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Hamster Book Club Interview - Steve Lyons · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:23
None hamster with a blump.
0:34
Pen Knife for doing quicker, quicker, quicker.
0:39
Welcome back to the Hamster Book Club with me your host Joe Ford,
0:44
and I am very excited today to be talking to a man who every
0:50
time his name turned up in the schedules for Doctor Who
0:53
releases. I got extremely excited.
0:57
It's Mr. Steve Lyons. Hello, Steve.
1:00
Hello. How are you doing today?
1:03
Yeah, not so bad. Steve, the first question I
1:08
would love to ask you is what is your Doctor Who story?
1:14
So how did you find Doctor Who? Where does your love for all
1:17
this come from? I just stumbled across it one
1:22
night relatively late, and I think that most people was about
1:28
nine years old and it was just the closing few minutes of the
1:31
pirate planet. And I think I must have been
1:34
aware of it before that. I think we had the drugs cards,
1:38
but I'd never actually seen it. It just wasn't a program that it
1:43
was on in our house. But I saw the end of that
1:46
episode, then I thought, oh, that seemed interesting and and
1:51
and the announcer said a new story begins next week, so I'll
1:54
make a point to investigate that next week then.
1:59
And did you keep like were you was that it was you in for the
2:02
long haul then the rest of the classic series.
2:05
So you might accept that I missed part one of the part of
2:07
the role. So at the time I thought, well,
2:09
I'll just wait for the next story to start.
2:10
So then I forgot about to existed and it's the other game
2:14
factor as well. And I think what really got me
2:17
into it as a fan was Document Weekly coming out.
2:22
I was already collecting all the Marvel UK stuff and you know,
2:25
they they announced a new comic and I thought to myself, oh,
2:29
Doctor Who, I, you know, I've seen a bit of that, that can be,
2:33
that can be fun. And I was just absolutely
2:35
grabbed by the the comic strips in Doctor Weekly Issue One, and
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I think that's when I really became a fan.
2:44
I Because you wrote the The Big Finish beat the Meep story,
2:49
didn't you? Yes, I thought I'll detected
2:52
some great love going into that one.
2:53
Do you? Yeah.
2:57
I think there he must have known how much I love those early
3:00
strips and that one in particular, because it came that
3:03
was just a gift when he came to me with that.
3:06
And I've got to ask, you must be very excited about what's coming
3:08
up later on in the month. Yeah, I never thought I'd see
3:14
that day. No, me neither.
3:17
Mind you, if they don't include that song from your one, I'll be
3:21
very disappointed. My God.
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I mean, I've. I've got a A Big Finish podcast
3:25
as well and we covered the that one recently, the ratings war.
3:30
And unfortunately I sang the entire thing at the beginning of
3:33
the episode. I love it.
3:37
OK, so then, pushing away from discovering Doctor Who, how did
3:40
you come to write your first Doctor Who book?
3:42
Like, how did that opportunity arise?
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It was, I mean, you've probably heard this from from a lot of
3:48
people that it was the the adventures, open submissions
3:51
policy. It was that simple.
3:53
And I I just, you know, the luckiest break I've ever had in
3:56
my life was that that amazing opportunity came about and just
4:00
the right time when I was ready to take advantage of it.
4:05
So you know they they announced that I started sending ideas in
4:08
and it was my fourth attempt that they that they accepted.
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So yeah, it was as straightforward as that.
4:17
Anyway. Was it conundrum the the first,
4:19
the first one? Yeah, you say that was your 4th.
4:24
What? Your 4th submission conundrum.
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Can you remember what the first three were?
4:29
Well the third one was the witch hunters, which I later retailed
4:31
and get out as a passed out to the venture for the for the BBC
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and I think they they they held on to that for a long time.
4:41
That was in serious consideration.
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I was a bit depressed when they rejected it, but a few months
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later I sort of gave up. At that point I thought, they're
4:51
not going to accept that one. And then, you know, I don't have
4:53
one in me that they will accept. But then a few months later they
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I got a letter from Peter Darvill Evans, the the
4:59
publisher, saying that the new adventures were kicking up to a
5:02
monthly frequency from bimonthly and they were looking for
5:07
submissions from the existing writers.
5:09
And then he said writers of promises submissions, and they
5:11
were sort of flattered. So they considered in that
5:13
category. Then I worked on conundrum, turn
5:19
that around in a couple of weeks and that was the one I got.
5:23
The first first two I reworked into shorts stories at some
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point. One of them was called the
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Eternity Contract and it's in the second Short Trips volume
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and one of them is now called the Destroyers and he's in one
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of the Big Finish Short Trips. But with with those two, I
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really did just take the kernel of the idea and and rework it
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and and realise that you know, it wasn't big enough for a
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novel. So I just did something small
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with it. I will say that I'd never throw
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away a good idea, just repurpose it later.
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So let's let's talk about conundrum then.
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Because obviously that that. I don't think it's a great
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spoiler because it's been out a long time now to say that that
6:12
story is setting around the land of fiction.
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So was that the inspiration for that book?
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It it was really at that point. I was a few.
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A few of the books had come out and I was looking at the sorts
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of things that they were doing and and they'd done a couple
6:29
back-to-back I think time of Revelation and Cat's Cradle
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Science Crucible. We're we're we're both the
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Doctor exploded in some sort of mysterious realm where the laws
6:42
of physics are different and then realising what it is and so
6:49
if that's a sort of story that they like.
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So it's been a bit cynical in a way.
6:54
Just trying to get the Commission.
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That's the sort of story that they're like.
6:59
Then I'd do something with the same sort of construction to it
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and and the the land of fiction, just we presented itself as an
7:07
obvious one that would see that and and that I could do in a
7:12
different way for for a different medium I could do the
7:16
book version land of fiction, which by now we also thought was
7:19
something that Regent will be very interested in.
7:22
So it's, you know, probably the reason that that was the one
7:26
that got Commission was that that was the first one when I'd
7:28
really had a chance to look at what they were doing and and to
7:31
say right, well, you know, these are the sorts of things that
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they seem to like. It's sort of, on TV afforded the
7:37
chance to do lots of visually interesting things, but in prose
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it afforded lots of narrative, like really fun narrative things
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to do as well. That I remember that when that
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came out, and I remember the response to that was massively
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positive, like the review in The Doctor Who Makes It.
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And a lot of people were sort of talking about this, this new
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writer in the Doctor Who seen, you know, when's the when's the
7:59
next one coming out? Can I ask him?
8:02
How was it? Because I think one of the
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criticisms, not of Conundrum but of the books at the time was
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taking the older grown up Ace, who was a very sort of pushing
8:16
away from the TV series and she was becoming a a sort of edgier,
8:20
more violent I I, I loathe to say more mature because I don't
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know anything very mature about it.
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But like what was it like dealing with that interpretation
8:31
of that character just in my mind right now?
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Yeah, I mean it was just what they were doing at the time.
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It was, it was, it was. I think it was right that they
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were moving things forwards. I did think that they they've
8:52
become very serious, very hard science fiction and and that's
8:57
why I wanted to put a lot of humour into conundrum and that
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is Ace was concerned. I mean we did I spoke to the
9:07
other writers in the what they call the alternative universe
9:10
cycle and we did have a little bit of a of a story arc between
9:14
her and the niece that they'd been feuded and we were supposed
9:19
to sort that out by the end of our arc.
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So I did have somewhere to go with her.
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So yeah, it wasn't. The reason I was I was asking
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about that was because your second new Adventure head games.
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I've kind of very specifically worded this question OK, because
9:47
Arthur, is this a criticism of how far the New adventures have
9:50
strayed away from the classic series, or is it a celebration
9:54
of how far we've come because? There's some definite points
9:57
being made in that book. I it was it was deliberately
10:00
both. It was it was let's say it's an
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exploration of that I wanted to I wanted to poke some for the
10:05
tape but also you know point points out where it has been a
10:10
good thing. It was just, yeah, the the idea
10:12
of bringing Mel back and bringing a face to face with
10:15
with the new Ace and characters like Chris and Roswell was.
10:19
I just wanted to explore that, that clashing styles without
10:23
coming down on either side particularly.
10:26
I'll never forget that sequence at the end where she just goes,
10:29
you're not, you're not the Doctor anymore and she just
10:32
storms out the TARDIS. And I was like, my word.
