Latest / Hurdle with Emily Abbate / 165. Kai Lightner, Pro Climber

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165. Kai Lightner, Pro Climber · Hurdle with Emily Abbate

0:00
Speaker 1: In anything that you do, no matter how successful you are,
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Speaker 1: no matter how far you get to bring it or
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Speaker 1: go with it, just remembering why you're there and enjoying
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Speaker 1: the process and truly loving what you do is just
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Speaker 1: so important.
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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, Emily Abadi here. You are listening to episode
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Speaker 2: one sixty five of Hurdle, a wellness Fogus podcast where
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Speaker 2: I sit down with inspiring individuals to talk about big wins,
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Speaker 2: tough moments, and everything in between. On the show, you
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Speaker 2: can expect vulnerability, motivation, and candid discussions with everyone from
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Speaker 2: top athletes and CEOs to aspiring entrepreneurs on what it
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Speaker 2: really takes to follow your passions. My mission is simple
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Speaker 2: to inspire you to be your best self, move with intention,
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Speaker 2: and have some fun along the way. Today I am
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Speaker 2: sitting down with Kai Leitner. He's a professional climber, arguably
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Speaker 2: one of the best in the world from Fayetteville, North Carolina.
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Speaker 2: And get this, he first walked into a climbing gym
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Speaker 2: when he was six years old. Today he's earned twelve
1:18
Speaker 2: national championship titles and that's just.
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Speaker 3: The tip of the iceberg. Really.
1:22
Speaker 2: We talk about it all from the why behind, how
1:25
Speaker 2: he started in the sport, dealing with adhd as a
1:28
Speaker 2: young kid looking for an outlet to channel that energy
1:32
Speaker 2: to how he feels about being the only person of
1:35
Speaker 2: color at his level, so to speak, in climbing. We
1:38
Speaker 2: talk about the importance of access in the sport, and
1:40
Speaker 2: he talks to me about his relatively new nonprofit called
1:44
Speaker 2: Climbing for Change, which aims to help with that by
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Speaker 2: connecting underserved communities with individuals and organizations that seek to
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Speaker 2: increase minority participation in rock climbing in the outdoor adventure industry.
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Speaker 2: He also gets super open and honest about a massive
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Speaker 2: he spoke out about publicly last year, dealing with an
2:03
Speaker 2: eating disorder as a result of the pressure he felt
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Speaker 2: to be the best. He says that taking time off
2:08
Speaker 2: from the sport and going to college was a major
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Speaker 2: game changer for him, helping him get his mind right
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Speaker 2: and reframe his relationship with food for the better. We
2:18
Speaker 2: connected on the heels of Kai being in a campaign
2:21
Speaker 2: for Got Milk, Remember those which I'll link to in
2:25
Speaker 2: the show notes. It's a two minute film called The
2:27
Speaker 2: Wall directed by Jimmy Chin, who you may recognize from
2:31
Speaker 2: Free Solo, and in the film he's scaling a climbing wall,
2:34
Speaker 2: which is legit atop a thirty story building in downtown
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Speaker 2: Kansas City.
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Speaker 3: It's literally remarkable. You have to have to have to
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Speaker 3: check it out.
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Speaker 2: I really really appreciate Kai for his honesty and vulnerability
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Speaker 2: and our conversation, and I want to make sure to
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Speaker 2: mention here that if you or someone you know is
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Speaker 2: struggling with disordered eating, I'm going to be including some
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Speaker 2: helpful resources in the.
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Speaker 3: Show notes, and you are not alone. Make sure you
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Speaker 3: are following along with Hurdle over on social media.
3:02
Speaker 2: It's at Hurdle Podcast. I'm over at Emily a Body
3:05
Speaker 2: and I say this all the time, but I'm going
3:07
Speaker 2: to say it again. If you have not yet rated
3:09
Speaker 2: and reviewed the show in Apple Podcasts, it would mean
3:13
Speaker 2: the world to me if you take the time to
3:15
Speaker 2: do it today, right now, this very second. Then come
3:19
Speaker 2: back and make sure to listen to the episode, but
3:21
Speaker 2: head on and over to Apple Podcasts, rate and review
3:23
Speaker 2: the show, give it five stars, and tell me what
3:26
Speaker 2: you love.
3:27
Speaker 3: That's it for now. With that, let's get to Hurdling today.
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Speaker 2: I am sitting down with Kai Lightner. He is professional climber.
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Speaker 2: A twenty twenty four Olympic hopeful. How you doing today?
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Speaker 1: I'm doing pretty awesome. How about you, guys?
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Speaker 2: Pretty awesome? Pretty awesome? Is like, I'm good. Things are
3:56
Speaker 2: going smoothly.
3:56
Speaker 3: Is there anything you want to tell us right off
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Speaker 3: the bad?
4:00
Speaker 1: I don't know. I had a really great breakfast. I
4:03
Speaker 1: had a morning training at like nine am, and so
4:07
Speaker 1: I feel like my skin is glowing. The vibes are great.
4:11
Speaker 1: It's one hundred degree weather. But so I'm inside in
4:13
Speaker 1: the air condition.
4:15
Speaker 3: That is something to definitely be grateful for.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm doing great. I just feel bad for the
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Speaker 1: people doing our work outside.
4:23
Speaker 3: Amen.
4:23
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of usually climbing outside versus climbing inside. I
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Speaker 2: know when you started climbing, you did so growing up
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Speaker 2: in an inner city, and at that point you were
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Speaker 2: spending a lot of time climbing inside. So bring us
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Speaker 2: back there and talk to me about how you got
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Speaker 2: started in the sport and why you even got started
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Speaker 2: in the sport.
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Speaker 1: Lord, I wish my mother was here. She has the
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Speaker 1: real story. But I've always just I just like climbing things.
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Speaker 1: When I was a kid, before I could walk, I
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Speaker 1: would climb over the baby gasey set around daycare and
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Speaker 1: the monitors just had no way of keep me under control.
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Speaker 1: By the time was four, I would eat lunch on
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Speaker 1: the basketballop. I would just sit in the net and
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Speaker 1: just eat my sandwich. And one day my mother was
5:11
Speaker 1: at school. She's a college professor, and she was talking
5:14
Speaker 1: to one of her colleagues, and she brought me to work,
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Speaker 1: and I decided that while she was distracted, that I
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Speaker 1: should climb the fifty foot flagpole that flew the state
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Speaker 1: flag that was right behind her. So I should be
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Speaker 1: my way up it. And I got to the top
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Speaker 1: and a lady came by and she looked up and
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Speaker 1: she helped me down, and as my mother was like
5:32
Speaker 1: profusely apologizing, she was like, oh, actually, like, let me
5:37
Speaker 1: write down the address local climbing gym, and so she
5:39
Speaker 1: put it on a sticky note. She gave it to
5:41
Speaker 1: my mom and said to try rock climbing. And so
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Speaker 1: the next day my mom brought me into the gym,
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Speaker 1: begged the man at the front desk to get me
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Speaker 1: into the sport because she can't control her ADHD kid,
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Speaker 1: his energy is just crazy. That man at the front
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Speaker 1: desk happens to be my lifetime coach. Now shade mess
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Speaker 1: her and as soon as I walking to the gym,
6:00
Speaker 1: it was just like I never wanted to leave. I
6:03
Speaker 1: wanted to climb every wall, get to the top of everything,
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Speaker 1: and it just kept going from there.
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Speaker 3: That's insane. I love the sundance.
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Speaker 2: And she helped me down the flagpole, as if like
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Speaker 2: this person could actually like get to the top of
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Speaker 2: this fifty foot flagpole.
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Speaker 1: I think it was more of a like keep me
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Speaker 1: calm sort of thing, like, hey, like you should probably
6:22
Speaker 1: come down. I had everything under control.
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Speaker 3: And you remember it. You remember it so vividly.
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Speaker 1: I do. I remember. I can't. I wish I could
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Speaker 1: find the lady, honestly, but yeah, I do remember that.
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Speaker 2: If she's somehow a hurdle podcast listener, a hurdler and
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Speaker 2: she hears this, you are forever indebted to her.
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Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely agreed. I would love to like buy her
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Speaker 1: coffee or something like. Do you know you started all this.
