Latest / The Starfish Storytellers / Season 5 Episode 5: Rewriting Pain - The Mind, the Body, and the Power of Story with Ron Clinton

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Season 5 Episode 5: Rewriting Pain - The Mind, the Body, and the Power of Story with Ron Clinton · The Starfish Storytellers

0:00
Welcome to the starfish storytellers the podcast
0:03
that makes a difference one story at a time by
0:06
bringing storytelling to life I Was at a seminar
0:12
with 50 physical therapists and the instructor
0:19
made the following statement Diagnoses have seen
0:24
you but you have not seen them Now what did he
0:29
mean by that? There was a study done by McKenzie
0:35
physical therapist who are trained and certified
0:39
in that method of 36 consecutive patients who
0:45
came from specialists and the diagnosis that
0:50
was given by the specialist turned out to be
0:55
incorrect. 71 % of the time. So an example would
1:03
be a patient would come in with an elbow pain,
1:06
let's say from playing pickleball. And the doctor's
1:12
diagnosis is elbow pain. A McKinsey therapist
1:18
will evaluate them and they will start up at
1:23
the neck. and clear the neck, make sure the neck
1:26
is not connected to the problem. And they don't
1:29
have to have neck pain. And many times, and I
1:33
had a case exactly like this, where the patient
1:36
came in with pickleball elbow, and it turned
1:41
out that the treatment that got the patient better
1:45
was neck treatment, no elbow treatment whatsoever.
1:50
Now, one of the most dramatic cases that I've
1:54
ever seen came from a referral from the Cleveland
2:00
Clinic from the director of the Headache and
2:05
Balance Clinic. And this patient happened to
2:09
be from the same city that I was working in.
2:12
And I've been working with this doctor at the
2:15
Cleveland Clinic for over 14 years. He referred
2:19
the patient to me and The patient told me that
2:25
she had been having symptoms such as almost passing
2:30
out, headaches, dizziness, imbalance, difficulty
2:37
walking, like when she'd go shopping, she would
2:41
be going off to the side and things like that.
2:46
The immediate thought by most doctors would be
2:50
there's a possibility of a brain tumor here.
2:53
And so they did a brain MRI, but nothing showed
2:58
in terms of any negative consequences. So she
3:04
was then referred to a ear, nose, and throat
3:09
doctor, and they did inner ear testing. And the
3:16
inner ear testing was all negative. So the doctor
3:22
who did that meets with the patient, and the
3:26
patient said, well, what's going on? What is
3:31
my diagnosis? He said, well, your tests are all
3:34
normal. So I guess your diagnosis is G -O -K.
3:41
She said, what does G -O -K mean? He said, God
3:45
only knows. And the patient was like, what? What
3:51
does that mean? Well she ended up going to the
3:54
Cleveland Clinic and she was referred to me here.
4:00
We did our neck evaluation and sure enough all
4:04
the symptoms were coming from her neck. We did
4:08
the appropriate neck exercise program and after
4:12
a bit the symptoms resolved. A McKenzie evaluation
4:18
was the key to this patient's success. Hello,
4:31
my name is Liana Henry and welcome to the Starfish
4:34
storytellers. I'm the CEO of the Black Dog Group
4:37
and your host. I'm passionate about storytelling
4:40
and on a mission to raise up the next generation
4:42
of storytellers. We're called the Starfish storytellers
4:46
after the moral of the Starfish story, which
4:48
centers on the power of one. Because no matter
4:51
how big the challenge every action matters one
4:54
step one starfish and one story at a time Every
4:58
episode will welcome a new storyteller who will
5:01
inspire and connect with you. So thanks for tuning
5:03
in now. Let's get started Today's episode is
5:08
rewriting pain the mind the body and the power
5:11
of story and with me today is Ron Clinton Ron
5:16
is a physical therapist an educator and author
5:19
with over 35 years of experience helping patients
5:22
overcome back, neck, and knee pain. He's a certified
5:26
McKenzie Method practitioner and has been recognized
5:29
for his work in patient education, earning him
5:32
patient educator of the year during his time
5:34
leading back care programs at major hospitals.
