Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 338: Aggressive Whitetail Hunting with Greg Miller

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Ep. 338: Aggressive Whitetail Hunting with Greg Miller · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode three, and
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: today in the show, I'm joined by outdoor writer, TV host,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: and white tail expert Greg Miller to discuss his aggressive
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: approach to hunting deer across the country. All Right, welcome
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: to the Wired Hunt podcast, brought to you by Onyx.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Today on the show, I'm joined by Greg Miller, and
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Greg's a guy wanted to chat to for quite a
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: while now, so I'm excited this episode is happening. Gregg
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: is the author of multiple books tuttles, including Aggressive white
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Tail Hunting, uh Bow Hunting, Forests in Deep Woods, and
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: rub Line Secrets, and he's written for many of the
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: top hunting magazines, hosted several deer hunting TV shows, and
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: in short, he's just done a tremendous amount in the
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: world of white tails and has been at it at
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: a very high level for a long time. He just
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: brings a tremendous amount of wisdom to the table, so
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: having him the show is a real pleasure. And in
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: this conversation, I wanted to drill down into a variety
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: of topics, such as what his form of aggressive white
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: tail hunting looks like, how times and tactics have changed
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: since he first got into this whole white tail thing,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: what his unique perspectives are on utilizing rub lines, which
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: he really focuses a lot, on um, why he used
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: deer decoys so much, which is pretty interesting, and and
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: a lot more so. That's what we've got in store
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: for you here shortly. It's good stuff. I enjoyed it.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: I hope you do too. But before we get to that,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I did want to touch on a couple of quick
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: other things. First off, I just want to give a
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: big high five, uh, shake of the hand, pat on
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: the back to all of you who have been out
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: there picking up trash on your shed hunting trips. I've
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: been seeing tons of pictures with the times in Trash
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  Speaker 1: hashtag over on Instagram, and I'm just, I'm just I'm
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: damn proud of how many of you are getting out
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  Speaker 1: there and doing this stuff, cleaning up the woods. You're
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: setting a great example, and you're inspiring me and and
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure a whole lot of others too, So kudos
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  Speaker 1: to everyone who's out there participating in Times in Trash,
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  Speaker 1: keep at it. I think it's pretty darn cool. Uh.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Speaking of thanks, one other thing I wanted to point
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: out and just make up make a point of doing,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: is I wanted to thank all of you who have
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: purchased a copy of my recently published book, That Wild Country. Um.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: As you've probably heard in some of the past episodes
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: of the podcast, this was the most daunting project I've
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  Speaker 1: ever taken on, but the one that I'm pretty darn
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: sure is the one I'm most proud of and putting
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: that thing out into the world. Writing this book for
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: years behind the scenes and then putting it out to
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: you all. Honestly, it was a little scary. There were
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: so many questions around you. Is it any good? Will
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: people enjoy it? Will people buy it? And since the
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: initial launch you know these, the answer has been resounding yes.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: So many of you have shown your support by buying
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: the book or getting copies for friends and family, or
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: listening to the audiobook, or posting pictures on social media,
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: posting your views on Amazon. It's it's it's it's all
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  Speaker 1: just been amazing and so appreciate. It, and I can't
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: thank you all enough. Um. If you haven't yet picked
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: up a copy yet, no worries either. You do have
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: plenty of time still. You can grab paperback or hardcover
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: copies over Amazon or wherever you like teach your books. UM.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: The audiobook is over on Audible. You can listen to
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: it on your phone or your computer, your iPad, whatever. Um.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: And if you're in Michigan or anywhere in the Upper Midwest,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: I am doing another book signing coming up here pretty
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: spoon uh in Lansing, Michigan on April sixteen at Schuler Books.
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  Speaker 1: I'll be doing another event, so stay tuned for more
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: details on that. UM. And I guess for those if
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: there are some people out there are still on the fence,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: or if you're just hearing about the book for the
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  Speaker 1: first I'm I do have a couple of quick reviews
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  Speaker 1: from Amazon. I thought i'd share just to give you
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: a little perspective from some readers. Uh So here on
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: gonna quote two of these reviews. Let me see here alright. Quote.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I am not a person that reads books often, if ever,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: but I love this book. Mark Kenyon does an amazing
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: job painting the picture of his travels and of explaining
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: how and why our public lands came to be a
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  Speaker 1: great piece of writing. End quote. And here's one other
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  Speaker 1: one that I liked, um quote. This book is a
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  Speaker 1: great collection of stories and history about our nation's public lands,
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  Speaker 1: many of which I've never seen firsthand. But I'll be
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  Speaker 1: damned if he hasn't inspired me to get off my
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: ass and make an effort to both explore what I
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: haven't and to take action to protect what we have.
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  Speaker 1: This is a great read that instills hope for bipartisan
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  Speaker 1: railing of defense for the beautiful lands we have highly
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  Speaker 1: recommend end quote. So that's pretty cool to hear. If
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  Speaker 1: if this book can inspire folks to get out there
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  Speaker 1: and see these places and to try to stand up
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: for him, that is my dream come true. So love
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: love seeing that, And thank you to those who love
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: those reviews. Thanks to everybody else who's written a review. Uh,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: it's pretty incredible buying the book, spreading the good word.
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  Speaker 1: It's it's so appreciated. So I just want to make
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: a point to bring that up. With all that wrapped up, now,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: let's shift from talking about reading over to listening, and
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: in particular, let's listen to Greg Miller discuss aggressive white
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: tail hunting and a whole bunch more. All right with me?
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  Speaker 1: Now on the line is Greg Miller. Welcome to the show. Greg.
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  Speaker 1: It's uh, it's it's exciting to be able to have
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  Speaker 1: this chat. I have followed your articles and you on
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: on your various television appearances for a whole lot of
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  Speaker 1: years now. You've been a huge influence on a lot
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: of today's deer hunters, and so I want to first
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: and foremost thank you for for sharing everything you've been
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: learning over the years. And and secondly, for anyone who's
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: listening who has lived under a log and is not
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: aware of the things you've been doing for decades? Now,
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: can you give us just a real quick cliff notes
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Craig Miller one on one. I h I started writing
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: for North American white Tail magazine years ago. Um, I
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: guess it was probably six that they purchased my very
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: first article, and I was working construction at the time,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: doing concrete work. I was a concrete finisher. And then yeah,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: I started writing for them, and then a few other
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: magazines took interest in my work and saw what I
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: was doing. So long story short, within six years, I
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: don't come up up the construction work and uh and
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: went to a work full time as a freelanceoor writer,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: and I was doing seminars. Eventually transition and started doing
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: videos for like Hunter Specialties, Prime Time Bucks, Real Trees,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Monster Bucks. And then when the television craze kind of
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: took off in nearly two thousand's, uh, myself scan Pots
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: and pat Reeve started More American white tail television. UM
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: did that for four years and then started my own show. Uh.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: First one was in Pursu and then we transitioned into
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: the Hunt. And now I find myself at a point
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: where I've read a lot of miles, I've hunted a
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: lot of states. I think two for deer. I've killed
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: deer in seventeen different states. I founded three Canadian provinces,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: killed Big Books and two provinces. So I got a
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: little tired, so I pulled in my horns a little bit,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: started doing some magazine work again. And now am I'm
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: going to make guest appearances on North American white tail television,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: you know, three or four or five times a year.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: It's nice to be able to just have a little
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: bit more of a slower pace. I gotta believe wear
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Zenia after so many years going NonStop doing a thousand things. Um,
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  Speaker 1: something that you also did along the way, with all
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: the TV and the articles and everything, as he wrote
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: some books. And in one of your books, Till Aggressive
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: White Tail Hunting, the opening line was I'm pretty I'm
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: pretty sure this is the quote you said that there
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: are no absolutes or guarantees in the sport of deer hunting.
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  Speaker 1: And I thought it was interesting to open a book
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: in that way, right out the gate saying, hey, nothing
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: is for sure, nothing's guaranteed, there's no black and white here. Um.
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  Speaker 1: That struck me. Why did you choose to open your
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  Speaker 1: book that way? Why is that an important thing to you?
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  Speaker 1: I think it's it's and I don't think I know.
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  Speaker 1: It's because of a lot of past experiences with with
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  Speaker 1: mature deer in a lot of different places. And and
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: you can you can assume, and you can believe that
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: you have absolutely got a big deer figured out, and
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: about the time you do, he'll break your heart. Um,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: we've all been down that road. And the other the
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: other reason I did that is because I wrote those
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: books at a time when when people were really. They
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: still some people still are very us in short cuts guarantees. Um.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: You know, something that they can use or they they
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: can employ into their hunting efforts that they figure is
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  Speaker 1: just going to guarantee success and it's just not going
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  Speaker 1: to happen. I mean, there's successes and guaranteed and anything
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: that I really know of, but um, deer hunting, it's
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: a it's a sure way to um, you know, become frustrated,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: is to expect to be successful. I mean we all do,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: but I mean you've got to keep that part of
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: realism in the back of your mind all the time
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: that just because you think you're doing everything right doesn't
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: guarantee you're going to be successful. And the books, you know,
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: it was kind of partly the books to us. Reading
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: these books doesn't guarantee success. Didn't, didn't, won't guarantee success. Um.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: So it's just a primer, you know, it's it's it's
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: a perimeter for for maybe helping you. I always tell people,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: if I write a uh fifteen or eighteen chapter book
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: and you learn one thing in there, out of all
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: those fifty thousand words that I wrote for that book,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: if you learned one thing, then I've done my job.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: It definitely seems like it's still the case today that
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of people and I'm guilty of this in
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of cases too, So I'm calling myself out
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: here too. It's really easy to to read a lot
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: of stuff, to to get a lot of information these days, especially, Um,
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: there's so much information out there, whether it's a podcast
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: or YouTube videos or TV show or magazine or book,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: there's more information than ever before. It's so easy to
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: take all this information in, but I think it's a
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: lot harder to actually take something from that and put
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: it into action. Um, how have you gone about actually
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: learning something, whether it be from a resource you're reading
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: or watching, or from your own experience, and then actually
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: taking that learning and put into action? Like, can you
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: think of any like ways that you actually take action
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: on or learn from these things? Because it's I think
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: it's one of those things you just assume happens, but
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: it's easier said than done. Well, the first thing is
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: I learned long ago and because I wasn't a good
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: deer hunter. I wanted to be, but I wasn't. I
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: was getting busted. I wasn't seeing the type of deer
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: that I thought I should be seeing uh, with the
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: way I was hunting an individual deer, I thought, this deer,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: I've got him peg And I really I had kind
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: of developed a little bit of an ego as to, man,
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: I know it all now. And the one thing I
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: would really reinforce with with people, regardless of how experience
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: they are is deer hunters is never assume you know
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: it all. And um but beyond that, then I started
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: digging into when I wasn't successful. I became obsessed with
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out why I wasn't and that was
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: a huge, huge key in my achieving a more consistent
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: success rate. Was Okay, this dear dumped me, he fooled me,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: he outsmarted me. But how what did I do wrong?
