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AIM High: Building a high performing leadership team · Two in Twenty

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another episode of AI, the podcast that help marketers in investment management.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Georgina Field or Twink Field.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the CEO of White Marble and Director of the Association of Investment Marketers.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: In today's podcast, we are talking about building high-performing leadership teams or high-performing teams more generally.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: What do they look like?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And some tips for how to sort of inject some better processes and better culture into the teams that you operate in.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: We've got some brilliant speakers today, as always, I hope.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we have Farley Thomas, who is an executive coach from True Dawn, and also Andy Brown, who was at Waypoint and now director and founder of Etc.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: The White Marble team work with both of them and both have some brilliant perspectives on this.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So here we go.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: So hello and welcome.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much to Andy and Farley for joining me today to talk about developing high performing teams.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: It would be great if you could each introduce yourselves and maybe a bit of your background in this area.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Should we start with you, Andy?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, hi Twink, hi Farley.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't have a background in um developing leadership teams.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody does.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: We all start off with real jobs.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: I started off as a researcher and then ended up in ad agencies, um, working with clients and on strategy, and eventually found my way leading some businesses.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and given that creative agencies and ad agencies are typically um all about people and how you can leverage the best out of those people, I ended up developing some leadership skills, um, some would say.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and eventually I got to the point where I became an advisor to businesses um rather than simply working in in one at a time.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I currently work um as a as an advisor to growth businesses looking to grow um fundamentally.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: But the the principles of that are based around leadership and people and and um developing human resourcing capacity.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um, I mean, very similar ending to Andy's in that I'm working with companies that have ambitions to grow and the emphasis on the people within them.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um what I bring is um um a coaching skill set, um, as well as leadership experience and management experience, having worked through the um worked through the the real jobs that Andy talked about.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and my my career basically was in financial services, pretty much asset management uh for most of it, and some investment banking thrown in to create a bit of stress, uh, which then led me to want to set up my own business about five, six years ago, which um I'm happy to say that I did.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that business now is is focused on working with clients across different sectors, uh, by and large focusing on um working one-to-one with the CEOs of those businesses as their coach, but increasingly working with different layers within the business, either groups of managers or the board, to help them work as effectively as possible.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know whether this is just because um in my role at White Marble and in working with both of you, I'm uh my ears are a bit more open to the ways of coaching and and mentoring, but it does definitely seem that we hear more and more about it.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just wonder whether you had a view as to why this is trending the way it is, or maybe it's just that I've come to it a little later.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Farley, do you have a thought on that?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, the funny thing is I think you know, I I sort of um I definitely see that there's twice as much interest in coaching today compared to say five years ago.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um, you know, as to as to the why, I mean, there's definitely been coaching going on for a long, long time.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: It probably you know didn't have as as clear a definition or a label.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a thing.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it it wasn't a profession.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, certainly having transitioned from being a coach without knowing it, and then you know, qualifying as a coach over several years and being a professional coach now, I can definitely say that there are some significant differences in how I work with people.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: But the the rise in demand, uh I mean, I'd say two things.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: One, it's gone from being something to do when you have problems in your team to realizing that it's worth investing in people to get the best out of them.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an even better time to invest when there isn't the problem.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second thing I would say is that individuals are starting to realize that um when they're really listened to and and helped, they thrive.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's a combination of companies wanting to sponsor coaching because they they can now target it at 95% of the people in the company rather than 5% who are causing problems.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then as you experience coaching conversations, it becomes quite addictive.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so you want more.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: But that would be my take on why there's this phenomenal growth.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's an absolute um burgeoning demand for coaching and mentoring.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's undoubtedly true, and probably for the reasons that Farley's just said, um, that there are a lot of people who now claim to be coaches.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a bit like marketing.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone kind of understands it, everyone knows broadly what it is and what it feels like.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: And if they've done it once and someone goes, That was great, you should do it more often, they can call themselves a coach and suddenly they're off and running.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's there is more to it than that, as there is with marketing, as there is with any of these apparently simple and easy things to do.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, there's but there is no shortage of demand.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think it feeds on itself a bit instinctively.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: There have been coaches forever.