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Revitalizing Rural Mississippi, with Senator Rod Hickman · Real State

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  At this point, we have stopped the woe is Mississippi and we started betting on Mississippi
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  and I think that's making a world of difference.
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  This is Real State, a podcast from CSG South.
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  Join us as we talk with policymakers and public leaders shaping state-level decisions across
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  the South and explore how ideas move from policy to real impact.
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  Good morning and welcome to Real State.
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  I'm your host, Lindsey Gray.
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  Today, we're talking about rural opportunity from economic growth and workforce development
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  to education and literacy.
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  Across the South, rural revitalization has become one of the defining policy conversations
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  of this decade.
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  Not just about economic growth, but about whether communities can sustain opportunities
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  across generations.
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  In Mississippi, that conversation intersects directly with education and literacy.
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  Mississippi has recently been highlighted in national news for literacy trends and educational
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  reforms reshaping how students read, learn and prepare for success.
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  In 2013, Mississippi ranked 49th nationally in fourth grade reading scores.
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  Today, the state ranks 9th in the nation and leads the country in overall reading improvement.
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  That kind of shift doesn't happen by accident.
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  It reflects intentional policy decisions and its drawing national attention.
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  Today, we have Mississippi Senator Rod Hickman, who serves on the Senate Education Committee.
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  Is an adjoke law professor, practicing attorney, great dad as well, and represents communities
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  in Southwest Mississippi.
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  You are a very busy man, so thank you for carving out the time, Senator.
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  Absolutely.
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  I'm happy to be here.
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  So let's start with your view on the big picture and work our way into the policy work that Mississippi
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  has accomplished.
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  When you look at Mississippi's trajectory, what does that progress signal to you about what's
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  possible, particularly in rural communities, since that's a largely year district?
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  Looking at the success that we've made, particularly in education, it just shows that when we invest
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  in the right places, Mississippi can be successful at whatever we want to do.
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  We made some very great investments into our public education system, and the dividends
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  have been immeasurable.
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  I think Mississippi is definitely on an upward trajectory.
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  We just need to keep doing what we're doing.
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  As you said, in the intro, people from across the country are looking, figuring out what Mississippi
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  did.
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  Some people have coined it the Mississippi miracle.
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  Our teachers, while we love the publicity, they, like,
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  for us to say, the Mississippi marathon, because it's a time, it took a lot of hard work from
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  a lot of people.
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  And so it wasn't just the overnight miracle.
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  It was, you know, the legislative process, our department of education, all of these teachers,
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  putting in the work to make that happen.
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  And for me, it's a good sign for rural America, because most of Mississippi, compared to the
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  rest of the country, would be considered rural.
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  And I'm a big proponent or a big stickler for looking at how we can help rural America, because
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  rural America is so important to this country.
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  And sometimes I often think that we've been forgotten or swallowed up by, you know, the
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  urban areas that will have you.
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  But I think it's very important that people start back looking to rule Mississippi, rural
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  America in general, because it's going to be important to these communities and these
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  towns and villages are sustainable.
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  Absolutely.
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  And at CSG, we often talk about the idea that education policy is economic policy and
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  literacy isn't just about test scores.
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  It's about that long term mobility that you mentioned.
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  So I like that.
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  I will adopt that Mississippi marathon when folks are asking me because I have legislators
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  from across the South asking me about what you all have accomplished and what you've done.
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  And so I will start referencing the Mississippi marathon as well instead of Mississippi miracle,
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  because it is that long term mobility piece.
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  So Mississippi's rise from 49th to night nationally and fourth grade reading is significant.
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  But those literacy gains are only powerful if they translate into that long term opportunity
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  that we were kind of just getting into.
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  So how do you see Mississippi's literacy improvements connecting to that rural workforce readiness
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  over time?
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  Yeah, I think that, you know, I've dealt with some economic development projects and substance
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  I've been in a legislature.
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  And one of the things that employees want to know is not only do we have a good economy,
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  they want to know that we have the workforce that can actually do the job that needs to be
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  done.
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  And I think it all goes down to when you have a good education system and when you have things
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  that are working, when you have people, I mean, it's as simple as people being able to
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  read across this country.
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  People are graduating high school and not really able to read at the level that they should.
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  And that becomes important whether you can do these post-K through 12 certificate programs
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  or trainings or get a degree that you need to actually do the job.
