Latest / The Price of Music / Looking ahead to 2026: Live music's pivotal year; More reunion tours; How influential is the UK record industry now?; And Oasis: Knebworth in 2026 – or 2027?

Transcript

Looking ahead to 2026: Live music's pivotal year; More reunion tours; How influential is the UK record industry now?; And Oasis: Knebworth in 2026 – or 2027? · The Price of Music

• 0:02
  Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, brought to you by
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  Music Ally, the show that both looks at the finances of the
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  music industry while also bringing you stories and
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  comments about the past week in the pop business.
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  I'm Steve Lamac, he's Stuart Dredge if you want an easy guide
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  to what's going on in the music industry and how it all works.
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  And then here we are. A happy new year, everybody.
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  We hope you're in a decent place come the start of the new year.
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  And thank you very much for listening.
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  We have got a lot planned for the coming weeks responding to
• 0:31
  some of the feedback you sent us.
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  So thank you to everyone who's been in touch.
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  But this week, because the music biz, well, basically went on a
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  holiday about 2 1/2 weeks ago and is only just now returning
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  to its desk this week, we thought it might be an
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  opportunity to look ahead at some of the matters which we
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  think will arise this year. What are going to be the big
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  stories and themes of 2026? We both didn't we?
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  We both wrote down some ideas and I think we're pretty much in
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  agreement over what some of the key issues will be.
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  So we've narrowed them down to 3 or 4 main headlines.
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  Where shall we? I guess we have to start with
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  AI. Do we?
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  I mean, I know some of you might already be rolling your eyes
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  thinking I'm not AI again, but I am, as you probably know
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  increasingly of the opinion that, you know, for all the
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  helpful things AI can do, it also I think carries, you know,
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  it carries a risk of making things much worse for the music
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  industry and potentially musicians as well.
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  I don't know what what are you thinking Stuart, as we look down
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  the Barrow of the next 12 months, where are we up to?
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  What might happen this year? Yeah, God, it's going to be.
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  It's weird because it was the big story last year.
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  I think it's going to carry on this year like you say.
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  I mean, I think that one thing on my mind is that this is,
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  we've seen some actual licensing deals, haven't we?
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  We've talked about them in recent months that some labels
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  have done some deals with AI company since the first time
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  that's happened, which means like the bottom line for artists
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  is in theory if a musical AI is being trained on your stuff now
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  you will get paid. But we don't know how much
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  you'll get paid or how it'll be calculated or what, right?
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  You'll have to say no thanks, I don't want to be part of this,
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  even if I'm getting paid. Those are the conversations that
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  are happening now between labels and artists and publishers and
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  songwriters talking about, well, this is how this deal will work.
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  This is how we'll get paid. But it's a kind of little
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  positive spot to start the year that this principle of if you're
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  an AI company training your model on people's music, humans
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  music, they should get paid for it.
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  And I think we've found our way to this point where pretty much
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  all the big companies in that space are trying to do licensing
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  deals rather than just saying we don't need to do that.
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  We can just take it all. So that's the kind of that's my
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  slight optimism before we get into the negative stuff.
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  Well, I was going to say though, those conversations, who should
• 2:54
  be involved? Because does it feel to you as
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  if the the record industry, the big, certainly the big three
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  major labels are having the conversations with the AI
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  companies, but are they involving managers or artists or
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  anyone else down the line who will be directly affected by
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  this? I mean, as I understand it, the
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  deals have been signed and now the conversations are happening
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  with with the kind of the musicians and their
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  representatives, which I kind of, I'm kind of sympathetic to
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  how that has to happen because I think there there was an urgency
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  to try and get deals done quickly, I suppose, try and get
• 3:34
  these companies to the table and say you have to pay for music.
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  And but yeah, it just means there's so many unknowns.
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  And I think a lot of the the the bodies representing managers and
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  artists have been saying, look, we here are our concerns about
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  these deals because we don't, we simply don't know what's going
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  to happen. So I don't think it's at the
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  major levels are are trying not to discuss it with the artist.
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  I think that that's what's going to happen.
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  That's the first part of this year is like, right, we've got
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  this agreement with these companies.
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  This is what we see it means. And there is going to be a
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  process because I think, and again, this is this is all up in
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  the air. But as I understand it, the
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  noises coming out of the announcement of these deals have
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  been that artists will have the right and songwriters will have
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  the right to say we don't want to take part in this.
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  That has been the general thing. But how that process works is
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  just completely unknown. And it it could be the big
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  complication because I mean, think about songwriting, for
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  example, Think about a song that's had maybe four or five
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  songwriters, probably more in, in areas like pop and those
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  songwriters assigned to different publishers.
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  So if one of those songwriters says, I don't want to have my
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  work used to train an AI, does that mean that song can't be
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  used and all the according to it?
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  Like it could get very, very complicated in terms of actually
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  what music can be used. But it's important, like it's
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  important that every songwriter, an artist does get to say,
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  actually, I don't, I'm not comfortable with this.
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  So that's the real I think what's going to happen is it's
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  not just a case of the labels and the publishers saying this
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  is what's happening. It's going to have to be them
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  really convincing musicians saying, well, This is why we
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  think this is a good thing to do.
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  This is why you believe it is in your best interests.
