Latest / Leaders In Payments / Carlos Netto, Co-Founder & CEO of Matera | Episode 303

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Carlos Netto, Co-Founder & CEO of Matera | Episode 303 · Leaders In Payments

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Leaders in Payments podcast, where we talk to C-level leaders from across the payments landscape.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: We'll be discussing the products and services that impact the payment space today, as well as trends and predictions for the future of payments.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: We will also hear stories from our guests about their journeys to the top.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: We have two of the top three global banks, three of top 10 US banks and one third of all the banks in Brazil.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: So in 35 years a little bit less we build from nothing out of the university.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: All these markets share in Brazil, though we don't work with, like inside, global banks.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: We have those software sold in the United States for banks operating in Brazil, but they have all the IT in the United States.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: So we're very proud of what we've done recently, though.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Today we have 1100 employees and more than a close to 200 banks.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: That was Carlos Neto, the co-founder and CEO of Metera, and he is my special guest on this episode of the Leaders in Payments podcast and I'm your host, Greg Myers.
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: Carlos and I first discussed his background and all about Metera.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: We spend most of the time talking about PIX, what it is, what makes it unique and some of the differences between PIX in Brazil and instant payments in the US.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: We conclude with a conversation around Carlos' personal and professional passions.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: We've got a great episode ahead, so let's get started.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Hi, Carlos, Thank you for being here and welcome to the Leaders in Payments podcast.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Take care.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Alright, well, let's dive right in.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: If you don't mind, tell our audience a little bit about yourself, maybe where you grew up, where you went to school, where you currently live, a few things like that.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, I was born in Brazil.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: No, I went to school here in Brazil too computer science.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: I live here in Campinas, a city one hour from Sao Paulo, and it's called, like the Silicon Valley in Brazil, so I'm a classical nerd.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: I started 11 years old assembling computer parts, computer number, large electronic parts, and so I love doing what I do today, working with computers and so forth.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: That's why I love living here in Campinas, because it's a city full of technology and so forth.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: Okay, great.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about Matera, the company that you are a co-founder and the CEO of, so tell the audience what Matera does.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Well, we start Matera out of the University, similar to some companies you have in Silicon Valley in the United States A bunch of programmers.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: We didn't want to make anything particular but based on the marketing conditions here in Brazil.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: So for us, we started creating software for banks and we didn't know anything about banks at the time, but I worked with more modern technologies.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: It opened many doors in the banking market in Brazil and today Matera is more than 30 years old and we have a lot of banks who have a core banking similar to FIS or FISER or Jack Herrod, but for Brazil, no, brazil is very unique in terms of regulatory stuff and so forth, so I don't have any global core banking provider working in Brazil and Matera is the leader today.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: You know, we have two of the top three global banks, three of top 10 US banks and one third of all the banks in Brazil.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: So in 35 years a little bit less we viewed from nothing out of the University.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: All these markets share in Brazil, though we didn't work with, like inside, global banks.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: We have a software sold in the United States for banks over in Brazil, but they have all the IT in the United States.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: So we are very proud of what we've done recently, though.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Today we have 1100 employees and more than close to 300 banks.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: It's important that by being a more techie guys not only myself, but every employee here and so forth, every movement in Brazil going to digital banking, stuff like that we could move a step ahead.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: We grew a lot and more recently, pix it was a very high-frequency transaction system and so forth.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: So our roots, our DNA for high-tech stuff helped a lot and for each other, the idea today.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: We processed last month close to 400 million transactions in one month.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: Just to have a comparison, that's 20 times more than RTPs doing in the entire United States.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: It's more than ZEL doing in the entire United States just on terror.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: So we are processing a lot of instant payments and it means not only moving money from one place to another place, but to register.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: We know we have the DDA that can keep up with this high volume of transaction.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: That's very tricky, you know, and availability is 24 by 7 because people use it all the time.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: There is no excuse like people, tomorrow the system is going to be down for eight hours because they're going to upgrade their software.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: It's simply not acceptable.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: It has to work 24 by 7, even when they are 8 degrees in software.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: So by working with Death's Not Error, we offer solutions for core banking, including payments, pics and so forth, and, globally speaking, we are not taking our.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: We're not going to sell our core banking solution in the United States, for example, in Canada, because this is a core banking just good for Brazil, but for other countries.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: We see all these experiences and software for instant payments as a good solution to be adopted in other countries, especially countries that are moving to instant payments.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: Okay, what would you say?