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Or what did that you do right? That kept me
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: from putting him on the wall. And I think that
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: was a huge thing for me and probably well I'd
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: say going into the early nineteen nineties and a long
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: time ago that, um, I just knew I had to
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: expand my my learning curve even more. I had to
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: I had to acquire even more knowledge, you know. And
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: that was kind of tough for me to accept because
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: I really did think I knew at all, and I
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: knew a lot, and I it's never ending, you know
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: that market, It's a never ending quest to become a
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: better hunter. And you've got to have that attitude that
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: you can always be better. Yeah, And that's I think
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: wise so many of us love it so much is
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: because it's never you've never reached the finish line. There's
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: always more to figure out. Well, amen, Amen, I mean
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: I love challenges. I was you know, I'm that type
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: of person that, um, I don't. I don't get upset
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: as much as I I lick my chops and go, okay,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: you got me this time. Now I'm going to figure
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: out how you did it, and we'll see what happens
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: next time. You know, not lit your wounds, not feel
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: sorry for yourself, but keep your confidence level up and
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: just remember there's there's always the next time for you.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: But when a deer screws up, there isn't another next
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: time for him. You gotta make all the right choices.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: You You you talked about how so many of us
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: get to a point where we think we've got to
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: figure it out, and oftentimes deer hunting can be very
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: humbling when we're reminded frequently they don't have a figured out.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: But I'm curious. You know, you've been doing this so long,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: and you've been an authority for so long. UM, you've
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: put a lot out there. You've told a lot of people, Hey,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: this is a way to do it, or here's what
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I think about this or that. Um, over all those years,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: now when you look back, are there anything? Are there
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: anything that stand out as something that you've changed your
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: mind on? Like, Hey, you know what twenty years ago,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I said it was this way, but I guess what
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I realized I was wrong. I think it might be
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: now this way. Anything like that, Well you know along
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: those lines, Um, I will tell you that, and I'm
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: sure you'll agree with me on this. Um, if you've
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: hunted in length of time at all, if you've got
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: fifteen twenty years under your belt and actually got a
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: lot more than that in the hunting world, UM, you
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: know that. You know we've really evolved as hunters. But
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: but look what this, what's happened with with white tails,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: with mature white tailed box how they've evolved. So you know,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: things change with us, with our equipment, with technology, with everything,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: and we've accelerated our abilities to the point that you know,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: ten fifteen years ago, I was really really in fear
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: of becoming a um calculated and so not. I don't
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: want to say automatic, but it was gonna becomes um
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: substantially easier. And look what happened with the deer. The
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: sharper we got, the more educated we got, the more
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: technology we've we've involved into the sport, the keene of
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: the deer have become. I think that's much my honest opinion.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: So I think they are a prey animal, were predators.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Prey animals have been here forever. They've never all been
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: wiped out. So I think there's always that part of
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: it that gear will have something over on us. And
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: I can't tell you what it might be, you know,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: the next thing that gear used to evade hunters, or
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: how they're doing things, But it's what keeps us all
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: out there after them, because you know, people like us
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: love a challenge, and deer hunting is still a challenge,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: regardless of how sophisticated has become. Does it does it
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: ever frustrate you how sophistated has become or do you
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: do you do you like it? Or do you ever
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: feel nostalgic for the way it used to be. Well,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna sound like a drumpy old guy here, but
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: of course I'm a little you know, I'm I'm a
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: little concerned with with a lot of what's happened because
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: I honestly believe, and people can challenge me on this,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: but um, I still love killing big gear mature white tails.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: I love figuring them out. But when we had to
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: work five or six or eight or ten times harder
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: at doing that than we do now, then you know,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: you have to remember a lot of my formative years
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: when I became you know, when I acquired a name
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: and uh was established my credentials. There were no scouting cameras.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: There were you know, we had total maps and aerial
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: crop photos that we used. That was it. Otherwise it
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: was bootleadder and a lot of hours. So yeah, I
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: would readily admit I would I like to see it
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: back the way it was in some degrees. But Mark,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I'm kind of ate up with the
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: scouting cameras, and I like the Onyx maps, and I
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: like certain things. I like my I like my luxuries too,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: So I'm not I'm not going to be that grumpy
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: old guy. I guess there's a middle ground, right sort
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: of grumpy. UM. I wonder though, do you think do
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: you ever think that you might have um a special
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: advantage over some of the newer, younger hunters for someone
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: in your case who has that pre scouting camera, pre
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: on x pre technology background, but you also know how
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: and can use those new technologies um or maybe another
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: way to take this question would be, do you feel
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: like those who came later, those who are so dependent
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: now on trail cameras and our online maps and our
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: cell phone cameras and all that stuff, are we overly
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: dependent on that stuff and missing the boat on some
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: of those foundational things that you learned early on. Yeah,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I's back to the grumpy guy again. Yeah, I do,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: I really do. I agree with you. I think that
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: they're There was a certain aspect of coming together with
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: my hunting partners and walking all day and I mean
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: all day from daylight to dark, with a with a
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: total map folded up in your pocket and to stop
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: and a compass in your pocket and no cell phones
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: and starting cameras. But where I've really seen those skills
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: that I acquired a long time ago and honed. Where
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I really have seen that skill set shine is when
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: I started doing a lot of about the state hunts
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: where I might be at a spot for five to
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: six days and then it was time to move on
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: to the next spot or come home and then go
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: out again, where you had five or six days on.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: A lot of these were do it yourself hunts where
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: we got some property hunt we were showing the boundaries,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: and then it was you guys are on your own.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: You know, five or six days. You can have cameras,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: you can, you can have the technology, but you better
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: have You better be on those deer right out of
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: the gate. You don't have two or three days to
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: wait to see what shows up on the cameras. You
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's five to six days, find
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: a big deer and kill them. And I really excelled
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: at that, and um, you know, it was all documented
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: on film and for the most part it was a
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: lot of self scouting and uh so those old skills
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: came back to uh to bless me um from years
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: ago when I really became a road warrior, you know,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: during my the high ages of my filming career. Correct
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong here, but I'm guessing that a
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: lot of those early experiences helped you kind of form
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: this style of hunting that i've that I've seen you
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: referred to as as aggressive white tail hunting. You wrote
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: this book titled Aggressive white Tail Hunting, UM, and I've
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: talked a lot about these different tactics that kind of
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: fall underneath that UM type of white tail hunting that
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: you seem to have mastered. Can you can you define
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: that for me what you mean by aggressive white tail
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: hunting and why that this style is so important to
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: you and maybe it's not anymore. I don't know. That
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: was a long time ago that book came out, but UM,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on that? No, that was that
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: was a good connect here, because, um, what that book
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: was about is kind of what I'm talking about now.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Is the stuff that I that I reflected back on
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: that would serve me well on my out of state
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: hunts now this day and age. There's a lot of
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: this stuff I talked about in Aggressive white Tail Hunting.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Where back then, as I said, I was a full
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: time well we were seasonal here, so we get six
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: months maybe seven months of construction work and we're laid
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: off for four or five months out of the year.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: And that's back when nobody was doing scouting, nobody was
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: doing the season scouting. And we started doing that in
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: the middle late eighties and walking from like I said,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: all day walks, learning our hunting areas where we should
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: be the next year. Um. But a lot of that
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: stuff that we learned back then is exactly why I've
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: been able to rack up such an impressive success rate
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: on autist eight hunts with a very limited amount of
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: time mark. So, yeah, there's some throwback stuff from from
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: that book, especially that I feel strongly is is still
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: applicable today for people. So so if someone then was saying,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: how do I become an aggressive white tail hunter? Now, um,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: would you would you be able to outline a few
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: key things, like, all right, if you focus on A,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: B and C on which we can go really deep
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: into it want but if you learn to focus on
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: these three things or something like that, would there be
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: some way you could outline what this hunting style is
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: for someone? Well, the main thing I think that and
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: back then I was I was hunting the big woods
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: of northern Wisconsin, hundreds of thousands of acres of public land,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: and but it was it was huge blocks of cover.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: So we walked a lot, and the only way to
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: learn that country was to walk up. There weren't ava trails,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: there weren't even a TVs. There aren't four wheelers back then.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: It was just it was legwork and um but being aggressive.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: The one thing that I've learned about about white tailed deer,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: especially what I learned up in that big country in
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: northern Wisconsin and Minnesota, was there are hundreds of thousands
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: of acres out there that are available to the deer,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: but mature white tails, especially if they're undisturbed, they use
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: relatively small chunks of cover. You know, they don't they
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: don't use all of what's out there. They have their
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: home ranges and they're they're pretty much homebody. It was
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: the biggest thing was we figured out that, you know,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: it was a matter and this applies everywhere. It's a
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: matter just as much a matter of a limiting eliminating
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: bad country as it is finding good country. You know,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: it's that can be reinforced enough so that the stuff
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: you learned in the offseason when you're doing this aggressive scouting,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: and the good thing at that time of year, if
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: you can walk everywhere, anywhere, and you have to worry
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: about Man, I'm screwing this up from my future hunts.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Do you have months to forget about being bumped or
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: you know? But in the meantime you've learned a lot.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: And that's the one thing in talking with deer hunters,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm still doing some seminars that some of
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: these bigger deer shows and has kind of gone away.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Is especially in cases where there's more real estate than
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: just one square mile farming tracks or whatever. Is people
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: depending a little too much on technology i e. The
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: cameras or you know, those sorts of things and really
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: getting out there and how well do you really really
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: know your hunting area and be honest with yourself, do
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: you know every square inch? And postseason scouting, in my opinion,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: late where early winter scouting is time to do all
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: that when the deer seasons are closed, the deer back
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: in their core areas doing what they're gonna do um
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: later on. So so we're right about in that time
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: frame right now as we're talking late February early March
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: when this comes out. How does someone do that? Because
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: we talked about scouting a lot and there's certainly like
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: a scouting one on one where someone probably thinks, Okay,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna walk out there and walk around and
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: walk the edge of the fields and then look for
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: some bigger rubs and they're gonna call it good. How
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: do you take the next not just the next step,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: but the three more steps to to scout like a pro?