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  And This is why we want you to say yes to it.
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  Like it's not a case of saying, here's the deal, it's done,
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  accept it. There's going to have to be a
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  real process of, I guess, of convincing and persuading.
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  I understand that. I just wonder how easy it will
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  be to backfit the deal, particularly when it comes to
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  the finances of it. If you've agreed, a certain
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  percentage of money will be, you know, will come from the people
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  who are training the software on an artist's music site.
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  So you get X amount of money. But if that money is not enough
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  for the artist or the artist thinks, actually hang on a
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  second, we're worth more than that, we should have a higher
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  percentage of the royalties from this AI track then.
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  Well, we can't do it because we've already signed the deal
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  for this. Do you see what I mean?
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  Well, that's it, yeah. And it's like it's almost, you
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  start breaking it down because there's three things where
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  you're like, if an AI company is doing a deal with a big record
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  label, they might be giving them a big chunk of money, which is
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  kind of just here's the money for the license, here's the
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  money to use your stuff. They might be giving them equity
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  in the company. So a company like Suno, which is
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  worth hundreds of millions of dollars, might give a label, you
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  know, one percent, 2%, whatever it is with the company.
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  So the label then has shares in this company that may at some
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  point be sold or go public and they may be a little money.
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  So there's a question there of, OK, how will that be shared with
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  artists and songwriters? And then the really complicated
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  thing, which is the OK, what seems to be happening is these
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  deals involve the the AI companies building new models
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  and new services and launching them this year.
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  So again, they're almost saying we can't really backfit the
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  finances to what we've had already, but we're going to
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  build something new. And then that's where you'll be
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  like, OK, so how if I go and make an AI song on this new
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  service and it's nought .5% Ed Sheeran 2%, Beyoncé 1%, you
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  know, little granddad, like how do they get paid for that?
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  And that's again, that's going to be the thing that we don't
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  know yet because it hasn't been set out.
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  But, but those are the three ways money will be coming into
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  the music industry from these companies.
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  And I think in all three, you're right, the managers bodies and
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  the artists bodies are saying we want to understand exactly
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  what's being paid, how it's being calculated.
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  And then we can decide whether we think that's fair and whether
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  we want to go with it. So I mean, there's, I mean,
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  there's also the point, The thing, the thing I'm still
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  waiting for is for someone to tell me or assure me that the
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  money that AI companies will put into the industry through these
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  licensing deals will make up for the money that some artists will
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  effectively lose if pedestrian musical versions of what they
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  do. Basically, impersonations of
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  their music start impinging on the, you know, the real thing
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  and therefore musicians income is lost to some of the new AI
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  creators. Now what?
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  You know, because we already like we've we've already had
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  commas that we already know that there are some people who, for
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  instance, write incidental music for TV shows who are already
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  saying that they've been replaced by someone who just
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  typed in, I don't know, scary music for a tense scene in the
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  darkened room, you know, and and that's their work.
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  That's their monthly rent down the tube.
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  So, you know, as you say, I mean, my worry is that it does
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  bring us back to what you were saying about, you know, it's a
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  little bit like returning to the reaction that the industry had
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  to Napster back in the day when they didn't know what to do
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  about illegal downloads, which led them to dashing into getting
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  deals done with Apple and whoever.
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  And I don't think that was always especially beneficial to
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  the artists, if you see what I mean.
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  So it's, yeah, it's it, as you say, a lot of it, a lot of this
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  is up in the air 'cause I just, I just have this.
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  I mean, also we, we have to approach the, you know, the
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  problem that with, you know, the last count, what did we say?
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  There was something like we calculated there was something
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  like 30,000 AI aided tracks landing on streaming services
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  every day. Oh, it's.
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  Now I'm 50,000. There you go.
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  So there's 50,000 new AI tracks landing every day on the
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  streaming services. How on earth is that going to
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  help the problem which we already have, which is the new,
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  actual new human artists who've, who are already finding it
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  difficult, more difficult than ever to make a noise, to make a
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  breakthrough. How is this going to help?
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  Because there's already so much music out there, if you see what
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  I mean. And so how do we compensate
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  artists for, for that or, you know, express our support for
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  for genuine musicians? Yeah, and I think there's
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  there's two things there, isn't there?
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  Because one is the the practical.
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  What does this actually mean for musicians?
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  How, how much money are they going to lose?
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  What does it mean? Well, I think too is the and the
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  equally important is you can just imagine musicians feeling
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  ground down by all this, ground down by the anxiety.
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  Like, what is the point of releasing music if all this is
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  happening? And I suppose there's that,
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  there's that confidence thing. But on the other side, yeah.
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  I mean, I think this year is going to be a big year for the
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  streaming service to decide exactly what they're going to do
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  about all this music. And I think I break it down.
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  I've got 5 questions for this. So the first question is can
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  they detect it? Like can they tell what's fully
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  agent and what's not? And DSS as it can, it's got
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  technology to do it. Other services are working on
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  this and the AI music companies could help them because a
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  company like Suno could watermark every track put in
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  like a little put in a sort of a signature that you can't hear.
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  But that says to a system like Spotify, this is AI generated.
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  So that's solvable. So in theory, they should know
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  what's AI Gen., what isn't. The second question is, do they
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  let it on their services at all? Like do they let, do they let
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  people upload it and listen to it?
