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15. Estate Planning Beyond Documents: Key Insights for Financial Advisors with Emily Rassam · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not an if we die, it's when.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's when when we die.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's gonna happen, and we gotta face it and um, you know, put some pen to paper about what we want to happen at that point.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: As a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth, I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Together, we'll explore the human side of financial planning, from understanding client emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: We'll also focus on your own growth because the best advisors are those who are continually evolving.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Get ready to transform your practice and yourself.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is Planning and Beyond.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Planning and Beyond Podcast.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I am your host, Ashley Kwame.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Today I am joined by Emily.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Emily, I'm so excited that you're here with me.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: We have a unique relationship.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, I've known each other for a little while.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and today we're gonna be talking about all things estate planning, which is right up your alley, your bread and butter, your area, your niche.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for coming on here and chatting with me.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I love talking about it.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's morbid, um, but love talking about what happens and how do we think about and what are our preferences about what we do with our money when we die.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a fun topic.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: You have, you know, working with you kind of this last year, I have been so impressed by the level of thoughtfulness that you have around this.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like you said, it is morbid, right?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Talking about our death, talking about like our legacy, you know, jokes aside, like it's very emotional.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I just, you know, again, to reiterate, been so impressed is just your thoughtfulness around it and how much care and attention and detail you put into working with clients around this.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I'd like to, you know, not reveal your secret sauce, not reveal your secret sauce, but just really kind of talk through a little bit what you've seen to be helpful from the estate planning end.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we can start just kind of high level.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: When you are thinking about estate planning with clients, you know, as a CFP, as an as an advisor, like how how are you thinking about it?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: How are you working that in?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what's that feedback from your clients that you're seeing?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we aren't trained really that an estate plan is a set of four documents, three documents or four documents.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um, interestingly enough, my process I call beyond the documents.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we'll talk about what that looks like.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: But really, it's, you know, people think that okay, I have an estate plan in place if I have put together a will and a trust and a healthcare power of attorney or advanced health care directive and a financial power of attorney, and I'm done.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the issue with that is those documents really only go so far.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a really good start.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: But one, we need to implement those documents and we need to make sure that all of your accounts are titled appropriately and all of your beneficiaries are updated.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but those are all still just table stakes for me.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: So if somebody has their documents done, that's great.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if they don't, we actually help our clients get their documents done, um, complementary.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then we help implement those documents, but then there's so much more.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so just over the years, and in my 17 years of being a you know, thought planner with my clients is that I've seen people in these executor roles in our executive executrix roles, um, and being in a situation where potentially somebody has passed suddenly, or maybe somebody thought they had a very well-planned estate.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: But always there's still this confusion and trying to understand where everything is kept in the organization and where and how are bills paid and who can access those.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um there's even recently where I live in Charlotte, North Carolina, there was a local estate planning attorney who didn't have a legacy contact set up on his iPhone and his family just never got into his iPhone after he passed.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so all of these things that I start to see and think about about people's wishes or desires or organization or all these little things to do to make sure that your email account and passwords and iPhone and all of these different pieces are accessible to your beneficiaries and your family after you pass.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I've created a really long checklist that just gets longer and longer every single year of all the things to potentially think about.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's just making sure that you just document all of your um different pieces of your life, but also your wishes and what's meaningful to you.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so another piece of that is I send my clients out to do have these conversations.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I typically will send them out on date night and give them these conversation starters to say, really think through, you know, what do you want your end of life to look like and your funeral services?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if something happened to you today, what do you think the other person would have trouble accessing or understanding about your world?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have a partner, then it's typically just jotting it down on a notebook, um, making sure that you have that information documented that's important.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so that you're not creating this situation where your people that are left don't know what to do with your things.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so with your physical belongings, with your body, with your assets, with um anything else that might be important to you, your dog.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, all of those things are so important to document.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we guide our clients through some of those conversations that they don't sit down and think about at 12 o'clock on a Friday.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, they're living their normal day-to-day lives.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of make them zoom out and think about um really what all that looks like and how to give the best gift you can give to your people, which is just that piece and organization and make it very clear to everybody what your intentions were, what your wishes were, and what you'd like to happen next.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when we first started, you know, you and I first kind of started working together and you talked about the legacy contact in the iPhone.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And kid you not, I got off that call, changed mine, uh, like figured that out, and then emailed Clayton and was like, do this right now.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Emily said so.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you need to do this right now.