5:38
Throughout his career, Ron has worked with thousands
5:40
of patients, including some of the most complex
5:43
cases referred by surgeons and specialists, and
5:46
has built a reputation for helping people find
5:49
relief through conservative, evidence -based
5:51
approaches that often avoid injections, medications,
5:55
and surgery. We're gonna talk a little bit about
5:57
that today. Ron's work is rooted in the belief
6:01
that healing doesn't just come from treatment.
6:04
It comes from understanding. Through his book,
6:07
Self -Managed Knee Pain, and his workshops on
6:09
stress and wellbeing, He empowers people to take
6:12
an active role in their recovery and rethink
6:15
what's possible for their bodies and their lives.
6:19
Ron works in a space where the stories people
6:21
carry about pain, what it means, what caused
6:25
it, and what comes next can shape everything
6:28
about their recovery. And through his work, he
6:30
helps patients challenge those narratives, rebuild
6:33
their confidence, and move toward a better quality
6:36
of life. So welcome to the starfish storytellers,
6:39
Ron. We're really happy you're here. Well, thank
6:42
you. It's really an honor to be part of your
6:45
program. Thank you. So Ron, we kick off every
6:49
episode by asking our guests to introduce themselves.
6:52
So would you mind telling us a little bit more
6:54
about you in your own words? Sure. I think I'd
7:00
like to start by telling you how I got into physical
7:04
therapy in the first place. It is really a serendipitous
7:09
type of situation. So I really had no thought
7:14
or idea of what I wanted to do as a career, as
7:21
a Macomb Community College student. And so I
7:28
had read some books by a Dr. Thomas Dooley, who
7:32
was a Navy surgeon. who was stationed in Southeast
7:37
Asia during, well, right around the time the
7:41
Vietnam War started. And he served the tour of
7:45
duty there, serving the people in little communities
7:50
there. And after he was done with his tour of
7:54
duty, he fell in love with these people there,
7:58
and he just decided to stay and establish clinics
8:02
throughout. Southeast Asia and he'd come back
8:06
home and he'd do lecturing and raise money and
8:11
so he's doing this really good work. So I had
8:13
this inkling of medicine and I was going to enlist
8:18
in the army as a medic. I thought maybe that
8:20
might, I might find out something about medicine
8:24
doing that and I got to the recruiter's office
8:28
early that day and he said, well, you know, talking
8:33
to somebody now why don't you go over in this
8:35
room there's some literature you can look at
8:37
it so I go in there and I open up this book it's
8:41
called careers in the service and I'm flipping
8:44
the pages physical therapy oh my god I loved
8:51
sports I played hockey baseball football basketball
8:56
everything and then medicine I said this is the
9:00
perfect combination for me medicine and exercise.
9:05
And I was going to tell the guy, instead of signing
9:09
up to be a medic, I want to be a physical therapist.
9:11
And he says, OK, well, let's see what you have
9:14
to do. And so we started doing the paperwork.
9:17
And he said, oh, wait a minute. There's a problem.
9:20
I said, what's the problem? He says, they're
9:22
only taking women. At that time, they only took
9:27
women in physical therapy. So I said, but is
9:30
there someplace else I could learn that profession?
9:33
And I said, well, let's see, looked it up and
9:37
said, well, Wayne State University in Detroit.
9:40
I said, okay, well, I think I'm gonna just wait
9:42
a little while about enlisting here. So I went
9:44
and researched all of that, found out what I
9:47
had to do to get into physical therapy school,
9:50
and I managed to get in and graduate and start
9:53
my career. Now, who I am in terms of being a
10:01
physical therapist and a person, I'm someone
10:05
who loves to exercise and I love to share information
10:11
and I love to facilitate healing. And I try to
10:20
be a good listener by listening with both the
10:24
ears and the eyes of taking in the whole story,
10:30
not just the words. but the body language and
10:34
that type of thing as I'm working with a patient.