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  Right now they all do. And no one is saying at the
• 10:54
  moment we're going to ban AI music from our platform.
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  They're all saying we're going to let it on there because we
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  don't, we're not right quite at the point where we think we
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  should be banning it. The third question though, is do
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  they promote it? Do they put it in their
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  playlist? They let their algorithm
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  recommend it to people. Again, Deezer was very early in
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  saying we're not going to do that.
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  It's not in our playlists. We're not recommending it.
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  It's just on there. You can find it if you search
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  for it. Otherwise, no, that's a question
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  for Apple Music, Spotify, YouTube, all the others.
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  I think this year, the 4th question is do they pay the same
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  royalties to AI music as the human tracks or do they pay it
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  royalties at all? And that's a debate I think
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  we're going to see more of this year.
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  Like do they do they everybody say, right, Well, in the same
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  way that there was a talk about noise music a while back, like
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  white noise music and things, and they were saying, OK, we're
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  going to pay that less. We don't think it's as valuable
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  as human music. So we're going to pay it fewer
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  oddities. I think we'll see that debate
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  this year about whether fully air music.
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  And then the 5th question, which is more simple, is if something
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  is too close to real human artists, what do they do?
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  And literally, so we've, we've talked about some of the
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  examples of AI music being uploaded to Spotify that
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  pretends to be by a real artist. And the answer there is they
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  take it down quickly. They block the royalties being
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  paid. There's probably some
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  improvements they can make in detecting that quickly.
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  But that's the thing. But then the other thing we talk
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  about is when, when there's been an AI project that's like very,
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  very heavily inspired by a real artist.
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  So we talked about was it holding absence with a human
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  band and Bleeding Verse was there and it hadn't done
• 12:25
  anything that you could you could say they're trying to
• 12:27
  clone, they're pretending to be them.
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  But the human band certainly felt really put out that
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  someone, something so close to what they do without getting
• 12:34
  more listeners. And again, that for a streaming
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  service is quite a grey area. Like you could as a human, you
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  might think actually they should be promoting the human band.
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  They should be giving the human band, getting them in front of
• 12:46
  listeners. But that again, is is kind of
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  it's a very, very hard thing to have a hard and fast policy on
• 12:53
  if you are on Spotify. But those are the five questions
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  I think they're all mulling, and I think there is pressure on
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  them to come out and say exactly how they're going to treat all
• 13:01
  these things this year. So we'll see that.
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  But. I did.
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  There was one thing I wanted to talk, actually, one other thing.
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  Well, have you heard the song? You know, we talked about that
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  song I run a few months ago. It was the one with the.
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  Vocals like George well. That's a really interesting
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  thing for me this year because that said to to just kind of go
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  back quickly. This song came out called I Run.
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  The vocals sounded a lot like Georgia Smith and her label came
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  out and said this is unacceptable because they were
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  AI generated vocals. But then the artist haven re
• 13:28
  recorded it with a human singer, someone called Caitlin Harrigan.
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  And we released it again. And right now it's #10 in the UK
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  singles chart, it's had like 62 million streams on Spotify I
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  think. And it's, it's a song that it's
• 13:41
  a pop hit because it was written by humans.
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  They just use AI to do the vocals.
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  And then when that was called out, they they got a human in.
• 13:49
  So that says two things to me, which we're going to see this
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  year. A lot of it says to me that the
• 13:52
  musicians do really feel across and upset and anxious when they
• 13:57
  see AI being used to kind of clone their vocals or reaches
• 14:01
  them with them. But it also says to me that it's
• 14:03
  this new wave of like younger musicians who actually do want
• 14:06
  to use this technology and they're talented people.
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  So in this case, it's a good song from some talented
• 14:13
  songwriters who happen to use AI in a way people didn't like for
• 14:17
  the vocals. And now it's a pop hit.
• 14:19
  So I think the one thing this year I'm quite mindful of is not
• 14:22
  gravitating towards all human artists hate AI.
• 14:25
  There's a lot of sensitivity, I think, but also there are a lot
• 14:27
  of young musicians who are starting to use it in
• 14:30
  interesting ways. And there is a lot of human
• 14:32
  creativity there. But there are going to be some
• 14:34
  ethical issues around it. But it's not, it's not, it's
• 14:38
  not, it's not as simple as human artists hate AI generation
• 14:41
  technology. I think there's there's some
• 14:43
  interesting stuff being done by creative people, but I'm also
• 14:46
  sympathetic to people like Georgia Smith.
• 14:48
  They were like, hang on a minute, that's my voice you're
• 14:51
  using there. Yeah, yeah.
• 14:53
  Because I mean, yeah, it's not, it's not that far away from
• 14:56
  sampling somebody at that point, is it, If you can just
• 14:59
  essentially impersonate the voice and, you know, taking a
• 15:03
  sample and not paying for that either.
• 15:05
  But you see, that goes back to the point.
• 15:07
  How much will some artists lose? What do they gain and what do
• 15:11
  they lose in all of this? Should we talk about live music
• 15:15
  as well? I mean, there is one place where
• 15:16
  potentially, you know, artist musicians can still make money.
• 15:20
  Well, the whole live music industry can can make money.