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Speaker 2: So you get into climbing, and you said you got
6:54
Speaker 2: into the gym, and you can't imagine your life without
6:57
Speaker 2: having taken that big step to talk to me about
7:00
Speaker 2: your first few years in the gym. I mean, did
7:02
Speaker 2: you know from the get go that this was going
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Speaker 2: to be something that you couldn't get enough of.
7:06
Speaker 1: Well, funny enough, The thing that really got me into
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Speaker 1: climbing that first day was the man at the front desk.
7:13
Speaker 1: I'd call him that Shane. Shane put me on the
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Speaker 1: rope and he put me on every angle of the walls,
7:20
Speaker 1: every wall in the gym, and I was getting all
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Speaker 1: the way up them. So he put me on the
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Speaker 1: steepest angle and it was a purple taped climb, and
7:27
Speaker 1: I wanted to get to the top, but it was
7:29
Speaker 1: just a little bit too hard for me. But I
7:30
Speaker 1: was too stubborn to come down, and so I grabbed
7:33
Speaker 1: onto these two holes in the wall and I just
7:36
Speaker 1: cried and I wouldn't come down because I really wanted
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Speaker 1: to get to the top. And so Shane was like,
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Speaker 1: like fifteen minutes later, I'm sitting on this wall and
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Speaker 1: Shane's just like, are you gonna come down? I'm like, no,
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Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. And so I made
7:49
Speaker 1: one or two my moves and fell. And I came
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Speaker 1: back every day that week because I had to get
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Speaker 1: to the top of that wall. So I've always just
7:54
Speaker 1: been like competitive by nature, and so Shane saw that
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Speaker 1: in me and asked me to join the local climb team.
8:00
Speaker 1: From there, I just started doing competitions.
8:03
Speaker 2: It's pretty impressive for you because I remember, like I
8:07
Speaker 2: feel like many people go to summer camp, you climb
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Speaker 2: like a rock wall or like just a tall wall,
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Speaker 2: and then you go on the zipline to come down.
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Speaker 2: And climbing up the wall didn't scare me. But I
8:18
Speaker 2: remember when I was like seven years old at summer
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Speaker 2: camp that I climbed with the wall and I got
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Speaker 2: to the top to the platform where I was supposed
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Speaker 2: to zipline down, and I sat on that platform for
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Speaker 2: like I don't know, maybe an hour until it got dark,
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Speaker 2: and was literally forced to get off of it to
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Speaker 2: go down.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's crazy when you like find that
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Speaker 1: thing you're passionate about. Well, like as kids, we just
8:41
Speaker 1: latch onto things so much. But for me, I knew
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Speaker 1: climbing was special because I had ADHD growing up, and
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Speaker 1: my mother tried putting me in a million other sports
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Speaker 1: like basketball, football, baseball, soccer, like all of them, and
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Speaker 1: I wasn't bad at them, but they just didn't hold
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Speaker 1: my attention. I couldn't carry out a play because I
8:59
Speaker 1: mean I would get distracted, I'd sit in an outfit
9:02
Speaker 1: in baseball and just like pick grass, you know, just
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Speaker 1: I couldn't pay attention. But for some reason, like when
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Speaker 1: I was in the climbing gym on the wall, it
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Speaker 1: was the one time my mother did not have to
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Speaker 1: worry about what I was doing where I was because
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Speaker 1: I was just fixated on what was in front of me.
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Speaker 1: Like I just found so much pleasure and passion and
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Speaker 1: like the movement of climbing and like trying to understand
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Speaker 1: and solve the different puzzles that are in front of me,
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Speaker 1: like on the wall. Just like it was a complete
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Speaker 1: obsession and I just wanted to get better and better
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Speaker 1: and it just completely helped me like focus and everything,
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Speaker 1: not only on climbing, but just like help me, hone
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Speaker 1: in my my energy in life.
9:39
Speaker 2: So when does the oh my god, I want to
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Speaker 2: climb everything, I want to do it all the time
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Speaker 2: turn into while I'm actually really really good at climbing
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Speaker 2: and I'm not just going to be doing it all
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Speaker 2: the time. I'm going to like start to see what
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Speaker 2: this could mean for my life.
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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I don't really know when that switch
9:58
Speaker 1: kind of came on. I think at some point I
10:02
Speaker 1: was like I think it probably was like after I
10:05
Speaker 1: won like a couple of national titles actually as a kid,
10:08
Speaker 1: because before I would just like show up and compete
10:11
Speaker 1: and have fun. But like I went to comps because
10:13
Speaker 1: I wanted to see my friends, so I just like
10:16
Speaker 1: happened to do well, and a lot of the coaches
10:18
Speaker 1: across the country were like, he's really talented, like he
10:20
Speaker 1: could be really good at this. I'm just like I
10:23
Speaker 1: don't know, like like I just like climbed for fun.
10:26
Speaker 1: And then after my first Youth World Championships where I
10:30
Speaker 1: placed fourth but I won every round going into the
10:33
Speaker 1: final and like made a mistake, but at that point
10:36
Speaker 1: they were like he could be world champion, and I
10:38
Speaker 1: was like, wow, maybe this is like a career thing,
10:40
Speaker 1: you know. So I literally after that is when I
10:45
Speaker 1: really started getting like real sponsorships and like people started
10:48
Speaker 1: noticing me. I started doing hard things outside. It was
10:52
Speaker 1: like a pretty big transition. So maybe around like thirteen
10:54
Speaker 1: or so, Like my first sponsorship was when I was ten,
10:57
Speaker 1: with climbing shoes, but like it really got serious around thirteen.
11:01
Speaker 2: Wow, thirteen and at thirteen, do you have a manager
11:05
Speaker 2: or is this like you and your mom just kind
11:07
Speaker 2: of taking on the world here.
11:09
Speaker 1: It was kind of like me and my mom. I
11:12
Speaker 1: still don't think either of us really saw this. Like
11:14
Speaker 1: my mother's only purpose of investing in me and climbing
11:17
Speaker 1: was so that like I would just find something to
11:20
Speaker 1: channel my energy and passion into. She was just like,
11:23
Speaker 1: I'm just in full support of you finding something productive
11:26
Speaker 1: to hone in your abilities and help you just be
11:29
Speaker 1: like this better person. In general. She really loved like
11:32
Speaker 1: how many lessons and like life tuning that climbing did,
11:35
Speaker 1: and so she was like, I'll fund this regardless. And
11:37
Speaker 1: so at some point together we were like, this is
11:40
Speaker 1: getting kind of serious. I think we didn't really hire
11:42
Speaker 1: a manager in like last year. My mom was always
11:46
Speaker 1: helping me manage that stuff. But well, my mom's not
11:50
Speaker 1: a normal mom. She has a pH d in like
11:53
Speaker 1: operations research and something else rocket science y that's involved
11:58
Speaker 1: in math and so like, and she works school of business,
12:01
Speaker 1: and so my mother is very in tuned with like
12:03
Speaker 1: helping me negotiate contracts and understanding that perspective, and so
12:07
Speaker 1: she she was a good mamager for years, but eventually
12:11
Speaker 1: it got a lot and we needed help.
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Speaker 2: A mamager also like something else rocket science y is
12:18
Speaker 2: just like the best descriptor.
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Speaker 1: Now, my mom is pretty often, more likely than not,
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Speaker 1: the smartest person in the room for sure.
12:28
Speaker 2: What would you say growing up and getting more involved
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Speaker 2: in climbing, obviously your mom being a big guiding force
12:35
Speaker 2: in that for you was one of the biggest lessons
12:38
Speaker 2: she taught you as you started to gain more and
12:41
Speaker 2: more maybe fame or just success in the sport. Did
12:45
Speaker 2: she say anything to you to kind of keep you
12:46
Speaker 2: grounded on your way?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Actually, my mom we were just talking about this
12:51
Speaker 1: actually a couple of days ago, and my mother's always like, well,
12:54
Speaker 1: because at the beginning of my career, I didn't really
12:58
Speaker 1: like lose competitions very often. By the time I was fifteen,
13:02
Speaker 1: I was World champion, Pan American Champion, Open National Champion,
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Speaker 1: Youth National champion, like I was holding every title that
13:09
Speaker 1: was possible, and I had won like five or six
13:11
Speaker 1: national titles before that, and so my mother would always
13:13
Speaker 1: be like, well, when you lose, or like, when you're
13:16
Speaker 1: not on top, I mean, you have to find a
13:18
Speaker 1: way to accept that and to realize that, like we're
13:21
Speaker 1: here to have fun at the end of the day.