10:34
I said, this is a bold range of books that's, that's basically
10:38
criticizing how far they've come.
10:40
But yeah, I I remember when I wrote the review of that one, I
10:44
just said, yeah, this, this was like an angry book.
10:46
It feels like a a book with a point to make but but in the
10:50
meantime I've you know I've got I've got beneath his salsa on
10:53
the fence and and I can see Mel's point but but comes to you
10:57
know kind of reluctantly accept that that what the doctor is
11:00
doing is the right thing. So you know, I tried to.
11:03
I tried to have a range of responses.
11:07
Did you because obviously you were writing for the new
11:09
adventures and the missing adventures, did you have a
11:13
preference of sort of writing for the ones that were sort of
11:17
dipping into the past or the ones that were sort of the the
11:20
new current Doctor Who? It's just it's just slightly
11:27
different things. I mean the main thing with
11:28
writing the the the new adventures and the eight Doctor
11:32
adventures later was that you you sort of felt like you were
11:36
taking the series forward. I think you got, you got a
11:39
better reaction to them because of that perception that it was
11:44
new stuff where some people thought oh the you know the past
11:48
adventures, they're a bit, they're a bit stuck in the past,
11:50
they're not as worthy. So there was, in a way, there
11:53
was a sort of preference for the new stuff just because it was
11:57
welcome or it felt more prestigious.
12:00
And well, just, I mean, it's not like I was deciding where the
12:05
storylines were going. I was still, you know, doing
12:08
what the editors had decided. And so the actual process of
12:12
writing didn't feel any, any freer than the past Doctors.
12:17
And only some cases, like with a six Doctor, Past Doctor stories,
12:21
when when I could pick up after the trial and give them a new
12:24
companion and send them in a new direction.
12:26
In some, in some cases, I thought freer doing those
12:29
stories, you know that then I did fitting into a prearranged
12:35
plan with the new stuff. And of course, you know, the
12:39
other stuff gave me the opportunity to work with
12:42
character, with work with different versions of the Doctor
12:44
in different companions I'd loved on screen.
12:46
So it was swings around about really I think, I think I would
12:51
say slight preference for the older stuff, but then I was
12:54
aware that you know the you come upload it's for the newer stuff.
12:58
So that was always a draw. Well then, skipping over into
13:02
the missing Avengers for a second there because a friend of
13:05
mine, Dylan, absolutely loves Grant Markham.
13:09
And it's appalled that he only appeared in two books.
13:12
So was was the idea of introducing a new companion to
13:17
sort of have your cake and eat it, then to like to do a missing
13:20
adventure, but to have a character in it where we don't
13:22
know where that character's end point is?
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Pretty much. Although when I when I submitted
13:28
them back originally, it was supposed to be the first
13:31
appearance of Melbourne. It was.
13:33
It was Rebecca, a virgin, who said well, well, actually, no, I
13:36
don't really feel about having a whole new area before Mel turns
13:40
up. So yeah, that didn't come from
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me. But once you suggested that that
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that, yeah, that would be, that was exactly that, that we got to
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do a sort of, you know, I mean sort of stuff being finished
13:56
does all the time now, you know. But at that time it was, it was,
14:00
you know, kind of new new adventures that you don't know
14:02
the NP2, as you say, because because then again, because the
14:05
six doctor never really got a proper conclusion on screen.
14:09
You know, it felt exactly as you say, having cake and eat it,
14:13
that it was a misadventure. It fitted in between two
14:16
stories, but we still didn't know where the character was
14:19
going was. There where there's supposed to
14:21
be a third Grant book, well, we never really found it like that.
14:27
It was just, it was just one book at a time.
14:29
And I think, I don't think we really considered, you know,
14:37
when you look at the schedule and how many doctors, the word
14:40
and how often the six doctors was going to come around and the
14:43
fact that they needed to do Perry and Mailbox.
14:45
I think we really considered the fact that these books were only
14:48
really going to come out once every two years.
14:51
And I remember thinking when when I picked the second one I
14:54
did, I did. That was a story that I'd
14:57
planned to build up to. And I suddenly thought, I'm not,
15:00
I'm never going to get a chance to build up something.
15:02
It's going to be certainly his in the future.
15:04
So I better do it now if that's a story I want to do with him.
15:08
So I know there was never really a plan in that sense.
15:10
I mean with, you know, with with Hans, I maybe maybe what what
15:14
they should have done is is, you know, made a commitment to in a
15:18
few books with other writers to to to get a series going with
15:22
that character. But it did say it was something
15:24
that we never really and so and you know, it does feel like it
15:28
fizzled out in a way just just through the just through the
15:31
schedule. It's it's like you said there
15:33
with Big Finish with their original companions.
15:36
It's exactly doing that, isn't it?
15:38
But you have someone like, I don't know, Maggie Stables,
15:40
Evelyn come in and she got 1515 stories.
15:44
So you were able to tell that sort of long term story and then
15:47
give her an endpoint as well. And and also I wanted to write
15:51
with the doctors and companions. I didn't want to be pitching six
15:53
months. I didn't grow the whole time.
15:55
So yeah, we do. We with hindsight it it's
15:58
perhaps something that that that you know could have been better
16:01
planned more than by the big finish doing now.
16:04
Killing ground was one of three, I think times Virgin used to
16:11
Cybermen. Was there anything in particular
16:14
you wanted to do with them? I remember it being a quite a
16:17
graphic book. At the time I was getting known
16:22
for doing quirky postmodern books medium grain and and I
16:27
really wanted to do something that was that was darker and and
16:31
and grimmer. I always wanted to use the
16:34
Cyberman and I felt you know it's it's it's not let the new
16:39
writers the over the said writers guidelines don't put all
16:42
the monsters in the in the first story so I was pushing it a bit
16:45
with like robots I guess in conundrum but I thought I can
16:49
ask the 4th but they might let me do the Cybermen by now.
16:52
So something I always wanted to do and what I wanted to do with
16:54
them I think was what everyone wanted to do with them at that
16:57
time which was made them strong again.
16:58
There was that perception in fandom that the last few TV
17:02
appearance is when the, you know, you can bounce a girl kind
17:04
of the chest and they fall over and devoted them a bit.
17:08
And I wanted them to be a threat.
17:10
I wanted, I wanted just a handful of Cybermen to be a
17:15
massive threat. You.
17:17
Succeeded because you gave me nightmares.
17:19
I think there was. I remember there was some really
17:22
graphic conversion scenes and things like that.
17:24
I was like, oh, blow me. And I was quite young, young
17:27
reading those, so I felt a bit naughty.
17:28
You know, like that was that was the other thing as well that
17:31
they never really gone into the conversion.
17:33
You know, seriously, come really was with was with Hitson.
17:36
I think an attack on the side of them, but it was a whole area
17:39
that they just hadn't really gone into on screen.
17:43
Just something about it being described in prose that really
17:46
sticks in your head because your imagination does some of the
17:48
work, yeah. OK, so then let's let's jump
17:54
across to the 8th Doctor books you wrote, The Space Age, which
18:00
was sort of towards the end of Steven Cole's.
18:06
Time with the books and before Justin took over and there was a
18:10
bit of an arc taking place there, like there was a lot of
18:12
interlink stories, but the space age is is almost an entire stand
18:18
alone. Was that the idea there, to have
18:21
something completely independent?
18:25
It's mostly independent, but the issue with the space age, it was
18:29
that they told me what the story I was changed the minds and then
18:33
some of it changed the minds. So it kind of like they had the
18:39
last minute rewrite say take story.
18:42
I can limit times rather than adding them.
18:48
So we. Haven't just take out arc
18:50
elements and then just like pad it out then well it was.
18:53
I mean to be fairly we wasn't it wasn't it was never that linked
18:58
it was supposed to be you know one of one of the stand alone
19:00
stories before they go into the big closing arc.
19:03
But the the the there was a plan with compassion that she was
19:06
going to be become less and less human and more and more you know
19:10
more and more mechanical more and more like the TARDIS.
19:13
And so I had, I had a well into that process and not really
19:17
interacting with the with the rest of the crew in that story
19:21
and and then found out that that wasn't what she was doing
19:25
anymore. So I mean I didn't it wasn't a
19:28
hugely right to be honest, but I did.
19:30
I did have to find another reason.
19:32
I had to create a reason why she would behave like that in this
19:35
story rather than it be the continuation of the previous
19:40
one. Which meant that I was.
