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Entitled To Be Alive with Shideh Lennon · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma THEAPIS podcast. My name is Gamcpherson.
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Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
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Speaker 1: those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go,
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Speaker 1: So five, four, three, two and one are folks. Welcome
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Speaker 1: back to the podcast. Very excited to have as my
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Speaker 1: guest today, Doctor Shauday Lenin Shauday welcome.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's so good to be here.
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Speaker 1: Awesome So. Doctor Shaday is a dedicated psychologist with over
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Speaker 1: two decades of experience who specializes in training fellow professionals
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Speaker 1: and somatic experiencing. Her mission is to empower practitioners to
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Speaker 1: work effectively with those who've experienced complex trauma. She was
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Speaker 1: born and raised in Iran. At the age of thirteen,
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Speaker 1: she and her family, spanning three generations of women and girls,
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Speaker 1: left Iran after the revolution and settled in the UK. Later,
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Speaker 1: they immigrated to the US, where Shoulday completed her education.
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Speaker 1: This significant chapter in her life is instilled in her
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Speaker 1: profound understanding and passion for those who yearned to belong
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Speaker 1: but struggle due to the weight of trauma. Should they welcome? So,
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Speaker 1: before we get going here, share with the listeners where
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Speaker 1: you're from originally we heard that obviously, but where you
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Speaker 1: are currently?
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Speaker 2: I am currently in Maryland.
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Speaker 3: After having lived in New York for close to forty years. Wow,
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Speaker 3: back to Maryland where I actually landed from England.
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Speaker 2: When we first moved here.
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Speaker 1: Wow.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was in New York for thirty six years. Close.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, wow, so very intense little snippet of your bio.
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Speaker 1: But give us more and share with us how this.
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Speaker 1: I mean, we can imagine how things unfolded for you,
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Speaker 1: but tell us how did this interest begin for you?
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Speaker 2: Yeah?
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Speaker 3: I have an early memory when I was five years old.
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Speaker 3: My parents divorced at that time and when and at
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Speaker 3: that time, they weren't talking to each other. So whenever
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Speaker 3: my father and I lived with my mother would come
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Speaker 3: to pick us up, they wouldn't talk. They would just
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Speaker 3: say hello, hello, and my dad would take me and
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Speaker 3: my sister out for our time.
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Speaker 2: And so one day my dad came in.
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Speaker 3: And I remember looking up at both of them and saying,
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Speaker 3: why don't you two sit down and talk.
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Speaker 2: To each other?
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Speaker 1: How old we do? How old were you five?
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Speaker 3: I was five, And so a psychologist was born, and.
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Speaker 2: Then you know, things evolved.
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Speaker 3: I obviously I lived there, and then at thirteen, with the.
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Speaker 2: Revolution, we.
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Speaker 3: My grandmother, mother, my sister, and I basically migrated to
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Speaker 3: the UK. Thankfully my mother had connections there, she had work,
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Speaker 3: and so, you know, things were already brewing about what
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Speaker 3: it is to be a person in the world from
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Speaker 3: my early childhood, what it is to belong, what it
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Speaker 3: is to feel not belonging. And at thirteen everything turned
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Speaker 3: on its head where we moved to a culture that
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Speaker 3: was so deeply different than my own, and even though
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Speaker 3: I was pretty westernized, it was a shock shock to
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Speaker 3: my thirteen year old, hormonally imbalanced, you know system, and
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Speaker 3: so I went in, you know, I really turned in.
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Speaker 3: Had already been very internal kid, and so I turned
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Speaker 3: in even more and basically just became a really good student,
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Speaker 3: and everything else got truncated. Social life, dating life, there
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Speaker 3: was no room for any of that. So he became
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Speaker 3: very introspective and very sort of Then when we moved
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Speaker 3: to this country, as all Iranians who have some privilege,
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Speaker 3: you either become an engineer, a medical doctor, or a lawyer.
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Speaker 2: So like, I'm going to go to medical school.
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Speaker 3: So in college I was a microbiology student, but something
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Speaker 3: in me. Knew that I needed some help, and so
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Speaker 3: at eighteen I went to.
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Speaker 2: Therapy on my own.
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Speaker 3: My first therapist, Doug Favero, I want to name him.
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Speaker 3: At eighteen, I went to him and he really helped
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Speaker 3: to save me. And he gave me a book by
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Speaker 3: Ervin Yaalam, Existential Psychotherapy. And I was twenty and it
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Speaker 3: was a tome and I couldn't put that book down
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Speaker 3: because it spoke to me on a deep level. It's like, oh,
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Speaker 3: that's me. What is it to be a human being?