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: How do you scout like Greg Miller? What's what's going
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: on in your mind when you're out there? What are
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: you specifically doing that's different than your average smock on
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: the street. Well, this is going to sounds like kind
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: of a shameless plug. But the books not in printing more,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: but just leads right into my third book. You talked
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: about aggressive and proving white tail tactics. But I've got
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: a third book, rub Line Secrets, which actually was my
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: best selling book of all and um that book was
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: written from from added that I collected information, I collected
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: evidence I collected during the offsea where they are making
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: these rubs. Now everybody knows what a rub line is,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: you know, bucks rub along the routes say most prefer
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: to use when traveling between betting and feeding areas period.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: They always have preferred routes those routes with most rubs
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: on them are usually the ones they use most often.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: You can figure out at that time of year because
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: you go out in the spring, you start walking, like
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: you said, now until you know it starts to green up.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: You can walk every square inch. The other thing is
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: people seem to assume they know where the big deer
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: that they're hunting are betting. And I did that for years,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: and I found out it was a lot more to
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: my advantage, way way more to my advantage to figure
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: out pretty much exactly where they were betting. And even
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: in the off season, when you're walking and you're looking
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: at your hunting areas and you're going light, really can't
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: see a big buck betting here or here. When you
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: find those spots and you go, this looks like it's
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: about a big bucket lay as probably isn't. You might
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: even bump the deer out of there that time of year,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: but it's not going to harm anything. It's so far
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: ahead of the season. But I'll tell you a quick story, Mark,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: I was asked to do an article for bow Hunter
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: magazine recently. In fact, it just came out, and it
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: was about spring scouting, and I talked about attract the
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: land I had here that I had least, and I
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: had it for three years, and you know me, I
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: mean I assumed I knew every square inch of that
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: property after that three years. And not only that, but
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: I knew exactly what the deer were doing, where they
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: were betting, where they were traveling, where they were feeding.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: And I was in there the third year turkey hunting
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: in the spring and I found a big rub And
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: as I walk up on this big rub, I see
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: another one in the woods. And long story short, I
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: end up following this rub line from the bottom of
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: this steep wooded bluff all the way up to the top,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and up on top is a flat shelf. And I
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: can tell you right now, as soon as I get
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: up there, I went, this is a betting area. And
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: we had a couple of really good bucks on the
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: property at that time. There were a few boat downs
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: around the edge of this. In the middle it was
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: it was sign up open, and there were deer beds
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: and deer crap all over and there, and I thought,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: they're betting in here, and now there's got to be
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: where a couple of these big bucks are betten in
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: law you know, you know, fast forward to September that
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: year and I killed a hundred point that did exactly
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: what I figured you would do when I figured that
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: out in the spring, and my son and I have
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Jake was filmed, and when we went back in there
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: and the second day of archery season in September, I
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: killed him like second hunt of the year from what
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: I learned that spring. That's amazing when it works out
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, And it doesn't always work out that way.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: It's that's the other thing. I mean, people look at
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: my my successes and and they think, wow, this is unbelievable.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: They have no idea. Well some people do about the failures.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: And you know, you and I could talk about that
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: probably all day about there's gonna be more heartaches than
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: there are pleasurable moments. That's just the nature of the beast.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: That's the first thing that people, you know, especially when
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: they elevate their standards, they have to they have to
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: accept that you just ratcheted up a notch where you're
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: going to go after four or five and six year
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: old deer, hang on, because it's going to be a
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: heck of the ride. That is the truth. That's the truth.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: So we're gonna be a lot more downtimes than up times. Nature.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: You got to learn to love that, that process, that climb.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: If you don't enjoy that, then you're in trouble. Yeah,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: there's something to be said about getting frustrated, though I
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: mean that in a positive way because it just if
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: you're like me, like you, I'm assuming that just makes
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: you get your teeth and go, that's not going to
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: happen again, give me more, figure it out. Yes, yea.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: So let's talk a little with those rub lines, um,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: because it's funny. I feel like the the idea of
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: using rubs and really focusing on them has come in
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: and out of style within the hunting community over the
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: last two decades. There's been periods where it's been raved about,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: and then people go back the other way and say,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: I forget them focused on something else, and then they
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: come back in and then they kind of come in
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: and out. Um, right now, I if I foure to
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: put my finger on the pulse of the hunting community,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: there's a whole lot more interest and trendiness around betting
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: areas than focusing on transitions and rub lines and stuff.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: So let's let's zero in on the rub line thing,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: because maybe that's an area that we're not getting enough
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: attention on for a lot of newer hunters. Um, when
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: we're out there spring scouting and we come across a
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: big rub, how do you is this is the simple
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: next step? Simply find the next one and walk to that,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: and find the next one and walk to that. Or
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: what goes through your mind when you're starting, when you're
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: scouting and you're searching for rub lines? Um, what happens?
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: And what are you looking for? And how do you
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: go about effective least scouting rub lines in a way
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: that you could eventually use as a hunter. Yeah, that's
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: exactly what you're doing. Is is this a random rub? Um?
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Is this a rub that was maybe made during the rut?
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: This buck was here one time, ground the crap out
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: of this tree, marked it up and never came back.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Or is it is it part of an actual line?
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: And that's really what you need to determine as um.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: You know, usually a rub that's on a rub line
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: will also be alongside of pretty good trail and um,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: and you know how bucks can be doing, especially mature bucks,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: they're cross trailing, they're they're running while sometimes sometimes they're
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: on trails, sometimes they're just meandering through the woods, but
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: during non rough times, for the most part, they stick
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: to using trails. And you know, there's such a big
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: part of the archery season in almost every state in
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: the country that takes place during non rough times, which
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: means we're hunting. Here in Wisconsin, we're hunting September, October,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: and and then just umber again post rut. Three months
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: out of four months, we're hunting deer that are not running.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but I'm not going
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: to pin my hopes just on a you know, ten
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: to fourteen day window, twenty one day window in November.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: I want to be on the big deer right away.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: But the scouting thing, yeah, it's it's walking to see
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: if this is a random rub, if it's part of
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: the line. Every buck rubs difference. Some of them are
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: rubbed crazy, other ones rubbed once in a while. You know,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: those were tough ones to figure out back in the
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: old days. And getting back to something you said Mark
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: about the rub thing kind of comes and goes and
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: the importance of it. And I think that's in great
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: part due to scouting cameras because now they can just
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: find the rub and put up a camera and maybe
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: a scrape and they don't really have people don't have
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: to do much investigating, and that camera will probably tell
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: them if that's a spot they need to hunt or
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: if not. So they don't really think that the rubbed
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: really the rub. One rub they put the camera over,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: but they don't really know their significance of rub line.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: So I think it's kind of gone going out of style,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: out of fashion simply because people don't consider it to
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: be that important because of what they can learn with
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: their scouting cameras. And that's it's actually true. It really is.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like you're miss out or anything? Though? Um?
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Is there is there some added benefit to taking it
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: that next step? Oh? Absolutely? You know. It goes back
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: to what I was talking about earlier about you know,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: the use of scouting cameras especially is kind of um
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: made hunters a little less aggressive, a little less active. UM.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Just talking to the editor of North American White Tail
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: about this a few days ago about um, you know,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: and if if four cameras don't show you what you
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: want to see, then put all four more. And we
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: talked about how harmful that's become two hunters. Chances when
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: especially early season one gear on top of their game,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: or during the October low when big bucks are really
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: you know, reclusive and and and shy and and and suspicious.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: The more times you're going and out, whether you're just scouting,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: checking cameras or whatever you're doing, the more harm you're doing,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: because the human sense is human sense. But so that's
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: why I think it's it's kind of in their best interests.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: And you can do this during the off season at
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: least figure out some of the preferred routes that bucks
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: for using the year before, because they'll use them again,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: and then the next generation of bucks will use them
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: and so on. And it's we've proven that a lot
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: of people have. You know, you get a good spot
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: of good spots, a good spot, you'll kill big deer
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: out of it, maybe fairly consistently, because it's just the
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: nature of big deer to want to gravitate to the
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: same spots that the deer before them did. It's just
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: there there for a reason. Yes, So what about this
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: alderdage that big rubs mean big buck? Have you found
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: that to be true or false? Very true? For the
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: most part if they're not if they're not big in
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: the Antler department, because I killed I've killed a bunch
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: of big woods deer that because of the lack of agriculture,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: but because of the lack of very much nutrition. These
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: are deer that were two hundred pounds field dressed plus
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: up to two hundred and twenty some pounds, you know,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: our four and five year old deer. And they were
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: one thirty maybe one. You know, they were just so
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: so in the antler department. But those deer about them
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: big trees, and they didn't have not all of that
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: giant raction. I killed some. I got a two typical
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: I killed hearing of stonsrom during late season years ago.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: That that deer when he'd show up on our farm
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: and he wasn't there very often, he'd come and go um.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: He'd rum on trees almost as big as you know,
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: I mean talking almost as big as he's my lower leg,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: my calf, I mean up into my fire, giant pople
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: trees he'd rub on when where he came on that
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: he was just wearing. He grew up on those trees,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: you're dear. We also with the advent of scouting cameras.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: Now we've been able to document that little bucks will
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: rub on big trees, big bucks will rub on little trees.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: But for the most part, if you find those big,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: gagger sized rubs we all like to find, it's a
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: it's a pretty safe bet that that's a really good dear.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: As you were as you're talking about those big rubs
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: that you're finding the big woods, it just brought a
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: question to mind for me, which is, do you find
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: there's certain habitat types where rub lines are more important.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if, for example, in pretty open country like Kansas,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: maybe there's not a whole lot of cover, so your
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: travel corridors are pretty obvious they have they're going to
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: most likely want to follow these little fence rows and
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: things like that. While in a big wood situation where
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: it's all this homogeneous, big open timber, it's I've hunted
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff too up in northern Michigan,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: and a lot of times I'm just at a loss
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: for trying to fare out how these deer are traveling
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: through an area. But is it in a snare like
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: that where rub lines are especially important, you you hunted
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: if you hunt it up there you hunted country that
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: was fairly similar to what I used to hunt in
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: northern Wisconsin. And yeah, there were some there were some
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: aspects of dear behavior or travel patterns that we had on. Um.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: They love walking swamp edges where they're they're on the
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: there on the dry ground, there on the high ground,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: but they're like one or two jumped away from those
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: those six thick camarat willow swamps um because big dear
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: like that sense of security. If they were threatened, they
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: got to one or two bounds and they're in the
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: thick stuff. Those were hot spots. We also found that
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: just riffed bottoms um sometimes along the sides of the hills.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Very seldom did those gear big gear especially did we
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: find where they were walking right down on the top
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: of the ridge. If they were, it was probably a
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: nocturnal travel route. They just seem to want to be
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: where they could be closer to thick cover. And um,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: you know, the older the deer get, the more the
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: more secure they want to feel. So there are some
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: things to look for. We find, you know, two or
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: three year old slashes, you know, where they come in
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: and they log off an area and just clear cut
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: it and then it comes back in that thick regrowth
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: after about the fourth or fifth year. Words. You know,
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: it's like the hair and a dog, it's so thick.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: But deer would walk the edges of those things too.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: They want to be on a little more open side
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: where they can see and use their eyes for travel.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: But there are only one bound away from being able
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: to jump back into that slash. And there was a
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: lot of logging going on up there well towards the
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: end of my big woods hunting career, but we learned
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: to use it to our advantage because the deer would
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: be in there to feed, and then it would eventually
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: get to a point where we're also service cover and food.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: And they were hunting hotspots those slashes when they were
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: about four or five years old. And would you hunt
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: those kinds of spots right inside of them, or would
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: you hunt the downward edge during the rut and try
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: to catch bucks curves in that edge? Or what was
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: what was the right way typically to hunt in well,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: you know, back then we were tree stand hunters. Occasionally
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: would build a ground blind, but there were no pop
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: up blind so we were doing just exactly what we
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: said we'd we'd hunt those those edges a lot, whether
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: it was a swamp edge or a slash edge. And uh,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: I think guys the time drew near do fairly aggressive
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: amount of calling, you know, out into the slash or
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: swamp to try and get them just get out in
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: the you know, in the area where we could get
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: a shot at it. I'm talking mostly bow hunting now.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: But we didn't employ some of that stuff for gun
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: season two because we can have gun gun again in
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: our tree tag here in Wisconsin. UM, so we're blessed
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: that way we can we can shoot two bucks a
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: year here. Um. Back on the back on the rub thing,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: you you talked about how how these days a lot
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: of people will see a rub or scrape and just
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: throw a trail camera, um and never kind of take
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: it to that next step. Do you now have do
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: you have a way that you that you use trail
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: cameras in conjunction with rub lines, like, is there is
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: there a best way to do both? Um? I'm curious
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: just because I personally use a lot of trail cameras
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: on scrapes, but I do not often factor rub lines
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: into where I'm setting my trail cameras. Maybe that's a
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: missed opportunity. Um, do you have any thoughts on on
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: using that unless you have a clear I mean putting
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: them over scrapes is Listen, those are like the communications
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: centers for all the bucks within a given core area,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: not just the buck. You know that, I mean you
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: might get You're gonna get pictures of numerous bucks work
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: in the same scrape. It's just the way it is.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: But then you have to figure out now and you
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: don't get a picture of a book like you'd like
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: to get, So you have to start wondering, especially if
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: you know there's a big deer lyyrit Is this not
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: a thought he's comfortable visiting? Is there a reason he's
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: not coming to this scrape? But other than you know,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: than a big track on a scrape, that's pretty much guesswork.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: But when you when you're just scouting and take the
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: cameras out of the equation and you're just looking at sign,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: I would rather trust unless there's a track in a
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: scrape that you take one look at it and go,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: this is a giant deer. This is a giant deer.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I would rather trust to you know, scouting and sign
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: interpretation to big rubs than scrapes. That's not to say
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: I don't hunt over scrapes. I'm like you, I I
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: do both, but um, the rub thing gets it's curious
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: to note that. Um, you know, I still do it
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: a lot. I put him I kind of trash scouting cameras,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: but I'm very dependent on him to be honest, like
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: like we all are. And I'll put him up and
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: I'll put up you know. I think one time here
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: I might have six to eight to ten out um.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: And what I'm trying to figure out is what the
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: deer are doing at certain times. You know, rubs are
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: definitive there their value, bits of sign but you have
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: to figure out that, Like you said, is this part
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: of the line or is this just a random rubs?