13:22
Speaker 1: At the passion of the sport. I need to hate
13:24
Speaker 1: when you say that, because I'm just like, mom, like,
13:26
Speaker 1: why would you put that energy in the air, Like
13:28
Speaker 1: like I'm doing well now. She was like, yeah, but
13:31
Speaker 1: you can't set yourself up in that way of like
13:34
Speaker 1: you're not always going to be at the top of
13:35
Speaker 1: the sport. There will always be well, you're going to
13:38
Speaker 1: get older, you know, competitions are going to be harder.
13:41
Speaker 1: At some point, some little child might come along like
13:44
Speaker 1: you did and be the person at the top of
13:46
Speaker 1: the sport, and so you kind of have to not
13:48
Speaker 1: only prepare for that but also transcend that, like what
13:51
Speaker 1: is your purpose in this space? And like how can
13:53
Speaker 1: you help others with the platform that you have? And
13:55
Speaker 1: so that's a big reason why like Climate for Change
13:58
Speaker 1: is so important to me, and why I've always had
13:59
Speaker 1: a lot of bombs here work and d I work
14:01
Speaker 1: because like, yeah, the titles are great, they're very self gratified,
14:04
Speaker 1: but like, how can I use this to help others? Now,
14:06
Speaker 1: sometime my mom like drilled into me as.
14:08
Speaker 2: A kid, I promised to double click on Climbing for
14:11
Speaker 2: Change in just a little bit. But I love the
14:13
Speaker 2: reference that you made about some other little kid could
14:16
Speaker 2: just come into the sport. I mean, obviously you started
14:18
Speaker 2: at the age of six and then you started to
14:20
Speaker 2: see a lot of success. Talk to me about how
14:22
Speaker 2: the sport changed for you as you got older and
14:25
Speaker 2: became a teenager and started to become like really a man.
14:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that a struggle for like a lot
14:32
Speaker 1: of people, a lot of athletes and sports like that
14:35
Speaker 1: is like when your body starts to change significantly, like
14:38
Speaker 1: how you to stay consistent and get over that hump.
14:41
Speaker 1: Like for me, I didn't have a transition really from
14:44
Speaker 1: the youth to the adults. I won my first Open
14:46
Speaker 1: Nationals that I competed in when I was fifteen, Like
14:49
Speaker 1: I I've always been on us team in that since
14:52
Speaker 1: and so like for me, it was like it's a
14:55
Speaker 1: thin autopilot, like you know, like I don't really have
14:56
Speaker 1: to do much and to do what I do and
14:59
Speaker 1: hopefully I'll do well. My best is always enough. But
15:02
Speaker 1: as you get older, as my body started changing, as
15:05
Speaker 1: my training started to have to change, and you know,
15:07
Speaker 1: like you start to realize like, oh, like I am human,
15:11
Speaker 1: like I do have to like accept that, you know,
15:14
Speaker 1: I'm not going to win every competition kind of like
15:17
Speaker 1: more someone enjoying that process more so than just enjoying
15:20
Speaker 1: the success of it, you know. Like that that was
15:23
Speaker 1: really the transition mentally that I had to go through
15:25
Speaker 1: because as my body was changing, I had to mentally
15:27
Speaker 1: get over the fact that, like, you're not going to
15:28
Speaker 1: every competition, but you have to still enjoy like going
15:31
Speaker 1: into the gym, into the competitions and being a part
15:33
Speaker 1: of the sport. Well.
15:35
Speaker 2: I think it's like an evolution for everyone, right. It's
15:37
Speaker 2: like I remember when I was younger, I would be
15:39
Speaker 2: able to like go out with friends until eleven or
15:42
Speaker 2: twelve or even later and then wake up the next
15:44
Speaker 2: day and like go do a workout. And that was like, oh, yeah,
15:47
Speaker 2: I'm young, I can do these things. And now, like,
15:49
Speaker 2: if you want me out until eleven, first of all,
15:51
Speaker 2: I don't even know if that's possible.
15:52
Speaker 3: I'll probably fall asleep while I'm out.
15:55
Speaker 2: But I am sure as hell I'm not going to
15:56
Speaker 2: be able to get up at the crack of dawn
15:58
Speaker 2: and like go tackle a treadmill session.
16:01
Speaker 1: Well understood, I'm twenty one, but I'm still like my
16:08
Speaker 1: curfew is like I need to be home by twelve whatever,
16:12
Speaker 1: y'all do I need to be in bed by then
16:15
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted. I think it's because like I'm like such
16:19
Speaker 1: an old man when it comes to my program, like
16:21
Speaker 1: I wake up early to train, like I'm always in
16:23
Speaker 1: the gym. My body's always aching, so I'm just like
16:25
Speaker 1: I don't feel like being out all the time. But
16:27
Speaker 1: that was such a different story. Like as a kid,
16:29
Speaker 1: I used to be able to be in the gym
16:31
Speaker 1: for like six hours straight, like one session and like
16:34
Speaker 1: be perfectly fine, ready to go after no aches and pains.
16:38
Speaker 1: And now I'm like, no, like I need a physical therapist.
16:41
Speaker 1: I need to stretch, like I need a warm up
16:44
Speaker 1: process that is meticulous and gets some of my joints
16:46
Speaker 1: and my muscles warmed up because I will injure something.
16:49
Speaker 1: But those are the type of changes that I guess
16:52
Speaker 1: I'm referencing, where like everything changes as you gets older.
16:55
Speaker 1: Your body does different things and responds to different things,
16:58
Speaker 1: So you got to just have to adapt with that,
17:00
Speaker 1: and also just adapt to the landscape of the sport,
17:03
Speaker 1: because since I've been in the sport, our sport has
17:06
Speaker 1: progressed significantly, even from gyms being hole in the walls
17:11
Speaker 1: and small areas of the country to suddenly having major
17:15
Speaker 1: commercial gyms being in the center of metropolitan areas like
17:19
Speaker 1: that was unheard of when I started climbing, And so
17:22
Speaker 1: you have more kids going to the sport, the training
17:25
Speaker 1: is progressing, our sports and the Olympics, we're getting more exposure,
17:29
Speaker 1: and so as that happens, it's like I have to
17:32
Speaker 1: keep up with the trends, keep up with the field
17:34
Speaker 1: of athletes, and it can be difficult, but I love it.
17:39
Speaker 1: I love the challenge and I love the competition.
17:42
Speaker 2: You're talking about exposure, You're talking about opportunity. I've heard
17:47
Speaker 2: you speak before about being one of the only, if
17:50
Speaker 2: not the only black man climbing oll at least, I'm sorry,
17:54
Speaker 2: one of the only black men climbing at your level.
17:57
Speaker 3: Talk to me about what that's been like for.
17:59
Speaker 2: You and kind of being you know what now, especially
18:03
Speaker 2: after the past year, has been kind of a figurehead
18:06
Speaker 2: and a voice for the black community in your sport.
18:09
Speaker 1: Well, I mean starting out, I just didn't really have
18:13
Speaker 1: role models that looked like me and my sport. They
18:17
Speaker 1: had the polsters in the gym of the top level
18:20
Speaker 1: climbers of the time, like Chris Sharma, at Amandra and
18:22
Speaker 1: Daniel Woods, like all these people, but none of them
18:25
Speaker 1: were people of color, None of them came from inner cities,
18:28
Speaker 1: A lot of them came from the sport of climbing
18:31
Speaker 1: or like outdoor recreation. In general, all of them are white,
18:34
Speaker 1: and so like, it's just there were backgrounds that I
18:36
Speaker 1: just couldn't identify with, and there was no real blueprints
18:38
Speaker 1: for how I could get to that level. I grew
18:42
Speaker 1: up in an area that we didn't really have a
18:44
Speaker 1: developed climbing team or major climbing gyms. I mean, my
18:48
Speaker 1: gym was a renovated warehouse that had walls over seven
18:51
Speaker 1: ten feet tall and holds and climbs that didn't change
18:56
Speaker 1: for five years. So and then I would go to nationals,
19:00
Speaker 1: You'd see mega gyms with like super tall wall seventy
19:03
Speaker 1: feet tall and centers and developed teams with programs and
19:07
Speaker 1: nutritionists and all these things. And it's like, I don't
19:09
Speaker 1: know how to compete with that or how to do that.
19:11
Speaker 1: But you know, I think that I was able to
19:13
Speaker 1: find a process and able to kind of infiltrate that space.
