Latest / The Price of Music / “Managers do a lot more than they used to...” – super-manager Niamh Byrne on Gorillaz, how the role of manager is changing, and more

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“Managers do a lot more than they used to...” – super-manager Niamh Byrne on Gorillaz, how the role of manager is changing, and more · The Price of Music

• 0:03
  Hello and welcome to The Price of Music brought to you by Music
• 0:06
  Ally. It's the show that both looks at
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  the finances of the music industry, but also the behind
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  the scenes workings of the music biz.
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  I'm Steve Lamac Heath, Stuart Dredge.
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  This week a slightly different show once again as we bring you
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  the second in our series this year of interviews with people
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  who work in the music industry in some form or other.
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  We spoke last month to Ricky Bates from The Joiners, the
• 0:31
  venue in Southampton. This month here's a chance to
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  hear an interview which I did at the Music Ally conference the
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  other week. Talking to Neve Byrne who is
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  from 11 Management was key, the one of the founders of 11
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  Management who look after Gorillas and various other
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  artists. We wanted it though to try and
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  get to the roots. Of.
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  What are the challenges that face Management is both
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  established managers like Naive and new managers coming into the
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  business. What are the challenges?
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  What are the big things coming down the road that people
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  experienced managers are looking at thinking, well, this could be
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  good or this could be a problem. It's basically an.
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  Overview of music. Management in 2026, which is
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  coming up. Stuart, you were in the you were
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  in the crowd, in the audience for this without, without
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  spoiling the plot too much, things that things that drew you
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  in. Yeah, I think she was just
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  talking about how the role of a manager is changing and some of
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  the things they're doing that labels used to do and some of
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  the just in the idea of like, you know, can you can you do
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  without a label if you're a manager and you're doing all
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  these different things for your artist?
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  And then, yeah, she was talking about sort of how how how
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  managers are being paid and whether that should change.
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  And that was interesting to me because I don't know a lot about
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  how that works, but she was saying, I think talking about
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  that about, you know what, what changes we made to get managers
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  to be properly rewarded for what they do for artists.
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  And she talked about AI because you have to at modern day
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  conference. And yeah, and it was good.
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  I think, you know, people, people in the room afterwards,
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  they really enjoyed that session because I think it was just
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  someone with nothing to sell. She wasn't no reason to brag.
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  She was just talking about this is how things are for us and
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  these are the issues I see. So I think it was a really good
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  interview. I think people are going to
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  really enjoy it. Thank you very much for coming.
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  This is well something of a a rare opportunity this to get an
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  insight into the musical landscape from someone who has
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  been involved in the industry for. 3 decades now.
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  Much of that in music management's working with
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  artists like Blur and Elastica and Mary John Turing breaks
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  before in 2011 Co founding 11 Management, which is is a really
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  forward thinking, creative multitasking management company,
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  which obviously has had huge success with the likes of
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  Gorillas and Damon Albarn. She's also currently Chair of
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  the MMF, spotlighting the challenging role that today's
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  managers face in our ever changing music world.
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  Another round of applause, please, for Neve Byrne.
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  Nice to meet you. Right.
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  We, we haven't got, we haven't got long 2023 minutes, 46
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  seconds, it says there. But having said that, we should,
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  for context, explain how you got into the music industry in the
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  1st place and what drew you to music management and then drew
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  you back to music management. OK, so I'm gonna have to go back
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  to set the tone here. And I'm from Dublin and I'm from
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  a kind of suburb in the north of the city.
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  I grew up in the 70s, eighties. It was kind of an interesting
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  time, mass unemployment and, and we had the, the backdrop of the
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  trouble. So actually as a, as a kid kind
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  of growing up in Dublin, it wasn't, it wasn't kind of full
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  of a huge prospect. And so as a kid, we, we used to
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  kind of go to, you might know, the street, we used to go to
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  Grafton Street. And that was kind of our kind of
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  solace. You know, that was kind of
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  where, you know, if you're coming from the north of the
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  city to Grafton. So it was a bit like going to
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  Barbados, you know, it was very colourful.
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  And for those of you who kind of know that street back then, it
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  was kind of full of kind of live performance.
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  You know, it was like a series of kind of live shows that kind
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  of went from one end of the street to the other.
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  So I think for me as a kid, that was my first introduction to
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  live music because, you know, you didn't have money to kind of
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  do anything else. And it was amazing.
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  You know, there were skiffle bands, there was, you know,
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  singer songwriters, very different to what it is now.
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  But it was it was pretty amazing place.