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: It depends on the time of year. But um, I
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: think I'd rather based most of my hunting efforts around rubs,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: big rubs than than than scrapes. Scrapes are a good
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: indicator of buck presence, um, don't get me wrong. And
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: that's a good place for people to start trying to
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: get a census of what's going on in their hunting areas.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Usually you'll start finding scrapes before you start finding quantities
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: of rubs. I think you'll agree with that, especially the
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: more bucks there are with within a given core area
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: and more the more competitive they are, the more competition
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: there is, there's going to be more bucks signed, even
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: in September, even especially in October. Now you talked about
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: how how scrapes are communication hubs. What about signpost rubs?
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I've seen you write about signpost rubs. How do those
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: differ from just a regular random rub in? And when
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: you find one of these signpost rubs, you know, what
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: does that? How does that mean something different to you?
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Or how do you act differently after finding that? Well,
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: you know, if you watch a big buck make a scrape,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: and I've had the opportunity to, you know, to do
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: that many times. The first thing they do usually when
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: they walk up to especially a rub that's already opened,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: as they'll smell it and then they'll usually lick it.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: So now they've smelled it to see who's done there,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: they market with their saliva. Then they start rubbing it.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: And if you watch them as they're rubbing, they'll spend
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: almost as much time rubbing their forehead. Their pseudoefers land
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: on their in their forehead, um, not the sudo reefers land. Yeah. Um. Anyway,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: they'll spend almost as much time on the rub as
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: they do their antlers, because that's the clear indication of
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: who they are. That's how they mark these things, you know,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: so that when they walk away after it, on it.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: And people will tell you years and years ago when
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: we first started we started doing the rub line thing,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: we'd always find hair and these rubs in the bark
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: and bettered in the bark, and we were like, I
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: wonder what that's about. Well, eventually I got to know
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Lordy Woodington from North American White Tale and James Croll,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: of course Games is a very good friend of mine,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: and they explained to me the whole process of that
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: and why there was there was hair. It was from
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: the deer's forehead, just from their head. But they grind
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: that bland into the bark to scent market. So there's
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: a lot more goes on with rubs than I think
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: even now with everything that's out there, all the information
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: that people understand, that's only one aspect of everything we're
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: talking about. Two. There's a lot more to this than
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: just rubs and rub lines. It's it's definitely fascinating though,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: because it's one of those most visual things. You know,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: when you go into the woods. There are a few
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: things that can get your adrenaline pumping more than coming
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: across a big fresh rub actually seeing a deer, other
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: than seeing a deer. That big fresh rub is about
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: as visual, visually stimulating as you can get out there.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: And that's exactly what got me so interested in him.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: You know, years and years a lot of the very
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: first article I wrote for North American White Tail, and
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: I wrote it and it appeared in seven issue was
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: on rubs, using rubs and rub lines for killing proof
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: your deer, And up to that point, I don't recall
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: ever seeing a strategy article that relied entirely on using
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: rubs and rub lines as a way to ambush Big Bucks.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not just I'm just bringing that up because there
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: was a lot of stuff that was misunderstood about him.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: I think prior to that that we had done personal
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: research about and had had the results to back it up. Um,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: And so that's why I just goga. I've still gotga
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: about rubs. And there's there's nothing, like you said, walk
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: like walking through the woods and come up ahead and
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: seeing a big tree, just all scarfed up, that big
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: orange slash. Yeah, you can't wait to get there. You
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: almost find yourself running towards it. What about this? You know?
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: These days, I don't know, the last maybe ten years
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: or so, it's become quite popular to use and to
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: create mock scrapes. UM. A few people I've I've seen
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: a few folks here and there make mock rubs. Have
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: you ever done that, looked into that? Consider that as
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: something that could be a useful tool, absolutely, because they
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: relate to them almost as much visually they see those
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: things too. You know, do you have excellent vision other
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: than maybe not seeing you know, color scheme that we see.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: But they have very keen eyes, and bucks are incositive
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: if they're if they're not pressured, if they're just being themselves,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: and if I'm not mistaken, there's some isn't there some
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: scent companies that are making the forehead land? I think
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, so it's feasible. I mean, I
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: think it's I think it's I mean, I love my
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: personally loved um making mock scrapes and doing that, and
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: I've made mock rubs and they're just something pretty cool
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: about doing something yourself and you say, this is where
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: I want to do big deer to appear. I want
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: a big deer. Just doing something like that and having
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: a big deer respond to it. I think it's cool.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like Colling Kyle's, you know, where you
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: can fool them to the point where you can kill him. Yeah,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: it's Colin and turkeys grunting and the buck pugle in elk.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Any way that you can proactively fool an animal into
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: falling your trap is is pretty satisfying. Yeah. Yeah, so
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: I do it every year. I I I've always beenked
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: around with it with the mock scrapes, and yeah, I
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: just get response. You know. It's just a matter of
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: what what animals are responding. And I've had some that,
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: you know, I've got scouting camera pictures. There's some incredible
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: bucks that I never ended up killing. But it's so
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: cool to look at those pictures and go, I made
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: that scrape and look what I got here. You know, So,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: what's the scenario when you would do the mock rub
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: what like would you would it be similar to why
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: you make a mock scrape. You want to buck to
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: maybe stop there for an extra second so you can
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: get a shot, or to stop in front of trail camera.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Is that that kind of utility or do you use
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: them in a different way. The thing with the mocks
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: mocks scrapes is then after he works it, after a
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: buck finds your scrape, then he works it, and then
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: you rework it again and add a little more scent,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: and then he comes back and you know he's figured
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: out I'm going to keep coming back here because I
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: want to meet this guy that's monkey in my scrape.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: And same with rubs. I think you create them. It's
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: partly to try and get a deer to start rubbing
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: on it too. But the next time he comes through
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: that area, I can almost assure you he's going to
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: visit that rub again. They just have to. That's the
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: nature of the beast with them. They they're so big
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: on you know, sent based communications and visual communication communications
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: with like the rubs, and trying to find out who
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: else is in the area. Um, there's probably a lot
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: more of that goes on the natural confrontations where they're
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: just constantly smelling and finding out who's going where and
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: who's doing what. So UM, I've never actually shot one
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: off the mox scrape, but I'm sure had him respond
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: to them. Do you think that this is the kind
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: of the kind of idea that might help in let
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: me let me say it's different way. I've got a scenario,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people probably have a
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: scenario somewhat like this where they hunt a small property
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: and for one reason or another, the deer are typically
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: on the neighbors and they only come over into their side.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: You know, let's say one out of six times, and
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: you can't improve the habitat because you don't own it,
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: so you can't plant food plots, you can't make some
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: big change to the habitat, so you're stuck trying to
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: just hope that that buck is going to come across
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: your way. Would this be one of those things you
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: could do to proactively try to get him to come
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: to your side a little bit more by getting kind
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: of aggressive with creating mock scrapes and mock rubs on
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: your side. And of course you've got to be careful
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: to not overpressure it by doing that. But let's say
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: you can do it in a smart way and create
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: this false sense of competition that then encourages this dear
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: to come check out your neck of the woods more often?
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: Is that? Is that a reasonable way to use this? Yeah?