19:18
Speaker 1: And so now that I am where I am, and
19:21
Speaker 1: like pretty much really the only representation for black people
19:25
Speaker 1: at this space, at this level, I feel like it's
19:29
Speaker 1: my responsibility to give back in that way and to
19:33
Speaker 1: open doors and to help increase that representation with my face,
19:36
Speaker 1: because I know for a fact that if there were
19:40
Speaker 1: more people who looked like me who were at the
19:42
Speaker 1: top of my sport when I was up than the
19:44
Speaker 1: kids in my neighborhood who used to tease me about
19:47
Speaker 1: doing white people's sports and doing something unconventional and weird,
19:51
Speaker 1: I mean I think they would be singing a different tune, you.
19:53
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, for sure.
19:55
Speaker 2: And now I mean after again the past year and
19:59
Speaker 2: so any brands getting into this space and asking you
20:03
Speaker 2: and coming to you asking how can we get more involved?
20:06
Speaker 3: What can we do, how can we collaborate?
20:08
Speaker 2: I know that was the match, if you will, for
20:12
Speaker 2: Climbing for Change. So talk to us a little bit
20:13
Speaker 2: about what climbing for Change is.
20:16
Speaker 1: Absolutely so Climbing for Change. Our mission as a nonprofit
20:20
Speaker 1: is trying to break down those barriers of entry for
20:23
Speaker 1: communities of color and making our support more accessible and
20:26
Speaker 1: just more inviting in general. In our space, there's I mean,
20:31
Speaker 1: only five percent of people in our space even identify
20:34
Speaker 1: as a minority, and less than one percent of that
20:36
Speaker 1: as African American which is such a contrast because in
20:38
Speaker 1: our society, like forty percent of America represents the minority.
20:42
Speaker 1: And so a lot of the reasons that there's a
20:44
Speaker 1: massive diversity gap in the outdoors and in climbing is
20:48
Speaker 1: just the barriers of entry, of cost, the stigma behind it,
20:52
Speaker 1: of how historically we've been discriminated against in these spaces
20:56
Speaker 1: and rural communities, and just access in general. So with
21:00
Speaker 1: Climate for Change, we try to bridge those gas baffering
21:03
Speaker 1: scholarships and grants and also by combining community efforts for diversity,
21:08
Speaker 1: equity and inclusion work. And so we'll go into an
21:11
Speaker 1: area and there'll be a corporate entity that wants to
21:14
Speaker 1: start a program but doesn't know how to do it.
21:16
Speaker 1: In that same area, there'll be a DEI organization that's
21:18
Speaker 1: already there, who was doing the work, who's connected with
21:21
Speaker 1: the community, and we'll partner them together. They'll combine the
21:24
Speaker 1: resources and the knowledge to really amplify the work, and
21:27
Speaker 1: that's a lot of what we do. We have a
21:28
Speaker 1: DEI Connections page so that now people are more aware
21:32
Speaker 1: of the organizations that are in their communities, and so
21:34
Speaker 1: when they go to a new area and they want
21:36
Speaker 1: to be immersed in a community that they feel comfortable with.
21:38
Speaker 1: They can just encode to our website and look it up.
21:41
Speaker 1: They can apply for our grants, they can be a
21:43
Speaker 1: part of initiatives that we offer, and so yeah, a
21:45
Speaker 1: lot of it's just community building and amplifying diversity and
21:49
Speaker 1: inclusion work.
21:51
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you would have been remiss almost if
21:54
Speaker 2: you didn't step up and do something being this face
21:57
Speaker 2: in your sport at times, does this feel a little
22:01
Speaker 2: bit overwhelming or are you just so deep in your
22:05
Speaker 2: purpose that the work doesn't even feel like work.
22:09
Speaker 1: I think that that idea of giving back has been
22:13
Speaker 1: ingrained in me since I was a kid. Like my
22:16
Speaker 1: grandmother had a drive in Cleveland that she owned where
22:21
Speaker 1: in the winter they would give out coats and food
22:23
Speaker 1: and just different necessities to homeless people and people that
22:27
Speaker 1: needed them who didn't have it. And so at three
22:30
Speaker 1: years old, I was in that shelter volunteering giving out
22:34
Speaker 1: toys to kids. At that same age, as I got
22:37
Speaker 1: older and I got an allowance, like my mom would
22:40
Speaker 1: but ask me if there was any organizations or anything
22:42
Speaker 1: I wanted to donate to. So I would donate my
22:44
Speaker 1: Christmas money or anything to just different organizations that I
22:47
Speaker 1: thought were impactful at a really young age. And my
22:50
Speaker 1: mother's always instilled in me like to whom much is given,
22:54
Speaker 1: much is required. If you're at this platform, it's your
22:57
Speaker 1: responsibility to be giving back and opening doors for other
23:00
Speaker 1: people who're in not so I guess privileged circumstances. And
23:04
Speaker 1: so for me, it's like I'm in this space. I
23:07
Speaker 1: don't want to be the only one forever. I've been
23:09
Speaker 1: the only one since I started, but I want to
23:13
Speaker 1: lead the sport and kind of see a legacy of
23:17
Speaker 1: like I open doors, Like I'm the first, but I'm
23:19
Speaker 1: not the last. There's a whole just generation of more diverse,
23:24
Speaker 1: motivated people, not only in climbing, but in the outdoors
23:27
Speaker 1: in general. And I think for me like that would
23:29
Speaker 1: be my greatest accomplishment as an athlete, regardless of what
23:33
Speaker 1: title of the metals that I win by the time
23:35
Speaker 1: I retire.
23:44
Speaker 2: Taking a break from today's episode to give some love
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Speaker 2: I also want to give some love to my friends
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24:54
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24:58
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Speaker 2: first purchase, no code necessary. You mentioned that traveling and
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Speaker 2: having in some instances perhaps a lack of access and
26:23
Speaker 2: of course, as we addressed not seeing a lot of
26:26
Speaker 2: people that looked like you or any people that looked
26:29
Speaker 2: like you, do you recall any experiences that specifically may
26:33
Speaker 2: have made you feel uncomfortable?
26:37
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I feel like microaggressions in this space were very
26:43
Speaker 1: common for me and my mother at a young age.
26:46
Speaker 1: Not so much from kids and more so from like
26:48
Speaker 1: adults and parents. When I first got in the sport,
26:51
Speaker 1: like when it comes to the kids, as long as
26:53
Speaker 1: you like climbing, and I like climbing, like it was
26:55
Speaker 1: all good, like we would climb together and it'd be fun.
26:57
Speaker 1: But a lot of times it was the parents and
26:59
Speaker 1: being a don't that have more of the tension and
27:02
Speaker 1: the microaggressions. And I really felt it when I would
27:05
Speaker 1: go to outdoor communities because a lot of people have
27:08
Speaker 1: this misconception that the outdoors this oasis that doesn't discriminate
27:13
Speaker 1: and is open to everyone. But it's like, I mean,
27:16
Speaker 1: the actual tree itself may be like that, but you
27:19
Speaker 1: have to stay somewhere, and you have to eat somewhere,
27:22
Speaker 1: you have to get gas somewhere and get groceries, and
27:25
Speaker 1: so a lot of those communities in rural America are
27:29
Speaker 1: just have really regressive perspectives on race. And I'll never
27:33
Speaker 1: forget being twelve years old and driving to an outdoor
27:35
Speaker 1: area and I went to go to the gas station
27:38
Speaker 1: and use the bathroom, and on my way out, the
27:40
Speaker 1: man stopped me illegally searched me, lift up my shirt
27:44
Speaker 1: and grabbed me and basically told me that I look
27:46
Speaker 1: like I steal and when he realized that I didn't
27:50
Speaker 1: have anything in my pockets, he was like, you can go.
27:53
Speaker 1: But by then I've been violated, I have been demeaned.
27:57
Speaker 1: And I was twelve years old and I was one
27:59
Speaker 1: of them, my first experiences in the outdoors at least
28:02
Speaker 1: where I felt like, Wow, I really don't belong here.
28:05
Speaker 1: And I mean that's not an isolated incident, but it
28:09
Speaker 1: was the one I remember vividly the most I've been
28:11
Speaker 1: called the inWORD and grocery stores by people in other aisles.