10:38
And I try not to present myself as the healer
10:41
but as the facilitator of healing because it's
10:47
a partnership between the therapist and the patient
10:51
in terms of things that I can do for them but
10:56
things that they have to do themselves. We can
10:58
point them in the right direction. but they have
11:01
to follow through in order to get the best results.
11:05
Well, thank you for sharing that. I was listening
11:08
to the story that you were sharing about that
11:11
patient and how often does it happen, right?
11:14
That doctors just respond to the pain that the
11:20
patient reports. And I'm a huge proponent for
11:23
root cause. My whole family, actually, we've
11:27
all worked with trainers for different types
11:30
of strength competitions, strong man, powerlifting,
11:32
things like that. And I had a really bad episode
11:37
about for like six or eight weeks of sciatica.
11:40
And, you know, one of the things that, and I
11:42
knew how I did it. Um, and one of the things
11:44
that my trainer had said was he talked about
11:47
what you were talking about, like looking at
11:50
all the places around that impacted spot. to
11:53
see where else there could be an issue. Because
11:57
I think so often we focus on that one spot where
11:59
the pain is, but we don't think about where the
12:02
hip is. You're not thinking about the knee or
12:04
the quad or the glute or the back, but I don't
12:09
think people even think to do that. It's so interesting
12:12
because in the story that you told and even in
12:13
your introduction, storytelling doesn't always
12:16
happen through words by themselves. It's how
12:19
we understand our bodies, right? And people carry
12:23
stories about pain. They carry stories about
12:26
what it, how has it caused and what it means
12:28
and what's going to be possible. And of course,
12:31
when we're in pain, we want to feel better quick.
12:34
And that can limit them, I think, you know, having
12:36
that, walking around with that story and it can
12:38
limit their ability to heal. And we do live in
12:42
a world right now where quick fixes, invasive
12:45
solutions, Those are usually the loudest voices
12:49
and seems like you do the work that reminds people
12:52
that understanding patients, the right guidance.
12:56
And you just said it when your introduction,
12:58
it's the team sport between physical therapists
13:01
and patient that can change their narrative completely.
13:05
And so really, I guess it's not just about treating
13:08
pain, right? It's helping people feel empowered
13:11
and capable and in control again. So it really
13:15
does. I would think. change that mindset, that
13:18
story from limitation to possibility. Right.
13:22
And I think a lot of times when people come to
13:26
me who've been to several doctors, a lot of the
13:31
patients I've received from the Cleveland Clinic
13:33
who live in the Michigan area here, they've been
13:36
to two, three, four neurologists before they
13:41
see this doctor at the Cleveland Clinic. who
13:45
has an interest in the McKinsey method and Cleveland
13:51
Clinic is very big on the McKinsey method. And
13:55
so he looks at them differently than other doctors
13:59
do. In other words, he looks at the big picture
14:03
and from the top down as opposed to just the
14:08
symptoms. Even when they come to me from him
14:11
and he's giving them some potential, you know,
14:15
for a different kind of approach. They're kind
14:18
of hesitant, they're leery, but we take plenty
14:23
of time and I really try to listen to their complete
14:28
story because it's a unique one. There's no two
14:33
patients who are alike. There's no two programs
14:37
for PT that are alike even if they have the same
14:39
diagnosis. because of so many factors that come
14:43
into play. So it's a time commitment, but it's
14:47
worth it if you can get to the bottom of their
14:49
problem and they're really grateful if that does
14:53
happen because it can literally change their
14:56
life. You know, you just said it. You said they're
15:00
grateful. You just said it. I mean, you're helping
15:02
people understand what's happening in their bodies.
