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POV of a Financial Planning Company Director · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: And today's guest on the Financial Planner Life Podcast is Carl Pemberton from Active Chartered Financial Planners.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely loved talking to Carl.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: He goes into great detail about what it's like running a financial planning business.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about some of the things that he's done that's helped catapult his business forward and some of the things that slowed him down.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: One of the most exceptional things he's done, and I've heard from others, and I love talking about it, is the appointment of non-executive directors quite early on in the business and the impact that's had on the growth of the company.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about things like client acquisition, how to go out there and win clients, what part networking plays in that.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about training in development and talent attraction.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: We even talk about systems processes and how AI is going to be implemented into financial planning and why he's not in a rush to do it just quite yet.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's a fantastic episode for anybody that wants to know what it's like behind the scenes of running a financial planning business.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, Carl, thank you so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm good, thanks, Sam.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm alright, yeah, I'm good.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: I've had a bit of a shitty um I had a bit of a shitty week last week because I got literally, because I got gas to enter write it.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: So um it's really annoying because I was up for a podcast of the year award at the Next Gen Planners Award ceremony they had in Manchester.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: They had Gail Porter there.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Remember Gail Porter?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: She was presenting it, and we were up for financial for the Financial Planner Podcast.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: So Financial Planner Life Podcast is up for the best financial planning podcast.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um we won it.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it was really good.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I had to celebrate on my deathbed with me and my daughter being sick and you know, and not in not pretty sights, but the team got to go, so really pleased about with that.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And we also got B Corp as well, B Corp accreditation finally came through.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So funny week, feeling really sick, and then like and when you destroy your stomach line, and it also destroys your mental health a little bit.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I was then left feeling pretty rubbish for a while.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I've got through it.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell you one thing that happened, Carl, and you'll like you'll appreciate this.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Is that whilst I was sat there on my deathbed, I and I couldn't do the things that I normally do that keep me um mentally sane, right?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: My fit physical fitness and chucking myself into work and all those things.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: I I lent into understanding money management and a mind and mindset and money beliefs and all those typical types of things.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's something that I've been kind of pushing off to the side so much.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: But because I was sat there and I couldn't do anything about it, I started like reading and listening to more and more podcasts and actually taking an active interest in in money beliefs and money management and mindset.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: And um I'm really looking forward to tomorrow, which is Saturday, because I'm gonna sit down and really go deep into it again.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, I'm really funny at that 15 years financial planning recruitment, and I'm only just starting to get into money management.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I couldn't think of better things to spend my Saturday doing, man, to be fair.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you do it day in, day out.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: That'd be like doing your work at the weekend.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I've got a free weekend this weekend, so I can do a little bit of that, and then I've got some friends coming over.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: So you got much going on?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm wine tasting tonight.
• 3:14
  unknown: Woo!
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which will be uh which will be nice.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And uh tomorrow I think we're going to the beach for a little barbecue and sunset at tea time.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, that sounds that sounds fantastic.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds right at my street.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: I enjoy a good sunset, good for the soul, good sunrise, good sunset, two things I absolutely love.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Fabulous.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Carl, listen, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's a careers-based podcast, the Financial Planet Life Podcast.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're the managing director of your own financial planning firm, chartered financial planning firm.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: You've been on a journey.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: We've had some good chats pre-podcast about your journey.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanted you to come on, share your journey, inspire those listeners.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: And some of those listeners might be even thinking about setting up their own businesses.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, they might be employed, thinking about going self-employed, and they might even be at the very beginning of their journey and wondering what it's like to work through and progress within financial planning.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, they might have an entrepreneurial streak thinking that they might want to run a business one day.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: So let's do what we can to put them off then, shall we?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Or try our best.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or inspire them, inspire them, I mean, inspire them.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you want to give us a bit of an introduction, Carl, please?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Just who you are and where you are.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm the managing director at Active Chartered Financial Planners.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're based up in the Northeast, and uh Teaside to be specific, uh Chartered Financial Planning firm.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: We have 15 advisors and roughly the same again in terms of back office support.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So we're quite a sizeable, independent, directly authorized firm.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it was a family business.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Traditionally, it was my my father that started the business uh nearly 25 years ago and now.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, so yeah, it's been uh it's a bit of an animal, it's grown over that time, and uh we're we're really proud of what we've created.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it like everything, it it's not a straight line, it's not an easy journey.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, no one would think I was only 21, but uh this is what happens when you run when you run your own business, you end up looking like this.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, fantastic.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we'll get into that, we'll get into the ins and outs of running a business.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: How did you get into the financial planning pro profession?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Were you you know, man and boy, did you did dad get you to come and work within the family business?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: And you've and is that all you've ever known?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or did you work in other industries or other professions or other jobs within financial services?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I've always been involved in finance.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose my dad running the business um originally I I you would say I had an interest in it, but I actually went down the banking route, to be fair, to start with.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I joined Yorkshire Bank at the age of 18.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, started uh like many people did back in those days, just on the counter as a cashier.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I was fortunate enough to get onto the bank's management development program at quite a young age.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: So they fast tracked me up through um quite a lot of the traditional roles within banks as they were.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: They don't exist like that nowadays, though, to be honest.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so it it is different in today's world.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think people would necessarily get the same opportunities as as my generation did uh in the 90s, late 90s, really, coming through that banking sector.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh a lot of the people that we have with us here are active now, are actually former bank colleagues, or we've we've actually built our model based on what made us good at what we did back in those days, really, in terms of that togetherness, that teamwork, and you know, the things we'll talk about around brand and structure and process, which uh gets missed out a lot in our industry, I believe.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you think it does get missed out a lot.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: In what way do you think it gets missed out a lot, and why do you think it gets missed out a lot?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think there's two distinct sides to financial planning, or certainly in the in the IFA world, let's call it, um, historically, you had your big corporate organizations like the banks and your national providers, but on or then you had your smaller, local, more parochial, independent businesses, ultimately, like like what my dad had.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: They are like chalk and cheese.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: The banks were very good at it, it was a bottomless pit of money in terms of training, development, um, giving you that experience and that exposure to be able to learn.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, ultimately, if you're a small one, two, three-man band, you don't always have either the finances, the knowledge, the experience, the understanding of the benefit that that actually brings to your business.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: So whilst the banks have many flaws in what they do, uh they also gave us a platform and a pedestal really that accelerated many of uh the growth in in many of us within this business that I genuinely don't believe I would have got if I'd have been in any other type of uh sector within financial services.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think you're absolutely spot on.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been doing this role for like 15 years, running a recruitment company.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, I remember when RDR happened, retail distribution review, the amount of people that lost their jobs within the banks.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: One by one, the banks were just letting go of all their bank assurance advisors.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: You had a sea of bank assurance advisors that were then all of a sudden like, oh my god, they're used to the culture, um, you know, they're used to the structure of a bank.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: And as you say, the bottomless pit of money of support and encouragement, training and development on their side, but also the access to clients, you know, it's a it was a different type of role than to your high street IFA.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the high street IFA then, even then was sporadic.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was lots of self-employed individuals, maybe some had set up some businesses and started to build some teams, but there was not the cultural, um uh the culture that we see more so today in some of them the IFAs that established themselves.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, a lot of those have taken that from the banking environment.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I definitely agree with you that it did offer such good training routes for people, and you don't see that as much now.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you would see people go into roles like personal banking, even starting as a cashier, right?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Cashier to personal banker.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're on the banking floor, you're talking to customers, you're selling insurance products, right?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: You're selling insurance products, bank accounts, you're cross-selling all these different types of things.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I used to take people from car phone warehouses, I used to take people from phones for you and put them into the banks, into those personal banking roles.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now, 15 years later, they're now financial advisors.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it was an amazing place for somebody to go and get developed and get the training and development to push them through where it's mortgage advice or whatever.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a real shame that it's not there.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: And we've seen a distinct lack of advisors in the profession because of the closure of bank assurance or the reduction in the amount of bank assurance in there.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, from your perspective, you've gone down that banking route.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: Your dad ran his own business.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: So fantastic.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: You were then what happened to you then?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, why did you move from bank, why did you move from the banking side then into financial advice?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Was it an agreement between two and you and your dad that you come in and help run the business?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: How did that how did you end up in in uh as an MD of the business you're in now?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh the banking world was was great.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing uh well personally, but my father had some health scares, um, quite significant ones.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, thankfully he's still here, thankfully he recovered, but it was quite evident pretty soon after that that he would never have the energy to do what he'd always done previously on his own.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I was given an opportunity stroke ultimatum, whichever way you want to look at it.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um do I want to give up the banking world and go and join the business, or does he sell it?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that was around sort of 2006, 2007.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, it's it's a lot to give up, isn't it?