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Transcript

What I've Learnt - Ruby Kraner-Tucci · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Ruby is a passionate person who used her lived experience to produce human-centred stories relating to Greek multiculturalism and identity.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: We are thrilled to have Ruby join us at the What I've Light podcast.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thrilled to be here.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, welcome.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there's so much that you and I have to unpack.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start a little bit.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll chat about media because your your role is a very important one.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, it's one that not many people have the opportunity to embrace.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: So the fact that you have got a role in mainstream media as a journalist, which is where I started, actually at the Herald Sun.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that landscape very well, but that was many, many years ago for me.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to say it's been an extraordinary trajectory, and I think you're in a great place to do whatever it is, wherever it takes you.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit about where your passion for journalism started.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, that's a really lovely thing to say then, but I completely agree.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's a very privileged position.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think I probably sound very young, but I'm a couple of years or, you know, five or six years into my career.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I started in community news and worked sort of for quite a few different publications, freelance for a while, and was deputy editor of the Jewish Independent for two years, and then have now started in mainstream as the national health reporter for News Corp and Herald Sun.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Very cool that you also started there.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I think my passion for journalism is more my passion for storytelling.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's really the crux of journalism, right?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like storytelling in all of its forms.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's a podcast, it's writing, it's, you know, video.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I just love telling stories, and that's very much from my sort of family history.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of grew up in a very multicultural house, and lots of different stories from lots of different parts of the world kind of filled my childhood.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I've just carried that through, and I really love being able to advocate for people through storytelling, and this sort of role combines the two really nicely.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would totally agree with that.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right, it is a privilege.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think also, particularly in this climate, I mean, it's always been a privilege to even start.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I started as a cadet at the Herald Sun, and that was really challenging to even get that role, as you know.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And your role as a national journalist is also very broad, but also very exciting because you get to tell the health story across many platforms.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about how you're finding the health landscape because you and I have got some interesting stories to share.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly, I know you had a very personal experience that I'd like you to talk to in losing your father, sadly, but you went through a very difficult journey through that process in the health system.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to both of those.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um health in terms of my role, it's so broad.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can write one day I was writing about young nudists and new, you know, women who are joining the nudist community.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then just last week I was writing about a really tragic story of a nine-year-old who passed away suddenly.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it is a really broad field, but that I think is what the fun of it is, and that's where the kind of joy lies, and that you can really pick up so many human interest-led pieces, and that's very much what I'm about.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, like the national team really sits within the digital kind of world of News Corp.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we kind of primarily write online versus in print, but we do work with the state health reporters as well, so that we're all kind of covering the main parts of the health world for Australians and really kind of homing in on all of the different things that are really impacting day-to-day lives, and then those broader, probably more fun lifestyle pieces that that I, you know, love to read and we need as a bit of a break from the news every now and again.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my my personal experience really came about, and to be honest, health was never really a main goal of mine.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just love to write human-centered stories, but it did come about because about two years ago my dad very suddenly and and unexpectedly passed away, and he was just sort of, you know, the light of my life.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think we've all got that one person who we just can't imagine living without.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, it's a natural order in terms of your parent will always, or hopefully, not in my case, die before you do.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: But sorry, in my case it did, but not as young as it was.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: He was young.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he wasn't.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 57.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: So my grandmother is still alive, so she had to kind of go through that process of, which is something I think nobody should ever have to do.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, I agree, very sad and hard story.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so part of sort of, I guess, my interaction with the health system really for the first time was my dad being an ICU for three weeks, and that was in a private hospital, and it was just the biggest emotional roller coaster that I can ever think about being on.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I remember I didn't eat essentially all day and trying to I just have no appetite.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I didn't sleep well.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was just so emotionally fraught because every day was sort of something new, and we'd often go to bed thinking, would he make it through the night?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, you know, it was a really, really painful place to be in.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it really opened my eyes, I think, to how people interact with health in our society and made me really want to advocate for people who may be in situations like mine or or other situations where hospital life is a reality for them.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you actually, I was reading the article you wrote, which was actually really you said some really powerful things.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't mind, I'll just quote.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: You said, as someone with limited knowledge of healthcare, questioning the expertise of workers who fight every day to keep strangers alive felt daunting and inappropriate.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I now know that asking for a second opinion is not a symbol of distrust, but rather a message of love and something we as consumers of our health system are entitled to.