• 15:24
  As has been seen over the past year.
• 15:26
  As you know, live music is still very successful.
• 15:29
  But once again, we always have to come back.
• 15:33
  And I know I sound like a stuck record with this, but we always
• 15:35
  have to come back to what's happening at the grassroots
• 15:39
  level. Because I mean, I know I said I
• 15:41
  had a rant about the government's new business right
• 15:44
  policy last month. But really at a point where at a
• 15:49
  point where we really need in this country, I think to be
• 15:51
  developing new talents. We might get to this later on
• 15:55
  that place on the global stage. But these are the places where
• 15:58
  new artists take their first steps.
• 15:59
  And it's and, you know, some of these places, particularly given
• 16:04
  the increased business rates which they face next year, on
• 16:07
  top of everything else we've already talked about, you know,
• 16:09
  this is energy costs and everything else in the supply
• 16:11
  chain. But, you know, they're really, I
• 16:14
  know people will probably think it's just myself and somebody
• 16:18
  like Mark David at the Music Venue Trust.
• 16:20
  I know we're always saying there's a disaster around the
• 16:22
  corner. And some people will probably
• 16:23
  think, yeah, but it never comes. They're all there, but they're
• 16:26
  not. It's it's it's already
• 16:27
  happening. Venues are continuing to shut.
• 16:30
  And as I say, you'll only get worse unless the business rate
• 16:34
  increases are revoked or changed in some way or there is tax
• 16:40
  relief given. Otherwise we're going to, we
• 16:42
  really will see some sort of, I think some kind of raft event.
• 16:46
  I was going to say a tide away, but raft of venues will be in
• 16:49
  genuine difficulty from May onwards.
• 16:53
  And I think that's going to be a story.
• 16:55
  This year, I mean, what do you do?
• 16:56
  I mean, this is, this is my question for you really, because
• 16:58
  you're much more engaged in this than I am.
• 17:00
  What do you do if you're a, a beauty venue truster?
• 17:03
  And when you, when you see a government on the one hand
• 17:05
  saying we like grassroots venues and wanting to be supported and
• 17:08
  doing some good things, and then they do a tax thing that kind of
• 17:11
  could kill loads of them. Like what is, is there anything
• 17:14
  you can do to stop that from happening?
• 17:16
  Like, like do do governments listen when you say this thing
• 17:18
  you're doing over there is really bad?
• 17:21
  Or is it a case of just they're going to say nice things and
• 17:23
  then some other part of the government would do something
• 17:26
  economic? It's difficult because the the
• 17:29
  government doesn't think is 1. I think that's the problem, you
• 17:31
  will find a lot of support for for the music industry in
• 17:35
  general and particularly. There's a lot of people within
• 17:39
  Parliament and obviously there's a Select Committee which is
• 17:42
  dedicated to grassroots venues, grassroots music.
• 17:46
  And a lot of those people are very supportive of the cause.
• 17:50
  But then, you know, it's where, where does the power lie?
• 17:54
  And you need someone on your side who is bigger than the
• 17:58
  Treasury and not much within government is bigger than the
• 18:01
  Treasury. And I think this whole, you
• 18:03
  know, the business, the business right thing was just, they just
• 18:06
  got themselves into an awful mess, I think, and didn't quite
• 18:10
  realise what the outcome was going to be.
• 18:12
  And now they're trying to find, you know, ways of probably
• 18:15
  trying to make things easier. But all you can do is continue
• 18:19
  to lobby your local MP and get, you know, build the momentum,
• 18:26
  you know, behind change and support.
• 18:30
  Obviously. I mean on the plus side, you
• 18:31
  know, we had the creation of the Live Trust last year, which is
• 18:33
  the charity that overseas the money which is coming in from
• 18:37
  the voluntary 1 LB contribution on tickets at arena and stadium
• 18:40
  gigs above 5000 capacity. And the Live Trust will not, not
• 18:46
  in the not too distant future I would say.
• 18:48
  You know, by spring, hopefully the Live Trust will have paid
• 18:51
  out the first of the money which has come in to various people
• 18:56
  like you know, who are involved in grassroots, the whole
• 18:59
  grassroots ecosystem, whether that's venues or promoters or
• 19:03
  artists. The thing though, we need Nexus,
• 19:06
  we need more artists and promoters and venues at arena
• 19:09
  and festival level to buy into the concept of the pound
• 19:12
  donation so we can keep building the funds that then can be used
• 19:15
  help smaller venues and promoters.
• 19:17
  And we, as I say, and when it comes coming back to government,
• 19:20
  we have to try and persuade them that they should be more
• 19:23
  supportive of music in in the way of tax relief in the same
• 19:28
  way that they already do for a lot of the other creative
• 19:30
  industries. There's loads of tax breaks for
• 19:32
  the film industry. So why don't we have it for the
• 19:35
  music industry or you know, festivals or small venues?
• 19:40
  I think as I say, could be a difficult year ahead.
• 19:42
  The Music Venue Trust, by the way, will launch their annual
• 19:45
  report into grassroots music venues on January the 20th.
• 19:50
  I'm sure that will provide more insight into this.