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Speaker 3: What is it to be in pain? What is it
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Speaker 3: to not know myself? And so I stayed a medical
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Speaker 3: I stayed a microbiology major, but switched all my classes
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Speaker 3: to psychology when I was twenty one and applied to
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Speaker 3: graduate school and went to Adelphi in New York to
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Speaker 3: become a psychologist, got my PhD. But still I was
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Speaker 3: a seeker, right, Something wasn't hitting home and it was
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Speaker 3: good therapist all of this. So then I found zen
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Speaker 3: Buddhist practice. I don't know if it says that in
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Speaker 3: my bio or not. So I went to a monastery.
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Speaker 1: Okay, wait, how hung right here? This is getting so good?
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Speaker 1: I mean, you had me at that story when you
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Speaker 1: were like, Okay, why don't you guys sit down and
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Speaker 1: talk to each other? That was That's an amazing story.
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Speaker 1: It is, I mean, what an incredible memory. At eighteen,
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Speaker 1: you said you went to see Dan Favarro, Dougg Doug Favro.
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Speaker 1: What was going on for you such that you reached out.
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Speaker 3: I went to a college counselor at the time who
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Speaker 3: asked me, do you think your mother loved you? And
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Speaker 3: I remember that moment. I remember exactly where I was sitting,
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Speaker 3: what the walls looked like. I was eighteen, and I
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Speaker 3: couldn't answer that question, and I literally stopped in my tracks.
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Speaker 3: But I didn't know why. I didn't know why I
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Speaker 3: had been so moved. And then she referred me to
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Speaker 3: dog because it was only six sessions with.
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Speaker 2: Her or something.
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Speaker 3: That question really made me curious. But more than it,
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Speaker 3: it created turbulence in my body. And I didn't know
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Speaker 3: all that my cat's coming in now. I didn't know.
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Speaker 3: All I knew was that I needed to find the
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Speaker 3: answer to that question.
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Speaker 1: That's a pretty intense question. I know, that's a pretty
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Speaker 1: heavy question. Yes, So were you were you when you
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Speaker 1: went to uh that initial college counselor where you what
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Speaker 1: was distressing for you? Were you? It was just to
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Speaker 1: know something was going on for you.
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Speaker 2: Something was going on that I still you know, I
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Speaker 2: can put words to it now.
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Speaker 3: Then I think I was lost and dissociated, and you know,
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Speaker 3: if somebody looked at me, I would start crying. So
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Speaker 3: everything was just below the surface, but no words. I
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Speaker 3: think I hated myself. I mean when I look back,
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Speaker 3: I really had no sense of myself as a person
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Speaker 3: who was entitled to be alive, who had a right
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Speaker 3: to herself, who had a sense of agency. And these
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Speaker 3: are again my words now, But back then I was dissociated.
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Speaker 2: But something in.
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Speaker 3: Me knew that this is the beauty of trauma is
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Speaker 3: that to every trauma there is a counter there is
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Speaker 3: a resilient core, and that was operating in me without
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Speaker 3: knowing it.
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Speaker 2: Wow, it's sort of And that's.
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Speaker 3: What I love about teaching and working with clients is
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Speaker 3: no matter the depth of trauma, and there was a
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Speaker 3: lot for me, there is what we call counter vortex
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Speaker 3: from an somatic experiencing perspective, is that point of light,
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Speaker 3: that moment of resilience. And it happened to be that
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Speaker 3: moment of I don't know how to answer this question.
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Speaker 3: Did your mother love you? I didn't know the answer.
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Speaker 2: That's odd.
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Speaker 1: So you have that experience with Doug at some point,
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Speaker 1: at a later point, you switch all of your classes
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Speaker 1: your focus to psychology. Let's jump there. You're in that program.
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Speaker 1: You're studying what is resonating with you? How is that?
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Speaker 2: I love?
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Speaker 3: For all you know, being a good learning is like
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Speaker 3: was my hunger and one really needing to place myself
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Speaker 3: somewhere psychologically, finding myself some where in the words of
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Speaker 3: Freud at the time, or in the words of Wynnicott,
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Speaker 3: I studied psychoanalytic psychology, in the words of the relational people,
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Speaker 3: about how trauma often has to do with a breach
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Speaker 3: in relationship with a with a break in relation to
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Speaker 3: ourself and to others.