19:43
People thought I made the decision to sideline for that
19:47
story when, you know, actually that was something that I was
19:51
supposed to do, right? The trouble is everyone,
19:54
everyone blames the author, don't they?
19:57
He's just doing what he's told. Yeah, it was a it was a really
20:02
interesting time for the books then you you've been obviously
20:05
writing Doctor Who books for some years then.
20:07
So by that point, were they, was your name sort of just thrown in
20:11
the hat, Like were you, were you asked or were you still
20:14
commissioning like you know? Still there, still pitching it.
20:17
All was books. But where it was up to the end
20:21
of what how many, how many books you don't, you still send their
20:24
submission and it went on to the slush pile.
20:27
I mean, you know, I'm sure the editors pick some of the ones by
20:31
by names that they recognized. And also because you know the
20:34
editors here by that I was, I was always able to talk to Steve
20:37
Cole and ask questions like well, which doctors don't you
20:39
have submissions for. So I could send him something
20:42
that I knew he was looking for. You know, those were the
20:45
advantages, but but but it was you know, in the end it was
20:48
always just, you know, writing the synopsis and sending it in
20:51
always the same process as the first time.
20:55
One of my all time favourite Doctor Who books is The Crooked
21:00
World and when I picked it up I had no idea what to expect
21:05
looking at that cover, just that there was now something to do
21:09
with cartoons and the thing I didn't expect was for it to be
21:12
such a mature and emotional read.
21:17
How on Earth did? Because I think it's a truly
21:19
unique bit of Doctor Who's storytelling.
21:21
How did that book come about? Now you mentioned that's that's
21:26
possibly the one exception to to the I've just stated which is
21:30
that I was like I was like Gallifrey 1 convention with some
21:34
of the other writers and I was on a panel with Justin Richards
21:36
and somehow we ended up talking about Scooby-doo.
21:39
And Justin said oh I'd I'd accepted his Scooby-doo
21:42
crossover from you so. There.
21:46
Yeah, I started thinking about that.
21:49
And I think what what just in mind was, was something like you
21:52
bring, you know, one of the scooby-doo characters into the
21:54
real world where I just watched Pleasantville.
21:57
Love Pleasantville. Yeah, and it's about kids going
22:02
into the world that, you know, pretty one who's not seeing it.
22:05
Going into the world of the 1950s black and white sitcom.
22:08
I just thought how much more interesting would it be to send
22:11
the Doctor into the animated world that scary do and and you
22:17
know in the book as a similar sort of idea behind it that by
22:21
going into that world Doctor and his companions and introduce new
22:24
ideas into that that these characters hadn't thought of and
22:31
and then so we developed from there and yeah what what was
22:35
originally a day simply book that I knew there'd be a lot of
22:39
potential for humour in you know obviously it just it just ends
22:43
up building into quite deeper darker things just just by just
22:49
by virtue of that story that's you know that's that's what it
22:51
has to do. When I when I covered.
22:54
So we've recorded an episode on the cricket world for the for
22:57
the book club. One of one of my guests that
23:00
came on who had never read it before.
23:01
I never read a doctor book before, called it a Tour de
23:04
force, which I thought was a great way of describing it, but
23:07
I actually said during that. You know the courthouse scene
23:11
where Jasper the cat? I said, now look, I've seen this
23:15
film Pleasantville. And I swear there's a similar
23:17
courthouse scene in that where and they're sort of discussing
23:21
similar things. And I said, I don't know if
23:22
Steven was as seamless as a feel.
23:24
I said, but it's uncannily similar to that film.
23:30
Well, then can I can I ask you, did you have to, like, I wonder
23:36
if you researched something like that?
23:37
Did you just watch a lot of cartoons?
23:40
I don't think I needed to. I think I just, you know, I
23:44
think I'd already watched enough.
23:46
I just knew how that stuff worked.
23:49
So honestly, you would think you would think writing down comic
23:55
set pieces. It just, it flies off the page
23:58
though as you're reading it, you can have and I think because
24:02
I've seen a lot of cartoons as well, because you know that
24:04
stuff, you can really sort of visualise it, yeah.
24:08
There's one that made me die, where Angie holds her hand up to
24:12
the sun and the sun sort of harrumphs and buggers off and
24:15
says, well, you don't want. But was it, was it always
24:19
supposed to be? Was it always supposed to be as
24:22
sort of mature as it gets? So like, obviously there's it
24:25
comes to a point where there's the first murder committed.
24:28
And I remember reading reviews at the time and people say this
24:31
is the most horrific murder in a Doctor Who book, probably
24:35
because it softened them all up in the first half.
24:37
You know what makes sense? Yeah, Yeah.
24:40
It just, it just feels sort of because it wants you to rest in
24:42
that world. It feels so lots of place.
24:44
So, you know, it just, it just seems like something that
24:47
shouldn't happen. But yeah, I think, I think from
24:50
early on, that's what we wanted to do with it.
24:54
How what's it like then? Because of sort of the the
24:58
various books we've discussed so far, these are all different.
25:01
Sets of regulars each time. So here you've got an almost
25:05
entirely original set of regulars.
25:07
You've got the Doctor, you've got Fitz, and you've got Angie.
25:12
It's like a Bible on these characters.
25:14
Or like, you know, how, how do you go about sort of grabbing
25:18
hold of each new set of regulars and writing for those?
25:20
There would have been for any, for any character that's created
25:25
for the books. That would have been, yeah, some
25:28
sort of Bible that would be, you know, I need a character
25:30
description and I can't remember specifically with those two, but
25:34
it was, it would be normal for the publishers to send out and
25:41
writing a sample of, you know, the first chapter or whatever.
25:44
And because I was reading the books and I think it was all the
25:49
difficult ones were the ones because of the publishing lead
25:53
time would have been the ones that I hadn't seen in print yet
25:55
when I had only the the writers guidelines to go on fit.
25:58
And Angie I think had been around for a while by the time I
26:01
wrote them. So I've been able to be booked
26:02
with them in and yeah, yeah, feel for the characters.
26:08
And the 8th Doctor was, you know put in the same category and not
26:12
too much in The Crooked Rule, but definitely the space age.
26:14
I remember worrying about how to bring into life and there was so
26:17
little ones on screen and and you know not a lot of the
26:21
writers were were struggling with that.
26:23
And when Ron was reading the original nice doctor books, I
26:26
remember making notes of any anything just it was a line of
26:29
dialogue or a gesture that was described that I thought Oh
26:32
yeah, that I can see Paul that brings that to life.
26:35
And I was making a little note to do something similar in my
26:38
book because you know, because it is harder than the regulars
26:42
that you've seen on TV because you've seen them on TV, you've
26:45
got that factors performance in your mind and you and you have
26:49
that performance as well. So you kind of key into that and
26:52
and just try to remind them of who this character is that we
26:55
all we all know so well. Again, with books you get a bit
26:59
more like doing the English literature or novels.
27:02
It's just of making a note of the the, the mannerisms when you
27:07
spend the crop up. That's sort of the joy with the
27:11
crooked world, especially with Angie I found was because she's
27:14
this sort of logical broker and you've dumped her in this world
27:19
that has no rules whatsoever. So that first, sort of third
27:22
where she's trying to figure out how this all works, and then the
27:25
point where she finally figures out how it all works, it all
27:28
starts changing again. And As for Fitz trying to cop
27:32
off with Penelope Pit stop, It's great to have those two
27:39
characters because, you know, I didn't, I didn't specifically
27:41
write it for those characters. I had the idea and then thought
27:44
how well the characters fit into it and and in a way that was the
27:47
perfect partnership to, you know, to just to just explore
27:51
both sides of that world. So I was looking at the ones
27:54
that were around, not sure what Compassion would have done in
27:57
that book. I would love to see what you
27:59
would have done though. Are you Are you ever aware of
28:03
the reception after a book comes out like that?
28:07
That had a terrific reception. When that book came out, I
28:09
remember reading a review in TV Zone, in Doctor Who Magazine, in
28:13
I Who, and you know saw everyone I loathe to ask an author.
28:18
Do you seek out reviews? Because sometimes I know some
28:21
people that don't like to do that at all.
28:22
But are you aware of how how books are received?
28:25
Yeah, yeah and yeah I seek that I can still there can help self.
28:31
Sorry. Hello.
