Latest / Executive Alliance Podcast / E7: Julie East Coaching
Transcript
- Rebecca Snyder: Welcome everyone. I am delighted to have Julie East in the studio today for our podcast. Welcome, Julie. Julie: Thank you. Rebecca Snyder: so you are an executive coach, a leadership consultant, and a former HR exec. And I think part of what I admire so much about your leadership style is is the way that you are able to sort of bring the disparate pieces of people together and really ensure that they reach their full potential. So as a as a leadership style, I think that's so important. You've worked for large organizations like Amazon and the Gap and the Atlas Restaurant Group. And now you have your own coaching and consulting business that supports executives, Julie: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: teams, and fractional HR. And let's not forget you're also the co-chair of our mentoring program at Julie: That's right. One of my favorite jobs. Rebecca Snyder: Yes, it's a great one. So well, let's get started with all that sort of disparate experience. tell me how you became the leader you are today. Was there some specific experiences or mentors along your Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: journey that you can point to to say, yes, that was a turning point for me. Julie: Yes, absolutely. You know, it's interesting. I remember very distinctly when mentorship became a really important part of my life. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: And that has to do back when I was probably mid-career with Gap Inc., Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Julie: working in the employee relations department and serving like thousands and thousands of employees. And I was mentoring a newer Head of sorry, HR generalist in New York City. And she was rough around the edges as they could come. Being an HR, that was not the the most sought-after skill, I guess you could say, but she definitely, you know, was able to move things forward in her store. And she had sought me out as a mentor, and we worked very well together, and it wasn't maybe five years later that our paths crossed again. And this time she actually and she her she had done very well in her career and she had been promoted to a senior director role. And at that time I was a director and she had an opening in her department and I decided that I would love to work with her again. And so our roles switched and she became Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: my boss, but she also became my mentor. And I was at a place in my career where I wasn't quite sure, is HR still my thing? And is this really where I want to be? And she did such a wonderful job of challenging me, asking me, you know, the tough questions about where I really saw myself. She helped me to regain my confidence. And that whole experience really showed me the value and the importance of mentoring. And you know, fast forward many years later now as a certified executive coach, I definitely draw into some of those things that I learned from her as my I would call her my executive coach or my mentor at the time. And so it's about helping to accept people where they are, but also caring enough about them not to keep them stuck where they are. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Julie: So that has informed a lot of who I am as a leader today. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. And I love that your role's kind of reversed. And I think that's so Julie: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: important in the mentoring relationship that, you know, and that's something we harp on at Executive Alliance that everyone Julie: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: has something to give and everyone has something to receive. Julie: Yes, absolutely. Rebecca Snyder: and you know, the meeting actually I want to dive in a little bit more to the meeting people where they are, because that Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: is not as easy as it trips off the tongue so easily, like we'll meet you where you are. Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: But that can be really difficult. And and in that example that you shared, that that when when your mentor was a store manager, she was a little rough around the edges, maybe a little Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: bit more forthright. So like meeting her where she was probably wasn't easy. So how do you how do you Julie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: sort of adroitly do that and keep the respect of everyone involved? Julie: Right. Well, a large part of it has to do with thinking about impact and pointing out impact of someone else's skill set. And is that really where they want to be going? Is that really the impact that they want to have? And in coaching, we hold the mirror up, right? So that is a a big part of. being able to discuss, you know, here's what I'm observing, here's what I'm seeing, what are you seeing? And are those things that you're doing getting you what you really want? And, you know, sometimes the answer is yes, but sometimes the answer is no. And that opens the door wide open for further exploration around what is it that that then that you really want to do and what sort of behaviors do you think might help to shift you to be able to get more of what you really want out of relationships, out of leadership, etc. Rebecca Snyder: Well and and I think executive coaching and and really this whole piece is not n necessarily about someone's work performance, but it's about how they're integrating their lives and their work lives into their home life and back and forth. As you kind of Julie: Yes. That's right. That's right. Rebecca