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: And it's and you've probably done it, and I've done it,
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: and I've had you know, so so successful it it's
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: excuse me, it's it's um. It's sometimes can be really
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: hard to lure a deer off adjoining property or off
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: property you don't have permission on onto your property. You know.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: It kind of goes back to what I was saying
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: earlier in the podcast about do you know where they
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: want to be? They they're living because they really feel
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: comfortable there. Um. But I would say along those same lines, though,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: if you can get him to come over and investigate
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: just one time, I have a I have a very
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: strong feeling that he's going to come over to investigate again,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: whereas he may not have done it had you not
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: had that mock scrape there or that mock rub, you
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's it doesn't hurt anything As
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: far as the effectiveness of it, I haven't had great
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: You know, deer are where they are because they want
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: to be there, and other than rut, good luck trying
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: to get him to leave that safe environment where they
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: feel safe and you know, jump defense and come over
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: onto your environment. But it doesn't hurt the same focus
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: doesn't hurt anything. To do it, I want to I
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: want to rewind. Um, I want to go back to
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: something we started talking about earlier, kind of pivot off
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: of the rubs and back to this idea of the
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: aggressive white tail hunting, because I think that this, this
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: idea we just talked about might be considered something aggressive
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: because your proactively doing something to try to, you know,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: change the future behavior of a dear. Um, you wrote
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: this book Aggressive Whitetail Hunting, and that was I don't know,
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: twenty years ago something like that. Um, it's more than that. Okay,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: So do you think that since that point, as technology
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: has changed, as you've changed, as you've hunted more and
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: more and seen more and more situations, have you become
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: more aggressive or more conservative as a hunter? What's your
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: trajectory been. That's a real good question. It depends on
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: the situation, you know, as I was talking about earlier.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: If I'm out of state and I've only got five
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: or six or maybe even seven days to get something done,
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna be the same old aggressive Greg Miller. But
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it. It's safely aggressive or are you know,
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: it's you've only got so much time. You can't be
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: doing stupid things like walking for any place you think
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: a big deer might be bettered. But you've always got
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: to be out there doing something, you know. We've got
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: two places we hunt early season, western South Dakota and
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: northwest North Dakota, and we do those hunts back to back.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Then we do our own thing beginning to end. We
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: got six days in South Dakota and we've got seven
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: days in North Dakota. And there's not much time where
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: we're sitting around, you know, shooting a breeze. We're out
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: and about doing something. Um. If it's just walking and exploring, um,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: and while we're hunting glassing, you know, because the country
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: leads itself well to do that. But we're always doing something.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: We'll take a short break for lunch maybe in the
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: middle of the day, you know, but mornings and evenings
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: and afternoons we're doing something. Um. If it's moving cameras,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: checking cameras, it's uh uh scouting. You know what still
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: is there's a lot of lands seven dollars acre ranch
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: we hunting in North Dakota. We've hunted quite some time.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: I'm I've still never been on every bit of it,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: so there's always something to do. So yeah, I mean
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: around here, if I'm hunting here, um, I may not
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: be quite as aggressive, but that's because I've got these
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: dear kind of figured out mark, you know what I mean.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: I know where I should be and when I should
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: be there, and I know where I shouldn't go. And
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: you know that might change during the season when deer
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: start doing different things though too, But I've got that
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: all figured out. But when I when I'm a road warrior,
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be a lot more aggressive than than
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: I than I am here quite honestly. Yeah, I feel
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: like that is one of the important steps as a
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: deer hunter you have to take. When you eventually get
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: to a point and it's you never get there completely.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: I think it's a it's a hill you're constantly walking up, um.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: But but trying to be at a place where you
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: know the right times to be aggressive and the right
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: times to not be um. It seems like that's a
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: really a fine line you have to walk as a
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: deer hunter, because when it's time to strike or when
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: it's time to get aggressive. If you if you don't,
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: you miss your opportunities. If you do at the wrong times,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: you blow it out, you screw it up. Um. It's
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: a real tricky balance you have to walk for for
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: someone who's relatively new, who doesn't have years and years
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: of the mistakes and the lessons learned. Are there any
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: kind of guidelines you can give us as to Hey,
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: this kind of situation is go for it, This is
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: go time, versus this is hang back and be a
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: little more careful. Um. I know that's pretty broad, but
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: are there a few examples you can provide, folks that
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: might help illustrate that. Yeah, it is. It is a
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: broad stroke. It's it's um during the early season night
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: and and you know, like the October long and books
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: they just go underground. But boy, they have they're sharp,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: they're not being distracted by hot doors or they're not
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: rubbing much, they're not scraping much. I'd say better here
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: on the safe side for the season. You know, because
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: of the the foliage and everything in the woods are
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: so much stickered. That's a tough one to call too,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: because you really but you might get away with more.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: You might be able to jump at that time of
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: year where you'll hear him or you jumped him, you
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: busted him, but he's not gonna leave the area. That's
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: one thing good about early season. They're just such homers.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Then it would take quite a bit, I think, to
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: really push your out. But I think during the the
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: late pre rut, in the rut, I think people should
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: just be if your gut tells you to do something.
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: I really trust my gun, and I think most good hunters,
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: most people that spend quite a bit of time in
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: the woods are more than average amount of time in
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: the woods, have got that sixth cents where they know
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: when they should be out there, They know when they
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: should walk certain places, and they know when they should
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: back out and just maybe leave things alone. I think
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: it really does come down to that, if you feel
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: like you're maybe pressuring an area too much, I will
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: almost certainly guarantee you that you're pressuring that area too
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: much if it becomes a suspicion in your mind right
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: because we're probably always a little bit biased in our
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: favor too, So if you get to the point where
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: you're starting to think maybe you're doing it, you probably
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: were over pressuring it a week a week earlier because
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: you want to give yourself a break. That's very well put.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: That's that's very well could be the case. And I've
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: written that almost word for word. If you feel like
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: you're pressuring an area too much, you have been more
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: than likely have been. Yeah, so so are you. I'm
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: not sure if you are aware of this UM kind
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: of trendy type of hunting or not right now, but
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: there's a there's a growing collection of hunters who are
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: really into getting very aggressive with their hunting in October,
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: in particular around the October lull, by finding buck beds
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: and buck betting areas and getting in really tight to
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: them with pretty mobile hunting tactics. UM. So kind of
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: doing the reverse of what you were talking about. There
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: you are? You? Are you? What are your thoughts on that? UM?
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: It's it's something that's pretty high risk, high reward. And
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's something you've considered or tried
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: or done it and screwed up enough that now you
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: don't do it? Um? Any thoughts on on that tactic?
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: That idea? I H it's one of those been there,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: done that I actually have and I in a way,
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: I feel kind of not bad about it, but it was.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: It was at a time when I was writing, just
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: be careful, don't do this, don't do that. I had
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: a big deer that I just like I could kill
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: an early season, and I was so confident that I
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: knew exactly where he was betting. This was in. This
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: was in northern Wisconsin and the willerness, and I got
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: in so tight on that beer that I actually heard
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: him stand up and shake, you know when they stand
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: up and they shake themselves, And I thought, what was
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: that noise? And like three or four seconds later, I
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: saw some movement and he's just standing that he was
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: in some thick stuff. But I made out an eye
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: and then an antler that actually heard that deer because
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: he shook again then, and I like, that's what I heard.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: That's how close I I didn't kill him, but um
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: only because he took the wrong runway, if you know
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: what I mean. It was the right runway for him,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: the wrong runway for me. But so I think it's
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: one thing about doing that that time of year. It's
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: you know, some people might think it's a little controversial
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: that you should never try and get in close to
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: those deer tight on him, like like we were talking about.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: But other than doing that, I I don't know how
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: you kill him, and it's probably worth it. And I
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: that time of year, if you bust them out, I
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: don't think they're going to leave the county, you know,
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: I don't think they're gonna They're probably gonna run a
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: little ways because it is so thick. You've got that
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: going for you, and then just probably forget about it
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: as long as you back out and get them time
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: to forget about it, don't go right back in there.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: So so you're saying that it is something that if
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: you're willing to swing for the fences that you think
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: it's it's not a bad idea, if you're willing to
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: take that risk. I don't, but I would, I would
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: on the right on the heels of that, I would.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: I would say that people should have a real thorough
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: understanding of their hunting area exactly how it lays um
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: um the you know, people that are very familiar with
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: their hunting areas probably stand a better chance because they
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: know what their deer are doing at just about every
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: time you know, during the year um, summer, spring, fall, winter.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Those people have more of an advantage because I think
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: pretty much, you know, they've hunted the same tract of
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: property for however long, Um, they would stand a better
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: chance of of killing a deer in that situation than
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: people that are just kind of doing it by guesswork.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: And quite honestly, Mark, I think you'll agree, there's a
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: lot more people that are are that knowledgeable about their
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: hunting areas now in the West twenty or twenty five
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: years ago. You know, it's become an obsession with him.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: It's a good obsession. Yeah, certainly are a lot of
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: worse things. I like to tell my wife very very much.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, Um, really a really random little aside here,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: but it is related to hunting in October. Um. I
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: read somewhere once. This might have been in a recent
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: article that you have really keyed in on freshly fallen
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: maple leaves? Can you talk about that? Is that something
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: that we should be paying more attention to? Is is
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: something to hunt around for small parts of the year. Well,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you it's it's I wrote that piece years ago.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: I think I rewrote it. Yeah, I rewrote I didn't
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: rewrite it. I used that analogy against um for an
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: article for North American white Tail this last year, and
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: we have a lot of the area I used to
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: hunt in northern the stocks and even around here in
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: the farm all. We have a fair number of maple
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: trees at a lot of maple actually, But it's one
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: of those things when they're falling, you better be out
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: there hunting and maples lose their leaves rather quickly, and
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: the sugar content in those leaves is what drives with you.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: I talked to James Crawl about and he said they're
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: high and sugar, so it's an energy source for him.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a delectrical food, but it's not
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: a main food, as I wrote in that article. It's
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: it's one of those what they call them ice cream foods,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: I guess they call it. But they where they're gonna
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: eat them. Every time they passed through that area, they're
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: going to go right to those trees that are dropping
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: their leaves and they're gonna they're gonna garbage up on them.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: Do you think they'll go out of their way to
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: hit it? Like, Oh, for sure, for sure. I've seen
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: dear suddenly appearing for years when this was going on,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: and we find this hot sign in these certain areas.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: They say they as well. We didn't know at the
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: time that hot sign was three or four days old
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: and it was already over. They had been doing this
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: probably for a week. By time we found it, it
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: was over. But we hung stands. Not only didn't we
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: see any big bucks, didn't see deer. They just come
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: in there for tell those once they hit the ground,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: those leaves that lay there for a while lose the
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: sugar content and then they're not delectable anymore. But boy,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: when they're as they're falling, literally as they're falling, I
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: strongly urge people to check that out. If you've got
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: known areas of maple stands in the in the woods
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: you hunt. It's it's one thing that, like you said,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: you've never really heard it before, but it's it's a fact. Yeah.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: I like that idea of it seems whenever you can
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: find a food source that is that's limited, that's there
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: for a very short time period, you get this disproportionately
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: high rate of deer use because they know it's there
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: for just a little bit of time. It's it's like
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: when the ice cream truck shows up, you know it's
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: going to be there for thirty seconds, So every damn
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: kid comes running in because they know that's the only
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: chance to get it. That's a good analogy. I mean,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: it's it's kind of the same thing, you know. It's
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: it's a timing factor. Tell me, those kids don't know
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: when that ice cream truck is coming, and they know
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: they got it time, just like the deer there in
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: their element. They know exactly when those maple leaves are
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: gonna fall. You know exactly when the eightcorns are gonna
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: start dropping. So it's just the timing thing. And that's
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: that's one of those things too that I learned on
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: my own pretty much a long time ago about the
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: maple leaves, and it was it was a bit accidental,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: but you know, I never forgot it. Yeah, yeah, those things.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: I think that's another thing that seems to separate your
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: average deer hunter or hunter of any kind, but in
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: this case deer hunter. Um separate them from from someone
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: who's able to really really be successful is noticing those things.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: The fact that you noticed that you keep you asked yourself,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: why did something happen or why did I see these deer?
