Latest / Crafted Connections / EP 56: Fidelity to Your Craft with Jerald Harkness

Transcript

EP 56: Fidelity to Your Craft with Jerald Harkness · Crafted Connections

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, welcome to Crafted Connections.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Kayla Calhoun, and this is a podcast all about storytelling and building genuine community.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Here we'll dive into the art of storytelling, unpack strategies for making meaningful connections, and hear from incredible humans who are using their story to create impact.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: So grab your favorite beverage, settle in, and let's craft some connections.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, welcome back to Crafted Connections.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited for you to hear this one.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think this interview happened back in January, and here we are, finally in April, sharing the wonderful Gerald Harkness with you.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: I promise you, you're gonna listen to the first 10 minutes and you're gonna be like, did Caitlin just bring this man on to compliment her for 10 minutes?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: And no, I did not.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: I can't stop him, honestly.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I I met him back in 2022.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: I consider him a dear friend.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, he he considered us colleagues, but I he is a mentor through and through for me.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: So whenever I've got something in the biz, or honestly, sometimes in my personal life, I'm like, Gerald, what's what's the game plan here?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: What do I need to do?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: And he has amazing advice and has such amazing experience.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to share Gerald with you today.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you can kind of hear his whole background of what it's like to be a full-time filmmaker, to make a career out of it, right?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: He'll he'll share in this uh, he started in 1992.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: And for those keeping score at home, that's over 30 years now.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: So he's been through it all.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: He's been through the ups and the downs and the all arounds of the industry, and it's a super cool conversation.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: So please enjoy Gerald.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, he's way too nice to me, and I'm grateful for it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: If there's anything really, really essential to take away from this episode, is Gerald reminds us that there are statistics, right?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: There are statistics out there.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Know them, know them, know what the odds are, and come up with a game plan and screw them.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't say it that way, but but look at the statistics and approach it strategically in a way that you can be an outlier.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: And he breaks that down in his experience and this, that, and the other during this episode.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: So please, please enjoy.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: If you enjoy, send it to a friend, subscribe, do the things.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know the things.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: You've listened to a podcast before, and I'm super, super grateful for your support.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, are you ready?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I am I am so ready for this conversation.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: For this conversation that we're gonna craft together.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that we're gonna craft.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: I know we we can't stop with the with the crafting, yeah, and the conversations and the the connection that results, if you will.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: But first, can you do me a favor and and tell the people a little bit about yourself?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: I certainly will, Caitlin.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And let me just say how excited I am to be on this podcast.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I wish I could listen to it more regularly and I will start doing that.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: But it's your conversations and you yourself are always good for the soul.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got I've got to level up here.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is a big deal.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I'm gonna go back to our first our origin story.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Seriously, that's what I was thinking of.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know how I introduced myself to you, but I was in a space to where I was I had been producing documentaries since 1992.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't remember when you and I met.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was actually 2022, 30 years later.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thirty, 30 years later.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for reminding me of my age.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm always here for you.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm always here for you.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew that I was at uh a crossroads with my career, and that you know, I had done a ton of producing and directing, independent documentaries here locally, starting out, and then branched into to more high-level sophisticated network stuff with ESPN and VH1, with Amy Biography, with our friend Luke Renner, and then more recent years, you know, CBS Sports and PBS and Paramount TV, and you know, and so we were having a good go at it, but I was really looking to expand, you know, just the the people I wanted to collaborate with.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, most people, Caitlin, I think in our field are talented or pretty talented, or at least they tell themselves they're talented.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you kind of go with a gut instinct these days, at least I do.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so whatever creative magic connection happened at the coffee shop when we first met, it it still feels that way today.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: That that that sounds sappy, but it's that's the truth.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so having these type of conversations, again, it's just so important because it is a tough business.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's going through huge disruption right now.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's documentaries, which is what you and I do, have never faced this amount of disruption ever in the history of documentaries.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, but that's the fun of it, and that's the the challenge of it, and that's the action I enjoy.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, so yeah, in short, I've been producing and directing documentaries since 1992 in a variety of different ways, some local, some independent, some national, some all over the place.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, but uh, but I'm grateful, Caitlin.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm in the the vast minority of people who get to do this for a living and keep the lights on and all that good stuff.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, so been doing this for a while.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm glad you started with our first conversation because that just I think mirrors exactly what I was saying right at the top of the conversation, which was you know, making such wonderful connections and having great conversations with like really just cool people, which is like literally all I want to do all the time.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um and documentaries allow you to do that, right?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then and then kind of find all the threads between all the people and then and tell the story of a community or an individual's life or or what have you, or topic, right?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: A non-sentient being.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, it can't be stopped.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you have to do that?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yes, yes, go ahead.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: To go back to our conversation, like while all of our conversations are so wonderful, and I always look forward to spending time with you.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: That first conversation, I look back and I just think like this man hit me up on LinkedIn and literally just like complimented me for an hour.