28:15
Speaker 1: I mean, it's definitely been a struggle over the years
28:18
Speaker 1: to just feel comfortable and safe in these spaces and
28:21
Speaker 1: find them. But I think that the more the sport grows,
28:25
Speaker 1: the more normalized that it's becoming. And so I think
28:27
Speaker 1: that that's why representation is so important, because I mean,
28:30
Speaker 1: with the platform that I have on social media with
28:32
Speaker 1: my nonprofit, the more people that were pushing to these
28:34
Speaker 1: spaces like they can't ignore us all and they provide
28:38
Speaker 1: an example for other people to be like, oh, like
28:41
Speaker 1: they can do it, I can too.
28:43
Speaker 3: Yeah.
28:43
Speaker 1: And the more people a lot of it's education, The
28:45
Speaker 1: more people you see in the space, the more normalized
28:47
Speaker 1: it becomes, the more accessible they've become.
28:49
Speaker 2: I know that your goal here beyond normalizing people of
28:53
Speaker 2: color in the sport. You also the last year came
28:57
Speaker 2: out and spoke about your journey with disordered eating, which
29:01
Speaker 2: is a super difficult topic and one that I know
29:05
Speaker 2: men specifically really don't talk a lot about when it
29:08
Speaker 2: comes to athletics. So talk me through a little bit
29:11
Speaker 2: about that and what that journey looked like for you.
29:15
Speaker 1: So when you look at climbing, climbing is a strength
29:18
Speaker 1: to weight ratio heavy sport. We're hanging off our fingertips
29:22
Speaker 1: off of the side of mountains on ninety degree angles,
29:26
Speaker 1: and so we're doing that. It matters to be light
29:29
Speaker 1: and strong, and so a lot of times athletes will
29:32
Speaker 1: test that balance from both perspectives, trying to be a
29:35
Speaker 1: stronger athlete but also trying to be as light as possible,
29:37
Speaker 1: and oftentimes losing weight can be the easier way out
29:41
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. And so growing up I
29:45
Speaker 1: definitely just had I mean, I was always taller than
29:48
Speaker 1: the other athletes, which comes with its own weight, but
29:51
Speaker 1: also I had a stock to your build just from
29:53
Speaker 1: my family, and so I was always a lot bigger.
29:56
Speaker 1: And that concept was always pointed out to me as
30:00
Speaker 1: I was growing up and getting better in the sport
30:03
Speaker 1: by coaches and teammates and other people, and so I
30:07
Speaker 1: kind of internalized that and thought that as I got
30:10
Speaker 1: better and as my goals got bigger, like the only
30:12
Speaker 1: way I can achieve them is if I get smaller
30:15
Speaker 1: and I look like them, which is obviously a slippery slope.
30:19
Speaker 1: And so I just developed a really unhealthy relationship with
30:22
Speaker 1: food and it kind of got out of hand to
30:25
Speaker 1: the point where I almost had liver failure from just
30:28
Speaker 1: restricting myself from eating too much. Luckily, I came out
30:32
Speaker 1: on the other side of it, and I have a
30:34
Speaker 1: bit of a lot healthy relationship with food now. But yeah,
30:38
Speaker 1: it was definitely a struggle, but just not an uncommon one.
30:40
Speaker 1: I started competing in adult competitions when I was thirteen
30:43
Speaker 1: years old, and at that age it was just so
30:46
Speaker 1: normalized for my idols and the people around us to
30:49
Speaker 1: comment on each other's weight, to comment on what each
30:52
Speaker 1: other were eating, and you know how you could lose
30:54
Speaker 1: more weight or just be smaller to get better at climbing.
30:57
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was just like kind of ingrained in
30:59
Speaker 1: the culture.
31:01
Speaker 2: In your journey to recovery. Was there any one moment
31:06
Speaker 2: that you were like, I can't do this anymore? Was
31:09
Speaker 2: it finding out that you were about to have liver failure?
31:11
Speaker 3: What was it?
31:13
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't necessarily that period for me. I
31:16
Speaker 1: think it was more so after where you know, my
31:20
Speaker 1: body was changing, I was going through puberty. It was
31:23
Speaker 1: impossible for me to keep my numbers down because obviously
31:27
Speaker 1: if I'm growing and I'm getting muscle, like, I'm going
31:29
Speaker 1: to be heavier. But for me, I interpreted that as
31:33
Speaker 1: I'm not fulfilling my end of the bargain, I'm not
31:36
Speaker 1: doing my job, and so like it made me feel
31:39
Speaker 1: like a failure and that I couldn't do what I
31:40
Speaker 1: was supposed to do or achieve what I wanted to
31:42
Speaker 1: because I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do.
31:44
Speaker 1: From the weight perspective, and obviously, because I'm so much
31:47
Speaker 1: bigger than other athletes, I'm going to weigh more than
31:49
Speaker 1: other athletes. I wasn't even an average and so it
31:52
Speaker 1: just hurt mind, not only just self esteem but also
31:55
Speaker 1: motivation for the sport. And it definitely, like yet like
31:58
Speaker 1: negatively impacted me. Like, but I think what really helped
32:02
Speaker 1: me was not only having my mother there at support,
32:05
Speaker 1: but I ended up actually taking a break from climbing
32:08
Speaker 1: to go to school and being like maybe outside of
32:12
Speaker 1: that ultra competitive mindset for a little bit helped me
32:16
Speaker 1: kind of put things into perspective because for me, the
32:19
Speaker 1: disordered eating wasn't necessarily a self image thing. It was
32:23
Speaker 1: more of a performance thing for me personally. I always
32:25
Speaker 1: felt like I was able to rationalize it as like
32:28
Speaker 1: it's because of my sport, like just just the way
32:30
Speaker 1: things are, like if I want to be good, this
32:32
Speaker 1: is what it has to be. But when I got
32:34
Speaker 1: to school and I was like, oh, I don't have
32:35
Speaker 1: to do this anymore, and I developed to help their
32:37
Speaker 1: relationship with food and hindsight, I was able to recognize
32:40
Speaker 1: that's super unhealthy, Like I can't believe I used to
32:42
Speaker 1: do that to my body and so having that perspective
32:45
Speaker 1: going back into it and training for the next Olympic cycle,
32:48
Speaker 1: I definitely feel like I have a healthier perspective on
32:50
Speaker 1: food and health and all of that, and I think
32:53
Speaker 1: it's definitely improved my performance, my climbing ability, and just
32:56
Speaker 1: the consistency of my training.
32:58
Speaker 2: Well, I was going to say, now that you're fueling
33:00
Speaker 2: your body better and being more mindful about what you're
33:03
Speaker 2: putting into it, and giving yourself the calories you need
33:06
Speaker 2: and the electrolytes you need, and refilling your glycogen stores
33:09
Speaker 2: after you're working out for three hours at a time,
33:11
Speaker 2: like you must feel a dramatic difference versus when you
33:15
Speaker 2: just were completely depleted.
33:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think a lot of what helped then.
33:19
Speaker 1: Also I was a kid, so there's a certain level
33:22
Speaker 1: of energy that I was just going to have in general.
33:24
Speaker 1: But yeah, I feel so much better as an athlete,
33:27
Speaker 1: so much healthier. But it's more than just physical, it's
33:30
Speaker 1: mental too. It's just like I have more energy, I
33:34
Speaker 1: have more motivation, Like climbing and training feels a lot
33:37
Speaker 1: more fun because you know, I like food. I'm a
33:40
Speaker 1: food so restricting my body of nutrients was not fun.
33:44
Speaker 1: It taint in my image of the sport in general,
33:46
Speaker 1: but developing healthier habits it just made me love the
33:50
Speaker 1: sport even more, which helps me stay motivated to train
33:53
Speaker 1: to be the best athlete I can be.
33:55
Speaker 2: I love what you wrote in the blog saying I
33:58
Speaker 2: think it's important to provide a space where kids are
34:00
Speaker 2: able to push themselves to find their own paths instead
34:03
Speaker 2: of conforming to a vision that doesn't fit them. Allow
34:06
Speaker 2: your kids to follow your dreams, but make sure they
34:08
Speaker 2: are doing it in a way that builds them up.
34:11
Speaker 2: These days, what are you doing to build yourself up?