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: But what I have learned from you that it makes so much sense, but to your point, it's just not something I think most clients or even people just think about is the level of detail that goes into that.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, it is emotional.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It stirs up a lot, right?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's also just the behavioral piece, and sometimes that there can be hurdles with that.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, you talked about it being a gift, being able to think through a lot of that and offer your family, your loved ones, this peace of mind and this organization.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a it is a gift.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: It is a gift.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: What when you are, you know, when you're kind of bringing this up and talking about it with clients, what what are there hesitations there?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like what do you see on the client end?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh let's say maybe not the clients that are wonderful and easy to work with, right?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe where there's some resistance.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like what do you see kind of being some of that resistance there?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, how how do you navigate that?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really have a have a problem with people understanding the importance of doing that.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, I think we they're disconnected from, okay, if I'm, you know, 42 years old, why do I need to think about this now?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is is just part of us as humans.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: We don't think about every day, we don't think about us potentially not being here on this planet anymore.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, being busy.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if anybody has young kids and it's summertime and everyone's busy, it's we're not going to sit down and write our estate planning documents.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's being confused by it, not understanding what they what they potentially need to do.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: So understanding the importance, but not having somebody to hold their hand through that type of process or not knowing where to go.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I even have I have several clients that are attorneys in other specialties that then when they sit down to do their estate planning documents, like, okay, I learned about this a long time ago, but I don't know what to do.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what these documents are, and I don't know what I need to be thinking about.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so can you just help me through this?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so some of it is just helping people through the implementation.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I usually um will kind of tell them some stories about people who pass unexpectedly younger.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had a friend who died um at 37 and she had a two-year-old daughter.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the the first thing I thought about, you know, we would, there's grief, right?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think about, oh my gosh, her husband doesn't know how diapers are ordered and doesn't know how the household runs at all.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because my friend, she was handled everything.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: She handled their finances, she handled the household, she just ran it like a machine.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, that's something that I thought about that, like, man, he really just isn't gonna really know where to go or what to do potentially.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, he figured it all out eventually.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, when you deal with that, you have this emotional devastation.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing, you want to make sure you don't have financial devastation.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's making sure you have appropriate assets and life insurance and stuff like that, but also that you're not passing this, you know, basket of snakes and this big confusing thing to somebody to handle that now is becoming a single parent of a two-year-old and handling their own career and handling um, you know, what to do and making all these major decisions.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I think about is um I that I kind of weirdly getting into this age where people are starting to have things happen.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so having health events or accidents or things that occur.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, I typically will ask people about, you know, what experiences they've seen or heard um, if they've been an executor or what uh maybe they've handled parents or siblings or other people in their lives, um, their estates and what that experience has been like.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I lost my own father when I was 18.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the aspects of that experience that stuck with me was after the funeral, my dad was remarried, he had a uh wife, and my stepmom had just put some of his belongings on a coffee table.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Our belongings that were in our bedroom at his house were in garbage bags by the front door.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so we there was this table of like some just family stuff, like some of my dad's things.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And she just said, just take a couple of things and you know, figure out what you want.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then we just like never talk to her again.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was this really startling event that happened.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And there was nothing that was um, you know, my dad didn't say, like, oh, I'd really like Emily to have this item of mine, and this is what's why it's important or anything like that.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was just there were some random pictures and some family jewelry and whatever.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a couple siblings, and we're all just kind of looking at it like, do you want this?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do I want this?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think about that too, where when people talk about, oh, my kids will just figure it out.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're just leaving everything to our two kids.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, it really is like such a gift to be able to be so clear on um, you know, if I'm in the situation, like my friend's husband, of yep, this is everything that comes on Amazon subscribe and save.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is um what our children need, this is what our household needs, this is who does, you know, cleans our gunners, and this is who, you know, services our house in other ways, and these are how all the bills are paid.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: I obsessively email my husband this kind of stuff, like to the TNF, these pictures are okay to use for my obituary and these aren't.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um these are all the contacts that you you might need.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And anytime there's anything new that happens, like, hey, by the way, you know, we have this old credit card that I closed, like you don't have to worry about that.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I cleared out of the filing cabinet.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So he's got like a million emails from me of every time I think about things because I obsessively think about, you know, if anything happened, I don't want him to have to try to figure anything out.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I practice what I preach, um, maybe a little too much, but just making sure that I'm organized so that somebody isn't gonna come in to a random table full of stuff and like have to make a quick decision about it, or have to like fight over anything because some siblings don't get along, or have to find things, or just not know that something exists and it's part of the trillions of dollars of unclaimed assets that sit on the state's balance sheets every single year.