Latest / Walk Talk: Faith in Motion / 011: Tongues
Transcript
- Pj Verdin: Back at it, brother. Let's talk about it. Randy - 3minute Speech: back at it, back at it again. Let's get into this. All right. So today I think we're going to talk about tongues. Is that right? Pj Verdin: Yes, sir. It's it's one of those those subjects man Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah, so it is one of those subjects. It's one of those subjects that unfortunately I think is something that can be very divisive in the church amongst Christians. It's also a topic. Yeah, it's also a topic that I think a lot of non-Christians have some opinions about because especially for, you know, non-Christians who maybe have observed people speaking in tongues and don't really have a lot of context. Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy - 3minute Speech: could definitely cause them to have some feelings or even some confusion. Pj Verdin: Right. Absolutely. That's what I was saying. You know, ⁓ maybe even just questions this in general. And, I think for me, man, it's kind of funny because I find myself talking about this topic a lot. And if I'm being honest, I don't think of it as that big of a deal. think that certain Randy - 3minute Speech: Mmm. Pj Verdin: churches and denominations or people in general put so much emphasis on it that it's like the hill that they want to die on when I you realistically for me I'm like man it's it's realistically small potatoes in my opinion you know so Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah, I agree with that. let's maybe start off by just kind of explaining, at least from our perspective, what tongues is and, you know, kind of what either a definition of tongues or kind of what we've, you know, kind of come to understand that tongues really is and maybe what even what other people understand tongues to be just to kind of level set with anybody who might be listening, who might think, you know, what is tongues? Pj Verdin: Absolutely. And I mean, I'll just, I'll keep it pretty, pretty short and sweet and simple. You know, whenever I'm, I'm reading in Acts on the day of Pentecost, whenever this thing becomes a thing, The, whenever it says tongues, you know, the commentary in my Bible that... I've used before, ⁓ as well as multiple other sources, but it is noted here, ⁓ says that that word tongues there is the Greek word glossum, which literally means languages. So I'll just leave it, leave it there. That's my understanding. That's the way I view it. And I'll leave it there. Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think I think that's a good starting point. So obviously, you know, like you mentioned, we first hear this term in the New Testament in terms of the day of Pentecost. The disciples are in the upper room. Jesus has already been resurrected. He's already ascended and they're in the upper room. They're waiting and the spirit of God comes down upon them and they start speaking in tongues. Pj Verdin: tongues. Randy - 3minute Speech: And I think it's very, ⁓ very good that you, you know, identified the word in the original language that was used ⁓ and how that does have, you know, ⁓ other uses. It shows up other in other places in the Bible. and it's basically kind of interpreted as languages, right? Yeah. But that's not the. Yeah. But that's not the only way people interpret the term tongues, is it? Pj Verdin: All right. That's my understanding of it. No, no, not at all. ⁓ You know, based on some other scriptures, I want to say the most notable ones are in Corinthians. ⁓ You know, they get this idea of, I guess, a heavenly languages, but they would call it where it's speaking ⁓ uttering words that they don't themselves understand or, you know, for the most part, other people around them. Randy - 3minute Speech: Mmm. Pj Verdin: And so, you know, I'm not saying that there's no validity to those things. I do know people that that personally that I love and I respect their walk. I know where they're at that I think are pretty genuine and in what they're doing there. And, you know, hey, look, I don't ever try to put God in a box. I'm not saying that he he can't do something like that. That's just for me personally, in my walk. That's not what I've I've Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Right. Pj Verdin: scene highlighted in scripture, I don't feel like that's what's been revealed to me whenever I've prayed about it and done my deep dive in there, you know. Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah, and I think it's worth mentioning that of those two definitions, so on the one hand, we have tongues as a language, an actual language here on earth, that's there is some sort of miraculous translation or interpretation that's happening. And the other hand, we have tongues as sort of this ⁓ spiritual prayer language that some people Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy - 3minute Speech: believe is a language between them and God that as you mentioned they Don't even claim to understand so we kind of got those two different versions either way I think the one thing that everyone generally agrees on is that it's a spiritual gift. It's one of the spiritual gifts Regardless of how it shows up Pj Verdin: Right. Right. And I've heard it referred to as the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as if to say that is the only evidence of such a thing, I would say I personally don't agree with it being the only. I would absolutely say that that is a way that there's evidence of the Holy Spirit showing up, which we see in scripture. Randy - 3minute Speech: Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I'm glad you brought that up because I think there's a lot of Christianese out there. And when I talk about Christianese, I don't just mean like big words like sanctification that gets thrown out or things like that, or, you know, edification. I'm talking about like, I think a lot of times we overcomplicate the simplicity of the gospel. And I've heard things like, ⁓ you are forgiven spiritually but not forgiven positionally or things like that. God is, you know, He's given you His Spirit, but at the same time there's a second blessing or something that you could receive if you, you know, and one of the ways that shows up is this baptism of the Holy Spirit that manifests itself in tongues. And to me, I don't really see the biblical case for a lot of these separations or divisions. Pj Verdin: Hmm. Right. Randy - 3minute Speech: I see them as someone who is struggling. In my personal opinion, I think a lot of these times when these topics are separated into something that makes sense for your salvation, but doesn't make sense for your walk, it's because people are struggling with the idea of grace and understanding that what has really transpired is a transformation in one's life and in one's heart, and they've really been raised from death to life. And so because we struggle with that so much and we say, how can we really have the Holy Spirit inside of us if I still sin? Or how could I do this when there's still that and they they come up with all these crazy, my opinion, crazy, but complicated ideas around some simple topics. Pj Verdin: Right. And I mean, for me, what I think happened, right, was, you know, I mean, and even going back to the days of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, you know, we see that, that, you know, some of them, one side of them, ⁓ you know, would would acknowledge, you know, all the Old Testament and some would only do the first five books because of the supernatural aspect of it. And they're like, you know, I'm not I'm not willing to accept that. And so there's always been this kind of divide. And I think that basically what happened is you had denominations of the church saying, know what, you know, spirits, anything supernatural, spiritual gifts, know, laying of hands, healing, you know, speaking in tongues, just all these things are like, no, we don't do that. And then you had the other side with the Pentecostal and the Charismatics that are like, ⁓ no, Randy - 3minute Speech: All right. Pj Verdin: This is what we do all the time. So it's like, it's one extreme or the other. There's no like happy medium to almost like let God be God and do those things. And in my personal opinion, you know, and I apologize if this comes off offensive, but what I think is this, that if the people that speak in tongues, in this language that not even they understand. I think that if they didn't go to a church where that was the norm, then they probably wouldn't speak in tongues. Now that's just my opinion. You know what mean? So in the same way, like you don't have Catholics speaking in tongues, you have Catholics to saints and you have charismatic and Pentecostals and non-denominational, you know, speaking in these tongues. And I think if either one of them switched churches and these things maybe just kind of became the norms that I think that you would see evidence of like, ⁓ well, this is what we do here. So this is how. Randy - 3minute Speech: Right, right. Well, Right. Pj Verdin: my walk looks kind of thing, you know? Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Yeah. And I think, you know, in some, some denominations even take it to an extreme because they'll say, well, tongues is the evidence that you have received the Holy Spirit, period. And the Holy Spirit is our assurance that we are saved, that we have eternal life. Therefore, if you've not spoken in tongues, you've not received the Holy Spirit. Therefore you have not been saved. And that's kind of a scary place to take it. But there are denominations out there who do Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Right. Right. or yeah, born again. Randy - 3minute Speech: take it to that extreme. Pj Verdin: Absolutely. And they make it seem very transactional. you know, it's like you haven't haven't leveled up yet. You know, like, you know, your faith is not enough. You have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit? No. Well, you know what? You better you better get to working on that. And yeah, man, it is pretty crazy. I mean, it's like I said, it's it's one of those topics that I'm like, man, this is, know. Randy - 3minute Speech: Mmm. Right. Right. Pj Verdin: this is only such a big deal because certain people make it such a big deal. mean, Paul himself kind of, you know, downplays it to an extent, you know, I mean, he, he, yeah, he did say that he did it and he'd spoken tongues more than most, but, know, even again in that context, and we can get into that later, but I think that he was, he was talking about not necessarily. And look, I'll be honest before I kind of did my deep dive, you know, because I know people and I've, I've heard people speaking in these utterances, not necessarily a spoken language, a heavenly language or what have you. In my mind, I was like, if that is a thing, then for me, the way it made sense in my mind was like, okay, well, if I'm in my prayer closet by myself, right? And I just, maybe I'm very deep in prayer or maybe I'm going through something. Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: words that I don't understand are flowing from my heart, through my mouth to God. I'm like, I could see that. I could maybe see that. That's kind of where my understanding was before, because even before I deep dove, I know that Paul was saying in Corinthians, don't do it unless it's interpreted. Don't do it unless it's edifying the church. I knew that he kind of had these guidelines, and then I see those things get kind of blurry. Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Pj Verdin: in certain church settings and it's like, okay, well, it's like if this is the hill that you're gonna die on, let's at least do it in accordance with what scripture is saying in the way that it's supposed to be handled. And unfortunately, I'm not really seeing that happen a whole lot to be honest with you. Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Well, yeah, neither have I. And I will say, you know, going back to what you said a second ago about, you know, it doesn't show up everywhere. It doesn't show up in every denomination of Christianity. It definitely has corners of the Christian world where it shows up. And I will tell you from personal experience, you know, I have spoken with several people, at least one of which was a pastor who flat out admitted to me that one They speak in tongues and by their definition of tongues, they meant a prayer language, a prayer language that they didn't fully understand, that they didn't understand really at all. They've admitted that they speak in tongues and I've actually heard them pray in tongues, but they've admitted to me when I asked them, because I was very curious about this and I'm going back decades now, but there was at least a couple people I've talked to and I asked them point blank. I said, now when you are praying in these tongues. First of all, it doesn't sound like a language to me. It sounds like gibberish. I'm not trying to be disrespectful or rude. I'm just saying that's what it sounds like to me. And I asked them, said, is that a conscious decision that you are making to pray in that way? Or is it that you are just trying to pray to God and you are trying to actually say words, but that's what comes out? Pj Verdin: Mm. Yeah. Randy - 3minute Speech: And I really, I really was sincere in that question. And before I tell you what they told me, let me tell you that there are times when people's brains malfunction and they do speak in words that are different than what they're trying to speak. And I'll give you a good example. I won't say any names, but a good friend of mine who I used to be roommates with, he and I were bench pressing. were working out in the basement and we were lifting weights. And when it was his turn to bench press, The stress of trying to get that barbell up, like it stressed him out so much that he had like this weird, almost like a mini seizure that happened where he didn't faint, he didn't pass out. But when he got up and he started speaking to me, he was talking gibberish. Now he was saying real English words. He was saying words, but no, no, no. He was saying words that I could hear, but the words, the English words didn't make any sense. It was just like random words like tree, green grass, blue. Pj Verdin: In his mind, in his mind. ⁓ okay. Randy - 3minute Speech: Sky like he just like saying random their English words, but in his mind. Yes. He was saying a complete sentence He was saying man. That was a tough to get that bar up I didn't think I was gonna make it but what I was hearing was all these random English words that didn't communicate anything Right. So so when I asked a couple of people asked a pastor and I asked at least another Person who I knew had spoken in this quote-unquote prayer language that a lot of people might say sounds like gibberish Pj Verdin: Wow, okay. Right, right. I got you. Randy - 3minute Speech: They admitted to me that, and one of them actually said, God is not going to control your will. God is not going to take over your body and make you do anything. And in other words, they were confessing to me that it was a conscious choice to speak or to pray in this unknown language. Pj Verdin: Gotcha. And, know, I guess that makes sense. that I'm glad you asked that question, because I think that that's a question that that a lot of people have, but don't even know how to ask. You know what I mean? But one thing that just kind of always puzzled me is the idea that, you know, I would agree that that speaking in tongues is a gift, just like the laying of hands and healing and prophesying. And these things are gifts. You know what I mean? And what I guess this actually Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: your what you just said answers my question because my thing is this I'm like I have seen people who have gotten this gift and now have the ability to turn it on and off like a light where it's like hey look let's pray and just roll into it but then it's like okay well guess what the gift of laying hands for healing is also a gift but then they lay hands and they pray and they're like ⁓ well I guess we'll see see how that works like so so you can't control the rest of the gifts but tongues you got it Randy - 3minute Speech: Right, right. That's a good point. Pj Verdin: in your pocket, could pull it out whenever. I'll just, it was a confusing thing. how, if this, we, would absolutely 110 % lootly say that speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. But whenever we started making it seem like we can control that spirit, I'm like, I don't know, man. That's, I don't know. Randy - 3minute Speech: ⁓ Yeah. Right. Well, I think that's a great point about how other gifts ⁓ don't seem at least to be as controllable. Just to be fair, I will say that this is a very small sample size, right? This is anecdotal evidence. A couple of people I talked to, I'm very sure that if you were to talk to a lot of other people, there would be people who say, this is not something I control at all and I'm just trying to speak and pray to God and that's just what happens to come out. I'm sure that that is the experience of a lot of people out there. Personally, I've not talked to those people but I'm convinced that they exist. Pj Verdin: 100%. 