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and the people who are listening to this now thinking, you know, this is something that really appeals to me, this is something I I can relate to, are the people who've instinctively been coaching anyway.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's the quality of that coaching and the impact of that coaching is now becoming more of a concern for people, I think.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's really where we we head towards high-performing team.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's where it's heading.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just before we get into the sort of the wider team dynamic, I guess all good teams need good leaders.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I wondered, do you guys use profiles or approaches to identify certain leadership styles?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and kind of what qualities do you do you need to be a good leader, do you think?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I I I I I I guess I struggle with the segmentation of leaders.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um over time I've kind of dabbled with trying, uh, been inspired by reading some books where apparently there are four types or six types or eight types, or and I've concluded that it's futile to try and do that because I'm not too sure it helps anyone.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: What I've found to be really fruitful is to meet individuals as individuals and try and figure out what what's what's their ace, what's the what's their one what what are their ace cards?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the cards that probably got them to be successful and got them into leadership positions.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, if they if they can cut if they can pull off um the balancing act of continuing to play their ace cards and maybe add one or two and perhaps you know deal with some things that are maybe holding them back, then they're gonna continue to be successful.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um the second part of your question, Twink, on the qualities.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, if I look at it from the point of view of great teams, um you you know, I I feel there are four things that great leaders ought to be doing or sort of instinctively do.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: One, they pay proper attention to each person that they're responsible for directly.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly, you know, I kind of really feel good when somebody's paying me attention.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I can imagine it feels really good if you're if if you're at least paying somebody in your team attention.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is not often talked about as a thing, but I think paying attention to people is is is is time consuming and sometimes draining, but really rewarding.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that leads on to the second and third things, which are both psychological in nature.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of them is getting more more airtime now, but creating a sense of psychological safety, whereby individuals in the team are willing to take interpersonal risk, sort of disclose something, or take a punt, you know, have a stab at something and not feel that they'd be crushed for getting it wrong.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the second psychological thing, which is maybe really relevant now, is what I'm calling psychological togetherness.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of research that shows that leaders that give everyone a sense that they're working on something together, even if in reality everybody is really working on their own on something, this togetherness really boosts morale and fires up the team.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then and then the fourth thing I would say is great leadership, you know, great leadership quality is taking time again to communicate and connect the team to something bigger, which might be the company's goals or the purpose of the whole enterprise.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say if if I were defining a brilliant leader, they'd be people that do these four things their way, but definitely do them, and the team benefits as a result.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Andy, would you have anything to add on either of those elements, I guess, the kind of persona side of things and and the qualities?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: So personas um I I I'm I'm a fan of personas in as much as they give you, they move a conversation forwards, they give people some way of connecting to a way of thinking about themselves and how they behave in relation to others.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: So it's their good mechanism for that.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: But I do feel they're a little bit like astrology.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, there are there are 12 star signs in astrology, and at any point in time, so that means 700 million people on the planet are having the same lucky week.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so if you're uh if you're a a red type leader, or you know, it it I worry about it a bit that it it it generalizes.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I've also heard it weaponized as well.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: And um you hear those conversations where someone will say, Well, of course, you would say that you you're a red, or you're this type of leader, you would you would behave like that, and unfortunately that that then creates far more barriers um to the to the conversation.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I tend to think they are less helpful than helpful beyond a certain point.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, in terms of good leaders, uh, I I love the way Farley defined that, and um, I wrote that down, so I'm gonna be stealing it.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I the the three things that I tend to think of are be present, great leaders are present.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, those people you you met when early on in your career who who you just felt like the only person in the room.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, leadership's no different from any other personal relationship um mechanism.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't have personal what's a personal relationship mechanism for God's sake.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know, be present, I think.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um be authentic, genuinely care.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: So so not only are you appearing to be present, but you actually are present and you care about the answer.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: And we are very astute as humans, and at the moment, when we're all working remotely, we're even more sensitive and fine-tuned to this.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to be be present uh and but care.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think the last one is for me is the one that's often missed is that people don't tend to see leadership because what is leadership?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: What they see is the effects of leadership.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so people will observe the effects of your leadership and what and how you are leading on others in a team or on other people, and they'll judge you as a leader based on those effects rather than on some mechanism of judging leadership per se.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I think to be aware of that, I mean, Twink and I've spoken in the past about the that brilliant TED talk about the um first follower.