Snyder: you appear wherever you are in all of your glorious mess. Julie: That's true. Rebecca Snyder: and so like when and and I wanna ask about that self awareness piece because when someone's holding up that mirror It's not always you're seeing your blind spots sometimes and I think that's in your current role and your coaching role, that's part of your job to really show that up. How do you and how do you deal when someone doesn't want to see those blind spots? Like Julie: Mm-hmm. That's a great question. Well, honestly, sometimes what it takes is doing what we call a 360 evaluation, right? Where you know you think about if a leader is here in the organization, there's people above them, people beside them as their peers, people below them as their director ports, other stakeholders around that circle, and getting going out and getting the data to help. The person who's being coached, understand how they are perceived and what sort of results they're getting can be really instrumental in shifting somebody's mindset to be more open to feedback and to realize, you know, I didn't realize when I do this, this is how I'm perceived, or I didn't realize that behavior actually causes people to see me this way or causes people to be resistant to me when in fact what I'm really trying to do is recruit them to be on my team. And share a common vision. So that is, you know, one of the many the 360 tool is one of the many and probably one of my favorite ways of actually getting that feedback. And I I can do that with an assessment, you know, a online assessment, but actually my favorite way to do it is through what we call a verbal 360. And that is where the client actually picks, you know. again people representative of that 360 and then I go and have a 20 minute conversation. I ask them, what's what is something that this leader does really well? What's one thing that if they were to do differently would make a big impact on their overall effectiveness? And then what other advice do you have for this leader? And that question, the other advice is often where the floodgate opens a little bit and I really start to get some great data for the client. My job then is to you know, put all of that data together in a way that's confidential. It protects the anonymity of those who've given feedback and present it to the client in a way that is digestible and also points them towards a goal setting, right? So what do we want to take away? What is the thing that we want to work on from this experience? Rebecca Snyder: I love how you're using it as data as opposed to because it can feel very personal, you know, Julie: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: and when you're thinking about your leadership journey or how you're showing up in different spaces, it's you, it's very fraught, you know, like it it can feel very vulnerable. And Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: I think by pulling that back and and distancing a little bit and talking about behaviors and impact. Julie: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: and roles as opposed to Rebecca really needs to do blah blah blah, which feels much more invasive. Julie: Mm-hmm. Or or even worse, Rebecca is fill in the blank, right? Very Rebecca Snyder: yes. Julie: judgy, very sh you know, judgment oriented, feeling very evaluative when Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: instead, like you said, it really is about behavior. And does that behavior drive the outcome that the person is looking for? Rebecca Snyder: And so I feel like that's such a systems approach. And and Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: before we get into systems approach, just to close the thought on on you are not you know, like you're not one thing. When you talk about behaviors, I think that does open it up to say you can contain multitudes, you can behave Julie: Mm-hmm. That's right. Rebecca Snyder: really empathetically or really judgmentally or whatever the case might be and Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: still not feel like, you are blankety blank. and so Julie: That's right. Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: that's I th I think just as we all go through our journeys to remember that Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: it's behaviors and outcomes and goals. Julie: That's right. And where that mindset intersects on this diagonal is the whole concept of emotional intelligence. And the first two areas that we look at in emotional intelligence, one is self-awareness. And is the person even aware of when they're behaving a certain way? And then the second component is once they're aware, are they able to make a definitive decision in the moment? As to whether or not they're gonna follow through with an impulse that they have, right? So self-control is what that's called. And it is a lot about impulse control and remembering, gosh, if I raise my voice or develop a tone that is condescending, am I keeping this person engaged or am I putting that person into, you know, their brain into a threat mode where they're gonna lose their ability to fully engage with me because they're worried about protecting themselves. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Julie: So it's very interesting. There's a lot of psychology that goes into it. I try not to over-psychologize it because it can Rebecca Snyder: Ha ha ha. Julie: be that be that very quickly, right? But that whole notion of self-awareness and self-control is critical as foundation to this idea around behaviors. Rebecca Snyder: And I think actually as as I talk more and more with with women leaders, it's usually about self control, regulating your own impulses. Like Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: I think that's one of the crucial components of being a successful leader is like holding space for everyone else to freak out. Like you can't freak out because everyone else around you is freaking out. And so Julie: Yes, right, right. Yes. Rebecca Snyder: tell me a i does that resonate with you? Is that Julie: yes, I I call that being the adult in the room. So when you Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Julie: get to a certain point place in your leadership trajectory, it no more are you allowed the freedom to freak out yourself when you have X number of people who are depending on you. And you may do that behind closed doors or with your trusted confidant or with your coach, but you have, you know, you carry a mantle, if you will, of leadership that really requires in order for things to go, you know, as well as they possibly can, that requires that leader to stay present, allowing people to vent or freak out or whatever you want to call it, but not jumping into that fray and being able to listen non-evaluatively so that people feel safe and can Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Julie: people will get through that emotional reaction much quicker if they have a safe place to be able to express themselves and to move on. From that point. Rebecca Snyder: Mm, that makes a lot of sense. And so but when you're in the middle of like you're the leader, you're trying to hold your mantle tight and protect everyone around Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: you, what are your strategies for for self regulation? Julie: For self-regulation. So we said we had a little bit of a blip there. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah, like so like how do you not freak out? Mm-hmm. Julie: self-regulation. So that that is rooted in self-awareness, right? So when I'm working with a client who struggles to fully understand how they're feeling in any given moment, and that sounds really weird when I say that. Like, how do you mean not knowing how I feel in any given moment? But I myself have been there before. I have been a leader and not understood what was happening with my mind and my body and why I started sweating or whatever it might be. And what is that showing me? Right. So that is a part of self-awareness is to pay attention to what's going on with your breath, with your body, with you know, whether it's becoming fidgety or sweaty or any number of different reactions that Can happen when the stress starts to rise. So Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: that is self-awareness. That is, okay, what is my body telling me right now? Why am I feeling this way? So by first, firstly assigning a client to really focus on, say, for a couple of week period, those reactions and writing Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Julie: down, journaling about it. And that some people don't like to journal, they just want to. You know, remember it, that's fine, put it in your phone, whatever. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: But it's a great technique for people to really start to highlight, that's why I'm feeling why I am. That's the self-awareness that I need in order to be able to then also put my attention not just on myself, but the other people around me. And when I can jump from me, me, me, to others, others, others, then I can regulate myself in a way that's going to get me that outcome that I want as opposed to just reacting, perhaps maybe how I've habitually done my entire life. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. I think when we're talking about that shift from me to others, that's Julie: Mm. Rebecca Snyder: where it goes from sort of from an individual to kind of an organizational mindset. And you've Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: worked in some really big spaces. Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: So how do you how do leaders really influence that organizational culture? Because, you know, like you're one person. Julie: Right. Rebecca Snyder: and you're not touching all the people in an organization. But tell Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: me a little bit about your kind of philosophy or thought about how leaders influence the organizational culture. Julie: Right. Well, and you had mentioned something even before we started our recording today about how, you know, culture starts at the very top of the organization. And I Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: agree with that very strongly. Because if I am an employee, a mid-level employee, or even a higher level employee, I'm always looking at that person above to see how are they going to react? How are they going to handle this? You know, what sort of outcome is going to be as a result of this stress that maybe they're receiving. From the CEO or the president of the organization. So there's several components that go into that. You know, one is leaders need to be trained on how to communicate vision and how to communicate when times are tough. And sometimes that involves even someone who's an expert in communication, you know, corporate communication, providing talking points so that Leaders are on the same page. They're saying the same message, right? If you Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Julie: talk to this person and this person, this other area of the company, they will have heard the same message from their senior leader delivered in a way that is, you know, empathetic but also objective. So I think that's a really important part. And that's where in my experience, because I come at the work from an HR standpoint, but also as a coaching standpoint, where the two I think intersect really nicely. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: Being in HR all of these years, I've had such great exposure to really good communication teams because I was often a part of that. I was often in the know earlier than other people. So your the HR teams support those higher level leaders in making sure that the messaging that they're delivering is in alignment with what the company would have or with, you know, in a way that is done so that employees can digest it as opposed to you know, God forbid a leader saying, This is what they're telling me I have to say, right? Which just cr Rebecca Snyder: That always feels bad. Julie: it it's very bad when that happens. So so I think the what I would say, you know, again, for any of the listeners who are high level leaders, thinking about how do you rely on your HR partner? And are you looking to them to give you feedback? Are you looking for their insights into how to communicate, how did I communicate, so that the message is consistent, it's aligned, and employees can, you know, they may not like it, but at least they're being communicated with and the company is not trying to hide anything. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. It feels like that self awareness is so critical because really in in that instance, like the HR department is sort of reflectively listening or or pushing back Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: information to the to the leader to say this is what you might want to anticipate the reactions of Julie: Yes. Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: you know frontline staff or mid level staff 'cause I think sometimes leaders can get isolated. So over and above Julie: Mm-hmm. yes. Rebecca Snyder: talking to your HR department, how Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: do you have suggestions or ways that that leaders can kind of step out of that bubble? Julie: Well, it is, you know, I guess I would say being open, being an open book to different people's perspectives. You know, HR is only one perspective in a multitude of data points that a leader can pay attention to. But HR in most cases, you know, depending on the person and their background, an HR partner comes into that setting already having a big focus on making sure. the employees of the rank and file are treated with respect, Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: given the right level of information, especially in when times are difficult and maybe there are layoffs going on. you know, I know there's been so many companies that have experienced that over the past couple of years. so and I think HR has a special place at that table, but that doesn't be that's not the only place, right? It can also be that high level leaders direct reports, finding out from them. So Tell me, what did you hear from your team? Did they feel that the communication was adequate for them to know what's really going on, or at least to feel as though they've been given the right level of information? There may be more information that sometimes can't be shared. So, Rebecca Snyder: Right. Julie: you know, it is it's a mixture of different data points that that leader can seek out. And I found that along with emotional intelligence, one of the most what separates I think a good leader from a great leader is a leader who is constantly asking for feedback. And that Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Julie: is not easy to do, right? Because sometimes it's an ego arrow right into your heart when you hear Rebecca Snyder: Sure. Julie: something that you really didn't want to hear. But the more a leader gets used to asking for feedback and asking from a variety of places, the more they can sort of build that true humility around, okay. No one's always gonna agree with me, but I can learn from this. I can grow from this. And ideally that leader, a a great leader, never stops growing. You know, they're always interested to hear what else can I do? What could I do differently? What could I do better? What should I stop doing? You know, there is a Exactly. Yes, yes. Rebecca Snyder: That sounds very much like the three sixty questions that you're asking. So like great leaders kind of are constantly doing their own version of a three sixty evaluation. Is that one way to think of it? Julie: In a way, and I was gonna say, you may have heard of this before. It's a it's been around for a long time, but there's a feedback model called start, stop, continue. And that's simply where if I was asking you, Rebecca, for feedback on my performance, you know, in a mentor session, I might say, I wanna use the start, stop, continue. I'd like you to tell me what I should start doing that I didn't do. What should I stop doing? That you think was not effective. And then what should I continue doing that was effective? Right. So start, stop, continue. And it's a really robust way to get feedback. And it's it sort of depersonalizes it to a point so that Rebecca Snyder: Sure. Julie: the leader may be less challenged to receive the feedback, but also this the person who's being asked for feedback will be less maybe shy to share their true point of view. Rebecca Snyder: Well, it's three things. So you can th like you can think of three thing, you know, three aspects. Julie: Exactly. Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: You don't go off on tangents. Julie: Mm. Rebecca Snyder: and that feels very effective. Julie: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: so I wanted to go on to managing versus coaching because you've Julie: Mm. Rebecca Snyder: spent a lot of your career suggesting management styles, managing other people, and Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: now you're you're coaching on the regular. Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: So were there seismic shifts in doing that? I feel like you've always had sort of a coaching, you must have always had sort of a coaching approach in your management style. But is that true? Julie: Yeah, well, Rebecca Snyder: Is that just my perception? Julie: it's so funny that you asked that. So I thought I always had a coaching approach in my leadership style. And it turns out I when I went through my coaching school to become a certified executive coach and I learned what true coaching is, I realized that I had not been truly coaching. I had simply been telling people what to do with a smile on my face. Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: Well at least it felt good. Okay. Julie: Yeah. So what what I learned, and this was so eye-opening at the time, and now it's second nature, but at the time I learned that coaching was really asking a series of open-ended questions to help a person solve their own problem rather than me giving them advice or direction on how to solve it. And there's so many benefits to asking open-ended questions because like for example, the person who is Being asked those questions will have much more ownership over the solution if they come up with a solution themselves, as opposed to being told, well, you should do this, right? Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: It also enables them much more creativity on not only what they need to do to solve the problem, but how they're going to get there. And again, the coach's job can be to sit and listen and ask questions such as, so what have you thought about so far? What else comes to mind when you think about that problem? And any staying with that, saying, hmm okay, and what else? What else can you think of? And maybe asking that question a few different times. It feels kind of awkward when you're doing it, when you're coaching, but to the person who's receiving those questions, it can be very freeing and really help them to tap into creative parts of the brain that they hadn't they had ideas they hadn't even come up with before. And Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: once a person has decided, I think I'm gonna do this. And now the coach shifts to a more detail-oriented coaching that can be questions like, so what items do you think need to be on your game plan to get this done? By when do you think is reasonable to have this done? Who else do you need to access or resource to help you? And then what do you need from me to help you? Right? So Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: so that that what I reviewed just now is actually something that a colleague of mine and I, we created a coaching course for leaders, for managers, to help them adopt a more of a coaching style because there are so many benefits to doing it that way. Rebecca Snyder: Well tell me a little bit A, I I do wanna know more about the course 'cause I remember when you first launched it and it occurs to me that I don't know if you're still doing it. So Julie: Yes, we are. Rebecca Snyder: does and is it still online or or how does it work? Tell us let's type it. Julie: Yep. So we we thought yeah, we thought about put doing it like you know, recording ourselves and putting it on an LMS platform, but we find that there is so much rich discussion just going through the course live. And so we do a lot of smaller group conversations and practices. So we've decided to keep it as is. we actually do have a a course coming up in the fall. we do it probably twice a year now. I would say. Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Julie: But it's people walk away like their mindset has been really shifted from I thought I was a great leader, but now this is just another set of tools that I can add into my toolbox that help me be even more well-rounded. So I don't just have to be telling, giving advice, you know, giving direction, but I can also use these open-ended questions to help my individual direct reports or whoever that might be solve the problem on their own. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Well, and that brings me to sort of the next thing that strikes me is like what do you think you would have brought? How would how would your leadership journey be different if you had been coaching as a manager as opposed Julie: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: to smilingly giving advice as a manager? Julie: I think yes. Well, and in my case, I had two constituents, two groups of constituents, one being my own direct reports. And I think that I would have had I have had started that earlier, I would have been able to develop them more quickly. Because again, when they're creating their own solutions, they're also developing, which is really cool. But as a HR partner, I also had not, you know, throughout my career, I'd been delivering that advice with a smile on my face. I would have also been able to develop the partners that I worked with in operations over the years to solve their problems a little bit more quickly and also to not be quite so heavily reliant on HR to tell them how Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: to do things, to tell them how to deal with a performance problem or tell them how to you know, deal with a morale problem in their location. Rebecca Snyder: Because I it feels like in the moment that sort of coaching aspect of we're gonna talk through this, we're going to ask these open-ended questions, it feels like it takes so much time. And Julie: Yes, yes. Rebecca Snyder: so But in the long run, like when you look with the with with a long range view, you're developing people so they don't need you as much. But how do you kind of deal with that push pull of like, right now I don't have the time for a two hour conversation? Julie: Right, exactly. So how do you think you'd do that? you're Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Julie: absolutely right. There are times when it is not appropriate, 100%. And one one of the times that I've been able to identify is if there's only one right answer, then I'm just gonna tell you what you need to know. Right. also if you tell me I don't want to be coached right now, I just need you to tell me the answer. Then I'm gonna do what you need me to do. Because otherwise it's gonna be an exercise in frustration for both of us. Rebecca Snyder: You know, I remember years ago I used to do a lot of mediation in the inclusive model, which is a lot of open ended questions, folding the framework. Julie: Uhhuh. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: And I vividly remember my daughter being like, Mom, don't mediate me right now. I just wanna, you know, I like I just wanna tell you this or I just wanna get an answer. And you're right, like somehow Julie: That's hilarious. Rebecca Snyder: always know your audience and what the Julie: That's right. Rebecca Snyder: end role is. So Julie: That sounds like my husband, he's like always telling me, take your HR hat off. I'm like, I can't, it's stuck. Rebecca Snyder: It's right there, it's all the time. But you know, I and also I was talking to to Diana Emerson of Emerge who we had on on the show last week, and Julie: Uh-huh. Rebecca Snyder: a lot of what she was talking about was the idea that you know, you're here for a short period of time and you're developing either the person or the organization so it they can be sustainable and they can move forward without you. And so that sort of feels very Julie: Yes. Yes. Rebecca Snyder: similar. Julie: I it is, definitely. It is. And and that's also the same mindset that I bring to my fractional HR roles. I have a in addition to coaching, I also join executive teams on a part time basis when that me either they can't afford a full time CHRO or they just need some strata some people's strategy. And the idea is not to make myself indispensable. Right. But to over time really teach them and help them to create the culture on their own that they want and to execute on people strategies that help their staff to become engaged and remain engaged. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Well and and so I wanna head to that idea of of HR at the strategy table because Julie: Mm. Rebecca Snyder: it is I think sometimes people look at at the HR function as someone who's always saying no or like what about this pesky rule that we have to comply with, like almost as a barrier. Julie: yes. Yes. Rebecca Snyder: So talk to me I 'cause that must also pain you for you to so I so Julie: It does pain me greatly, actually. Rebecca Snyder: Tell me about HR as part of a strategy and why it should Julie: Okay. Rebecca Snyder: be included instead of kind of swept aside. Julie: Yeah, well, and I would first of all say recently I had this example of a client had had a HR person who was constantly telling them no. And I actually saw this in playing out one day and she was like, No, you can't do that. So I pulled the owner aside and said, Listen, this is a well-meaning HR person who just doesn't understand how to communicate. We should never HR should never be telling you no. HR should be laying out the business case, right? For the risk in some cases, or compliance risk, legal risk, whatever it might be. But the business owner should really be deciding if they're going to do something or not. They're the ones Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Julie: who have to take on the risk. They're the ones who would have to pay for the risk if it were to come to a legal situation and they were to get sued or need a settlement. So I try really hard to make sure when I'm working with my clients that I don't ever say, no, you can't do that. Let's just talk about what the potential outcomes could be. Rebecca Snyder: I like that. And so is that when when you're when you're at the table with in that C suite kind of conversation Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: and you're talking about long range strategy, are there other pieces of HR that normally are discounted that you like to bring to the table? Julie: I would say there are parts of HR that are heavily leaned into that I think sometimes take up too much space. Sometimes I think there is such a focus on the administration and the compliance piece that that's the only thing that leaders, executive leaders think HR can do. Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Julie: And so a part of what I do is educate around what A people strategy could look like. And Rebecca Snyder: Right. Julie: it is all about being in service to the business. To me, I don't want to do HR for the sake of HR. I want to do HR for the sake of growing the business and practicing HR in a way that actually helps that business to increase revenue. And so we know there's so many studies, I can't quote any of them right now, but so many studies about how. Employees who feel that they have a career path, that they're being developed, that they their employer is loyal to them, all of those things create an employee who want to really give what we refer to as that discretionary effort, right? That's an Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Julie: older term that comes from the what I call the olden days of when we talked about engagement surveys. Engagement surveys can measure. The discretionary effort that an employee will give based on how they score their feelings about the organization and about working there. So the more the company gives to the employee, the more the employee in