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Speaker 2: And so I could I could find that, and that.
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Speaker 3: Was I was on fire with that. It's like, oh,
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Speaker 3: this is really exciting. And I got into I was
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Speaker 3: with another therapist at the time who was you know,
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Speaker 3: I still see once in a while, who was tremendously
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Speaker 3: helpful in helping me through that through the graduate program, repair.
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Speaker 2: The relational wounds in me.
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Speaker 3: So so between reading about it and doing my personal work.
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Speaker 2: It was a really rich time and yet so that's
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Speaker 2: what was exciting.
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Speaker 3: I could go on about what you know, the yet
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Speaker 3: all the yets in that, but so I loved it.
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Speaker 2: I was gobbling it up.
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Speaker 3: I was reading, I was writing, I was getting seeing clients.
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Speaker 3: By then, I was learning, and it was just you know, food.
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Speaker 1: And where were you at this living at this time?
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Speaker 1: Is this in New York?
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Speaker 2: This is New York, This is Long Island and New York.
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Speaker 3: And I went straight from college, so I started grad
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Speaker 3: school at twenty two.
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Speaker 2: It's very young, yeah, and just you know, really excited about.
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Speaker 3: Being a therapist and about telling people to sit down
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Speaker 3: and talk to each other, right, and to talk to me,
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Speaker 3: and to be able to express rather than.
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Speaker 2: Suppress.
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Speaker 4: Right.
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Speaker 1: How when you started doing that and having experience of
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Speaker 1: working with clients or patients, whatever terminology you want to use,
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Speaker 1: what was that like for you, and especially what was
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Speaker 1: it like for you to engage with someone's traumatic experiences.
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Speaker 2: It was horrible.
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Speaker 3: I mean I was you know, I was young, so
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Speaker 3: my brain was bigger than my capacity at the time,
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Speaker 3: you know, my intellect was bigger. So it took some
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Speaker 3: time to really you know, season myself in that. But
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Speaker 3: it was also exciting because I had tools that I
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Speaker 3: could offer people that had less access to these tools
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Speaker 3: than even myself, right, And it was really exciting to
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Speaker 3: put a person in a framework, Oh, this is their suffering,
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Speaker 3: and at the time it was well, they're depressed, or
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Speaker 3: they're you know, going into rages.
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Speaker 2: Or whatever it was.
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Speaker 3: You know, so it actually made sense of what to
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Speaker 3: me in my childhood had felt like chaos. I was
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Speaker 3: able to put in order for my clients and therefore.
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Speaker 2: For myself, right.
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Speaker 3: So so in that sense it was really exciting. I
13:20
Speaker 3: had a long way to go to embody that for
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Speaker 3: myself as a human, as a clinician, as a trauma therapist,
13:29
Speaker 3: but so that was really exciting. It was like, oh,
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Speaker 3: I get to put this person in a frame that
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Speaker 3: makes sense for them and from chaos to sense, that
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Speaker 3: to me was sanity.
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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
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Speaker 2: You can name things, you can express.
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Speaker 1: Things, right. You talked about at an earlier time being
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Speaker 1: very shy. You know, someone looked at you you should cry.
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Speaker 1: Contrast that with your presence when you began working with clients.
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Speaker 1: To what degree were you able to engage with them
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Speaker 1: on a kind of a human level. Were you able
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Speaker 1: to do.
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Speaker 2: That and not completely? I think I always had.
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Speaker 3: A soft, gentle approach to people that really helped them
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Speaker 3: feel seen and that was always there. So that was
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Speaker 3: my superpower and I did that. In terms of being
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Speaker 3: embodied and fully engaged, I wasn't able. It took somebody
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Speaker 3: experiencing and spiritual practice actually for me to fully come
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Speaker 3: into my body as a whole organism that I can
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Speaker 3: then use as.
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Speaker 2: A tool in helping heal people.
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Speaker 3: So back then it was my empathy, my intellectual understanding,
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Speaker 3: my warmth, and sort of the gentleness that a lot
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Speaker 3: of people we're missing in their life, just somebody who
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Speaker 3: brings that gentle presence.
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Speaker 2: They were missing that. So that was the bone marrow.
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Speaker 3: That I had, and I built on that over time,
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Speaker 3: but mostly through my own personal work, not so much
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Speaker 3: about reading theory and all this.
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Speaker 1: Right, talk a little bit about your Zen practice in
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Speaker 1: how why Zen and how that informed and inspire the
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Speaker 1: work you do.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know it really shaped me. I lived
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Speaker 3: in a monastery for ten years.