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, that's what you want, right?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like it genuinely was.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like you just and and in a in a time when I was, I mean, I was five, five to seven years into working for myself, maybe, maybe, maybe less.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: But like I was looking for that, right?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: But not I it had come at the point where I had I was desperately looking for it before, but then had finally like just been like, okay, whatever.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: You you you know, you'll find a mentor or you won't, you'll find someone who can show you the ropes or you won't until then you just keep hustling, right?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so so it was, it was just it felt like it was out of nowhere, um, but in in the best way.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I suppose if anything, first tip to folks listening update your LinkedIn bio because if you want documentary filmmakers to reach out to you in Indianapolis, they will.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and it was perfect.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you just had the it, Caitlin, and you still do.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't remember all the specifics, but you you were in a you know, you were in the world of elite talent already, and that our friend Dan Meadows is who I talked to about you.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't remember the short documentary that I saw that you did, but I liked it.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: I remember really enjoying it and just thinking, wow, she's got it.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I text Dan, I was like, you know, I saw this young lady, Caitlin Calhoun, she's on LinkedIn with you.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: What's she like?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Oh, she's great.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and and Dan's a man of few words, and but he's also a very honest man of few words.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it was just that gut feeling of of of seeing your work and saying, Oh wow, she really knows how to tell a story and craft a craft a narrative.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I go back to that crafted word.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's why there's a reason I named the podcast what I named it, yeah.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so it's appropriate with you.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the tougher conversations are when people do approach you, and I get approached quite a bit where they just they might not have that it, or they might not have uh they'll pitch you a project, or they'll they'll tell you an idea, and you're like, ooh, that's you got one in one hundred thousand of a chance to pull that one off.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: But with you is the opposite.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, wow, she's someone who um, you know, I would love to build build something with.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I love it.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Mutually beneficial, hopefully.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a good life.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, this spring it'll be about four years since we met, which is super freaking exciting.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Look at us.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I know.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And but before this becomes just like uh a compliment Caitlin for an hour love fest, uh let's let's dig into you and your your career and like and how how you got to the point that you are today.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so can we dig into your early career a little bit?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like when did you decide that storytelling and and maybe specifically like documentary style storytelling was the the point and the goal?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and then from there, like how did you how did you start digging in?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: So my origin story, you know, began when I was, I think it was second or third grade.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: When whenever it was, I I tell this story a lot.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'll try to make it brief.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're from Ohio.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm born and raised in Indianapolis, late 70s.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: We had horrific blizzards, like, you know, where we were we had to stay in.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now I remember one day my dad got up and he's like, hey, we're we're gonna go check something out.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a blizzard outside.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, man, really, but I was kind of excited.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, well, let's let's check this out.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: I and I remember driving down 56th Street to Lafayette Square, they had a really big movie theater, and literally, Caitlin, people were like crashed on the side.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: We should not be out here, like no survivors.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so anyway, we get there, and I'd seen movies before, but for some reason, when I saw Close Encounters of the Third Kind by Steven Spielberg, it just it really resonated with me.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, well, that's that's really what I want to do.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've never really had a plan B.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: I've never really wavered for that.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, of course, I've had other jobs for for money reasons, but I knew that that's what I was gonna go, that's what I wanted to do.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I I end up at Indiana University, and at the time this is in the late 80s, so equipment was was hard to come by, and any type of video equipment.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we and I I was part of the student union and I had access to a camcorder and a cuts only edit I don't even want to call it sweet edit system, and so I was the brother on campus with the camera just filming stuff, and I got a bit of a reputation doing that, and people started asking me to film their what was called their neophyte step shows, which are black fraternity and black sorority dance events that when they cross over into becoming an official part of the frat or the sorority, they celebrate by doing step shows.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, all the time that I'm at college, I'm studying Scorsese and Vincent Manelli and Kubrick, and and I'm I'm thinking scripted's the way I'm gonna go.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I I ended up really enjoying the non-scripted showing up somewhere and making a story out of it, type of a type of a vibe.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: So so I did my first documentary was on step shows.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: I did it my junior year at IU.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: So then I graduate and I was very pretentious.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I really thought I was that dude.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I went to LA for like four days.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, nah, I don't want to be be out here.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna come back to Indianapolis.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I decided to redo the step show documentary that I had done my junior year and do it professionally.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So with like a$5,000 grant, I I hired some people: James Johnson, Otis Jones, those guys took a chance on me.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: They got paid nothing, and we ended up carving out a documentary out of it.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so then from there, I was able to find a distribution for it.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Which at the time, this is 92.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's not this is before internet, this is before this is even before cable and and streaming and everything was analog.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it was pretty unique for this 22-year-old black guy to make a movie and get national distribution for it.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then after that, I became very fortunate to to have business partners, milk Thompson and and Bill Mays.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we started a company in '93 and um and I was off to the races.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And from after that, I was I was working, I w but it was a hustle.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I just I I had a knack for understanding that I had if I wanted to tell a story, I had to uh embrace all the challenges of telling a story, which is finding the financing and finding the crew and finding the vision of the story and finding some sort of go-to-market strategy.