28:31
I'm going very always. I always look and then some
28:34
fucking book came out. I mean there are actual rankings
28:37
on there below Frank. So I was monitoring them all the
28:40
time. I actually just a question for
28:45
the cover as well. Like do you have any, do you
28:51
have any input in the cover at all?
28:52
Because obviously they're using what's inside the book.
28:56
So. Do you get to say, yeah, I would
28:58
like this on the front, but I never did.
29:01
But this came up because I did in Derby a couple of months ago
29:05
with with a lot of the new adventures and apparently
29:08
everyone else did. But I just, I just always
29:11
thought, no, that's someone else's job.
29:13
No, I don't know, I don't know because I'm not.
29:16
So I just, I forget apparently, if I had said something then and
29:20
then then we've listened, it sings, but I just never did.
29:24
It was something that I just, you know, I thought was never
29:26
anything to do with me. And it was always, it was always
29:29
a, you know, lovely surprise to see the cover.
29:31
And you know, that's one of the, you know, somebody's dreamed of
29:35
writing novels on my life. One of the great moments is
29:38
getting the cover proof and then, you know, seeing seeing
29:42
someone. I mean you know the first one
29:43
I've got Jeff Cummings and you know an artist already knew and
29:46
loved. I mean it's tight books and
29:48
suddenly he's even my cover with my character on it.
29:51
So there's a there's a wheel thrill to that.
29:53
So I don't think, I don't think everybody still steady any
29:58
covers with any of them And yeah the cookie book was was a big
30:02
he's original version which is the bright orange background
30:08
when that came in the post and I had no one and it's whoa, what
30:12
is this And I think they thought that was a bit much so they made
30:15
it like blue instead. I was.
30:18
I was such a massive fan of the books, right?
30:21
I I used to take the day off school at school.
30:23
I can't remember where I was now, but basically I'll be there
30:27
at Waterstones when I knew the book would hit the shelf.
30:30
I'll be there knocking on the door.
30:31
So let me get the doctoral books.
30:33
I remember going in the day cricket, well came out and the
30:36
woman you know, she took one look at the cartoon coverage she
30:39
handed to me as as if she felt so sorry for me.
30:43
And I was like, hey, give me it's it's certainly a unique
30:47
cover, isn't it? Probably the most unique cover.
30:53
OK, well then let's skip over to the past doctor range, where
31:00
you've got 1234 books in the past doctor range.
31:04
Your first one is The Murder Game and.
31:09
I was going to ask you about. I can never say the the name.
31:11
You created an original race of monsters which have taken flight
31:17
into other mediums as well. Is it salations?
31:22
Salations. Yeah.
31:23
Can you tell me about the salations and what how did they
31:25
come to me? I was.
31:29
I was just thinking about how to make a classic Doctor Who wants
31:31
to work in book form. Because what you don't get in
31:34
books is, is that the immediate visual impacts of you know, that
31:39
cliffhanger where the monster bursts in and you see them for
31:42
the first time because at that point in the book you have to
31:45
stop and describe them for three pages.
31:49
So I wanted, I wanted a monster that can be described in the
31:52
fewest number of words, and I mean patterning after an Earth
32:00
monster was this seems to be the easiest way to do that.
32:02
I could just say, you know, humanoid and the sharks burst in
32:07
and I'm just trying to get that sort of impact at the end of
32:10
chapter three, I think. Only my only sort of sad As for
32:15
that is I would love to have seen how they would have
32:17
realised that in the classic series.
32:21
Because it's that sort of, it's that same sort of striking
32:24
visual like the Ice Warriors, isn't it?
32:26
Like a walking sort of alligator man and things like that.
32:29
Yeah, it was, yeah, make make it as simple as possible.
32:33
But also when I thought of sharks I thought there's
32:39
actually somewhere you can go with that you can you can dive
32:42
into one, you know a completely aquatic monster would, would,
32:48
would be alike. So there was I could introduce
32:51
them as like the simplest concept possible.
32:53
But there was also something I can explore afterwards.
32:58
Can I ask you in the murder game, are Polly and Ben in love?
33:01
Because I was absolutely convinced when I read that, that
33:03
you were telling me that. I think so.
33:06
I think. I think Carosia the Yeah, Yeah.
33:10
Whether it's real alone, it's been thrown into these
33:14
situations together. Whether they're made out of love
33:17
the the people tend to split them up after they you know in
33:21
in in the extended media after they leave the TARDIS about Poly
33:25
Manager. Yeah I just I get that from the
33:28
war machines. I think they, you know, there's
33:30
there's a spike between them for the moment of meet and the
33:33
Inferno nightclub and I just wanted to to keep that going.
33:39
Whenever. My my other half is a Doctor Who
33:41
fan as well, and he hasn't read an awful lot of Doctor Who
33:46
books. But whenever I say to him, Come
33:47
on, what's your favorite? What's your favorite?
33:49
The Murder Game is his favorite Doctor Who book, and I'll keep
33:53
going. Well, that's Steve Laws about
33:54
the crooked world. What about he goes, no, it's the
33:57
murder game, he goes, I like her.
33:58
A nice second Doctor. Polly Ben.
34:01
Murder Mystery. Big Sharks.
34:03
Lots of fun. And I I kind of got that that
34:06
that was the sort of the that was the aim for that book at
34:09
that sort of near the beginning of that range.
34:11
It very much was. It was something that I wanted
34:13
to do anyway. But also it comes out of BBC
34:16
books taken over. I didn't I had no idea what
34:19
sorts of stories were looking for.
34:20
So I submitted 2 to them and one was an Eighth Doctor story kind
34:23
of you know in the style of the new adventures, broad and deep
34:26
and all that. And the other one was just the
34:28
most tradition of Doctor Who story possible.
34:33
The monsters on a spaceship with the 2nd Doctor and that was the
34:36
one they went for. Then moving across to The Witch
34:41
Hunters, which I think is an extraordinary book.
34:45
How much research has to go into writing a historical novel like
34:48
that because it felt extremely well researched?
34:51
Absolutely tons that that was my ongoing project before there was
34:56
such a thing as Doctor Who books you know had.
34:59
So that was just something I I really wanted to do.
35:03
So I've been researching that for years and you know, whenever
35:07
I thought it was that a new book would come out and I read that.
35:09
So I very, very much knew that, that setting.
35:17
And there's a sad I submitted that to Virgin back in the day.
35:23
So I think I researched it all again to submit it to the BBC.
35:30
So it was something, yeah, you know, ridiculous amounts of
35:36
work. If it was submitted something
35:39
like that, now, you know, there wouldn't be time to do the
35:41
amounts of it was just a hobby for years and years.
35:46
So more, more, more so than if I'd just submitted the book and
35:50
done the research for the book. I remember all the the sequences
35:57
in that book. Or they were really stifling.
36:00
You had, you know, lots of angry people behaving in irrational
36:05
ways. And I think, I think possibly
36:07
the only time the TV series has ever made me as fractionally
36:13
uncomfortable as I felt reading that book was Midnight with that
36:17
that sort of crowd. In that it really captured that
36:20
sort of how dangerous people could be if they're provoked
36:22
enough. It sounds like they were they
36:24
were pretty terrible times back then honestly.
36:27
Yeah. And and and you know, of course
36:29
it's that all just comes from from what really happened and
36:32
the book gets a lift from from knowing that these are real
36:34
people and you know you can't just shut the page and say it
36:38
was all made-up. And I got to Salem as well.
36:44
I'd after writing the book one, I was waiting for Steve Cole to
36:47
read it. I got a chance to go to Salem.
36:49
I thought, if I don't, if I don't do it now, well, I've got
36:53
one last chance to to to do rewrites to the book.
36:56
Then there's you know there's no point doing it any other time
36:58
did. You have to change much.
37:03
I just. I just added a little bit.
37:05
Oh, I forget. Oh, I know.
37:08
I'll tell you what I did have to change.
37:09
I've got the details of Rebecca Nancy's house roll.
37:13
I described an extension that was only added sixty years
37:16
later. So I was.
37:18
I was maybe a smaller detail, but I was glad to be able to
37:21
rewrite it and I got an idea in the Salem Witchcraft Museum,
37:27
which I worked in. Again.
37:29
It was only a few lines and I can't remember exactly what it
37:31
was. It was something to do with Anne
37:33
Putnam and what her motivation might have been from what she
37:36
did. So, so not much, but just just
37:40
for that that that house would have me for the rest of my life
37:43
if I'd if it had been the wrong shape in the book.