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  And then obviously as a child kind of frequenting that place,
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  we start, I started to kind of look at kind of punks and I
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  remember kind of being incredibly inspired by kind of
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  punks who inhabited kind of one end of the street.
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  And and I just saw a kind of a spark there.
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  You know, it was like a bunch of people who were like just doing
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  whatever the hell they wanted, you know, in a, in a country
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  that a lot of like issues. And, and it was just probably my
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  first introduction to counterculture, you know, and
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  seeing a group of people kind of doing and pushing against
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  convention. And I kind of thought, you know
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  what, I really like that. And so that was kind of my
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  introduction. And then I started to obviously,
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  because Dublin is full of musicians, they became my
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  friends. And then I kind of ended up kind
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  of, you know, being in a in a kind of world where I never
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  wanted to be a musician, but I certainly kind of wanted to
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  facilitate that kind of expression.
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  You know, it was, it's such an amazing thing to be able to do.
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  And I think people who are kind of inhabit that space obviously
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  need support. And so I kind of always kind of
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  had this vision that I would be a manager.
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  So I didn't know any management. And so anyway, roll on a kind of
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  few words. I I followed my sister to to
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  London. She was also in in music.
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  In fact, she watched the word back way back then.
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  So that was my introduction to music in London.
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  And she finally, she said to me, I found this kind of job in a
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  newspaper from music manager in the Guardian and I applied and I
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  got it. And, and that, that is genuinely
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  my, my start in music. I didn't know anyone.
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  I just knew it was what I wanted to do.
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  We knew I wanted to be around creative people And and that
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  that was kind of my my kind of kickstart into management.
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  Were were you a good fit right from the very start in terms of,
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  you know, the things that you need to be a?
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  Yeah, it's an interesting, I mean.
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  I guess it's quite a learning curve if you haven't been a
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  manager and then you're working for a management.
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  It's a really interesting question because I would have
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  thought that I would just landed there.
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  You know, I Ant an advent. I landed in that place and
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  became a manager. But I actually think, you know,
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  my background, you know, the fact that I was actually working
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  or, or around musicians and kind of actually I, I worked in Tower
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  Records actually really, I had a lot of experience kind of being
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  around kind of music and art and that I feel that was definitely
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  useful. And, you know, I kind of spoke
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  the language, you know, it's a different language.
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  But in terms of I always wondered whether you have to be
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  of a certain temperament or have a certain skill set to be a good
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  manager, which I mean, these days it's probably versatility.
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  And what has been a common theme throughout the life of managers
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  is patience. Yeah, I agree.
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  I think that is important. And I think also, I think people
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  kind of misunderstand artists when they're kind of maybe can,
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  can appear demonstrative, you know, But that that to me is
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  only a sign of somebody who knows what they want.
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  And and somebody who knows what they want is actually a really,
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  really good thing. And so, yeah, I think artistry
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  can be very misunderstood. And I think it is really, really
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  important to kind of understand, you know, most musicians are,
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  you know, vessels for expression, you know, and that
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  that means sometimes there are no filters, you know, and we may
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  be able to kind of manage that. But, you know, artist is about
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  expressing. And so, yeah, you need to be
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  patient. Yeah, and the the relationships
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  that you build, I suppose the one thing you're always looking
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  for is to be able to look them in the eye and just say, trust
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  me. Oh yeah.
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  I mean, there's definitely, I, I think there's two things that
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  management require. One is absolutely trust and you
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  need to know that your manager has your back.
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  If you're going to go down a hole and kind of into a creative
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  process, writing a record, you need to be able to come back out
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  of your hole and know that you somebody's got you.
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  You know, things are taken care of and that you're working to
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  the same level. You're matching the same level
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  of work that they're doing. I think as long as you do that,
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  I think you'll be, you'll succeed.
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  And, and yeah, and vision I, I guess is another thing of an
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  attribute I think of any, any management.
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  I think again, when somebody's tunnelling and they're going
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  down into that kind of process, you need to basically have the
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  vision of where it's going to go.
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  And you need to know that destination so that when they're
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  ready, you can take them there. And that's the that's the trick.
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  So there are there are some things which are constant.
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  What has changed though? Because when there must have
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  been so many working in music management in the 90s and
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  working in music management now, what has what has changed for
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  the better and has anything changed for the worse?
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  Yeah, that's a long question. I had the most amazing kind of
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  learning, you know, I, I learnt the craft of management by
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  working with some incredible people who were kind of working
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  up a Polyphone records at the time.
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  It was an amazing, amazing label that had amazing, amazing
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  people. And that was amazing thing.