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: A secure job in the banking environment.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was only how old was I?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was 30 at the time, so I was still relatively young um to not only be where I was in the banking world, but to make that leap into self-employment and technically run into my own business.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't got many years under my belt, but certainly I didn't think I had enough years under my belt to be able to make that leap.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if I didn't do it there and then, the family business wouldn't have existed for much longer.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um part of me felt like it was a great opportunity.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Far part of me felt like it was um duty a little bit, and there was a ultimately there was an opportunity to try and create something which I'd like to think we've we've done on the whole, really, over that 15 years since.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: So there was a motivation to be somebody that can construct a business, build a business, build the cultures that you've experienced within the banking.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Can you do that within a business that your dad was running?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of it's almost nice as well, isn't it, sometimes when you you don't start something from scratch, but you're you're sort of taking something over that's the foundations are there, but you can add some value to it based on what you can bring to the table in your experiences and your learnings.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Was there anything at all that you did, do you think, training and development wise in your early career or within this business that's really supercharged your experience and supercharged your business forward?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you would think to yourself, that was an excellent bit of training or development, whether it's a program or a seminar, anything like that at all?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think well, there's two parts.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the whole banking career was almost constant training.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say everything that happened in that side was uh was phenomenal.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly, in terms of uh running active, one of the first uh things that I did, let's say formally, was uh I was lucky to be part of the Goldman Sachs 10,000 Small Business Program coming up 10 years ago.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was the end of 2013, and that was uh a fully funded training program by Goldman Sachs where they pick um 10,000 businesses from around the world.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: The program still exists to this day, it's still ongoing.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um fully funded, it's almost like a mini MBA in terms of um how to grow your business, how to scale it, uh, and how to maximize the opportunities within that business.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that was an eye-opener for me.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I would have said, if you'd have asked me before I went on that course, do I know how to run a business?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'd have said, Of course I do, look at what we're doing.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: But you go on that course and suddenly you realize, bloody hell, I've either been winging it or I've been very lucky to have got to where I've got to, because you really once you realise how to run a business properly, or the things that you can do to make it even better, my God, it opens your eyes to uh a big world out there that you know hopefully we've managed to um capitalise upon.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: So you were doing you were doing well to a point, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: You go on this training development program and it opens your eyes to some of the things you might not have been doing so well or things you might have been missing.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you're kind of like, and that's the thing I think.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes when you do run a business, you can get so far just on sort of grit and will alone, and just but it does kind of get to a point where trying to scale it or trying to break past certain points, the ceilings, if you like, that you come up against can be a real struggle.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: But turning your head to the left and asking somebody for some advice or going on a training and development program or investing some money in some coaching or a coach or reaching out to what we'll talk about in a minute of things like uh non-executive directors, bringing those types of individuals into your business, getting perspective really does take it that little bit further.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: When you let go of that idea that you can do it yourself, but you can lean into others, and you're like, wow, that's just opened a whole new perspective for me.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: What were some of the what were some of those things that you were doing?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: If you were doing well at Active, you've gone across to Active, you've done well, you're taking it over, you're building it over, you're building it up.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: But what were some of the things that you realized that you weren't doing, and then you thought, yes, I'm gonna implement that?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: And as you started to implement it, it changed your business.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think first and foremost, I think it was almost like a belief in what we were doing, and actually being able to map that out and plan it and create.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: We we ultimately created a 10-year business plan, a growth plan.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you are armed with the knowledge and the ability of how you can put that down in black and white, how you can then share that amongst your team to get people on board with that growth plan, how you can then share that with your your partners, as in your lawyers, your accountants, all of your support people, your tech people.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: If everybody buys into that plan, then you've got a greater chance of hitting it.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, I don't think we ever we always knew we were I don't want to say I don't mean it in the way it's gonna come out, but we always knew we were good, but I don't think we realized how good we could be until you actually put it all down on paper and actually step back and think, wow, we could get to that point in ten years' time.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's ridiculous because you don't really sit and think like that that often, to be fair.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, that that's number one is actually seeing it uh and being able to articulate it and then share it to get that buy-in.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh another key element which uh I've mentioned to you before is is around building a balance.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And again, going back to that uh conversation around my father, one of the big things that I wanted to evolve when I when I joined the business was ultimately the business was my dad.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And when he was pooly, it it made everybody within our family realize that without my dad, the business couldn't really operate.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what a shame that a business that had been run successfully for so long could potentially disappear just purely because he was uh you know, he was in a life-threatening um health uh position.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I just wanted to make sure that if I gave up a secure job within the banking world, we needed to create a business that could operate and function and be worth something with or without me.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: So then I didn't end up being in the same position as my father.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when you go through that Goldman Sachs program, when you talk about creating a brand, uh that brand story, that brand journey, and actually make it tangible that clients then can buy into.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I know I'm sort of stretching the point here, but you know, Nike doesn't say Nike sportswear or trainers, it's just either the tick or Nike, everyone knows what it stands for.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: McDonald's, everyone knows the golden archers, and it's it doesn't say fast food, burgers, or whatever, it just says McDonald's.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: We all know what it is, and some of the best brands in the world uh they they're built on that, and and people know what they stand for, they are they have consistency, and and hopefully your brand should match exactly the type of firm you want to be, and the experience your clients should feel.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we've spent a lot of time and effort into hopefully creating a brand that I believe reflects the firm we want to be.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: I love that, yeah.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think um there's a business brand, isn't it?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a personal brand.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if the if the business is connected to the personal brand, so all of a sudden, Carl, you're all over social media, you're the face, you're talking about it.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone knows the business as being Carl.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: And as you rightfully said, if you were to up and go and leave, then people relate the company to you, right?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: Not to the brand.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I get that, I really do get that.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: I was chatting also, there's something else you just said a second ago about the plan, right?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Building a really strong plan.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: And this accounts for across across any any type of business, doesn't it?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is that if you build a plan that you can prove works, yeah, and perhaps you live by your plan.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: So a a financial plan, for instance, right?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you're building a financial program, a financial plan, a discovery meeting, all these things that are fantastic.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: A system, a process, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: That when you lay it out in front of somebody, it's so bloody good that people buy it and people become clients of yours.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: When those people become clients of yours, you gain testimonials and you gain referrals and you get that validation that what you've got is a bloody good product.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's all well and good, but if you're not sharing that with the people in your business and getting them to believe in exactly how brilliant that proposition is, then they're not going to feel it, therefore they're not gonna go out there and sell it.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I was talking to Warren Shute.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Warren Shute's a financial planner that um earns, turns over about a million pounds a year, works 40 uh weeks of the year, four days a week.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we were talking about how there is a distinct lack of people coming into the financial planning profession that have got good, strong sales experience.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of them worry or are unsure about how they go out and win new clients, and especially when you've got power planners that aren't naturally salespeople stepping across into financial planning roles.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the biggest things he said was you have to build a plan, you have to build a system and a process that you live your life by and you would give yourself and you would uh you know you deem to be fantastic.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: You've built this program that works.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do that, that sells itself because you're so fired up about it, you know it works, you're gonna go out and sell it.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, you don't need to be the best salesperson in the world.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: You just have to have a bloody good product and a bloody and a really good service.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: But articulating that then to your staff is another thing that needs to be done.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's getting them excited and showing them proof of concept through taking clients through the process, getting that feedback from them, gaining testimonials, and therefore securing referrals.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it becomes far easier to sell because you're so passionate about the system and the process that actually works.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: You're some you're you're somebody that's quite, you mentioned yourself being a bit OCD, right?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: You're somebody that so I could imagine your systems and processes within your business are quite tight and quite are quite sort of systematic and quite slick, would you say, or not?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh I'd like to think so.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to, I don't want it to sound like I'm a control freak in terms of they're they're really rigid or anything like that.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: We've actually got quite a broad working relaxed environment to be fair.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it the the systems I've my O C D is I I just I always have a belief that we can be better.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I always like to finish a job before I start the next one.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So my OCD is around being organized.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if if a business can come across as being organized, if I can come across as being organized, then again it reflects better on who we are in our industry.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't want someone looking after my money who looks a bit um disorganized and a bit chaotic, let's say, not criticizing those as individuals, but it wouldn't necessarily fill me with confidence of them looking after their money.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: So my OCD is just around order and actually just making sure everything has its place, everyone knows where to find it.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um we shouldn't be running around scrapping around for bits of information.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Where did so and so put this, where did so and so put that, and or we don't know.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I would uh you know, I'd like to think if somebody asked me to do something or find something, I'd know exactly where it is, whether it's on my laptop, whether it's in A filing cabinet, you name it.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, not everybody in the business is like that, but I would I just think looking organized and being organized, again, is part of your brand because it hopefully instills confidence to your clients.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: You talked about the protest.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: What part does technology play in that?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Financial planning as a as a profession is a bit behind when it comes to technology.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying technology is a saviour of every every profession, right?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes there's being technology being created every day that's just pointless, right?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, people building things that don't even work within the profession and expect everybody to use it just because they think it's going to improve uh, I don't know, processes and procedures.