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  And so I think it's hand in hand, but not only that, another thing that people look to is
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  when people want to move to a place, most people who have families, they want to make sure
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  that there is a good education system.
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  So being able to have these metrics and being able to assure this readiness and long-term
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  growth, we, I wasn't here in 2013 in particular, I've been along with our journey in a part of
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  our journey, but we picked that age because that's the most pivotal age, the most pivotal
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  grade to make sure that children are not left behind and they are learning or they have
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  the literacy component at the third grade.
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  So that, again, it speaks so much to future success.
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  And so that's why we chose that and I think it goes all the way into the workforce.
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  If you want to know that you haven't educated workforce, they can actually do what needs
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  to be done.
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  And I don't know the exact stat, but I've heard that third grade literacy and just education
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  is so pivotal and to your point, it really can point to their trajectory of not just only
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  workforce, but even in the correction system.
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  And it really is an indicator for their potential future.
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  Ensuring kids don't become statistics and they become success.
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  I think is really what y'all've honed in on this.
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  So we're seeing other states across the South study, really across the country, studying
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  Mississippi's approach to early literacy reform.
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  So from reading coaches to evidence-based instruction, can you just kind of talk us through what
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  you think Mississippi got right in its literacy strategy?
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  And particularly if any of strategies are really geared toward real communities, real districts,
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  or if it's just all over the state.
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  I think all those things that you mentioned helped us get it right.
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  Like literacy coaches and having this uniform curriculum brought everybody to the table
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  at the basis and made sure that everyone had what they need.
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  I think the literacy coaches, in my opinion, Far and beyond was a huge part of that equation.
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  That was a huge part of strategy because in a classroom, 16 to 20 some odd students,
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  you're going to have a couple of students at this level, you're going to have a couple of
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  few students here, you're going to have some students out here.
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  So be able to have not just a teacher in the classroom, but a literacy coach who can
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  go in and say, look, I can help this student get what they need.
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  This student needs a little more individualized, loving care or whatever.
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  I'm able to do that.
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  I think was vital and important.
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  I also think that a lot of people, they are not a fan of having so many tests and things
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  like that.
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  But you cannot measure what you have not tested or what you have not compared.
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  So I think that having those testing components in there are absolutely important.
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  A lot of people were really, really like up and on when we started to do that.
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  But I think they're seeing that the results are working because not only children are testing
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  what a test that matters.
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  So there's so many long term effects that that's like, you know, easy and test anxiety
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  or early we're doing this.
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  And there are some people, we understand, there are some people who struggle and all this,
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  but that's why again, we have literacy coaches.
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  We have so many opportunities for them to do it.
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  I think the system has worked really well.
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  And at the time, we didn't know.
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  We put our trust and we invested in something that we thought would work, but we had no
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  way of knowing and it paid off again.
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  I have to go back to it wasn't just the people in this building.
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  It wasn't just the department of education.
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  It really was those people on the grounds, those teachers, those literacy coaches that we
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  put our trust in and made investment into them and they've invested into the children of
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  Mississippi.
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  And again, the ROI is through the roof.
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  And literacy is a part of it, but also yells math scores have considerably increased as
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  well.
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  So from your perspective as a policy maker and a professor, what are the next steps to
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  ensure these gains reach every community and continue to go and that marathon just continues
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  to run?
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  So I actually sat on like the committee, we are, we've changed our accountability metrics
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  for school districts and schools because the trigger has been hit in our trigger, like
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  if certain amount of our school districts are certain level and then we go in and we
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  re-adjust our accountability standards, we've done that because we believe that as we grow
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  our accountability standards should grow.
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  And so that's one thing that we've done, but this year we've implemented some wood of
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  a math, math gate or kind of the same approach we took with literacy, we've done that in
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  math.
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  And so well, we haven't done it yet, it's actually going through a legislative process that
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  we want to do something very similar for math and we've seen other states take our model
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  for literacy and they translate into math.
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  So we're actually following some other states on what they've done regarding math.
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  And so I think that we just have to keep watching and you know, somebody said in a committee
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  meeting and I loved it that if we give our students the tools or we trust them or we invest
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  in our students, they're going to prove, they're going to be up to the challenge and
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  sort of more we challenge them, the more we require them to come up to our accountability
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  standards, they're just going to outperform every single time.