34:18
Speaker 1: I think that for me it was finding balance. I
34:22
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of prodigy athletes go through this
34:25
Speaker 1: where when your entire life, not only has this been
34:29
Speaker 1: my life, but everyone expects me to perform at a
34:33
Speaker 1: certain level and to be in the sport in a
34:35
Speaker 1: certain amount. So climbing felt like my entire world. It
34:39
Speaker 1: was all that I wanted to do at one point,
34:42
Speaker 1: but then at some point it became like the only
34:43
Speaker 1: thing that I could do. But now I feel like
34:46
Speaker 1: balancing with hanging out with friends and doing other activities
34:50
Speaker 1: and just being more immersed in life and appreciating these years,
34:54
Speaker 1: you know, like having other hobbies like reading or hiking
34:58
Speaker 1: or you know, going to hot spring, just doing fun
35:01
Speaker 1: things in the area. I think like that has really
35:04
Speaker 1: helped me like feel more grounded and more in context
35:08
Speaker 1: with the world around me, and just like is enjoying
35:11
Speaker 1: the process a lot more so. I think that that's
35:14
Speaker 1: the thing that I feel like is uplifting me the most,
35:17
Speaker 1: like physically and mentally. It's just like just enjoying life
35:21
Speaker 1: more in a lot more other ways than just climbing,
35:24
Speaker 1: like having more dimensions, more layers to myself as a person.
35:28
Speaker 2: You mentioned that prodigy, which is such like a true
35:31
Speaker 2: word when it comes to you and your climbing journey.
35:34
Speaker 2: I would imagine in becoming so well known so young,
35:39
Speaker 2: and that in combination with the craziness that goes with
35:43
Speaker 2: your sport and climbing these insane roots and going up
35:46
Speaker 2: so high, I mean, the mental work that goes hand
35:49
Speaker 2: in hand with the physical work must be so great.
35:53
Speaker 3: So talk to me a little bit about that.
35:56
Speaker 2: I'm sure by now you've worked with a handful of
35:58
Speaker 2: different sports psychology.
36:02
Speaker 1: Well, I've had a couple of therapists at this point,
36:05
Speaker 1: but I think that, especially in my sport, the mental
36:08
Speaker 1: side of things is so important because it's more than
36:11
Speaker 1: just being able to handle pressure. But when you go
36:14
Speaker 1: into a competition, there is no stable element of any
36:19
Speaker 1: of it. In other sports like track and field, like
36:22
Speaker 1: the distance is the same, the track is going to
36:23
Speaker 1: be the same, the technology is the same. But in climbing,
36:26
Speaker 1: every competition that you enter, the arena is different. The
36:30
Speaker 1: location is different, which means the environment and temperature and
36:33
Speaker 1: all that comes into play. The holds are different, the
36:36
Speaker 1: angles are different. Every time you step into the wall,
36:38
Speaker 1: like you get a different problem, a different climb, and
36:41
Speaker 1: so you never know what skill set you're going to
36:44
Speaker 1: need to achieve it. And also a big product climbing
36:46
Speaker 1: is problem solving because you put a series of holes
36:50
Speaker 1: in the wall and it's not who's the strongest, it's
36:53
Speaker 1: who can figure out the most efficient sequence that works
36:55
Speaker 1: with them in this limited time period, which is usually
36:57
Speaker 1: like four minutes on a Bolder or Minnesota League climb.
37:01
Speaker 1: And so because of how cerebral that process is, it's
37:04
Speaker 1: like you have to be on physically and mentally for
37:08
Speaker 1: the entire competition, constantly figuring out like new sequences, new
37:12
Speaker 1: ways to solve climbs and trying to get that done
37:14
Speaker 1: that period of time, and also having to handle the
37:16
Speaker 1: pressure of the situation like being in a World Championship
37:20
Speaker 1: final or something, And so a lot of that comes
37:22
Speaker 1: down to just like repetitively putting yourself in those positions,
37:26
Speaker 1: like we'll have mock competitions and US team trainings constantly.
37:31
Speaker 1: I read a lot of books about other successful athletes
37:34
Speaker 1: processes what they go through mentally. My mom has always
37:37
Speaker 1: been really important about that, like having that routine where
37:41
Speaker 1: we calm everything down, then we recap the training or
37:44
Speaker 1: recap the competition and making sure that I'm like keeping
37:48
Speaker 1: a positive mindset and regrouping. And so I think that, yeah,
37:51
Speaker 1: routine and just repetitively putting myself in those pressure mindsets
37:55
Speaker 1: is what helps me stay stable and consistent.
37:58
Speaker 2: Do you have any mantras or things that you say
38:00
Speaker 2: to yourself to help you come back to calm.
38:05
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's more so just breathe.
38:07
Speaker 1: And also reminded myself that once I go out in
38:09
Speaker 1: the competition wall, it's out of my hands. Really. Once
38:12
Speaker 1: I show up, I'm like I've done everything I can do.
38:14
Speaker 1: I've done the training, I've done all of the preparation
38:18
Speaker 1: that I could, So in this moment, all I can
38:21
Speaker 1: do is go out there and do my best and
38:22
Speaker 1: figure it out. It works out, it's great. If it doesn't,
38:25
Speaker 1: then it wasn't meant to be. But at that point
38:26
Speaker 1: I have to like allow it to leave my hands
38:28
Speaker 1: and like trust in God that everything will work out.
38:31
Speaker 2: I feel like you probably didn't always have that perspective,
38:35
Speaker 2: right like I did the best that I could.
38:37
Speaker 3: When things go wrong.
38:39
Speaker 2: Do you remember perhaps a certain instance where you came
38:43
Speaker 2: to understand that you really had to adopt that mindset
38:46
Speaker 2: and that you were going to have to get okay
38:49
Speaker 2: with sometimes falling, sometimes not being the absolute best.
38:54
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think probably my first Youth World Championships. I
38:59
Speaker 1: went in and the mindset of the team at the
39:02
Speaker 1: time was that the European athletes were someone better than us,
39:06
Speaker 1: that it wasn't really possible for us to do well
39:08
Speaker 1: at that level, and so going in I was like
39:11
Speaker 1: nervous and scared. But then after qualifiers was finished, I
39:15
Speaker 1: was in first place, and then after semi finals finish,
39:18
Speaker 1: I was the only person that top the route and
39:20
Speaker 1: I was in first place going into finals by a lot,
39:23
Speaker 1: and so going into finals, I was like, I could
39:25
Speaker 1: win this competition and I had no expectation to do so,
39:28
Speaker 1: and going in, I was like super nervous and didn't
39:32
Speaker 1: necessarily have the best preparation. So I went up and
39:35
Speaker 1: I went to climb, and I was going for a
39:38
Speaker 1: move and my foot slipped and I fell, and I
39:40
Speaker 1: got a score of forty forty one holds. Little did
39:44
Speaker 1: I know, and I wasn't tired when I fell, But
39:47
Speaker 1: little did I know that if I had gotten positive movement,
39:49
Speaker 1: which is a plus and our scoring system, that would
39:52
Speaker 1: have been silver. And then if I had grabbed the
39:54
Speaker 1: next hold, I would have won the entire competition. And
39:58
Speaker 1: so I was absolutely devastated, like couldn't keep it together.
40:02
Speaker 1: I was like I was one holdaway from the world champion.
40:05
Speaker 1: I just let it go and I had everything it
40:07
Speaker 1: took to be there, and so like it took me
40:09
Speaker 1: a minute to realize, you know, like it just means
40:11
Speaker 1: that there's something else that I needed to work on. Physically,
40:15
Speaker 1: I was prepared, but mentally I was not. And I
40:18
Speaker 1: hadn't prepared myself for that level of expectation and level
40:21
Speaker 1: of pressure. So we had to go into the gym
40:22
Speaker 1: and try a new style of mental preparation, and a
40:26
Speaker 1: year later at the next competition it was actually the
40:29
Speaker 1: opposite story. I had grown a few inches leading up
40:33
Speaker 1: into the championships. I wasn't physically in shape as much
40:36
Speaker 1: as I happened the year before, and I scraped into
40:38
Speaker 1: the final, but mentally I was able to keep it together.
40:41
Speaker 1: I ended up winning my first world title, and so
40:43
Speaker 1: for me, it was just like understanding that going in competition,
40:47
Speaker 1: like competitions are unpredictable. Anything can happen, and sometimes you
40:51
Speaker 1: have to adapt in training in more than one method.
40:53
Speaker 1: But I mean, it's not up to you. Sometimes it's
40:55
Speaker 1: just not meant to be.
