Latest / DevQuestions with Tim Corey / 292. An Introvert's Guide to Talking to People

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292. An Introvert's Guide to Talking to People · DevQuestions with Tim Corey

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Meeting people, making connections, and interacting with other developers are all incredibly valuable for your career in software development.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: However, there's a significant number of software developers who struggle with the concept of talking to people.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: As a fellow introvert, I understand.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: The concept of meeting new people or walking to a situation I'm unfamiliar with can be incredibly daunting.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: But there is hope.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: You can, as an introvert, gain the ability to meet others and reap the benefits to your career.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about why you should push yourself, what the benefits you will receive will be, and how to overcome your fears in today's episode of Dev Questions.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Dev Questions Podcast with Tim Corey.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Software development is more than just writing code.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about the rest of it.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Specifically, let's talk about how to overcome introversion.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk first about the why even work to overcome introversion and what benefits would you get.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, number one, it's not what you know, it's who you know, right?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've probably heard that phrase before, and maybe you've rolled your eyes where you say, I that's great, but I don't know anybody.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the reason why you don't know anybody is because you probably haven't taken the it upon yourself, taken the effort to go out and meet people.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I get that.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of terrifying.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: But when you do, when you meet people, it builds relationships.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: You start to find out, oh, this person works there and they know this.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: I heard there's a job opening there.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I could talk to this person, they can get me past the front door.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or, hey, you know what?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when I have this problem, I can go talk to this person.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know they're an expert in this area.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: They spent more time in this area and they can kind of give me a hand or help me out.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Knowing people will help build up your career.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so while you may not like it, it is about who you know.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And those people are going to have a direct impact on your career, not just getting a new job, but also in encouraging you in your job, in making sure that you know how to do something or giving you a new perspective on a problem you're facing.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of reasons why knowing more people will be more beneficial to your career.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that goes into point number two, which is other people bring other ideas.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: You see, sometimes it's easy to get locked in your head and you think about an issue from one direction because you think that's the direction to think about it, and you don't even realize you've got a blind spot or you are missing something.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: But there have been a number of times where I've been sitting down with other developers and having a conversation.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: We just talk about what we're working on and you know what we're struggling with and what issues we're having.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And another developer will say, Hey, I was working on this project and this is what I did.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's not even about my problem, but it will spark an idea in my head.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go, wait, I could tell you more about that.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: I could do something like that.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden, what you have is this collaborative conversation where you realize, first of all, that other people are doing problems like you're doing, but also they have different perspectives and how they work.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can improve as a developer just by having a different perspective, having a person to balance an idea off of and find out maybe if they've done things a different way.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And another reason why you should kind of break out of your shell and the benefits you'll receive from it is that you're gonna get encouraged that you're not alone.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Too often I talk to developers who feel like they're alone in a topic, like they're the only ones that are facing this issue.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then they find out, oh, I'm not alone.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I love talking to developers who have been kind of isolated and they're working at an organization that you know is working on.NET framework.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pretty common thing.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you know they're struggle with the fact that they're working on older technology and they're struggling through these things.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'll talk to them and I'll start kind of like asking questions like, oh, you're probably struggling with this.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, yeah, how'd you know?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll say, because I've seen it a dozen times, hundreds of times, at different organizations.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: I've talked to hundreds of developers who have that same kind of issue.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And once they realize, oh, it's not just my organization that's messed up, it's not just my situation.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's not.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost every organization.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so with that comes the idea that, hey, it's not just me.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not the only one struggling through this.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just, you know, affecting my career, it's affecting everybody's career.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so we can work through this together and kind of encourage each other rather than just feel like we're islands alone.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: When you are giving into your idea of introversion where it's just you and you're kind of isolating for everything else, well, you're an island.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And islands are difficult because they don't have a lot of help.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: They're a lot of fun if you want to be alone, but the first time you run into a problem that you can't solve, you get really frustrated, and you can even have a problem where you can't figure it out, and then you're kind of stuck.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're connected to other people, then you realize you're not alone.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: You can go to others for help.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can get help from other people, you can get new ideas, or just get encouragement as to the fact that you're not alone going through this problem.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really important to your career in a number of different areas, and these are just a few, uh, but it's really important to your career that you don't just isolate, that you get outside your own bubble and you overcome your desire to be an introvert.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about me for a minute, because I tell people I'm an introvert, and they say, no, you're not.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're not an introvert.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I speak at conferences, I speak at user groups, I make my living in front of a camera.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking to you right now.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm putting myself out in the world in a way that, quite frankly, even 10 years ago, would have been terrifying.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I can remember my very first time speaking at a user group, and it was extremely terrifying.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was sure no one would even show up to hear me talk.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that was just the opposite.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: There was a whole bunch of people that showed up and they liked what I had to say.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but I thought for sure that no one would agree with me and that that what I had to say wouldn't come through clearly, and I can't speak clearly because I stumble through my words and all these different reasons why I don't want to be in front of people.