37:46
So I'm glad I went for that reason I.
37:49
Got very excited when they announced the Witch Finders in
37:54
because I really thought they were going to lead into this and
37:56
actually it did turn out to be Doctor Who alien invasion, which
38:00
which was a bit of a shame, although if they had, you know,
38:03
gone down that route I would have expected to have seen her.
38:06
You know, a dedication at least like they do on the credits.
38:10
Are you sorry just because I did?
38:14
I did read a couple of books about depend on which trails
38:16
because at one point I thought is there something I can do with
38:19
that, but in the end it was basically the same story, so I
38:22
want just to be repeating some stuff.
38:25
It was one of the joys of the so sort of early Hartnell
38:28
historicals. They didn't care if they had to
38:30
create, you know, somewhere overseas in the corner of Lime
38:33
Grove. They were just going to do it.
38:35
Yeah. Are you a fan of the the
38:39
Hartnell historicals in and that sort of first team?
38:42
Yes. Yeah very much to both.
38:44
I mean the Aztecs I think is one of the one of the best Doctor
38:46
Who stories. Full stop.
38:48
And then you know obviously a lot of the themes from that made
38:50
into the Witch answers because that's the story where where you
38:54
know the doctor tells in Barber that you can't change history
38:57
and and the show has changed history many times since I
39:01
wanted to you know almost do a sequel to the Aztecs where where
39:05
the Doctors challenged to explain a bit more of that and
39:09
you know comes into a situation where where that becomes
39:11
personal again. Well then my next question for
39:16
you is pushing away from that first team to the season three
39:21
team that you used in SALVATION. And I just want to ask you about
39:26
Dodo because I I thought this was the first time I'd ever seen
39:31
Dodo given a chance in print. Yeah, usually.
39:36
She usually just appears to be killed off, doesn't she?
39:38
Shot. In the head STD, something that
39:40
something terrible usually happens to her, a chance to sort
39:43
of give her a back story. Yeah, yeah, it was just, yeah,
39:48
in those days it hadn't been done.
39:52
You know, nowadays every, every companion has back stories and
39:58
some of them have sixes, have been conflicting backstories.
40:01
But at the time, there was a gap.
40:02
They just hadn't been exploited. I wanted to.
40:09
I can't. I think I can't remember why
40:11
that story is Stephen and Doe Darling.
40:12
That might have been again just what they were looking for at
40:15
the time, but Stephen as well, you know very, very little about
40:22
him. You don't even know what year he
40:24
comes from. I think the series is a little
40:26
bit inconsistent on that. So with the chance to to to just
40:31
fit in a little bit of both those characters.
40:34
On the one hand you you gave Dodo a family which is just got,
40:38
but on the other hand you actually wrote Stephen as a
40:42
space pilot from the future, which is something the TV show
40:45
forgot with spectacular frequency.
40:49
He did. I mean yeah, he just becomes a
40:51
bit of an everyone character doesn't see after his his first
40:54
appearance. I mean it was really, really it
40:56
was useful to have somebody. I mean, it could have been from
41:00
our present day, but for somebody who came from after
41:03
1965 was the point, somebody from Dodo's future who could
41:08
comment on, you know, things that were happening in in 1965
41:13
that weren't necessarily historical.
41:15
So it was. It was a useful point of view to
41:17
have. With with Dodo, is it sort of
41:21
the the chance to take a maligned character and give her
41:26
opportunities or is this a character that you genuinely
41:29
like and you were like, no, no, I'm going to, I'm going to give
41:32
her a chance. It's more the first really.
41:38
It's the minder, but it is taking.
41:42
A lot of people just want to write their favorite characters
41:45
and I'm always attracted to the ones that I think, oh, there's
41:48
something there, but they don't quite get it out.
41:50
They don't quite realize it. And Dodo is one of those
41:53
characters. And Mel, when I got to write,
41:55
Surf and be finished, you know, having tried to the missing
41:57
inventors and that was brilliant, to be able to, you
42:02
know, do something slightly different with her.
42:04
And also I would say that's what attracted me to the sick doctor
42:06
that I thought, oh, I know what they're trying to do, but I
42:10
think they could have done it better.
42:13
I remember when I was reading Time of Your Life and I was
42:16
going there's some definite commentary on the 6th Doctor
42:19
here and and what they did on TV and what they probably should
42:23
have avoided. Well then, the The Last Past
42:30
Doctor adventure. That you wrote was The Final
42:32
Sanction set in season six and a story unlike anything in season
42:40
six. It was like a very sort of
42:43
brutally told war story. That is that sort of a was that
42:47
you saying I want to tell this story or were they like, no, no,
42:50
let's we'll do something different from what we had in
42:52
Season 6. It wasn't a brief.
42:58
I wasn't asked for that. But you know, by that point I
43:02
think, I think they were happy with, you know, without their
43:07
approach with it, with it being like season six or not season
43:10
six, I don't think I set out specifically to do something
43:14
different. It's just again where, I mean, I
43:17
set out to bring the solutions back and to visit their home
43:20
planet, and I think the tone of it is, is just where the story
43:27
took me. I just, I remember when I was
43:30
reading that one, The 2nd Doctor, Jamie and Zoe are such a
43:35
they're a fun trio. And in Season 6 they're sort of
43:38
the levity and all of the stories.
43:40
You actually put them in a scenario where they were kind of
43:43
going through hell. And it was really interesting
43:46
because that just allowed you to see those 3 characters and how
43:49
they'd react under stress, which we'd never really seen before, I
43:56
suppose. Yeah, they say it's not
43:57
something I set out today. But we know once I've got the
44:00
story, then I think you know what, it's, you know, it's these
44:02
horrific things are going to happen in it.
44:04
Then you, you know, you have to find, you have to find the way
44:07
that the characters would react to that.
44:10
And you know, with books, that was the one thing that was
44:13
always more important with the books.
44:14
And then sometimes it was on TV that, you know, you always have
44:18
to be in the minds of the companions and really giving
44:21
them realistic reactions to things.
44:25
Can I ask because there's a there's a myth that does the
44:27
rounds about not setting the books from the Doctor's point of
44:30
view. Is that true?
44:34
I am. I certainly treat some extends.
44:38
I'm not sure. I don't think it was an absolute
44:41
prohibition, but I thought there was a point in the Virgin days
44:45
where it might have been. Yeah, I'm not sure.
44:50
I think that that's. I wouldn't say it was an
44:53
absolutely hard and fast rule, but it was it was a rule of
44:55
thumb that you know that it should stay a little bit
44:58
unknowable, that we should see in through the eyes of the
45:00
companions. I certainly remember in Jim
45:04
Morton as Eye of Heaven, there were scenes from the 4th
45:07
Doctor's point of view. So I think by the time the BBC
45:09
came along, if there ever was a rule, they they chucked that one
45:11
in the bin. Yeah, if it was, if it was ever
45:15
hard and fast rule, then that would have been the virgin days.
45:18
But even though I think would have would have let, as I said,
45:21
I think more of a rule for more of a recommendation, I think
45:23
they would have let you break it in the right way.
45:26
There's something in the crisis guidelines about avoid the new
45:31
where possible. So these books settle around
45:36
sort of 280 pages. Generally, how long does it take
45:42
to write? A book of that length, like or
45:44
are you given a specific amount of time?
45:46
This needs to be done by a dot. Well, yeah, you have a deadline
45:54
so you know when it has to be done by.
45:58
You know at the same time, the last.
46:00
If you can't do it better, then it takes me three months working
46:08
full time, full months of preference.
46:11
But I I'm quite slow compared to a lot of the other writers.
46:16
A lot of the other writers will tell you they're faster.
46:19
And also a lot of writers will do the first draft very quickly
46:23
and then spend time thinking with it.
46:25
And for the reason I can't do that, I have to do all my
46:30
drafts. If you know scene by scene, get
46:33
it all right before I can move on.
46:37
And other than that it's it depends on their schedule, how
46:40
long you actually get out, you know but a few and I had to
46:43
knuckle down and just just get it done in three months.
46:45
Conundrum I had about because they commissioned all of the IT
46:49
was the 4th look in a series of five and the Commission of five
46:52
together. Someone had six months to write
46:54
it. So that was, that was great.