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  And I think kind of what's happened over the years is that
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  that we've lost a lot of those kind of really amazing people
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  and maybe kind of replaced with kind of younger people, which is
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  no bad thing by the way. But I think there's still kind
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  of, you know, a lot of experience that has has has kind
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  of maybe been drained from the industry that would would have
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  been better if there was kind of more balance.
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  And but yeah, it's massively changed.
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  I used to go into a label years ago and, and you would kind of
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  go in and you would kind of be the manager, do the deal making
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  everybody else would basically facilitate the work.
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  And there was an amazing kind of level of service, but that
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  that's kind of chipped away. And I think the the kind of
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  management role has now shouldering a hell of a lot more
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  than it did before. And it's now us that are doing
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  the kind of line share of the work that's not a dis dis to
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  kind of labels. There are still amazing things
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  out there, but that's just the reality that it is now.
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  I think it's just a different a different landscape and
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  management's a different shape. So if there's two questions out
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  of that, I suppose 1 is what you don't have.
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  Then if you're picking up other roles that people were doing at
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  the record company, two things. How do you find the time to be
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  the manager you were and do all the additional work?
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  And two, why are you signing to a label if they're not doing the
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  work? Yeah.
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  I mean, this is a difficult question because management
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  yeah, that's twofold I think. Let's go up to the label
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  question first. I think funding is a huge issue
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  for management And I think, I think today managers could
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  probably do everything. I mean they there, there's even
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  possible to supply your whole entire control supply chain.
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  But unfortunately kind of funding is really is really
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  difficult. So I think certainly kind of
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  people are still reliant on kind of traditional kind of funding
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  models. And if you're not getting value
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  from from the people that you are kind of doing those deals
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  with, you're going to get frustrated because it's not kind
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  of matching the level of kind of work that you're kind of putting
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  in. But unfortunately at this moment
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  in time, there's very little of anything else.
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  So it's a, it's a difficult, it's a difficult thing.
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  So how much when you, when you, when you're talking about doing
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  things yourself? Because this is something I
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  think you've been doing with Gorillas where basically you've
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  taken on doing pretty much everything, being your own
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  virtually, being your own record label as well as management
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  company. Yeah, I think that's kind of
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  probably true for a lot of managers these days.
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  It's largely unseen. I think the work of a manager is
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  largely unseen. I think we, we as a management
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  company, we are now the 30 years later, I think my whole life has
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  kind of been trying to get to this point that we're now kind
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  of self releasing the next kind of gorillas record ourselves.
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  Our team do everything from kind of marketing campaigns to
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  digital strategy to data management to fan management to
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  production. I think at any one point in any
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  guerrillas campaign, we probably have about 3 or 4 producers
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  producing the kind of huge amount of artwork and and and
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  kind of animation that we do for any large campaign.
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  But it's only a team of 14 people and we're doing a
• 13:12
  worldwide campaign, you know, So it's a lot, it's a lot of work.
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  Yeah. Just do you think then that if
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  we are, we are continuing to use so the old model of finance,
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  would it almost be better if the record label gave the management
• 13:32
  company the money? Well, I, I would say yes, and
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  not, not because I don't think that there isn't a role for
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  labels. I just think that managers are
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  best positioned to do that work well, you know, and because we
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  don't have kind of big, huge rosters to have to kind of
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  contend with, you know, we've got smaller rosters and we can
• 13:54
  basically make budgets go much longer and much more efficient
• 13:58
  with the money that we get. There's no wastage and we have
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  to succeed. There's no, there's no question
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  around that. Like that's what you need to do.
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  You need to sustain your artist's career.
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  You need to succeed. So you, you do, you do kind of,
• 14:11
  but a lot of time and effort. I mean, we spend a lot of time
• 14:14
  looking at the thing that we posted last week and what effect
• 14:18
  that post had. You know, we go into minutia
• 14:20
  detail and then we basically change kind of how we respond to
• 14:25
  things based on that information.
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  I don't think that if you were going to any label, good or bad,
• 14:31
  they would be able to do what we do.
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  So yeah, I feel very passionate about what what value managers
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  adds and I think that kind of extends also to catalog.
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  You know, I think it's one thing to acquire catalog fantastic.
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  It's another thing to add value and I think managers add massive
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  value to catalog and that's worth a lot.
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  I. Mean when you get to a certain
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  level, when you have a team and you can and a reputation and you
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  can do do that sort of work. What?
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  What I worry about is for younger managers now, one,
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  they're being asked to do much more.