40:57
Speaker 2: How have you come to learn to separate your worth
41:01
Speaker 2: as Kai the climber versus Kai the individual, because I
41:04
Speaker 2: would imagine with those falls and those scrapes, sometimes it
41:08
Speaker 2: can be really difficult forget, like if you're injured and
41:11
Speaker 2: you can't climb, like, there's still worth to you as
41:15
Speaker 2: we know. So how have you come to adopt that
41:18
Speaker 2: and understand that.
41:20
Speaker 1: I think that's come with balance and with age as well.
41:24
Speaker 1: I try to make sure that I have a climbing
41:27
Speaker 1: life like I have my friends. In climbing, I have
41:29
Speaker 1: my routine and my training, but then once that's out
41:31
Speaker 1: the door and I leave the gym and I go
41:34
Speaker 1: and hang out with my friends. Like I'm not Kai
41:36
Speaker 1: the climber or I'm not the world champion athlete. I'm
41:40
Speaker 1: just KaiA. I'm just chilling watching a Netflix show or
41:44
Speaker 1: playing a game or going out to an event. I'm
41:48
Speaker 1: just normal. And that way it helps me stay grounded
41:52
Speaker 1: because it's like I get to do normal things and
41:54
Speaker 1: I'm so glad. Actually it's funny because this one's becoming
41:57
Speaker 1: more popular, but because when I was like basketball or football,
42:01
Speaker 1: like as soon as leads the jim unrecognizable, no way
42:03
Speaker 1: knows who I am, which is really peaceful. So I
42:08
Speaker 1: get to like immerse myself in normal life and also
42:11
Speaker 1: have other hobbies and passions efforts like climbing for change
42:15
Speaker 1: and my nonprofit work, and also you know, just going
42:19
Speaker 1: to basketball games, like reading books, getting a degree in
42:22
Speaker 1: college and having that path and opportunities like not putting
42:26
Speaker 1: all my eggs in one basket, and also like diversifying
42:29
Speaker 1: myself as much as possible, just so that you know,
42:31
Speaker 1: if something doesn't work out in climbing if you know
42:34
Speaker 1: tomorrow I have I get injured and can't do the
42:37
Speaker 1: next Olympics. I mean, I still have other things that
42:39
Speaker 1: fall back when I'm not a one dimensional person.
42:41
Speaker 2: I love this idea of like I leave the climbing
42:44
Speaker 2: gym and nobody knows who I am. Meanwhile, you just
42:47
Speaker 2: did something pretty dope, which is that you teamed up
42:50
Speaker 2: with Jimmy Chen. He's the Oscar winning director from Resolo.
42:55
Speaker 2: The two of you worked on a two minute film
42:57
Speaker 2: for Got Milk called The Wall. I mean, was that
43:01
Speaker 2: like the most surreal experience or what?
43:04
Speaker 1: Yeah? It was pretty cool because I mean, I like
43:09
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier, I love climbing things. I always
43:12
Speaker 1: used to climb sides of buildings and you know, things
43:15
Speaker 1: I wasn't supposed to. But those are the things that
43:17
Speaker 1: got me in trouble as a kid. My mom hated it,
43:20
Speaker 1: the kids at school thought I was weird. And so
43:23
Speaker 1: to be able to bring back this thing that used
43:26
Speaker 1: to get me in trouble and people will say would
43:29
Speaker 1: make me end up somewhere I'm not supposed to, and
43:31
Speaker 1: allow that activity to be the thing that helps push
43:34
Speaker 1: this sport into the mainstream in a different way. Like
43:37
Speaker 1: open the doors an opportunity. It just feels like a
43:39
Speaker 1: huge full circle moment and it was so special. I'm like, wow,
43:44
Speaker 1: I get to climb the side of a building and
43:46
Speaker 1: instead of getting in trouble for it, I'm actually giving
43:49
Speaker 1: exposure to my sports and help you know, little black
43:53
Speaker 1: kids and kids of color see someone who looks like
43:56
Speaker 1: them doing activity. That's the way out of the norm.
43:59
Speaker 1: Like that's that's the door. R there, that's open as
44:00
Speaker 1: an opportunity like that just it felt like really really
44:03
Speaker 1: special for me.
44:04
Speaker 2: And so you guys set up set up on top
44:07
Speaker 2: of a thirty story building in downtown Kansas City.
44:09
Speaker 3: I mean, what kind of view was that.
44:12
Speaker 1: It was a beautiful view actually because it was like
44:15
Speaker 1: the like the second tallest building in the downtown area,
44:18
Speaker 1: so I could see the entire city. It was awesome.
44:22
Speaker 1: Everyone was like are you scared, and I'm like, no,
44:24
Speaker 1: this is what I do for a living.
44:27
Speaker 3: I am definitely not like a real life spider Man.
44:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like this is a chill for me. I
44:34
Speaker 1: mean I climbed the side of real mountains for a
44:36
Speaker 1: living and so like this is nothing. But it was
44:39
Speaker 1: still thrilling, you know, like I got that same thrill
44:41
Speaker 1: that I get on rocks when I do cool moves
44:43
Speaker 1: that I do, and that I did on that wall,
44:45
Speaker 1: because I mean, in the film this is jump in
44:48
Speaker 1: the middle of the climb where like I have to
44:50
Speaker 1: jump from a the hole and like all points off
44:52
Speaker 1: Dino to this to this lope behold, And when I
44:55
Speaker 1: was doing it, I just felt like I was flying,
44:57
Speaker 1: like I was in mid air and that like it
44:59
Speaker 1: was just me and the wall. And that's like kind
45:02
Speaker 1: of those moments that I live for.
45:03
Speaker 2: And climbing, the ones where you feel like you're flying
45:06
Speaker 2: and like with zero inhibitions do you have And I
45:10
Speaker 2: can't even imagine that there's one answer to this question,
45:13
Speaker 2: but like a favorite climb that you've ever done, or
45:17
Speaker 2: perhaps like just this one impeccable view that you will
45:20
Speaker 2: just always always go back to.
45:23
Speaker 1: M You know, there's this photo that I use really
45:26
Speaker 1: often because I love it so much, but it's also
45:29
Speaker 1: because the view is amazing. But this is area, this
45:32
Speaker 1: is climbing area called the New River Gorge and it's
45:35
Speaker 1: in West Virginia. Slade. No, No, it's slave Kentucky. No, actually, no,
45:41
Speaker 1: I'm that's a terrible It's actually they have the West Virginia.
45:44
Speaker 1: It's funny because I'm from f theyav in North Carolina, so I
45:46
Speaker 1: should remember that. But it's in they have the West Virginia.
45:49
Speaker 1: It's an area called the New River Gorge and this
45:51
Speaker 1: is a crack called the Cirque and you go there
45:54
Speaker 1: and you climb to the top of the wall and
45:55
Speaker 1: you look out and you can see like the running
45:57
Speaker 1: river and the forest and the trees and like, that's
46:00
Speaker 1: a really beautiful area. For me. It was one of
46:02
Speaker 1: my first areas that I ever went to as a kid,
46:04
Speaker 1: So it was my first exposure to after climbing, which
46:06
Speaker 1: is why I appreciated it so much. But I definitely
46:09
Speaker 1: think that that area is always really beautiful for me.
46:11
Speaker 1: But I've had the opportunity to travel the world and
46:15
Speaker 1: see a lot of different places, and so that's a
46:17
Speaker 1: hard question, but I definitely have to stick with the
46:20
Speaker 1: West Virginia. One.
46:21
Speaker 2: Is it crazy for you to be able to travel
46:24
Speaker 2: the world and having heard how special the relationship is
46:27
Speaker 2: between you.
46:28
Speaker 3: And your mom, like be able to bring your mom
46:30
Speaker 3: along with you.
46:31
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely. I think it's funny because my mother was
46:34
Speaker 1: actually scared of heights. She didn't like climbing at all
46:38
Speaker 1: when I started out, And so the fact that she
46:40
Speaker 1: was so willing to come with me, to learn, to
46:43
Speaker 1: belay with me, to help with all that was just
46:46
Speaker 1: super special. And I think she's learned to appreciate it
46:51
Speaker 1: sort of. She still doesn't climb, She doesn't like climbing.