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I got a I got a head start.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: I learned a lot in those early days.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I had some really fortunate deals in the 90s that kind of kept me going.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then that led to me, me and Michael Hussein had met, someone that brought us together.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then when he got started with the ESPN Sports Century stuff, it was me, him, and Matt Mays, and and a lot of people know Michael, and a lot of people know Matt Mays who listen to your your podcast.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's and that's when I learned sophisticated documentary production.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I also learned I want to be independent.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to, I don't really enjoy people telling me how to do certain things.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a nice guy, but I'm pretty decent storyteller.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: So stay out of my way.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so those were my formative years.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Those were the years of where I was just but I was very determined.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: I and I I'll tell this story real quickly.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when I finished stepping, I finished a rough cut, summer of 92.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And this is probably the proudest moment of my career, in that I went to New York for a film.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was the Independent Feature Project or the Independent Film Market.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember the exact name of it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I took stepping and that's where I found distribution.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I I knew nobody, I was one of two, every all the filmmakers were from New York or California.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: There was this other filmmaking duo from Kansas City.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was the only person from Indianapolis.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but I decided to bet on myself, if you will, which which I tell people to do all the time, and and went out to New York, knowing nobody, having these laminated flyers that I was passing out to HBO and to Showtime and to distributors, and and and to come out of that with the deal was was was pretty special.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how it all got started with with that deal.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: So well, and I I'd love to double-click on because this is something that you've you've said since day one of me knowing you, which also sounds like day one of you pursuing things, is is making sure you're considering the full picture of the business.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so would you mind elaborating on that, right?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because like we're I I want to dig into collaborative efforts and this, that, and the other, and like what that looks like now on like the back half of our conversation, but I really want to emphasize, right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because like creativity, like you can you can keep feeding that, but if nobody ever sees anything and this, that and the other.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I I would love to hear kind of your take and and your uh way to approach that.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is where I I I turn into the grumpy old man and that you know It's my favorite part of you.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: I love a grumpy old situation.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's because I got that in me too, you know?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we do.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I the frustration is well, you know, I I do have a saying, fidelity to budget, fidelity to narrative.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning that you have to go raise the money in some capacity.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Either someone hires you or someone invests or someone gives you a grant or whatever.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And whatever you raise, you stick to it.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you don't do you don't you don't spend if you got a hundred grand but your budget's 200 grand, don't think all of a sudden one day another 100 grand is gonna show up.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's your budget.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: So fidelity to that, and then the fidelity to the story is that, and oddly, this is the part I take for granted now, is just you know, making sure that you have a narrative that that you have a vision for, that you have a passion for, that that welcomes collaboration, and just making sure that you keep that balance of the business side, um, which is my producing side, and the directing side, which is my storytelling side.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm starting to enjoy the the business side more than the directing.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um for years it was the opposite.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the fun of it, Caitlin, is that if you know you have to take yourself seriously.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't a hobby, this isn't, you know, when you're dealing with with budgets and finances, you you've got to be accountable.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's consequences to that.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I honestly look, this would this will be good because I I get hit up all the time.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Look at this project, I've got this idea.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly look at their business model if they have one before I even think about the story.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, is this something that I could personally take to a network or to a potential funder or to a media financer?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: What is the ROI for this?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what is the distribution strategy?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if I don't see it, then it doesn't really matter to me how great the concept is.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: If it if it can't exist in a financially prudent, profitable way, it's really not worth my time trying to trying to make it work out.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: So well, and then I would also argue like people need to value their own time, like you said, take themselves seriously and make sure that when they're putting something out there, it's not just gonna like end up dead on a hard drive, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: That there's actually a plan after the fact.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I think that's something that often in this industry is you know forgotten.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've done my fair share of like, yeah, the the second hundred K will come soon, and it's and then you're spending money that's not there yet, right?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or or you and I know you've seen that.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: It is tough, but once you, I mean, like hopefully once you get that burn, you remember with the scarf, right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't yeah uh go back that direction again.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: But but it's real, and and but it's also like this is if you want it to be your livelihood, it's your livelihood.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, take it serious like it is, yeah.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I tell people that I it it fluctuates, but in 2024 and in 2026, I'm probably gonna spend, and I've got 10 different projects going on at the same time.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's not an exaggeration, and I'll probably spend 70% of the time producing, which is deal making and fundraising, as opposed to the 30% is creative, because I you have to continue to raise the money or do the deal, and um, otherwise the the engine shuts down.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so I you know, people you know, learn how to raise money, learn how to run a business, understand accounting.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the stuff that people just never want to talk about.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: No one ever, you know, no one's gonna come to us, Caitlin, and said, say, okay, I've I've figured out a great accounting system to you know knock my budget down 20%.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if they did, I'd actually, I'm like, okay, now you're thinking.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Can't wait to talk about it.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: But it, but other, but you know, people come with the creative first, which I get as they should, but if it's not equal parts creative and business, it's a it's a quick pass on me, usually.