Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Freeway Killer(s) – Cold Cases Cracked by DNA

Transcript

Freeway Killer(s) – Cold Cases Cracked by DNA · PNW Haunts & Homicides

0:01
Speaker 1: Of course, we can't forget that keeping a scorecard of
0:03
Speaker 1: his victims is how Kraft got his Moniker. There were
0:07
Speaker 1: reportedly six Portland entries. One of them was Portland. Denver.
0:13
Speaker 1: Michael was born September eighth of nineteen sixty two, and
0:17
Speaker 1: you guessed it Denver. At the time of his death,
0:21
Speaker 1: he just graduated from Golden High School and planned to
0:24
Speaker 1: enroll in community college at Denver's Red Rocks campus, but
0:29
Speaker 1: he was on a brief detour hitchhiking to Alaska. WHOA, Hi, Cassie,
0:39
Speaker 1: Hi Caitlin, Hi creepy people, HELLOUO, Hi lady.
0:45
Speaker 2: Oh okay, don't start now, come on, you wanted to
0:49
Speaker 2: sit here again? We're likely excited to do the show again.
0:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, not even a full minute in and she's she's
0:55
Speaker 1: starting with us. This is PNW Hans and Hama asides,
1:00
Speaker 1: where we chat about true crime, the pair, and normal
1:04
Speaker 1: and all things spooky in the Pacific Northwest in the PNW.
1:09
Speaker 2: If you're nict if you're nice, if you're nasty. We
1:13
Speaker 2: also do a little tarot reading at the end of
1:15
Speaker 2: every episode for a little deeper insight into our topic.
1:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, thrown a few dog grumbles for good measure. All right, well,
1:23
Speaker 1: I don't think we have any business other than as
1:26
Speaker 1: you're listening to this episode, you've probably already listened to
1:30
Speaker 1: our first summertime feed drop. We're going to drop them
1:35
Speaker 1: in periodically, but obviously this week we're by.
1:39
Speaker 2: We're taking a break, we swear.
1:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we're really bad at it, but we're trying.
1:45
Speaker 2: Uh So, this is a fresh one. It's very fresh, fresh,
1:51
Speaker 2: fresh off the hot press, hot off the press, Yeah,
1:54
Speaker 2: fresh off the oven, fresh off of the oven, hot
1:57
Speaker 2: off the press. What is it freshly baked? I don't know,
2:00
Speaker 2: hot off the griddle. Yeah. Well, I'm going to open
2:02
Speaker 2: my booze because I know you're going to fuck up
2:04
Speaker 2: my life. Oh yeah, I've already opened fine. So also,
2:09
Speaker 2: sorry if my voice is like so sensual that you
2:13
Speaker 2: can't listen to this episode. I mean, good thing. I'm
2:17
Speaker 2: the one doing most of the talking this time. Huh yeah,
2:20
Speaker 2: it's a little deep. It's better than it was when
2:22
Speaker 2: I woke up. It was really scary when I woke
2:24
Speaker 2: up this morning.
2:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like hello, because you sounded like, I
2:29
Speaker 1: don't know, like we were using the roadcaster to alter
2:32
Speaker 1: your voice.
2:32
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it was that scary? Yeah, So anyway, that's
2:37
Speaker 2: my drama, all right.
2:40
Speaker 1: Parrybond Nano Labs is back in the news, as is
2:44
Speaker 1: a previously unidentified murder victim, Larry Eugene Parks, along with
2:50
Speaker 1: his suspected killer, Randy Kraft aka the Scorecard Killer.
2:56
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I have not heard this one.
3:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have not, in truth covered Randy Craft. So
3:07
Speaker 1: we're kind of going to today a little bit. Okay,
3:11
Speaker 1: I mean, actually quite a bit. I shouldn't say a
3:13
Speaker 1: little bit. I've spent so much time reading about Randy Craft.
3:18
Speaker 1: I'm really sick of him actually, But here we go.
3:24
Speaker 1: The alias was so coined due to the coded list
3:28
Speaker 1: believed to represent the sixty some victims he is believed
3:34
Speaker 1: likely to have masked. Sixty Yes, Sam, that's quite a bit,
3:41
Speaker 1: arguably sixty plus too many.
3:44
Speaker 2: I would say.
3:46
Speaker 1: His victims, mostly young men, particularly Marines, were tortured, raped,
3:52
Speaker 1: and murdered before he dumped their bodies, typically on a roadside,
3:57
Speaker 1: near an off ramp or another public place.
4:02
Speaker 2: Shit, dude, Marines too, that's fucked. Yeah. Well, and we'll
4:07
Speaker 2: touch on a little bit.
4:10
Speaker 1: In some ways, they seem like almost unlikely victims because
4:15
Speaker 1: you think those are going to be people that can typically,
4:19
Speaker 1: you know, defend themselves, but they have to have the
4:22
Speaker 1: wherewithal to be able to do that.
4:24
Speaker 2: I was thinking, there's got to be something going on
4:27
Speaker 2: because like, those are tough, tough.
4:29
Speaker 1: People, so and I just think, you know, when you
4:32
Speaker 1: catch people and their guard is down, and you know,
4:36
Speaker 1: there are other factors at play in this case, but
4:39
Speaker 1: we'll get to that. At the time of his conviction,
4:43
Speaker 1: Kraft was believed to be the most prolific serial killer
4:46
Speaker 1: in the US.
4:47
Speaker 2: To that point. He's since been.
4:50
Speaker 1: Entirely eclipsed by absolute monsters like Gary Ridgeway. He's the
4:55
Speaker 1: Green River Killer. For anyone who's not keeping up.
4:58
Speaker 2: Thank you.
5:00
Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't know, yeah, well, and sometimes you hear
5:03
Speaker 1: the name and you know, but then you have to
5:05
Speaker 1: try to think of like the alias, and yeah, it
5:08
Speaker 1: can be a lot. And Samuel Little, who remained active
5:13
Speaker 1: for multiple decades.
5:16
Speaker 2: Have we talked about him? We have not.
5:18
Speaker 1: Okay, he actually has killed in so many states and
5:22
Speaker 1: the number of his victims is so incredibly massive.
5:27
Speaker 2: It's it's a lot. It would be a lot.
5:32
Speaker 1: I mean, you could do a whole podcast series about him,
5:35
Speaker 1: for sure.
5:36
Speaker 2: For sure. The name sounded familiar, but yeah, yeah, you're like,
5:40
Speaker 2: but I don't want to look into that any further. No,
5:43
Speaker 2: thank you. Yeah.
5:45
Speaker 1: Larry Parks was finally identified nearly forty five years after
5:50
Speaker 1: his murder this April. That was like a month ago,
5:55
Speaker 1: last month. Yep, thanks to genetic genial Oh shit. Another
6:02
Speaker 1: victim believed to have perished at the hands of Craft
6:05
Speaker 1: was identified after even longer, just shy of five full decades. Wow,
6:12
Speaker 1: so this identification actually came before the one that we're
6:18
Speaker 1: talking about, kind of primarily today. Michael Ray Schlicht, an
6:23
Speaker 1: Iowa native, was finally positively identified, also using genetic genealogy,
6:30
Speaker 1: though it appears like authorities worked with a different forensic
6:34
Speaker 1: laboratory in that case, just seventeen years old at the
6:39
Speaker 1: time of his death. His body was discovered and estimated
6:42
Speaker 1: three to five days after his death, which was officially
6:46
Speaker 1: ruled accidental, likely owing to the alcohol and diazepam found
6:51
Speaker 1: in his system.
6:53
Speaker 2: Hmm, okay.