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that was a really powerful and I'm sure it resonates with a lot of people.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you're in a, you know, you have your own personal story where you you saw from unfortunately, and it was a difficult journey, but you saw inside the system.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's also so you're getting sort of that view, and then you're getting the helicopter view as a national health reporter.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we do know, particularly with the budget coming out last week, talking about the challenges of the health system and trying to actually improve, particularly for women's health, but that's a whole other discussion which we can tap.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: How did that feel for you?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And has that informed and equipped you in this role to some degree?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I mean, absolutely.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think any role where you've got some kind of lived experience that you can bring in makes your job like it will resonate more with you and empower you to want to do well in that role.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I I hope that comes out in my writing.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: That it is funny the way that you read that back to me, Dough, because I was like, oh wow, did I write that?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: You did, and it was very well written, I might just say.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think it was very long after my dad died that I wrote that article because I was I remember just being in a real fog of grief.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, that's like a work, a kind of description that I think a lot of people would resonate with, that sort of, you know, not seeing very far ahead and very just yeah, a blur, disoriented, all of those sorts of things.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I wrote that article in like half an hour.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: It just completely poured out of me.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it it was a very cathartic process, and I think that's why writing kind of it comes naturally, but it's also very much how I make sense of what's happening in my life and and the world around me.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, asking for a second opinion, like it's a really tough thing to do.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have no background in medicine, in nursing, and yeah, like I think that's you know, a lot of a lot of us.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And to to have someone stand before you who's really clear about what's going on, and for you to have to say, I don't know if that's right.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like it isn't something that we feel that we can do because you do feel like you're really questioning their expertise instead of reframing it as, well, what else can I do?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what else can I cling on to in any way to support this person that I love so much?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um, for me, what that meant was, you know, I think I also wrote in that article something that was new to me is that when things are really tough in an ICU environment, they'll take you into a different room and talk you through your options.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember, you know, I'm I think I was only 26 at the time, so I wasn't young, but I was so naive.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought when they took us into that room that it was a positive thing, it was like, let's have a family meeting and talk about what's happening next.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it kind of felt like we were finally sitting down with the doctor who could tell us what was going on.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: But the doctor that we had just sort of listed all of the things that were going wrong for my dad, you know, how all of his different organs were shutting down and there was nothing that we could do about it.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just blindsided.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: I just thought, what do you mean?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you can't, you know, this is my dad that we're talking about.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is just the most beautiful person in the world.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, she was very clear that that that was the end.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: And thankfully, someone else in her team had suggested putting him on dialysis, which didn't improve his health, but it it kept him alive for a couple of extra days.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we, you know, my close family, my brother and and mum got to properly say goodbye to him and and spend some time with him.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that, like, just that suggestion, just those extra days, just a little bit more of an ending was meant the world.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so if I think if I'd been empowered to question things more from the start, I don't think anything could have really helped him.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I might have felt better coming out of that process, having, you know.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a really the story you tell is a very common one.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose that all goes to whether the system is equipped on many levels to help with what is often a complex medical story or health story.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: I certainly think in your role, this would, as you say, the lived experience would help you maybe understand many of the articles and stories that you're telling, because in some ways you have an empathy and you know, a real sense of what people are dealing with.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that I mean there's just so many, I can only imagine how big the health reporter file could be, right?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would so imagine those auditorial meetings would be, you know, from the change of PCOS to PMOS to right through to like all of the changes from the health budget, right through everything that you see coming across Judas, the gender health gap, all of that.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel that that the powers that be, the publishers and the media are actually open to this discussion more moving forward?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think it's still an uphill battle to get those stories on slate and out into the world effectively?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh that's such a good question.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: It is, I think it's still a struggle.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we don't really tend to talk about things like grief, like health, or these sort of big topics that really impact us without some level of stigma.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a few conditions or diseases that have cut through, like we talk about cancer really well.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: We understand cancer.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I think anything that is, you know, especially when it comes to women's health, anything that's slightly taboo or it doesn't impact the majority of the population, you know, one in two people will get cancer in our lifetimes as it stands now.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's something that we're all, you know, 50% of us have a chance of facing or our loved ones or so it's it's really more far more common, even though women are just as much, you know, in that 50% of the population, it's just seen as having some kind of stigma, and that does travel up through the through the media kind of editor layers.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think what I try to do in my work is sometimes, you know, with journalism, sometimes you get given an idea and you have to roll with that, and that's what your editors want.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just sort of try to do the best that I can within the kind of frame that I'm working in.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if it is about women's health, instead of it just being something maybe more top level or just an overview, I'll try and dig in deep and find those women who are actually experiencing the problems and tell their stories or invite them to contribute a first person piece or try and bring that emotional element because I think, especially in health reporting, the more human you can make it, the more people are going to engage with it.