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, totally, totally.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, cool, cool, cool, cool.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Hey y'all, you know I love telling stories, gathering stories, and finding a way to help people connect their story with the people that will get it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what my story strategy sessions are all about.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: So over at Calhoun Creative Consulting, my strategic storytelling firm, we do one-on-one and or facilitated workshops in relation to really honing in the strategy around your story.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bit of messaging meets content creation, meets storytelling.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then how do we put that out in the world?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: How do we show up regularly?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's a bit of mindset work around it, right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: To actually tell your story, whether you're launching something new or trying to rework your brand or just feeling a little foggy on how to communicate with your people.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: This is how to get clear.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: We'll dig into things like your narrative, how to uncover what matters most, maybe map out a few content pillars while we're at it.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: You'll also get a recording of our session so you can revisit the conversation anytime you like.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: Let's shape a story that actually feels like you.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: So book yours today.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: There is a link in the show notes.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And hey, while you're at it, use the code podcast, all caps, podcast for 25% off your session.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: I would be honored to spend time with you and suss out your story.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dive back into the episode, shall we?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: I actually want to go to what we are speaking about right before we hit record, which is like, okay, so we're past that level of like, you don't talk about money.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: We've got this like equilibrium in our approach, we've got this balance in our approach where we're like making sure that like the the business is matching the creative.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: What does like that look like?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like once you get past the like, the like we're not taking ourselves seriously and we are taking ourselves seriously, and then you're like, you're in the room and working with people who also take themselves seriously, who are also at the top of their game.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: What's next?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do we how do we approach that?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I I think you I think you approach it with the same balance.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna get into details because it's between me and you, but you know, I'm excited about the potential finances coming to you for the projects we're working on.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just let's just be honest about it.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know everyone's talking about the dream.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And this, and oh, I wanna wanna use this camera and it's gonna be this story.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: I try to be as upfront about the money and talk about it and be honest about it and give people a heads up because if you're expecting this figure to be this and I'm coming in at that, we need to talk talk about that up front and then take action in valuing people.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there's the there's nothing that I enjoy more than a payment hits and I can text you to say, you know, check check your check your account because best day of the year.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to ask me.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: We don't I I know you're gonna invoice me, but that money's coming to you right now.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that creates a culture of a little bit of okay, if I do this with Gerald and he says he's gonna pay me and he says he's gonna come through, it's likely going to happen.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if it doesn't happen, he doesn't take the hit and it falls back on me.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I come to you and say, you know what, this this client didn't pay, I'm gonna have to deal with that, but you did the work, I'm gonna have to pay you anyway.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so so you have to keep that same balance with your collaborators, and and you do talk money up front and you do try to build confidence, you try to be as honest as possible.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's many times where I'll come to you and say, Hey, this is all I got.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if you if you walk, I get it, but I love for you to be on it, and then it's up to you if you want to do it or not, and it's not gonna change my my desire to work with you.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's it's a business decision at first.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: It should be a business decision and a business agreement at first.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Once you get that out of the way, then we can, you know, then we can really start to cook and then we can really start figuring out what are the ingredients that we need, how much do you want to put this in for in the oven?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm thinking, you know, 350 for 20 minutes, but you might say five, four hundred for a half hour.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm really basing our discussion on our relationship because it's one of my favorites.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: But but but I try to do that with every I try to do that with everyone else, but you gotta keep the balance, Caitlin, and you gotta be honest.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you don't the the worst thing as a freelancer is to be in the dark on when your money's coming.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: That uh just why do that to people?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and I and I don't like to say, yo, man, it's you know it's gonna come, should hit, I'm gonna pay you by blah, blah, blah.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, just be up front and say, you know what, I'm gonna call them today, I'll let you know exactly when they think it's gonna hit, hopefully sooner than later, but I'm doing the best that I can.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so once you get that kind of that that that murky, am I gonna get paid?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, am I gonna get screwed over?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because we all have been, then you can then balance starts to come into form.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if if you look at us with Green Lawn, for example, you know, we came up with a budget.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember when or how you got paid, but before you dig into Green Lawn and like the business side of it, can you give a quick little summary of the project itself?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, Green Lawn.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't have to dig into the full thing.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to make sure we give context before we talk about like the behinds of a thing.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's yeah, it's not public yet, but it might be about the time this comes out.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: But but the city of Indianapolis was taking on a huge construction project in downtown Indy, constructing a really stylized bridge that was both for cars and pedestrians.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of historians had an issue with the the location of the bridge because they they felt that there were still remains there from some early cemeteries dating back to the earliest days of Indianapolis.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: But the the information that was available at the time was that all the bodies had been excavated from this this construction site.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the city moves on, they start the construction for the bridge, and unfortunately, remains started to appear and be uncovered.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so the city put a pause on the construction, took a step back to figure out what is the proper way to do an excavation for this site, and they move forward with the excavation, hired an architecture an archaeological team, gathered a group of historians and genealogists and city engineers.