46:56
With it being my first novel I've really had time to play
46:59
with that and I rubbed it out of order and pieced them together
47:02
and and and just had fun with it.
47:04
It was the second one when I really had to.
47:07
I'm not cool down and put the work in because I've only had
47:10
three. The the the authors that I've
47:13
spoken to, they go one or two ways with a deadline.
47:15
Some of them like the challenge of it and others absolutely just
47:19
fear them completely. I'm I'm just very methodical.
47:23
I know where the deadline is and I know how much I have to do
47:27
each day to meet the deadline and I just break it down like
47:29
that and and and I make sure that I get my work count done
47:33
each day. So it's you know some rather
47:36
than do a few words one day and a lot the next and you know I'm
47:40
working. I'm doing the same every day but
47:43
sometimes I'll get it done a couple of hours in the afternoon
47:45
off and some days I'll be working into the night.
47:48
I just. I just know what I've got to get
47:50
done. When it comes to that, I've been
47:53
incredibly nosy now, but it is the only way to learn when when
47:56
it comes to the the, the pitch, do you have to write like an
48:02
extensive? Plot out or is it sort of a one
48:06
page treatment. It was, oh, I'm trying to
48:14
remember because again, that will probably have changed with
48:17
the change of publisher and as as I got more experienced, I
48:23
mean certainly early on it would have been a short lot outline,
48:31
but then if they accepted that, then a much longer one which
48:35
they'd have signed off on. I'm trying to think if they ever
48:39
got to the point where we did without the longer outline.
48:42
I'm not sure that we did. I think I think up to the end of
48:46
the books, I think it was still a longer outline.
48:50
So they knew exactly what was happening and that kind of, I
48:54
know, hated doing them. And they sort of saw the worth
48:57
of the ones on his writing that I had everything planned out and
49:00
I knew where I was going. Do you ever, like, had the had
49:06
the a book you've been writing ever surprised you?
49:08
So like you've had, you've got your long outline and then in
49:12
the process of writing it, it deviates from that a little bit.
49:17
I mean, you can't deviate too far because you've still got to
49:19
get to the end, but you know you you write the outline in a
49:23
couple of weeks and then you've got to write the book.
49:25
So it'd be weird if anyway it didn't appear to you while you
49:28
were writing it. So you have to leave a bit of
49:30
space to to be able to pursue that.
49:35
I can't. I can't think of one that had a
49:39
big change. I don't think I could change the
49:41
ending of 1. Then the the last book that you
49:48
wrote in the BBC books ranges was Steelers of Dreams for the
49:54
new series Adventures. And obviously there had been a
49:57
sea of change by that point. The show was back.
50:02
The regulars were defined. As far as I know, the work was
50:07
sort of going through Cardiff as well for permission.
50:13
What what were like? What were the big differences of
50:16
writing sort of a range which is on its own and a range which is
50:19
part of a Doctor Who universe now?
50:24
Well that I mean that that was completely different.
50:27
You know they feel like in the range altogether that and that
50:29
one. That was one where they did
50:32
actually come to me and at the last minute because another book
50:35
had fallen through and so I had to write one them that one very
50:39
quickly. But they were shorter books than
50:41
before, which was a big thing because you were doing much you
50:46
know much briefer stories. I mean the the fact that it was
50:53
going through the Cardiff didn't make a big difference.
50:55
I had a round of notes from Cardiff On on the plot line, but
50:59
otherwise, perhaps because it was last minutes, I didn't have
51:01
much contact with them. I think some of the other
51:03
writers have more contact before.
51:05
I mean, they were supposed to send me some episodes, but they
51:07
didn't arrive in time. I saw a couple of scripts, but I
51:10
didn't have much contact with them.
51:14
I was writing characters that I hadn't seen and and at one
51:19
point, you know, every time we did the series started on TV.
51:22
And every time an episode came on, I learned something about
51:25
the characters I didn't know. And I had to go back in into
51:27
what I'd already written and tried to rewrite it to take
51:30
account of who they were to deliver it a week after Captain
51:33
Jack's first appearance and somehow didn't tell me he was
51:37
American or bisexual. Surprising details are to be
51:43
worked in at the last minute. So there was, yeah, there was,
51:50
there was all that that it felt like, you know, things things
51:54
were changing all the time. Otherwise the biggest difference
51:58
was it being shorter. I think it just, you know, lends
52:01
itself to a different sorts of story and the faster paced one.
52:04
But then, you know, of course, by the time it came out, that
52:07
was unlike anything that had happened before.
52:08
Because I've been working in this niche to, you know, to got
52:14
to hear fans my age that had grown up with the program and it
52:18
was this dedicated core of fans. And you had to go on, you know,
52:21
onto the dark corners of the Internet to see the reactions of
52:24
it. And then suddenly you've got
52:25
this thing that was everywhere and, you know, turning up in a
52:28
soloist and, you know, really felt like I've been part of
52:31
something huge. It was very strange I.
52:34
Was working for Gardener's Books at the time, which is I think
52:38
they're the the number one distributor of books in the UK
52:41
now. When those new series adventures
52:44
were going, I were topping all the charts they were selling
52:46
like the bucket loads compared to compared to sort of the BBC
52:50
ones before them, you know the the 8th Doctor of that it was,
52:54
it was extraordinary what the direction the books went in
52:57
then. It's and I do remember like my
53:03
biggest fear was we'd had, you know, look at books like The
53:05
Crooked World, which was so mature and you know, something
53:09
that kids could enjoy, but adults because absolutely enjoy.
53:11
I was really scared that the books were going to suddenly be
53:15
very child friendly and inaccessible.
53:19
And I think that was a fear that a lot of sort of the fans of the
53:21
The Book Ranges had. I remember reading The Steelers
53:25
of Dreams and it was such a smartly plotted book.
53:28
I was like, no, no, no, I'm in safe hands, like.
53:31
And it was doing that whole thing with the the sort of the
53:35
theme of identity. And I'm just working in all
53:38
these clever ideas. I was like, no, no, we're on a
53:41
sure path. Thank goodness.
53:45
Well, then I I I'm not sure how much time you have.
53:49
I was going to ask you a few questions about your Big Finish
53:51
work if you've got a little bit more time.
53:56
But let's round off the book. Talk with Do you have one book
54:02
that you are most proud of of all the document that you wrote?
54:07
I think it is The Crooked World and it's a very close thing.
54:10
Between that and the Wick Hunters, I think.
54:15
I think Crooked World wins because the Wick Hunters feels
54:17
like it cares stands on the shoulders of actual history if
54:21
you know what I mean. It's you know that that story
54:22
was already out there. There was a crooked rule feels
54:26
feels much more like mind there's more you know there's
54:30
more imagination from me in there.
54:32
So I think that I think that just hits it on that basis.
54:35
But they they would be the two that I'm really proud of and
54:37
it's you know the two that got the best reception obviously.
54:41
You know, when they're sort of cherry picking certain tie in
54:45
stories to be made for the TV series.
54:47
I was going please do the cricket world, please.
54:50
Could you imagine it would be extraordinary with the special
54:53
effects now? Yeah, just about.
54:55
Well, lads, you know, that would be the main, the, the.
54:56
It was a time when you couldn't even imagine it being done.
54:59
But then, because of course now they actually can.
55:02
I saw him on the front cover of that Doctor Who magazine.
55:05
And almost fainted. It was A and what my last
55:09
question is, do you have a set of regulars that you didn't ever
55:13
write for that you would have loved to have written for?
55:19
You know, between the books and the audios I've written for most
55:23
of them, it took me a lot of time to get around to season 19,
55:26
which which you feel is my season.
55:28
But you know, finally did that in in ABBC audio.
55:32
I think it's only like five or six companions.
55:37
I haven't written now, but one of them is Serge J Smith, which
55:40
feels like a big emission. So yeah, at some point I would
55:44
like to work for Sarah. I'll.
55:46
Send the emails out now. Well, thank you very much for
55:52
that. Moving on to Big Finish then.
55:58
One is how did that come to be? Because Father Vulcan hits.
56:04
It's about sort of 1015 in, isn't it, to the main range
56:10
nearly, yeah. It's either 12 or 1312.
56:12
I think I found Gary Russell. So I suppose a bit of nepotism
56:20
there and I need Gary largely from the books and you know,
56:23
from Doctor Who funded my general.