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um it isn't the leader there that sets up that sets up the um the the business or the the the kind of uh um team, it's actually the first follower and the way the leader behaves towards that first follower, and then people see the way the leader's behaving to the first follower, and that then tells you what sort of leadership style and what you can expect, and it builds the safety net and all those other things that Fardy was talking about.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd say that's something a lot of people miss, um, that that is worth observing.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting, isn't it?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: It strikes me that if we were answering that question even five years ago, maybe more, like to be talking about psychological safety of sort of the caring nature and culture you create, you know, first follower conversation.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: I just I'd be amazed if that was sort of in in the answers.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: But um, do you do you think, therefore, that I guess the demands and the styles of uh being a good leader today has evolved and changed quite significantly?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we we haven't had a proper recession since 2008.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: We've had a period period of unprecedented growth and success and wealth, and it's quite easy to be touchy-feely, present, caring.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, when everything is going well, the the measure of of the change that you've just described is gonna be now.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, when when it gets tough, when it gets really hard, when but when really difficult decisions have to be made, um when we come out the other side, um, that's I think which we're gonna see if this is really, really a shift in our approach to management and leadership, or if it's just something we've been able to indulge in the past.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think it's too early to say whether it's a real thing yet.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um but it's it's always been there.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: The great leaders have always been there.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: They've you know, the really good leaders have always done this stuff.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: It just hasn't been it just hasn't been categorized or labelled in in quite this way before.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think I mean what what I what I what comes to mind is that you know a few things have shifted significantly over the past sort of decade.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: One is the science and the neuroscience in particular, is helping is shedding a lot of light on what motivates us, what drives us, and how do we react to threats.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And this this growing realization that workplaces can be places full of dread and fear and threat.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the scientists are showing us that this has a really negative effect on the human body.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And especially in the knowledge working space, which I think we're all in, if you don't have people thinking well, they're not being productive.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the the neuroscience is giving us very clear evidence that a lot of the old school techniques of management and leadership actually created fear and threat.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the brain literally doesn't function as it should because it's trying to prevent us from being pounced on by some tiger in the jungle.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think that's one big shift around science and how humans work, which I think is changing um is changing some of the language and psychological safety, therefore, becomes quite important.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing which which Andy and I've talked about before is the um the pace of change and and and technology and the access to information and you know job security and and and the options for talent, they're all very different to sort of not so long ago when you might be thinking about staying in the same company forever and uh you know really struggling to find a job and and so on and so forth.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and and today I think you know, if you're if you're good, you've got really, you know, you've got lots of options, and you can choose who you lend your skills and your talent to.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so that requires a completely different response to people by companies like yours, Twink, that are ambitious and want to grow.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think these two I definitely see.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I can feel them.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I think you know the the the MBA schools haven't probably caught up yet with the the new things that managers and leaders need to be focusing on, rather than the balance sheet and the PL and the headcount and the headcount freezes, which is you know necessary, but kind of treats people as a kind of an amorphous blob that you do things to.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think um you've nailed that, and just to kind of clarify my point earlier, I don't I'm not suggesting that as we go into tougher times that it that people should abandon the new approach to management.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: I totally agree with you, Farley.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's great managers understand what you've just said um and are applying it.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And the businesses that really thrive, um, there's this idea of work-life balance, and people talk about work-life balance all the blinking time.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's just life.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: And the really, really good people, you know, some of your life you are doing a job or you are doing a particular task, and that might be for a company or with a group of people.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that the really good, high-quality people are looking at their life far more holistically.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we're seeing an acceleration in contractors and freelancers, you know, the talent knows its talent, um, and that's changing again.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I think this the period we're in right now will will accelerate that change and will make it harder to keep good people.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you're gonna have to work harder and you're gonna have to be a better leader and more empathetic if you want to continue to grow and develop those people.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: So when we think of retaining that talent and sort of engaging employees and wanting to create that environment as a leadership team, then is it relatively easy for you guys to sort of come in and identify teams that really have, you know, great qualities, great communication, collaboration, and create an environment where people can excel versus ones, you know, do you can you quite quickly feel where it's lacking?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, I don't know if there's a particular sort of methodology I use, but it feels almost instant that you you get exposed to a team and you get a vibe.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: I get a vibe.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um that this this feels like a team that's really thriving.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I bet they're a high-performing team.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I've I've not I've not had any contradictory evidence, you know, in in the time I've been just in the few decades I've been doing uh some work with teams.