15:05
And I'm guessing based on what you just said
15:07
with the person that had four neurologists, by
15:09
the time they got to, they're probably frustrated.
15:12
They're stuck. They're scared. Do you ever use
15:15
storytelling examples or analogies or, you know,
15:18
obviously not using names, but just to help the
15:22
patients shift from something's wrong with me
15:25
to maybe this is something that can improve.
15:29
Right. I do it. all the time in terms of especially
15:35
weaving in research that has been done that shows
15:41
there's potential for you to get better. For
15:43
example, I've had patients in their 80s who have
15:49
a lot of arthritis and you know they say well
15:53
how can you know how can I get any benefit. You
15:58
know, I'm so old. They just think aging, that's
16:00
the problem. But it's not just aging. There was
16:06
a study done with 90 plus year old patients.
16:11
Okay. They're in an assisted living place. And
16:15
I can't remember the exact numbers, but I'm going
16:17
to use 100 because it's easy to explain it. Okay.
16:22
So they take a hundred people over 90. And so
16:27
I sit down with the patient and explain this.
16:30
And they test the strength in their legs, you
16:35
know, on the various machine that can analyze
16:38
that very carefully. And they take half of them
16:41
and they put them on a strengthening program
16:44
right there in their facility, three times a
16:48
week. The other people, they just have them go
16:50
back to what they were doing. And they say, we're
16:52
going to have you back in eight weeks. I'm going
16:54
to retest you. And so in eight weeks, they retest.
17:00
People who did the exercise increased their strength
17:04
by over 100 percent. The other people, of course,
17:08
didn't. Nothing really changed. So then the next
17:12
part of the experiment was to take the 50 remaining,
17:16
take half of those and say, OK, you can go back
17:19
to what you're doing now. The other 50 continue
17:23
for another eight weeks. bring them all back,
17:26
test them. The ones who continue to exercise,
17:30
they're still doing great. These guys are starting
17:32
to lose it already. That sometimes will be a
17:37
real eye opener for patients and they say, well,
17:40
I'm only 83 or something. I guess I can get stronger.
17:45
A lot of times these people who have balance
17:47
issues, it's not anything in the inner ear. they're
17:52
losing strength in their legs over time. Research
17:56
shows that the older we get, the more our strength
18:00
goes down and the older we get, the more our
18:04
muscle mass goes down. You combine those two
18:07
things and then what used to be easy walking
18:10
or walking on an uneven surface or something
18:14
now is very difficult and you're worried about
18:17
your balance. So I often use stories like that
18:22
and I weave in research so that motivates them.
18:28
It gives them hope and there's an understanding
18:33
and then there's a motivation to act on the understanding
18:39
which leads to results, you know. Right, right.
18:44
So it's translating the research into the understanding
18:52
of the patient so that they can use that knowledge
18:55
to get better, get stronger, to get control of
18:59
their symptoms, that type of thing. And I would
19:02
imagine too it would be a real credibility piece
19:05
for you. When you're able to tell story after
19:08
story of patients who followed the plan, followed
19:12
their physical therapy plan, their exercise plan,
19:16
the strengthening plan for those areas of their
19:19
body that were the problem, I'm sure it really
19:23
reassures someone to say, okay, he's telling
19:26
a story and it resonates with me. He understands
19:29
me. He understands. my problem. He's got experience.
19:33
He's done this before. Right. And that gives
19:37
somebody an opportunity to be able to change
19:40
their narrative. Okay, I'm willing to try this.
19:42
I'm willing. There is possibility here. Yeah.