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: Differentiates Matera from your competitors out there.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Well, one thing that can be interpreted by a fact is the volume we will process.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: You know, we just have other banks doing similar volumes to us when banks did develop internal solution huge banks and they don't sell the software.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: So to compare with competitors that is when we talk about companies that are selling solutions similar to us we don't have any competitor doing the volume of transactions we are doing today.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: For example, our DDA system and they call the DDA is like the airport for the airplane, if you consider the payments in the airplane, because the instant payment is a counter-account, so the money flows from one account to another account.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: So the DDA system has to be very fast.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we have some situations here where we know that the transaction frequency is slowing down, not because of the big solution is bad, but because of the DDA is not keeping up, is not processing and fast enough the transactions.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: So the differentiation is that we have a solution that was tested, rather a run the test, with 145 million accounts processing 13,000 transactions per second, and that's in test.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: And in production we have clients doing like 10,000 transactions per minute in production.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: So when you go to volume, we are the way to go here.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: You know, because we have production environments where people are using banks and using solutions or whoever is wanting to buy, to license a software, to process peaks in Brazil when they see what you have here in production, they get impressed, and that's the way to go.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Okay, and so this next section of the interview.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: I want to really dive deep into PICS and you've mentioned it a couple of times.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: I think you know here, at least in the US, instant payments or faster payments or account-to-account payments whatever term you want to use is a very hot topic and I think there's potentially some lessons learned about what has been done in Brazil.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: So I want to make sure we dive deep into that.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: So for our audience, if you don't mind, let's just start at the highest level and you know, for those that are listening who aren't familiar with what PICS is, can you just explain, sort of or define PICS and tell our audience what it really is?
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about PIX.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: Pix is a network that enables users to move money from an account to another account so the payer can send money to the payee in 6 seconds, 24x7.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: But it's not just the rate.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: I believe the big difference.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: If you want to compare PIX to FedNow or RTP, pix was designed having the user experience in mind.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: I was a member of the group that designed PIX.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Pix was designed by Central Bank in Brazil, but working along with the community, so banks, tech providers, many other industries there, retailers were there.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: So we were discussing just use case in the beginning.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: After having the use case defined, then we started talking about are we going to use ISO messages or are we going to use blockchain, for example?
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: No, I see that's a huge difference.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: So when PIX was launched in Brazil, I used PIX.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: The same day I could not use FedNow yet because when PIX was launched, every bank app had a button named PIX with a standard logo, and there is what we call here the minimal user experience.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: So a user can go to bank A or bank B or bank C and hit the button and transfer the money.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: All the director services were defined.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: So it was very good to send money to a friend, like I just sent money to the cell phone of the friend and they gave us just to associate our phones with accounts, like 15 days.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: I can remember 15 days or a month before PIX launched.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: So when PIX was launched, every friend had a red PIX key that is your email or cell phone associated with your bank account.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: So it was pretty easy.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: So when PIX was launched, it did not only grow fast, but we started using it the same day.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: You know, because of this way we designed PIX, that is, think about use case and providing a user experience to the user.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: So banks were mandated to offer PIX to the users, but we are not mandated to use it.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Pix is a success because we took a decision to use it with users.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: So if you see, I believe that almost every Brazilian has a PIX key.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Every Brazilian with a bank account has a PIX key and can receive money.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: We don't use anything.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Cash is dying in Brazil, you know, because we can pay everybody's PIX.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: If you are like a traffic light somebody is bagging money, there is a PIX key there, key or codes also, like if you go to a store you can scan the key or code, you can pay.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: And now you are going to have like a key or code.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: So we have a key or code on stores, e-commerce, utility bills, tax payments.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: So everything is being migrated to PIX and PIX is going to be what I call the internet of the money or the internet of the accounts.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: So every money transferred between a pair and a payee is migrating to PIX because it's very simple to use, it's very inexpensive, like the internet.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: So when PIX was launched initially, just P2P friends send money to friends no, because it took some time from merchants to adopt their systems to have the QR code there.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Or for tax collectors, irs and so forth to create the QR code there.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: No, and they didn't know PIX was going to grow so fast.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: But when they realized that PIX was growing so fast, they started pushing it with more priority and so today, even the QR codes we use a lot.