• 19:52
  You were saying though, Stuart, that you know, these problems,
• 19:55
  they aren't just in the UK. It's not just AUK based issue
• 19:58
  either. It's it's happening in other
• 20:00
  countries around the world. Yeah, and there's been some good
• 20:03
  news for you. Like I was just reading this
• 20:05
  morning about I think Italy has just launched a fund for live
• 20:07
  music, things like only about a million and a half EUR a year,
• 20:10
  but it's a start. We wrote about Germany doing a
• 20:13
  voluntary ticket levy, the same thing we're doing here.
• 20:16
  Australia has been putting in place sort of government
• 20:19
  programmes. Like it feels like this is not
• 20:20
  just a, it has been auk story for quite a while, hasn't it?
• 20:24
  Like it's been the music by Neutrus has been talking about
• 20:26
  this for years, but I feel like around the world people are
• 20:30
  looking to what's worked here, what campaigning has worked and
• 20:33
  they're kind of mirroring that. I know the music of Any Trust is
• 20:35
  doing, it's helping people in Australia do a similar thing
• 20:38
  that it does there. But also I think governments
• 20:41
  have been following this and say, OK, well I see the UK did
• 20:44
  this kind of thing, maybe we can put that scheme in place.
• 20:46
  So in a way it's positive. I feel like that this is a
• 20:48
  problem around the world, but also the programs are getting up
• 20:51
  and running because they can see what's been happening here and
• 20:54
  what's what's had a good kind of impact.
• 20:57
  I mean, yes, I was, I was going to say the other end of the
• 21:00
  scale. I've mentioned live, you know,
• 21:02
  live music as an industry has never been bigger.
• 21:06
  So expect I'm expect more mega gigs, more big gigs and tours
• 21:12
  this year, more gigs at arena level coming this year, although
• 21:17
  possibly not Oasis, just in case you've heard one of the well,
• 21:23
  this is the thing, and obviously this was a it was a big rumour
• 21:27
  at the back end of last year that Oasis were going to
• 21:29
  announce that they were playing net worth.
• 21:31
  The current consensus though, if there was a, if you had a rumour
• 21:36
  aggravate aggregator, right, which took all the rumours and
• 21:40
  then made one rumour out of it, then I think the word is Oasis
• 21:46
  to do net worth, but not in 2026, but in 2027.
• 21:51
  That's currently, that's the consensus rumour at the moment.
• 21:55
  What is based on? I don't know.
• 21:57
  Obviously not officially confirmed, but sources with
• 22:00
  Inside the music industry are whispering about Oasis at
• 22:04
  Nebworth 2027. I was looking at some of the
• 22:07
  rumours like I think so You 2 and Harry Styles have seen
• 22:11
  rumoured they, they, they hope people are thinking You 2 might
• 22:13
  get back on the road this year. I thought My Chemical Romance
• 22:17
  doing three nights at Wembley Stadium.
• 22:18
  Which they are. It's something I quietly miss
• 22:21
  that My Chemical Romance can play three nights at Wembley,
• 22:23
  which is, you know, amazing. But.
• 22:25
  Yeah. Is that reformation?
• 22:27
  Yeah, I mean, here's here's the thing though.
• 22:30
  Can they might be My Chemical Romance?
• 22:32
  Can here's here's one of my work.
• 22:34
  This market for bands reforming. I mean, it's, it's fine, but I
• 22:39
  think I think we we will reach the stage, if we haven't already
• 22:43
  yet that there is a risk that some bands or some promoters
• 22:47
  think that the bands are actually bigger than they are
• 22:50
  and that there's more interest in than than there actually is.
• 22:54
  And also the idea that we've seen more and more over the last
• 22:58
  couple of years a band coming back doing the we're doing the
• 23:01
  comeback tour. Brilliant.
• 23:03
  And then you're going to do another comeback tour, but in
• 23:06
  slightly bigger venues. And I'm not sure that that's how
• 23:08
  it works. You go and see a band who've
• 23:10
  reformed once because that's great.
• 23:13
  But are more people then going to say, Oh yeah, we should go
• 23:16
  and see the reformed bands? I mean, I don't know how many
• 23:19
  times you want to go and relive your youth with the same same
• 23:23
  band. Because I guess some bands can
• 23:25
  cycle through the album anniversaries, can't they?
• 23:27
  But a lot of bands will get to the point third or fourth album
• 23:30
  where people started to lose interest first time round.
• 23:33
  Yeah. And if you're saying we're
• 23:34
  playing the album that everyone didn't really like that much,
• 23:37
  simple. Yeah.
• 23:38
  I mean, you don't think this yet?
• 23:40
  Sorry, I was just going to say just to emphasise that point.
• 23:44
  This is nothing personal. I've got nothing against the
• 23:46
  Hives, but if you take the Hives last tour, at least two dates on
• 23:50
  that Hives tour, the last Hive store had to be downsized
• 23:54
  because they'd overestimated ticket sales.
• 23:56
  And they had to, they had to, yeah, they had to take them out
• 23:59
  of the arena and down into a more regular venue.
• 24:03
  And do you remember? Do you remember Electric 6 the
• 24:07
  bands? Yeah, I remember 222 songs, not
• 24:10
  this one. Yes, yes, the two hit wonder
• 24:13
  this electric 6 again, nothing personal, electric 6, but they
• 24:17
  took a punt on playing the Forum in London and that's about 2000
• 24:21
  capacity I think. And it was on a it was on a
• 24:24
  reasonably hefty ticket like a 35 pound £40 tickets.