• 13:38
  unknown: Absolutely.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: But it it's definitely it's like all these sorts of topics where really big change is needed, it doesn't happen quickly.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I mean, I'm I've seen quite a lot of media on endometriosis, on those new clinics that have opened up, as small as they are, there's better than nothing.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's big moves around menopause, and there's a whole lot of, you know, certainly I'm seeing if I look at what I'm seeing across the media landscape, there is it is a conversation, and I don't think that was a conversation five years ago, many of those items, because you've got very high-profile people coming out, like Bindy Owen talking about it and her struggle, Bruna Papadrea.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are a lot of people, and the reality is these people draw attention to some of these big health issues.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: For you, what have you seen rising up your editorial list in terms of priority of what you can see is getting traction?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think menopause specifically is not, I don't want to say that it's having a moment because I want that moment to last, but it's definitely more on the agenda, which is great.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: News.com just launched a huge menopause campaign at the start of this year, and and we followed suit with quite a big story into divorce and menopause, which I produced.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: But so definitely, yeah, I I would say actually we just had our big, a big editorial meeting, and some of the things that I guess that is on our radar is very much women's health and menopause.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's also men's mental health and male suicide.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a really big one.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Big issue.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then I would also probably say rural and regional health and sort of access to services, you know, the fact that we can't recruit psychologists or psychiatrists or those mental health professions in regional areas, just the cost of living and fuel rises, meaning people aren't getting to their appointments and so they're being missed in diagnoses and that sort of thing.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: So those three pillars are probably the highest things in our on our watch at the moment.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so are you finding, because so obviously the way that people so when I started, the way everyone had their newspaper delivered to their door, it was just in my brainer, right?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'd wait for the Saturday morning paper to see my big A3 article, right?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's how it came to your door, right?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's so it's so transformed and it's so diverse and it's so across so many channels.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And as you say, obviously you have a major digital presence, but it means that there are a lot more voices, and it is just it's like an avalanche.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I wonder how you navigate those complexities.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was when I was a journalist at The Herald, it was very much editorial meeting, off you go, do your story, bam, bam, bam, and then it was in the paper the next day.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, very like this is like very immediate.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to be on it, you've got to be, I mean, I imagine the pressures are enormous.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about how you see that landscape working and how being up against all the other voices as well.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I know it's like you have there's no voice that I think doesn't cover one topic, right?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: No matter how niche it is, there's someone out there talking about it.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think on the one hand, that is so fantastic.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've never been able to access data and information where, you know, that have made us feel, you know, less alone or even talking about grief.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: If I was to go onto Instagram, there are countless, you know, networks and pages of people who not only uh have experienced grief, but you're young and you've experienced grief.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're young, you've experienced grief, and it's your dad that's died.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like it is the most niche upon niche.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's great if you are belonging to a minority community in some way or you have a minority experience because that does reflect back and you can find your people.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: For mainstream media though, it poses such a challenge.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm such a challenge.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like this isn't new, and I think that there's ways that they people are, you know, the editors and the powers that they are going to really need to adapt.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what that looks like practically, but in terms of my own practice, it's definitely being really strict about finding stories that have not been told before or a particular angle that isn't out there.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if it is a hot topic, how do you find the people that haven't spoken out about it?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it does mean sort of probably more on the research side now, maybe than compared to previous journalism, which could have maybe been more on the writing side.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's sort of a fair split, but I I do spend a lot of time trying to track down these sort of unique case studies.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think, you know, at the end of the day, people will go to trusted sources, and I think trust is now very much that commodity in journalism, and there's a really big push to for journals to own their own profiles and kind of be that go-to source, and so there's probably people will start to notice a lot more ads where the journals are featured as opposed to the topics, because you know, everyone writes about the topics, so I think I'm trying to position myself and especially on social media too.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like everyone's now got their own profile, and I'm terrible at it.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: I find it extremely embarrassing, but it's now a really necessary part of the job.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's definitely going to be a very big push into who are our people and how can these people elevate what we're doing instead of what is it that we cover, because everybody is covering that.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's really kind of a nice, exciting thing for journalists themselves to really own their stories, but it does put a lot more pressure on making sure you're, you know, it's always been this bit the level of mis and disinformation out there.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like you really need to make sure that everything you're doing is is spot on because then now people are coming to you for that.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: And at you, yeah.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's interesting because I suppose the byline was always a coveted thing because it was it was a form back, I mean it still is, but when we, I remember your first, you know, your front first front page cover and all of that, it was very exciting and getting a double page spread in the weekend magazine or whatever.