56:25
So I had his number and I heard what they were doing and I found
56:28
him up and said what you know, what do I have to do to write an
56:30
audio? And he said, well, we need some
56:32
strokes to historical. And absolutely, you've you've
56:37
already heard your shop's right and a brilliant historical.
56:41
Is it true that was supposed to be the 7th block for an ace
56:43
initially? Yeah.
56:45
I mean, I wrote an episode and 1/2 with the 7th block for an
56:47
ace, and I think it's in the back of one of the Big Finish
56:50
script books. The first.
56:51
The first episode. Yeah.
56:55
And then yeah, while I was writing that, I believe Buddy
56:58
Langford did the same thing as they heard about the useful.
57:01
I get a rustle and said can I be involved?
57:04
So there it owns me and says can you make it 7:00 to a Mel?
57:08
And I don't think it's hyperbole to say that was probably the
57:14
start of the Mel Renaissance, which has continued to this day.
57:20
But although I don't think anybody really looked at Mel
57:23
without anything but sort of taking the piss until Father
57:27
Vulcan here and suddenly she's there in the middle of like, a
57:30
historical story. In a dramatic role, you gave her
57:36
the dodo effect you know, from salvation.
57:40
Was that fun to do, though? Yeah, brilliant.
57:42
I mean, as I said before, that's that's something I enjoy doing
57:45
anyway. And to do it and have Bonnie
57:48
actually play the part because, you know, these these moments, I
57:51
was screaming she's, she's brilliant, you know, a bit of
57:54
Delta and the Banner Men, sort of sort of the verb voice.
57:57
But the writer is, the writer is Violet Elizabeth, which is a bit
58:03
frustrating. So we were just, you know,
58:08
knocking those edges off for it, just just just accentuating the
58:11
positive things about and leaving out the negative ones.
58:16
A lot of the writer sense of taking a different approach
58:19
where they you know make it a bit wetter but calm attention to
58:25
it and make it a bit self effacing about it so that you
58:27
know they cooperated those aspects back into the character.
58:32
But when I wrote to that one time I just I just get it to
58:35
them and just just focused on what was good about her and and
58:40
I think yeah she she was brilliant in that you know she
58:44
that was a great performance that really made it.
58:48
I. Don't think anybody was
58:49
expecting it either. That's why it was such a
58:51
marvellous surprise. And so to.
58:54
A pure historical Bang in the middle of season 24.
58:58
That was fantastic as well. What was interesting after that
59:04
was obviously she was in two comedies, wasn't she The one
59:06
Doctor and Bang, Bang, Boom. I think everybody thought oh OK,
59:09
so that was that was a one off. What was interesting was then
59:12
after that they took your blueprint and and ran with that,
59:17
which was really refreshing. You know and and you know, as I
59:20
say it happened. I don't know.
59:22
I don't know where it'll have started if I've been asked about
59:24
now from the beginning. So, you know, partly it happens
59:28
by accident that she, she ends up in a script that was intended
59:31
to somebody else. Yeah, I think.
59:35
I think it would have been the same approach I thought of from
59:38
the start. Well, was there ever an
59:41
opportunity to go to the studios and hear the stories being
59:44
recorded? Yes.
59:46
Yes, I did. On that one, Yeah.
59:48
I was really nervous about that because because I, you know, the
59:53
idea of the idea of actors having my script and judging it.
59:58
So we want to go into the studio.
1:00:01
Just just the way they brought it to life didn't feel like it
1:00:04
was hard, loads of tar. They just found like it was a
1:00:06
character target. So it was it was brilliant and
1:00:09
and there was still a lot of it was still quite early days for
1:00:12
the finish. There's a lot of buzz about
1:00:13
whether you know the fancy people doing interviews in the
1:00:17
in the green room. So it was all, it was all very
1:00:19
exciting. Yeah, something's to find out
1:00:22
what Lebanese last name was from Bonnie from Bonnie, because he
1:00:25
hadn't done before. I don't think there's any small
1:00:29
exaggerations. I say that when those maybe like
1:00:32
the 1st 50 main range big finishes came out, that was the
1:00:37
new Doctor Who then, and it was treated that way.
1:00:39
And those people playing companions were all going to
1:00:42
conventions as the current Doctor Who companions.
1:00:45
And it was kind of a big deal. Yeah, yeah, there's been nothing
1:00:49
like it before. I just just just certainly have
1:00:53
or do you know, one of those people back then, they can play
1:00:55
the characters that they hadn't played since the TV show?
1:00:57
I mean, thinking about that recently, I think John
1:01:01
personally pioneered it. I think he was the first person
1:01:04
to really go back into character, you know, sometimes
1:01:07
unofficially just by putting the Cape on and doing ACD and.
1:01:10
But that's that's about 1990. He starts doing that, Oh no, no,
1:01:16
sorry, A bit earlier than that because of course he did the
1:01:18
Ultimate Adventure and he did a couple of things before that.
1:01:20
So yeah, mid 80s he starts doing that and then by 198 we've got
1:01:25
we've got everyone back, we just get everybody better.
1:01:27
The character again one one of the big throws for me was was
1:01:32
writing down and was his first Princess Polly in three years.
1:01:40
Yeah, that and and again, that was quite a serious historical,
1:01:45
wasn't it as well. So again, it was nothing like
1:01:47
you were getting during that period of Doctor Who, which felt
1:01:50
refreshing. But there was a day when I was
1:01:53
asked, good enough the witch chances really.
1:01:57
Do you ever talk to someone about doing historical story,
1:01:59
then then the they think the witch hunts as well.
1:02:04
Do you? Ever sort of collaborate with
1:02:05
the actors? Is there is there any dialogue
1:02:07
between the actors of saying yeah I'd like to do this or and
1:02:12
no, I don't know at all, no round self conflicts do that.
1:02:15
So actually speak to them beforehand Tom the the
1:02:28
recordings on it. So I don't think they're going
1:02:29
to particularly question anything.
1:02:31
I wanted to change anything either.
1:02:35
And then I'll have to ask you about one of my all time
1:02:39
favourite Big Finish characters and that is Tracy Charles Klein.
1:02:47
So what was this a one shot character or was this for the
1:02:52
purpose of telling a series of stories?
1:02:56
It was a one shot character and in and in the original online I
1:02:59
said if I could use the master but they were using him in soon
1:03:03
before I just needed somebody from out of time that was was
1:03:09
trying to change history of college.
1:03:11
When I come and master, I came up with this idea of that's
1:03:16
complicated somebody from the timeline that will be creative.
1:03:21
I've just covered Cold. It's on Finish Big and we were
1:03:23
trying to figure out the plot as we were going.
1:03:25
It was very complicated. I did that myself, Remember
1:03:29
walking down itself and back evening just with the companion,
1:03:32
just simply if she does that, then that it's happening and I
1:03:37
just trying to finally nailing it all down so it made some sort
1:03:41
of sense. To say that character was a hit
1:03:45
would be a bit of an understatement.
1:03:48
And then obviously, she came back for a trilogy of
1:03:50
adventures. Yeah, Tracy was just amazing.
1:03:53
And that was another one. In the end, I was at the
1:03:55
recording and I can first see she was recording, recording.
1:04:00
Gary and I were there. Justin, Harm and Gary just said,
1:04:02
yeah, we'll bring her back. But then it it, it took a lot
1:04:06
longer than I expected because yes, one of the stories fall
1:04:11
through in the meantime, yeah, but eventually we got there and
1:04:16
yeah, John Haysworth picked the character up and said, yeah,
1:04:18
well, that's to be true, let's, let's get a reward.
1:04:21
So this. That that trilogy of having, you
1:04:26
know, a Nazi travelling with the Doctor was extraordinary.
1:04:31
Have you? I mean, you obviously met her,
1:04:33
but you hear her on the the special features and a lot of
1:04:36
them are actors going, you know, we love working with Big Finish
1:04:39
and we'd love the lunches and things like this.
1:04:41
Tracy Charles just goes. No, I love this character.
1:04:44
I like playing this evil character.
1:04:47
Write me more Big Finish blinks like she loved it.
1:04:51
She did like the evil climb more than the good one.
1:04:54
I mean John he's been told me that she when she got the
1:04:57
scripts from one of the ones where suffered in a rope and she
1:04:59
was you know she was being the companion and she didn't know
1:05:03
how they thought that she was going to end and she apparently
1:05:05
she she phoned John quite quite concerned that they were going
1:05:08
to make it too good. We said don't worry in the in
1:05:10
the next study you steal the TARDIS and try to recreate the
1:05:13
full right. She said.