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but more specifically, you know, if I had a question to ask, or if I had an observation that would set off an alarm bell, it'd be something like, you know, do they talk about each other behind their backs?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: High-performing teams simply don't do that.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: They talk about each other in front of each other.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they can be very robust and um, you know, they're they're sort of not overly defensive.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: They they want to raise their game.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you like it's the difference between it's a bit more um the difference between the sort of the the airline, the pilots who want to talk about near misses because it prevents further misses versus you know, the maybe as it was, perhaps not anymore, but you know, in in some parts of the medical profession, they kind of hid failures.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And this is being studied now as a significant difference in culture.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you know, when when I when I stumble across high-performing teams, there is definitely a vibe tweak.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I would I would say, you know, one little diagnostic is do they talk about each other behind their backs?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: There are lots of others, you know, they're very optimistic about where the company's going, they have each other's backs, uh, they feel safe in front of each other.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and and you know, I'll I'm sure Andy has other other things that he's he's uh he's discerned along the way.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: I I I do, but actually that that observation about talking behind someone's back, leaving the room, asking, asking if someone can stay behind, all of these things are real clues.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know within within um typically within six seconds um whether a team or whether an individual is is someone you're responding to positively.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think as a coach, we go into into these uh into teams and you can tell almost instantly, and it's very hard to define what it is that you can that that you're looking for, but you you do know very quickly.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um high performing teams are incredibly rare.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh it's uh uh bandied about as a as a as a phrase.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean a team that's doing well, it doesn't mean a business that's hitting its KPIs.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think more understanding around what a genuinely high Performing team is would be helpful.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and exploring that as a team would be helpful to any given team.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and the principle of talking outside the room is a really, really good litmus for that.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think that that you have to be prepared to say in front of people, knowing that it's coming in a spirit of kindness and constructive support rather than uh um rather than criticism.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: It has to be um, you have to be brave enough to say it and you have to be um brave and open enough to hear it.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that that's when high performing teams work.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I mean one thing one thing that I've that I counsel my clients against is thinking about high performance and high performing teams as a company leadership thing.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I mean by that is that the evidence points to the manager of A Team being critical to high performance, not the leadership of the company.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe the leadership of the company can role model how they run their own team, call it the exco or the board or whatever it is, but that's the best they can do, and perhaps invest in managers through a mix of training and perhaps coaching to open their eyes to the new ways in which they can cultivate high performance with their own teams.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: But there's there's a significant, I think around 70% of performance, high performance is probably down to the manager, and the outcomes of that manager can pull off with their team.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, I think I think um the manager needs to be much more center stage.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: I I think that's true.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh as you were talking, something occurred to me about culture as well.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: I think no matter how good a leader you are and how good a manager you are, and how inspirational, if a culture of a business doesn't allow people to be to be honest and open, then then it doesn't matter how good you are, that the environment in which you're operating is always going to be muddy.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's one of the um last agencies where I was MD.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: One of our values was to celebrate the success of others.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that idea of getting as much of a kick out of somebody else being successful as if it was you.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's one of the sort of indicators of a culture that says we see success as as across the whole business rather than just as you hitting your KPIs.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I think culture is a very important part of this, and and it it doesn't matter how good a team are, you won't have a high performing team in a culture which is which is not is suboptimal, perhaps.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: And the idea of um the measure of that that I that I talk about all the time and bore people about is the you know, a culture is only as good as the worst behaviour that you tolerate.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it'll only be only ever be as good as the worst behaviour that you allow.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's as good as it gets, is the worst behavior you tolerate as a business.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I think anybody could stop and reflect on their own business and say, well, culturally is a litmus, how does that work?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then you can start to see why there are barriers everywhere to teens operating far more successfully.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: So you let that guy, you know, you let him off a little bit.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: He's a bit difficult and he's a bit of an arse because he's he nails his targets month after month after month, or he's uh, you know, she's a tech a techie superstar who's the only person that keeps your IT going and keeps you ahead of your competition.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you allow them to be difficult with other people or to be countercultural.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that is an environment which will not allow any teens to operate in a in a high-performing way at all.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Just thinking of those listening today, and perhaps recognizing some of those negative traits of either behaviour or culture and and wanting to change that, you know, what what do you because obviously these things evolve over time.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not always a sort of magic bullet, a kind of quick fix to create those environments that you're you're describing.