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's always had a sense of ownership, although there's that whole interesting perspective about, you know, biased lens and how a journalist represents a particular perspective.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I find that really interesting because really what you're saying from what I'm hearing is everything's changed, but nothing's changed.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's an element where that is still sort of the path to tread, which is to own your story, own your brand, own your voice, but to ensure, doubly ensure that the sources and what's going out, which we always have to check, that clearly that is a complex marketplace in a way.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of really become almost sort of consumerized.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's really strange.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so as a young, as a journalist who's got a very important role in telling these stories, I can see that requires incredible discipline.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you're obviously under an umbrella of a big organization which helps you navigate that, but you're also very answerable to that too.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there's also accountability at every level.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have do you think you have more liberty or less in terms of that?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: The traditional, I know that's a hard question to answer, but no, no, no.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's more liberty in terms of having a personal brand.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I use that term even though I hate it.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's what it is.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so when I'm posting on Instagram, for example, I'll write a story, and maybe the one thing that's changed up is like everything I write for digital or for print, I make sure I have an accompanying vertical video.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm whereas probably there was that traditional you're a print journalist, you only write if you're a broadcast journalist, then you're only appearing on TV or radio.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's like you're a journalist and you're expected to be able to do all of those things.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think we'll probably see the industry have everyone have a role of multimedia producer in some way, because you are gonna have to juggle all of that.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the liberty where is where it comes, the freedom of you know being able to post to social media is yes, I'm there as national health reporter for News Corp, but I'm also there as Ruby.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Greenacucci, the journalist, and I can put up there stuff that I'm really passionate about, you know, stuff about grief or multiculturalism or speaking at the Sorrento Writers Festival, even though I'm not necessarily connecting that to my role.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, I can talk about health issues and I can talk about the stories that I'm writing.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: So though that's sort of I think where the freedom lies, like you can own who you are.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that was traditionally more for columnists.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think that they very much had that role.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and all of us do.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I think when it comes to journalism, the underlying, I guess, motivations and the ethics around it, the way that you have to produce non-biased stories, and you know, you still don't want to put yourself in the story.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what it is.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, truth, fact-checking, holding power to account, you know, that fourth of state mentality, I don't think that's ever going to change unless the actual journalism industry is wiped out.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Which I don't think it will, because I think that we will always want sources that we can trust.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what we might start to see is more of a push around here's how I source this story, or here's how I made this, and bringing people behind the scenes to show them how we produce our journalism instead of them being constantly bombarded with story after story and not knowing how it was produced.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think we'll be taking them on the journey to kind of showing how it's how the you know sausage is made to put it back to that.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I totally hear you.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I I think that's a really good perspective.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's really, and that it's somewhat comforting.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just on that note, obviously we can, you know, I'd like to segue somewhat.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: The Australian today had an article where Sarah Henderson, the senator, has come out on the front page talking about the SBS and ABC being, and I know I'm not getting you to comment specifically because I don't want to put you in any position, but at the same time, it's coming out talking about their completely biased reporting with regards to anti-Semitism, which you and I are going to talk on because actually I saw you at the Sorrento Writers Festival speak really well in a panel that was focused on the Royal Commission on anti-Semitism and how that was going to play out.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you you really spoke very eloquently.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: So just segueing to that issue, tell us a little bit about being a it's so funny because I remember being a journalist and I was, I think there were two Jewish journalists in the entire news corp when I was starting out.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: I remember just thinking that's just so interesting.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I defined myself specifically by that, but I just thought that was interesting.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So being a Jewish journalist in a mainstream with a very big role, how are you navigating this, particularly since October 7?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you talked to this.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So so just give us a little insight on how you're navigating that that whole complexity.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting um article as well, Deb.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like I agree.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I think, like, just first, no matter what, this is probably a very controversial opinion, but like just in terms of me belonging to News Corp.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think the mainstream media outlets do have bias.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think that you kind of can't argue that, right?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like we know the image in the ABC is left-leaning.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: We know News Corp probably nothing's changed.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's always changed.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's always how it is.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what the experience for me, and maybe for a lot of Jews who belong on the left, is that that anti-Semitism that came out from papers that we really trusted and and kind of sources that we saw ourselves in, there was just like a complete abandonment of Jewish Australia from the left in so many ways.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where I'd find the problem.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think, you know, if you're if you are progressive, you're going to go to sources that reflect what you want to read and and what's important to you.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so then if you're going to those sources and they're, you know, not giving any air time to anti-Semitism or they're not really appropriately portraying it, then that's the narrative that you get fed.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like mainstream media has a really big responsibility to fairly present a situation, whether or not they lean one side or another.