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So these are the things that kick around my head and that I bring to our clients that I like to have just everything kind of figured out and neat and organized and like have that home edit or Marie Kondo kind of approach of just buckets that are labeled and everything's like easy peasy.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I would imagine, and you know, at least from what I see, and I'd love to hear your thoughts too, is that for clients who are older, 50s, 60s, right?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: So like some of this starts to make sense because they're at those ages where they're starting, you know, their mortality is there.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, maybe they're seeing friends that are that are passing or having complicated, you know, health issues.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so it brings all of that kind of to the forefront.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, at least in my experiences, those are the clients that, you know, I don't want to say they're easier to work with, but there's maybe just a little bit more um, I don't know, urgency around trying to get it.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, this is higher on the priority list then because of our age.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: For younger couples, younger clients, it's this disconnect from their future.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's, you know, I've seen that play out just in my own, you know, social circles too.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we've had unfortunate experiences too, where there is some of that and there's not a plan.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's not um conversations that have been had between partners, let alone with a professional to have something in place.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious for those, you know, younger families, younger couples, how do you approach that conversationally?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do you share some of the stories that you kind of just shared here with us?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, or or do you have other uh, I don't want to say kind of tricks up your sleeve, but like strategies uh for maybe helping to shine and shed some light into why this is important to, you know, work through this now as opposed to waiting?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I always start with some stories that are relevant potentially to them.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I ask about their experiences, any beliefs that they might hold about it, um, any preparations that they've done.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to know kind of where they're at, what is their history around estates, around death, around how they feel about it, do what are their feelings about it?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I share the why.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: So why is this important and share a story with that?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at the end of the day, I have to hold hands.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I think makes our process a little bit different.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: That um I will then walk them through the process of creating documents that they've not.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: If they have documents, it's then how do we implement them?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: How do we store them?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's it's really walking people through that, but then also walking people through a checklist of specific conversations.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, like the iPhone thing, I make people do it on the meeting.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody's got their iPhone really right in front of them at all times.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so we we pause the meeting, we do that, and you get this like quick win of all right, we get to check something off the checklist, it's done, and that piece of it is ready.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then we come up with a couple of quick things they can easily do also.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I love kind of working with inertia on getting them just like a couple of quick things done.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, usually they're our clients, right?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a lot of things we can implement for them when they're we're working with them.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, great, we're sending you a Docu sign, we're gonna change your beneficiaries, we're gonna change your account titling.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Here's your form um to make updates that you need to for your house and your car if needed.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, here's the link to the safe that we recommend purchasing on Amazon.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the link to the page protectors we recommend purchasing on Amazon.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so try to make that process easy and then we gently check in.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So they have tasks out there in our planning software.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: They've got my checklist, they know that I'm gonna be kind of bugging them a little bit.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we we work through that.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And younger, so I get that the people who really do it are parents.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Parents get it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if they don't have kids yet, I get them through it, they'll go through the process.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: I actually get a lot of resistance from people who are a little bit deeper into retirement that aren't ready to face it and aren't ready to have that conversation.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I get some resistance from people who are maybe they've recently dealt with some death, or um, maybe they just when they start to think about their own mortality, it's really difficult.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I try to keep the conversation very light, but I will have people just kind of shut down.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've had people just cry and say it's really hard to think about, or it's not something I really want to approach right now.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I honor and give them that space and just kind of gently um work with them and try to understand um if there are any pieces of that specifically that are harder to make decisions around.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So are there family dynamics that make it hard to think about, well, who's gonna deliver my eulogy?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because I literally ask that question.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um so maybe we're not ready to make those types of decisions, but here are some things that are are um really important to think about that are really priorities.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I help prioritize the things that they are willing to potentially take action on that don't feel so heavy for them.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then we can circle back on like the pallbearers and the readers and like what kind of flowers you want at your funeral and all the crazy stuff that um maybe they're not ready to actually think about and put pen to paper on yet.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I, you know, it makes sense hearing you talk about it in that way.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, coming into our later chapters, I don't want to say last chapter, that sounds awful, but later chapters, right?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there can be clients can show some avoidance.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: For some, it's motivating, right?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I mentioned earlier.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then for some, it really does elicit a lot of avoidance um there.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think for for me, at least when I'm working with with clients, couples actually are actually the more challenging one when there is avoidance on one or both sides because you this is really a process.