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  And so we've at this point we have stopped the woe is Mississippi and we started betting
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  on Mississippi and I think that's making the world a different decision.
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  Well, reading and math literacy is the foundation, but workforce alignment is where education
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  translates into economic impact.
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  So I want to thread that needle just a little bit and move from, you know, just into how education
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  feeds that workforce pipeline.
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  So you've worked on legislation connecting education to real world skills, including efforts
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  around financial literacy and post-secondary readiness.
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  So how do you view the connection between early literacy, high school preparation and long
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  term workforce participation?
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  Yeah, I think it all ties in together.
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  You know, if we can give our students the fundamentals, they can go out and be successful at whatever
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  they want you need to do.
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  You know, when I was graduating high school, everybody, the thing was to go to a four-year college,
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  get a degree and go and make millions of dollars was the idea.
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  Our home, and that's not the case anymore.
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  And there are some really, really, really, I mean smart, intelligent young people who said,
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  "Look, I don't want to go to a four-year college.
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  I want to pick up a trade or I want to do this and I want to go out and be in the real
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  world."
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  And we're going to translate by giving our students a proper base.
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  They can go out and do whatever they want to.
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  You still, I mean, we still need researchers.
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  We need PhDs.
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  We need all of these.
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  But we also need people who are doing real skills, who are staying in our communities and
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  staying at home.
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  One of the things I'm really, really, really big on and it is my passion as a legislator
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  and in life in general is having people remain in the real communities that birthed them.
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  A lot of times, unless you've been in a really real place, I don't think people understand
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  when we say, like, for many of us, success is defined by getting out.
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  And I wish we could change that stigma.
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  You can stay in Sugar Lock, Mississippi and still be successful if you want to.
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  And you can go.
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  I'm not saying, hey, if the city is calling you, go to the city, but I think we need to remove
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  the stigma.
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  Like, oh, they made it.
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  They got out.
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  They made it.
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  They wanted to go, so they left and that's fine, but also like, they stayed and they are successful
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  that creates success.
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  And so that's a large part of it.
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  And I said that a long way around to set people who get trades and people who traditionally
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  go from high school into like a trade program or straight into work.
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  Those are the people who tend to stay around and raise families and do those types of things.
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  So I think it's vital and important.
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  But Mississippi is also at this point, we have a couple of different diploma path types.
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  And some of them are leaning very heavily on workforce development.
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  And we've found that a lot of times, even in my career, a lot of it's on the job training.
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  So if employees know that you have the base that they can then get you and do your training,
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  or you get a six month certificate, that works.
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  One of the other things that I don't think is there that I do in my law practice, I do
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  represent a community college.
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  So I kind of see the work there.
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  And we've been able to partner with developments and offer a carb.class just for this project that's
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  coming here or for this manufacturer or for this entity that's coming here.
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  And we've been able to do carb.
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  Six month class.
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  We teach it on our campus and do these types of things.
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  So I said all that said, we can get them the base.
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  If our students are performing at the level of everyone across this country, when they graduate
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  the 12 grade, a lot of these jobs, the training is easy beyond that, but it's just having capacity.
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  And I think that's your story too.
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  I mean, you could live anywhere and go do anything.
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  And I know that you moved out of your hometown for a little while and then you came back and
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  it's just always called you back.
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  And I think that's part of your personal story that you've shared with me before as well.
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  So I love that.
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  That's not just a fairy tale that people want to stay.
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  They can be successful.
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  That's truly your lived experience.
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  So I love that you bring that into the work that you're continuing to do and you are so close
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  with your family and it's just really wonderful to see.
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  And when you find those million dollar paying jobs, please let me know.
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  Bring me with you.
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  Bring me with you.
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  You're the first column.
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  Well, in South Mes Mississippi, the workforce needs look different than those in metro areas.
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  So where do you see the most pressing workforce gaps in your district or across Mississippi right
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  now in some of those rural communities?
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  You know, a lot of it is just opportunity.
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  Everybody wants to have everybody wants to have a dignified lifestyle and dignified like
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  people want to work.
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  A lot of it is just opportunity.
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  Even in my campaign, I've said this from day one and I still believe, believe it until
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  now, Mississippi's greatest resources as people.
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  Our people just need an opportunity to shine and when we do that, we can.
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  And so a lot of it is opportunity.
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  A lot of it is government having to make the investment that they need because again, I
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  look into economic development.