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: What were they doing here that you noticed? That was
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: what they're feeding on, and then you stored that away
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: in your mind for the future. I don't think that's
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: as common across a lot of people. I know that
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: I've had almost proactively forced myself to be more pro
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: I have to like remind myself all the time to
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: pay attention to everything and then ask questions about everything,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: and then think back on it again to make sure
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: I'm learning from that and taking action on it. Um.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: That seems to be like the process, at least that
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: I figured out. That seems to be the process of
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: getting better is really observing, thinking, and then acting. Um.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: Are there are there any other examples from your years
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: of hunting that you can think of where you have
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: like an aha moment in the woods where you have
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: when of these observations or watch something happen and we're
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: always like, oh wow, that that's why this happens, or
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: oh wow, I need to change what I'm doing now
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: because of this. Have there been any other kind of
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: epiphanies like that for you over the years, Well, I
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: mean there's been there's been stuff like that. To be
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: specific about you know, it came from a lot of
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: years and just finally paying attention to dear and when
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: those and funds and small bucks will come by, not going, God, damn,
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: where's the big gear. I'd watch spose deer. I wanted
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: to know everything they were eating, why they were there,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: where they were going, how they were acting, which trails
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: they were using, even though they weren't target animals. But
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: back to the maple leaves real quick. I remember my
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: brother Mike, my older Mike, when I hit on that
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: pattern and killed a couple pretty good bucks doing it,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: He said, how do you ever figure that out? And
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: it goes right to what I just said. I said, well,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: every time I'd see those deer come through there for
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: the last few years, at the same time every year,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: they were always there, and then those maple leaves, And
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: then I told him about you know, finding maple trees
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: after that and setting up on him. And it was
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: already too because there was a lot of bucks signing,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: a lot of deer signing around him, and it was
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: already too late. They weren't eating him anymore. So I said,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: I figured out the best time to be there hunting
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: those deer was when the leaves were dropping. Um, I'm
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: sure there have been some instances where I've seen deer
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: do something or you know, it's always been my goal
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: once I once I decided that this is what I
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: want to do. I want to be a very successful
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: big buck hunter. Back in the day and age when
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: it wasn't cool, you know, the North American Whitehall think
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: was in its infancy, the magazine and so let's start
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: drawing a little more attention to the sport. But um,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: there were things I learned along the way. Mushrooms I killed.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: I killed a really good buck in northern Wisconsin one
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: year that you know, there's a certain ridge that I hunt.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of down logs, and the deer when
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: they're eating the mushrooms off those locks. But the University
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: of Wisconsin to put all this in perspective about different foods,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: and certainly not all these foods are preferred. But the
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: University of Wisconsin did a study years ago on white
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: tailed deer in our home state here, and they documented
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: deer eating like close to three or three d and
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: thirty different items while they were observing. Now, so now
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: you put that in perspective of what we think we
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: know about what deer like to eat. Yeah, corn, soybeans,
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: you know, alf elfa, acorns, brows. We're still a long
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: ways from three, you know. So there's some of those
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: foods they may just pick and you know, at and
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: they eat it, but they documented it. But it does
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: put it in perspective that it goes far beyond what
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: we consider to be the normal foods are primary foods
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: for white tails, I think, and and so much of
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: that is seasonal, like the maple. There's there's are other
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: things that you know, like certain brows, certain leaves, But
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: if you watch a deer walk through the woods, they're
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: always nibbling on something, and I just pay attention to
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: what they're nibbling on. Usually, Yeah, you know, what they're
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: eating is so important in the early season and a
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: lot during October, and a lot in the late season
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: in December. But if there's any time in a year
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: maybe where it's not quite as important, it's probably that
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: pre rut and rut time period. Um. And tell me
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: if you think differently, but I think on average is
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: a little less important least at that time of year. Um.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: Kind of falling back on that theme of your aggressive
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: mantra or your aggressive approach to hunting, once we get
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: to that time period, we're past the October law, we're
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: into the pre rut. In the rut, that's when most
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: people get aggressive. Um yeah, what does getting aggressive at
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: that time look like for you? Well, what what are
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: the bucks doing that time of year? They're kind of
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: nosing around? What are the doors doing? Food? Yeah, it's
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: it's yeah, there are some places that you know, you
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: get these cruising bucks, you get you can have areas
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: that during the rut, when the bucks are cruising, their
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: certain areas they use year after year, generation after generation
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: that are just absolute cruising spots. But food still plays
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: a very important role in the rut, but only because
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: then you're you're actually hunting mannerists here, which I hate.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: I think we all do, because you know, we get
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: picked off way more by dolls and funds and small
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: bucks than we do mature bucks. Let's be honest, and
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you know, and more big bucks have
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: been saved by dos than we care to talk about
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: or even think about it. I can think of dozens
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: that have you know, survived just on my behalf because
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: of a nosy or suspicious doll. But it's still a
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: food thing. It's just that the bucks are I think
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: the mature bucks are changing the way they're relating to
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: their surroundings, you know, to get to where the doors are.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: And during the rut especially, you know, they'll just they'll
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: come into a feeding area and maybe they'll just circle
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: to the downland side. They're not interested in meeting. They'll
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: just circle to the downland side, snout then deer that
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: are there, and go, nothing interesting here, I'm gonna move on.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: And we've all see that, you know, when they're cruising,
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: walk walk, walk, stops the the ground, sniff the air, walk,
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: walk walk over and over again. They're just cruising. They're
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: not interested needing. They're just interested in one thing and
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: they know where to go to find that thing. The
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: pretty standard approach if I had oversimplify what the you know,
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: hundreds of different deer hunters I've talked to say, if
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: I could just boil it down to the simplest of things,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: you would say, maybe on average, most guys or girls
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: during the rut are hunting either downwind of betting years
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: or food sources or some kind of pinch point during
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: the rut, and you kind of lump of all hunting
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: tactics at that time of year into one of those buckets.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: Do you do anything different than that? Is there anything
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: outside of that that you think about or or add
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: to the recipe during the rut when you're getting aggressive
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: with it? Um. One thing we haven't discussed as I
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: I huddle over a decloy a lot. I feelt some
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: of my best deer over decloys, and you know, I,
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: if there's a way to put a decoy in the mix,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: I'm going to do it. But you know it's you.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: It ain't broke, don't fix it. The two the two
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: strategies you mentioned mark there, they're just so proven and
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: there's and they're so effective. And you know, I also
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: show in some calling, you know if there's a time
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: when rattling and grunning can be employed, And yeah, you
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: can do it too much, but it's also going to
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: provide you with chances. Eventually, it's going to provide you
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: with chances or a chance you wouldn't have had you
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: not used it. Same with the decoy. UM. You know,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: I pulled hot hot bucks away from hot doors or
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: a decoy no way, shape or form would come over
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: and committed suicide had I not had that phony deer
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: out there walked right away from I didn't come far,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: but they were out of bowl range initially, and they
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: came over to challenge this guy that didn't want seem
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: to want to acknowledge him. You know, the decoys just
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: standing there, and it seems to really irritate those bucks
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: that it's not responding in any way. It's not doing
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: the head bob, it's not turning its head. It's the
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: less it moves it more. It seems to make them mad.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: So um, but yeah, random calling during the rut, in
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: the in the uh, pinge points and do fan areas
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: any place that analysts you are using you know, feeding areas, uh.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: The edges of betting areas all good. Those are the
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: go tools. I think they have been for a long time.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: I think they will continue to be. I guess a
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: lot of it comes down to executing on that though,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: because most people know what you're supposed to do at
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: that time of the year. Probably the harder thing is
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: is getting small details right, so knowing exactly where to
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: the right spot on the downward edges to set up
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: and then pulling it off, spending the time getting up
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: on time being out there, not creaking the tree stand
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: at the last moment. Those little things probably are what
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: separate the way from the chef. Yeah, you know, there's
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: we talked strategy, and we talked you know, game plan
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: and all that. But there's something to be said for
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: exposure just being out there, especially that time of year
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: when the bucks are doing it. Um. You know the
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: old saying you can't kill them if you aren't out there,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: and that's so true, and yet people just well some
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: it's gotten better. People know they need to be out
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: there now, but um, it's just so true. You know,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: I can't stress enough that we get that that little window.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: Fortunately I get kind of a broader window because I'll
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: probably do in two or three different states and maybe
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: a Canadian province during the month in November, and you know,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: the ruts going strong the very last days in November,
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: like South Dakota. This past year, I killed a good
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: buck over the decoy and I think it's November and
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: that deer was the rut was just going crazy. And
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: the week before I killed a giant uh deer in
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: Saskatchewan and the rut was just starting. It was really
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: going up there. So you know, I get that luxury
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: of hunting different geographic locations, um, and getting a whole
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: almost a full month of rut hunting. Um. But there's
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: nothing like exposure during that month. I'm going to be
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: in a tree somewhere, We're gonna ground blind somewhere. That's
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: the whole key to this kind of along those lines,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: that's usually one of the things that's easier said than done.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: Though for a lot of people, especially if they're just
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: getting into it, they hear, oh, yeah, I should take
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: my vacation during that time period and i sit out
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: there all day every day, and I'm gonna, you know,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: put in twelve straight days or fourteen straight days, or
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: maybe it's five straight days, whatever it is. Um. People
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: quickly will find out that's that's not as easy and
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: not even as fun sometimes as we imagine it's going
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: to be. When we're sitting here in February dreaming about
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: the run, um, can you can you just talk a
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: little bit about maybe some of the things you've learned
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: over the years about the mental side of hunting at
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: that time of year. It's geographic location as far as
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: as being out there, trying to be out there as
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: many days as humanly possible during the month in November
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: for me, maybe even I mean October can be good too.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: I killed some some of my better dear that last
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: week of October as well. Um, but then it's pretty
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: right near rub lines and they're very predictable as far
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: as where they're going to walk, not when, but where. Um.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: But uh, the thing is, you know, taking the vacation
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: and for the average working person which I was for
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: a lot of years with my construction job, you don't
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: get the home of to run and gun. So that
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: this is a very interesting and I'm glad you brought
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: this up because the timing of the rut and maybe
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: you'll agree, maybe you'll disagree, But I think it's it's
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: so up in the air anymore. It just seems like
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: we don't, at least here in Wisconsin and a few
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: other places I hunt. You never know when that peak
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: week is going to be anymore. Um. It used to
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: be seems to me anyway, that it used to be
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: later here in Wisconsin. Now it seems like it's earlier.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: That's just me. Uh. South Dakota, I killed that deer
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: last year with bone arrow that that's later than more.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: All out there, I think I could be wrong. I've
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: on it all there for twelve fourteen years. But it's
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: just tough. You can look at moon phase and I
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: don't know all of this has a plays. The factor
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: of weather is a huge factor. Um, if if we
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: get that warm weather in November that you know we
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: do get occasionally get suppressed as a rout without a doubt,
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: I think you'll agree with me when that happens. Oh no,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: and it you know, it's it's just pretty much all
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: nocturnal then or maybe not even you know, going to
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: happen until later. But I don't think there's a I
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: think it's it's different by geographic location. But I also
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: think there's the moon phases, the weather, um, the buck,
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: the door ratio, and you know, there's so many factors
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: beyond what some people would point to and go, well,
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: here's why the here's why the rut was no good
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: this year, here's why the you know just didn't happen here. Well,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: it happens every year, yea. Um, But I can't. I