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's uh for me, it's a it's a wonderful story of people coming together to do the right thing, and what they've been able to uncover through the excavation is at times very breathtaking and and at times very moving.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that said, when I got the job, let's be real, we were we were both busy, and my two go-to editors, Luke Renner, was finishing up When Everyone Swims, Dan was finishing up a pilot we were doing for the Globetrotters.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and I went back and forth.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, I I know I I think I went back to some of the conversations that you and I had because you have a bit of a burden of being able to do a lot of different things.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I I don't to the point too where like I was like as we were talking about our documentary filmmaking experiences, I like don't know if I actually talk about how much documentary filmmaking I've done on this.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like I, you know, I bring it up like maybe every other episode, but I'm like, do people who listen to this even know about that?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because then and then you get into documentary editing, documentary filmmaking, and then there's all these different there's producing, there's directing, there's editing, right?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I I do touch a lot of it, but I wouldn't have it any other way.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: But continue.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so and you know, we talk a lot, and and I knew it was a it was a heavy, it was a heavy edit.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot was writing on the edit.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of, you know, going back to betting on yourself, not to go too far into the weeds of the deal, but instead of them paying me all up front to do a full documentary, I said, let me just do a proof of concept first.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get a feel for each other.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want this to turn into a propaganda piece, and uh there needs to be some sort of journalistic integrity and space to tell this story uh the way it needs to be told.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, all that said, I gamble because they could have easily looked at the proof and said, Well, thanks, and but no thanks, we're not moving forward with this.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: That said, it was a really big decision to make.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember, I apologize, I don't remember you and I talking about it that much.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: It just felt right.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you know you might not know this, Caitlin, but you say you use that term quite a bit.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: That feels right.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh you'll say that a lot.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and when I know when you say that, it's not a throwaway line.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: You really mean it.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what we did was we talked about the project.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure we talked about the scope, because we like that word.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: We do, we love it.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and I just I felt like, yeah, this is this this this is gonna work.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and then I want to rewind about the that feels right, because there have been things that we've talked about and potential clients where you you and I are like this if if this where we're like this ain't it, like you know, like because and that's good too, you know, and to the point where like, and I'm like, I'm a big proponent of like once we get past three meetings, if nothing's moving, let's stop.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, like I just I don't have that kind of time, you know?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And like, and I get that like sometimes like you're like, okay, things need to percolate with people, but but again, that goes back to whether it feels right or not.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like if we're three meetings in and I'm like not still jazzed and you're not moving, then we're not doing it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you being someone else, right?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm always working with you.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: But like but it is one of those things where, like, you know, 10 plus years into working for myself, I'm like, I'm just tired of yeah, three plus meetings, no, thank you.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um unless we're like making progress and we're like we're starting to actually collaborate versus like me just like receive everything and and tell you what it looks like, and then you just don't receive that and and whatever.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: But well, that's me, just you know.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you know, that's where my experience really benefits me because it is a gut feeling that I go by now.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And if someone doesn't feel right or something doesn't feel right, or if something keeps me up at night and it's a particular person or a situation, you know, I know that that's my body reacting based on all the experience that I've had, both good and bad, to say this isn't this isn't moving forward the right way.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it takes time.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And not to not to we I know we'll talk about other stuff other than Green Line, but it's a fun burden to have.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're editing, I do I do want to say this about the creative process.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm the director, which I uh which I am and was, and I'm giving you something to edit and it's not working, I think we were both individually beating ourselves up.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and I never wanted you to beat yourself up.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and we also weren't think of another production to the point where like when was sleep happening?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was, you know, and this one part just was not working, and and and I think I think I was very like, Oh, why can't you get this done faster for Gerald?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but it's like that's it.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, I never felt that.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I thought that's what I thought.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I never thought that.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that, you know, and I told Luke this recently, you know, it's we're really composers.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: The when everyone swims has a rhythm to it, Bright Path has a rhythm to it.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at my earlier work, Step In or Face in the Facade, even Damon Bailey, they have a rhythm to it.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that editors have to have a rhythm.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they have to have some sort of pace and tone to set to that's established to tell the story.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And with that particular edit, and we are weighing the weeds on this, but the proof of with the proof of concept, I just could not get it right.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I brought people in to do read voiceover, I I tried this, I tried that, and I was so frustrated with myself.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think I told you this.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is crazy.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: I had a nightmare at like four or five in the morning about ice coming to my cul-de-sac and taking people that I know away from me.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I woke up really startled and and really upset, and I don't know where, but the text that we used in the edit came straight to me.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I wrote it down really quickly.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: I figured out what kind of shots needed to go with it.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: I emailed you, I said, I think I finally figured it out.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then this is where Caitlin's magic comes in.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: The music selection, the pacing of it, you're composing now.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've given you the notes.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now you get to compose.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: You move Eunice sound bite to the top.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, those it's those little things that I love about collaboration is that I'm gonna give you something good eventually.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: It took me a little while with that, and now you have the opportunity to to make it even better.