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: But is there anything at all that you've implemented into your business that you think, wow man, like that's a really good piece of technology or that's a really good system?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything like that you've got which really stands out?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, again, going back to that Goldman Sachs piece, actually, 10 years ago, um, we were very early adopters in terms of CRMs.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I it sounds weird saying it now because it's just a given, isn't it, that we all have some form of CRM system.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it I I still come across financial advisors now that just have their client banks on an Excel spreadsheet, and it scares the living daylights out of me, to be fair.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you know, to have a CR, have a web-based CRM system that has all of your client data, electronic um storage, it's not filing cabinets.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've got about six filing cabinets, uh tall cabinets in the whole building, and that's just for pending work, cases that are pending, when they're finished, they all get scanned on and and such like, and it's gone.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: We we are pretty light in terms of that paper.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that building our own platform, and uh when I say platform, I don't mean investment platform, but building our own CRM platform actually then allowed us to keep building on that as we developed as a business, and we then use it to um track all KPIs, we use it to track CPD, we use it to track how everybody within the business is actually working towards our core company values, which is how we reward our team.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we've actually developed what ultimately started out as a client database, CRM, into a whole-encompassing um desktop, really, that that that runs the whole business.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: And because we've now got 10 to 15 years worth of data on it, to see the trends and the KPIs over that period gives you confidence in the direction that you're actually traveling in.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you can see previous trends.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're going through a cycle like we are now where markets are in a period of flux, uh, you know, you can look back at well, what what happened to our income levels at that time?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: What did we predict or how did it affect clients at that time?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it does allow you now.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: We've captured that data for so long.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that amount of information is is really powerful.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Again, going back to a bit of OCD, but I think having that information to hand to be able to use it for the benefit of the company just puts us on a sure foot.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, go back a couple of years when COVID hit.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, those first months weren't comfortable in the slightest, but it didn't really impact us overall because we had a working web-based CRM that we could work wherever we wanted.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: And those data points that you're following at the moment are from that data.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: So you built the database, you built it specifically for your business, and you'll start to measure specific data points.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Are you constantly adding new data points and sort of different things to measure throughout the time your business gets bigger and bigger and grows and grows?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: And do you review those data points?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, are they things that you bring into like management meetings, director level meetings, board level meetings, and do they have an impact on the decisions that you might make about future growth, whether it be hiring or whether it be marketing spend budget, whether it be where monies are invested?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: Do you look at all that type of thing and to review it?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And is it beneficial?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%, 100%.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: That that desktop um platform view that we see as directors is basically that home screen is a is an overview of the entire company at that particular time.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a live system.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we can see what the income levels are looking like, where the referrals are coming from.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um we can see the percentage business mix as an example.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, we we do analyze that quite significantly.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Each advisor has their own version of it as well, so they can see their own individual KPIs and where the business is coming from and and business mix, and uh you name it, obviously.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's so much in there, it's it's hard to explain it all.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it it almost becomes a bit of a the driving force behind how well ultimately how are we doing?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Are we doing good, bad, or indifferent?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: When you when did you implement that then?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: When was that sort of brought in?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was I think it was first brought in around 2008 or nine.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: And was that off was that off the shelf or was that?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, we uh I'm quite fortunate that a good friend of mine actually ran uh uh or set up his own software business, and we were one of his first projects, and it was to basically take everything we'd normally do and have on paper and try and digitize it.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: So he built the the first CRM platform for us when we were his first client.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And to be fair, he still uh he still runs and develops his his company's much bigger as well now, but he now uh still runs, develops, and and develops the the site for us as we need.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: We we had another big download and an update this week where we just brought the two or three more things in onto the system.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't it be great if it can do this?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, brilliant.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: He'll price for it, say I can do that, and it'll be done by the end of the month.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant, crack on.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that dynamism uh which it don't get me wrong, I'm sure the big platforms and your intellifloors of this world, uh I'm pretty sure they they will do a super duper job.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: But if we want to change that to reflect our own core business, there's not that much flexibility in it.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, I know back in the banking days when the likes of I.O.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: um were were around, and of certainly earlier forms of I.O., the bank were paying a hell of a lot of money for it, but advisors were only maybe using a 10% um of its capacity, so it felt like a bit of a waste.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not saying what we thought is the perfect answer, but it's something that I think a lot of people probably overlook because it's just easier to get something off the shelf.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's tangible as well.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: You can change yours, can you?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: You can adapt.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: So as as bit as business changes, as the markets change, uh, as regulation changes, um, there are things that you can do to adapt.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: What about marketing though?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know what it's like?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's a CRM for your clients, and then there's a CRM for marketing, and it becomes so bloody stressful trying to manage all these different databases, trying to do different things.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: Have you has your database got the ability to market to clients through, I don't know, email marketing newsletters or any other means?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's all linked with um I'll say MailChimp.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it is MailChimp because I don't do the marketing, but yeah, the um the CRM system is linked to um a text uh type of uh of push notification.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's linked to uh I'll say MailChimp.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that if we want to send uh if something happens in the market and we need to send a newsletter or a quick market update out to clients, we can literally do it in probably 30 minutes.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: We can type it, press send, and it will go to everybody based on the live system.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, we can send a text notification out.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: If a client review is due, they will actually get a text notification automatically because the CRM system lets them know when it's due.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: The clients can book an appointment direct off as a result of that.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we've tried to we've tried to do that, but not only from uh uh we need to cover ourselves, don't we, in our industry of we need to evidence we are contacting clients for their reviews as an example, we need to evidence that we are fulfilling our obligations, we need to uh basically cover that we are updating clients when significant events happen and and such like so anything that you can do, in my opinion, that um takes that risk of human um uh of a human mishap away, I think it just makes us a bit more secure as a business.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: I get that.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: Have you thought about AI at all and implementing any kind of AI um processes into the CRM itself to help speed things up?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we we have actually had discussions about it.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm a bit nervous if I'm being honest.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: I would I would always regard myself uh as a second tier techie.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna be the person sleeping outside the Apple shop the night the new iPhone comes out as an example.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a first-tier, I don't have to be first, but I'm happy to be the first of that second charge when someone else has proved that it works.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Proof of concept, yeah.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I I'll certainly never be at the back of the queue, and I'll certainly never be, I'll never be a forced mover, but I'll if someone proves to me that it works and it works well, and I'm not gonna put my clients at risk by using it, that's probably when I'm likely to uh to jump on board with it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say I'm a I'm an avid observer at the moment to see how it works.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a bit skeptical.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think because what we do is so powerful and we live in such a litigious world and with such high regulation, I don't know where the regulator would stand if an if AI sent a message that suddenly was deemed non-compliant or it went rogue in whatever way.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: I just I don't want to be, I don't want to risk my business for something like that.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a bit hesitant right now.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: But you're not against it, for instance.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: You're not like, oh no, AI's taking over the world, I'm not gonna touch that.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was it's I think it's about being open to it, isn't it?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: And not being dismissive, because you don't want to be like, oh no, dismiss, dismiss, dismiss, and then five years later you're like, oh shit, I wish I I wish I implemented that in my business.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I like your concept, I'm a bit like that.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: I keep an eye on things and I play around with it, but I don't feel the rush and need to run out there and start doing AI all the time.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like I around content creation, I started looking at it and using it.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it's great.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: I always find like even like things like ChatGPT, I think it's great to kind of get 80% of the framework of an idea down or to gain some ideas and to gain some structure.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: It is out of date, you know, it's 2021.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um anything happens after that is out of date.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um but uh for things like content creation to thrash out some planned ideas, it's brilliant to get you started.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm starting to see some companies that are starting to use AI within their marketing.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it's a it's a task.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's hard work, they're spending a lot of money in it and they're putting a lot of their energy and their belief and it's going to improve everything.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas I suppose like energy, if you put that energy into other things, like getting out to networking events, like asking for business, like building on your personal brand, um, you know, could you get a quicker return on investment on that than trying to implement AI, which might take some time with the teething problems it has?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I like your approach, wait till somebody else has done it all, because sure as shit, they're going to come to the surface and say, I've got a solution, buy off of me.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, okay, I'm paying for the fact that you spent two years researching it, so I'll buy it, and I'll implement it in my business bowl.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to see a demonstration of some proof of content first.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I kind of like I kind of like approach.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, talking about the client acquisition side thing, because it is a difficult area.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I warrant you.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, I had a conversation with him and he said, look, build a good plan, build a good proposition, and you're going to be so fired up to want to sell it, it doesn't matter.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, but when it comes to client acquisition, what is your approach as a business?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we talk about business to business, we talk about business to business, B2C, and then we talk about B2C.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: What, you know, what are you guys doing?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're growing advisor numbers within your business.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: What is your approach to client acquisition?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because we hear there's so many clients out there that need financial advice.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I speak to so many financial advisors who don't seem to have that many clients.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think well, I suppose first and foremost, I think you've got to understand your market and know what it is you're trying to achieve.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: What type of client are you going after?