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  They've got to be more versatile, they've got to have
• 15:11
  more skills across the board. But at the same time, we're in a
• 15:17
  landscape where it often takes longer for artists to break so
• 15:22
  so it's hard for young managers to keep their heads above water
• 15:26
  and do a good job. Yeah, I mean, that's my massive
• 15:29
  frustration, you know, is the normalisation of kind of what
• 15:33
  managers have to do. Now, managers still get paid on
• 15:38
  the premise that they're deal makers 20% That's what they used
• 15:42
  to do. They made deals and they didn't
• 15:44
  do anything else. Now managers do everything.
• 15:47
  I mean, we had a conversation this morning where you were
• 15:49
  talking about a manager that was basically agent and the, you
• 15:52
  know, the publicist and and everything.
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  And that's true for a lot of managers.
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  But yet that that isn't, isn't seen or, or heard and it's
• 16:01
  certainly kind of not, not valued in the same way.
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  So I do worry massively that there's a normalisation of kind
• 16:10
  of what managers are expected to do and for the money that they
• 16:14
  receive. And I am, and as you say, time
• 16:17
  as well. And we talked about time too,
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  because, you know, we, we, we don't seem to have any time in
• 16:22
  our days. I remember being able to go for
• 16:24
  lunch and it was, you could go for lunch.
• 16:26
  I can't go for lunch anymore, guys, you know, and I think
• 16:30
  that's all that's all kind of, you know, important because if
• 16:35
  you don't have space, you don't have time to think, you know,
• 16:38
  you can't be creative. You can't push yourself.
• 16:40
  You can't, you know, think beyond kind of what you just
• 16:43
  have to do. And and that's then true for
• 16:45
  artists are also doing the same thing.
• 16:47
  So yeah, I think it's not all doom and gloom, guys, but it's
• 16:52
  there's this, you know, there's, there's definitely opportunity.
• 16:55
  But yeah, managers are doing a lot more than they used.
• 16:57
  Yeah. I mean, it's not, yeah, it's not
• 16:59
  doing great. I think it's just, do you think
• 17:01
  it's time for a re evaluation of what managers do in both ways,
• 17:06
  really just in terms of appreciating the work of a
• 17:09
  manager, but also maybe trying to find different ways of paying
• 17:14
  the manager so that you, you, you actually value them.
• 17:17
  Yeah, I mean for those of you who don't know, obviously chair
• 17:20
  of the MMF as well. And, and the MMF is an
• 17:22
  incredible organization representing 1000 managers.
• 17:26
  And every year the, well, first of all, Annabella who I've
• 17:32
  probably seen in the room somewhere is basically acts on
• 17:35
  the the mandate of its members. So the, the MMF are doing what
• 17:39
  it's managed, the managers kind of want them to do.
• 17:41
  And so every year there's like this study or or kind of focus
• 17:45
  on what people want to actually kind of do.
• 17:48
  And the resounding kind of information coming back from
• 17:51
  people was value of managers and kind of new renumeration models.
• 17:56
  And so we have actually kind of started to produce work that
• 18:01
  kind of show how you could potentially do things
• 18:03
  differently, how things could potentially work.
• 18:06
  But I think it's still a little bit of a debunking that we kind
• 18:10
  of need to do that kind of managers are not necessarily
• 18:12
  skilled or not necessarily kind of the same level as what you
• 18:16
  would do if you you did something else.
• 18:18
  So there's a, there's an education to be done.
• 18:20
  And I think we're working to to change that.
• 18:22
  But yeah, needs to get better. Yeah, I think there was a
• 18:25
  report, wasn't there, that said managers are worth £714 million
• 18:30
  for the wider UK music industry and if you're worth that sort of
• 18:33
  money then creating that sort of money then surely something
• 18:37
  should be coming back. Maybe we have forgotten that,
• 18:40
  that there are really good managers behind the scenes, big
• 18:43
  artists and there's, you know, up and coming managers who
• 18:47
  worked for three years just to get an indie record deal.
• 18:50
  Yeah, I completely agree. And I think there's another
• 18:52
  figure as well that for every pound that is that that an
• 18:56
  artist kind of spends in a manager, they get 8 lbs back.
• 18:59
  I think I might, I might need to be corrected on that.
• 19:01
  Is it 8 lbs? Thank you.
• 19:03
  So, yeah, huge, huge value that kind of both artists and
• 19:06
  industry kind of get from their managers.
• 19:08
  And yeah, I, I do think that it's important to invest in them
• 19:12
  actually, because I think they're, they're shouldering a
• 19:15
  lot of work and I think they can give a lot back.
• 19:19
  Ladies and gentlemen, Neve Byrne.
• 19:20
  Thank you. Thank you.