46:54
Speaker 1: I get to pressure her into climbing like once every
46:57
Speaker 1: seven years, but like, I mean, she still doesn't really
47:01
Speaker 1: enjoy the actual activity itself, but she definitely learned to. Like,
47:04
Speaker 1: I mean, I think what it is that she as
47:07
Speaker 1: an ADHD kid, she didn't really trust a ton of
47:09
Speaker 1: people with like managing me because she knew it was
47:11
Speaker 1: a handful, so she felt obligated at first. And I
47:14
Speaker 1: think now she kind of just likes hanging out with
47:16
Speaker 1: me if you want a minute. But I think she
47:18
Speaker 1: likes hanging out with me.
47:20
Speaker 3: I'm sure she'll admit it.
47:23
Speaker 2: So for you now, I mean, someone goes to your
47:26
Speaker 2: Instagram page, they see someone with ninety thousand followers, a
47:31
Speaker 2: climber making his name known in this sport. When you
47:36
Speaker 2: look in the mirror, what is it that you see
47:39
Speaker 2: looking back at you?
47:42
Speaker 1: Wow? When Momma refilection shows that, I think of that roomlights.
47:50
Speaker 3: As a pro singer.
47:55
Speaker 1: I think, what do I see when I look back
47:57
Speaker 1: in the mirror, You know, I feel like I just
48:00
Speaker 1: see like a twenty one year old college kid who
48:02
Speaker 1: likes to climb rocks, And I just every day I
48:07
Speaker 1: wake up, I just feel so blessed that I have
48:11
Speaker 1: the platform and the opportunity to really create the change
48:15
Speaker 1: that I want to see in the world, whether it's
48:18
Speaker 1: in my immediate community or abroad. The more exposure that
48:21
Speaker 1: I get, the more opportunities that I get, Like, it's
48:23
Speaker 1: not just a win for me, and it's a win
48:25
Speaker 1: for my community. And so I think that that's what
48:29
Speaker 1: it makes me to get up in the morning and
48:30
Speaker 1: look in the mirror and just say, like, you know,
48:33
Speaker 1: like wow, like I can't believe for here, it's just
48:36
Speaker 1: it's amazing.
48:37
Speaker 2: You mentioned that your coach now is the same man
48:40
Speaker 2: that you saw at the front desk when you went
48:42
Speaker 2: climbing for the first time. Talk to me about one
48:46
Speaker 2: of the best pieces of advice that he has offered
48:49
Speaker 2: you along this journey.
48:53
Speaker 1: Huh. I think the best I didn't even think about it.
48:56
Speaker 1: I think the best one is I used to be
48:59
Speaker 1: a nervous wreck in isolation. I'd be in ISO, like
49:02
Speaker 1: at finals of national championships, and I just be like,
49:06
Speaker 1: what if I don't win? Like what if I don't
49:08
Speaker 1: do well? Like what if I just like slip at
49:10
Speaker 1: the start, like what happens then? And he's looking at
49:13
Speaker 1: me and he's like, I do literally don't care, Like
49:17
Speaker 1: I just want you to go out there and have
49:19
Speaker 1: a good time and have fun, and as long as
49:21
Speaker 1: you do your best, I will always be proud of you.
49:24
Speaker 1: And those words always used to like grown me and
49:28
Speaker 1: make me feel more comfortable and sound knowing that I
49:31
Speaker 1: had his support and the support of my family out there.
49:34
Speaker 1: So I think the lesson I learned from that is
49:37
Speaker 1: like in anything that you do, no matter how successful
49:39
Speaker 1: you are, no matter how far you get to bring
49:42
Speaker 1: it or go with it, just remembering why you're there,
49:45
Speaker 1: enjoying the process and truly loving what you do is
49:48
Speaker 1: just so.
49:49
Speaker 3: Important, so important. Final couple of questions here.
49:53
Speaker 2: I know we talked about your journey when it came
49:57
Speaker 2: to disordered eating. I'm sure there are individuals w listening
50:00
Speaker 2: to this right now who have had similar struggles. For
50:04
Speaker 2: those individuals, what kind of advice would you offer them
50:08
Speaker 2: to getting through that particular hurdle.
50:11
Speaker 1: I think the best advice I have is just not
50:13
Speaker 1: being afraid to ask for help or to be vulnerable.
50:16
Speaker 1: I can guarantee you that no matter how embarrassing or
50:19
Speaker 1: private you think that the matter is, there are other
50:21
Speaker 1: people out there that can relate to your story and
50:24
Speaker 1: that can get you the help that you need, even
50:26
Speaker 1: when you don't know how to help yourself. I feel
50:29
Speaker 1: so blessed that I had a mother that was someone
50:32
Speaker 1: tuned with me and attentive and understood when I needed help,
50:37
Speaker 1: because honestly, it saved my life. And I just can
50:41
Speaker 1: only pray that other people can get a similar help
50:45
Speaker 1: and to help them through that process. I don't know
50:46
Speaker 1: where I be without her help and the help of
50:48
Speaker 1: people around me who are able to just keep me
50:52
Speaker 1: mentally grounded and help me with my disordered eating.
50:56
Speaker 2: What are you excited about? What are you looking forward to?
50:59
Speaker 2: Writ now?
51:00
Speaker 1: Now? Right now, I'm looking forward to getting back into
51:04
Speaker 1: training for the next Olympic cycles. So I've already started training,
51:08
Speaker 1: I've already entered my first national competitions in my just
51:11
Speaker 1: different team selection camps and processes, and so that process
51:16
Speaker 1: it feels like home for me because I've been doing
51:18
Speaker 1: it for so long, but it's nice to be back
51:20
Speaker 1: in a swing of things. I'm also excited about investing
51:24
Speaker 1: more in my nonprofit, Climbing for Change. We just opened
51:28
Speaker 1: up a new grant program just to get more diversity
51:31
Speaker 1: in the root setting process, which is the people who
51:34
Speaker 1: put the climbs on the wall at different competitions. We're
51:38
Speaker 1: hoping to revamp some new programs and old programs that
51:40
Speaker 1: are going on, including our one in Atlanta where we
51:43
Speaker 1: built a climbing wall and a recreation center and partner
51:47
Speaker 1: with city government and the local climbing gym to provide
51:50
Speaker 1: free transportation and climbing programs at the gym in Atlanta.
51:53
Speaker 1: And just yeah, like just providing more opportunities for communities
51:57
Speaker 1: of color and just underserved communities who have never had
52:00
Speaker 1: since the support before or knew it was possible for them.
52:03
Speaker 2: Right now, you have an opportunity to offer the kai
52:08
Speaker 2: who is not giving his body what it needs, struggling
52:13
Speaker 2: and maybe doing some serious damage to his liver a
52:18
Speaker 2: piece of advice. Looking back on that hurdle moment right now,
52:22
Speaker 2: what do you tell him.
52:25
Speaker 1: That you know climbing is at the end of the world,
52:29
Speaker 1: and that the most important thing about doing what you're
52:33
Speaker 1: doing is enjoying the process, enjoying every single step of it.
52:38
Speaker 1: Make yourself miserable in the gym for months just for
52:42
Speaker 1: a single gratifying moment that happens over weekend. It's just
52:45
Speaker 1: not sustainable. So just calm yourself down and find healthier
52:50
Speaker 1: ways to live life. Just enjoy yourself.
52:54
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time today. I'm so
52:56
Speaker 2: grateful for you, and I seriously join you in this
52:59
Speaker 2: mission of hoping that what we're doing and the good
53:02
Speaker 2: that we're doing can empower rather people to feel a
53:04
Speaker 2: little bit less alone on their journeys.
53:07
Speaker 3: Talk to me about how the hurdlers can keep up
53:09
Speaker 3: with you.
53:10
Speaker 2: How can they follow along with you as you prep
53:12
Speaker 2: for twenty twenty four Give us the info.
53:14
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you can't follow me on social media at kai
53:18
Speaker 1: Lightner my name pretty much on any platform, well more
53:21
Speaker 1: so Instagram and Facebook. You can also follow Climb for Change,
53:25
Speaker 1: my nonprofit work at Climbing the Number four Change, both
53:29
Speaker 1: on Instagram and on Facebook. And you can go to
53:32
Speaker 1: my website Kaidashlitner dot com to follow my story in
53:36
Speaker 1: my blog posts.
53:37
Speaker 3: I love it.
53:38
Speaker 2: I'm over at Hurdle Podcast and at Emily Abody, another
53:42
Speaker 2: hurdle conquered.
53:44
Speaker 3: Catch you guys next time.