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: And so if you want to compare PIX to like FedNow or RTPO to say, much more comprehensive, because we have not only the array, we have the user gates, we have the standard QR code and by having a standard protocol, a standard way of using standard QR code, no, and the very inexpensive one transaction.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: The central bank charged the bank one Brazilian real estate for every 10 transactions.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: It would be like in the US, one US dollar set for every 50 transactions.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: So it's very, very cheap, no, for the bank.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: And another thing that I know that, not comparing to the US, but comparing, for example, to India, upi, that's not a success.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: I had a conversation with a professional from this area in Egypt recently.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I mean a multiple and UPI, nobody's making any money, so there is no effort to make it happen.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: You know, as in Brazil, for example, if a bank goes to a utility company and adds the bank's QR code there, the bank's going to make money and the bank can make like a 15 cents per utility bill paid by using things you know.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: So they change, they go there, they go to the company and they find like one utility, a big one in some part.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: You know, like the bank gave one year free just to help the company to adapt the systems, to embed the QR code and the utility bill, you know, and that because it takes time, you have to change your system, like asking people, whatever they are using, to collect the payments, and the bank like, okay, I help you finish it speaking.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I give you like a year free or six months free.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: So what you would pay to me, you pay internally to make this solution working and I start making money later.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: But because there is a business case, because there is a way to make money, companies are pushing things to be used.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: So I believe that in the US it would be very great for having like companies and payment processors or even banks that are like using FedDauer, tp2p, using funds from your credit limit, not from your bank account, to make money, because if banks are making money, if merchants are saving money, you know it helps a lot things to work.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: You know it's not only mandating.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Mandating is okay, help it a lot.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: In Brazil, all banks are offering big, but saving money for tax collectors and making money for banks is fundamental also to help this working Okay yeah, that's a formula for getting things done for sure.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: So Matera recently launched a report called PIX by the Numbers, and I think that's a regular report that you guys do.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: So maybe discuss some of the highlights of that report if you don't mind.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been publishing this every quarter about showing numbers, the usage and so forth, and recently we were talking about what you call PIX automatic.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: That is a request for payment that you have arrived in FedNow.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: That's something that PIX is behind, but the way you're going to make it happen is very interesting, because you don't need to approve every new payment, like if you're going to pay your utility bill or your Netflix.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: You just read the QR code once and you hit the button pay.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: It's going to say you want to subscribe, like when you're purchasing something on Amazon, when I buy the stuff Amazon offers, do you want to have this every month?
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: So when I read your code, hit the button pay, I can say okay, for the next 12 or 24 months you can charge back on.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Don't need to ask me permission.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give you a bank the permission to pay this every month If the amount is not up to like $1,000, for example, or up to $100, whatever makes sense for that stuff.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: So we're going to be able to add your credit card, your wine club, your school, your Netflix, your Google, your chat to PT monthly payment, whatever you want to PIX, and they're going to be able to collect payments from your account directly, and what I like to imagine is that enables some other user case, not only recurring payments like monthly payments, but recurring payments that are not every month.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Every time you push a button, for example, you can have your account inside like Amazoncombr.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: You will do, and whenever you buy something, amazon can collect the payments directly from your bank account.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: So saving Amazon a lot of money and use and saving friction, because today Amazon is offering like 10% discount if you pay using QR code, sometimes not every day promotions and so forth, but you know you have to read the QR code.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: If you're on your phone, you cannot read the QR code.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: You're on phone for your own screen, so there is what you call cop and paste.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: So you cop the QR code from Amazon app and you paste in your bank.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: That's a terrible user experience, so this friction sometimes can lead to losing, say, or whatever.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: So with this PIX automatic that is going to be signed, amazon, for example, is in this situation just say here, I'm not saying that.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Amazon has this today.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: You know, it's just an example.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: You can just choose the item you want and press a button buy, like you do when you have cards on fire.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Same user experience, Not much cheaper, much cheaper for the e-commerce now.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And PIX there is no charge backs for PIX, so nobody's going to steal your card number to use your card number like they do with cards, because PIX is not, is not POO is POOSH.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: So it's not like cards that whoever has your card number they can use your money.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: For PIX, you have to go to your bank app, put your credentials there and say pay, so you're pushing the payment from inside your app.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: So it's much safer and there is no charge back.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: There's no fraud.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: There are some other kinds of fraud, but not the classical fraud that you see your card number.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: So for the e-commerce, they save a lot of money.