6:54
Speaker 1: H If Michael truly was a victim of Craft, he'd
6:59
Speaker 1: been killed years prior to Larry. But before Larry there
7:04
Speaker 1: was Michael. There were enough similarities in the cases of
7:08
Speaker 1: Larry Eugene Parks and Michael Sean o'fallen that authorities suspected
7:13
Speaker 1: the crimes were somehow related. During Craft's trial and sentencing,
7:18
Speaker 1: evidence from the murder investigations of both O'Fallon and Parks,
7:22
Speaker 1: then a Doe victim, was transferred to the Orange County
7:26
Speaker 1: District Attorney's office to be used in court. The evidence
7:30
Speaker 1: remained in Orange County until twenty twenty four. Craft was
7:34
Speaker 1: ultimately convicted of sixteen murders in California, but it's possible
7:39
Speaker 1: that he's guilty of dozens more that occurred near the
7:41
Speaker 1: West Coast, as well as additional states like Michigan and Iowa.
7:46
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's like far Yeah, that was the dumbest
7:49
Speaker 2: thing I've ever said. That's like really far right, really far.
7:53
Speaker 2: But it is like when you're talking about murder, I
7:55
Speaker 2: feel like it is.
7:56
Speaker 1: Yeah. I feel like what you see more often than
7:59
Speaker 1: not is the past of you know, they're caught because
8:03
Speaker 1: they work within a set area, and that's how some
8:07
Speaker 1: of these guys are able to get away with so
8:09
Speaker 1: much for so long, because they don't always operate in
8:13
Speaker 1: the same area.
8:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't like that. I prefer my murders to be.
8:19
Speaker 1: What's the worst, like regional local where you know what's
8:22
Speaker 1: going to happen, predict predictable for my murders, predictable, predictable, Yeah, unpredictable.
8:28
Speaker 2: It's fucking scary. No, it is, It absolutely is. It
8:31
Speaker 2: absolutely is.
8:33
Speaker 1: I think there's part of this then that you're going
8:36
Speaker 1: to really dislike. But the good news is it's it's
8:39
Speaker 1: all over. A lot of this was over before either
8:42
Speaker 1: of us was born. That has a lot to do
8:45
Speaker 1: with why I think it's so fascinating and it's so
8:49
Speaker 1: good to see because it's like, these are cases that
8:55
Speaker 1: there are people in their families that like they hadn't
8:58
Speaker 1: been born yet and their families still had no idea
9:02
Speaker 1: what had happened to them. So, I mean, it's just
9:06
Speaker 1: the gravity of that is it's really wild. In Craft's
9:12
Speaker 1: eventual trial, the evidence presented and the murder of seventeen
9:15
Speaker 1: year old Michael Sean O'Fallon was devastating to the defense.
9:21
Speaker 1: In July of nineteen eighty, Michael's brutalized body had been
9:24
Speaker 1: bound alongside an I five entrance ramp in Jefferson, Oregon,
9:30
Speaker 1: which is a place that really is best triangulated in
9:33
Speaker 1: relation to nearby Woodburn, an area.
9:36
Speaker 2: Just south of Salem. Thank you.
9:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're from Oregon. And I was like, Jefferson, is
9:43
Speaker 1: I think a place I know?
9:46
Speaker 2: Woodburn?
9:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like a hamlet, I would say probably,
9:50
Speaker 1: I mean, especially back then, it might be. It might
9:52
Speaker 1: be a little bit more grown now. But to my knowledge,
9:55
Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot to see out there, but
9:59
Speaker 1: hopefully no. Its proximity to our states capital is helpful
10:02
Speaker 1: to anyone that's curious. Michael's own shoelaces had been used
10:07
Speaker 1: to hogtie him, and his body had been sexually mutilated,
10:12
Speaker 1: both of these details matching up to craft'smo as established
10:16
Speaker 1: by victims in the Orange County area. Drugs found in
10:19
Speaker 1: Michael's system were also a match to those later found
10:23
Speaker 1: in Craft's car. So that's the part that I said
10:27
Speaker 1: we would get back to, is he's.
10:29
Speaker 2: One of those that is.
10:31
Speaker 1: Craft was known definitely to pick up hitch hikers, and
10:35
Speaker 1: he was known for offering them drugs alcohol, so incapacitating them,
10:42
Speaker 1: sometimes without their knowledge because that beer may not just
10:45
Speaker 1: be a beer.
10:46
Speaker 2: Ough, Yeah, hitchhiking, Like I get it.
10:50
Speaker 1: It was the eighties, Like some of these occurred in
10:53
Speaker 1: the seventies, and so that I think in the broader
10:57
Speaker 1: public knowledge, hitchhiking still was far more acceptable at that point,
11:03
Speaker 1: and people thought it was safe to a degree.
11:05
Speaker 2: It s actually you need to ride somewhere and somewhere
11:07
Speaker 2: on their way, Like yeah, it makes sense, yeah, but
11:12
Speaker 2: people have to fuck it up for everyone else pretty much.
11:16
Speaker 1: Arguably the most important piece of evidence was a camera
11:19
Speaker 1: the victim had been carrying that was found in Craft's
11:23
Speaker 1: garage after his arrest on May fourteenth, nineteen eighty three.
11:29
Speaker 1: I had to think about it for a second, and
11:31
Speaker 1: then some of my source material went on to explain,
11:34
Speaker 1: but I was like, how cameras aren't necessary. There's got
11:37
Speaker 1: to be dozens, hundreds, thousands of people that own the
11:41
Speaker 1: same model, So like, how did they know?
11:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to ask if you knew, like
11:45
Speaker 2: what kind of camera it was. I really don't know
11:48
Speaker 2: what kind of camera.
11:49
Speaker 1: But even though people weren't taking a lot of selfies
11:54
Speaker 1: back in the eighties, the camera contained pictures taken in Canada,
12:00
Speaker 1: which o'fallen had just recently passed through. I thought, oh, well,
12:04
Speaker 1: maybe they found a bunch of pictures of him on it,
12:07
Speaker 1: so they knew it was his, which was kind of
12:10
Speaker 1: a dumb theory, I feel like now in hindsight, because
12:13
Speaker 1: people again not taking a lot of selfies. But you know,
12:17
Speaker 1: I'm looking at it through my lens.
12:19
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean, at least there weren't like a bunch
12:21
Speaker 2: of dick pics on it. Well, we don't really know.
12:24
Speaker 1: I could have been Canadian dicks. Michael's camera had his
12:29
Speaker 1: mother's initials MJO and a decal on it, which was
12:34
Speaker 1: identified in court by both his mother and brother. In fact,
12:38
Speaker 1: Michael's brother even presented his own matching decal to the
12:43
Speaker 1: courtroom for confirmation during his testimony.
12:47
Speaker 2: Wow, so they were pretty fucking sure. Yeah, It's like,
12:50
Speaker 2: how how did they know that that camera like needed
12:53
Speaker 2: to be marked? Like, I know, that's it. It's probably
12:56
Speaker 2: an expensive item that Yeah.
12:59
Speaker 1: Well, and they they just you know, typically once they're
13:02
Speaker 1: at the point of executing a search warrant and they
13:06
Speaker 1: had confirmed the identity of Michael O'Fallon, they have an
13:11
Speaker 1: awareness based on information given to them by the family
13:16
Speaker 1: about what did he have in his possession, So you know,
13:21
Speaker 1: something like that might be pretty easily, pretty readily identified.
13:28
Speaker 2: So like, thank goodness, they get that to the camera
13:31
Speaker 2: because that's undeniable proof. Oh it really is. Yeah. I
13:35
Speaker 2: was like, damn, okay, we all need to start marking
13:37
Speaker 2: our shit, you guys.
13:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, for real, of course we can't forget that. Keeping
13:43
Speaker 1: a scorecard of his victims is how Kraft got his moniker,
13:47
Speaker 1: which he still adamantly denies. There were reportedly six Portland entries.
13:55
Speaker 1: One of them was Portland Denver. Michael was born September
14:00
Speaker 1: eighth of nineteen sixty two, and you guessed it Denver.
14:04
Speaker 1: At the time of his death, he just graduated from
14:07
Speaker 1: Golden High School and planned to enroll in community college
14:11
Speaker 1: at Denver's Red Rocks campus, but he was on a
14:14
Speaker 1: brief detour hitchhiking to Alaska. WHOA, Yeah, So I don't
14:22
Speaker 1: know why exactly. It's honestly, it's unclear. I've not been
14:26
Speaker 1: able to track down any information from the family confirming
14:29
Speaker 1: exactly why adventure.
14:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
14:32
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe, you know, he had a camera, so
14:34
Speaker 1: maybe he just really wanted to go there to be
14:37
Speaker 1: able to, you know, take the summer and do like
14:39
Speaker 1: nature photography.
14:41
Speaker 2: Not sure.
14:42
Speaker 1: Wow, it's certainly a beautiful place to visit, but generally
14:46
Speaker 1: I just assumed that young men in this era in particular,
14:50
Speaker 1: would be going there to do the exact same thing
14:53
Speaker 1: that my dad and my uncles did back then.
14:56
Speaker 2: So I was like, Okay, he's obviously going up there.
14:59
Speaker 1: He's trying his hand and at making some money on
15:01
Speaker 1: a boat headed out on a commercial fishing expedition.
15:04
Speaker 2: Right.
15:05
Speaker 1: No, that is literally just an assumption that I made
15:08
Speaker 1: based on my own Uh.
15:11
Speaker 2: I mean, he seems pretty adventurous. Maybe that was like
15:14
Speaker 2: a thought someday he could do that.
15:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, who knows. I could have been both
15:19
Speaker 1: either or neither. But poor Larry, no one would know
15:23
Speaker 1: his identity for decades, not until this very year. He
15:27
Speaker 1: was a thirty year old Vietnam War veteran who had
15:30
Speaker 1: lost contact with his family at some point in the
15:33
Speaker 1: year prior to his murder. According to his family, his
15:37
Speaker 1: last known location was Pensacola, Florida. Michael O'Fallon, whose body
15:42
Speaker 1: was discovered near Exit two forty two to Talbot Road
15:45
Speaker 1: in Jefferson off I five within Marion County, would be
15:50
Speaker 1: followed just one day later by the discovery of another
15:54
Speaker 1: Larry Eugene Parks. On May fourteenth, nineteen eighty three, a
15:59
Speaker 1: call Ffornia Highway Patrol officer conducted a traffic stop, leading
16:03
Speaker 1: to the arrest of Randy Craft. At the time, there
16:07
Speaker 1: was another male occupant in Randy's vehicle. Uh oh uh
16:12
Speaker 1: oh is correct, a deceased victim later identified as Terry
16:17
Speaker 1: Lee Gambrel.
16:18
Speaker 2: He had a dead person in his car when he
16:21
Speaker 2: died over. Sure did those freaking traffic stops, man, they'll
16:25
Speaker 2: get you. Yeah, they really do every time. I can't
16:29
Speaker 2: believe he had a fucking body in his car.
16:31
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he was arranged in the front seat with
16:34
Speaker 1: multiple empty long necks and an open bottle of larazapam
16:39
Speaker 1: at his feet.
16:40
Speaker 2: So just beer bottles rattling around, and it's like you're
16:43
Speaker 2: not even trying to like hide anything at all, not really.
16:47
Speaker 1: I mean, he just didn't think he was gonna get
16:49
Speaker 1: stopped by what's highway patrol?
16:52
Speaker 2: What's this marzipan stuff? Larazapam?
16:55
Speaker 1: Usually I think they used larazapam to treat like anxiety,
17:00
Speaker 1: so it's essentially like a sedative.
17:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it was something that would like
17:03
Speaker 2: make you sleepy, but it wasn't exactly sure what it was.
17:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, when the rest of the vehicle was searched, police
17:10
Speaker 1: located what they described as a scorecard. It consisted of
17:15
Speaker 1: dozens of neatly printed monikers that have long been suspected
17:21
Speaker 1: to reference his victims. Obviously, like I said, he's denied
17:25
Speaker 1: this vehemently.
17:27
Speaker 2: Of course.
17:29
Speaker 1: They would also uncover over fifty photos that depicted young
17:33
Speaker 1: men in pornographic poses, most appearing to be asleep, perhaps
17:39
Speaker 1: incapacitated by intoxication, or worse yet, there are a number
17:44
Speaker 1: of them that they suspect the victims are actually dead
17:47
Speaker 1: in the photos. So my face is just doing the
17:53
Speaker 1: talking for me. Yep, that's about right. The heinous lore
17:57
Speaker 1: surrounding Randy Craft has led many to conjure ghoulish images
18:02
Speaker 1: of a bizarre boogeyman type character. This feels like a
18:06
Speaker 1: pretty good time to remind you, though, remind everyone that
18:10
Speaker 1: he really is just a sad excuse of a man.
18:14
Speaker 1: Though it's certainly fair to say that he's a particularly
18:17
Speaker 1: sadistic one. Take it from retired homicide detective of the
18:22
Speaker 1: Orange County Sheriff's Department, Dan Salsado, who interviewed him back
18:28
Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. He said, it's weird when you look
18:32
Speaker 1: at him. There's nothing memorable. Frankly, I love that assessment
18:38
Speaker 1: for Randy, who is frequently also described as one of
18:43
Speaker 1: the most heinous serial killers in US history, or the
18:48
Speaker 1: embodiment of evil who. Salsato had already met the killer,
18:55
Speaker 1: dating back to his time prior to retirement, when he
18:59
Speaker 1: worked as a jail deputy in Orange County. He'd read
19:03
Speaker 1: the male inbound to the inmate and thought, really, that's
19:06
Speaker 1: the scorecard killer. He's completely unamused, truly utterly nonplussed.
19:15
Speaker 2: I mean, the guy had to like freaking drug people
19:17
Speaker 2: to feel to murder them, so he's obviously not like
19:19
Speaker 2: that special. No, I mean it's not in terms of
19:24
Speaker 2: his stature.
19:25
Speaker 1: There's nothing that's like particularly intimidating about him, which actually
19:29
Speaker 1: I think is what gave him the advantage with a
19:33
Speaker 1: lot of these men.
19:34
Speaker 2: Unfortunately. Yeah, yeah, I could see that.
19:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't feel threatened by somebody who doesn't feel
19:40
Speaker 1: like a physical match for you. I wonder what that's like.
19:45
Speaker 1: When the pair sat down in twenty twelve, Sosato was
19:49
Speaker 1: well aware that the man had remained on death row
19:52
Speaker 1: at San Quentin in relative silence, essentially running down the clock.
19:57
Speaker 1: Their conversation was roughly thirty minutes and ultimately provided no
20:01
Speaker 1: new leads or insight. Honestly, it's impressive that he even
20:05
Speaker 1: got him to talk for the thirty minutes. Wow, not
20:08
Speaker 1: a long conversation, but other attempts have been far less successful.
20:15
Speaker 1: Craft had grumbled about being railroaded before wishing cancer on
20:19
Speaker 1: the lead prosecutor and investigator in his case. Jesus, you're
20:24
Speaker 1: gonna love this, though in reply, Salsato offered an update
20:28
Speaker 1: simply that they were both doing very well and living
20:31
Speaker 1: fulfilled lives.