100%. Yeah, I think that there's people on absolute on both sides of that spectrum that, know, people who they're not purposefully doing it. just happens. And I do think that it probably comes from a sincereness of the heart. But I have myself been in a situation where I have had somebody basically try to coach me to speak in tongues. And I was like, no, I want an authentic Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: encounter and relationship with God. I just, you know, I stopped right there and I went back to my seat, you know what mean? Because now, you, I went up for this altar call and ⁓ I'm deep in prayer and I'm just, you know, God, I surrender everything to you, you know, have your way if it's your will, let your will be done. You know, I just want, and I'm deep in prayer and I'm just, you know, surrendering everything and I'm. ⁓ very intently praying like, look, if this is what's meant for me, God, like show me because I, you know, I feel like this thing has been on my heart. I've been deep diving. I don't understand it. Like, you know, like basically I'm just in it. Right. And so I had a few different people come and lay hands on me and pray over me. And, and, you know, and, and they were speaking in tongues and, and, and what have you. And then, and then, you know, one of the last people that, that put his hand on me, you know, he was like, he's like, just Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Pj Verdin: pray and so I'm like praying out loud so that he could hear me and he's like, stop saying words and I'm like, what? He's like, just move your tongue real fast and I was like, I gotta stop you there. I don't feel comfortable with that and I I excused myself and I went and sat back down and I was like, man, this is, you know, this just doesn't sit right with my spirit. didn't just, the whole thing and I was like, you know what? I give it grace, you know, I give the whole situation grace like, man, it's, Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah. Pj Verdin: I get it, know, maybe, I don't think that his intent was like, ⁓ fake it until you make it. But I think he was basically just maybe in his own way, just trying to like jumpstart it instead of letting the spirit do what the spirit does. And so, and to be honest with you, while we're talking about this, like I said, ⁓ know, tongues is one of those things that I unfortunately think that too much emphasis gets kind of put on. And I have brothers and sisters in Christ. Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Mm. Pj Verdin: that I disagree with about this topic. And I still love him to death, man. It is what it is. I'm like, there's no problem with agreeing to disagree. But unfortunately, I'm not 100 % sure to be honest, because I've never gotten a direct ⁓ answer or explanation. But I do believe that this specific topic is part of a reason, at least part of a reason, why I've been asked personally to not even come back to a church. And that's Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Pj Verdin: was a huge blow. It was kind of like a blind side and Randy - 3minute Speech: ⁓ So you were asked not to attend the church because of your stance on tongues? Because of your... Pj Verdin: I again, I'm not 100 % sure. basically, ⁓ I so so it was a pastor of this church. And I said, you know, okay, I respect your your wishes. And to be honest with you, at the time, whenever he told me I, I had no idea what what it was in reference to. And I even asked and unfortunately, I didn't get that answer. But ⁓ Randy - 3minute Speech: And who asked you, by the way, who asked you that? ⁓ wow. Pj Verdin: you know, not to get too far into it, but he and I had ⁓ had kind of had the this this dialogue back and forth a little bit back and forth about tongues. so we kind of knew that we had a difference of opinion there. And I'm like, I'm like, that's fine. Like, it's OK. Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm. Okay, yeah. Well, that's good, at least at least, at least, you know, he was open to having the conversation and you were open to share what you're what you felt about it with them. That's good that you had the conversation. I think that's more than you know, most people would do if they disagreed with something their pastor was teaching. Pj Verdin: Right. Right, so I was appreciated and respected the fact that he was even open to talk to me. And I was like, man, I just want you to understand, like, this is not me trying to, you know, come against you. I'm genuinely curious because I see it differently. And so we had this conversation. So I thought I'm like, cool, this is like you said, this is a very good thing. This is an open line of communication. So then, you know, fast forward to whenever I received this message asking me not to come back and and and said, you know, Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah, right. Pj Verdin: Due to circumstances and and things that you believe and i'm just like well, what are those things? So they were never really clarified but on I guess after some time had passed, you know, I I heard that that like I said at least a part of it was due to a conversation that that me and ⁓ a big group of believers and and even a couple non-believers had about speaking in tongues and to be honest with you It was an amazing conversation. We you know, it was We were very open with each other and honest and respectful. the guy, one of the guys that I was speaking to in particular, he spoke in tongues. He does. And to be honest with you, from our conversation, he does it more in line with the scripture. He's more of like, man, I'm not going to stand up in front of the church and just start speaking in this prayer language. I kind of keep it to myself in my prayer closet or whatever. And he's told me, he's like, man, he is one of those guys. He's like, it just happens. And so it was a beautiful conversation, And in this setting, everybody was excited. So I don't know where it got twisted or whatever, but yeah, it ultimately led to me not being asked to not go back to that church. Randy - 3minute Speech: Okay, okay. Well, let me just- Let me just ask this question. Was this a Bible study that was sponsored by the church that you were leading? Pj Verdin: No, no, not at all. Like this was just ⁓ a group of believers in Christ fellowshiping together. you know, I pretty much always have my Bible with me. And, you know, I just asked the question and, you know, just out of curiosity to a fellow believer. then, yeah, so we just kind of went, you know, had an open discussion. Randy - 3minute Speech: So you just, just, so this is not like an official like home group or anything. It's just not a Bible study. It's just like a bunch of guys who happen to just be friends hanging out. Some of you go to the same church and you're having a conversation. Pj Verdin: Nose. Yeah, it's about it's about the equivalent of you and I sitting here talking right now, you know what mean? Randy - 3minute Speech: And then so you guys are having this conversation, you've kind of expressed to the group, you know, where you stand, other people disagree with you. Some people think you guys do Christians are crazy because they're not you said there were some folks there who are not even believers, right? Pj Verdin: Well, well, no, right there there was there was a couple people that ⁓ that were not necessarily believers but but was also engaged in the conversation and that was the beautiful thing right because he even you know, he was getting some word right and and he was involved and he was intrigued and he was listening and he you know, he even took it to the the point of saying like man like, you know church should be like this he's like because you know, it's not just Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Pj Verdin: y'all sitting here trying to tell me what