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: And so the PIX, the PIX automatic, is something that's coming and that's very relevant.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: It's coming from the central bank regulator as a regulator, but they developed this along with the community as well.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: And also there are some other use cases here that are totally not felt about central bank, not felt about undefined by the regulator.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: For example, there is a Lloyd system, Lloyd program system here in Brazil, that you can pay anything that are accepting PIX using your Lloyd points.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: So you go to a store like Starbucks, you buy coffee and when you're going to pay for that coffee, you read the QR code and you pay, but the money is not going from your bank account.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: The money is being sent to Starbucks from the Lloyd program company account and they're deducted in your points balance.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: So this tool is very unique because when PIX was created, it was like account to account In our mind.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Just thinking inside the box every time you think, believe me, it's my account to the merchant account, but there is no rule saying that if you press a button, you're paying for your own account.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: In this case, I'm paying a button and I'm not writing the payment from the Lloyd points account actually, and the Lloyd points pay on my behalf and they're deducted in my Lloyd points.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: It can be expanded to paying with Bitcoins, paying with Ethereum, any crypto like.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: They deduct your crypto balance and they pay in Brazilian Reais or can pay with foreign currencies like US dollar, for example.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting how the private sector, not only regulator, can innovate and create innovative solutions on top of PIX, so you have PIX by now, pay later.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: The industry is creating a lot of new functionalities on top of PIX, which is good.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit covered by PIX by numbers because it comes back to a sad the internet of the money, Like the internet was created in the past and people create a lot of stuff on top of the internet.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: I believe things nobody thought about before, even the internet creators.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: It's happening today with PIX.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: It's a network and it's open and people are creating stuff on top of that.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: But the big movement that's going to happen in Brazil is PIX Automatic, because PIX is growing like crazy and it's still very bad for recurring collections payments.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: So by having this it's creating a new market for PIX.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: So we expect a big growth again by occupying this market.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: So it sounds like PIX has been successful so far, and then you just mentioned a whole bunch of new use cases that it's going to make it even more successful.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: So what has surprised you most about the success of it in Brazil?
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: To be honest, almost everything We've designed PIX and in the beginning we're anxious it's going to work out.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: People are going to use that and so forth because we know that, like in some countries, instant payments were flawed, but we are betting that Brazil has a huge pure population.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Let's say so.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: If you see how many Brazilians have a credit card like 32% and so on so we have a huge population without a credit card.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: We have a huge population without an entrance or house where you can send an ad card to.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: A huge population without a bank account.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: But they were able now to have a fintech account.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: That was regulated by Central Bank in 2014.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: So, with this huge bank population, I believe that was very relevant.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Also, we don't have Venmo here, so sending money to France was not so easy like it is in my states today, you know.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: So, combining all these factors, that I can send money by just having the full number of the person, this unbanked population.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Now they can have a fintech account, they can receive their payments.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: So, for baggy money, even if you have a work like a housekeeper and so forth, now you can get paid by PIX.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: So this paid into GRIO.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you think, wow, what surprised me the speed of growth.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: We never thought that PIX was going to grow so fast like it did.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Today we have more transactions on PIX than credit cards and debit cards combined.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: So what it created was succeeded much more than everybody was expecting In the first year of PIX.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: One year, just one year we had a celebration like one year of PIX, big success and so forth.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: They counted five songs talking about pics.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: So just for you to know how it occupies your culture, like kind of all people using like glasses send my pics here.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: So they're using pics as a word of money.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: So it's incredible how it penetrates our culture, our way to work and so forth.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: So a bunch of jokes on top of that.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: So when I get back, like three years before, even having the name pics defined, just quitting this instant payment solution, I feel very proud now about everybody did on this, because it's really a huge success now.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: So the big surprise was this huge success we never thought we were expect.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Like I said, by not having credit cards and bank accounts, we're going not to be a flop.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: We're going to succeed, but not this kind of success.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Well, obviously we don't have pics here in the US, but we do have similar technologies but maybe implemented differently.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: As you've mentioned, we have Zell, we have RTP and FedNow, I mean are there and you've talked a little bit about sort of the comparisons.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: But what do you think that the success of pics in Brazil means to the US market?