20:32
Speaker 2: Was good.
20:33
Speaker 1: It was like snap. Salsato is convinced. Quote, there are
20:38
Speaker 1: some Craft related killings that are not solved, though Craft
20:42
Speaker 1: has never admitted to any of the killings, including the
20:46
Speaker 1: body of the deceased marine found in his car at
20:49
Speaker 1: the time of his arrest.
20:51
Speaker 2: I'm holding that for a friend. M hm, what it's
20:55
Speaker 2: in your car? Yeah no.
20:57
Speaker 1: He's always claimed that that was like either some sort
21:00
Speaker 1: of an accident or yeah no, I mean he didn't
21:05
Speaker 1: have anything to do with it, of course, of course not.
21:08
Speaker 1: The nineteen seventies and eighties were a dangerous time, particularly
21:12
Speaker 1: for young hitchhikers, with multiple serial killers active throughout the country,
21:18
Speaker 1: but in southern California alone, Randy Craft, William Bonnan, and
21:24
Speaker 1: Patrick Kearney's horrific reigns overlapped for a brief period, and
21:29
Speaker 1: that's not a complete list.
21:31
Speaker 2: I don't want any overlap with any of that. Yeah,
21:34
Speaker 2: thank you.
21:35
Speaker 1: And the reason why I'm only really talking about these
21:38
Speaker 1: three when there are certainly other killers that were active
21:42
Speaker 1: in the area at that time, is because at different
21:45
Speaker 1: times all three were conflated and referred to as the
21:50
Speaker 1: Freeway Killer because of similarities in their m oh. Law
21:55
Speaker 1: enforcement thought at one point before any of these guys
21:59
Speaker 1: was actual caught, that they were all the same person,
22:03
Speaker 1: all the same perpetrator.
22:05
Speaker 2: Wow, that would be crazy.
22:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, authorities believed when they caught Kearney in nineteen seventy
22:12
Speaker 1: seven they had their man, and yet crimes against similar
22:16
Speaker 1: victims using the same mo continued. Kearney, who was said
22:20
Speaker 1: to have been bullied in childhood and later surprisingly honorably
22:24
Speaker 1: discharged from the US Air Force following his service, would
22:28
Speaker 1: also be referred to as the trash back Killer owing
22:32
Speaker 1: to his method of disposal of his victims. His case
22:37
Speaker 1: was said to have been the inspiration of a Criminal
22:39
Speaker 1: Minds episode, as well as even being cited as spurring
22:43
Speaker 1: changes to trash disposal practices. Oh, I think in a way,
22:49
Speaker 1: there's a potential for some good there, right, at least
22:52
Speaker 1: if it has to happen, at least something else possibly
22:55
Speaker 1: good comes out of it, right, I mean, let's not
22:59
Speaker 1: lose people in a horrific way and then do nothing
23:02
Speaker 1: to prevent, you know, the exact same thing from happening again.
23:07
Speaker 2: I'm curious what trash disposal practices they changed.
23:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I debated about kind of going into details
23:15
Speaker 1: on that. It was not as interesting as I had anticipated.
23:19
Speaker 1: So if you're curious, I definitely still linked to the
23:25
Speaker 1: information about it in my sources, but.
23:27
Speaker 2: I want to talk about trash damn it. That segment
23:30
Speaker 2: was cut for brevity.
23:34
Speaker 1: Once they captured Bonin in nineteen eighty, they believed that
23:38
Speaker 1: surely the freeway killer would no longer be a byline
23:41
Speaker 1: in the papers. And yet also those hopes proved unfounded.
23:47
Speaker 1: Though he'd spent much of the nineteen seventies in and
23:50
Speaker 1: out of prison for sexually based offenses against other men,
23:54
Speaker 1: he had been paroled in nineteen seventy eight, only to
23:57
Speaker 1: continue with his crimes in an increasely brutal fashion as
24:01
Speaker 1: that decade began to draw to a close. Horrifyingly, he
24:05
Speaker 1: did not act alone.
24:07
Speaker 2: Some of the.
24:08
Speaker 1: Most gruesome crimes, in fact, were committed with the help
24:11
Speaker 1: of multiple accomplices. One died by suicide while awaiting trial,
24:17
Speaker 1: and another was himself killed in prison while serving his time.
24:22
Speaker 2: Wow, seems interesting that they both died.
24:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me tell you, it couldn't have happened to
24:28
Speaker 1: a nicer couple of guys, right.
24:30
Speaker 2: Like, I'm not like upset about it. No, I know interesting.
24:33
Speaker 1: I do think that the one where he died by suicide,
24:38
Speaker 1: I have complicated feelings about that, just because he was
24:41
Speaker 1: never officially convicted, So I don't I mean, I have
24:45
Speaker 1: a hard time kind of grappling with that.
24:48
Speaker 2: But if he truly did kill himself though, so maybe yeah,
24:52
Speaker 2: I mean, who knows. I'm it's you no, no, no,
24:55
Speaker 2: no no no.
24:56
Speaker 1: Bonnin and his cronies proved to be capable of acting
25:00
Speaker 1: on the absolute worst of human impulses. Yet even his
25:05
Speaker 1: arrest did not entirely stem the tide of victims of
25:08
Speaker 1: a similar demographic and background being discovered along or nearby freeways. Then,
25:15
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three, there was the truly stunning arrest
25:19
Speaker 1: of Randy Kraft, and only then did this scenario seem
25:24
Speaker 1: to make more sense. Law enforcement was like, oh shit,
25:28
Speaker 1: this is like three whole ass serial killers, no wonder. Yeah,
25:33
Speaker 1: I mean, but you can't blame them because there really
25:35
Speaker 1: are some alarming similarities in terms of where and how
25:41
Speaker 1: they operated. And until they catch on that, like the
25:45
Speaker 1: crimes are continuing, of course, they are going to hope
25:49
Speaker 1: at least that you know, they've got the right person,
25:53
Speaker 1: and they did. They got multiple right someones they just
25:59
Speaker 1: weren't the only someone's did they all.
26:01
Speaker 2: Like know about each other is that it's all just
26:05
Speaker 2: like a coincidence that they were the same type of
26:07
Speaker 2: murder in the same place. Yeah.
26:09
Speaker 1: I don't think that any of them had an awareness
26:12
Speaker 1: of each other, certainly at the time of actively committing
26:16
Speaker 1: the crimes. But it's kind of in hindsight that you know,
26:21
Speaker 1: you realize they're all operating in the same area.
26:24
Speaker 2: Say they not run into each other? How did they
26:26
Speaker 2: not try to kill each other? Yeah?
26:29
Speaker 1: I mean, unfortunately, California being a rather large state and
26:34
Speaker 1: the I five interstate being you know, long and winding,
26:38
Speaker 1: there's plenty of places to go plenty of people to
26:42
Speaker 1: pick up. Those suspicions have swirled for decades. There's no
26:47
Speaker 1: definitive evidence that either of Bonnan's serial killing colleagues worked
26:51
Speaker 1: with accomplices. So Bonnan actually has verified, convicted accomplices associated
26:59
Speaker 1: with his crimes, whereas Kearney and notably Craft, who is
27:04
Speaker 1: kind of our primary talking point today, they don't have
27:09
Speaker 1: confirmed accomplices. There are suspicions, but Craft is kind of
27:17
Speaker 1: the main character, if you will, Just because the victims
27:23
Speaker 1: that are more recently identified, law enforcement does believe that
27:27
Speaker 1: he may be connected to those cases. There were, however,
27:31
Speaker 1: some compelling details that if spurred speculation in the decades
27:36
Speaker 1: since their arrest. For instance, starting off small, authorities believe
27:42
Speaker 1: that David Hill, a long term partner of Kearney, was
27:45
Speaker 1: perhaps aware of what his bow was up to, or
27:49
Speaker 1: possibly even involved in some of his crimes. It seems
27:53
Speaker 1: like I don't have a lot of information about why
27:56
Speaker 1: they believed that, if it was just because they're like,
27:59
Speaker 1: how could you not know or how could you not
28:01
Speaker 1: be involved? How could you have kept that under wraps unclear?