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe um in today's world with the way regular again, going back to regulation and the way products change regularly.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think being a generic mass market IFA is necessarily going to be um attractive, let's say.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um in the same way as you know, if you sadly, if you're going through a divorce, you would go and probably find a divorce lawyer.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you're buying a property, you would go and see a property lawyer, etc.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the the generic solicitor is that they've gradually been sort of disappearing, haven't they, from from the high street, that old-fashioned solicitor.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the same is in our industry.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think we should specialise.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: I would rather the people in our business, each individual be a specialist or at least have an area of specialism that they are passionate about, they are knowledgeable, they are on top of everything that is going on within the industry and change.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because to stay on top of everything, I think is pretty impossible, just given how quick it all changes.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: So because of that, we tend to um align ourselves, our business model in how we structured our building, our brand, going back to that banking conversation.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Our model is very much like those medium-sized regional law firms or accountanty firms, where you may have a VAT specialist, you may have a tax specialist, and such like uh an RD uh relief specialist.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas uh if we are therefore seeing on a level or on a par with those type of businesses, then naturally they gravitate to us and we gravitate to them.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: So when you talk about the networking, yes, there's some brilliant law firms, brilliant accountancy firms.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you can articulate what your business is and what it does, and it almost perfectly matches and dovetails in the same way as what they're doing, there's a synergy there that doesn't mean you really have to sell what you do because they get it.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is where financial services have really missed a trick.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Going back to again to that uh earlier conversation around you had big bureaucratic organizations or you had small one-two-man bands, there was very few in that regional practice sort of role in the middle.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and therefore you've got some bloody good uh other professional services out there, but if you can't talk to them on a level, you'll always feel like you're trying to sell to them.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you're always pushing against that sort of uh upward um, you know, that that door that's always half half open, half closed.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you're at it, if you're at a level with them, or they perceive you as at a level with them, then it's much easier to push those doors open and actually maintain those relationships because the clients they're looking after indirectly will be the same type of clients we want to look after, and vice versa.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to things like training and development and um helping, say, an advisor develop new clients, what you know, what would your approach to be to helping an advisor go out and win new clients?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say the best thing they could do to focus on to get out there and start developing clients?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say if they started with zero clients, right?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of people going to be coming into the profession, definitely from second careers, are going to be starting from scratch, even if they go into your St.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: James Place Academy and they're promised the bloody world.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um in reality, and they'll say this anyway, SJP, you've got to have a business plan to go out there and win some business, right?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: So what would your what would your advice be to somebody that was considering financial advice but hasn't got a client bank to work with or inherit, um, and they were going it alone, right?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe under a network or under a business self-employed.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: What would be, you know, your advice around their plan of action to generate clients?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, first and foremost, I'd I'd go down that route of um understanding what type of client they're going for.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: We had that conversation before, didn't we?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Around are you going for young entrepreneurs?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Are you going for those in uh approaching retirement?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Are you going for professionals, business owners, you name it?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think being able to articulate what it is you're looking for is quite important because if you're gonna go networking, one of the questions that you'll probably get asked is, so what type of client are you looking for?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you're very vague and generic, well, someone isn't really then going to understand what they can do and what they might be able to pass you in terms of a referral.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you're quite clear around, you know, I'm an inherent tax specialist and uh I'm looking for clients in this type of age bracket, or I find that I can help clients with this type of problem, and you can really articulate and talk about what ultimately your ideal client looks like, you are there quite specifically saying to that person, if you ever come across somebody like that, please pass them my way.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's quite important.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing I would say, and this isn't my advice, but it's something I was taught many, many years ago by a business advisor that we engaged with, and it was around if you're there but you want to be there, if you talk to people like you're there, you will only ever get clients that are there and you will always stay there.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: So although you want to get there, you'll never go like that overnight.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're there, explain to client or explain to these professional referral sources that you're there, and then you'll get referrals that are there, and before long you'll move, and you just keep doing that until you eventually get to where you want to get to.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost you know, again, having belief in what you're saying, it's uh talk about the exact type of client that you want in an ideal world, and and those clients will come.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be consistent, uh, you have to have faith in it, and uh, and you have to you have to keep going.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have to have that tenacity and um belief that what you're saying is true, because it's not easy networking, is it?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's it can be demoralizing, it can take six months before you get a lead, but then before you know it, you've cracked it and you might get three or four in one month, as an example.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I think people lose faith in it because they'll say, Oh, I've done this three or four times now and nothing's come from it.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if you flip-flop about or drop into that networking event and then say that doesn't work, then I will go to that networking event, you'll actually never get anything.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: You have to stick at these things and and genuinely show sincerity and belief that you're there for the long term.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you've got to, and especially when it comes to great advice, and especially when you're you're you're networking and you start to see the same people on on a regular basis, they won't, they won't make that they probably won't buy from you or trust you on the first meeting anyway.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: So each time you want to go back, or each there needs to be a reason why you can speak to that person again.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: And and each time you speak to that person, we do it in recruitment, it's you know, we start to find out about somebody's business, and then we start to find out what their pain points are, what their pain points are around hiring, what type of person they keep they want to hire but can't find.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then we'll ask them about their business, and then we'll share some information about what they can do to improve their brand or improve their marketing to make it an attractive place to work.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: We might dig around some of the things that a successful company is doing and asking if they're doing it as well.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: We might introduce them to somebody who might be able to help them around that marketing or branding, and we become valuable to them, not by trying to ask them constantly, can I get some vacancies from you?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: Can I get some vacancies from you?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because at that point in time, they might not have any vacancies, but I want them to remember me as somebody that's helpful.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to them looking to hire, they think bloody out, Sam knows what he's talking about, and I only got a podcast, knows he's giving out free information.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: He's really helpful, he's obviously out there doing what he's doing.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to speak to him when I see him next.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: You build that relevance and you build that trust and it takes time.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: So you can't just do you know this instant gratification, this transactional piece of business.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't really lend itself into any type of consultancy work.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't, you know, you have to kind of get yourself out there and put yourself out there.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think some of the things I just want to like some of the financial advisors to understand is that if you are going to go alone, even if you even if you're going to go and join a firm on an employee basis, right?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: You might be lucky enough where they give you some clients to work with.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think that that is a really good route for somebody that's going into a trainee role or their first role is to try and find a firm or an opportunity where they do have some existing clients that you can start to cut your teeth with, perhaps like some reviews to be done, or some plans to be done, or whatever it might well be, or some leads are being passed your way, just to make it that little bit easier, so it's not 100% in BD.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a you know, it's it's it's a mixture of both.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think um the tenacity side of it of what you said as well is so important.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: People just need to understand that that first year it's gonna be hard.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: The first couple of years are gonna be hard.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: I've never come across a financial advisor who said it's easy.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard, isn't it?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's craft.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's demoralizing as well at times, isn't it?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because um, you know, you're gonna get so many rejections, you're gonna go to so many events where you think I've got absolutely bugger all from that.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you start crying.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Questioning why am I doing it?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I still going to these things?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, if that's the route you've chosen to go down as your way of gaining new clients, you know, you could take the easy option and buy them off the internet.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think that necessarily helps you build a brand and a reputation and uh in terms of getting that that following and loyalty from clients.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: That clients should choose you because of what you've offered, not you going out and picking them off the off an internet database.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's wrong.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think the only other thing I would say about uh the networking side as well is just accept also you are not going to be all things to all people.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, again, you in your own personal life, you're not gonna get on with everybody.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna have people you like, people you don't like, people you gel with, people you don't gel with.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's just human nature.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in networking, you know, again, try and find and align yourself to the people who you get on with.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you get on with them, that relationship will develop far quicker.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, I've I've seen ex examples over the years where people will say, I've got no, I've got no leads from them yet.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll say, Okay, I said, How many times have you seen them or what do you have in common?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you get on well with them?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they'll say, Oh, well, I don't know.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, are they married?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have kids?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Where have they been on holiday?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know that sort of information, if you're not close enough to be know them as people and as individuals, and and you've not had those interesting chats with them where you know a bit about them and they know a bit about you, why are they gonna pass you the details of their clients?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna trust you with their most valuable asset, which is their client.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: If they don't know anything about you, also go out of your way to and to ask questions about them.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: So like find out what they're about, find out what type of clients they're looking for, and start giving and start giving them some referrals.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say that's that's exactly a brilliant point.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: We all we do say that as well.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: The best way to get a referral is give them one first.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, ultimately, if you pass them something, there's almost again, there is this human obligation.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's when a Christmas card drops through your letterbox, you think, Oh, bloody hell, we need to go give them one because we forgot.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's that you know, you do feel as though they've passed us something, so we've got to give it the other way around.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, always think of what you can give back to them.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: Massive.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a really good way of doing it, is just to think how what can I do for you?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: What can I do for you?