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if you if you go off the rails, we'll have a conversation about that.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: But you but but again, it goes back to instinct.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Instinct about who to do business with, instinct about how to tell a story, instinct of man, that this intro is not working, and if I don't fix this in the next two or three days, we're not gonna get this project renewed.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: So Yeah.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Cause it really at that point it did come down to the to the intro.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and I want to say, like, to call out the the point that you made about Eunice was one of the is one of the characters and of of the of the film.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and um I this is why like this, what I do here in these like interviews and conversations, it's it's about getting to know people, right?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I while as the editor, you you do develop relationships with people that you've never met, right?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like I always found that to be so fascinating to the point where like there was in the thick of my like assistant editing days when I was really helping with like a lot of Eli Lilly edits and a lot of like those like major corporations based in Indianapolis, I would be in line at coffee and I'd be like, Oh, I know you from an edit, but I don't know you.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like awkward as hell because you've heard their, you know, you've heard their interviews, you you know, you know their name, their lowest third, their job title, and you're like, and now you know their coffee order and it's great, but it's cool.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: But all to say, right, it's like you knew the you knew the people from like meeting in person, being the producer, being the director, seeing them like at meetings on the regular live, building relationships with them.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: But then as an editor, like I I go in and then I like I'm building relationships, right?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then you like have a relationship with particular deliveries and sound bites, and and then yeah, and then you kind of move it around and and uh and configure it as such.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: I freaking love it.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's you know, it's it's as a director, it really is about listening and connecting and throw trust in there too.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: And my job is there's a great videographer in Indianapolis.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: He had kind of a Sam Elliott look.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: He's he's a local legend for us, uh, plus 40, plus 45, plus 50 uh video folks around here in Indianapolis, Dustin Teal.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I I learned so much from Dustin.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: He's the one that really formed me and made me a professional.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was this goofy kid, would just talk shit on on the set or whatever, and and Dustin would be the one who would pull me aside.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he had the guts because I can be pretty stubborn and strong-minded, and he would he would man, he would correct me and he would put me in my place.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and and Dustin, we were working on a documentary I did called Game of Change, and we were in Mississippi filming.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he I I don't know, I can't remember the full context, but he just looked at me, he's like, you know, we're all working for the editor.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think he was trying to figure out what to film.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he said, and so I'm not in here to uh make cutesy shots and make it look really beautiful and it doesn't end up in the show.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: I Gerald need to think of what your story is doing, and and and you have to give me the freedom to collect the content and the visuals to give to the editor so that he or she has the elements to tell the story.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and and so in dealing with you and dealing with Luke and dealing with Dan and dealing with Kenny and dealing with PJ, you know, these people that I work with, I really take it seriously.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've never worked with a failed editor.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's my failing if it doesn't work, it's it's on me.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I take great responsibility in that.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's a lot of pressure, but that that pressure is really a privilege.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: We get to tell these amazing stories, and and so why are we doing them if we're not gonna do them at the at the highest level?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: So well, and you know, you you said the phrase fidelity to the narrative, but you you phrase it to mean differently in the past, and I don't remember if it's like maintaining the integrity of the narrative, or there's a way that you said it in the past that always hits me, but of course, apparently it's not hitting me right now.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's it being abandoned.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um but what I do love, and honestly, it's like what as soon as you said that thing about you know, we're we're doing this to serve the editor.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, that's why I got so thick into editing in my early days, because like it it gave me like a sense of control around deciding what like I'm like the director can say whatever they want, but when it comes down to it, you're in charge of the final placement of every single frame, you know.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so there was a bit of like a controlling Caitlin being like, this is what I want because I can decide the final, like the final bit and where everything lands, which you know isn't the most collaborative sentiment, but still like button.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: It is Caitlyn.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, let me speak to that.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's really sending the kid off to college when I give the the editor the script.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, yeah, back in the day, and this is in the the 90s and even in the 2000s, you know, the producer director would be in the edit bay, and you know, they got the little lunch menu on the side, and they got the nice comfy couch, and then the editor's doing the thing, and the director's looking over at his or her back saying, barking out instructions.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: And this will this will make you laugh.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: The first time I didn't do that, where I didn't sit in the edit the full time was with Luke because we were working on the Andy Gibb episode for AE Biography, and at the time I was working for a company that was insolvent, and there was a lot of bad stuff going on there, and I was tending to other business, and I I just and I remember buying Luke dinner from Spaghetti Factory because we were behind and the network was crawling up, you know, really upset with us.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And Luke said, All right, I'll I'll knock it out for you.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I left him alone for 26 hours.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not he doesn't remember that.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that man, yeah.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and he knocked it out and he and he and he brought it back to brought it back to where it needed to be, and it was it was really, really good.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so from that point on, I was like, well, maybe I don't need to always be in there.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I worked, I probably worked with Dan the most.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: And Dan, I don't know if I've ever sat in an edit with Dan.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: I there's a great story with Dan.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I credit Dan for saving my company.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I had just started um Studio Autour, and I got this really big gig with a really high-end documentary production company called Shine Global.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: They're based out of New York, they've won Oscars, and we were doing this short video, and my executive producer emailed me on a Sunday and said, You have to have an edit ready by Friday because I gotta show it to the network.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: And my dumb butt was like, Well, no, I need two weeks.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, You have to have an edit done by Friday, and we're showing the network.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so, me and Eric Arnold, who was a great collaborator, we drove to Tennessee.