• 24:29
  I tell you what I noticed there were a lot of reduced in price
• 24:33
  tickets available for that gig in the week leading up to it.
• 24:37
  So. Is it electric?
• 24:38
  I feel like this might be a myth and I don't want to get sued by
• 24:41
  electric 6 because again, I really like that.
• 24:43
  But wasn't it wasn't it them who played Glastonbury and played
• 24:45
  the big hit second in a set or something and then half the
• 24:48
  tent? I think it's a famous.
• 24:51
  I thought it was a famous. It was a year when it was gay
• 24:53
  bar wasn't it was the big the biggest hit?
• 24:55
  It was the year when that was riding high.
• 24:57
  I think they played it early in the set, which is quite a ballsy
• 24:59
  move. I mean, the other thing this
• 25:01
  year, actually, we just I just wrote about this yesterday.
• 25:03
  BTS, the K pop icons, they're back and they're going on a
• 25:08
  global tour. They've got a new album in March
• 25:09
  and global tour. And that's going to be a
• 25:11
  fascinating moment because that the last few years we've been
• 25:14
  building towards like K pop groups.
• 25:16
  We've been playing arenas, then stadiums around the world.
• 25:19
  And this BTS tour, I think it'd be like Bad Bunnies tour last
• 25:21
  year when that was like, OK, this artist who is a Latin
• 25:25
  American artist not singing in English can fill stadiums in
• 25:29
  America. U KB TSI think are going to do
• 25:32
  that. They can do a big stadium tour
• 25:35
  all over the world and that's going to be maybe 1 of this
• 25:38
  year's biggest tours alongside I think.
• 25:40
  I think Ed Sheeran's going out again, isn't he?
• 25:42
  I think the weekend. But BTS will be one of the
• 25:45
  biggest tours and that's an interesting state of where we
• 25:48
  are in this, in this. Yeah.
• 25:51
  And almost again, I mean, I don't know what ticket prices
• 25:54
  will be like for that, but you know, that top end ticket price.
• 25:57
  I don't know how how challenging that's going to become.
• 26:02
  And if you can pick and how much these bigger gigs will suck
• 26:06
  money out of the gigs further down the scale because you can
• 26:09
  only afford to go to one of these big gigs at the expense
• 26:12
  maybe of going to a couple of others.
• 26:14
  We'll we'll see. I mean, doubtless there'll be
• 26:16
  other live music related topics this year as well.
• 26:19
  There's a there's a few. I did want to, before we finish,
• 26:23
  I'll, let's talk about just the, the state of the industry in
• 26:26
  general and especially where the UK stands at the moment because
• 26:33
  it, I mean, it does, it has felt like, and certainly since
• 26:36
  probably this time last last year, it's felt like actually
• 26:40
  longer than that over the last couple of years, like we're
• 26:42
  losing some of our importance on the global stage.
• 26:46
  And no one seems to be really flapping about this apart from
• 26:49
  apart from us occasionally. But I don't know what we can
• 26:53
  read into some of the things that happened in 2025.
• 26:56
  Not least can I just mention the effective demotion of Warner's
• 26:59
  in the UK, which I hope this isn't a sign of things to come.
• 27:03
  But Warner's UK essentially, I mean, rather than being a
• 27:07
  driving UK LED voice in its own rights has.
• 27:10
  And correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, it's been
• 27:13
  restructured to the to the point where the UK office now answers
• 27:17
  directly to Warner's in America. So in effect, it's just it's a
• 27:21
  regional outpost rather than its own powerhouse.
• 27:25
  And I I wonder what are the implications of of that.
• 27:28
  What do you think? Yeah.
• 27:30
  I mean, it's one of those things where, like you have these
• 27:32
  restructuring announcements and you have to divine what happens
• 27:34
  and what it's going to mean. I mean, I suspect people from
• 27:36
  Warner would say, no, we're still signing artists, we're
• 27:38
  still breaking things. We're still, they'll be very
• 27:41
  cross about about the idea. But yeah, I think there is a
• 27:43
  sense of, well, this has been you say no one's flapping.
• 27:47
  I think people have been a bit worried about is the UK just a
• 27:50
  baby America in the eyes of some people in the industry like we
• 27:53
  did today send the big stars over here from America.
• 27:56
  Do we become that because so much is happening elsewhere in
• 27:58
  the world? And I think that's one of the
• 28:00
  things I've been tracking is that when you look at who the
• 28:02
  major labels have been buying and investing in, it's in places
• 28:05
  like India and Africa and Southeast Asia and Latin
• 28:07
  America. That's where they're, they're
• 28:09
  putting a lot of their their expansion energy at the moment.
• 28:13
  And I wonder if that does mean does does encourage you to
• 28:16
  retrench a bit in markets like the UK where you can say, well,
• 28:19
  it's the same big stars in the US are big in the UK, so we
• 28:23
  might as well have it all together.
• 28:26
  So I don't know. I mean, in some ways, like the
• 28:30
  UK has been really, I'm not fortunate.
• 28:33
  It's the wrong word. It's hard one.