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: But more than that, even that was a huge step forward for me because I really struggle talking to people.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: I really struggle.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's terrifying to me to walk into a situation where I don't know what's going on.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like curling in on myself.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when it comes to meeting new people, that has been a real struggle.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: So this has been my career.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: This has been something that I have worked on over time.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I will tell you that it never goes away entirely.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I am still to this day an introvert.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: However, I have learned how to imitate an extrovert, how to get the benefits of being an extrovert without being one.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: So these are the things I've gone through.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll I'll walk you through a steps I've gone through and things that I found that help me.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this is like any other type of workout.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna be something that you do all at once.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna just flip a light switch.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not, I can't give you a magic formula that makes you all of a sudden an extrovert or pretend to be an extrovert.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: But instead, it's like working out.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna slowly build up your skills over time.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna take work, but it's really important that you do.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, number one, start small.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: So small, tiny steps.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: When I was growing up as a kid, I didn't talk to anybody, again, introvert.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And my parents realized this isn't gonna be a good thing.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: We need to make sure that we break him out of his shell a little bit.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: We went to a small country church when I was a kid.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so what they would do is before we would go into church, they would give me a number.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a number of people that I had to walk up to, shake their hand, say hello, and say one other thing.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning, um, you know, ask about their day, ask about their week, you know, in some way engaged in a conversation besides just, you know, walking up to them saying hi and walking away.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: So they'd give me a number and say, this is a number of people you have to do that to.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Terrified me.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Terrified me.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, small country church, everyone knew me.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't realize that everyone's in on this, everyone knows what's going on.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And really, it was a super safe space.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was a super safe space where everyone was rooting for me.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's not how it felt.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so just that act of, hey, go in and talk to three people.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because, first of all, it gives me that goal to shoot towards, and it allows me to say, I'm done when I'm done.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I still to this day practice that technique.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when I first became a Microsoft MVP, I flew out to Seattle for the MVP conference.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a conference they held, hold every year where they invite all the MVPs from around the world to um to Redmond, to Microsoft's headquarters.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they had this huge event where I was going to be in a room with thousands of other MVPs.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then, first of all, my idea, my um idea of I'm not good enough was really kicking in, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: My imposter syndrome was just going through the through the roof.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was sure that they had made a mistake in making me an MVP and that everybody else was so much smarter than I was, and that I'm just gonna be the odd person out.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: But then they have this event where they have all the MVPs come together.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: They had this big banquet for us, and it was a, you know, grab food and hang around and talk to people.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Nightmare, nightmare fuel.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I did was I said, I'm gonna go, I'm only gonna stay for a little bit, I'm gonna talk to, I think my number was three.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm gonna talk to three people, have a real conversation with three people, try to initiate the conversation with three people, and then I can leave.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I did that.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I walked in, I met three people, I talked to them, and I can tell you, it takes a weight off, knowing I can leave at any time now.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've accomplished my goal.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't leave because I actually found other people who were kind of hanging against the edge of the room.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I that was, I think, my second or third conversation was with them, and I met people who were like me.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so we could kind of stand in a line facing out, looking at the group and kind of you know having a conversation without really making eye contact, and we could talk about what everybody else is doing that we're not feeling comfortable doing.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so as an introvert, I was able to meet others like me, realize I'm not the only one.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I also found a friend.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk about that in point number three, but that was really helpful as well.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: So by starting small and saying just three people, I was able to take the weight off myself because I could count down.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, okay, got three left.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, talk to one person, super awkward conversation, kind of, you know, what do you do?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, kind of awkward now.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know what?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go get a drink.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I leave, right?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we do that again.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And what you start to do is you start to get a little better at it over time.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna take time, it will be terrifying, but you can do it.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that was my my way of breaking into these type of situations.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now, number two is reduce the unknowns.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: So when you are faced with a big situation where you have no clue about anything going into it, the more you can do to reduce the unknowns, the better it will be.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, for instance, if I'm going to attend an event, so uh let's use this this first MVP um group meeting as an example.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: What I did was I went on uh Google Street View and I mapped out where I would walk to the event.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, where am I gonna walk?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got the instructions out, made sure I knew exactly where I was walking into.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: I made sure I knew, you know, where what the location was, what I'm gonna do when I get in there, et cetera.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I had all those details down so that I could feel confident knowing how to get there.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: I can feel confident knowing how to get in the door.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah, there's some things I don't know and I can't make known.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: But the more I could do to eliminate the unknowns, the more confident I felt doing it.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you aren't sure how to get there and you're not sure what the address is, you're not sure what to do when you get there, and you're terrified to go there, it just piles up the ability for your brain to make excuses for yourself.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Where you're like, you know what, I don't know how to get there.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'm I'll probably get lost, so I'm just not gonna go.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or I'm not sure what to do when I get there.