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  I want to make sure rural areas prosper.
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  And a lot of it, it comes down to having the workforce and then to having the infrastructure
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  for things to be where they need to be.
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  And so I think a lot of it is opportunity just having the ability to work.
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  Like there are people in my community that wake up every morning, leave the house at four
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  o'clock and get back at like seven or eight because they're driving two hours to work every
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  morning and two hours back home every day.
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  And so again, a lot of it is just opportunity near home and that puts a drag on anyone.
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  And the other thing is like these opportunities could come, but our state and local government
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  always have to make the investment in the right places.
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  One of the things is like site development.
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  People want to come in and be able to push shovel to ground when they have these economic
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  developments.
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  And so infrastructure is important.
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  And getting all that done.
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  And I think that's where the state and again, government comes in and making sure that
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  these places are prepared when we have these opportunities to come.
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  So I think the biggest disconnect is that because I think we have the ability.
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  One of the things I want to brag on Mississippi way before this, I think we have the ability
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  to think we have one of the best community college systems in the country.
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  And so we've always had the ability to on the spot, if you, if Lindsey say, I want to open
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  Lindsey Mangu-Facturing or whatever in Mississippi, before you get Lindsey Mangu-Facturing off
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  the ground, our community college will have trained your workforce that you need.
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  And so again, I said this 26 times at this point, and I think it goes back to opportunity.
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  That's the biggest disconnect is our people having and having those opportunities for
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  more.
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  And on opportunities and training workforce and moving to the infrastructure conversation
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  that you, you're having.
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  So Mississippi has been expanding career and technical education pathways, also known as
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  CTEs and strengthening community college partnerships.
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  And you've seen that directly in your district and been a part of that.
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  So what does effective CTE look like in a rural district and how do we ensure it truly
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  aligns with employer demand?
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  I mean, you were kind of getting at it with Lindsey, manufacturing, but I'd love to
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  just tone in on some of the real world experiences that you've seen at the community colleges
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  that you're partnering with.
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  So I love that because that's what I say.
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  I think we have one of the best community college systems.
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  One of the things I find in our community colleges are doing with major employers in the
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  area, they're asking them like, hey, what do you need?
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  And they're adopting and bringing in those programs and training people on that.
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  Like if you need welders, we're going to start a welding class.
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  If you need HPEC people, we're starting HPEC classes.
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  And so that's been one of the things that, and that's why our community colleges have
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  this ability to adjust.
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  I'm glad you asked that question because one of our community colleges and one of our
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  high schools in my district just so happens that the CTE director at the high school and
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  the community college CTE, their husband and wife.
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  And so they took a trip and I can't remember, I wish I could remember what country they
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  took a trip and it may have been Germany.
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  They took a trip to a country and looked at what they're doing with.
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  They are basically training in community college and what they came up with is that the
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  reason why a lot of them are successful is they have direct partnerships and where in
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  your high school CTE, you're taking basically phase one of your certification and then when
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  you get to the community college, you're already in phase two and you have a very trained
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  employee on exactly what you need.
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  And I think that's what community college, not community college.
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  I think that's what the trade industry needs to work like.
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  The CTE in high school should get you a phase one of something whether it's welding,
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  carpentry, H-FAC, all of that.
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  You go in a very skilled student already and you finish this last however much time you
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  need to finish.
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  I think that's a perfect example of how to make our community college systems, our trade
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  and CTE actually work and give us students those opportunities because a lot of people
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  now they know what they want to do way more than I ever knew what I wanted to do when our
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  high school.
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  So given the most opportunities to do this, I think is important.
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  And we are seeing that Europe model, that you're referencing.
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  Lots of policymakers are talking about that and around credentialing, our micro credentialing
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  and apprenticeships and CTEs and just how it all works together and helping someone move
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  through that faster but also making sure that they are fully trained.
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  All the important needs that they need to know and another benefit that you just pointed
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  out is in those rural, smaller communities, you know, you likely know the person very closely
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  that you could work with and partner with in order to make something like this happen
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  so much faster and so that's another benefit of those rural communities.
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  So one of the persistent challenges in rural states with rural communities which, I mean,
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  largely is the South too, is not just preparing talent but retaining it.
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  So what policies help ensure that students who benefit from improved literacy or workforce
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  training can build careers in their home communities?
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  You know, that's one of, if I'll start by saying thank you, I feel like a pageant girl,
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  thank you for that question.