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what are the things that people can just start doing or trying and just um experimenting with to try and create those better performing teams within their business?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, one thing that comes out time and time again is having um shared values and behaviors that demonstrate that you have that value in the first place.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there are a lot of clients that talk to me about wanting more open and direct communication at work, and pretty much in the same few few paragraphs of their narrative, they're complaining about everybody else at work.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um what you know, if there was one thing I would I would I would urge managers of teams to start doing is spend a bit of time, figure out what are the things you value, and what are the behaviors that would demonstrate those values and prioritize a few.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then exactly to Andy's point, which is this sort of broken windows policy of policing, whereby you don't tolerate any single cracked pane of glass.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: You you clamp down on all of the smallest transgressions, and it doesn't lead then to bigger problems.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: So prioritize, figure out what you value, figure out some real world behaviors that demonstrate those values.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Pick the first that feels the most important, and then clamp down on any deviation from that, and then celebrate people that have demonstrated those values really well.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great place to start, and it's definitely linked to high-performing teams.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: They do that.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant, thank you.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Andy, any other words of wisdom?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: I I I put codify values and behaviors down on as Charlie was talking, so I totally agree.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think it's relatively straightforward to to to agree shared values.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: They can become a bit trite, but but they typically, you know, there's probably 30 you could pick from in the big the big tombola of values, but but codify them.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think the harder thing is to is to is to then and particularly I we talk about behaviors rather than just values, as as Farley does, um, but is to is then to do something with them.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and that's it's very easy to go through a lovely exercise where you all get in a room and and you know, Twink and I have done this.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: We you you you define those values and those behaviours, you then have to embed them into your business.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the idea, Farley's idea of taking a few of those and going, we really work to embed those into everything that we do, I think that's critical.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: And the second thing is the transgressions, it's important to flag those up.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: But I think, uh, as Simon Sinek would say, what's the why behind that?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the if transgressions are happening, why are they happening?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Have people not understood the values and the behaviors that are expected of them?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: Are they um is there something countercultural going on elsewhere in the business?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: Is it just that individual and the way they feel?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: Do they not they genuinely not align with the values?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: We we recently uh in a company I worked for released someone because at the end of a conversation she said, Well, basically, I I don't agree with the values, I have different values than you do, in which case, where could we go from there?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it was very honest and very, very, very, you know, uh insightful of her to share it.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: But if you don't share the values, you need to know.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that but but the transgressions, as Farley called them, understand the why as quickly as you can.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: And a hype forming team would discuss that amongst themselves, they'd discuss that openly as a way of learning and growing and developing and improving.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in this kind of remote working world, you know, is that harder to do?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how are you working with leadership teams to really in this different you know environment to try and you know bring their teams together and and sort of hone their leadership skills in this environment?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, I'm a I'm a I've I I have always been a big fan of um teams checking in with each other on how they're doing work-wise, which is kind of uninspiring because it's a natural question to ask.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: But more importantly, how are they doing more generally?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it takes a bit of practice and there is often some resistance, but after a while, teams tend to get into a rhythm of being very comfortable talking about what's going on in life and what's going on with work, which is a facet of life.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I think these days, with everyone being scattered, um, which is probably not the norm for many teams, but definitely is increasingly the norm with certain sectors, the gig economy for sure.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, one thing that I'm encouraging is leaders take time to have those check-ins on a relatively frequent basis and um prioritize what's going on in general, because it's those stresses and strains from other stuff intruding on work, which I think people are confronting right now.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: But this discipline of checking in um helps with that one of those four things I talked about earlier, which I call psychological togetherness.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality of most teamwork is that people are really doing stuff on their own, and it's called teamwork.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's very rare to find tasks that everybody actually is doing at the same time together.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and normally they're only at offsites, which are kind of a little bit off artificial.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the reality is most great teams are actually working on their own on some stuff.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing that differentiates brilliant teams from the rest is that they have this sense that we're doing it together anyway.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think these days, I would say it frankly doesn't matter whether someone's stuck in their in their lounge or their bedroom or on the office floor, which is open plan and full of distractions.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: The key for leaders of teams is to continue sending out signals, either through the check-ins and the huddles, or just through little WhatsApp messages or emails, that and and and use the word together.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: The research shows that just that massively boosts performance, giving people a sense that they're working on something on their own, but it has a broader significance.