28:06
Speaker 1: There was DNA and other evidence to suggest that Craft
28:11
Speaker 1: may have worked with a partner or accomplice at some
28:13
Speaker 1: point during his horrific era of crime. During Craft's trial,
28:19
Speaker 1: members of the prosecution admitted privately that they did not
28:23
Speaker 1: charge him with several murders that they were certain he
28:25
Speaker 1: had committed because of facts relating to the cases which
28:30
Speaker 1: indicated more than one perpetrator.
28:33
Speaker 2: Oh so they like were pretty confident someone else is involved.
28:38
Speaker 2: Were they like saving it in case they caught that person.
28:41
Speaker 1: That's one thing that I think people have speculated about.
28:45
Speaker 1: I think in a case where you think there may
28:49
Speaker 1: have been multiple parties involved, it could be more difficult
28:52
Speaker 1: to actually secure the conviction when you only have one
28:56
Speaker 1: of the perpetrators. I think there's a number of reasons
28:58
Speaker 1: why that may have been their decision.
29:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.
29:03
Speaker 1: Jeff Graves, a former romantic interest of Craft, was a
29:07
Speaker 1: strong suspect, but authorities failed to make a case against
29:11
Speaker 1: him prior to his passing in nineteen eighty seven of aids.
29:15
Speaker 1: It was a prosecution's position that Graves may have assisted
29:19
Speaker 1: in several of Craft's murders.
29:22
Speaker 2: He lived with.
29:23
Speaker 1: Craft between nineteen seventy one and nineteen seventy six. Importantly,
29:28
Speaker 1: these were the handful of years when the sixteen confirmed
29:32
Speaker 1: murders occurred. Oh okay, so they're like, you lived with
29:37
Speaker 1: this man for five years, and that's when all sixteen
29:41
Speaker 1: of the murders that he was actually convicted of, when
29:44
Speaker 1: those happened.
29:45
Speaker 2: Mmm, Luksausis Yeah, yeah, I mean I hate to say,
29:51
Speaker 2: like maybe he didn't know, maybe he was totally innocent, but.
29:54
Speaker 1: Well, totally possible hold that thought. Graves was specifically questioned
30:03
Speaker 1: in relation to the cropwell case dating back to nineteen
30:06
Speaker 1: seventy five, and even verified a portion of Craft's statement
30:10
Speaker 1: to police. Graves reportedly told investigators following Craft's arrest in
30:15
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three, quote, I'm really not going to pay
30:19
Speaker 1: for it, you know, seemingly alluding to his at the
30:23
Speaker 1: time terminal diagnosis. Oh wow. He passed on July twenty seventh,
30:29
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, effectively concluding further questioning that authorities had
30:35
Speaker 1: in store.
30:36
Speaker 2: You mean, they didn't ask like a medium to come in.
30:40
Speaker 1: Honestly, the other side, I feel like it's worth considering.
30:44
Speaker 2: I mean, it's funny that he maybe thinks he's not
30:48
Speaker 2: paying for it, but I certainly hope that he is
30:50
Speaker 2: paying for it. Yeah, in his afterlife.
30:53
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, and here's the thing is, at that point
30:58
Speaker 1: in time, really was it really was a death sentence
31:04
Speaker 1: because there was no effective treatment. But there was a
31:07
Speaker 1: four year gap essentially between Randy's arrest and his passing.
31:13
Speaker 1: So it goes to show like how slowly sometimes. I mean,
31:17
Speaker 1: it's it's a slow burn in these cases. But you know,
31:21
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're trying to get the right guy
31:24
Speaker 1: and you are trying to back it up in evidence,
31:27
Speaker 1: I mean, it makes sense.
31:28
Speaker 2: These things take time. Can you imagine being innocent and
31:32
Speaker 2: having to wait that long? Yeah, I mean, and that's
31:36
Speaker 2: something to think about as well. I mean, you know,
31:40
Speaker 2: not that this person was, but I'm just like, we don't,
31:42
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if we'll ever know. Yeah.
31:46
Speaker 1: So the former of Crafts suspected accomplices may not have
31:49
Speaker 1: outlived the speculation a petty criminal. Bob Jackson also underwent
31:55
Speaker 1: much speculation after he was interviewed by a journalist conducting
32:01
Speaker 1: research into Randy Craft's case.
32:04
Speaker 2: Oh shit, I watch out for them journalists. Them journalis
32:08
Speaker 2: maybe asking all kinds of questions. Yeah. His recorded interviews
32:12
Speaker 2: were provided to police, as they should be. Yeah. Yeah.
32:17
Speaker 1: As compelling as the accounts of murder said you have
32:20
Speaker 1: occurred in.
32:21
Speaker 2: Colorado and Wyoming.
32:23
Speaker 1: May have initially seemed they were kind of Ultimately they
32:28
Speaker 1: were reportedly not seriously pursued just due to a lack
32:32
Speaker 1: of evidence. Those detectives that interviewed Jackson were able to
32:36
Speaker 1: convince him to seek mental health treatment. So probably a
32:42
Speaker 1: good thing, a little bit of a bright spot in that.
32:45
Speaker 1: And they're like the fact that you want to be
32:48
Speaker 1: outed as the accomplice and you seemingly like knew this
32:51
Speaker 1: person and had details about possible murders, like huh, you
32:56
Speaker 1: should probably see someone about that friend, Yeah, yeah, yeah, hikes.
33:02
Speaker 1: Jackson also claimed that Kraft's scorecard included only his more
33:07
Speaker 1: memorable murders. In Jackson's opinion, Kraft's total body counts stood
33:12
Speaker 1: closer to one hundred.
33:15
Speaker 2: Oh. I know, it's giving a lot of ick and
33:21
Speaker 2: like the fact that you don't even record some of
33:23
Speaker 2: them because they're like, eh, wasn't memorable, right, It's a
33:26
Speaker 2: fucking human life night.
33:28
Speaker 1: Well, if that's the angle that you want to take,
33:31
Speaker 1: I just feel like that's fallen on deaf ears.
33:34
Speaker 2: No, it's just gross. It is.
33:38
Speaker 1: After decades of silence, the truths buried by monstrous serial
33:42
Speaker 1: killers like Randy Craft, Patrick Kearney, and William Bonnen, along
33:47
Speaker 1: with their confirmed or suspected accomplices, are finally beginning to surface,
33:53
Speaker 1: one name at a time. The identifications of Larry Eugene
33:58
Speaker 1: Parks and Michael Ray are more than breakthroughs in forensic science.
34:04
Speaker 1: They are hard won moments of justice and remembrance. The
34:09
Speaker 1: identification alone should give us hope, even if law enforcement
34:13
Speaker 1: has yet to tie the victims to their killer. As
34:16
Speaker 1: new technology continues to breathe life into cold cases, it
34:20
Speaker 1: also reaffirms just how many questions remain unanswered, So.
34:26
Speaker 2: Many fucking questions.