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I know much of the financial planning process, ideally, it's great to have both partners participate.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, for this, like this is a time, like this is an area where we need like both partners to be participating in.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so when one is avoidant or shutting down, and understandably so, it just makes some of that a lot more, a lot more difficult, a lot more difficult when you're working with couples and there is a more challenging one, avoidant one.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're not avoidant, maybe they're just kind of challenging.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're not avoidant.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um what are some ways that you kind of coach your couples through how to come together?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Especially, and I'm just thinking like maybe it's not avoidant, maybe they're not aligned um with what they want, with their wishes.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the strategies that you kind of talk them through or help coach them through?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and that is sometimes, you know, especially I run into this with um second marriages a lot of the time, is that they have different family or children or other people.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so their their estate planning goals aren't necessarily going to be aligned, but it's really kind of tough for them to say, well, you know, I don't want to leave money to your children, or I don't want to leave as much to you, because I want to benefit my family and my children or send things that are important back to my family.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so those are those are some challenging things too.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, I like to actually talk to them individually about kind of let them just speak openly with what the dynamics are and really understand that.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: So typically I'll try to find a way to talk to each of them individually and understand what their goals are.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes at the end of the day, their goals end up being aligned, but what happens in the meeting is they're not willing to communicate that because they don't know how the other one will receive that information.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, I recently had a meeting where um and we have this conversation too, when somebody receives a big inheritance or something comes in that really is their money, but then that they're making decisions together about it.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we'll also separate that conversation too and and talk about what our wishes or goals are with that money.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: So some of those conversations, I like to just really get a good understanding and give them space to really just open up with me.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And build that trust with me about what do you actually want?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then I can kind of sometimes see that, okay, you actually are saying the same things or um you have some commonalities, or this is how we can potentially document everything that you care about and your wishes.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is how we can structure it so that we can make sure that we're handling that appropriately.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, maybe we need to talk about some mental accounting.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: So segregating some money and then having a specific goal or purpose for it, but then having, you know, community assets for your marriage or making sure that both of you are taken care of, or making sure that you both understand what happens if one of you passes and you do make these decisions in your state plan to leave all your money to your kids, what happens to your spouse?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes it does make sense to kind of separate and have those conversations.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have better knowledge of really what all the cards are on the table, that when we can come back together and talk together, I can kind of repeat a little bit of what I'm hearing and then have them kind of both see from a planning scenario what we're recommending based on what we're hearing from each of them and what we understand from each of them.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's worked for me before when we've had some touchy subjects.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, other ones being sometimes people just from a relationship perspective, um, this can be who they want to name for trustees, who they want to name for guardians.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, ultimately, if they need to make some decisions together about they've got minor children and they need to come together, they have to make a decision together about who's going to be the guardian of the children.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's no splitting the baby, right?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So um there's this need to go and have a conversation.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so typically what I'll recommend at that point is to step away from their house, step away from the kids, step away from the responsibilities that are all talking to them, all the clutter in their home, step away and have a date night and sit down and have that be the goal and that be the outcome is to have a good meal or a cup of coffee, glass of wine, sit and talk about, um, lay all the cards on the table of who are all the potential guardians that you might consider for your children, what are all the pros and cons of those decisions?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel about each of those potential people and um have a goal of kind of coming back together for that?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes they're not ready to visit that in a meeting with me, or they're only talking about it when they're exhausted at the end of an evening after putting kids to bed, or um, you know, when they've got kids that are like say needing something constantly and they want a snack and all of that's really tough to have that conversation.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes that can just be solved by sending them away to go have that conversation and just give them some accountability of having a deadline and having a meeting back with me to talk about it, or that they just know that I'm I'm kind of wanting an answer for that to help guide them a little bit further on their state planning documents.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I just try to be supportive to them in that.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: So many good things that you just shared there.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: The separation of partners, I have also found to be helpful for, you know, certain conversations or points.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, as you said, like it helps you as the practitioner just gain a better insight into what's really going on when their defenses are not up.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when couples are in the room together and they're talking about things that are already maybe emotionally charged, but then there's like this uncertainty piece.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not uncommon for those defenses to that guard to come up.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that's difficult to manage, uh, you know, certainly for the couple, but also for the planner as well.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that can be just a wonderful approach uh to being able to uncover some of the stuff that's below the waters and then, you know, create, you know, a better path like forward without it resulting in, you know, arguing or clashing, right?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of there in in front of you or in your office, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you're if you're in person.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the other thing that you talked about with cup with couples and like naming like guardians, you know, I was thinking about just some of my own experiences, both personal, but also uh, you know, in in the clinical sense.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And what's I don't know if it's funny, I don't want to say it's like funny haha, but it's interesting, like funny is that you know, for some couples that are, let's just say maybe there's like a high degree of like relational health.