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think being a Jewish journalist, like I was, I'm very much the same as you.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: I never wanted that to be a defining characteristic because it's not for me.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and also I'm such an intersectional person too.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I had grown up with my Italian side being just to me as important to me as my Jewish side.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of a sudden, post-October 7, I was thrust into this role of, well, you're the Jewish journalist.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that meant that you could only write Jewish stories.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it kind of worked to my favor because I was for a long time during that period at a news outlet called the Jewish Independent.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was a really tough time to be a Jewish journalist right in the Jewish face.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right in the you are right in the right in the eye of the storm there.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think I started like a month after October 7.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'd signed my contract before, but I was still traveling.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I started just after, and then I finished the week of Bondi.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it was this really traumatic, and that was extraordinarily traumatizing.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it still is for everyone who works there.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just kind of having to be day in and day out in this space.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember we'd always get to a Monday meeting and be like, oh, well, you know, it's quiet so far.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then by the time the meeting was over, you know, there was no relief really.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that it was a real privilege to serve in that position for that time.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: But now that I've come out of it and I'm working in a broader field, I find it very difficult to get issues affecting the Jewish community across in my work.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that really pains me because I loved it.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I felt like I found this beautiful sort of advocacy angle of it as well.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think as much it's like this with anything, and it ties back to grief as well.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: When something happens in your life, it's so affecting for you, right?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like that you can't see your world in a different way.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: But for the majority of people, saying most people do not know my dad.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't really have any understanding of what I was going through.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very much like that with being Jewish.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think people just thought, oh yeah, I don't really know a Jewish person, whatever, they're just a minority, it's fine.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And they just got on with their lives while there was a whole community that was begging for help.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, stepping out of that space, I think it's it's really hard to get a lot of people to realize that that's still going on and we're still sort of needing that support.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: It like it hasn't gone away, even though fun days happened, and you know, there's a royal commission, like it's just still hit after hit.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh, I totally agree with you.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the conversations around it, I mean, I thought it was even interesting that at the Sorrento Writers Festival that they had that panel, that you were on it.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: There was uh Linda Dessa, there was also, I think it was Paul Kelly, and then so so that was an interesting platform, but it, you know, and they navigated that reasonably well.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: But you're in a really sort of, as you outlined, you're in an interesting space where you have taken on a role, which is a national health, but at the same time, your Jewish journalist inverted commas role has in a sense, it can't help but have been elevated to the foreground by virtue of what's happened around you, not because you're walking around saying, you know, and I I relate to that to some degree.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I have a very big platform with on the podcast, but I have interviewed Rachel Goldberg-Pollen, but I'm not a, and I've interviewed Elon Levy and I've interviewed people along the journey as part of the story of the podcast.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not a Jewish podcast, it's a broad podcast, but I have the stories, and those have been very prominent stories.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously you can't bring the Jewish story into the health portfolio because it doesn't actually align.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: But do you feel pressured in some ways to bring it to the foreground?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or are you tapped in other ways in your role, either privately or publicly, to be a voice for the Jewish community?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's definitely the sort of crux of it is that health doesn't, anti-Semitism doesn't really fit into health.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I wouldn't, I I kind of don't want it to, in that it was the reason I left was that I I needed a break.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I just had burnt out from from working in that space, from grieving, you know, all of these losses and then being Jewish on top of it.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I had definitely been a bit tapped down and was looking for something different.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think privately, or I don't know if it's I guess separately to News Corp, being part of the ruptured book, which is why I was at Sorrento Writers Festivals of the 36 Women who spoke about life as an Australian Jewish woman post-October 7th, that that's just been an incredible project to be part of.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that any of us realize how big it would get.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been very great to just sort of be seen amongst these really like talented, high-profile, lots of celebrities, you know, Jewish women just talking about life and getting to do opportunities like that.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I also agree that that panel was interesting.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think Lee Kaufman, who was Lee Kaufman, yes.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, is our co-editor.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think she was telling me that it was one of two panels.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the book came out last year, and there's been countless writers' festivals since, and it was one of the first two that she'd ever been invited on.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: So she said that, yeah.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, she I remember she got up with extraordinary gratitude, bordering on obsequious, to basically say thank you so much for including me.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sitting there thinking, like, why not?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why is she having to be so that that just shows the it really highlights the, I suppose, the pressure on people in the arts communities, which we know, but particularly the writers' festivals.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: She was literally like, it was just really moving, I thought, the way she was sort of saying, Thank you for giving me this platform and my voice.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that says that was very telling.