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then sooner or later, giving, you tend to find, you put things out, things come back.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: If you're consistently looking for things, looking for ways to get from other people, people just like not interested.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: So when people sometimes people people want an instant and we want to say that, but yeah, it's the giving.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: I like to give, and then later on down the line, and sometimes it's frustrating because you think you've given a lot to somebody and you get nothing back.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but you what I've learned is that over time they remember you, and sometimes it's them referring you to somebody else that is the giving back.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: I may never do business with that person, but because they because they they get a lot from you, they'll then refer they'll go out of their way to refer you to other people that might well get some more business.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it's uh it does it does definitely work.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: You're a business that's retained staff really well, you know, you've grown your number of employees to a really good level, and it sounds like you've got really good growth plans as well.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: You want to grow your business.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: When it comes to retention of staff, is there anything that you've done or put into place to ensure that top performers, key people within your business remain in your business and stay loyal?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, the the the quick, easy answer is yes.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm trying to think of the the the most obvious.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, going back to the start again, what made the banks really good when we worked at the banks was we had a great working environment.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: We were trusted by our bosses to deliver what we were being asked to do.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, having that work environment, a trusted working environment, where you know ultimately, as long as our people do what we need them to do or do what they need to do in a way that doesn't jeopardize the business, that keeps us progressing forward.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: I in a and I mean this in a very nice way, I don't care how they do it, I don't care where they work when they do it, and I don't care whether they do 10 hours a week or 40 hours a week.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that might be a training issue for the person, the person doing 40 or 50 hours a week doesn't mean that they're working harder, they might just be more inefficient.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, in a way, I'm I'm a big believer in empower the team and and allow them that flexibility and freedoms and trust them.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's number one, but that goes back to the the banking days.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we I'd like to think we reward our staff well as well.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then uh, you know, I mentioned earlier that uh we've got five core values as a business, and our reward package and incentive package is linked to those values.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Our values are all voluntary, they're all behavioural, um, they're not based on ability.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: So again, nobody's left out, it's a consistent, and again, that comes down to you know something that's consistent throughout the business, which forms part of the brand, let's say.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, if people still want to progress and they still think they can play a part in getting us from A to B on that growth journey, well, they're not gonna I'm confident in the belief that they're not gonna be able to do as good as they would anywhere else as they will for us.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: So the people who've got ambition, we tend to attract and keep.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: We the only people we tend to lose are well, I think certainly we I think we've lost five people in the last five years.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Three of those five retired, so you can't really count those as uh as as levers, but I still count them as levers, but three of them retired.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um one didn't want to progress in terms of no more exams and didn't want that that that pressure of you know towards charter status, which we're quite passionate about.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and somebody else just moved to a another firm quite locally, which fair play, if the role was better for them, then you're never gonna stand in somebody's way.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: So really, there's only one or two in the last five years that I would say we've lost, that's not bad.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: Our numbers have kept growing.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um what about things like um EMIs?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: Have you put anything like that in place for say young advisors to uh keep them motivated to stay within a business and feel a part of it and maybe be connected to uh the profits of the business as well, the direction of the business?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so again, we we've had a profit-based uh incentive scheme, um uh a profit share uh scheme for all of our team for many, many years.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that means when we do well, we all win, we all share that.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when we don't do as well, well, we all feel the pain.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we're again we're all focused on um you know doing what's best for the company.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um in terms of EMI, we we first did an EMI 10 years ago, believe it or not, not long after they first came out, and we brought a director in at that time on an EMI basis, which worked fantastic.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: We've recently done phase two of an EMI where two other individuals have actually two of our longest-serving individuals, one as an advisor, one is our practice manager.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Both have been with us since those early days.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: They bought into what we were doing long before we delivered it, and we've actually brought them in on an EMI now and they sit on our board, uh, which is fantastic.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: Andrew, one of the guys we've done that with, he started in 2009, I believe, as the apprentice YTS column, whatever they were back in those days.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: He started as a 17-year-old uh literally doing the take and answering the phone, as people did back in back in those days.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: He's now sat on our board as a chartered director, uh, sorry, as a chartered financial planner, um, with a master's degree, and uh, you know, I think uh the only badge he doesn't have is he's 25 metres swimming, but uh you know it the guy never stops learning, and I think it's phenomenal, and we've paid for all that, and we keep funding him and we keep saying if you want to learn, we will back you.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: And why shouldn't he have a share in the company?
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: And why shouldn't he sit on the board?
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: He's a good 10 years younger than me, and if he's got ideas that I don't have, well, I'm more than happy to share that because it'll make us a better business.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really forward-thinking, and I'd love that story, someone coming in as an apprentice, now chartered planner, sitting on your board of directors.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's amazing, and I think it's inspiring to hear, and I think other companies need to take a look at those apprenticeship level type individuals.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying build a business off the back of it because of the size of the businesses in the UK around financial planning, they're not designed to really invest all their money in people that don't have experience.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard to grow a business as it is, right?
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: Chucking a load of money at people who, whether or not you think they might stay the distance or whatever, um, it's expensive.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: But companies should, I think, invest in trainees.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we've got to be realistic as well that over the next five to ten years in financial planning, the pool of experienced qualified advisors is getting less and less and less with the retiring advisors that are leaving the profession.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: The majority of business owners need to come to a realization that to grow the business is to to attract talent from outside of the profession that have transferable skills and networks to lean into.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um those are going to be inexperienced people in respect of financial planning, but highly skilled and experienced in respect of the networks and that they've built and developed and that can be lent into.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: Part of that is also encouraging, because those types of people tend to be like what, 30 to 40, something like that, because they've got a bit of life experience.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: But then it's about encouraging the grads, isn't it?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's about encouraging those individuals to come on into the business.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: And there are a few universities now that are actually doing the financial planning qualification as a degree.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's a lot of youngsters who are fired up to want to get into financial planning, but the barrier to entry is really difficult for them.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm bringing out the Financial Planner Life Academy, it's coming out in the next month.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to be training up um hopefully a thousand administrators, power planners, uh, financial advisors, mortgage advisors, and protection advisors, putting them through the qualifications, affordable, you know, so they can do it whilst they're working, studying, whatever it might well be, and have a distribution channel through my recruitment company into firms that are willing to take those people on.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: But at least they've got not only the qualifications of the belt, but because they come into our academy, we can educate them on the career of a financial planner.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: And we can also give them soft skills training as well.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got all these brilliant trainers, all these brilliant training development programs.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because I've partnered with next gen planners, and next gen planners have got an amazing training system in place.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like that cons that will contribute to upskilling the applicant.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: So instead of their wet behind ears knocking on your door without any experience, at least they've got kind of financial planner life academy accreditation.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you'll go, Oh, so you've been in the academy.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that must mean you know this, this, this, and this.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know this.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's a step forward, isn't it?
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a bit of a less, less of a risk from an investment perspective of a company that takes somebody on who's got aspirations to become a power planner, but they've got their qualifications and a good understanding and they've done some cash flow forecasting and stuff like that.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: So But I think I think businesses like ours, though, as in our industry, I think we have an obligation to invest in these people.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: I genuinely think we do.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think if we don't, and there are so many companies, I know many locally, but so I'm sure it's national as well.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm sure there's so many of these companies that fail to invest in their people, they fail to develop them, and they will either leave the industry, be set in their ways, or they will die off in in so many years' time.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, if you want to have a legacy as a business owner or as a financial advisor, then I think we have a moral obligation to encourage and motivate and push our people so they are they are successful and they love what they do.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna it's gonna make you know our industry far better in the long run and give us um you know more longevity.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: From a staff retention perspective, I couldn't agree more because we're entering into a stage where people are coming into the profession of a certain age where it's not deemed to be negative to move from company to company.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I wholeheartedly encourage people, of course I do, to move from company to company if they're not getting their needs met.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: I would always encourage somebody to approach their boss and say, This is what my goals and aspirations are at interview stages, is to say, these are what my goals and aspirations are.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: To ask, what does the career development plan look like?
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: What will my first one year, two year, three years look like within your business?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because in reality, and I know this from doing it myself, what one of the things that changed the culture of my business was being hugely transparent around career development.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: So if someone sits down in front of me in my recruitment business and they've never recruited in their life, right?
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not rocket science.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard, but it's not rocket science.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: What they want to know is is like what does what does five years in your business look like?