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Speaker 2: Wow, in my thirties.
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Speaker 1: Where was this?
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Speaker 3: It was at Zen Mountain Monastery in Mount trent Burg,
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Speaker 3: New York. And I went in there I think when
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Speaker 3: I look back, I went in there because I didn't
15:52
Speaker 3: want to be in this world. It was just too
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Speaker 3: painful to be in this world at the age of
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Speaker 3: thirty four, and so I went in there to meditate
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Speaker 3: and to see what it what it's like to live
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Speaker 3: in community, which turned out to have its challenges.
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Speaker 2: The way that it shaped me, however, was being able
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Speaker 2: to sit with.
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Speaker 3: The intolerable, whether it was intolerable terror, it for me
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Speaker 3: it was anxiety and panic, the intolerable of being in
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Speaker 3: my body and to pause with it m hm, you know,
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Speaker 3: really was uh mm. It shaped me in terms of
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Speaker 3: and in terms of how it can be with people
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Speaker 3: with that solid presence.
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Speaker 2: It had its drawbacks.
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Speaker 3: There are challenges when there's trauma and you go meditate,
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Speaker 3: your body can go into a freeze, and mind certainly
17:04
Speaker 3: did that so after so, but that sense of that
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Speaker 3: there's a fierceness to zen practice where you sit.
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Speaker 2: And you don't move and you you are with it
17:17
Speaker 2: right and.
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Speaker 3: Despite its drawbacks for a traumatized nervous system, it gave
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Speaker 3: me the fierceness to face my own my own pain.
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Speaker 1: To do that from my outside perspective feels like a
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Speaker 1: very courageous move. I mean, you don't describe yourself as
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Speaker 1: someone who's like bring it on person, and yet the
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Speaker 1: Zen was really almost forcing you to do that.
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Speaker 2: Yes.
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Speaker 1: It almost felt like subconsciously you wanted that, you.
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Speaker 3: Needed that, yes, or or I needed to I needed
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Speaker 3: that because there is a part of me that's like
18:05
Speaker 3: bring it, come on, all right, but it was so
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Speaker 3: suppressed and so it kind of came out through my
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Speaker 3: Zen practice.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, panic, come on, come get me.
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Speaker 3: And I remember one moment when I was sitting there
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Speaker 3: terrified of a panic attack in my meditation, and I said, all.
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Speaker 1: Right, we're gonna do this, We're gonna do this. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: well ten years, ten years that was there, Jesus I did.
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Speaker 1: I did a week was it a weekend at the
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Speaker 1: Zen Center in San Francisco many years ago, and I
18:45
Speaker 1: was like, okay, all right, so let's talk about First
18:50
Speaker 1: of all, let me let me reintroduce you speaking with
18:54
Speaker 1: should they doctor? Should they Lenin? What was your introduction
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Speaker 1: to somatic experiencing.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually, at the monastery where I lived, there was
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Speaker 3: a number of therapists who would practice there, and a
19:13
Speaker 3: couple of them had been taking the training and when
19:16
Speaker 3: I left the monastery when I realized that I am
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Speaker 3: better in the world. I am better in the world
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Speaker 3: I need to be. You know, a couple of.
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Speaker 2: My friends were going to take the training and they said,
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Speaker 2: come on, let's take it. Let's take it.
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Speaker 3: I lived in New York at the time. I said,
19:31
Speaker 3: all right, I didn't want to be left out. Basically,
19:34
Speaker 3: I had FOMO. So the three of us took the
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Speaker 3: sc training together what about twelve thirteen years ago now
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Speaker 3: and and it was a difficult training because that's where
19:51
Speaker 3: I came face to face with what the freeze and
19:54
Speaker 3: constriction my body had been locked in.
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Speaker 2: So the first two years years of the training were
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Speaker 2: really difficult. And I the reason I continued were we're twofold.
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Speaker 3: One is that my friends were there, but the other
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Speaker 3: one was there's something here for me to learn that
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Speaker 3: talk therapy hasn't taught me.
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Speaker 2: And so I continued.
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Speaker 3: And I and I in my advanced year, I did
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Speaker 3: a demo did they do these live demos with a
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Speaker 3: teacher Rajah who Raja seldom, who's a giant of se
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Speaker 3: And and that was transformative. That made me an se practitioner.
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Speaker 1: And what what about that? What about that?
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Speaker 2: Experience he worked with fear. So he had me, you know.