1:05:15
Oh, great, it's still. One of the best trilogies I've
1:05:18
ever done. I think it was fantastic.
1:05:23
You've done a a number of companion chronicles as well.
1:05:29
Did you have a a favorite of the ones you did there as he's still
1:05:34
still very fond of that first one.
1:05:36
I did 3D inside, they're all they're all Poly basically
1:05:41
sometimes with Jamie. Yeah, I'm still very fond of the
1:05:43
first one because it was the first earth Poly story I do the
1:05:49
The second one gave me the opportunity to bring the
1:05:53
solutions in. So from that third one, not so
1:05:57
much to be honest, doesn't quite come off so.
1:06:01
Did you did you have any input in the realisation of the
1:06:05
solutions? And I know that didn't sound
1:06:06
like that. Honestly.
1:06:07
What are you doing? And I would have written no, I
1:06:10
would have just written a description of the units to
1:06:13
sound slightly mechanical and and talking through water and
1:06:17
sort of came out. And I, and I know you sort of
1:06:22
dipped your toes in sort of other ranges as well.
1:06:24
There's a Vienna one as well, isn't there?
1:06:26
And otherwise, are you asked for these or is there just like a?
1:06:31
I don't know a list of all these ranges that you can pitch for.
1:06:35
How does how does it all work with with doing one shot
1:06:37
stories? Well yeah, you tend to be asked.
1:06:41
So yeah, it just tends to be through contact.
1:06:44
So I mean I don't yeah I mean I haven't been asked for a while
1:06:48
but big finish. So it's just the independence
1:06:51
who's producing and whether it's somebody who's you know who's
1:06:54
got me in the in the film books of.
1:06:56
Yeah Vienna. I was.
1:06:57
I was approached for and Gallifright, yeah.
1:07:01
I think that's mostly how it works now with Big Finish, yeah.
1:07:05
Is it the same there with the like, with the companions you
1:07:08
were writing for in the books? Is there like a Bible on the
1:07:10
series? And thought, this is the tone
1:07:13
we're going for. This is the sort of story we
1:07:15
want has this big finish on, yeah.
1:07:19
We've been finished. We're doing, say, Gallifrey as a
1:07:22
as a one off or Vienna as a one off.
1:07:25
Yeah, it'll be up to. They'll have something in mind
1:07:28
that the one they want to know. And I suppose it'll vary by who
1:07:30
the producer is and because, you know, there are a lot of
1:07:32
different producers and yeah, I don't even know who to pitch to,
1:07:37
to be honest. And but it will depend on who
1:07:39
the producer is, whether whether they have and how, how much
1:07:43
continuity they want between the episodes.
1:07:47
I mean, obviously they know that they're working with people.
1:07:51
They know the characters from TV, so they'll they'll they'll
1:07:54
tell us what we need to know to fit in with what they're doing.
1:07:59
You're speaking to somebody now that's never written anything
1:08:02
for anything. So I'm going to ask the same
1:08:04
question about the audios as I did about the novels.
1:08:09
Is it like a one page treatment? Do you have to do a scene by
1:08:11
scene breakdown? How?
1:08:13
How does it work with the audios?
1:08:15
I think that possibly varies as well with different different
1:08:21
producers. How much I actually need to see?
1:08:27
I don't know about actual scene by scene breakdown, but usually
1:08:30
episode by episode breakdown would would be quite normal.
1:08:35
I remember with the there's a wonderful book out by Benjamin
1:08:39
Cook called Big Finish the The Inside Story which details
1:08:44
behind the scenes on like the 1st 50 main range releases and
1:08:47
some of the spin off ranges as well and in some detail I think.
1:08:52
I think it was questioned when it was released because there's,
1:08:56
you know, some of the legal battles that occurred and all
1:08:58
the dramas. I'm very pleased to say that the
1:09:01
two you were involved with were like the smoothest rides they
1:09:03
had. I think that's first fifty, you
1:09:06
know, from from the from script to execution.
1:09:14
Steve, thank you very much. I mean you, you have written
1:09:17
some of my favorite Doctor Who books.
1:09:18
You have written some of my favorite audios.
1:09:23
I'm not sure how much you're allowed to talk about with your
1:09:25
cutaway comics venture at the moment, but if you are, would
1:09:29
you would you please let people know what you're being involved
1:09:32
in at the moment? Yeah, I was going to say, as I
1:09:37
said before, but was that before you started?
1:09:39
It's. Before we start, oh, I could
1:09:42
tell that yes, at the moment I'm writing The Happiness Patrol.
1:09:47
Well, I say I'm writing I have written a script for the
1:09:50
Happiness Patrol for for Cuts away comics and we've got 87
1:09:53
working on some art samples for that.
1:09:56
So that should be going to growing up on Kickstarter pretty
1:09:59
soon. And it's it's a sequel to the
1:10:03
story. It's called Happiness Patrol,
1:10:05
Unhappy ever after, and it's about what happens after the
1:10:09
Doctor brings down an entire society and disappears
1:10:12
overnight. It's it's Happiness Patrol.
1:10:16
Particular favorite of yours. Yeah.
1:10:19
It really is just just it's something a bit different than
1:10:22
than quirky and fun and and and this this one dropped into my
1:10:28
lap really because Andrew Carmel was originally pencilled in for
1:10:32
and I don't think he had the time to do it.
1:10:34
So I'm doing that. I didn't think I was getting
1:10:36
this and then the Garrard fond up and and surprised me the you
1:10:43
know the Happiness Patrol is open again.
1:10:45
So yeah it's been it's it's been really fun to build and I love
1:10:48
the story. One of the unusual features of
1:10:53
the story is that most of the characters survived at the end
1:10:55
of it. So you know I've had this great
1:11:00
opportunity to take all the characters that we already know
1:11:03
and take them into the future and I've really enjoyed working
1:11:08
on them. So yeah, I mean it's been it's
1:11:11
been just 18 for a long time. But but things are happening
1:11:14
now. I've seen, I've seen Aid Simmons
1:11:17
design for the for the Candy Man, which is brilliant.
1:11:21
Is it Adrian Salmon doing the art?
1:11:23
He's such a brilliant artist. Yeah, So hopefully, well,
1:11:28
hopefully everyone will be seeing a bit of that soon
1:11:30
because that's the next stage that we're going to get some of
1:11:33
AIDS art out there and get the Kickstarter going and hopefully
1:11:39
we'll we'll get to the finished book soon after that.
1:11:42
What I'm going to have to do is because one of the biggest
1:11:43
surprises of doing the Hamster podcast for the TV show is the
1:11:48
amount of people that have come on.
1:11:51
And when I asked them what's your favorite Doctor Who story,
1:11:54
they say the Happiness Patrol. I mean, it both baffles and
1:11:57
delights me that they put that as their number one.
1:12:00
But some of them, it's like where they came in.
1:12:02
Others, they just love the morality of it.
1:12:05
Others, they like their sort of the campus and the comedy and
1:12:07
the drama of it. So when when that Kickstarter
1:12:10
starts, I'll pop, I'll pop this into you again and I'll.
1:12:14
I will let them all know because I know they'll all be jumping in
1:12:16
with some money to get some more of those.
1:12:20
You want me to stick at the time for looking a bit cheap But I
1:12:22
think if you know if you learn to look past that it's just got
1:12:25
some brilliant ideas and amazing dialogue in it And and I guess
1:12:30
it would be a lot you know an early story for a lot of people
1:12:32
because as I remember it the the 25th anniversary and the
1:12:36
publicity around remembrance of the dialects brought a lot of
1:12:40
people in that year. And then and then you know I've
1:12:42
been I've been seeing the crab. Please help me.
1:12:44
And that's your next story isn't it?
1:12:46
That's you. That's you.
1:12:48
I concept early in Planet Story that would have, you know,
1:12:51
hopefully grabbed a lot of those new viewers and kept them.
1:12:56
I'm sure it's going to be a massive success.
1:12:58
I can't wait to see and I'll certainly be chipping in with my
1:13:00
own money too. Steve, can I just say thank you
1:13:04
very much for your time. It's been such a pleasure to
1:13:06
explore all the all the books and the audios with you talking
1:13:12
to you.