19:46
So one of the biggest problems in medicine in
19:48
general is that patients are only adherent to
19:55
the instructions given about one third of the
19:58
time. It's a really bad statistic. But I learned
20:05
that many years ago. And then I've heard recently
20:09
it's still about the same. And so I've been committed
20:13
since learning that, that my patients are going
20:17
to be better than one. That I am going to help
20:21
them understand the importance of their home
20:24
program. And that's the home program is even
20:28
more important than in the clinic because we
20:31
can only be in the clinic two or three days a
20:33
week but you are going to do this program seven
20:36
days a week you know and so most of my patients
20:42
are pretty adherent to their instructions to
20:46
get the best benefit and it starts with understanding
20:52
and however you can get that and I think stories
20:57
about former patients or research often motivates
21:03
them strongly. They feel if they did it, I think
21:06
I can do it. Do you feel like, I mean, I know
21:10
for me, I do better when I have a coach or I
21:14
have my physical therapist. You know, I have
21:17
that accountability person and the person who's
21:20
skilled and knows how to help me. And when I
21:23
do what they're suggesting, I feel better. Do
21:26
you have many long -term patients or is your
21:30
treatment model or plans usually sort of a little
21:34
more short -term? How does that usually work?
21:36
Or is it just dependent on whatever the condition
21:39
is? Yeah. Usually I don't see anybody for more
21:43
than two months. That's more exception than the
21:46
rule. Most of them are about a month, but I always
21:52
leave the door open. I say, you know, Call me
21:55
if there's an issue and we'll we'll deal with
21:58
it or if there's another area of the body that
22:01
is Concerning you sometimes I'll see a patient
22:05
and we'll for example today patient I'm seeing
22:10
him for his neck and It's getting better doing
22:14
well But then he said well, you know, I saw him
22:18
for his back I don't know six years ago something
22:20
like that and he said, you know, my back's been
22:24
acting up lately. I said okay well he's got an
22:29
appointment set up with his back doctor and I
22:31
said I know him I know that doctor really well
22:34
next time we'll do a little quick avail on your
22:37
back and I'll send him a note the goal is not
22:40
to keep the patient for a longer time it's for
22:44
them to become independent of practitioners so
22:48
that they think like a PT does. in terms of their
22:52
body mechanics and try to get them to stay on
22:55
a program. Like I had one lady recently, 95 years
23:00
old. I saw her six years ago. She's got a problem
23:04
going on right now. And she says, you know, I'm
23:06
still doing those exercises you showed me six
23:08
years ago. And she's sharp as a tack. She does
23:12
them like twice a day. So that's what I hope
23:16
to have. for each patient, that they stick with
23:19
their program over time, that they're motivated
23:22
enough to continue on with their program and
23:25
maintain independence. She lives by herself.
23:29
And I'm sure that has contributed to her doing
23:32
those exercises on a daily basis. I always say
23:36
the key to independence is mobility. And one
23:42
of the other things I think I read about you
23:45
is that you emphasize that movement is medicine
23:49
and that really what happens both physically
23:53
and mentally when somebody shifts their story
23:57
from, I need to rest and protect this, to I need
24:00
to move so that I can engage my body again. Yeah.
24:05
So with this idea of moving, there's been so
24:12
many studies done, really a bunch recently. where
24:15
they compared groups of people who were sedentary
24:18
to active, more active, over long periods of
24:22
time. And always what comes out of it is the
24:27
people who were more sedentary have more health
24:30
issues, don't live as long, and sometimes, you
24:38
know, mentally they tend to go down cognitively
24:43
as well. So moving increases blood flow to the
24:48
brain, which helps, let's say for dementia type
24:52
things, prevention, and do things to stimulate
24:55
the brain, but also get more circulation to the
24:58
brain. So many older patients, they want to stay
25:01
in their home. I had a patient one time who had
25:05
a back problem and a big old house, you know,
25:08
all the kids are gone, but she wanted to stay
25:10
in that house. She loved the house. And we would
25:13
do the back exercise with her and she'd feel
25:16
good and she'd go home and she'd come back next
25:19
time she's got the pain again. And I said, what'd
25:22
you do? Your exercise? And she said, have time
25:27
or something. And this kept happening a couple
25:29
of times. And I had to go to the story of you're
25:34
not moving enough. You're going to be losing
25:36
your strength and you're not going to be able
25:39
to stay in that house after a little while. you're
25:42
not going to be able to take care of it and you're
25:45
going to have to go someplace else. Well she
25:48
started doing the exercise and she started moving
25:51
and so she couldn't see down the road the consequence
25:58
but I could and I was able to explain that to
26:03
her and turned it around for her to get with
26:08
the program and stay independent. Yeah. Yeah,
26:13
it really is so important. So I want to talk
26:16
a little bit about restless leg syndrome. I was
26:21
introduced to restless leg syndrome by someone
26:23
that I was helping. And she talked a lot about
26:28
how it would happen in the middle of the night,
26:31
how nothing she did ever helped. Her doctor would
26:34
just put her on trazodone to get her to sleep
26:37
at night. We started talking about this and you
26:40
would let me know that you've been looking at
26:41
this condition or RLS, I think it's also called.