nine times out of 10 will give to the employer. There's always going to be a few bad actors that you know we need to work with, try to help improve or else exit them from the organization. But those remaining 90%. You know, if you have them fully engaged giving that discretionary effort, what does that do for your business? It does great Rebecca Snyder: bon. Julie: things, right? It really can make a huge and being out of the retail environment, there was a statement that I had heard a long time ago that said the highest degree of your customer engagement will be equal to the lowest engaged employee that you have. So if you think about the Rebecca Snyder: Interesting. Julie: Yeah, if you think about the lowest engaged employee that you have, that's generally about as good as it's gonna get in terms of your customer engagement. So it behooves, especially organizations that have their employees customer facing, it really behooves them to think about this whole idea of engagement and and empowerment and giving to the employee so that they will give back to you. Rebecca Snyder: So I wanted just to unpack what discretionary engagement really means because that's not Julie: No, yeah. Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: that's not like, I'm gonna work over my forty or I'm gonna do w what does that truly mean for Julie: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: in this context? Julie: Well, in in some cases it might be I'm gonna work extra hours to get my work done. You know, especially if we think about someone who is paid a salary, right? They're paid to do a job. They're not clock clocking in and out every day. So discretionary effort may mean I am working extra, coming in early or leaving a little bit later to be able to get my work done because I know by doing so it's going to move whatever process along quicker. But it could also be you know, extra creativity, doing extra research to really make sure the product that I'm delivering, whether it's to the customer or to the organization, is top-notch, right? It's truly exhibiting what we would consider to be excellence. So, you know, at that point of discretionary effort is also the idea of work-life balance, right? So we can't Rebecca Snyder: Right. Julie: ignore the other side of that coin, which is we don't want our people working so much that they're burning out. and so it's trying to message around we really love that discretionary effort, but we also don't want you working so much that you neglect your family or you neglect your health. Rebecca Snyder: Well and and when the company is giving back and things that they can do for a staffer, it's not all you know, it's not always money. It could be, you know Julie: Yes. Right. Rebecca Snyder: what? We are hiring additional people so that you don't have to work all those hours or Julie: Exactly. Rebecca Snyder: what other what other things do you find, especially as the workforce is changing? It Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: feels like what what individuals want from their companies, especially in the context of all the contraction that's gone on with companies Julie: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: and like the fear around AI coming to take jobs. Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: What does in your experience, what does the workforce want from companies? companies. And I know it's Julie: Mm. Rebecca Snyder: like a the workforce is not a monolith, but what are you seeing in your practice? Julie: Right. Yes. Well, one of the things that is really interesting is as people, you know, in my age group grow older, they find themselves caught between still raising a family and now dealing with their aging parents. So Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: one of the amazing benefits and it you know, when we think of benefits, we think of medical and dental and all of that, but a truly a great benefit is some type of connection to a platform or a group of therapists who can help with that those types of life transitions. How do I care for my aging parent? You know, what sort of resources do I need to help them make sure that they're safe so that I can work and not feel Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: that anxiety the same way I might have when my kids were toddlers, right? But Rebecca Snyder: Right. Julie: at the same time I still have to be going to high school soccer games or whatever it might be. So it's just a lot. And that's a that's one example. Another example that's sort of I would put it in a d a different vein is unlimited PTO. You know, that was really popular a few years ago, but what we found is that it's not as great as what we thought because people feel guilty when they take PTO when it when it's in an unlimited situation. Whereas when there's a bank of PTO that then they they know they can go up to a certain You know, number of hours in a year. Yeah exactly. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah, they feel they can take it. If it's if it's unlimited, I think you constantly have to be looking at the people around you to be like, Am I in line with what everybody's taking? That feels very stressful to me. Julie: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. It it is. Yeah. So I've actually advised a few clients to kind of back away from that idea and still, you know, they can be generous with their PTO. They can give five weeks, six weeks, a year. and then people know, okay, I have up to here that I can actually take and then they can go and take it and not worry about feeling like, gosh, I'm, you know, I'm taking advantage of a situation. I'm gonna be judged for that. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Okay. That makes perfect sense. I Now I wanted to because you do so much with the Executive Alliance mentoring program, Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: I first and and I want to talk about sort of what you see for the mentoring program and and the effect of it, but I wanted to just loop back because you were talking about your mentoring relationship with with a coworker and supervisor Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: and sort of your coaching approach. And I'm just curious, like what do you see as the differences? 'Cause they seem a little interconnected intersected coach and mentor. But where do you Julie: Yes, right. Rebecca Snyder: where do you see them intersecting where are they where are they apart? Julie: Yeah, great question actually. and interestingly enough, in coaching school, right, that we go to, we look at the spectrum of mentoring, coaching, therapy, and how they're all they're all on a spectrum, but they're all different. So mentoring is characterized by I'm more experienced than you. I'm going to share my specific examples of where I did this or that. That will help you doesn't mean you do exactly what I do, but it does give the person who's being mentored an idea of who's gone before them and what what sort of trail was blazed. and sometimes mentoring also involves giving advice, right? Well, maybe you should try this, maybe you should try that. And I know in our effective mentoring or in our yes, thank you, effective impact mentoring program, Rebecca Snyder: Effective impact mentoring program. A lot of words. Julie: we you know, encourage that all of those types of discussions because it can really benefit the mentees in the program. They have this wonderful one-on-one relationship that they have built they build throughout the nine-month program, but then they also come to monthly sessions, monthly content sessions. So they're get getting exposure to maybe things that they've never thought about before, things that they've only heard about but didn't really know how to do, as an example, negotiating a salary, right? Negotiating you for what you're worth. Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Julie: That session, I find that to be so impactful because a lot of women who are in their early to mid-career who have that leadership trajectory hadn't haven't really thought about that before. So Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Julie: anyway, so so fast forwarding to coaching, we're already sort of talked about coaching being less about telling and less about the coach sharing their story. Instead, really drawing out the story of the person, the client, the person who's being coached, and then helping them by holding up the mirror, doing that active listening, and then asking those open-ended questions. Therapy on the other side of coaching is more about going back and exploring things that happened long ago that now shape the person into who they are today and changing. Thought patterns, right? And we do this a little bit in coaching, but in therapy, you know, there are many therapeutic approaches to being able to get at some of you know some of the dysfunction that may exist Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Julie: in someone's mind, perhaps how they were treated by their father, how that affects their ability to work with men in authority today, right? That's a really big issue. So That would how be sort of how I would define the differences between mentoring and coaching and then therapy. Rebecca Snyder: That was extraordinarily helpful to see that arc. So thank you for sharing that. And Julie: Yeah, good. Yes, absolutely. Rebecca Snyder: so as we wind down, and I could talk Julie: Uh-huh. Rebecca Snyder: to you for so long, but you know, time is is what we have. I wanted to know who you admire most as a leader. Do you have any standout leaders that you're like, yes. Julie: Hmm. Yeah. Yes. So I have to say I am a big fan of Brit A Brown. And the reason is that she has truly shown how humility, authenticity, being completely open helps people to follow that person, right? It's not about me knowing it all. It's Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Julie: about me not knowing it all. And selectively sharing, you know, not becoming a bleeding heart open book where it's just nauseating, but selectively sharing about my vulnerabilities so that people feel safe. Because the bottom line is if I'm a leader who is in command and control, the people around me, their brains are going to go into threat mode. And we haven't really talked about brain science, but I'm also a big brain science fan. But I know that. brains will go into threat mode and what happens happens physically is we stop breathing and not enough oxygen gets to our brain and then we really can't respond. So it's like if you've ever had that experience of someone yelling at you and you just like right you feel like you're like deer Rebecca Snyder: No sort. Brilliant. Julie: in a headlight, right? That's what's happening. So a strong leader understands that and can create a safe environment for individuals to bring to the table their full creativity, their full ideas. And that I think is just it's really awesome when it can happen. Rebecca Snyder: I love that. Well, those are that's what a great ending spot. thank Julie: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: you so much for sharing your insights on your leadership journey. Julie: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: We'll have to have you back for brain science at some point. That would be fun. And Julie: Absolutely. Rebecca Snyder: it was great to talk to you. So thank you so much. Julie: Thank you, Rebecca. It was it was really wonderful being with you today.