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  But that is the million dollar question and it's something I've poked that ever since I got
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  in the legislature, how do we retain our talent?
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  How do we keep our best start brightest?
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  Because I know that I go to any major city in this country and of course I go to comforts
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  and all that kind of stuff I travel and I'm always running into somebody that's from Mississippi
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  that's like very high up in whatever they're doing because it shows that we have the talent
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  and I'm sure every rural state can say the same but of course I'm from Mississippi so I see
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  it.
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  And my question always is is like how do you keep these talent here and what can you
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  do?
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  And I'm sorry, I don't know the answer but some of the things that I've worked on like this
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  year and it's this year I had a, I called it a conversation starter.
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  Rural, rural, rural Mississippi is struggling with like legal assistance like lawyers, we're,
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  all of our lawyers are in basically Jackson or on the coast or in North Mississippi and
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  our rural areas don't have lawyers like take my county for instance.
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  There are three attorneys in my county, me and the, the other two are over 70, one doesn't
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  take any matters is going to require him to go to court, he only does like transactional
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  land work and stuff like that and the other one is not a resident.
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  He lives like an hour away, he comes in and so that's it for legal representation in my
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  entire county.
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  And so that's one of the things that I've kind of been really looking at and I dropped some
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  legislation issue that we create like basically a rural lawyers program where it will provide
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  stipends for people who went into an area that's deemed to be rural and started practice and
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  they stayed there five years.
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  Basically it would provide a loan if they stayed there five years the loan would be forgiven
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  and XYZ.
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  I think we just have to invest in rural areas.
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  I don't know, I haven't thought of any other way except the state and other entities and
• 23:23
  whether that be public private partnerships or whoever saying we want to put our money
• 23:27
  where our mouth is and if rural America is important, we've got to invest in rural America.
• 23:32
  But we also have to invest in the people that are staying there that are doing the work,
• 23:35
  that are providing the services in all of those types of things and I think that's going
• 23:40
  to be crux as we've got to make the investment and whether that is in like having data-driven
• 23:46
  research done or if that is creating programs like apprenticeships and paid programs where
• 23:55
  people start whatever they need in their rural communities outside of like lawyer.
• 23:59
  Mississippi has a great rule physician program and stuff like that.
• 24:03
  So we're trying but I don't have the ultimate answer but I do say that it is something.
• 24:09
  I won't necessarily say it keeps me up at night but it worries me at the direction at
• 24:12
  rural America it has continued to decline and I don't think people understand that unless
• 24:18
  we do something these communities won't be able to just support themselves and this country
• 24:24
  needs rural America.
• 24:26
  Like we are producers, we provide what we we're poor into the economy, we do all these things
• 24:32
  and so it's important that we do that and so hey, if anybody is listening, y'all come
• 24:36
  help me figure out what we need to do and help me find the answer to this question.
• 24:39
  And we are hearing a lot about that, rural physicians that came up in episode one with
• 24:44
  speaker burns out of Georgia.
• 24:46
  We are hearing a lot about rural veterinarians particularly large poor animals.
• 24:53
  We're hearing concerns about accountants in rural areas that they're in lawyers as you just
• 24:58
  mentioned so that is absolutely a trend that we're continuing to see not just with physicians
• 25:05
  and nurses but with those other practices that individuals need and you gave a perfect
• 25:12
  example of only three attorneys in a whole county and then how limited in scope that
• 25:17
  they could be.
• 25:18
  So the next kind of section and of what I wanted to talk about is also about that infrastructure
• 25:24
  piece.
• 25:25
  So, rural revitalization is not just about that work for Spiceland that we were just talking
• 25:29
  about but it's about whether communities have stability and infrastructure to support
• 25:34
  that opportunity.
• 25:35
  So you represent a region with deep cultural and economic roots and what are constituents
• 25:41
  telling you about the biggest barriers to stability, whether it's healthcare access
• 25:45
  or housing or broadband or infrastructure so that other piece of it not just being a
• 25:51
  workforce, a pipeline issue but also just quality of life and competitiveness.
• 25:58
  Yes, I think all the bad.
• 26:04
  But I think about it like if I had to hone in on something in that one, it is housing.