34:27
Speaker 1: I truthfully, though, really Craft sits on death Row, never
34:33
Speaker 1: having confessed his so called scorecard, still haunting investigators with
34:38
Speaker 1: its cryptic entries and the chilling possibility of many more
34:43
Speaker 1: unnamed victims. But with every advancement in genetic genealogy and
34:48
Speaker 1: continued investigative persistence, the hope remains that those who were
34:53
Speaker 1: once unknown might still realize an opportunity for justice, and
34:58
Speaker 1: that those who left a trail of terror in their
35:02
Speaker 1: wake might yet see retribution.
35:06
Speaker 2: Fucking science, man, fucking science really cool. I think it
35:12
Speaker 2: really is. Yeah, it really is I can't wait for
35:16
Speaker 2: like even the future, future future where it's like not
35:19
Speaker 2: even a question where they can just solve something from
35:21
Speaker 2: like the eighteen hundreds. Yeah, I agree.
35:26
Speaker 1: Just a note about the Oregon State Police Cold Case Unit.
35:30
Speaker 1: The unit has made tangible progress on cases as old
35:35
Speaker 1: as fifty years.
35:37
Speaker 2: That's so cool. It's incredible.
35:40
Speaker 1: And as of the time of publication, so I think
35:45
Speaker 1: this is this article is probably dating back to April,
35:48
Speaker 1: it might be May of this year, twenty twenty five,
35:53
Speaker 1: they are actively investigating thirty seven cold cases.
35:57
Speaker 2: Wow, which actually seems low.
35:59
Speaker 1: But I'm going to give it to them that It's like,
36:01
Speaker 1: the cold cases are intense. There's a lot that can
36:06
Speaker 1: have to go into that unless they get lucky with
36:08
Speaker 1: like a DNA match.
36:10
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I feel like that sounds like
36:11
Speaker 2: a good amount of Yeah, because it's a cold case.
36:14
Speaker 2: It's like there's not obviously it's cold for a reason,
36:17
Speaker 2: like it's not.
36:18
Speaker 1: I do, yeah, I do think that there's just so
36:21
Speaker 1: much work that sometimes has to go into that because
36:24
Speaker 1: I mean, they there's a reason why they haven't been solved, right,
36:27
Speaker 1: So it's like it takes that much more manpower to
36:30
Speaker 1: finally break through.
36:31
Speaker 2: Hey, we've offered our manpower before you. I'll take us
36:34
Speaker 2: podcasters up on helping, right. They're like, no, thing's not interested. Yeah.
36:42
Speaker 1: I do have some other Patreon exclusive content related to
36:47
Speaker 1: this case because I could not help myself, and I
36:51
Speaker 1: do think I have some stuff that I want to
36:55
Speaker 1: share that's actually direct from one of the victim's family members.
37:00
Speaker 1: It's not something they didn't reach out to us specifically,
37:02
Speaker 1: but it's information and statements that they've given to other
37:07
Speaker 1: outlets that I felt like it was a really interesting reflection.
37:11
Speaker 1: It's sort of an opinion piece that came out several
37:14
Speaker 1: years ago. I want to share that in some other
37:17
Speaker 1: titty biddy's.
37:18
Speaker 2: Trash information trash, No, the trash. I was like, how.
37:22
Speaker 1: Dare you critique my Patreon bonus. It's a human literal trash. Okay,
37:27
Speaker 1: I literally want to know the trash. I know she
37:29
Speaker 1: wants to know more about the trash. Well, maybe at
37:31
Speaker 1: the end of our little Patreon bonus, we can pull
37:35
Speaker 1: up that trash article and I can read that to
37:37
Speaker 1: you too.
37:38
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, well should we do some taro about it.
37:42
Speaker 2: Let's do it thinking about mister Crap's victims craps with
37:53
Speaker 2: a K.
37:55
Speaker 1: When I started researching this, it was all because of
38:00
Speaker 1: and then I started looking and I was like, holy shit,
38:04
Speaker 1: there are two other victims that like decades old, have
38:08
Speaker 1: in the last couple of years been identified.
38:11
Speaker 2: That's so cool. It's really cool. And you know, not
38:15
Speaker 2: all of them have been.
38:16
Speaker 1: Definitively tied to Craft or to any other killer, but
38:21
Speaker 1: just the fact that now they're finally identified. Yeah, And
38:25
Speaker 1: you know, I mentioned that it's like there are people
38:28
Speaker 1: that you may have been born and never met this
38:32
Speaker 1: relative of theirs. And there was kind of a short
38:36
Speaker 1: excerpt in one of my articles that I used as
38:40
Speaker 1: source material that talked about they reached out to a
38:43
Speaker 1: family member and they couldn't figure out, well who might
38:47
Speaker 1: be missing, and so then it was the grandparents. They
38:52
Speaker 1: reached out to other family members, and turns out they
38:55
Speaker 1: didn't really have an awareness around somebody who had been
38:59
Speaker 1: out of contact with everybody else in the family for years.
39:02
Speaker 2: Like how would you know?
39:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're thinking, like, especially as grandparents, you're like
39:07
Speaker 1: everybody's busy, you know, we don't hear from this person,
39:10
Speaker 1: but like we also haven't been alerted to any sort
39:14
Speaker 1: of a problem or you know, how would you know.
39:18
Speaker 1: I mean, you'd like to think that families stay closer
39:21
Speaker 1: than that, but sometimes distance and you know, lives are busy.
39:26
Speaker 2: Sometimes you just don't fucking like your family. Also, okay,
39:30
Speaker 2: you don't have to like your family. You know, it's not.
39:33
Speaker 1: And I just say that from the perspective of like
39:35
Speaker 1: you'd like to think that someone would notice, you know
39:38
Speaker 1: what I mean, but like if you're not in touch,
39:40
Speaker 1: of course, it's you know, to a degree, some of
39:43
Speaker 1: this stuff.
39:44
Speaker 2: It's not to like blame anybody, you know.
39:47
Speaker 1: It's it's just it's heartbreaking to see where somebody kind
39:50
Speaker 1: of falls through the cracks.
39:53
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a thought when you were talking about
39:57
Speaker 2: people dying before, like maybe other family members were even
40:00
Speaker 2: bored and like not even knowing what happened. And I
40:02
Speaker 2: just watched a movie on Netflix about that. Really yeah.
40:05
Speaker 2: I can't think of what it's called, but it was
40:06
Speaker 2: really good and I have to look it up. Okay.
40:08
Speaker 2: Time cut. Oh, there's like a time travel thing and
40:12
Speaker 2: it's on the preview. I'm not really like ruining anything, okay, okay,
40:15
Speaker 2: but she like goes back in time to where her
40:17
Speaker 2: sister Pat was like murdered and it's two thousand and seven. Oh,
40:21
Speaker 2: it's like, oh fucking vibe like wow, yeah, you'll love it,
40:25
Speaker 2: You'll love it. Wow.
40:27
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, I guess we know what I'm doing later today.
40:30
Speaker 2: Yep, watch it if you were a two thousand and
40:32
Speaker 2: seven girly, like, uh.
40:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so weird how I can be a two
40:37
Speaker 1: thousand and seven girly and then also still be remarkably
40:41
Speaker 1: like twenty what do we decide twenty eight?
40:44
Speaker 2: Right? Yes? Yeah, I mean I'm I could stall say
40:47
Speaker 2: I'm forty already, let's go, let's get there. No.
40:52
Speaker 1: Actually, it's better to be honest about your age because
40:54
Speaker 1: if you lie and people are like, oh god, you're
40:57
Speaker 1: twenty eight, I don't think though.
40:58
Speaker 2: Wait that's why I'm like, I'll say forty so everyone
41:00
Speaker 2: be like, holy shit, you look amazing. You're forty.