y'all think. Like there's a back and forth. I'm hearing different sides. I'm able to give input. And so like I said, for everybody that was there, like all the feedback and people kept talking about this in a positive way. Like, man, you know, that was so good for our spirit. felt like this was on sharpen and iron and everybody was pumped up. So I don't know how it got from, that scenario to apparently. again, this is, this is somewhat speculation. I just, I was told that Randy - 3minute Speech: Yes, yes. Pj Verdin: that this conversation had something to do with this decision. again, I've never gotten the full clarity from ⁓ the pastor himself, and that's fine. I still got nothing but... Randy - 3minute Speech: Well, let me ask this, let me ask this, how much time passed between when this conversation happened and you got the message or the call or whatever you got from the pastor? Pj Verdin: man, you know, I want to say maybe, I'd probably say at least a month or so, you know, a month and maybe some change. I think, you know, I'm not, I don't really remember the timeline too much, but, know, while I'm talking about this, just, you know, again, I have, you know, I responded with, you know, I still love and respect this pastor and he's the pastor of the church and Randy - 3minute Speech: Okay. Pj Verdin: If that's how he feels, then know, then then our respect his wishes. So I mean, there's no hard feelings there. You know, ⁓ Randy - 3minute Speech: Okay. But in terms of from, from your perspective though, you can't really think of any other reasons besides this conversation. Can you Pj Verdin: No. ⁓ and I guess that's, that was my main thing. That was, you know, if I had been in a different place in my walk, you know, I do believe that this is very much the reason why some people get church hurt. You know what I mean? ⁓ But I was like, man, you know, it's all right. You know, my wife and I prayed through it and, you know, we just, you know, kind of gave it to God. And, but yeah, man, I don't know. And that was the hardest thing, you know, being told, Hey, look, you know, don't come back to this church because of, you know, the circumstance and some of your beliefs. And I'm like, well, what does that look like? What situation are we talking about? And, ⁓ you know, I said, I know we've had ⁓ differences of opinion on some doctrine, but I didn't think that it was this serious enough to be asked not to come back. And I never got that clarity, to be honest with you. And that was pretty frustrating. But I'm like, hey, look, it's... Randy - 3minute Speech: Right, right. It's back to what we talked about previously, how there's a lot of open-handed and then there's closed-handed issues. And I think for me at least, this topic of tongues is an open-handed issue. I don't have any issues being in a church denomination or congregation where people do speak tongues. It's not an issue I think it's worth making a big deal over. I think it's one that we could respectfully disagree with people. Pj Verdin: It is what it is, you know? 100%. Absolutely. Randy - 3minute Speech: and still have good fellowship with them. that's very unfortunate. But thanks for walking us through that experience because that's your experience. mean, you lived this and I know that that wasn't, this is not, you're not talking about years ago. You're talking about something that was fairly recent. ⁓ Pj Verdin: Fairly recent. Yep. And I mean, to be honest with you, it's still, you know, it was a big deal devastated my whole family because my family was very much plugged in. And, ⁓ you know, yeah, it's just, it's been a crazy time, crazy experience. Randy - 3minute Speech: I bet. Yeah. Well, well, I've had some experiences ⁓ with pastors and with people who, you know, wanted to really debate me and argue with me about the topic of tongues as well. I will say that the conversation I had ⁓ about, you know, that I mentioned earlier about whether or not it was a voluntary versus involuntary ⁓ prayer thing that was happening, that kind of came about from some experiences that I had had. where I was, I won't say the name of the place I was at, but I went to several events, gatherings of different churches within a certain denomination where I did feel like these were very great events. ⁓ The Spirit of God really moved into these events. It was a couple of days of just, know, teenagers getting together and fellowshiping and hearing a lot of the word preached and a lot of worship time. But I felt like they always culminated with an altar call. which was great. I usually would go down to those alter calls myself, but it always cultivated with an altar call that I really felt like things like tongues and we won't get into this today, but even like being slain in the spirit was heavily pushed where people would essentially fall on the ground and convulse. And, and I felt like I never heard any coaching like you mentioned earlier where someone said, just speak real fast or anything like that. But I did feel like there was a pressure there. There was an expectation. Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Right. Randy - 3minute Speech: that the pastors and the leaders of the events was very much, you know, expecting people to manifest this, you know, spiritual gift in terms of this prayer language. So I've experienced that on several occasions myself, and that was kind of what generated the conversation. That was the genesis of the conversation that I had with folks was because I had witnessed this so many times, and I just remember thinking to myself and even praying, you know, Pj Verdin: prayer language. Yeah. Randy - 3minute Speech: because I didn't know if this was something that I should be seeking after and praying. And what I'm talking about in this case is specifically this prayer language version or idea of tongues. I didn't know if this was something I should be seeking after because I always kind of had the mentality that whenever I go to pray and that's what comes out, that's when I'm going to pray in tongues, right? And it never happened for me. that's what kind of, after witnessing this so many times, that's what started that conversation and what prompted me to ask those questions because Pj Verdin: Correct. Yep. Yep. Randy - 3minute Speech: I've always kind of looked at tongues the way I see it show up in the upper room on the day of Pentecost. I've always looked at it as when people receive this gift, and by the way, it's a gift that I believe still exists today. I do believe that there's no, I don't believe in the fact that there's been any cessation of gifts. I believe that if the time and place merits it, God will absolutely ⁓ do some sort of miraculous interpretation where either Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy - 3minute Speech: you are going to speak in the language of the local people that you're administering to, so that they can hear the gospel or else they're going to hear some sort of miraculous interpretation while you continue to speak in your native tongue. I don't know, it could probably work either way from my opinion. I don't really care. All I care about is I truly believe that it's an actual language that's being spoken and an actual language that's being heard versus what we have been talking about in terms of tongues as a spiritual language. which is neither. It's neither a language that is spoken that makes any sense to the speaker or a language that makes any sense to the hearers. Yeah, yeah. Pj Verdin: people hearing it correct. And look man and you know I guess if they're like I said it's tongues is not a big deal to me what was on my heart though at the time you know and it's one of those things right well where I felt like you know I was looking from the perspective of of new believers you know at the time you know specifically for this church like we it was growing the Lord was moving mightily in this place. And I'm like, man, so we get new people that walk through these doors and they're coming here. God got them in the building to hear a word and what they hear is this language that they don't understand. And so they're not getting that word of God. And I'm like, just, it's like, I feel like we're doing them a disservice. Like, if this took everything that they got to get to this building to hear a word from God? Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Pj Verdin: and what they're hearing is stuff that they don't understand. And it's kind of one of those extremes, right? It's like, you know, don't get me wrong. There's, know, whenever you become a new believer, there's a lot of things that are new, but this is something that is completely like at the most extreme. Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. And it's foreign even to a lot of Christians. Christians. Yeah. Pj Verdin: Correct, correct. So Correct, correct. So even people who at least understand what is going on or what's supposed to be going on or however you want to phrase that, it's still kind of like it can be off-putting. ⁓ Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Well. Right. And I know one pastor personally that I that I still speak to to this day that actually for that exact reason, the confusion amongst unbelievers who may enter on a Sunday morning. I know this one pastor who asked his congregation. said, look, I understand some of you speak in tongues. I myself speak in tongues, but let's not do it on Sunday morning because we get lots of visitors and guests who come in and we don't want to confuse them or put them off in any way. And so he simply asked, you know, we have Sunday night service. We have a Wednesday night service. You have your Bible studies, you know, that we have throughout the church throughout the week. You have your home groups. You pray on your own time. Any of those other times you are okay to speak and pray in tongues, but let's just reserve Sunday morning for the guests and the unbelievers and not do it here. And that caused such a big upheaval him just, which I think that's a pretty reasonable stance. You're saying you actually speak in tongues too, but Pj Verdin: That's Absolutely. Randy - 3minute Speech: Let's not do it here. And again, we're talking about this prayer language, right? And there were people who left the church over. There were several people who got so upset. said he was quenching the Holy Spirit or something like that. And they left the church because of that. Pj Verdin: Yeah, see, people always try to say, ⁓ well, if you're ashamed, it's not about being ashamed of God. It's about, you know, trying to win souls. Right. And here's the thing. Are they mad at Paul because he said that I'd rather, you know, speak in a sentence that people could understand than a thousand words in this prayer language. Like, are they upset with Paul? It's just wild to me, man. Randy - 3minute Speech: Right, right. So, so another experience I wanted to share with you that I had was ⁓ this was a little bit later. So the experiences that I shared at this, this, you know, big Bible festival, those were when I was a teenager. ⁓ Now, fast forward, I'm in my early twenties, right? And I'm actually in a college and career ⁓ group with a bunch of other people in their early twenties. And the top, this topic came up. and the way it was being taught, it was being taught that one, tongues is all about speaking in a prayer language and two, it is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and if you don't have it, you don't have the Holy Spirit. And so I disagreed with that in this Bible studying setting where we're talking scriptures and we're having conversation and dialogue, I thought it was a good conversation. So in the one week that we, the first week we were talking about this, I... Pj Verdin: Hmm. Randy - 3minute Speech: spoke up and I shared that I disagreed. In the next week, one of the other group members whose father was a pastor came with their father, brought their father to correct me, phoned a friend, yeah, and she brought her dad who was a pastor to come and correct me. And he showed me time and time again in the scriptures where... ⁓ Pj Verdin: Phone a friend, phone a friend. Randy - 3minute Speech: this happened. Now, I don't remember every verse that he brought up, but I would say that what I remember of that conversation was sometimes it said that they were baptized or they believed and they received the Holy Spirit. And sometimes it said that they actually spoke in tongues, but he was equating speaking in tongues with receiving the Holy Spirit and not every verse that he quoted to me showed them actually speaking in any sort of tongue. ⁓ Pj Verdin: Yeah. That's another thing that happened. to cut you off, but they make, I've seen people make speaking in tongues and Holy Spirit synonymous. anytime that they, they mentioned one or the other, both, it's not always the case. So. Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah, yeah. again, you know, we've so we had this disagreement. ⁓ And honestly, like, I know the girl at least who brought her father was very upset because, know, ⁓ I didn't agree with him. And I guess she thought at least and probably some of the other people in the group thought that because he was a pastor and he had, you know, some initials by his name or he had a doctorate degree or whatever he had or he was, you know, given a title in a position. that I was just totally out of place to disagree with him. And I was obviously wrong. And that, you know, I was just being rude and disrespectful for voicing disagreement. And my perspective was, look, I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful. I'm just respectfully disagreeing and saying that I don't understand. You're to have to show me more if you really expect me to not only believe this is the case, but then also exhibit this behavior myself. Right. And I never really got to that point where, where I, I I was convinced and I'm still not convinced. so today, where I stand on the topic is, I'll be honest, I really honestly do not believe there is any such thing as a prayer language. I do not believe that. There is not an ounce of me that believes that there is anything close to a prayer language. I 100 % believe that every single time The Bible talks about speaking in tongues and I haven't done the research to see if it's always using that same Greek word or not. But I totally believe that every single time it's talking about a language, an actual understood human language. That's what I really believe. Pj Verdin: Yeah, mean, you know, I'm pretty close to that. mean, like I said, the only thing that I don't I can't just say with with 100 % certainty is, you know, I do know that, that there are some people that that do it. And I'm not I'm not just going to discount, know, what they what they're doing. I don't know. I don't know how to explain that, honestly. But but and that's neither here nor there. That's that's again, that's them between them and God. But but but based off what I see in the scriptures, I mean, I agree. I think that whenever we're talking about the the gift of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, I do think that the miracle is just that. think that, you know, it's it's basically allowing the word of God to be spoken and understood no matter the circumstance. Right. I think that that's the purpose of it. And you know, here's another thing. Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Pj Verdin: that I think of, ⁓ like, you know, just with, we understand through scripture that God is consistent, right? He's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. And throughout scripture, you see these things reoccurring and reoccurring, through the consistency of God's character. Well, so, you know, whenever we're talking about a prayer language, you know, and this is just how it kind of made sense to me in my head. And this is, you know, Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: take this with a grain of salt, this is just how I kind of worked it out in my head. I was like, okay, well, this prayer language that nobody understands, like, let's just say it's like a superpower, right? You're speaking this language that you don't understand. The only person that understands it is God. So it's like a superpower in that sense, because it's just different than everything else, right? Well, with kind of that idea in mind, I'm like, okay, well, Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: I go to the example of Jesus whenever he spit and washed the guy's eyes and he went from being blind to being able to see. Now I use that specific, he healed, ⁓ he made a lot of blind people see, but I use that one specifically because in my mind I'm like, you got Jesus DNA in these eyeballs. And it said he went from being blind to being able to see, but it didn't say