• 26:12
  Housing is the issue I think everywhere for everyone and the lieutenant governor put together
• 26:21
  a study committee on housing over the summer and we looked into what some of the issues
• 26:26
  are and we found that that's deeply connected to our infrastructure problem is that like
• 26:31
  I've found that even in my small town you can be right across the highway and we can't
• 26:38
  provide you water because it's going to cost us $50,000,000,000 to get across this highway
• 26:44
  to get you water and so people are having a dig wells and so nobody is going to, not
• 26:50
  everybody is going to have the ability to dig your own personal well and that's adding
• 26:54
  $1000 a cost before the shovel ever hits the ground is getting those utilities there and so
• 26:59
  one of the things I also looked into this year, I was fortunate of our housing chairman actually
• 27:06
  one mayor of the city of Jackson and in this new shake up of committees, lieutenant governor
• 27:11
  made me the chairman of our housing committee and one of the things that we looked at is the
• 27:16
  state putting together basically like an infrastructure grant for developments and it will require
• 27:22
  a public private partnership like a local municipality or water district could apply for these funds
• 27:30
  along with a private partner who's either going to do a development, a housing development
• 27:36
  there or economic development that's coming in and it was like a 4060 match like the local government
• 27:41
  and the private entity needed to come up with the 40% and then we match it at the state level at a low
• 27:48
  low interest rate 20 year long so that they could build a development of housing and stuff like that
• 27:55
  and one of the things that we did in that piece of legislation, we also added that if you took
• 27:59
  advantage of this revolving home pool, you could restrict lots of the house sizes and what we found
• 28:05
  even in rural communities are a lot of places are restricting lot sizes and house sizes and that's
• 28:11
  what's contributing to this housing crisis I think that's across the country and so that's
• 28:18
  something that we're looking into that's also was a conversation started piece a lot of things that
• 28:23
  require money around this place you know you got to work on them for a long time because you got to
• 28:27
  find the money you got to do all those things so it's sort of very important piece of the conversation
• 28:33
  but I think housing everywhere is ultimately an issue but also aging infrastructure and that you know
• 28:40
  a lot of our water systems and stuff they're crumbling like I have this rule water association
• 28:46
  that that is something that kind of keeps me up at night because I think one leak and you got hundreds
• 28:54
  of people that are without water for a long time because they don't have the money in their treasury
• 28:58
  they I mean they just run all schools so they haven't up their rates since the 80s so they don't have
• 29:03
  money but they're also the infr the whole system is so aged at one and I say a water leak that's
• 29:11
  facetious but one major thing happening could put these people out water I'm not talking for a day or
• 29:16
  two I'm talking like ever almost like we they got to redo the whole thing so those kind of things
• 29:23
  bother me because again we have a aging infrastructure and at a time roll America was booming
• 29:29
  and we're not so much anymore and so you need the money to fix these things and upgrade these things
• 29:33
  on a lot of people didn't have the foresight to do the maintenance or whatever was needed to be done
• 29:38
  at that time so there are some persisting issues with rule America and unfortunately I don't know
• 29:47
  if policy work is really what's the cure for that more of we need to put some economic resources in
• 29:54
  these areas if we want them to throw out yeah I mean rule competitiveness it's this is beyond just
• 29:59
  Mississippi this is every state right that rule competitiveness definitely goes beyond just
• 30:04
  employment numbers as you were talking about and these initiatives like you've discussed today require
• 30:10
  both public and private alignments so are and you've talked about a couple but these are bipartisan
• 30:17
  issues are you seeing support from across the aisle for both sides both parties and momentum around
• 30:23
  policies that support rule communities or efforts initiatives let to your point it's not always just
• 30:29
  policy are you seeing that momentum from both sides of the aisle to work together and come together
• 30:35
  on this absolutely I think that you know everybody in this building I mean had touched
• 30:43
  rule Mississippi some type of a way and I would say 90% of the people in this building represent
• 30:50
  a portion of some rule part of this state and so everybody's concerned I think a part of it is
• 30:58
  and it doesn't matter from which side of the aisle it's just that let's be honest in Mississippi
• 31:02
  um the Republicans are the majority until they control the checkbook and I think even if we were in
• 31:06
  the majority and had to check but you have a infinite number of resources and so the question is
• 31:14
  whether you care enough to pull from already strained purse to invest in this particular thing in