26:45
I know it can be very painful, very disruptive,
26:47
very uncomfortable. So for somebody who's dealing
26:50
with this, especially when it's affecting their
26:53
sleep, when it's leading to exhaustion, do you
26:57
ever hear from them? Like what's the story they're
26:59
telling themselves as to why this is happening?
27:03
And What are the things that you're saying to
27:08
them? What stories are you using to help them
27:11
get some understanding so that they can shift
27:14
their minds? Because, you know, sometimes I really
27:17
do believe healing can be a mind over matter.
27:20
What are you saying that can help them get to
27:22
that understanding so they can shift into taking
27:25
actions that are going to make it more manageable,
27:28
maybe even more hopeful? Okay. So first of all,
27:32
Restless leg is kind of a complicated condition.
27:36
A lot of patients have some type of issue with
27:41
iron in the body. That needs to be addressed
27:46
by a physician. And if that is the case and they
27:52
identify a solution for that through supplementation
27:58
or in some cases they do IV intervention. So
28:04
that is a case where it's a medical solution
28:06
to the problem. Let's say that takes care of
28:09
it. But a lot of people, they have it and they're
28:14
not sure, the doctors even, they're not sure
28:17
why they have it necessarily. And they have this
28:21
pattern of typically in the evening and sleeping
28:26
that they get these symptoms. But in general,
28:30
for people with restless legs, movement is beneficial,
28:35
trying to move more, especially in the evening.
28:39
Because what's the pattern of a lot of people?
28:42
They're busy during the day and then they sit
28:45
down after dinner for long periods. which could
28:50
contribute to leg issues because the longer you
28:56
sit, the more pressure builds up in your low
28:59
back. So there are a lot of patients who have
29:03
no back pain, but they have a back problem that
29:08
is in the legs. To give you an example of a patient
29:13
I had, she was 64. And she reported that she
29:18
had restless legs for 15 to 20 years. And she
29:24
even mentioned that when she was a teenager,
29:26
if they go on a long trip vacation, she'd be
29:30
sitting in the car and she said her legs would
29:32
feel weird. So anyway, she would be fine during
29:37
the day. She was a teacher's aide and she worked
29:40
for a few hours in the morning every day. No
29:42
symptoms. afternoon, no symptoms. She'd be busy
29:48
with house things. But then sometimes a little
29:52
later in the evening after sitting watching TV
29:55
for a while, she'd start to maybe get some and
29:57
then she was frequently waking up at night with
30:00
the symptoms. So she had gone to doctors and
30:03
the typical solution if it's not iron deficiency
30:08
issues is they put them on some kind of medication.
30:12
The medication usually makes them drowsy. Okay.
30:17
And it takes a little while to kick in. And so
30:20
it's not a great solution for people. And for
30:24
the general people with RLS, moving more in the
30:30
evening may help. Just doing that, getting up
30:33
every 20, 30 minutes, moving around for a couple
30:38
of minutes, that may help them. For a person
30:41
with a back issue, further back, exercise may
30:46
really help them. So we started working with
30:49
her and I saw her for a total of 13 visits and
30:55
I think two times a week for about six weeks.