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Speaker 1: We're feeling fear was a live demo.
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Speaker 3: It was a live demo front well, you know, eighty people,
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Speaker 3: my my student, my classmates, and he said, look at
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Speaker 3: he said, look at a supportive person in the crowd,
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Speaker 3: just to ground yourself. And my good friend was there
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Speaker 3: and I looked at her, and guess what happened. I
21:08
Speaker 3: burst into tears because the notion of actually looking for support.
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Speaker 3: One of the things on trauma that gets severed is
21:16
Speaker 3: our ability to reach for support because there was none
21:22
Speaker 3: when the trauma happened, or the very people whose job
21:26
Speaker 3: it was to protect us were the very people who
21:29
Speaker 3: hurt us, so the support was damager. And then so
21:34
Speaker 3: we went there and then fear started to rise up
21:37
Speaker 3: in my chest.
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Speaker 2: It was a lot of shaking in my chest.
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Speaker 3: He said, put your arms out, and I put my
21:44
Speaker 3: arms out and my hands began to shake and my
21:48
Speaker 3: job began to shake, and I'm like, okay, he said,
21:53
Speaker 3: just let that happen, and he looked at me. He said,
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Speaker 3: that's fear.
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Speaker 2: And it's like the penny dropped. It's like, oh, there's fear. Oh,
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Speaker 2: that's what fear. Is and guess what I can be
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Speaker 2: with it?
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Speaker 3: So my whole relationship with that terror really, which was
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Speaker 3: what it was shifted to, there's terror and there's me.
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Speaker 3: There's me in my spine. He worked with my legs
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Speaker 3: a lot, and it was like, oh, this is powerful.
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Speaker 3: You know when I can when I could feel something
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Speaker 3: intolerable in my body and feel its reverberations and not
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Speaker 3: fight it, but also have my spine and my legs
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Speaker 3: with me, you know. And that's what a se we
22:49
Speaker 3: call the healing vortex, which is how do you be
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Speaker 3: with something that feels intolerable but keep your seat, be
22:57
Speaker 3: in your spine, be in your legs, and be with
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Speaker 3: that experience. Because the world isn't a place where we
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Speaker 3: where we're not activated. We're going to be activated. There's
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Speaker 3: going to be fear. So how do we So anyway I.
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Speaker 4: Could go on, Wow, what a what a great uh
23:16
Speaker 4: experience and just love the way you articulate your experiences.
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Speaker 1: So how talk to us about how things unfolded for
23:26
Speaker 1: you such that you became a trainer. You got into it,
23:29
Speaker 1: I got into it.
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Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, I said to Raja, I said, Rajia,
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Speaker 3: You're never going to be rid of me, because I'm
23:38
Speaker 3: going to follow and learn from you everywhere you go.
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Speaker 3: He's like, okay. So I began to study with him,
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Speaker 3: I assisted him. I became an assistant in the sc trainings. Wow,
23:50
Speaker 3: an assistant you know, teacher, and I did that for
23:55
Speaker 3: a few years and one of my one of the teachers.
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Speaker 2: There, came to me and said, what do you want.
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Speaker 2: I don't know why she asked that. It came out
24:05
Speaker 2: of the seemingly out and I told her I want
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Speaker 2: to teach, and she really it was.
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Speaker 3: A beautiful example of a woman lifting up another woman,
24:17
Speaker 3: which is also very repetitive for me. M So she
24:22
Speaker 3: really helped me to become faculty and she mentored me,
24:28
Speaker 3: and I'm so grateful for her because teaching is where
24:35
Speaker 3: I actually feel most myself or the best version of myself,
24:41
Speaker 3: right and and so you know, and you know, se
24:49
Speaker 3: is about becoming the fullest version of who we are
24:52
Speaker 3: in the body, in an embodied way, and you know,
24:57
Speaker 3: and I feel like that's sort of the culmination of
24:59
Speaker 3: the work that I've done, is being able to offer
25:02
Speaker 3: that to people with as much of me as possible.
25:09
Speaker 3: I don't know if that makes sense, but So there's
25:11
Speaker 3: a lot of me and the teachings of SS, a
25:16
Speaker 3: lot of stories, a lot of sharing what's happening in
25:19
Speaker 3: my own body with my students to normalize.
25:21
Speaker 2: There's a lot of.
25:22
Speaker 3: Shame and trauma mm hmm, you know, and so we
25:25
Speaker 3: de shame it by talking about, oh, this happened to
25:30
Speaker 3: me too, and here's how my body reacted. And I
25:35
Speaker 3: love that too, And then I see my students slide up.