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: I can bring a roadmap out that will give them a clear, clear, honest, and transparent, and honesty is the biggest thing here, of what their earning potential could be, what their benefits package could be, what their level of experience would need to be to go all the way from resorter up to a director in my business.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: And when I turn when I turn them around in a meeting room and I show them the poster on the wall, their eyes are like they just light up.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because nobody's sitting there talking about that.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: They might be sitting there talking about what do you want to buy a fast car or what you want a house or what you're gonna spend your money on, all that kind of nonsense talk.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas we're talking about development, we're talking about how we can get you to buy that house, but also how you can increase your earnings and maintain those earnings that you're not just constantly on a commission basis type type mindset.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: And and it works really well.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: And the things you see in financial planning, it does lack that massively.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: So firms need to invest heavily in their staff, they need to put career development plans in place, and they need to review that on a regular basis.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because if those individuals can just turn their head to the left or the right, it's gonna be absolute talent war over the next few years in financial planning.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: Salary is gonna be going up, people are gonna be changing their structures, it's gonna be a real sort of you're gonna see a lot of changes.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: And some of the things I think financial planning firms need to do is change their benefits packages.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, put some put some really attractive benefits packages in there.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: Flexible working, for instance, the amount of firms that don't let their power planners work from home or administrators work from home or their advisors, and it's like they expect them to be in the office and you know, really old school kind of thinking.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like these are the things that people value a lot, not just youngsters, everybody does who's got kids and they want to live their life and you know, do them be at home to do some of the things that they don't want to do at the weekend, they want to get it done during the day, you know.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think flexibility, um, the benefits packages, and uh it it they do need to change within financial planning because they're pretty dull and boring, if I'm if I'm honest when I come up against it.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: But that's because I think a lot of the people who run financial planning businesses, they tend to just be good IFAs.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not business people, they're not forward-thinking, they're not entrepreneurs.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: That and I do passionately believe that there is a massive difference between doing a job as an IFA or financial planner and being an MD or a director of a company, they are chalk and cheese because you're good at one has no relevance to whether you're going to be good at the other.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think because so many people who run financial planning businesses are not just as in in being negative here, but they're just good IFAs, they're just good financial planners, and therefore they tend to lack that business acumen or that dynamic thinking or that way to improve what they offer for their community or their clients.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: They just think, oh, I'll do it for myself because I don't want to do it for somebody else.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a reason to run a business, in my opinion.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I agree 100%.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned um previously when we spoke before that one of the best things you've done is to create like a board of directors.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: And to not only just have a board of directors where, like, for example, you're bringing this younger chap on to the board who can gain who's who's worked for your business and gives you a different perspective, which I think is definitely forward-thinking, right?
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: But also as well as having a diverse board, and sometimes those are people that aren't even employed within your business.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you've looked at non-executive directors.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_02: So just tell us a little bit about your board.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we we were really early adopters of a of an NED, uh, if I'm being honest.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um God, it must be 13 years ago or nearly that uh that we engaged with Gary Lumby as our non-exec director.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: We'd worked with Gary, believe it or not, uh, in our time at the Yorkshire Bank.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: Gary ended up being one of the main European board directors at Yorkshire Bank.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: So he was a very educated, very well experienced um person within financial services.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: And again, to have reached that level within a big corporate institution, you get to have seen it all, let's say, and and experienced a lot more than probably we we ever would.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I've always been a believer that I don't know everything, I still don't know everything, I don't claim to know everything, and in a weird way, I probably don't want to know everything.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: But if someone can show me, teach me, educate me, or give me other ideas or opinions, then why wouldn't I listen to them and why wouldn't I take them on board?
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: So when Gary was actually leaving his role as a director with the bank, because he lived local to where we were, we or I congratulated him uh on his uh early retirement, let's say.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, if ever you've got any spare time, do you want to pop in and see what Paul and I are doing?
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a few years since we saw you.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and he came over and he was really impressed.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: We articulated this what we'd done so far, where we wanted to get to.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, and if you wanted to be part of this, if you ever wanted to help us and you wanted to come out of retirement and and and such like, um, we'd appreciate it.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: Within probably three or four months, he'd set up a consulting business and became a professional NED, and we were his first client.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm delighted to say he's still on our board today.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, having that external person who we trust um is a great individual to have from a confidence point of view, bounce ideas off them.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: Our ideas aren't always right, my ideas aren't always right.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you only ever got views from internally uh from your business, it might be a bit insular.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: You might be missing a massive trick.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so to have an external person um say something and challenge you around why are you doing it like that?
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: Have you never thought about it like this?
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: You might be missing the most obvious trick in the world, but if all you're ever doing is looking inwards, uh you you might not spot it.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: So an NED for us was uh was a massive step change, and it really gave us that confidence to kick on.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: And to be fair to Gary, it was Gary that uh suggested I go on that Goldman Sachs program 10 years ago.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if I hadn't have gone on that, I I know that Active probably wouldn't be where it is today because we we wouldn't have had the belief in ourselves, we wouldn't have been able to articulate what we were we were doing as good as we did.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: So so yeah, bringing those external people on, it's an absolute must.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: Don't fear somebody criticizing or challenging you.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: See it as an opportunity to learn, see it as an opportunity to develop.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if if somebody challenges you on why you're doing something, take it as a compliment because you should be, if you're doing it properly, you should be able to answer it.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you can't answer it, then it means you're probably not doing it properly.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: I had a really good guy come on my podcast actually quite recently, and he's he's scaled his financial planning business uh over the last couple of years.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_02: He's done a really good job, and he's done it through um mini acquisitions essentially of exiting advisors and bringing him on board and giving them a good home and a succession plan.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of that came through the non-executive director that he brought on, and that non-executive director was somebody that was in like a proposition development role for uh an investment company, I think it was.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_02: So he had a really good relationship anyway with the wider network of financial advisors.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_02: He was always in this development type position.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_02: So when he brought him on as a non-executive director, his business was a lot smaller and the cash flow wasn't there.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_02: So he had to he actually gave equity very early on.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_02: So for him, it was kind of like, oh Jesus, am I going to give up some equity this early on for somebody as a non-executive director to get that level of experience?
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: But he's so glad he did.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that was his approach to non-executive director.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think he's got like he's bringing his third non-executive director on within the last two years, but he's got his business has done extremely well off the back of definitely having those non-executive directors, and now he's bringing somebody on who's got a really strong marketing background and and leaning into that person.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's a nervousness, isn't there, when you run a business to to take on non-executive directors.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like I own my own recruitment business, and you know, we'll probably do 1.5 million this year, and I want to do uh sort of two and a half, three million in the next two like maybe two years' time, three years' time, something like that.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but but I also know that and there's no sort of disrespect to my fellow Business owner or other director, but we are limited in our knowledge of how to push forward.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we we've we've done well to run this business and get it to a point.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_02: But like what you said earlier on in the conversation, I think there's a I think there's things that can be taught to me that will open my eyes and and and change my perspective and really push me forward.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I really, really want a non-executive director.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm it's funny I've had this conversation with you and I've had this conversation with him now, and I think it's something that I'm definitely going to explore.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_02: But there is that nervousness of like, why is it that we're happy enough to pay if we're an employee?
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_02: But like when it comes to non-executive director, it's like, oh, it's a feeling like you shouldn't be like it's an an added cost or something when it's like you have to understand the value of what that person brings.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I assumed you still interview, you know, you obviously knew this person well and the accreditation, their background and everything, it kind of spoke for themselves and you were pleased to get that person on.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: It was almost a headhunt, right?
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: But you are still, you know, non-exec directors tend to have one or more than one client, right?
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's a business within its own right, and it's it's definitely something that I would definitely explore in when I'm sort of in my 50s or something like that, because it's a great money earner, you know, when you've got that experience.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: But you've still got to interview them, haven't you?
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_02: You've still got to kind of like you don't you don't just bring them on and just like you still expect something back from them, right?
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_02: You there is a return on investment that you're looking for, and they still come along to your like director meetings and you still kind of question and they input and you work out whether or not you're gaining value from them.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: And at any point you can just drop that connection, can't you, if you want?
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_02: But sounds to me like over those years that they've been in your business, it's it's been a value add, right?
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it, you know, it's it's it's a reassurance.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's I see it as a bit of a safety net.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: If I if I've got an idea and I can't decide whether it's good or bad, I might run it past Gary our NED before I bring it to the board table.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: If I think rather than be laughed out out of the room, as it's this is a ridiculous idea.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_00: Why have you even thought of that?
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's to bounce things off.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, we've spoken before about you know, running a business can be a lonely place.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: You might be in a place where you don't want to speak to your fellow directors about how challenging it is when you're when things aren't going well.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: Having an NED that is someone who is loyal, who you trust, who you get on well with, it's it's invaluable having that person at the end of the phone.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or you know, to just to pick up the phone and say, Can I have 10 minutes with you tomorrow and have a quick coffee?
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: I just need to talk to you.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because you might not want to do that with your business partner, you might not want to share that with the wider team.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: You might be embarrassed, you might be overthinking something, you might be thinking something's happening when it's not.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, for all of those reasons, to have that individual there who is ultimately there to help you and your business, nothing else.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: They're not there to drag you down or hold you back.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, they don't want their blot on their CV as an NED, do they?