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: can't honestly and truthfully sit here and say, well, this
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: is the reason that this happens, and even after all
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: these years, I think it's a it's a combination of
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: factors that if they all if one or two of
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: them happen at the same time. With three, it's going
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: to affect the rut period regardless of geographic location. Is
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: there is there anything? And this kind of goes back
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: to something I mentioned a second ago as far as weathering,
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: that's getting through that period of the hunting season with
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: your wits about you. Is there anything you've learned? Just
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: just for me, I always think of as a grind,
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: Like the rut is a grind. It's it's gonna be
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: tough to get up in the morning. Some days, it's
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: gonna be tough to sit in the stand through the
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: storm and make it all the way until dark. There's
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: gonna be days I'm like, dang it, I just want
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: to sleep in today. Um, And you know, I try
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: to push through it. I've I've though I've been kind
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: of evolving a little bit and I don't I don't
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: know where you're at on this, But for a lot
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: of years I thought you should hunt every single day
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: that you can, the entire day that you can during
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: the run, every single moment. You gotta just push through
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: the exhaustion, push through everything else. I've just sort of
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: started to rethink that a little bit especially now with
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: young kids and stuff. Um, maybe it makes sense to
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: sleep in, maybe choose a day and say, you know what,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna sleep in today and go out to hunt
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: at noon instead, because that half day rest and extra
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: town in my family will make me that much more
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: focused and that much more effective of a hunter the
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: next six days because that I gave myself that and
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: that's gonna make me better because of it. Have you
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: do you have any thoughts on that? Have you gone
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: through those same ups and downs and questions as you've
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: as you've hunted the Run over the years. Absolutely, I
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: mean it's it's it's even more you know you've gotten older.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: It's it's it's become even are difficult to do that grind,
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: and it is a grind, um, you know now that
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: I've slowed down on the production and and just it's
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: just picking and choosing some room with it hunts to do.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: And of course, you know a couple of those are
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: going to be really good early season hunts that have
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: been reliable for us in the past. But I'm still
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: basing the majority of my hunting activity around the Run.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: You know, it's the time of year we all wait for,
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: we can't you know that three letter word does more
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: to stimulate guys than the other three letter words, I think,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: But um, it only comes once a year, and it's like,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: I gotta be out here. But what you said about
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: just taking a day and collect your thoughts and get
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: your wits about you, that I think that's extremely extremely
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: good advice. I there's you know, when I was really
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: running and gunning and doing this there, it was a
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: real it was real risk of the burnout factor. And
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: so I mean, if you're not on top of your game,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: if you're not as sharp as you should be when
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: you're out there, then why be out there? Take a
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: day or two, even sleep in one morning. Just just
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: don't set the alarm clock or set your phone to
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: buzz at a certain time in the morning, you know,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: and sleep in one day. The problem with that is
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: as soon as you wake up, you're gonna feel guilty.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: But I think it's I've done it on out of
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: state hunts where you know we're under the gun, and
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: this is this is a pretty important deal. There's a
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: lot of pressure. We got to try and get thirteen
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: original episodes in the can each season, and you just
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: have to take a day off, you just do. But
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: whether it's during a rut or not, it's it does
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: catch up to a person, and especially you know, it's
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: a little bit unique in a situation like yours where
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: it's for the show or or even for myself when
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's part of my my job as well,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: but when you're just doing this for fun because that's
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: how you want to use your vacation time. I still
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: think there is a certain amount of pressure on a
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: lot of people these days because so many of us
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: take hunting so seriously, we're so passionate about it, and
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: and it maybe it's even getting a little competitive, people
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: kind of comparing apples to apples with what did you shoot?
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: What do you shoot? Your buddy got this, dear. I
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: think there's probably a lot of people that feel this
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: pressure during the rut, like it's got to happen. This
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: is when it's supposed to happen. I waited all year
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: for this to happen. And as soon as you at
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: least this is my two cents. As soon as you
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: start feeling that way, and it goes from being a
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: thing you're really excited about and looking forward to every morning,
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: and that you're thinking, Gali, I'm the luckiest guy in
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: the world because I get to do this today. If
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: you don't feel like that anymore, you probably should take
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: a day off because if this is how you're spending
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: your vacation time, this is supposed to be fun. It
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: shouldn't feel like a crappy job you're going to in
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: the morning. Um. I think those at risk sometimes if
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: if you take it too seriously. So that's that's something
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: I've been thinking about. Two. Yeah, and that's that's very
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: well put markets If it's if it's just become a
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: grind and it's you're you're really not having fun. But
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: it's also you get to that state with your on
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: the mental side of it because you're tired and you're
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: burned out, and you can recover. I mean, just taken
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: one day off has worked wonders for me. You said
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: it helps you. It's just one day. It's just one day, um,
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: and then you'll be ready to get after it again.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: It doesn't take much. But it's a little bit longer
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: than that now for me, but not much. It's still great.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: I think it's just so cool that I've done it.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: As long as I've done it, and it gets to
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: be that time of year and you know, taking a
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: day off as hard, that's great that it still gets
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: you excited and amp to be out there. I'm glad
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: to know that that's still just as powerful of the
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: thing for you as as it was thirty years ago.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: So that's pretty cool to know that it's not going
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: to get old. No, no, you know, And I've I've
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: I've been blessed. I've done it more, more years and
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: more places, with more more situations, different situations, and most
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: people ever will And like I said, I'm I'm blessed
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: to have been able to do that. But it's also
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: when you do it to that degree, the burnout factor
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: becomes way more um of a possibility. And then then
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: just say, you know, the average deer hunter, and by average,
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: I don't mean to to mean anybody. It's just the
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: guy that hunts, you know, the same tracted land um
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: day after day. And that's the other thing is if
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: you're hunting the same tract of land, maybe you need
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: to take a little time off, because if you're putting
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: that much pressure on the deer herd as a whole,
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: maybe you should just stay out there for a day
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: and let them regroup too. It's not just us, it's
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: the deer that we're putting the pressure on. Good point.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: I want to I want to pick your brand in
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: one more specific tactical thing, and then we should we
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: should probably wrap this up because I've kept you here
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: a long time. Um. But you mentioned de coin, and
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: that is something I actually reached out to Pat Durkin
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: before this and just mentioned that we were going to
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: chat and ask him if there's anything that he thought
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: that I should ask you about, because he's I know,
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: you guys have known each other and work together for
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: a good number of years. And and he brought up
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: two things, and one of them was decoin, the fact
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: that you are a little bit unique and how often
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: you use it and how effectively you've used it. Um.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: And I've actually saw in one episode of a show
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: of yours, and maybe you've done this other times, but
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: I thought I saw this and thought it was pretty interesting.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: You were actually set up with two decoys. We were
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: in a fence row and you had to feel on
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: your left and feel in your right, and you had
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: a buck decoy in the left side field you had
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: a buck decoy in the right side field. UM. I
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: thought that was pretty unique and it made sense in
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: the situation. I really like to hear a little bit
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: more about that kind of to situation and other situations
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: where you use decoys and how you do that well,
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: that situation, that's interesting. You should bring that up because
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: when I when I signed the deal with North American
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: White Tail to do X number of hunts each year.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: UM the executive producer uh and the guy that's that's
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: running the show got the name of Laden Forest, asked
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: me if I they wanted to flash back to two
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: of my earlier hunts, two of my favorite hunts all
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: time from the days when I was with North American
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: Whitetail Television. And that's one of the hunts I picked.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: And that that situation Mike Clerkin was filmed in me
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: and Mike's made his way around the industry now and
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: become a name for himself. But we were we were
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: on this rut hunt in Illinois and it was happening
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: and we just couldn't get anything close to us, and
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: we found this set up that was there was a
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: winter wheat field on both sides of this um brushy
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: fence line and there was a one lone white ochre
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: red oak that was perfect for our tree stands, and
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: so we got her stands up and Mike says, so,
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: we're you gonna put the decoy And I'm like, well,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: if I put it on that side and what comes
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: on this side, he'll never see it. And I said,
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: if I put it on that side, then the same
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: thing will happen if he comes on this side. And
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: Mike said, I said, you don't happen to have a
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: decoy in your truck to me, and he said I do.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: I said, that's problem solved. I said, We're going to
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: something I've never done before, just in case that um
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: because they were just pounding this winter wheat both sides
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: of this brush line and I killed That's the six
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: by six. I'm sitting in my living room right now.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: I got him double pedestal mount uh because I killed
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: a giant deer with a muzzleloader that same year in
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: Illinois and I got him on both on one pedestal.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm sitting here looking at it was a
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: six by six typical. It was probably I don't know,
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: ten ten thirty in the morning. He just come cruising
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: and and he uh, all by himself and kind of
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: on the lope, and I got his attention with rattling antlers,
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: and I blew on my grunt call and came over.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: He came right into the decoy. But had had we
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: not had the one out on that side of the
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: brush line, he wouldn't have seen it. He wouldn't he
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: had me any reason to, you know, come up there, bias.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: But so, how are you specifically setting that decoy up?
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: What's the angle, what's the distance? How are you thinking
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: about the wind when you set in position? I'm curious
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: without the details there. Well, the wind I want, obviously,
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: I want to win blown from the decoy to me
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: as much as possible. Quartering wind could be okay. But
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: one thing I've noticed, and I don't know at all,
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: but I've been decoying longer than just about anybody I know,
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: and um that bucks typically will circle to the head
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: end of a buff decoy. They want to be looking
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: that thing right in the face. So what I do
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: is I put it out about yards, racing either directly
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: ad or slightly quartering towards my tree stand, so that
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: when the buck circles around to the head end, it
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: puts him between me and the decoy, which means he's
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: fifteen to twenty yards chip shot. And then you'll stop.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: The first thing you'll do is stop and turn his
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: head and look at the decoy, which gives me my
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: opportunity to draw my bone smoking. It's it's pretty simple, really,
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: but you've got to remember that a doll decoy typically
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: they'll circle to the tail end because they want to sniff,
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: you know. Um. So I not really use a doll
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: decoy much at all, um, But uh, I will tell
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: you this too. I I queried North American White Toie
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: Magazine for an article I'm writing for an early issue
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: this year, and it's about early season hunting, of course.
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: And I've killed two velvet bucks and another mature buck
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: over a decoy in September. And one of the bucks,
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at him here in my living room in
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: another mount. He's a hundred and seventy in deer that
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: without a decoy. It was September seven. I think I
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: killed him. These deer were coming out to an eight
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: acre alfalfa field and there were a dozen shooter bucks
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: in the bunch, but they were all over that field
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: and we watched a couple of evenings prior to the season,
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: and it's like, how do we go bucks? We put
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: a couple of round bales out there, had the rancher
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: put a couple of round bales out and put a
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: ground line in between them. We had deer all around us.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: Nothing came within range. So the next night I put
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: up a buck decoy and this buck and four other
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: bucks came out of a river bottom quarter mile away,
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: came all the way across the prairie and some of
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: the best forties we've ever laid down, and he came
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: right to the decoy and I killed him. I mean,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: he's got seventeen scorable points, basic six by six main frame,
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: just a brood of the deer. But the night before
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: we saw him and he was challenging every buck that
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: came into that field. This big deer would challenge. So
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: the next night I had the decoy with us. So
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: what's the scenario? And I think, I'm I'm picking up
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: on what the scenarios, but but lay it out clearly.