25:42
Speaker 1: Me too. That's an incredible sharing there, talking about the shame,
25:50
Speaker 1: naming the shame first of all, and then being able
25:53
Speaker 1: to share that with others. How did you get to
25:58
Speaker 1: that point where you're able to do that.
26:00
Speaker 2: A lot of fear.
26:06
Speaker 3: I used to stand at my Gooddest altar before every lesson,
26:10
Speaker 3: before every module and basically invoked my spine and my courage.
26:18
Speaker 2: And then at one point I think, I so so
26:20
Speaker 2: a lot of sc works. So really feeling my.
26:22
Speaker 3: Feet, I mean, it's simple in some ways when I'm teaching,
26:25
Speaker 3: feel your feet, feel that they're shaking in my chest and.
26:32
Speaker 2: The ground at the same time.
26:33
Speaker 3: And I began to do that, and I began to
26:36
Speaker 3: share that with my class. So you know, I'm pretty nervous, right,
26:40
Speaker 3: now let me tell you what's happening for me. My
26:44
Speaker 3: chest is shaky, my throat is a little tight. Oh,
26:49
Speaker 3: let me check. Oh, I feel my button the chair though,
26:53
Speaker 3: and I can wiggle my toes.
26:55
Speaker 2: And this is what we learn in SE. So I
26:59
Speaker 2: began to in some way.
27:03
Speaker 3: Share my experience and that made it more tolerable.
27:08
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, I'm.
27:10
Speaker 3: Vulnerable too, and I find vulnerability is the best form
27:15
Speaker 3: of protection.
27:17
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, amazing, amazing. I love it. I love talking
27:24
Speaker 1: to you. So as you kind of wind.
27:26
Speaker 2: Down editing some of this, I could go on, Oh no, no.
27:29
Speaker 1: No, not editing anything. As we kind of wind down
27:32
Speaker 1: here she day, So what do you do now? Talk
27:39
Speaker 1: to us about your practice now, your teachings now?
27:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So I still see private clients. Okay, I've
27:49
Speaker 3: cut back quite a bit. I teach everywhere. I teach
27:52
Speaker 3: in the US, Canada, Europe, I teach see. I do
27:56
Speaker 3: consultations with students and SE practitioners, and so that's the
28:06
Speaker 3: bulk of what my work life is, okay now, and
28:09
Speaker 3: I'm moving more towards consultations. I'm you know, I'm doing workshops.
28:14
Speaker 3: I recently did a workshop on the fund response or
28:18
Speaker 3: the people pleasing response, and so I'm going to do
28:22
Speaker 3: that in the US in a few months. So more
28:27
Speaker 3: offering myself to groups to teach is sort of where
28:30
Speaker 3: I feel like I want to go. I'm going, okay,
28:34
Speaker 3: cutting back on clinical practice a little bit, but not completely.
28:38
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So how do people learn more about
28:41
Speaker 1: you and your workshops and consultation, et cetera.
28:45
Speaker 3: They can go on my website, Embodied Resilience dot io
28:51
Speaker 3: and they can check me out there. They can also
28:54
Speaker 3: go on the SEI website Trauma Healing dot org.
28:58
Speaker 2: Okay, and I have a by there and ways to
29:00
Speaker 2: get in touch with me.
29:03
Speaker 3: If they want to be on my mailing list, they
29:05
Speaker 3: can go through my website to do that, okay. They
29:09
Speaker 3: can also watch a YouTube video a YouTube thing that's
29:13
Speaker 3: on there. I did a workshop on grief uncollective grief,
29:18
Speaker 3: so they can get to know me a little bit
29:20
Speaker 3: through that.
29:21
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, we'll have those linked up here at
29:25
Speaker 1: the show notes page at the Trauma Theaprispodcast dot com.
29:28
Speaker 1: Once again, today's r L is Embodied Resilience dot Io Today. Amazing.
29:35
Speaker 1: You are so inspiring. Jesus. Love to have you back,
29:40
Speaker 1: have to have you back at later day, love to
29:42
Speaker 1: come back. Awesome, awesome, we'll do it to share you
29:46
Speaker 1: do and you're just You're just a wonderful sharer of
29:51
Speaker 1: your experience. I love it. Thank you so much. We'll
29:54
Speaker 1: be in touch.
29:56
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to speak with you.
29:58
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. By bye, right my fa