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: We filmed on a Tuesday because I had a lot of people.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you didn't have footage yet?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: We had fun some footage, but I needed to get a lot more and a lot more coverage.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wednesday, I scripted it out, gave it to Dan.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Dan, he will never remember this.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Dan literally said, Okay, please stay out of my way for the next day and a half.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've got it.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm on pens and needles because again, you're bent on yourself, and this Academy Award-winning executive producer is like, you need to come through on this.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, you know, but I had trust in Dan.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I love it when editors, maybe because I'm not there, I I I kind of have to own this.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I give them the freedom to explore a little bit more so that it so that it fits for them.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: When I write a script, it fits for me, but they've got to make it fit for them.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: And Dan did a brilliant edit, and the network loved it, and it ended up winning tons of awards and got tons of view be views because they distributed it through Facebook and Paramount TV, I think.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so you know, you keep learning.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you you and I've I've not we've never, I don't think we've I don't think I've set in an edit with you.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: We haven't no edited as much.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, I know.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, no, no, Gerald.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you're saying.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I'm you know, it's it's just it's been a while since I've done it that way.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Since, you know, you're right.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's just like times are just different with that, right?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I've um I also don't know if I ever technically got the opportunity because there's some like I've I've been, you know, production assistant, I've gotten snacks, I've you know, I've experienced that where like she's the one ordering the lunch for the, you know, for the execs.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and then so frankly, like the opportunity to, you know, there there have been small things at agencies where like they come in the room and and they're reviewing stuff and we're doing feedback like live, but not the actual like edit going through selects deciding things.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, I'm not really super mad about it.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe like, you know, five years ago I'd have been like, when are they ever gonna give me the chance?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like it's actually there's a there's a privilege to like being like, here's what I got, you know, and and going from there.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I'm different.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: I still do the old school scripting, which I'm sure drives you and Kenny and Peter.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's perfect Luke and Dan nuts.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I have to have a way to explain to you this is my vision, as specific as I can be.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when you get held up, let me know.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: But but you know, but I'm I'm fortunate to where that bridge works.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the script seems to make enough sense to people.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and when it doesn't, you know, you can add lib and you can add stuff.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's shots that you did in the Green Line edit that I just think are brilliant that 300 people wouldn't pick up.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I picked it up and I was like, oh, it's brilliant.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's a it's a fun process.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's but you know, those those might be dwindling for me a little bit as I go into a little bit more of the financing and fundraising and development.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: But as long as I'm still directing, I I I do cherish it and I do enjoy it.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: It probably gives me more headaches than the financing.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've done my career's done a 180.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Before I was like, where's the money coming from?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's like, okay, I can get the money, but how come I can't get the open for Greenland to work?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's driving me nuts.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very fortunate that way.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting and and uh it's interesting and cool that that that has flipped and just yeah, fascinating how like you know, I mean, this is a career, you know, you're a career creative, a career producer, career director, career, you know, filmmaker.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's cool to see like how things have changed but also stayed the same in other ways.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's crazy.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: I want people to understand this because I am proud that I've been able to sustain this, in that 1% of every independent film and film made either breaks even or makes a profit, 1%.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's probably skewed.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: 1% of the films that get picked up by Sundance get picked up for distribution, 1%.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then 90% of the content that we see on the documentary and the scripted side are are made by or directed by white men.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: So so trust me when I say I received that very nice thing that you said that I've made a career out of this.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because the odds have always been stacked against me and stacked against you.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean that we can't do it, but you just have to be prudent.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be a little bit better at certain things than other people.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to go in eyes wide open saying, All right, if I'm gonna do this, I got a one in one hundred shot of making it.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's daunting, but that's but that those them them's the breaks.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to figure out a way where your projects do make money, your projects aren't insolvent, your projects do get finished, your projects do make it in to the uh into the marketplace.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess some Ed Harris and Apollo 13, you know, I'm not losing this ship, not on my watch, whatever the hell.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, you never do.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: But but you can't do that.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't do that to you, I can't do that to the store, I can't do that to the crew, can't do that to the donors and investors.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that that that is my fidelity is to all these beautiful people that I get to work with that I owe it to them that we're gonna see it all the way through.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: So right.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, the whole great great power, great responsibility kind of thing, right?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: You've got a like a lot of responsibility to a lot of different players.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: And but that's like that's but that doesn't mean that you like I'm interpreting this, right?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: You that you aren't super grateful and enjoying like everything that you you've gotten to do over your career kind of thing, that's exactly right.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the the the expectations, I told Kenny this the other day.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: We have the burden of expectation of excellence, yeah.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: So we can't do that work, but it's also like it is a burden, and like I wouldn't want it the other way.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just because I've I've done that where like honestly, there there was a chapter where I was very mad and very bitter about like people not delivering excellence, and it's like yeah, I'm now realizing that I mean it would absolutely suck to be okay with that.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the majority of filmmakers, right?
