn't actually put in anything to the rallying.
46:16
So you were an owner-driver?
46:17
I was an owner-driver in 91.
46:20
What was that like?
46:22
Hard, but just what we did.
46:24
And, yeah, we prepared the car at Beetle Exchange and Pete's Garage and whatever and went away to the rallies and did it.
46:32
So they'd let you still run the car or keep the car, but you were on your own running it?
46:36
Yeah, there was no money.
46:38
that year for whatever reason they were in whatever their marketing stuff was or budgets or whatever but we still went and rallied and then it was interesting because the next year we got a budget and they said this guy has gone and done it when we haven't even helped him so they said
46:56
So that commitment, showing that commitment, sent a big message kind of thing, yeah.
47:01
Yeah, for sure.
47:04
So I did the first year with Dave Johnson, the second year with a guy by the name of Mike Taylor, who was a local… Co-driver.
47:13
Co-driver.
47:13
Co-driver.
47:15
And then in…
47:19
That was 1991.
47:21
Then 92, I did it with Rod Horsley.
47:23
So you can see a pattern of new co-drivers each year.
47:26
And then Murray was running with Mazda with Coral co-driving.
47:29
That's right, Murray.
47:30
Murray Coot.
47:31
And then...
47:33
The Mazda thing was coming to an end.
47:36
Did he half direct her your way?
47:39
Is that kind of what happened?
47:40
Yeah, so I probably need a new co-driver and everyone that co-drolled for me was fantastic for their various reasons.
47:51
But, you know, and it wasn't until I got Coral I realised how amazing she was and also how amazing...
47:59
her organisation skills and how calm and, you know, because Rod Horsley was a great co-driver but he'd be sitting at the start control, you know, like really taking in the big ones and I'm thinking is there something about to happen I'm not aware of here?
48:15
You know, like, you know, but as I say, very good co-driver but it was an,
48:21
An intensity about it or something, wasn't it?
48:22
An intensity about it, whereas, you know, for Coral, you almost need to check for a pulse at the start of the stage to make sure she's awake and whatever, like she's so calm and so happy in that environment.
48:34
And so Murray had said to me...
48:37
you know you should get Coral and and and I asked her initially she said no because she was dreaming that the Mazda team would somehow resurrect itself and keep going but then it became clear that wasn't and and Coral came to navigate and um yeah you know the
48:54
As they say, the rest is history.
48:55
But, you know, as I say, the things there that were amazing, one, she was incredibly good as a co-driver and, you know, never, never, you know, makes mistakes, just incredibly calm.
49:09
But also, you know, we were...
49:11
group of blokes going rallying, you know, trying to work out where we need to go and where we need to be and all of a sudden we've got someone that plans all that and gives us maps and tells us where to be and, you know, like it just made such a difference to the whole thing to have...
49:27
what was previously chaos getting around to organise chaos getting around.
49:33
Because it is this beautiful almost language of pace noting, co-drivers have this skill of being able to paint a picture for you of what is coming up on the road.
49:45
You commit, you entrust that.
49:48
So if it's flat over crest, it's flat over crest and so on.
49:52
Correct.
49:53
Right six-line crest, go in.
49:56
Into left five and a half.
49:58
50.
50:04
Flat small crest.
50:06
Into left five and a half.
50:07
Off crest.
50:08
Stay in.
50:10
The system you guys use, am I right in saying it's one to six, but with halves?
50:14
Is that what you've used along the way?
50:15
Oh, correct.
50:16
Yeah.
50:16
Just explain that.
50:17
So if you looked at a clock face and you take 12 o'clock straight ahead, so if you take one o'clock, that's a hairpin corner because it's almost back on itself and two, three would be a 90-degree corner, four, five, six, and six is...
50:40
a flat corner almost straight.
50:42
So but then you soon realise that you probably need...
50:47
you know, to define that a little bit better because, you know, the difference between a five and a six becomes a little bit much.
50:53
And, you know, some people use maybes, we use halves.
50:59
You know, and everyone in, you know, pace noting, it really annoys me when you have certain people say, oh, you have to use this system or you have to use that system.
51:09
Well, you do what's for you, don't you?
51:10
You do what's for you.
51:11
There's no system that's right.
51:13
There's no system that's wrong.
51:15
Like, you know,
51:16
Simon Evans used to use a one-to-four system.
51:20
A four was his hairpin and a one was flat out.
51:23
So I was all backwards and I could never have driven on his notes and vice versa.
51:30
But we both...
51:32
did the job incredibly well.
51:33
And, you know, so you look at the World Rally Championship, there's a whole lot of people with different systems.
51:38
But essentially you call every single corner, every single crest.
51:42
So, you know, if we described a bit of road, it would be, you know, flat crest, 200, caution, right to narrow, into left three opens, into...
51:55
Right 5, easy, which is another thing.
51:59
I use easy, so it's an easy corner.
52:01
Other people use easy, so take it easy.
52:03
Ah, right.
52:04
So it's a totally...
52:06
The commentary actually is defined differently depending on the driver.
52:08
Correct.
52:09
Right, right.
52:10
So, yeah, so that's essentially what that is.
52:14
And I had done page notes before, but probably...
52:17
Were you good at it or not?
52:19
I was, you know, I had done well in those events, so you couldn't say I was bad at it, but Coral certainly helped me tidy that side of it up and make it better.
52:28
And you gelled pretty quickly in that sense?
52:31
Yeah, the first rally we did was...
52:34
Rally Victoria in 1993 and that was when Possum first came with a ProDrive WRX and you've got to remember our car then was still a home built ST185 it had a lock centre diff that we'd welded up it had a you know close ratio fire speed synchro gearbox and you know we'd made a front diff for it ourselves and fitted to it and
53:00
So, and we were leading that rally against Possum.
53:03
And, you know, it's probably, for Coral and I, it's probably one of our best memories in the rally, you know, because Possum had come over in the pro drive.
53:12
WRC, Subaru, and everyone thought that they was going to wipe the floor, and we're three quarters of the way through day one, and we're still winning.
53:22
And I remember driving down because the service was actually just on a road because it was roadside service back then, and we're driving through all the service crews, and they're all out there standing clapping.
53:33
Fantastic.
53:39
Love that stuff.
53:40
When the people in the game recognise a really significant moment.
53:45
That is the end of part one of my podcast with Australian Rally Champion Neil Bates.
53:50
Now, the good news, when we recorded, the time seemed to sail by and I had enough audio when we wrapped up for a three-parter.
53:59
They are all loaded up and ready for you to enjoy when you've got the time.
54:03
There is some fantastic conversation in there on the late great Possum Bourne, the awesome Escort beating RA40 Celica that he built, and why they went for that particular chassis.
54:15
Supercars drives, including some important detail on one that finished very differently to how it may have looked on TV.
54:23
Plus, mentoring Molly Taylor and how he dealt with his sons when they wanted to follow in Dad's footsteps.
54:30
Plus, the amazing team at Neil Bates Motorsport.