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I believe that, like in Brazil, we use pics to fill a gap In the US.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: I would fill the gap I can see today, and one gap I see in the US is the lack of a standard QR code.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Before pics, it was very common to go to a store and see there are five QR codes, like that DoorDash QR code, doordash to the Brazilian version and some others, so nobody was using it.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Because five QR codes, five places to reconsolate payments.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Everybody carry a different app and, based on your app, you have to choose the right QR code and your app is not every store with five QR codes, so I have like five apps with balance.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: It was a mess.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: So now I just have one app, the one I prefer.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I can choose one, two or three, whatever, because they are based on the same standard QR code and the store.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: You go to the store, I see the QR code they pay.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: In the United States I don't see this standard QR code.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Yet I see many rails.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: So I believe that for the US to have success, that would be much more on P2P, not P2P like in Brazil, and having a standard QR code.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: That would be good for any rail.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: So I go to a store, a CDCURCode and they pay or show my QR code, that consumer presents mode and they pay and they don't care which rail is going to be used.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: No, I just pay.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: And my bank and the merchant banks going to talk to each other, see what they have in common and like, oh, you have RTP, I have RTP too, I'm selling payment using RTP.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: So the user experience is going to be just display your scan and QR code and press a button, but between software the software from the bank and the software from the merchant they're going to see which network they have in common and so forth, and the payment is done and everything in six seconds.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: So for a user, it's going to be totally transparent, even at the time it's going to take for the payment.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: If you create this and you enable payment processors to make money on the merchant side and if you enable banks to make money on the payment side, especially if the payment is funded not by your balance but from your credit limit in the bank then you're going to create a more efficient way for consumers to pay in stores, removing a lot of many actors, simplified system, but keeping the bank and make money and keeping the merchants saving money, but the payment processor getting some payments there.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: It would be like a good equation, because you're going to bring efficient to P2P payments, but you're going to keep some way for the remainder place to make money After that, of course, having a sale, that is good, that is a sale, but you don't have a sale for every bank in the United States.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: So perhaps by doing P2P, like if you have an account on a community bank or an original bank, you're going to be able to receive a sale payments.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I cannot send money to my nephew.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: He lives in Colorado.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: He's an original bank there.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: That bank doesn't have a sale yet, so I have to use ACA or SWIFT.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: So perhaps FedNow and RTP a director service would be good for this.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: But, like I mentioned about the QR code for every rail, it would be nice to have a US director service.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: So a transfer money to your cell phone.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: It's a matter of knowing which network you have.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: So if you have like that and have FedNow, okay, no problem, I want you to send money to your cell phone.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: So, addressing this way, I believe it to be even better than PIX, because you're creating in the United States a competition between rails.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: So it would be rails.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: It would be stimulated to be cheaper and better, because the consumer and the immersion is going to select the rail in every transaction, which one's better, which one's faster, you know, and you're going to have just a standard for the protocols, standard for the QR code, standard for the director.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: You know the director can be created using like a blockchain, so nobody's going to own that.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I know that there is a culture like who's going to control that?