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: I hate to say it, right?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: But they they do settle, they settle financially and don't they settle on the business side and they settle on the creative side, they don't even know what's good anymore, they can't even tell what what works, they're that lost.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: So and I said it and I don't care if it's public, so we're figuring it, we're figuring it all out.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um okay, is there anything that you were like really excited to share on the on the pod today before I I wrap us up with some basic things that I usually wrap us up with?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: As always, you allowed me to meander and find my point as I was saying it.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a skill set that you have that's so fantastic.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: And please know that I I and I'm not just saying this 2026 is going to be your biggest year.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Barnone, it's happening.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'll play a little small part of it because I know the projects that you and I are going to be collaborating on.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is crazy.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: The the the world is the Rome is burning.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's bad out there.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: People aren't working, networks aren't buying, finances are tough.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I think because of the the group that we um associate with and collaborate with, I'm really bullish on the future.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that might come back and kick bite me in the butt in the butt, but that's how I feel right now.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I I especially feel that way about you.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I like to say.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate that.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: You're I mean, you're showing up to the party, so it's you know, it's not gonna bite you in the butt.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: You're here.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: You're showing up.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you gotta you gotta put in the work, and like there's not like you you said you were you gotta you got a break.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: You were really lucky early on, right?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'm like, yeah, but who's out here at 21 being done with a feature film that he raised his own money, you know, and learned like found funding and that you like you that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't reproduced the film, right?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: You could have been like, here's my first product, enjoy like that.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: They wouldn't have gotten distribution, you know, printing all this you should, you know, printing all those flyers off, you know, going as analog as you know, the times would make three quarter inch tape.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, that's right.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like enjoying it.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's another, but that's another stat.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's 78% of people who make their first film don't make another one, something crazy like that.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you just have to have the resilience and stick to it and figure out what works.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, there's no magic formula, man.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: You have to grind it out.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: You have to I think the title of this episode is screw the statistics, Gerald.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you have to, yeah.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're aware of them and you're like, ooh, this is gonna be tough.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but but after a while, you're like, Well, I'm gonna figure out a way to make the statistics work for me, or that I'm the I'm the exception, not the rule.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's yeah, and if you base your decision on that.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do want to say this really quick.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'll say this really, really quick, and props to you.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, I'm ashamed to say that in my early careers, women were only designated to be production managers, not even really producers.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's you, there's Deanna Weatherly, there's Shelby, there's Victoria and Fort Wayne, there's Deja, our friend Heather Brogdon.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's so many women out here doing it.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: That warms my heart.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then my my producing partners of Joy Reed and Adrian Lopez and Angela Northington.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I really do tell women we're in a peffed up period right now, but but I really think that the future of cinema, the future of media is is with women.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that to be cute or fancy.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Most network um people we work with are women.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh kudos to you for overcoming what is a what a very sexist industry.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: I I I I give props to you and Deanna and and everybody.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh I'm in awe of everybody.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I did want to say that.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate I appreciate you saying that because uh I just do.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just put it there.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: Put it there.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is there anything?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: I was I also like to ask if there's anywhere people can find you, but we also don't have to go down that route.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: If you but I like if people want to connect with you on LinkedIn or or or Studio Tour on on Insta.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: And LinkedIn is fantastic.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: If if if if it weren't for LinkedIn, and I didn't see the documentary, yeah.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: This would never you wouldn't be listening to us right now.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that'd be terrible.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, that's a terrible thought.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just so grateful for you, Kaylin.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad we met.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: Back at you.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I I never asked you if I could call you my mentor, but I just do, which you know that.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're peers, my friend.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know we are, but I'm not sure.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: I get it, I get it, I get it.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, like it's just the best way to refer to you.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: But, anyways, thank you so much for your time.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: You got another meeting, you gotta get out of here.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome, Caitlin.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: Crafted Connections is lovingly produced by Calhoun Creative Consulting, a strategic storytelling firm dedicated to helping people and brands tell their stories in a way that resonates.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and connect with us on Instagram at Crafted Connections Pod.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: Keep creating, keep connecting, until we meet again.