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, they're gonna be there to support you and encourage you and hopefully develop you and push you, which I I can hand on the heart to say our NED has done for probably everybody within this company, to be fair.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's great gain perspective.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like having a coach as well, but also if you pick the right NED, they're well connected.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_02: So they also understand your business, but also know how to develop your business because either they've worked with similar businesses or they've built businesses and sold.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_02: There was one guy actually that stood out to me, and I'm thinking of now, and like he's built, he built uh a financial planning, sorry, built a recruitment tech company.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_02: And the way he built it was through what I'm building, which is developing like digital marketing recruitment to support recruitment consultants and using that as a product and service and selling that as an selling that as a product and service to our clients.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I'm stepping into it.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I had this great conversation back then about it, and he was talking to me about how the value of our business can go up from being like a four times value set sale valuation valuation to nearly 12 times if I can implement that product product service.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, I've done it, so I know how to do it.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember looking back there, and that was like a grand and a half a month for him.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I definitely gonna pick the phone up to him next week and I'm gonna re-engage with that and I'm gonna push exactly that that I want NED because it's too many people talking to me about the benefits of having one to ignore it now.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're at the point and at the stage where I think it's massively um important that I invest in it.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's good.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for sharing that.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate that.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of reinforcing it.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_02: I do like talking to business owners as well because it kind of it's a lonely place sometimes, isn't it?
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Being a business owner and having these ideas running around in your head.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: And am I doing it right?
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_02: And often when we just drop the guard a little bit and just expose a bit of vulnerability and ask the questions, you learn a lot.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're all we're all human ultimately, aren't we?
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I think anyone who runs a business and says it's all plain sailing and says it's hunky-dory and they absolutely love it, and it's uh never there's never a dark moment or a down moment, I don't believe them to be fair.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Have you had some have you had some moments where it's stressed you out and like you've suffered meant with your mental health for any, for instance, at all?
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, god, yeah.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think uh again, I've always been quite open about it.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um I probably wasn't at the time because I didn't understand what was going on.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but having seen, let's say, having seen some close people to me struggle themselves, it made me suddenly aware that when I started um struggling, I was probably aware of it.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh whereas if I hadn't known my friends go through issues, I probably might not have spotted it in myself, if that makes sense.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've always been an open book.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I've always believed being an open book should be uh should be embraced, and uh I will share everything that that I have with people uh because that's who I am, and people can it's their choice whether they then like it or not.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a facade that uh and a front that I wear.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So when I started struggling, I think it was about five years ago, um mine was around again.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_00: We we spoke uh off camera about I I do have OCD in a little bit of a way where I like to get things done, and therefore I probably put too much pressure on myself at times.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_00: That can then manifest itself into you're doing too much, it's not possible to do everything that you're doing, and then it's the well, so and so has asked me to go there, and that's a nice invite, so I should go, and then all of a sudden it's almost um it's consuming, then isn't it?
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_00: It just absolutely overwhelms you.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up in a position where what I was expecting of myself wasn't possible, and it wasn't nice to be in that position because I was still trying.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's the good old uh Brownlee brothers when they were running towards the finishing line and one's trying to carry the other one over the line because he's broken his ankle or whatever it was a few years back.
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was almost like I know I'm struggling, I know I cannot get over the line, but I was still trying my damnedest to do so.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it it's just what it's what's in us, isn't it?
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you are an entrepreneur, if you are um someone who's motivated and driven, you know, you do you you probably are too self-critical, you probably do try and do too much.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_00: That was that was my biggest downfall, if I'm being honest.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it took me to to speak to somebody, to speak to somebody externally, um, to bear all and pour my heart out and everything, and uh and ultimately it was all it just came back for me of putting everything into perspective and putting things in their box, not overthinking them, not trying to be all things to all people, not trying to say yes to everybody because you can't, and the ultimately the only person who suffers when you do that is yourself.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I know I'm being very, very simplistic about it here, but ultimately that's what it came down to, and I've had to really adjust over the last five years to only take on what I'm capable of doing.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And again, going back to your point earlier around having different directors and different boards, um, constitutions, I can't be all things to all people.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be all things to all people.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's somebody who can do something better than I can in this business, why am I not going to recruit them?
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I not just gonna let them do it?
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Why would I get myself involved?
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you're better at that, come here, I'll look after you, frack on because it helps me not be that trying to spin too many plates.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately it it's a bit of self-preservation in in my own uh mind as well.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_02: I like it.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's good advice that is.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's also like like letting go, it's letting go the need for control.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of the time, I think, especially when those early stages of running the business, you kind of do have to do everything because you can't afford it, can you?
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it'd be brilliant if you get someone says, well, just hire loads of different people that can do all the things that you don't want to do.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, yeah, but I haven't got the money to do that yet.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a kind of catch 22, isn't it?
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you you have to build the fuck your income by having to spin a load of plates.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_02: But it's knowing when to stop spinning those plates and when to let go and say, right, now I need to reinvest some of that money that I'm making, those profits.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_02: I need to reinvest it by hiring the right people around me to free me up to do the things I'm really, really good at.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_02: It took me a long, long time to work that out.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_02: We went through a similar situation.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_02: I went through the same thing in my business and hit a massive wall of depression, anxiety, and stress and and overwhelm and all of that.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to keep on checking, I have to check myself all the time, otherwise I can slip into it easily because I'm a dopamine addict.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_02: I I want to do, I'm just constantly trying to want to do things, create things, and I overwhelm myself.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things it taught me though was when I opened up and I shared and my business knew more about it, even around like things like drinking, I became like a heavy drinker.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I gave up four years ago because it was having a detrimental effect on my health.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_02: I uh health and fitness, I work out all the time now.
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a big advocate of that.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, well, what can I do then to make sure that the people within my business are looking after their mental health and their physical health, and and what responsibility do I have as a business owner to do that?
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, it was about making sure that A, that they knew that I'm human, that I had those problems, and these are the problems that I've had, but also that look, I could I could do nothing about it or I could do something about it, and that I can be empathetic as an employer and a boss to your problems, and I am, because we've all got our issues.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I need to put something in place in my business where I can signpost them to get help instead of trying to help them myself, for example, and then burning myself out of thinking, because you can't do that, that's hard work, right?
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_02: And you feel like you want to do that sometimes as a business owner.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I've implemented things like the well-being propositions, well-being benefits, uh, PTing, and we all go down to the gym every Monday and work out together to create that camaraderie and create a healthy style.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_02: We reward people who who run to work or who cycle to work.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_02: We have uh nine-day work fortnights instead of the full five days and we're gonna move on to four days.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh flexible working so people can work from home.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_02: If they feel that they're overwhelmed or tired and want to focus their energy and not be in an office around people, they can do that.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a problem, it's a conversation they can have.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_02: They feel that they're drinking too much, or if they're doing other things they shouldn't be doing, they can have that conversation with me and I can help them with it.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Or we give them eight, eight counselling sessions.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, we're not counselors as business owners, are we?
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I give them the I give them like eight free counselling sessions and and and stuff where they go and see a professional.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think going through the experience yourself, recognizing it, being open and honest of it as a business owner, building that into the culture of your business and the values of your business of support, it massively helped.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that in its own right as well, retains staff because they feel like they're in a place where it's a space to be human, you know, but also there is accountability and responsibility to sort your problems out because no one's going to do it for you.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what we've created here.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's really important once with a whole you know bang the drum around mental health and well-being within the workplace because um we're all human, we all have our problems.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one of the things I just wanted to sort of talk to you before we sort of wrap this up as well is that you are on the chair of Institute of Directors.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was the chair for the Northeast area.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I went down the route of being uh a chartered director, and and then I actually became the chair for the Institute of Directors up in the Northeast and Teesside region.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um as MD, I felt I needed to be a better director, run a better business.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Me being a better financial planner wasn't necessarily going to help the business become better.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Other board members who are more technical than I am, ever want to be and ever will be, they've gone down the technical route because they then train the staff, train the team, etc.
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_00: But for me to be a chartered director, ultimately it taught me again the principles of business and reaffirmed and developed me as an individual and therefore the business.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, I I'd like to think that we run a better business as a result.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the biggest failings in our industry, and it's it's a totally different podcast subject for for another day, but it's around governance and you know the behaviours of some people in our industry, you know, they're they're questionable to say the least.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's scandal after scandal, isn't it?
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think people in our industry, we have an obligation and a duty to act in good faith and have good governance.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's what the regulator wants us to do.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_00: But how many people we know what to do from a regulatory point of view, but do you know what to do from a business governance point of view, in terms of what your obligations as a company director are?
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_00: So to learn and understand and and really focus and emphasize on that, I think it's it's really powerful for people in our industry uh to do that.
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I would strongly advocate anybody within our industry, if you are a director of a financial services business, look at the institute of directors and look at the charter director route.
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because my word, again, I don't sit here as someone who I wasn't born with this knowledge.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've learnt it and somebody has taught me it, and I'm just grateful for those people who've taught me because it does make a massive difference.
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And how long did it last, this qualification?
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_02: How much of your time was spent doing it?
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Was it like a couple of years?
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Did you go to university?
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_02: What how did you do it?
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it was actually through um Leeds Beckett University, was where the courses were held.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And a bit like financial planning, you have the certificate level that you have to do to start with, certificate in company direction, then you have the diploma in company direction.