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I don't want this Fed to control my directory, so having a blockchain based director service would be like owned by nobody, so it's going to be public.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Every bank could have access there to be able to send money to the right place when I send the money to some specific cell phone.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: So my point of view, you know, is one way to go for the US to be proved.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Like I said for PIX, we didn't know that it was going to succeed, so we don't have a crystal ball here to be sure about that, but that's my guess and it's very good for banks and it has to be prepared for that.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: One thing I forgot to mention is that when PIX start growing so crazy, you know, we could realize that the bank, the core bank system.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: They start to be stressed a lot in a way that I know that Zelle is a red doing this, united States.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: I know from a bank a lot of disclosure name for sure that is experience a red.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Like 10 times more transactions on the bank account after Zelle being adopted by the user.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Because the user uses to go, like, to the ATM machine, withdraw some cash and using that cash and made payments and now they're doing all the payments using Zelle instead of going to the ATM.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: This increase in volume of transactions and the core banking can be tough for the bank.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Depending on the technology used to raise the mainframes, depending on the cost of the transaction.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: It can be bad.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: So my idea to make happen, I'd say, would be like the core code and open directory.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: But for the banks I would say be prepared for that.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Gens is coming.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: They don't want, they don't tolerate.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Like the system is down for eight hours or upgrades I would not pay.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Like Instagram is always on and everybody's everything is always on Netflix.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: So I want my bank to be on and fast instantaneously and, if it happens, if they want to work out, if you have some things similar to Brazil, 10 times less in Brazil is going to stress some core bank solutions, so it's important for the bank to be prepared for that.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: Sounds like we have a little bit of work to do here in the US, but it definitely sounds like it's doable, so let's hope that we've got some people moving in that direction.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe what you said right now is doable.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I believe that the most relevant inspiration you have to bring to the road, it's possible, it's doable.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Work, I mean consider your own reality, done, cop and paste what you did in Brazil, because here's different, but it's possible.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: We can change the way we pay now, we can have more efficient ways to pay and I believe that what Brazil is is inspiring other countries with fixes.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Say, do your job and consider your own reality and do, make something.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: You can do this.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: If you're done here in Brazil, you can do this in the US.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: Well, let's switch up a little bit and end the show talking about you.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: So tell us about your journey to your role there.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: Maybe give us the founder's story and talk about that a little bit.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Well, I always like computers and so forth.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: So, as I see, I was much more not a HR guy some leaders, they're much more like good and managing people.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: So of course, I was much more an inspiring guy, like everybody that came to my terror oh, he's doing this, you're doing that different.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: So and combining, after working a lot serving business, serving my clients, but never cutting my connection with technology.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: So I started learning how to match technology and business demands.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: So, hey, this business demand can be fixed with this technology.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: And when you know the technology and you're a tutor and you know business problems very well, especially by listening to experts, you know listening is fundamental.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: I loved it.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Like I'm not a business guy initially, today I know a lot about business, but I learned from other guys.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: When I meet somebody that has a knowledge on that specific area of business, I just listen to them because it's very relevant, and they start matching technology with the business problems, the business pains, and sometimes it comes to some new technologies and new inventions.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: For example, I could have a grant button in the United States by just combining very trivial technologies that a security guy when re-secure the patents really you got a patent for this but because if you're just a security guy or you know that's trivial but you don't know the business pain, you don't make the matching.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: But I could make the matching between those security technologies and so forth, encrypting technology with some business needs and I could create a process that I got a patent for that that enables you to pay with your cell phone without internet, not requiring any certified determinants on the merchant side.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: So a guy from encryption would say what's relevant Not using a certified terminal on the merchant side, but I know that certified terminal on the merchant side is very expensive and the required internet is also bad for some use case.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: That's one of my roles to have a vision for the future, creating new products.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: We started working with QR code in 2017 because it's like let's do something different and by doing different things and respecting my fellows, my partner, my employees because they're different, they have other skills, not my skills, but my skills are not enough we have to combine what you're good on with the other professionals that are good on some different things, working together and this way you can move forward In persistence.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: I like when I heard recently the GPT guy saying that persistence is very important if you want to be a CEO of a company, and that's true because PIX was a success and so forth, but that can name you 10 things that I with a lot of money, at least that forecast is going to happen.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: It's going to happen.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: That's the future.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: No, I figured so.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: It happens.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: But you have to be prepared for that because eventually you're going to hit and learn from your mistakes Every time.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Learn from your mistakes.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Never say the road is wrong and right.