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we're we're doing it together as a team.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I mean that's pretty much it really these days, helping leaders uh underline what some of them are instinctively doing anyway, but prioritizing this sense of togetherness.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Fali.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm conscious that um we're running a bit over than kind of uh the normal.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was just wondering kind of whether you whether you both could sort of wrap up a few thoughts at the end, just tips for for marketers and their leadership skills.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Anything else, Andy, you would you know would add to what Farley has just said, and indeed any books that you'd point people to or any other reading that you found really useful or insightful on this whole subject area.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, Andy, whether you've got any kind of final few thoughts to wrap up.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, I do.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: I I think that um interestingly, the idea of leadership in in um distributed teams where we are now is there's a temptation for leaders to to take it on themselves to be the person who is doing all the check-ins, is making sure everyone feels connected, and you you sort of make yourself the connective tissue for the team.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a danger in that, which because the team that develops well is one where the connective tissue is complex and and between everybody.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I so I think again, if you go back to that idea of leadership being it's it's the manifestation of what you do rather than what you're doing, because it's harder to identify what you're doing.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: If the leader's job, I think, is to make sure that everybody is connecting in that way, that you don't have people at the start of a uh huddle on on video saying, you know, let's just crack on because we're all busy, that you do that you do that connective stuff.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that's that's really important.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: So so leaders become responsible for ensuring that everyone is following and working in that way, and not simply just trying to be running around faster and faster, being the connective tissue, because you'll in the end, actually, you damage you damage high-performing teams.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: As far as books go, um, there's a book I would always recommend, and I've recommended to hundreds of people, it's called Multipliers by Liz Wiseman.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: But uh Multipliers was given to me by a member of my team who said, I think you might be one of the best bosses I've ever worked with, but you're not at the moment.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and what she meant was that I was accidentally in trying to be a better leader, in trying to be more supportive and a better coach.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: I was actually damaging her ability to grow and develop in the business.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: And she gave me this book.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: It is an utterly brilliant piece of reading.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you'll get it in the first 30 pages if you're not a reader.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: I know lots of people, audiobook people.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's a very straightforward concept, but it's it's an awesomely good book.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it actually goes to quite a lot of what we've been talking about here, which is if you're not a multiplier, you you then become what's called an accidental diminisher.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um and accidental diminishers are incredibly dangerous because they're doing it accidentally, and they don't even know they're doing it, and they work harder and harder and then become more damaging without realizing it.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it's um I'd say Liz Wiseman's book is is a work of work of genius.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Andy.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Farley, some final thoughts from you.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, a couple of thoughts.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: One is I think one way or another, no matter how busy we we are, this um this big global experiment we're all part of, I think is is giving us a bit more time.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Either because we're not socializing as much or we're not chit-chatting as much in the office.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: There is somehow, I think, going to be some time available for all of us.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I would say, you know, one parting thought is how can how can we use that time really wisely so that we end up having a dividend as a silver lining from all of this?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say there's a couple of things definitely I'm doing.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: One, what are my deficiencies?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: What areas would I have never found time for that I could invest in?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: In my case, it's learning German because my wife's German and my my son will be bilingual.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm gonna I'm gonna do that.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: But from a marketing point of view, Twink, um, you know, one of the things that comes comes up quite often as a theme is do our marketers in the industry know enough about the investment side?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: And perhaps this is an opportunity to just invest in that, especially as they're going mayhem anyway.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and perhaps commercial acumen is another thing that came up a lot uh, you know, when I was you know on the board of a massive management company.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Do does the marketing function have enough commercial acumen?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say those are a couple of maybe work-related things to invest time in.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and then in terms of a book, I mean, maybe um a little bit more frivolous than Andy's suggestion.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I would highly recommend nine lies about work, which is a an irreverent but very serious take on some of the uh orthodoxies.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't know if I'm allowed to say the some of the bullshit that we're fed at work.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it takes us through nine lies and debunks them and builds them up and gives us some practical things we can do.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: And there's also a great case study in there about high-performing teams at a real company called Cisco.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's something we can believe in.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so I would recommend that.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you both so much for kind of walking us through all your thoughts on leadership and some really practical, useful guidance and tips for for marketers and leaders.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so thank you very much for your time.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: You're very welcome.