• 31:21
  that area and that is where we're starting to most of the things I mentioned I said our conversation
• 31:28
  started we're starting to start the conversation I think people are people are listening saying yeah
• 31:33
  we're gonna have to do something and maybe this year's just not the year and so I don't want to say
• 31:38
  that people aren't listening people aren't caring it's just a matter of if I have a light bill a water
• 31:43
  bill a phone bill a wifi bill a card note and my mortgage do which thing am I going to pay first
• 31:50
  and it's a matter of putting the issues in rule Mississippi to the top of the list and that's what
• 31:56
  I'm trying to do and again it's not a partisan thing um it's it's absolutely far from partisan um because
• 32:03
  I mean most rural areas actually are Republican and not even Democrat and I'm so it's far from
• 32:09
  partisan but I am just trying to make sure that I get the right people to elevate rural communities to
• 32:15
  this level and where they become this is the first bill I'm going to pay for rural America to succeed
• 32:22
  over the next decade what do you think will be the defining education to economy connector now I
• 32:29
  know that is a loaded question uh and I'm asking for one defining thing for a complex and multi-layered
• 32:37
  topic but if you just were to pull one thing one priority out that you think would really move the
• 32:44
  needle for that education to economy connector what would that be from your perspective just off the
• 32:50
  bat at first thought I think it's going to be like real financial literacy um I absolutely think that
• 33:00
  if we're going to have an economy that thrive we have to have people who understand money and how it
• 33:04
  works um and if individuals are thriving then the economy as a whole is thriving so I think that
• 33:11
  personal investment in financial literacy so people understand because the more burdens that I am
• 33:17
  able to bear for myself the less that I have this spread among society and so having that financial
• 33:23
  literacy p I think helps uh every economy in general and it it goes to having all of the things I mean
• 33:30
  I'm an attorney by profession and so looking at that just having financial literacy and people
• 33:37
  having all the things they need like insurance is one of the examples like having card insurance
• 33:41
  society didn't have to bear the burden of someone getting hurt we can take care of that ourselves that
• 33:46
  we have the insurance and that that all comes down to financial literacy is having enough money
• 33:51
  to pay all of these you need to pay having enough money to or being able to use the money in a way
• 33:56
  that it sustains you and you're taking care of all of your needs and and that so I think the best
• 34:01
  connector to the economy and education is making sure that we're teaching financial literacy and
• 34:06
  we're teaching people how to use money because money spends different now it means just
• 34:10
  it's just a reality of it I need a financial literacy class the way this economy is looking
• 34:15
  and I remember coming out of high school and they used to teach us how to balance a checkbook
• 34:21
  and do things like that and I'm not sure that that's happening anymore so um you know
• 34:25
  I checked book what is that I know I get laughed at for that too
• 34:29
  do we even write checks anymore I still have a checkbook but I I
• 34:34
  I still have a checkbook but I'm saying like I'm thinking about like young people are
• 34:38
  I know if I hand it right people come out of high school now checkbook they're like what is this thing
• 34:42
  right you know it'd probably be a new tick-tock like handing people a checkbook saying hey do you
• 34:47
  know what this is can you feel this out it will eventually hit a museum along with all the pennies
• 34:51
  it just be a relic and that will be something we tell our kids at Grand Kits about what day
• 34:58
  I was I was just being called a checkbook so um to kind of round this out and before I move into
• 35:05
  my signature question um what you know people are watching Mississippi with literacy and so financial
• 35:12
  literacy is is wrapped in there too but in this transferable model I mean they're all looking
• 35:17
  at Mississippi as a potential transferable model because of the great numbers that y'all have had
• 35:22
  so kind of going back to that what lessons would you share with other state policy makers from
• 35:27
  you know your experience in Mississippi with that if if they call and they ask or when you see them at
• 35:32
  the Southern Legislative Conference just July what would you tell them about your experience around
• 35:39
  boosting your numbers and this whole conversation what advice would you give um first is very cliche
• 35:46
  but I absolutely mean it um believe in our kids like sometimes we have to make the hard decisions
• 35:52
  but trust the day will rise to the occasion and and and secondly would be um believing your teachers
• 35:58
  our teachers are incredibly amazing people they get up every day and they go out there and they do a
• 36:04
  job that most of us could not do um and so believing them trusting them make sure they have the resource
• 36:11
  in the tooth necessary you know again I wasn't here in 2013 but I heard it was a very scary time