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: The scenario in which you would pull out a decoy
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: in the early season. Um kind of Well, for one thing,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: that first evening we sat there marked we I noticed
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: that they were not just that biggest buck. There was
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: another big buck, and there were a couple other bucks
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: that were big but built different. There was a lot
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: of pecking order stuff. We sat there for two hours
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: and watched because it's Montana and the deer out early.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: And I told Matt, my cameraman, I said, we come
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: back here tomorrow evening. That decoy is gonna be up
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: in this field. I said, they're getting this is there's
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: a lot of stuff going on here. Um. The very
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: first deer I killed for North American White Tailed Television
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: back in two thousand three, it was a big velvet
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: ten point Wyoming buck, and that deer came to a
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: decoy I placed out And I'll tell you this story.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: I remember when we got to where we were going
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: to be hunting in Wyoming, pat Reeve and Stan Pod,
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: my co host, were already there. I started unloading my
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: truck and I pulled that decoy out of the back
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: of my truck. You you should have heard those guys
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: laughing and giving the crash of having that. Miller brought
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: a decoy. Miller bought a decoy along. I'm like, okay,
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: ended up killing a big velvet ten point that in
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: no way, shape or form would have walk within bull
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: range of our tree had that decoy not been there,
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: because he's just checking out the new guy. And the
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: same with the box the big buck. Then you know
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: when I killed him the second evening with the decoy,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know what he was going to do, but
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: he was coming over to check out this new guy
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: that he hadn't seen before. That's my opinion. I mean
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: they look at a buck and go, who's that. I
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: don't know him. It's a curiosity thing that time year,
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: during the rut. They want to they want to simp it. Yeah.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I've noticed, and from listening
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: and reading and talking to other people who've had even
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: more experience of decoys than me, something you often hear
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: about is the risk factor with decoys and that being
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: sometimes does get really spooky about them. And so I've
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: heard some people talk about and I've tried to keep
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: this in mind when I decoy, about employing a decoy
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: in an area where you're not gonna have tons and
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: tons of doughs, Like the best case scenario seems to
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: be an area that maybe as a lower deer density,
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: so you're not gonna have sixty doughs out in the
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: field and then have your decoy and have every group
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: of doughs come by and spook and blow. Um. Is
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: that something you've seen as well? Or do you not
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: worry about does and you you're putting that decoy up regardless. Well,
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: I will tell you this, this Montana hunt I related
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: to you with this hundred and seventy inch deer. There
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: were sixty seventy deer in that field before those. I mean,
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: there were so many doughs. One thing I've noticed about
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: decoy consistently and does is dose don't like other doughs.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: I never use my decoy as a doll, and I've
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: seen that be consistent regardless of the time of the season.
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: If it's early season pre rut rut does don't like
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: other doughs and they're suspicious of them. I don't know
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: what it is, but I've used the decoys. I can't
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: tell you the last time that I had a set
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: up room because a deer turned inside out because of
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: my decoy. I really can't mark. I you know, I
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: hear these things. But I know people think they got
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: stuf figured out, and maybe they want to use it
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: as a doll. But I strongly encourage people that if
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: they're going to use a decoy, strongly consider using it
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: as a buck. It seems they be a lot lower
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: impact on the behavior of the deer than than a
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: dough decoy. And I don't know what that's about, but
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: I do know that those mature dolls don't like other
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: mature dolls, and that's what that thing looks like. And
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: it's not doing anything. It's not moving, it's not acknowledging them,
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: and then they get suspicious, and then they get angry,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: and then they get suspicious again. So that's just been
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: my experience. But I've been decoying, like I said, since
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: oh gosh, you're early nineties, a long time. It's something
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: I want to try, or I've always been afraid to
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: do it. I've been pretty conservative when it comes to decoys, Um,
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: but I have. I have once decoyed one and had
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: a really cool hunt and killed one and have wanted
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: to try it more and more. Um do you do
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: you do anything unique to the decoy? I know some
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: people put scent on them. Some people will put a
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: little white handkerchief for something on the tail. So there's
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: a little flick in the wind. Um. Some people take
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: one antler off. I've done that. Sometimes do one antler buck.
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: Anything that you do with your decoy that's unique or
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: just standards, throw out throw out a small buck to
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: your regular buck decoy and let her go. Yeah, I
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: use the carry light. And um, there's there's some you know,
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: because I I used to work with those people, and
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: you know, I've got three or four of them. But
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: there are some other really good decoys out there. But
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: I runned as the buck. The other thing is people
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: tell me something's got to be moving on that thing,
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: and I tell them, well, you know how many years experienced,
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: twenty years experience. We're using decoys. It tells me of
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: that the less it moves, the more it seems to
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: irritate him, especially a buck, that whatever he does, this
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: thing won't even acknowledge him. And finally it's like, I'm
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: coming over there to thump you. You won't even acknowledge
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: my existence. I'm coming over there to check you out.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: Now about the putting something on the tail? You know,
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: deer grow up as babies. They grow up following mama
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: watching her tail. How many flicks mean danger? How many
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: flicks mean everything's cool. I don't know. You don't know,
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: so putting something that moves in the wind on their
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: on their butt, as you know, I've heard of people.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: You know, one guy told me he had a big
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: buck coming in. This has been years ago, and he
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: had he had a white hanky or some tissue or
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: something that taped on this decoy's butt, and the first
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: time it moved in the wind, the buck kind of
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: looked at it and then continued to come in. And
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: then it started to really blow and flick. That buck
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: looked at it, turn and trotted off. So I don't
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: know how many flicks mean everything's cool. Um, there's something wrong.
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: So I'm not gonna have anything on that decoy that
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: I can't control that might mean this or it might
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: mean that. And that's just my opinion. I you know,
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: I've been doing this long time, like I said, with
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: the decoys, but um, they grew up watching walking behind Mama,
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: watching her tail. Those those flicks means something, but we
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: don't know what that is. Yeah, it's a good point.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: It's a good point. Well, uh, Greg, this is this
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: has been a lot of fun. I've I've been talking
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: your ear off here now, so I want to let
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: you get to the rest of your day. UM, I
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: guess I would. I would ask you one last thing
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: or one and a half last things. Um. Number one,
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: is there anywhere you could direct people if they want
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: to learn more from you or pick up your books
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: or anything that can you tell folks where to find
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: more Greg Miller resources? And then number two, are there
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: any other resources out there that you would wreck amendo folks,
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: whether it be a book, a show, a person, I
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: don't know. I always I'm interested in other folks recommendations
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: for where you would turn to to learn more or
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: to to get more of this kind of stuff. Well,
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: unfortunately all my books are out of print. But on
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: a positive note, my son Jake is who is you
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: know my business partner was and still there is actually
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: you know, we're just going in a different different direction
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: with our production company. But we're we're probably in the
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: process of not probably, we're in the process of getting
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: my third book, rub Line Secrets, which was my best
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: seller of all We're gonna have that redone in hardcover,
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: So I don't know the timeline on that. UM. I'll
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: be doing seminars at the Ohio Deer and Turkey expou
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: the third weekend in March and at the Wisconsin Deer
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: and Turkey Expo in Madison. I think it's the first
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: or second weekend in April. People could hook up with
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: me there and I can give them more details. Um,
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 1: but as far as anything interesting, you know, I would
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: say that I'm really happy to be you know, as
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: as far as you know going forward, I'm really I'm
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: really happy and uh that I'm back with North American
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: White Tailed Television because you know, as far as the
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: visual medium, that's kind of where I got not kind
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: of that's where I got my start, you know, and
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: then blossomed into my own television show and all that.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 1: So I'm glad to be back with him. And Gordon Whittington,
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: like I said, bought my very first magazine article way
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: back in and he's the editor of North American White
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: Tail to this day. So it's great to be back
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: working with those guys. Yeah, that's great. They they're one
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: of the first magazines I was able to publish an
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: aricle and too, so I have some some strong positive
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: associations with what they've been doing as well. So good stuff. Yeah,
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: you know, and they're they're a good group to work
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: with her. You know. It's I know the print medium
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: was kind of had some hard times lately, but it's
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: good to know that, you know that they're still buy
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: in the North American White Tail magazines and reading him
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: because that's I mean, there's a lot of online stuff,
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: but it's it's great, you know, because I got ink
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: in my veins. I've been a journalist for a long
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: time and it's that that that thing doesn't go away. Yeah,
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: I still love having the physical copy as well. I
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: got a stack of him sitting right next to me.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: I can put my hands on him right now, right
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: next to me, So it's still nice to be open
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: the page. So I'm sitting here at my my favorite
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: spot on the coach, and I got a whole stack
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: up on my own table here. The coolest thing for
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: me right now, Greg is I've got a two year
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: old son, and every morning now he gets up in
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: the morning and when he's laying there in bed, he
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: just starts saying Mama, dada, Mama, dada, And then eventually
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: I'll get up and go grab him. And the first
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: thing I want to do is he will run to
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: the couch and he will grab a magazine in off
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: of the coffee table next to the couch, and it's
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: always a deer hunting magazine, so it's usually North American
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: White tailor Peterson's Bow Hunting or something like that Bow
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: Hunter magazine, and he'll grab it and he'll make me
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: flip through the pages with him, and he points at
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: everything and sometimes I'll say, oh, let's say big buck,
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: or he'll grunt when he sees a picture. And that's
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: that's how my days start right now. And uh, that's
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: about as cool as it gets. And it wouldn't happen
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: if we didn't have real deer hunting magazine still, so
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: they're pretty special cool. It is the coolest. Yes, well, Greg,
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: I just want to thank you again and um please
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: please stay in touch and if if we ever can
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: convince you to come back, I'd love to chat with
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: you more. Yeah, that's not a problem I got. I
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: got way more time to do stuff like this now
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: than I did when I was running and gunning thirteen
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: different states in four weeks, so yeah, I hear you. Well,
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: thank you again, Greg, and best of luck with your
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: offseason scouting and coming up into the season. And that
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: is a rap. Big thank you to everyone out there
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: for tuning in. Hope you enjoyed this one. Stay tuned
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: for much more to come with the podcast. Stay tuned
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: with the back forty season two show coming back at
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: you later this year, and make sure you found Wired
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: Hunt over on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter for all of
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: my live updates throughout the week, throughout my life. All
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: the interesting things I'm doing that maybe I don't get
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: to share here in the podcast, they're covered there, so
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: check it out. Good luck outside and you're scouting efforts,
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: your trash cleanup efforts, you're shed hunting, whatever it is
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: you're up to right now, enjoy it. Thanks for being
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: a part of this community, and until next time, stay
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: Wired to Hunt.