30:59
Little by little she started getting control
31:02
of the symptoms and was having less and less
31:07
episodes at night. And then she was able to start
31:12
cutting down on her medication. By the end of
31:17
it, she had minimal nighttime symptoms, just
31:23
occasional. But she could always get rid of it
31:28
by doing the exercise. And she had really significantly
31:33
reduced her medication. What I've been doing
31:37
here, working with another therapist who's got
31:40
the McKenzie training as well, is we're trying
31:44
to identify these patients. It's hard to know
31:48
how to find them. So we put up a sign in the
31:51
lobby, just started doing this. And I did a presentation
31:54
last Monday at a senior center nearby, had 18
31:58
people come. So there's some interest there.
32:01
And we'll see how it goes. We're trying to identify
32:04
these folks and see if they might respond or
32:07
to back exercises. And that could really radically
32:11
change things because they could get off the
32:14
meds and control the symptoms with back exercises,
32:19
which would be ideal. Yeah. So that's where we're
32:24
at. Interesting. And it's just such a reminder
32:29
that we just don't realize how everything is
32:32
interconnected. You know, it's like your legs
32:36
and your back and your shoulders and your back
32:40
and, you know, everything is interconnected.
32:42
And one thing I want to say is that if you interviewed
32:48
other McKenzie trained therapists who've been
32:51
practicing for a few years, they would have very
32:55
similar stories about patients. There's nothing
32:58
special about me. I've had this great training
33:01
that I've been able to use and I'm just thankful
33:05
for it every day that I've had this training
33:07
because it puts me in a better position to help
33:10
people. You know, I would like to say that if
33:14
anybody's dealing with those kind of musculoskeletal
33:19
issues out there, they can go to the McKenzie
33:23
website, which is mckenzieinstituteusa .org.
33:29
And you can find a practitioner wherever you
33:32
live, pretty much. You just put in your state
33:36
and your zip code and the radius of 10, 25, 50
33:41
miles. And you should be able to find practitioners
33:44
that you could go to and get an evaluation. And
33:47
they may be able to help you deal with the issue
33:50
you're dealing with. So yeah, clearly one solution
33:54
is to go to the McKenzie site. But in your mind,
33:59
your experience, what is a belief that they really
34:02
should challenge? How can they start changing
34:05
their relationship with pain and moving towards
34:09
that better quality of life? It's a mindset that
34:18
you can't ever give up. You have to keep searching
34:22
for answers. That's hard when you've had a series
34:29
of failures, so to speak, or not good experiences.
34:36
But I would encourage people to keep searching.
34:41
And I feel, again, the McKenzie site for these
34:45
kind of problems. If you haven't had a McKenzie
34:48
avow, I don't think you've had a complete avow
34:53
of your condition. It's worth doing that and
34:59
knowing you've covered all the bases in my opinion.
35:04
Yeah. Yeah. Such good stuff. Well, I could keep
35:10
talking about this, but Ron, that's all the time
35:12
we have for today. Thank you so much for joining
35:15
us and reminding us, you know, storytelling doesn't
35:18
have these have to happen on a page or a stage.
35:21
Sometimes it just happens in the way we understand
35:24
our bodies, right? And maybe challenge what we've
35:27
been told. And it's just a really great way to
35:31
take back control of our healing, maybe one movement
35:33
at a time. Right. Absolutely. And to our listeners.
35:39
Whether you've first heard us locally through
35:42
BTV studios in Bedford, Massachusetts, or you're
35:45
tuning in from across the globe on Spotify, Apple
35:48
podcasts or Amazon podcasts. Thank you for listening.
35:52
We hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll see
35:54
you next time. Happy storytelling.