41:04
Speaker 1: You're like aging backwards Benjamin Button.
41:10
Speaker 2: Okay, where do we feel the vibe in the car?
41:15
Speaker 2: Like in this direction? Like I just guide your fingers
41:17
Speaker 2: with my mind?
41:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, like are we is this too far over? I'm
41:21
Speaker 1: feeling like kind of somewhere in here.
41:23
Speaker 2: No, I feel like that area. Yeah okay, oh boy,
41:27
Speaker 2: I like that one for us. Okay, I can let
41:29
Speaker 2: you vana. Was it upside down? It was, Oh, we've
41:32
Speaker 2: gotten this one before too, Ton of Swords in reverse
41:36
Speaker 2: it was yeah, bones, This obviously always reminds me of
41:39
Speaker 2: like a cold case because it's just like just the bones. Yeah.
41:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like Swords is
41:45
Speaker 1: always kind of a vibe with with my cases in particular. Okay,
41:53
Speaker 1: so I still have a page to turn here to
41:57
Speaker 1: get to the Ten of Swords. At the bottom of
41:59
Speaker 1: the Night of Swords, there's an extra excerpt and holy shit,
42:03
Speaker 1: ooh it's a quote there are very few monsters who
42:08
Speaker 1: warrant the fear we have of them.
42:11
Speaker 2: Wow. That literally we talked about that.
42:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, although I will say like all three of these
42:17
Speaker 1: serial killers are in a way it's like, yeah, I
42:21
Speaker 1: mean be fearful of them because wow, horrific. But also again,
42:27
Speaker 1: they are just dudes, and not even like they're they're
42:30
Speaker 1: really awful dudes.
42:31
Speaker 2: Piece just a shock, just pieces. Shit. This also could
42:34
Speaker 2: look like maybe the side of like a California highway
42:37
Speaker 2: or it does. It looks like the desert a little bit.
42:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, so are keywords for the Ten of Swords
42:44
Speaker 1: are exhaustion, giving up, betrayal, pain and sadness reversed. The
42:52
Speaker 1: ton of swords suggests you're unwilling to take the steps
42:56
Speaker 1: that will move you to a better place. Perhaps you're
42:59
Speaker 1: deceiving yourself or you're stalling due to fear. But delaying
43:03
Speaker 1: only makes things worse. Stop making excuses and choose the
43:07
Speaker 1: course of action. Okay, can I just say right off
43:11
Speaker 1: the top, And I don't know, maybe as we read
43:14
Speaker 1: on this will not fit as well as I'm thinking.
43:17
Speaker 1: But this really makes me think of Randy Kraft and
43:22
Speaker 1: he has just maintained silence. It's just deny, deny, deny.
43:26
Speaker 1: He's admitted to nothing. He takes zero responsibility for anything.
43:31
Speaker 1: And it just feels like stop making excuses, like you're
43:35
Speaker 1: It's like he's like delaying the inevitable in the sense
43:40
Speaker 1: that it's like listen, dude, they're gonna find out if
43:43
Speaker 1: there are more I mean, he's on death row, so
43:46
Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot more we can do to him.
43:49
Speaker 2: But at this.
43:49
Speaker 1: Point with him well right, and you know, fortunately or unfortunately,
43:54
Speaker 1: depending on how you feel about the death penalty, he's unlikely,
43:58
Speaker 1: very unlikely to act be put to death. He will
44:02
Speaker 1: probably spend the rest of his natural life awaiting death,
44:06
Speaker 1: which I actually feel like in some cases is truthfully
44:10
Speaker 1: the most appropriate punishment.
44:12
Speaker 2: If you confess and you're already on death row, if
44:15
Speaker 2: you finally confess to it, would they kill you or
44:18
Speaker 2: would they.
44:19
Speaker 1: Just it's not going to it's not going to expedite,
44:22
Speaker 1: you know, for him in execution or anything, because it
44:25
Speaker 1: doesn't have to do with the severity of his crimes.
44:29
Speaker 1: On the West Coast, California is one of many states
44:32
Speaker 1: that has not for decades really executed people. Right, they're
44:40
Speaker 1: essentially kind of in a whole day, they're in purgatory.
44:43
Speaker 2: Oh man, Oh that's fucking worse. Dude, though.
44:47
Speaker 1: I think between California, Oregon, and Washington, I think Washington
44:53
Speaker 1: is the state that has most recently executed someone, and
44:56
Speaker 1: it's almost fifteen years ago, seems Yeah, that's my record,
45:02
Speaker 1: just going straight off the top of my head.
45:04
Speaker 2: Washington, you're off the rails. Yeah, they're the wild card.
45:10
Speaker 2: Apparently they put the W and P and W Washington
45:15
Speaker 2: wild card.
45:16
Speaker 1: Oh I love that for us. So did you have
45:19
Speaker 1: something else or should I do the bullet points?
45:21
Speaker 2: Oh? I don't think so. I mentioned the word like delay,
45:24
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, like it to fifty years too, right.
45:27
Speaker 1: I know that that's immediately what I was kind of
45:30
Speaker 1: thinking of in a reading about money. The reverse ten
45:34
Speaker 1: can represent a time of recovery after hardship or loss.
45:38
Speaker 1: A new cycle is beginning, and better times may wait
45:42
Speaker 1: around the corner, but you must take the first step.
45:45
Speaker 2: I think they've taken it. I feel like that that
45:48
Speaker 2: just reminds me of like they're going to find more
45:51
Speaker 2: people with the DNA evidence. Yeah.
45:54
Speaker 1: No, And all of this technology is becoming you know,
45:57
Speaker 1: more mainstream, and as it's utilized more readily, it will
46:02
Speaker 1: become less hopefully expensive, because I think that is a factor.
46:08
Speaker 1: You know, they want to solve cold cases, but you know,
46:12
Speaker 1: when it's possible that you know the killer or the
46:16
Speaker 1: victim's family members, it's very possible that with some cases,
46:20
Speaker 1: if you're going that far back, everybody that was involved
46:24
Speaker 1: truthfully you know directly, they may no longer be with us. Yeah,
46:28
Speaker 1: and sometimes you have to weigh the public good with
46:33
Speaker 1: you know, the funds that you're utilizing, which I mean,
46:36
Speaker 1: it's a sad reality.
46:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's a lot of murders and yeah, might
46:41
Speaker 2: want to solve the more recent ones first, or people
46:43
Speaker 2: who are still struggling.
46:44
Speaker 1: Or people that could directly be in danger because this
46:48
Speaker 1: killer is like very much still active potentially. I mean,
46:52
Speaker 1: that's a real it's a shit decision to have to
46:55
Speaker 1: to have to make.
46:56
Speaker 2: Really, thank god we don't have to make it.
46:57
Speaker 1: I know I wouldn't. I mean, I just be like,
47:00
Speaker 1: we're over budget again. I'm not explaining it, Get the
47:03
Speaker 1: fuck over it. If the reading is about your job,
47:07
Speaker 1: you still feel insecure about your future, but in order
47:11
Speaker 1: to get to a more satisfactory place, you'll have to
47:14
Speaker 1: take a risk. Stop letting the past prevent you from
47:17
Speaker 1: embracing new possibilities. I don't know why, but I feel
47:22
Speaker 1: like this ties back to me for the now retired detective.
47:29
Speaker 1: He was retired at the point that he went and
47:32
Speaker 1: interviewed Craft in twenty twelve, and I think he knew
47:35
Speaker 1: it was kind of a shot in the dark type
47:38
Speaker 1: of a you know, I'm just gonna shoot my shot. Yeah,
47:41
Speaker 1: so I can't help, But wonder if you know, there's
47:43
Speaker 1: a little bit of like, you know, I'm just gonna
47:46
Speaker 1: take the chance, and like maybe nothing comes from it,
47:48
Speaker 1: but nothing happens when you don't try.
47:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, you never know, Like it takes like one person,
47:53
Speaker 2: one different personality to bring something out. Yeah, that's really true.
47:57
Speaker 2: And he did talk to him more than the like
47:59
Speaker 2: other people, right with that.
48:00
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and actually in the Patreon bonus you'll see
48:04
Speaker 1: like the dramatic difference. I think the passage of time
48:08
Speaker 1: also plays a really big role. In the time more
48:12
Speaker 1: closely associated with his arrest and incarceration, his responses may
48:18
Speaker 1: have been entirely different to more recently ultimately still the
48:23
Speaker 1: same in that like he's copping to absolutely nothing, but
48:28
Speaker 1: he's perhaps a little bit more perceptive to conversations.
48:32
Speaker 2: So probably misses the attention. Yes, I have to assume.
48:36
Speaker 1: I have to assume in a reading about love, you
48:40
Speaker 1: may still be smarting from a deception, disappointment, or betrayal,
48:44
Speaker 1: but at least you can see more clearly now if
48:47
Speaker 1: a relationship has ended, you may experience a new sense
48:50
Speaker 1: of freedom.
48:51
Speaker 2: Fuck yeah, okay, this is kind of dark.
48:54
Speaker 1: But for Craft, the one suspected possible leged accomplice that
49:03
Speaker 1: was his ex lover that has since passed.
49:06
Speaker 2: Think about that.
49:07
Speaker 1: If a relationship ends because that person's life ends, you're like, oh, Okay,
49:12
Speaker 1: he's never going to give up any of my secrets
49:14
Speaker 1: now he can't, damn. I mean he went a good
49:18
Speaker 1: long stretch after the arrest without really spelling the beans.
49:22
Speaker 2: But I mean no, I wonder like why they broke
49:25
Speaker 2: up too, Like what what betrayals and secrets did they
49:29
Speaker 2: have together in their relationship that just couldn't hold it together? Yeah?
49:34
Speaker 1: Well, I have to wonder if the only thing that
49:36
Speaker 1: really separated them was the fact that he was arrested.
49:40
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like it, because it seems like they
49:43
Speaker 1: lived together for the handful of years when he was active, right,
49:47
Speaker 1: But I don't know.
49:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.
49:50
Speaker 1: It begs the question, like what happened there? I'd like
49:54
Speaker 1: to know more about that. The hot goss, Yeah, people
49:58
Speaker 1: still say that the super gross.
50:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, like hot garbage goss. Yeah. Oh my gosh, hot
50:05
Speaker 2: garbage goss. I love it. I want that on a
50:08
Speaker 2: T shirt.
50:09
Speaker 1: I think that's what we name the Patreon bonusge hot
50:12
Speaker 1: garbage goss.
50:14
Speaker 2: I don't know if you have this keyword in yours,
50:16
Speaker 2: but in the Little P ANDW deck book, one of
50:19
Speaker 2: them is bitterness.
50:21
Speaker 1: Oh, it didn't specifically mention bitterness.
50:25
Speaker 2: I don't think, but let me go back. I'm gonna
50:28
Speaker 2: it makes me kind of think of him, like still
50:29
Speaker 2: refusing to talk about it is bitter that she doesn't
50:34
Speaker 2: get to keep score anymore. I don't know.
50:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it doesn't specifically mention bitterness, but I feel
50:39
Speaker 1: like there's an undercurrent of that.
50:41
Speaker 2: It's like part of the vibe. Or it could even
50:44
Speaker 2: be like the families of the unsolved. Oh boy, like
50:49
Speaker 2: the bitterness.
50:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like, and not that you can blame
50:54
Speaker 1: anyone in this case, but the bitterness will get to
50:57
Speaker 1: that in the Patreon bonus.
50:59
Speaker 2: So it's picking up something here, Yeah, it's catching Okay.
51:04
Speaker 2: It says someone has to lose. Why not? You? Life
51:07
Speaker 2: has to end eventually? Why not? Now? Every cycle has
51:12
Speaker 2: an upturn and a downturn. Defeat is natural. There is
51:16
Speaker 2: no shame in giving into it. There's dignity and its acceptance.
51:20
Speaker 2: At least, it's easy to say that when every step
51:23
Speaker 2: is agony, When the sun, having already stolen every ounce
51:27
Speaker 2: of moisture, continues to take more in California. Yeah, when
51:32
Speaker 2: failure is not merely an option but an inevitability, So
51:37
Speaker 2: you collapse and given wilfully or still fighting it doesn't matter.
51:41
Speaker 2: If you're lucky, you'll still be part of the cycle
51:44
Speaker 2: when it turns upward again. But definitely just yeah, cold cases,
51:49
Speaker 2: when you collapse and given willfully or still fighting, it
51:52
Speaker 2: doesn't matter if you're lucky, You'll still be part of
51:55
Speaker 2: the cycle when it turns upward again. Yeah, in fifty years.
51:58
Speaker 2: It is really just yeah, I mean that.
52:01
Speaker 1: Really is like it's like the cycle, right, It's like,
52:04
Speaker 1: I don't know, coma gonna get you?
52:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, even if you're dead and you think you
52:09
Speaker 2: don't have to pay.
52:10
Speaker 1: For it, oh my gosh, or if you think you're
52:14
Speaker 1: well if I was gonna say, even if you think
52:16
Speaker 1: you're dead but you are dead, but you're Yeah, even
52:19
Speaker 1: if you know it's a victim, that's that's past, and
52:24
Speaker 1: you know you think maybe it's like is this person
52:27
Speaker 1: ever going to see justice?
52:30
Speaker 2: Yeah? Hopefully hopefully.
52:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean I really, I really get excited about
52:38
Speaker 1: these cases. And this is like so fresh. I didn't
52:43
Speaker 1: stumble on it like right away in April, so I
52:47
Speaker 1: was it was like a mad dash to really like
52:51
Speaker 1: do the research. And thankfully I think maybe I caught
52:54
Speaker 1: it at kind of the right time where enough different
52:57
Speaker 1: sources had kind of come through with Oh, you know,
53:04
Speaker 1: it wasn't just the one unidentified. It's like I was
53:08
Speaker 1: able to really like pool all of the resources talking
53:11
Speaker 1: about recent developments, and then the fact that there are
53:16
Speaker 1: the parallels in some of these cases and multiple of them.
53:20
Speaker 1: There's some synchronicities there that are just really strange. Yeah,
53:27
Speaker 1: should we should we go do.
53:29
Speaker 2: Some fun stuff? We might do? You know, we might
53:32
Speaker 2: do some fun tarot for some fun. Yeah, Okay, I guess,
53:37
Speaker 2: because you know, I don't. I don't know if you
53:38
Speaker 2: guys know, but we sort of sim I missed our
53:40
Speaker 2: anniversary actually technically, Oh, it's like it's the twenty fifth.
53:45
Speaker 2: It was the twenty second. Yeah, I thought it was
53:47
Speaker 2: the twenty third. Twenty second. Oh okay, either way, have
53:52
Speaker 2: a creepy day, See Mike. See you next Tuesday. Yeah,
53:57
Speaker 2: someone will be there to greet you in our feed.
54:00
Speaker 2: Someone will always be there, don't you guys worry? Yeah,
54:04
Speaker 2: solve all the cold cases, do it. I'd like to
54:11
Speaker 2: think I would never fall through cracks, but it's possible.
54:16
Speaker 2: Are you thinking? Because your butt because it's so small,