• 28:34
  But like in the history of recorded music, the UK has been
• 28:37
  one of the key places for exporting music, creating stars.
• 28:41
  I think we, we're used to that, aren't we?
• 28:43
  We sort of see that's what the UK is.
• 28:44
  We're really important. We break new acts and maybe
• 28:48
  we're having to adjust to this idea of where we're at.
• 28:51
  We have stars can come from anywhere and they don't have to
• 28:53
  break here 1st. And we're maybe peripheral in
• 28:56
  some ways, like we're peripheral to K Pops rise, we're peripheral
• 29:00
  to Bad Bunny's rise. And we're trying to, I feel like
• 29:04
  there's a sense of the industry trying to say, well, what are we
• 29:06
  for and how do we navigate this and how do we make sure?
• 29:09
  And I mean, I was going to talk a bit about that, that the BPI
• 29:11
  put its end of year stats out on 31st December.
• 29:14
  That's right. OK.
• 29:15
  And then what are what are the BPI saying?
• 29:17
  Because last year it was quite bleak.
• 29:19
  The BPI report I thought was it. Well, it was.
• 29:21
  And when it came out last year, the media coverage was almost
• 29:23
  all, you know, lots of it was about there were no British
• 29:26
  artists in the charts anymore. And that was the the gist of it.
• 29:29
  And so this year, I mean, this, the press release for it, the
• 29:31
  headline was literally a new wave of global British
• 29:34
  breakthrough talent. And it talked about Olivia Dean
• 29:36
  and Lola Young and Sleep Token and Sky Newman and Sam Fender.
• 29:41
  And it talked about how many UK albums topped the album's chart
• 29:44
  last year, which is 27. And this whole press release,
• 29:47
  it's got the stats on how how music listening grew, which is
• 29:50
  kind of the the main story normally.
• 29:52
  But the whole story really was, look, British acts are doing
• 29:55
  much better now we're on the up again.
• 29:58
  And that I don't think it's just spin in a sense in that this is
• 30:02
  true. Like Olivia Dean's done
• 30:03
  brilliantly. Sleep Token have been one of the
• 30:05
  biggest stories in recent times in terms of rock band breaking
• 30:08
  globally but also being good on streaming.
• 30:12
  So it's all true stuff. But I think it gives you a sense
• 30:15
  of the sensitivities that the BPI wants to say, look, this guy
• 30:19
  isn't falling in, we can still create global breakthrough
• 30:22
  artists. And that that says to me a lot
• 30:23
  about how the British engine's feeling.
• 30:25
  It's feeling a bit a bit defensive, but also a bit it
• 30:27
  wants to kind of shout about the success stories.
• 30:31
  Yeah, I mean, I just, I just hope there's substance to this
• 30:34
  and you know, there there'll be progress in bringing other
• 30:38
  artists through and encouraging innovation.
• 30:41
  Because as much as you're saying, you know, we're we've
• 30:43
  always had a place on the global stage because we've produced
• 30:45
  artists, we've produced innovators, musical scenes that
• 30:48
  other places in the world have followed.
• 30:50
  And obviously, as you say, there are in terms of innovation at
• 30:53
  the moment that it's happening all over the globe now, isn't
• 30:56
  it? There are new genres coming out
• 30:58
  of different countries and the different countries are bringing
• 31:01
  encouraged by the fact that certainly some of the streaming
• 31:04
  services have entered into territories where they're
• 31:07
  aggressively marketing because they want to expand.
• 31:10
  And that's the one good thing is it's encouraged local scenes,
• 31:13
  whether it's Polish rap music or it's, you know, Afrobeat or
• 31:16
  something. But so every, it's, it's
• 31:19
  happening all over the place now.
• 31:21
  But, you know, can we support the people over here who are
• 31:25
  attempting to to do something new while, you know, also, as
• 31:30
  you know, regaining our the ability to write a good pop song
• 31:33
  that someone, you know, thousands of people in America
• 31:36
  will also like and hopefully pay for?
• 31:39
  One last thing. I mentioned, you know, the
• 31:43
  Warner's restructure and there were quite there have been quite
• 31:46
  a few people laid off in the music industry over the past
• 31:49
  year. I mean, you were saying, I
• 31:51
  wonder if this means that some of the people who are leaving
• 31:54
  the majors and there are some quite experienced people who've
• 31:58
  left the big labels, whether they may go, go on to start
• 32:01
  their own companies or or do something new themselves because
• 32:05
  they bring with them a lot of experience.
• 32:08
  Or will they move into the independent essentially then
• 32:11
  move into the independent sector either with their own thing or
• 32:14
  or going to work for emerging independent companies.
• 32:17
  That that was your point I think.
• 32:18
  Well, yeah. So like when I used to be a tech
• 32:20
  journalist, there was a thing that happened when, when a big
• 32:22
  tech company was sold or went public, like a Facebook, then
• 32:27
  people there would make lots of money and then they'd leave and
• 32:29
  set up their own new things. And you'd have a kind of 100
• 32:32
  startups would start blooming in the music industry.
• 32:35
  It's a bit bleaker because it's about layoffs, but there is, I
• 32:38
  mean, there's these layoffs, they've been every major label.
• 32:41
  And it's not really about the the most talented people's day.