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: You start talking about naming like guardians and things like that, and all of a sudden, like you realize some couples can realize like they're maybe not as much on the same page, or now I really know how I feel or how you feel about my sister, right?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, or where, you know, kind of where that is.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that can be that can be really challenging.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: And your suggestion of like going off and having this conversation while setting a deadline and putting some some parameters in place, you know, I think can be can be really helpful, especially if there is maybe some differences and that there are some strong opinions or reasons, you know, maybe why there.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I don't know about I don't know about you on the planning, and I've actually never asked you this.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I come from the approach, at least with this, that I think it's okay to when we're talking about guardians and maybe some other aspects um, you know, there within the will or the estate planning, that I think it's okay.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to look at it as like a forever timeline.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's okay to say, hey, in three to five years, when the kids start elementary school or when they transition to like high school, let's revisit this conversation around guardianship, maybe specifically, and let's think about is this the same person or the same people that we want?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or do we want to change that?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Would it be in our kids' best interest?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I come kind of from that standpoint of like, we don't have to make a forever decision here.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, do you find that?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know, what are your thoughts on that?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do you find that couples kind of think people think that this is a forever decision?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think it's okay to kind of think more like in shorter chunks on that?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I I do like to talk about their life in that way too, to say, well, you know, your daughter's 13 when she's 18, we might want to redo your documents because she might want you might want her to be the person that makes your healthcare decisions if you pass or if you're, you know, have a medical event, that type of thing.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we do talk about these kind of different spans of time.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I do think that is helpful to um think about.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I probably need to do that a little bit more.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: But the other thing is I also find that some of these conversations also are a reason that I do send somebody to financial therapy because there is a limit to how much we can think through or talk through some of these relationship issues and and other things.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there are there is an element of kind of people sometimes need to go take some time and work through some of these types of conversations and decisions in a way where, you know, if they're kind of there and they're kind of ready to make a decision, I can kind of guide them through and then help them through the accountability of it.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of deeper uh issues that they need to talk through, or this is gonna bring up a lot of bigger issues.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is beyond what um ultimately a planner can and should handle.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, same thing with an estate planning attorney, they're not therapists and they can't help a client make a decision.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes clients will say, Well, what would you do?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, who would you name?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know the kids or the people or the trustee, or are they gonna be good with money?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Are they is your executor and your trustee gonna live out your wishes?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like these are really big decisions.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so, one, they can't divert to us generally.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: We can hear them and kind of repeat back what we're hearing.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um they ultimately need to make these decisions in order to move through with their estate planning documents.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes it does require them to, you know, seek financial therapy or traditional therapy to help work through or couples therapy to work through some of these types of questions and issues that are coming up that are preventing them from making this one decision because that will happen with the state planning documents.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, decision made, decision made, decision made, decision made.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like we gotta like really make this decision.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I bring up guardianship because that's a that's a really important and touchy subject, right?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's something that they might need to pause and spend a little bit more time working through to it.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would agree.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're preaching to the choir.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all about, you know, knowing kind of where you're laying and your like, you know, competence lies in your skill set.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's falling outside of that, the best thing that you can do is, you know, for yourself and the client is to connect them with a specialist.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: So advisors, you know, you don't have to be everything for your clients.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's okay to, you know, to not be.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it's probably really good to not be everything for your clients, right?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And to have other people in your, you know, on well, you wouldn't want other people on your tool belt, but you know, in your box of like resources, um, you know, to be able, to be able to send to.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, Emily, we've talked about lots of really, really great things.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: For if you had like a younger maybe advisor, maybe not a younger advisor, just another advisor that's like, hey, I really hear everything that you're saying.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I have a desire maybe to kind of do a little bit more, spend a little bit more time in this area with my clients.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: What are a few things that you would, you know, maybe not coach them on, but maybe suggest to them what are some of those tips that you've kind of learned along the way that you would pass on to other advisors wanting to do more in this area?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, an estate planning process, especially for either a younger advisor or less experienced or just less interest in spending time in estate planning, um, it's really just finding some good people or resources.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: So either finding if your your base is more local.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have clients that are coming to you in person, um finding a good estate planning attorney that you trust that you could send clients to and just help get them to the right person to get scheduled.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that's just the big hurdle.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's just establishing a relationship and funneling people to that relationship, funneling people to that resource.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And for people who aren't ready to maybe talk through all of the considerations, um, maybe you haven't had to provide executor support to your clients, or you haven't experienced personally going through what happens after somebody passes, what happens with their stuff, what happens with their house, what happens with their body, what happens with their arrangements, you know, if they haven't had to deal with all of that, um, it's a lot to try to memorize if you haven't experienced it.