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then once you've been a company director and you can prove that you've utilized the knowledge of those earlier um cases, then you go for an assessment at the IOD's head office in London and you are assessed a bit like the uh apprentice interview stage, uh, where you are grilled and tested on what you know and the experiences you've had in in your working life.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And they will uh give you that accolade as a chartered director.
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And there are only about 1,500 in the world, I think.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it does rank higher on the on the scale than a master's in business.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh again, it's it's a talking point.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, we spoke before about having a niche.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_00: My niche as a financial advisor is I like to speak to other business owners, and that's we gel on a level because I tend to talk to them on a level as a business owner to business owner, and I do it with the acumen of being a chartered director, and almost the financial planning then becomes secondary because our relationship is at MD to MD level, which I think is quite powerful.
• 1:21:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a great example, yeah, absolutely, of how to build that rapport and build that connection before the actual act of trying to sell your services.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's the relatability again, it goes back to, and the training and the development, the experience you've had about being a better director and a better business owner, the journey that you've gone through to be a better director and business owner, and the failures that you've had and the learnings that you've had during those periods, that period are the things that make you relatable because we've all gone through it as business owners.
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_02: So no one wants the person coming in there telling everyone how to do it.
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_02: They want someone just to kind of have a little bit of uh humour and humanism at it and understand that these things are actually tricky and they are quite difficult and they're relatable.
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I can get that and I understand that.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_02: I've never done anything like that, you know.
• 1:22:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've never done any extra, I've never been much of a I've never been somebody.
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_02: I I listen to a lot of things, so I read a lot and I listen to a lot of podcasts and I talk to people a lot.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I've never gone and done a qualification or I've, you know, like a master's or something like that.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I I sometimes wonder and I sit and I think, would that make me a better director?
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Would it give me some form of contentment or knowledge and that and from that maybe some calm around being a director of a business?
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because I don't find it a calm thing, a calm experience sometimes.
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_02: I I you know, and and I'm so lucky that I've got a team of directors around me, uh like you say, who have got the skills that I don't have that I can lean into, and then we're starting as time's progressed on, like we're in 13, 14 years of working together, and now like as we've gotten older together and we're in our 40s, we're starting to see each other of who we are, and we're being really kind to each other by saying, That's not your skill set, is it?
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, it's like, do you want to do that anymore?
• 1:23:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, no, it's like, what would you want to do?
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_02: Wanna do this instead?
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we're helping each other to do the things we want to do and we enjoy, and from doing that, it's been brilliant, and then we've upskilled and trained people who've been loyal to us within our business and shown the skill set of like people management or something, you know, and those people like we haven't had to take somebody off the tools of recruitment, a good solid recruitment consultant, but took them off the tools to put them into a role where they were now sort of um high-end business development, so they they didn't have a responsibility for doing any billings, they had a responsibility for building deeper relationships on a higher salary and all of that kind of stuff.
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a risk.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_02: But we would have lost him in the end because he would have burnt out and he wouldn't have been enjoyed it, and we've made him a director.
• 1:24:16
  SPEAKER_02: And from doing that, it's it's been freeing, you know, it's been quite it's been quite nice having all these different people in the right positions.
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I am excited about all that over the next sort of 40 years, and I think that's the part of like when you get past that horrible point of building a business and you've got that freedom to be a bit more adventurous, um, and I don't know, a bit more kind of um strategic, then then it becomes a bit more exciting.
• 1:24:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm quite excited about the future.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Are you excited about the future of your business?
• 1:24:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, where do you see it going?
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think uh I think first and foremost, it's it's hard at the moment because there's so much turmoil going on in the world, isn't it?
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I've never really, I don't think we've ever lived during my adult time where there's been so much chaos that is beyond my control, if that makes sense, whether it's political instability, whether it's economy, whether it's the wars, you name it, we all know what's going off around the world.
• 1:25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's really hard to see beyond that when it when when it is beyond our control.
• 1:25:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you got rid of all of that, I know we're never all going to live in peace and harmony, but um, you know, if you got if if you could get rid of some of that noise, I do think the future for financial services is fantastic.
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as as I said it many times, I think we all have a duty and an obligation to lead change and lead development in our industry, keep it improving, keep it getting better, keep encouraging those next generations to come in and keep us, you know, keep learning from other people.
• 1:25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be closeted and keep things to yourself, share best practices because it's it's the only way we're going to keep um, you know, hopefully improving trust in our industry when you know it it keeps uh it keeps being hit, doesn't it, by um ridiculous things that ridiculous people do, which is for if you know I can do the best I possibly can with all the best will in the world.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if somebody at the other end of the country does something catastrophic, we all get tired with the same brush.
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I and we all have this duty to say, come on, we can all make a good living, we can all do well, we can all be moral and and and give a great service.
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Let's all just club together and you know do ultimately the right thing.
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, our industry will then therefore be around for many more years.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_00: If people keep losing faith in us, I think there was a survey last week, wasn't it, about um trusting financial services at an all-time low?
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, if that continues, people won't come back to us, and then AI and digital will take over and our industry will die out because it'll just be done by you know uh technicians somewhere.
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's in our interest to do it.
• 1:26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do you worry at all that it will die out?
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_02: Do you worry, like, you know, you look at the numbers, they are dwindling, you know, there's not enough people coming into the profession, technology is getting more advanced.
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Do you worry that the role of a financial planner within your lifetime, let's say, do you worry that it's gonna go?
• 1:27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Do you worry that you worry about that sometimes with your business, or do you or do you have faith that humans want humans to talk to and that there's good quality advice and as a place for good quality financial planning?
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly that last point there.
• 1:27:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, I am not worried whatsoever about where we've positioned ourselves in our business in terms of that quality advice, that that bespoke personal advice.
• 1:27:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would again, I don't worry because it doesn't affect me, but I'd be worried if I was a generic practitioner doing generic things that you could just go on the internet and and uh uh you know AI could probably do in terms of role or press a few bit buttons and flow chart and such like.
• 1:27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are generic, you're probably more likely to be phased out than than if you are specific, in the same as law, isn't it?
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yes, we can all Google an answer for most things nowadays, but if you want some form of bespoke or uh advice or you have a specific challenge that is unique to you, you will go and sit with a person and and get a person to deal with it.
• 1:28:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if you if you do offer something special, make sure you tell people what it is, make sure you can articulate it, and and I think it will give you longevity um moving forward.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_02: When you talk about legal though, I do think that that's at risk massive because if you do look at the things like look at things like AI and even Chat GPT, the ability to just put in specifically what you require from a contract, for example, that's all can be built by AI.
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Contracts are all gonna be built by AI.
• 1:28:49
  SPEAKER_02: There's gonna be, and they're gonna be perfect.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there won't be a need for human interaction.
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'll charge you 750 quid for that contract to be done, I'll get it across you in the next couple of days.
• 1:28:58
  SPEAKER_02: You'll get your contract back within seconds, within minutes, and it'll be specific to work exactly what you need.
• 1:29:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I think the legal, I think the legal market's up for a massive shake up.
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, look, people want to sit down and talk to humans, and I think people will want to sit down and talk to humans when it comes to money, especially around some of these complex tax issues.
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_02: You've got this great transition of wealth happening, you know, into into intergenerational wealth pass passover.
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_02: People aren't financially educated, they're not, and they are gonna, are they gonna trust using a system?
• 1:29:28
  SPEAKER_02: Do they even want to uh manage their own money themselves?
• 1:29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Even if they've watched a few YouTube channels about doing it themselves, they might have a go and completely screw it up.
• 1:29:36
  SPEAKER_02: So there is always going to be a need to want to talk to somebody who's an expert.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's just whether or not that expert is adding value and standing above the pulpit and showing themselves as relatable, trustworthy, and evident have got evidence that they are supporting people and getting the returns that people are hoping to actually have.
• 1:29:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then it comes down to having confidence in the systems that you have, the proposition that you have, and making sure you're shouting about it from the rooftops and attracting people because as sure as shit, there's enough people out there that need financial advice.
• 1:30:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's just being able to connect to them and speak to them in a way that's relatable, right?
• 1:30:10
  SPEAKER_02: And not the boring kind of concept of what financial planning has been in the past.
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_02: It has to stand out and it has to be relatable to those generations that are going to use it.
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 1:30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Fabulous.
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Carl, been a real pleasure talking to you.
• 1:30:22
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate your time today.
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much.
• 1:30:24
  SPEAKER_02: And um good luck with everything.
• 1:30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:30:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you soon.
• 1:30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Have a good uh have a good weekend with your books.
• 1:30:32
  SPEAKER_02: With my books in the sunshine on my own, because my my wife and my daughter are away, so I've just got the whole weekend to myself.
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Love it.
• 1:30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Nice one, Carl.
• 1:30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, mate.
• 1:30:41
  SPEAKER_02: See you soon.