• 32:46
  You know, often the the returns people were the ones who
• 32:48
  suddenly find themselves out in their ear for no fault of their
• 32:51
  own other than that their their department was just
• 32:54
  rationalized. So there are loads of people I
• 32:56
  know who are just people I've met before and thought they're
• 32:59
  smart, they know what they're doing, they're doing cool stuff
• 33:01
  who are suddenly out there going, well, I need a job now.
• 33:05
  And it's a really interesting moment, I think because if
• 33:07
  they're techie people, they're launching startups.
• 33:09
  So we talked to a new startup recently.
• 33:10
  There was they're basically people who used to work at
• 33:13
  Universal doing sort of marketing.
• 33:16
  And they've made this really interesting service that's going
• 33:18
  to help music marketers independently.
• 33:21
  So they've done a startup, Other people are launching their own
• 33:23
  labels, signing artists, people are setting up new marketing
• 33:26
  agencies, but also people are going independent, being
• 33:29
  consultants, just floating and saying I know stuff.
• 33:32
  I want to help artists who are kind of on their own.
• 33:35
  So DIY independent artists do the things they that that with
• 33:38
  my major label knowledge. So I think we're going to have
• 33:41
  this this year of if you are, if you're independent, you're going
• 33:46
  to suddenly have access to a lot of interesting people and
• 33:49
  knowledge and skills. You've come out of the midway
• 33:51
  and I and I, I feel this should be positive.
• 33:53
  I mean, I'm, I'm saying that back by no kind of evidence or
• 33:56
  proof yet because it's just all been happening.
• 33:59
  But there's a lot of good people who are suddenly looking for
• 34:02
  work. And, and again, when you, when
• 34:04
  you've come out of the majors world, you either go back into
• 34:06
  it, you go to another major or you go, I don't want to be in
• 34:11
  that wonder why I want to do my own thing.
• 34:13
  And I've heard a lot of people saying that variations on that,
• 34:16
  that. So I think it could be to go
• 34:20
  back to the point right at the beginning about artists who are
• 34:22
  anxious at the moment and thinking, how do I cut through
• 34:24
  all this noise with all this I'm using that.
• 34:26
  There are suddenly all these people floating around who can
• 34:29
  maybe help and want to help. And that's one of my positive
• 34:32
  things for the year is like this is this is the the silver lining
• 34:35
  to layoffs, which are never easy.
• 34:37
  Shall I, shall I give you my positive?
• 34:39
  I know again, I've got no, apart from gut instincts, I've got no
• 34:43
  actually, I can't really give you examples yet because
• 34:46
  obviously we're only a few days into the new year, but I think
• 34:49
  it's going to be a really good year for, for British music.
• 34:53
  And I don't, and I don't know, I don't know why.
• 34:56
  I just think this year's going to be pretty exciting.
• 34:58
  I mean, I've, I've seen a few artists during the course of the
• 35:01
  last 12 months who I think may sort of go on to break this
• 35:05
  year. But I think we're sort of quite,
• 35:07
  we're quite well set up if everything falls into place to
• 35:11
  have quite an interesting musical year.
• 35:14
  So that's that's my positive all is.
• 35:17
  So I say all is not lost. That's what I'm going to say.
• 35:20
  You know, I think I've got, I've got a theory as well that the
• 35:23
  more everything is online and digital and the more AI is and
• 35:26
  everywhere around us. And I think there's going to
• 35:29
  people are going to have a hunger for real connections
• 35:32
  with, with artists. And that's good for live music.
• 35:35
  And it's also good for kind of people supporting artists they
• 35:38
  love and saying, yeah, actually I love this artist and they're
• 35:40
  maybe struggling. So yeah, I think the more things
• 35:43
  all do go AI and digital, the more there's a real strong push
• 35:47
  back of people saying I want connection with humans and
• 35:50
  that's why. Well, look, there's a few.
• 35:53
  There's a few ideas of what might happen this year.
• 35:56
  Rest assured though, dear listener, we'll be here every
• 35:58
  week with news from the week and musical tips and gossip from the
• 36:03
  industry and insights into who's doing well and who's just blown
• 36:07
  it. And if you think that's
• 36:09
  something that your friends or colleagues or maybe even budding
• 36:12
  musicians might like to know about, please do spread the
• 36:15
  words. You can also support the show
• 36:17
  via Patreon. In fact, if you sign up to be a
• 36:20
  super fan, you get an extra 1520 minutes or so of me and him
• 36:24
  chatting about music and money. This week we'll probably do
• 36:29
  possibly more about heritage acts, ticket prices, my
• 36:33
  reflections on the Rockaway Beach Festival where DJ said the
• 36:35
  weekend just gone, and whatever else comes up.
• 36:39
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• 36:42
  at patreon.com/the Price of Music.
• 36:45
  Alternatively, of course, you'd just like to get in touch with
• 36:48
  us via e-mail. The address is the Price of
• 36:51
  Music. Podcast podcast@gmail.com.
• 36:53
  Anything you don't understand about how the industry works,
• 36:55
  Any observations you have or things that you think we might
• 36:59
  be able to make sense of that's have always bothered you about
• 37:03
  the music bizthepriceofmusicpodcast@gmail.com.
• 37:07
  Thanks everyone. It is to 2026.
• 37:10
  See you next week. Take care.