that like whenever he was able to see now, like he could see the spiritual realm around us or if he could see, you know, angels or he could see, it just said he was able to see. Randy - 3minute Speech: Right, right. Right. Pj Verdin: Right. So whenever, whenever, whenever God heals the lame and says, get up and walk, you know, he didn't say, ⁓ all of a sudden they're just super fast. No, they couldn't walk. Now they could walk. They couldn't see. Now they can see they couldn't understand. Now they can't. So I see this consistency there that it's not just like, ⁓ like this is some extra, extra thing. The miracle is what has taken place. You've gone from this to this in the same way of us being dirty rotten sinners to being Randy - 3minute Speech: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Pj Verdin: Redeemed perfect rights, you know Because of him like that's what I see the consistency there. It's not an extra thing, you know Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I agree with that. And let me just say, so, you know, I mentioned I'm pretty firm on my belief that I don't think that tongues is anything other than a miraculous interpretation or miraculous speaking of a real language. I don't believe in any sort of per language. And let me just tell you the two reasons why I personally believe that. The first reason is if I think about the fact that God has given us a logical mind and he's given us the ability to reason, which no other animals have. I have to think, well, what is the logical reason that he gave tongues in the upper room and in various other very clear passages of scripture? And to me, it was reversing what was done at the Tower of Babel, right? Where God basically wanted to separate mankind because of their sin. Now he wanted to bring mankind together to share the gospel. So how does Pj Verdin: Tower of Babel. Right. Randy - 3minute Speech: a secret prayer language do that. And in my mind, it just doesn't. So I don't see any kind of benefit or any other edification. if the argument is, well, the edification or the benefit is for the person praying, explain to me how that would be any more or less of a benefit than them praying in a language that anyone could understand. To me, it just doesn't make any logical sense. Therefore, I don't think that I have to think about the initial purpose and intent of tongues in the miracle of that gift. Pj Verdin: . Randy - 3minute Speech: And I do think it has to do with spreading the gospel. that's the first reason that I believe ⁓ that it's not a prayer language. The second reason is if you look at all the different verses in the Bible that talk about tongues, I think you could pretty much replace the word tongues with language in almost every single case. it makes even more sense. Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy - 3minute Speech: The one verse that I know people are probably gonna think of, they're gonna think of 1 Corinthians 13 one, where Paul says, if I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn't love others, I would be a noisy gong or clinging symbol. And they're gonna point out the fact that he says languages of earth and of angels, what is this language of angels? And so my answer to that would be, what it's not is this gibberish babbling. Secret language that's not what the language of angels is what I would say is i'm not a hebrew scholar but my opinion is that The jewish tradition is that the language of hebrew is the language of angels the language of hebrew is called Yeah, they see it as the language of god. It's called the lashon haqadash Which basically means the holy tongue in the hebrew tradition Pj Verdin: language of God, believe, actually. Randy - 3minute Speech: the Jewish tradition, that is the language, Hebrew is the language that God spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai. It is the language he gave the 10 commandments to the people in. So it only makes logical sense that they would see it as a holy language, the language of God, the language of angels. They have a lot of reverence for Hebrew. And so if you think about it from that context and go back and read any verse where it's talking about tongues, I think you're gonna see that it's either A, a miraculous interpretation where someone is speaking in a quote unquote tongue to share the gospel or B, they are praying in Hebrew. And again, these were a lot of these early Christians were Hebrews who were used to praying prayers in Hebrew. Pj Verdin: Well, and I think it's really important to notate just for context that in that verse that you're referencing in 1 Corinthians 13, that even though it's mentioned that, know, heavenly language there, if you read that in the proper context, what you're going to find out is that is just an exaggeration that Paul's using about the whole topic of love. And he notates many things. You know, he basically talks about being burned or, you know, all these things. And he's not saying that that's Randy - 3minute Speech: Right, right. Pj Verdin: what's going on is just an exaggeration statement of he's explaining love. That's known as the love chapter. But what I would say is this. you know, ⁓ if you go in Acts two, whenever the day of Pentecost happens, you have Acts 10 verses 44 through 48, when the Holy Spirit falls on the Gentiles, and you go to Acts 19, whenever it's ⁓ Paul at Ephesus, I think these are the three times that you see tongues Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Pj Verdin: talked about in the book of Acts, right? Now, what I see there, and I encourage everybody to go look at these verses for yourself, get in your Bible, and what you'll see is in all the accounts of speaking in tongues in Acts, it is clearly stated that they were filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit fell upon them and the Holy Spirit came upon them. All three times in these Acts, it specifically mentions that that the Holy Spirit was involved. Now, whenever you move to Corinthians, you got 1 Corinthians 13, 1 Corinthians 14, whenever it starts talking about speaking in tongues, there's this shift, right? Now, kind of in line with what you said earlier, you know, because I have heard a pastor say this, I'm like, in Acts, the Holy Spirit comes down and there's no, it's almost like there's no choice, right? Because the Holy Spirit comes down and this happens. Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: Now he was like, ⁓ well, you know, kind of like you said, God is not going to make us do anything. And could these people have rejected the presence of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely. But that's not the type of choice that I'm talking about. In all three instances in Acts where Tongues has talked about the Holy Spirit comes down and is present and these people allow the Holy Spirit to move through them. ⁓ Whenever you go to Corinthians and Paul starts talking about, you know, ⁓ if I speak in a Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Pj Verdin: Tongues or if I speak in a language if I and he's going back and has this duality showing that he has the choice to either speak In a way that everybody understands or speak in a way that they don't he has this choice It doesn't it also doesn't mention anything about necessarily the Holy Spirit. So going back to what you're saying from my understanding And and putting things into context, right? And and you know what? I'm gonna pause right here and we'll actually Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: in a minute, we'll go get into 1 Corinthians 14 so that I let the Bible speak for itself and then we'll kind go on and elaborate. But it does go in line with the point that you just made about Hebrew basically being the language of God. Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah, well, and let me just say one thing about that. And we touched on a little bit in one of our previous episodes about the fact that when we are reading these verses, when we are studying the Bible in general, it's very important that we pay attention to the context, the audience, what, know, whether it's under the old covenant or the new covenant, those things make a huge difference in how we should interpret the scriptures. And I think one thing that a lot of Christians overlook as well is the Hebrew traditions and the Hebrew teachings of the time. Because you got to remember this stuff was written 2000 years ago by a bunch of Hebrews in a lot of cases to a bunch of Hebrews. Right. Remember there used to be Fubu. This could be like hubu, know, like he something like Seabrew like something like that for Hebrews by Hebrews, something like that. I mean, and then and then you got other instances where it's mostly written from, you know, Hebrews to Pj Verdin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Randy - 3minute Speech: Gentile Christians and so like understanding what the the audience would have believed at the time and what the cultural context would have been will help us understand the scriptures a lot better so if we were living there to in 2,000 years ago and we heard Paul talk about You know the language of a man or the language of angels. It's very possible that it might there might have just been a general understanding of what this was and there might not have been any confusion. And if we were to go back and introduce them to this concept of some sort of secret pearling, which they might look at us like we're crazy. They might clearly, they might be very firm. They might be a lot more straightforward than we're being right now and say, ⁓ absolutely not because everybody knows this is what that is, right? But we don't know, cause we don't have that context. And unfortunately, you know, most churches and most pastors don't really get into that a whole lot, which Pj Verdin: Okay. Randy - 3minute Speech: is in my opinion is honestly, you know, an area that we could all improve upon because we should really understand and know the roots of our faith and our faith is rooted in the Jewish tradition. That's why it's called the Judeo-Christian, you know, tradition, right? Because Christianity came from Judaism. The old, the new covenant came from the old covenant, right? It's the fulfillment, right? So we have to... Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Randy - 3minute Speech: We have to put things in context. I think part of that is understanding the culture and the historical aspect of things as well. Pj Verdin: Absolutely. So if you don't have any objection, I'm going to jump into 1 Corinthians 14. ⁓ starting in verse two, says, he who speaks in the tongue does not, and I apologize, this is the New King James Version. So for he who speaks in the tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Randy - 3minute Speech: I object, you cannot read the Bible on this episode. of course, course, man, jump into it. Pj Verdin: for no one understands him. However, in the spirit he speaks mysteries, but he who prophesies speaks edification and exoneration and comfort to men. He who speaks in the tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied, for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets that the church may receive edification. And ⁓ if you don't mind, I'm going to... Just continue to read through to verse 18. So picking up in verse six. But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying or by teaching? Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? For if a trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? So likewise you. unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. There are, it may be so many kinds of languages in the world and none of them is without significance. Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. Even so, you, even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, Let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel. Therefore, let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say amen? at your giving of thanks since he does not understand what you say. For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank God I speak with tongues more than all of you. Yet in a church, I would rather speak five words with my understanding that I may teach others also than 10,000 words in a tongue. So now, you know, whenever it comes to the topic of tongues, one thing that is pretty consistent is everybody wants to reference Paul. And so ⁓ Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah, yeah. And that's another commonly quoted passage for people who do believe that tongues quote unquote exist as a per language. I've heard that quoted several times, you know, in that regard. Pj Verdin: apologists spoke for himself. Right, right. Because so people will take that verse to very in the very beginning and say that, ⁓ you know, ⁓ if he's speaking, if a person understands what he's saying, then then, you know, he's not speaking mysteries. And if he's speaking in a tongue, then he's speaking to God. ⁓ But I believe whenever you look at the. This passage, all of it through the perspective of, you know, our own experience. then it can be difficult to understand because we're not Jewish, like we've said, right? So, but you're not considering the foundationary evidence of speaking in tongues. Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm, right. Yeah. Well, and I could totally see how when Paul says some of the things he says in there, like the first verse or two, can you read the first verse again? Just to make sure I don't want to misquote it. Pj Verdin: Well, I started in verse two. So it says, for he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God for no one. Randy - 3minute Speech: Right there, okay. So right there. So just even stop it right there. I could totally see why people would say, hey, look, this is a prayer language between me and God. I'm not speaking to men. So therefore your theories of it being a language is totally out the window. And then, go ahead. Pj Verdin: Absolutely. I want to speak to God. Well, especially backed up by this very next thing that says, ⁓ however, if you speak in the spirit, you speak mysteries. See, I'm not supposed to understand what I'm saying, Randy. I'm not supposed to understand it because I'm speaking to God, not to you, not to me. I'm not supposed to understand it. I'm speaking mysteries. Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And again, yeah. And I'm and I'm very sympathetic who people to people who have experienced a feeling that has led them to speaking in tongues and look at verses like this as some sort of edification to them that they're doing the right thing. I totally I'm very sympathetic to that. I don't claim to understand fully the passage or the historical context, but I think from my opinion, you know, that that could easily still apply if we're talking about someone praying in Hebrew, especially if they are a Hebrew Christian who believes that they are speaking in a sacred, holy language that angels and God speaks, and they're praying it as a Hebrew Christian around other Christians who are not Hebrew, who for them, it would very much be babbling. Or for example, for someone like me who is, let's just say, for example, ⁓ a Gentile, I'm a Gentile. And I could say, I could say those words. I don't know what they mean. Those are words that I've memorized that are Hebrew words that I've memorized. So if I'm praying a prayer that I've memorized in Hebrew, I could easily say what Paul just said there. And I could say, look, I'm even praying in this language that was taught to me by other Jewish Christians. I don't even know what I'm saying, but God knows it. So I'm just going to keep praying it. It's not any different. And one more point on that real quick. Pj Verdin: Well, Randy - 3minute Speech: Just a little history lesson for anyone who might be listening. If you've ever heard of the word barbarian, you should know that the word barbarian comes from a Greek word that literally means people who babble. Like literally it's talking about people who are babbling. we know that whoever they were referring to, whether it was ⁓ the Germans or whether they were talking about the... the Germans that they were always fighting and conquering or the people they called the Gauls who were French people that they were always fighting and conquering. They called all those people barbarians, which just basically meant they were babbling. They were speaking some babble that the Romans didn't understand. But those were actual languages those people were speaking. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Well, so the funny thing is, is and I mean, you know, you can go and look this up just historically. So, you know, we have to remember we're in the book of Corinthians. Right. So the Church of Corinth that Paul is talking to here, they have a ⁓ background in coming from like a synagogue. Right. So a lot of those those the way that they operate, they're kind of carried over. Right. To this church. And the setting consists of Jewish people with Jewish traditions as well as converts to Judaism, right? And so what they used to do even before all this stuff like whenever the Pharisees and stuff would go out and they would convert, you know Gentiles or Convert people over to Judaism what they would do was they would teach them how to sing and pray in Hebrew That's what they would do. You can look that up. So so Randy - 3minute Speech: Yes. Yep. Pj Verdin: You have somebody like me, Gentile come in. I've just been converted to Judaism and they're like, hey, listen, out of respect, if you're going to pray or sing to God to praise him, you need to do it in Hebrew. So they would teach it to you and you could recite it. Now you're literally speaking mysteries to yourself because you don't know what you're saying. Right. So I mean, whenever I was a kid, I learned how to sing the bomb. It's in Spanish. Don't know what he's saying. Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Exactly, exactly. Well, and just to hammer that point home even more, we as Christians, if anyone out there that's listening is Catholic, know there's been a big to do about whether the mass should be done in Latin or not. And for the most of Christian history, the mass was only done in Latin because Latin was seen as somehow a better language and English, the common tongue was seen more as a vulgar. And so there are still, Catholic churches out there who will only do the mass in Latin. they're basically they went through the same thing that early Christians went through with Hebrew is my point. Pj Verdin: Right. Well, and so, but I mean, so just to put this in the context. So if we know historically that that and again, even most Jews didn't speak Hebrew back then, a lot of them spoke Aramaic at the time. know what I mean? Hebrew was not the most commonly spoke. Right, right. Hundred percent. So. Randy - 3minute Speech: It was for the educated. Yeah, it was the educated Jews who grew up in the, you know, learned the law in the, were teaching, you know, the teaching in the synagogue by the rabbis and yeah. Pj Verdin: Right. So, so if you, if you understand this from, from the Jew, ⁓ the Jew perspective, instead of your own personal perspective, then it makes sense. And like you said, this was probably common knowledge to them. So if you go back and look at this verse in context, now understanding that it's probably a Gentile who is able to recite prayers and praise and worship songs in a language that they don't understand God's language, then guess what? For he who speaks in the tongue does not speak to men, but speaks to God. You and I are both taught the same prayer, but if we're saying that neither one of us understand it, but it's God's language. So we're speaking to God. And guess what? Because we don't understand it, we're uttering mysteries. So that's how I see that. That's, that's again, consistent with still thinking, right? That, that tongues themselves that Paul's referencing here, tongues is still an understood language, not it's, it's, it's Hebrew. You and I don't understand Hebrew, but we can speak it, but it's still a spoken language. Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Pj Verdin: So that carries out even through all the way down through the rest of the things that I read all the way down to verse 18. If you think in context, and especially to the part where he says, if I pray in the spirit, I will also pray with understanding. If I sing in the spirit, I will also sing in understanding. That in and of itself sounds like church, right? Praying and singing in a setting. So that's in line with them teaching Gentiles how to speak Hebrew. Randy - 3minute Speech: Mm-hmm. Right. Pj Verdin: to pray and to sing. But he's talking about this duality of, I speak Hebrew knowing that nobody else understands it or do I speak so that they can understand it? He's like, maybe I'll just do both, right? But again, everything that I see here is to the example of there's an understanding so that the word of God can be shared between two or more people. ⁓ it was crazy. So whenever I was doing this deep dive, I was just kinda... you know, I was focusing on tongues, what led me, you know, I kept reading Corinthians, I finished out, you know, chapter 14. And it's funny, if you go down a little bit further from 14, 18 to 14, 33, it says, God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. And I'm like, it just really, it spoke to my heart, because I'm like, you know, the thing is, is Randy - 3minute Speech: Right. Pj Verdin: whenever we're uttering these mysteries, so to speak, in the way that people view it, it's like that doesn't do nothing but cause confusion, right? I mean, also division, and we know that that's not ⁓ God's intent either. it was just, it's just a lot, man. ⁓ And look, again, that's the way that I see it because it's here in the scriptures and it's consistent with the rest of the Bible. ⁓ Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah. Pj Verdin: I've looked into it, I've prayed on it, and that's where I'm at. mean, listen, I don't, for those of you out there who do speak in tongues in a different way, man, I'm not trying to discredit anything that you're doing, or I'm not trying to take anything away from you. I'm just saying as for myself, my walk, my personal views, and what the scriptures say to me, that's the way I see it. And I mean... That's, again, I'm not trying to, I may be wrong, you know, and if I am, please allow me the grace to, you know, to have that revealed to me and to, you know, to just be, to just be wrong. Randy - 3minute Speech: Yeah. And I think, I think grace is the key, man. And I think that's even, you know, Paul's even showing that grace when he's even talking about this, you know, back then he's basically telling people, I'm going to have grace towards you. We should have grace towards each other. You know, we should pray in a way that other people could understand and be edified. But you know, if you want, if you're going to pray this way and, know, we could debate whether he's talking about Hebrew or something else, but he's basically saying, let's have grace and, and, and we should have grace, but at the same time, you know what? That's why, you know, Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy - 3minute Speech: The Bible also says that not a lot of people among you should desire to be teachers and leaders because you're gonna be held to a higher standard So if you're a pastor out there and you're standing up telling people You know, especially if you're telling people don't come back to my church because you disagree with me You need to you need to realize that you're gonna be held to a higher standard or if you're misquoting the scriptures or just you know either through just willful ignorance or you know, whatever, you know understand that you know, God is a judge as well and While we do have grace, you know, we have to do our due diligence. So I think ⁓ in summary here, you know, what we're both saying is that we absolutely believe that tongues is a spiritual gift that still exists today. We totally believe that we're in accord, one accord there. But we also believe that it is ⁓ an interpretation of actual languages. ⁓ It is not a prayer language. I think we both agree with that. So with that, brother, what do you think? Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Well, I guess that'll probably wrap it up for this one, That's, know, and we don't even wrong. There's, there's, there's a lot more to be said, but again, you know, this is one of those things that I think it's good to speak to, but not to, dwell and hover over. It's, know, but yeah, I mean, I would encourage anybody out there, you know, to ask the questions, man, just, you know, understand, but ultimately get in the scriptures for yourself. Do, do your own research, you know, spend some quiet time with God. and see what he reveals to you on this and anything else. Randy - 3minute Speech: All right, well, hey, I think that does it for this episode of Walk Talk. So thank you all so much for listening. And if you haven't already, please follow the show. And before you go, leave your favorite verse in the comments below. God bless. Pj Verdin: God bless.