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: No, if you fail it's because you were wrong.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: And learn from your mistakes and improve it every day.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: And eventually you're going to make it right.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love it.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: So tell us some things you're passionate about.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: So maybe one work related passion and one personal passion.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Well, that's different from my case because person and professional are very mixed, because I'm very lucky to work with a love.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: So I was 11 years old and they start making FM transmitters Just sell to my friends, making money with this now, and I attended a presentation of was Six months ago and the mansion on his interview that he was going to do like a stand to buy magazines with some board there to assemble things.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: It was me, no, I was.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: I bought this FM transmitter.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: It came like stamp on a magazine, peace on a small board that you just sample pieces there.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: It was funny because that FM transmitter was able to cut the connection into issues.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Like the neighbor was watching soap opera, that's chapter on TV.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: It was open, he's was able to make the screen back.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: So the the mother of my friend was watching soap opera and boom, no more.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: And we were like it was funny, went to the cops, you are doing this nose impossible.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: So technology was my dream and since the beginning, 11 years old.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: So I'll do systems for us.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Because it was 70s, no computers yet, and 1983, when they entered the university, computers were coming to Brazil and it was like a passion.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: So I Invest a lot of my time work with computers, developing video games like Space Invaders, stuff like that, or is a kid and when I learned about business problems with payments and so forth to start matching all these things.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I love what I do today, even with payments and so forth, for personal, when I'm home and all I using like I love chatting with chat to PT.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: And now, jamie, you know, it's incredible how we can exchange ideas.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: That is to know, I asked Germany about.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: I want to pay with cell phone offline with a non Search for a terminal.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Guess what?
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: Jim invented the water and get a patent.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: So it's incredible how you can like exchange ideas with this AI tools today, you know.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: So I really love technology.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: I know that's my.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: My daughter Gets angry with me on the time.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Hey, you cannot stimulate this chat to PT.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: It's gonna dominate the human race, you know, but I know that's my nature.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: No, I like the knowledge.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: I like to acknowledge that sometimes watch movies Netflix sci-fi movies, stuff like that and the only thing I like that is sports related to skiing, and they don't have is no one Brazil that stuff, but I'm never traveling, there is no, I go skiing or I love that.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: Okay, great, great.
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad you shared that.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: So obviously we've covered a lot of ground already talking about the company and what Matera does.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: And then obviously, you know I really appreciate the the time that you spent on pics, so I really want our audience to to get educated on that.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: I think you brought a lot of value to us to us on that topic.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Is there anything else you'd like to go over before we wrap up the show?
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Don't think it's like whatever you do, do with passion.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: I know that it's easy to say a lot of people say this no, but if you don't have passion for what you're doing, you know they're gonna survive, all the problems You're gonna face.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: No, it's gonna happen.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Life is not easy, you know.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: But if I have passion, like first, 10 years of material my total income was 50% of the income before was a employee of a company.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: 10 years getting 50%, that was I was happy, you know.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: So that's what important, and Because it was doing it I like, and there's no money that can pay this, I don't want to be a sad professional.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: A rich, sad professional makes no sense.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: So if you, if you love what you're doing, though, you're gonna survive.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: Learn, listen to.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: If somebody says you're wrong, pay attention.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Probably you're wrong, no, so that's it if you want to make things happen and if you don't want to make things happen, door, you know it's up to you.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: We don't need to have everybody like doing opening companies, founding companies and so forth, but you can just play a band, play guitar or whatever.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Whatever you like, do what what you like.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: That's my wrap up.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's some great advice and a great way to end the show and, and you know, we often talk about people's passions and being successful means different things to different people, but if you have that passion and that hard work, you're gonna be successful.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: So, carlos, I know you have those things.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: I can tell you're very passionate about the technology and about Everything that you do, so I really appreciate you being here.
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: So thanks again for being on the show.
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: I know your time is very valuable, so I want to respect that.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: But again, thank you so much, carlos.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you very much, thank you all guys.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Bye.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: Okay, and to all you listeners out there, I thank you for your time as well, and until the next story.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us this week on the leaders in payments podcast.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Make sure you visit our website at leaders in payments calm, where you can subscribe to the show and where you'll find our show notes.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed listening, please share on your social channels as well.