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you kind of just thought, well, like, of course we belong here.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like we wrote a book on this topic.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone here has written a book on a topic.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why wouldn't we be invited to speak?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I think um, yeah, very telling of the the kind of artistic and literary community sort of attitudes towards Judaism right now.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I think being part of that's just been the absolute honor.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the reason I guess I'm sitting here with you now.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I was saying, I think having that sort of Instagram account or some kind of other platform, maybe it's you know, a newsletter or some other a Facebook group, whatever kind of context it comes in, a WhatsApp group, having something that you can own as like sort of you, me, Ruby, as the journalist, as opposed to me the journalist for News Corp, does mean I get to keep writing and and speaking out and and sharing stuff about being Jewish in in Australia.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and I really love that because I think I think that journalism's probably heading in this sort of advocacy world anyway.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: And if I can't fight that, you know, like I don't think it's worth fighting that.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And if so, then let me join in and and actually advocate for what I want to be seeing, which is sort of just this Australia that accepts all cultures in its, you know, branding of being a very multicultural place.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't exclude culture.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an Australia where we're comfortable sitting with people who have different opinions to us.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've sort of lost this art of conversation.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I've fallen victim to that too.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes you just are so tired that you just don't want to fight or you don't want to, you know, debate a topic.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it's I think it's kind of hurting us in the long run because we're now just seeing life in black and white, and we're no longer willing to, you know, accept that there's grey, and just because someone doesn't agree with you on something or believes in something different doesn't mean you you can't have them in your life.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for you personally, have you experienced anti-Semitism either in the arts community or in journalism or just on your Instagram or personally, have you been subject to that?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll talk about where you think the Royal Commission's going because that's also interesting.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've actually been really fortunate in that I haven't had it professionally, especially from colleagues.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's never been a problem.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: I guess, you know, when I was at the Jewish Independent, we received death threats quite constantly and a lot of very negative sort of comments that we would have to really police online.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: But that was also sort of, you know, we are as an organization, that was so not uncommon.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the I worked in a co-working space in Melbourne for that job, and they had to take their address down from online because they didn't want people knowing where.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, like I'm sure you've spoken about this too, Deb, but the fact that when you have an event in the Jewish community, you don't release where it's going to be until an hour or two before because you don't want people to know.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that sort of stuff I think I've accepted as commonplace, even though it very much is not.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think personally what's hurt the most for me since October 7th is that before that, you know, I think I very much operated as a good Jew, and I mean that in a way of that I think with my identity, I was a bit of a shape shifter.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if I was with a certain group of people, I'd talk about my Jew Jewish identity in a certain way.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, I'd always having the Italian Jewish side, it was always food and family.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that was sort of the way I described it.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you can't really get angry with food.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like everyone loves food.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it was always the best approaching a conversation.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I probably I would have kept it fairly lighthearted and and jovial, and I wanted people to be interested, and I didn't need to go into politics or anything like that.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: But then post-October 7, it was this incredible shift from friends who I've had since I was, you know, in mother's group of all of a sudden, well, I'm Jewish, so I must be Zionist, so I must be pro-Israel, you know, almost decimating an entire group of people in Palestinians.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, and that came from nowhere.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: There was no conversation with me about my beliefs.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: There was an understanding that I was left-leaning and progressive, but that did not translate to supporting Israel or Israel's government.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: So there were just so many assumptions.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: It came to a head a few times.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I think there was a a couple of instances where friends just did not know how to respond.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I had a lot of silence, which was really isolating.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for me, I was also navigating the loss of my dad, and a couple of weeks later, my grandmother, and then another death very quickly after that.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I was just in a real fog, um, like we said before.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the the worst story, if I've got time to just share a little bit.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yes, please do.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is probably which I think I said on the panel as well, but that I was out for drinks with some of my friends who I've known since primary school, and this was post-Bondi.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: So 15 people have died in our room, like the murder strategy murder that I've ever seen in my life.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, shocked everybody.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And my lifetime as well.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I'm a lot older than you, and I was very, very shaken by that whole experience, as we all were.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that was a bit of a turning point for some Australians who maybe hadn't quite questioned what their behavior actions was like.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was meeting with these girlfriends, and we were just chatting, and I sort of one of them was a social worker, and I said that there was a job going at a Jewish organization, and I knew people there and thought it would be a great fit for her, and she was looking for work.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Oh no, I I don't think I could work there.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: It it didn't even cross my mind that it was to do with this organization being Jewish.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and that I wasn't even mentioning it in a kind of, you know, in a way that I was trying to provoke her.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was just thinking, what a great job.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, but didn't that organise?