• 36:16
  like people didn't know what was gonna happen if this was gonna work if we're you know we're gonna
• 36:20
  mess up our kids and all of that but Mississippi took a bet and we made some hard decisions and so
• 36:26
  sometimes you have to make very hard decisions but I would say the biggest thing is to use evidence
• 36:33
  base uh information you use the data look at the data know what works for your state and for your
• 36:39
  area and again bet on your children and bet on your teachers and I promise you won't be on the wrong side
• 36:44
  well thank you for saying focused on the long term outcome the long term outcomes um
• 36:50
  even when short term pressures can dominate I know especially during the legislative session
• 36:56
  that is a very real thing for all legislators it are those kind of short term pressures but staying
• 37:01
  focused on that long game betting on your children I think that's a great message every you know
• 37:07
  everything that we do around here is like gonna either like blow up the world or change the
• 37:11
  world for the better and most of the time it just moves the needle a little bit and as long as
• 37:16
  we're going to write direction we're okay but you're absolutely right like you know we're here for three
• 37:20
  months and everything is earth shattering during these three months but we're really looking toward
• 37:26
  long-term uh uh generational and sustainable things yeah would it close out the podcast I've been asking
• 37:33
  our state leaders this signature question so what's the best piece of professional advice you've
• 37:39
  ever received and how does it influence the way you lead today that's easy so
• 37:46
  I think in it I don't know if it's the best piece of like professional advice ever but since I
• 37:52
  was a legislator so I'm gonna go there um and it actually lead no joke not buttering up C.S.B.
• 37:59
  style but it came from cows and I lead with this every day is always a soon positive intent from the
• 38:08
  people that you're working with and it has literally been my guiding stars of legislators like
• 38:13
  especially being um in a minority party um and it I look I now look at my chamber and I always say
• 38:23
  99% of these people in here 99% of the time want to make this to be better we just disagree
• 38:28
  how to do it and that I'm looking at whatever anybody in this chamber is doing that there's a
• 38:35
  positive intent behind it their worldview just may be different in mind and we're probably trying
• 38:39
  to say it saw the same problem they just see it different than I see it and it has allowed me to
• 38:46
  always see my colleagues as individuals and humans and the issue as the issue and we can have a
• 38:53
  heated drag out debate on the floor and I can still go to dinner I can still talk to people I can
• 38:58
  still share coffee because I now have always a soon positive intent until I'm showing otherwise
• 39:05
  and so I think that has been like a guiding light for me in a legislature and I think it has been a
• 39:11
  big part of my success in that I'm able to work with anybody on any issue at any time and I think
• 39:16
  people around me have recognized that leadership recognizes that and I'm not this ultra uh
• 39:22
  sore person in the corner because I lose we lose a lot we're the minority um but at the end of the day
• 39:28
  I always assume that my colleagues they have a positive intent for what they're doing we just
• 39:32
  disagree on how to do it and maybe their way of working maybe Mrs. Abel be better even if I disagree
• 39:36
  with it on the onset we get to see that among so many states where um like you said you maybe have a
• 39:43
  heated policy debate and disagree on how to get there but at the end of the day all are still
• 39:47
  colleagues and clinking glasses and having um dinner and you know each other's families and
• 39:55
  that's something that I think is an unknown about the state legislatures that that is truly
• 40:00
  something we see among all of our states is happening and so sometimes the media would would like
• 40:06
  for us to believe otherwise or uh you know maybe it's different on the federal level but on the state
• 40:10
  level I see it every day it's one of the benefits wonderful benefits of my job so I'm glad that
• 40:15
  you brought that to the forefront and um I'm glad you learned that advice at cows that warms my heart
• 40:20
  exactly exactly well to wrap us up Mississippi story particularly in literacy and the workforce pipeline
• 40:28
  in rural communities is drawing national attention and your work at the intersection of education and
• 40:34
  rural opportunity is an important part of that story so senator hickman thank you for that this
• 40:40
  thoughtful conversation sharing your perspectives and your passion for the people in the communities
• 40:44
  you serve and your service in the state government thank you for having me I love that you carved out
• 40:51
  the time thank you so much and to our listeners thank you for joining us we uh will continue exploring
• 40:57
  the leadership decisions and policy choices shaping state government across the south more episodes are
• 41:03
  available at csg south org i'm lindsey gray let's keep it real thank you for joining us today on
• 41:11
  real states where we keep it real about what really matters