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are some great workbooks that are out there, and we link some of those to our clients too, where um if it's really just saying go to the state planning attorney, get the documents done, and then here's a workbook to work through uh your legacy and what your wishes are and where to document it.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so at a minimum, that is then covering some of those beyond the documents type of conversations where maybe you aren't giving them the conversation starters or talking through these different issues or um remembering or keeping a checklist with them on it, but you're giving them a resource that's really helpful.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's a really good place to start.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's a couple books on Amazon that I like.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're super easy, not expensive.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can just buy them for your client or send the link.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then so if a client really has documents and a safe and their attorney can kind of tell them how to retitle things and kind of a legacy planner book to maybe work through, they're pretty good shape.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's a really good minimal kind of place to start if you want to do more than just uh set up beneficiaries and make sure they have documents done.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love, I love all of that, guiding them kind of to that, you know, in a more thoughtful way.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Here are some external resources, some books, workbooks.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: I love a good workbook.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my myself, I don't know, I'm just a weirdo, I guess.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but the art of like kind of going through like all of that feels very therapeutic for myself.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, directing and I love the idea of gifting clients.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that again, going back to that, you don't have to be everything for your clients.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a resource you can connect them to to help them to be able to do and take a more thoughtful, maybe approach around that.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Emily, I so enjoy just kind of sitting and chatting with you.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: I always learn from you anytime you and I jump on a call.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm always just kind of learning from you around the financial planning side of things.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else, you know, that we haven't talked about or that I haven't asked you that you feel like is really important for advisors to keep in mind when it comes to estate planning?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and this one I think is harder than anything we've talked about so far.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Talking to parents.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so providing some support and resources for people to go and talk to their parents about their estate plan.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's a whole reason for therapy, potentially.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, personally, I I've really struggled with going back and asking my mom, you know, questions about what she wants for her end of life care.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, mom, where do you want to be buried?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to be cremated?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you want to be?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it just feels it feels very strange going and asking your parents about um assets or wishes or whatever that is.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is something I do coach my clients on those conversations.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's also something that might require some additional support through financial therapy or um some additional support just in a book, like Mom and Dad, We Need to Talk is a pretty good book that helps with that conversation.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: So when I think about estate planning, you know, get your own ducks in a row, but also as you're moving through and understanding a little bit more about the importance, it's then, all right, now we got to talk to the other generations all around me about also um getting all this structure in place for them as well and understanding what all that looks like.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of an additional area of support that I think financial planners can help their clients through so that it creates ease for them um in the future, but also gets one more household in better shape for you know that eventual um it's not an if we die, it's when.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's when when we die.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's gonna happen and we've got to face it and um you know put some pen to paper about what we want to happen at that point.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a I appreciate you mentioning that.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the perspective kind of that I'd take in working from like a you know more systemic place, like you're right, like this isn't there is the practitioner client right aspect of the work that we're doing, but then there are other like influences too.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if we can help our clients, you know, uh in time, obviously not all at once, but start to, you know, navigate and get outside of that.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, just the value there is it's just it's powerful, it's transformative.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it's something that, you know, will last generations, right?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: Having all of this kind of set up and doing and having these conversations.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I appreciate you sharing kind of that lasting piece of not only figuring out kind of your clients, but helping them connect to kind of their parents and you know, potentially if they're if they have like adult children, then starting, you know, kind of that conversation there with them.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we might have to do another conversation just on that.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: On that one too.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I love it.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Emily, thank you so much for coming on.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, again to reiterate, find everything that you put out so valuable.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, why don't you share maybe a little bit?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: I know where to find you, but maybe you can connect uh our audience listeners on where they can find you, where they can connect with you.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, best place to find me typically is on LinkedIn, which is actually where I met Ashley.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I put out a lot of content, just short tips and stories about um things that are part of your estate plan or your tax plan or insurance or investments.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I provide a lot of resources and ideas out there.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can connect with me on LinkedIn.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to uh join with you on there.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then on our website, archerim.com, we also have a blog where we share some additional longer format ideas and tools that are helpful to our clients.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing all that, Emily.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you soon.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
• 38:48
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• 38:53
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• 38:59
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• 39:07
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• 39:20
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• 39:24
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