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: I said, why not?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Well, why I thought that organization posted about October 7 on Facebook.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Well, yes, but that was a massacre of, you know, even more people.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that was an act of terrorism.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Well, I I don't support, I don't want to work for an organization that isn't pro-Palestinian.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, I'm pretty sure you'd find a lot of people there are very pro-Palestinian just because they're Jewish, you know, that's not one or the other.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: And she just wouldn't let me, she wouldn't accept that I that you could be Jewish and maybe be Zionist and also be pro-Palestinian.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: She just could not accept that as a reality.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to her, I was like, Well, if you don't want to work for a place like that, do you not want to be friends with me?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And she just said, Oh, well, of course not.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, of course I do.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, I fit the exact same criteria as the reason that you don't want to work in this place.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the conversation just naturally moved on, and I was so angry.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember that, you know, this is again not even to trying to my point of let's have difficult conversations, but I was so overwhelmed and angry that I just left.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I got a very distress.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I got a very weak apology that later that night saying, I'm sorry if I upset you, or you know, I understand the difference.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it was just there was no willingness to even question this sort of held belief about this narrative that has been created and I just think is entirely not true.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so tiring to have to keep defending your identity to people that should be your friends.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that sort of comes into the Royal Commission as well.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a very exhausting time for Jewish people for that very reason.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we can discuss the Royal Commission.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming you did you you make a submission?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: I certainly did.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming you did.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Halfway through writing my number.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, I know quite a few people who who spoke publicly, family and and friends, and some of the testimonies were really moving and very powerful.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm watching it and I'm thinking, where's this going and what's it going to achieve?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and we talked to this in the panel, or you talk to it in the panel.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's really what the focus of the panel was.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: It was so interesting, I thought, what Paul Kelly said.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: What's your take on it?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: What do you see as it having do you see it as a witness statement of sorts?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's the biggest thing that it will achieve, personally.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think that Royal Commissions don't always tend to produce practical outcomes, and we know that from history.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think just this process of having person after person take the stand and say really clearly what's happened in their lives without any interruption, without protests, without anyone stopping them, is a remarkable, a remarkable thing.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if that's all it achieves, I think I'm, you know, I hope that that's not all that it achieves.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: I hope it does more.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess the cynic in me knows that that's not often what happens.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: So just seeing people take the stand and and say stuff that's so like, come on, Jeff.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like some of this stuff, you think, how is this in Australia?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like teachers, I know, it's surreal.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and security guards that people just we've just grown up with at schools, at synagogues, at every event that we have all just grown up with.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's just seen as normal.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think some people, I remember someone said to me after one of uh I think a teacher from Bialik or someone took the stand and they were talking about security, and they're like, What do you mean?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like they said to me, Oh, did you have security at your school?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I just kind of thought, you have no idea like what this is like.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's so it's so surreal.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, it's to some degree, to your point, the uninterrupted testimonies, very good point about the uninterrupted, because the protests have been so invasive and so pervasive that it's like they're loud.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: I remember being at Monash, and I was a Lotsworth editor, and I remember me and my cohort, she was as well Jewish.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: We literally, the loudest were a very vocal and extremely aggressive minority.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can't hear the other voices.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I think the commission to some degree has given us based on what you're saying.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: I totally agree with you.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, whether it will action change.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: I saw that they've implemented as an interim measure the interim report of the they're they're going to implement most of those recommendations.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do you see that?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and what are you getting any resonance at News Corp?
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Are you getting any vibe?
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is anyone talking about it, or is it just not even a thing?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure it's that big of a thing, but that being said, I'm very much in health land when it's when I'm at News Corp.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not being surrounded by those sorts of conversations.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Although I I do know the Herald Sun's written some of some news reports on some of the testimony, and and the Australian, I think, has just done a remarkable job at anti Semitism and you know, and this is also coming.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think I made a joke about it on the panel too, coming from someone who Is very you know progressive and might not read the Australian, but I think it's a it's been unparalleled in how it's tackled this issue.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think that my biggest worry is that changes may be made, but we now will have a generation of people who will forever see danger as something that's a dirty word or a negative thing.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we had that for my grandparents' generation, which was Holocaust survivors on my mom's side.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that was their entire life.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: That was families dying and this terrible destruction and you know, poverty and death and everything.