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't wanna like feel awkward or be out of place.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just not gonna go.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or you go there and you're like, uh, not sure where to go now, so I'm just gonna keep walking.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, been there, done that, right?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've done all these things where I just don't feel like I can do this.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'll allow myself to give in the excuses.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so the more you can reduce the unknowns, the better it will be.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you know somebody who's gone before and you feel comfortable talking to them, talk to them and say, hey, what do we do?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Where do we go?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or maybe even, hey, can I meet you and then we go together?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because that can be really helpful too.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of leads into point number three is find a friend.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are these amazing, wonderful people in this world called extroverts.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: They are people who somehow naturally feel at home talking to people.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not me, um, as we've discussed, but they are really good at adopting introverts.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's weird.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's wonderful, but it's weird.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so find an extrovert and have and you know, kind of have them adopt you.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, where you say, hey, can I go with you?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, can you, you know, tell me what's going to go on here and maybe even introduce me to some people?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or can I hang out with you?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have done that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I can list the number of people who have been at one time or another, kind of like my Sherpa, right?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: They they take me along.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just stick on their hip and like, hey, do you know Tim?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there's there's people who are really good at that.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And by being next to that person, it takes a lot of the weight off of me because I don't feel comfortable going up and say, hey, do you know me?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um instead, they can do it for me, and I can just be the guy who goes, hey, how are you doing?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and start the conversation.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it often what will happen is that person will say, Hey, Tim does this.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Joe does this.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so also we already have a bit of a connection.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: We can start talking about that, and it makes it so much easier to get started.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: So finding a friend, which that usually comes back to step one, making small steps, um, getting a foot in the door, meeting those people.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, at the MVP conference, that first conference, the people I was staying in line next to, a couple of them became that kind of person for me early on, where you know, they would take me along as they go, hey, let's go, let's go meet people.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, I'll go along.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so finding that friend took taking that small step first just to meet some people.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Number four, set achievable goals.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to uh overwhelm yourself.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I never go to any MVP conference, even though now I know hundreds of people at the at the conference and you know have lots of great conversations.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: I never go with this idea of I'm gonna meet 500 people.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Not gonna do that.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm not gonna fill, you know, plan on filling my day with nothing but people.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um instead, what I'll do is I'll set achievable goals, like I'm going to have conversations with these groups.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I have people that I want to see every year, my people that I'm building friendship relationships with, um, but also I want to meet new people and have those conversations, so have some goals around that, but I don't set the goals too high.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make sure that I can achieve those goals and feel good about it.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: But then number five is increase those goals over time.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like working out.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you only ever lift the same amount of weights, you're gonna make some progress, but not enough progress.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: You wanna keep adding weight to that stack for a while.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: You want to keep increasing those goals over time.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So make sure that you don't say, you know what, I'm gonna meet one person and then you meet one person, you'll leave, and the next time you, I'm gonna meet one person and then leave.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: You need to start upping that, okay?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because when you do, you will find that you start to become more and more comfortable doing this.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: The more you do just about anything, the more comfortable you get doing it.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: When I first drove a car, I was terrified.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I drove so slowly on our backcountry roads.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was terrified to meet another car.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was, you know, always paying attention to every little detail because I didn't know what I was doing.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was very uncomfortable.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, driving is second nature.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: I just do it because I have practiced over time.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: This is the same thing.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to take work, it's going to take practice, but it will get better.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: It will not get easy necessarily.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's not easy, still not easy to this day, but it is easier, much easier than it used to be.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that came through practice.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: So work on this, and you'll find that when you do, especially you have those small but achievable goals, what happens is you'll achieve the goal and keep going.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because now you feel free.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't feel that pressure of I have to meet more people.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because now you don't have to.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: You can you can leave.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe don't.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe just see what happens if you don't.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because you'll go further and do more than if you just say, you know, three, and then I absolutely have to leave.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: It allows you to feel relief and yet still do more.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's like you know, the last rep when you're lifting weights or or doing push-ups or something else, where you say, you know what, I'm gonna do as many as I can the last time.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Just see, you know, I want, I want to do three, but I want to see if I can do more than three and push through.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: You'll find that you achieve a whole lot more doing that.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: So being an introvert is common, especially the developer.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just something about development and you know, draws us in.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just don't let your fear of others or the unknown stop you from expanding.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Just because something is scary or hard doesn't mean you should avoid it.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: The best stories always include people pushing through something difficult to succeed.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Don't let the excuses win.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can do this.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: As always, I am Tim Corey.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Dev Questions.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: When you're ready to learn to think and code like a professional developer, head over to imtimcore.com and enroll in a course.