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think maybe it recovered a little bit in the next generation.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think it still impacted, you know, that intergenerational trauma was trauma, yeah.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, very much is present.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe in a wider societal context, there was slightly more acceptance.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's still anti-Semitism and it didn't go away.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that now it is so prevalent that if you were to just ask an everyday person who doesn't even know a Jewish person, I can almost imagine that they'll have an idea of what they do, who they are, without knowing anyone themselves.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's more what bothers me, I think, is that now there is this, yeah, there's just this sort of cultural thinking around Judaism that is so in line with what happened to, you know, our parents and grandparents.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: Pre-war Germany.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's so interesting to me because it's about narrative, isn't it, at the end of the day.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what what I think the community acknowledges, both globally and locally, is that we haven't told the story very well.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: We haven't been able to get through the mud to tell the story of who we are, where we come from, what matters, all of the missions.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: And this has been something that, whether you put it down to a sense of complacency or whatever it is, it's just a sense, well, we were safe.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everyone's safe.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: My family, for example, are 200 plus years Australian.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're probably one of the oldest Australian families in the country.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: They came as convicts, young boys from London.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a massive community here that is very Australian.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we've been here a long time, since its inception, pretty much.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's about where I suppose your power, superpower, and to some degree mine too, is to tell the story, to try and make sure the narrative is heard, that is not the loudest voice in the room or the protests, or the and from that perspective, the Royal Commission becomes a platform for people to tell their stories.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if it becomes, look, it would be incredible if we get, I think there's extra funding that's coming through.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: And there is definitely some indication of transformation, but it's not going to be anywhere near, I think, what we would hope for.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel positive as a younger person who's having, you know, you've got, I suppose it's it's really your generation and the next generation that I worry about.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to make sure that that you're safe and that my children are safe and the grandchildren.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you how do your what's your community sort of talking to?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think that when you stop having hope for whatever is happening, it starts to become very dangerous.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I would just answer that question in yes, I of course I'm hopeful, because otherwise I I don't want to think about the alternative, you know.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with you.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm hopeful too.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I agree.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that um I think what it's definitely done for a lot of people my age is tighten our social circles and maybe where there were people that we didn't quite know how they felt about us, or in my case, just never would have questioned it until, you know, it did come out that they weren't supportive.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: It made it just meant that we've really understood who we can rely on and you know the connections that we want to foster.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that we'll never be able to change everyone's mind, you know, like that's not something that's ever gonna happen.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll continue for the rest of my life and career to talk about these sorts of stories, and especially for me, you know, I think that there's such a common misconception that Jews are a monolith, you know, that we all agree the same thing, we all practice in the world.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Couldn't be further from the truth.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everyone's like you just sit around a Shabbos table, everyone's got a different view.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: I know, and they'll all tell you that they've got a different opinion too.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's like, yeah.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, you know, like you there are religious Jews, there are non-religious Jews who practice culturally, and maybe they go to shoul every now and again, or maybe they've never even stepped inside a shool or a synagogue, you know?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it is such a varied group of people, and then within that, you've got people who married another Jewish person, or like in my family, someone who married out, which is a bit of a a funny concept.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and you've got multicultural families, so it's not like we can advocate for being Jewish because like you can, but it's so um diverse.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the best thing about it, right?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think most of my reporting, yeah, most of my reporting at the Jewish Independent was about getting those unique experiences on paper, like you know, families where the Jewish dad, like Judaism is matrilineal, obviously, as you know, Deb Deb.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: So had families where the Jewish the dad was Jewish and the mum wasn't, but they were raising their kids Jewish, or I had interfaith families and they're celebrating like me, Christmas and Hanukkah, or Pesa and Easter.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that if we can get to a place where it's not seen as, you know, I I guess I I want to get rid of their mentality that being Jewish is a dirty thing.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or one thing.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: Or one thing, exactly.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, and for that I feel hopeful.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: I I really do feel hopeful because you know, I think we talk a lot about this now because it is affecting our community right now, but minority communities across millennia have faced issues and have faced discrimination and racism and have faced death, and and we're not alone in that.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's probably something we can use to band together and recognize that you know we are all human at the end of the day, and I know I know that's such a cliche, but we really are, like, and that we need to see each other as people first and our culture, religion, whatever it is, is is not just defining qualities.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, on that beautiful note, I totally agree with you, and I've loved having you on the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: I so appreciate it.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us on the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed that interview because we are so privileged to have a wonderful platform where guests come on and share some learned.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's Cross Mountain Climbed.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: We love our shared humanity and we are so grateful to have such a beautiful community.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: So remember to stay curious, kind, and connected, and we'll see you next time on the podcast.