Latest / Beheaded / The Black Dinner: A Meal to Die For

Transcript

The Black Dinner: A Meal to Die For · Beheaded

0:04
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: This is season six, episode four.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm Megan Moore, and I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: Happy Cyber Monday.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, happy Cyber Monday.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: Even though we're not releasing this another week, that's okay.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: Right now, as we speak, we are celebrating Cyber Monday.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Can't you tell?
0:22
SPEAKER_01: Congratulations, everybody, for your deals.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you're gonna be listening to this a week after.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: So what'd you buy?
0:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we bought some we bought we did, actually.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: We did.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: We actually we finally pulled the trigger.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: We bought new sound equipment.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Woo-hoo hoo hoo!
0:40
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so, so, so much for everyone who helped contribute.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: We're very excited, except it's not coming for a while.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, because like Megan was the one that went to like guitar center and like tested all the new equipment, so she knew exactly what she wanted, and she was like, Oh, I'm gonna get it on Amazon on a deal, on like super.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh, don't say that.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: That makes me feel bad.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm like, I hate myself for buying off Amazon so much.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: I know.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: It's super like we're way too reliant on it as a society.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: I think it's not the best deal.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: But I it's hard to beat because it gets there like tomorrow and it's also super cheap, and it's so hard to not do it.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: I know it came with the whole like set with the arm and the cranks and the clips.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: It was like the whole shebang.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: It did.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: But it it's not one of those like quick next day Amazon things for whatever reason.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: I think it was like back ordered, I don't know.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: It was a really good deal, but it's not coming until like mid-January, so which is a bummer.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: Sorry about that, but we did get it.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: We did, yeah, it's in route.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: The intentions are all there, exactly.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: And one day, I'm like, wow, they sound really good, and it'll be season seven, season eighteen.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: No, five seasons later.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: We'll get it.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: It's it's committed, it's in, we're locked in.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: It's coming.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: The dragons are coming.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: It's like, is that what we're calling them?
1:56
SPEAKER_01: The dragon?
1:57
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna each name our own match, right?
1:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: That's a great idea.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: I was referencing, like, if you've ever seen um South Park making fun of Game of Thrones before they had dragons on the show.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, there was this very funny ongoing joke of like the dragons are coming.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay, the dragons are coming.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Because if we don't see the dragons for like four seasons, exactly or something like that.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um the dragons are coming, everybody.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: The sound equipment is coming.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: We can uh decorate our own mics, yeah, but bedazzle them.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're gonna make them real cute in our own unique way.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: So, did you get anything else for yourself?
2:30
SPEAKER_00: Non-beheaded related.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: I did.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: What'd you get?
2:33
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'm ready to reveal because like oh sorry, I keep rubbing my nose.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: It's not a lot of um, I don't I I I feel like it may not come.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: I ordered it on eBay and I haven't like heard anything about this order for a week.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: I I want to wait until I actually have it in my hands and it's in good condition, and then it maybe I'll share what it is.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: I thought you were gonna talk about the Taylor Swift coffee table books.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I thought you were embarrassing.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: You have a lot of very exciting purchases coming out.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of big purchases, evidently.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: I've had uh we've had the microphones.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I bought myself a little Christmas gift from my husband that I will wrap and put under the tree for myself.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Romantic.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: Does anyone else do that?
3:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, I won't say I do that.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't like get it and use it and then wrap it and just have something to open.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: Is that weird?
3:24
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, there's definitely like when you've been with someone for a few years, you know, you're like no.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Jake and I are having our we'll be together for 17 years.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: That's a weird next month.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: When I say that, that sounds like almost Are you even 17 years old?
3:38
SPEAKER_01: That's insane.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: I I sound so old.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: I know.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think we're at the point where I'm like, can I just get what I want?
3:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: You get what you want, go buy your golf club and I'll wrap it up.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, yeah, you just give each other exactly the link you want anyway, so there's no real like surprise.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: Or you give them like a like five options and they get you two of the five or something.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just like it's hard to surprise somebody you've been with that long.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: And at this point in our lives, like we if we need something, we buy it for ourselves.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't really wait to Christmas to be like, this is what I want.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm an adult, I make money.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: That's like the hard part.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Like, we both make our own incomes and everything.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: And it's like when you get married and I don't know, everything just gets waddled up together.
4:18
SPEAKER_01: It's like, can I just buy it?
4:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, or like put it towards a trip together or a dinner together, you know, something fun.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, and then I got the Taylor Swift book for myself as well.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: Wow, I really did go kind of crazy this weekend.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: Exciting.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's like the nice coffee table book, the official one from Taylor.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: So that was really which is a huge relief to me because as we've said on our episodes, like every uh time one of us has a birthday, the gift that we get each other is like a nice coffee table book.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: And then for Christmas, we'll buy each other kind of like old thrifted novels or books that we find from like antique stores.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: So for years, obviously, I've been trying to look for the perfect Taylor Swift coffee table book.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for trying.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: I I mean, but unfortunately, there hasn't been anything.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, I keep looking at the first one, and they're very corny, or they're small, or they're just like they don't look good.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: They wouldn't look in your house.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: This one's nice, and it's like all the photos from the Ares tour.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: But I I ended up just getting it for myself because I just had my birthday.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna wait till next September for you to go and get it.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, I knew I was gonna get it sooner.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I might as well just get it now.
5:25
SPEAKER_01: And I I really wasn't going to, but I was at Target and they had the big display, and I was like, ooh.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: And I thought I could just go to Target and kind of flip through it and look, but they're all sealed in plastic.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, dang it.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: Of course, they really make you buy it.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: I bought it.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know what's gonna happen now is that your whole house is gonna change to the Taylor Swift thing.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: No, I've already had this conversation with Jake.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: That's not allowed.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm I think I'm at my limit.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: It's deep.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: Deep in tutor history right now.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: It's very anblon.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Like there's a lot of Tower of London stuff happening in my house, which is what my present is that I bought myself.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: But um, I'll reveal more later.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: The only Taylor things I have are some very classy coasters where you don't even really know they're Taylor related.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: Those are cute.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Those are like little LPs, like little records.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're it's like her different variations of her Midnight albums as little coasters.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: I do have one kind of obnoxious picture that's framed of all of her, like a watercolor picture of all of her outfit changes during the concert.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: Kind of cute.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't intending to keep that on the walls in the kitchen, but now it's just there, and here we are.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: So I think after after the book, we decided that's all I can have.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: Until next week.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: Until she comes out with something new, big inflatables or something.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, um, so Thanksgiving, and you had a great holiday.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Tell us.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: So last uh episode I told you guys I was headed to Costa Rica.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: Me and Robbie went down to fish mostly.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we did some inshore fishing and some deep sea fishing, and I am much stronger than I think.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: I caught two giant mahi mahi, which if you've ever deep sea fished, those suckers are like big.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: Never.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: You put up a fight, like it was it was hard.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: I was literally two mahis or just the one mahi.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: Just the one mahi because I'm not that hungry.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: No, it was two mahi mahi.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh Robbie caught one that he probably fought for like 30 minutes and it was 60-pound mahi mahi.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you didn't tell me it was a 30-minute fight.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that sounds exhausting, just hearing about it.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: It was funny because I obviously had my phone out trying to capture the moment that he actually like caught it and brings it on on the boat.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sitting there like, Great job, good job.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: You can do it, you can do it.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: And then like the fish would disappear and I'd like shut off my camera.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Like two minutes later, I'd put it on again.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, here it is.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: Here's the fish.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: Here's the moment.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: Get in it, keep going.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: Oh, how frustrated.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you did it.
7:47
SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: You know the number of people that I told that you were in Puerto Rico and not Costa Rica?
7:52
SPEAKER_00: When she came in my house today, she's like, So remind me.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: Where do we Puerto Rico or Costa Rica?
7:59
SPEAKER_00: I was like, ah, I see the confusion.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm working on my listening skills.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that you tried.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, overall, great trip.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, good food, spent Thanksgiving down there, so very untraditional.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, lots of fish, lots of beach time, very relaxing.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: Did you have fish on Thanksgiving?
8:18
SPEAKER_00: We did.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: We had red snapper for Thanksgiving.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: I was pretty jealous of your like Mai Thai beach pictures at one point.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sounds really nice.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: It was, and I I don't know why I thought it was gonna be chillier there because it's like winter for us now.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: So I expected it to be like rainy and humid, but like cold.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: So I planned to wear all these like long sleeves and yoga pants, and I got there.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: I was like, what am I thinking?
8:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm next to the equator, like it is hot.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: Literally the rainforest.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, but really good stuff.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna post a few pictures of this cool like night hike that we can.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Keep saying that.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: We're waiting.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: I will, you know, I will.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: The pictures are coming.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: The photos are coming.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: The dragons are coming, the mics are coming, the pictures are coming.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: Don't worry, everything's in the works.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: Don't worry.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: It's part of the plan.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Don't worry.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: But I was sending photos to Megan because like we sent we got some cool like reptiles, all poisonous, of course.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: Um but one was the big like spider thing from Harry Potter that they do the three curses on, like the three forbidden curses.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Which I thought was a fake mythical creature spider.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: Our tour guide was like, Have you seen Harry Potter?
9:23
SPEAKER_01: Points to it.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: Do you know of the Harry Potter?
9:25
SPEAKER_00: She's just like, Do you know the Harry Potter bug?
9:26
SPEAKER_00: I was like, Oh, that's it.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: It was real, I don't like that.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: Huge.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how you did that.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: I like we Elizabeth and I were talking at lengths about this, but I am a no on snakes.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm a hard no on boats out in the ocean.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: I would have been miserable on this whole trip.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: You would have enjoyed one thing.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't enjoy it.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and I'm allergic to fish.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: You are.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: I thought about that too.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: Everything you did on this trip, I'm like, that sounds terrible.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: But I'm happy for you guys.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: It sounds like a great time that you you guys had together.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: A good adventure.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: And the first time I've been on a tiny plane that only held 11 people.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's another no for me.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: No tiny planes.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: But these vipers, you were just walking through the forest.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: They could have bit you at any time.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: Robbie was wearing sandals, and our tour guide was like, no, like you can't do that.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: He's like, why?
10:15
SPEAKER_00: She's like, The the vipers, they will bite you and kill you.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: They are poisonous, very poisonous.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: Healthy amount of fear in the trip, but uh a really good time.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: I like the sloth that you saw.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Like that, I'm all down for sloths.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: Sloths were cute.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: Spiders, no, snakes, no, poisonous things, no.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Sloths, yes.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: And dolphins.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: There were good dolphins.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: Dolphins beautiful sea turtles.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: I saw those.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Petted one.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: Really great.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, again, so this isn't gonna get released for a week.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah so, but today big news came out in the history world.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: We have to talk about it.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: I got all excited.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: Like the first thing I woke up to, and you know, you kind of check your messages and whatever.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is everyone buzzing about with the princess in the tower?
10:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: Really cool stuff.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: So um, we've talked about Princess in the Tower before.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: It hasn't been an official execution episode for us, though.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, we talked about um Perkins Warbeck, which he claimed he was one of the lost princes in the tower.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: And was executed for that.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: Go back to season five.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: Was it our season five, episode one?
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Season opener.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: Look at that.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: With a sticker.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, Tracy Borman had a really, really cool special, which, if anybody knows how to find the full show in the US, please tell us.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny, several people were also messaging me today.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Did you figure out how to see it?
11:37
SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, I've just been watching little clips off of YouTube or whatever anyone's posted.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: But like, if anyone has access to this and they want to share, we'd love to see it.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: We won't, we won't say no.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: New information has surfaced, needless to say, and it's a very exciting time.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: And I love this period of time too, because I feel like the first news is like all anyone sees, and then there's ways to interpret it and like you know, things that come about.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: So the next couple weeks are gonna be thrilling.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, it made it into the newspapers, like it's that big of a situation.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: So if in case you live under a rock or you haven't gone in and searched for this information yet, um, Professor Tim Thornton revealed this discovery buried deep into this will that the Capell family, I think their names were, Mary Capell.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: It sounds right.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: Um you know our pronunciation.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, was inheriting the chain of office of Edward V, who I'm not gonna call King Edward V because he technically was never crowned.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: He was still a prince, but anyways, one uh the older of the brothers of the lost princes.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: And she somehow got it all the way from um James Tyrell, Tyrell, Tyrell Tyrell again.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and supposedly James, the rumors go James was in cahoots with King Richard and did the actual deed of killing the taking out the two boys, and the only way he could have ended up with this very personal piece of Edwards was if he was there during final moments and somehow passed it through his family.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: So all of this links to truly believing that King Richard did have James kill them.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Does it actually solidify everything?
13:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, but it's close, like that's pretty cool.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts?
13:33
SPEAKER_00: Well, I was gonna say in stupid reference here, but it reminds me of the show only murderers in the building.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: Where like again, Samuel, like, well, yeah, like having something from someone's like body that only you could really access in their last few moments, it's like it's pretty damning.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, I feel like it's hard to be like, How did you come across this information?
13:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so like the ring from Voldemort to the gaunt's ring, that's like another one of like, well, how'd you get this?
14:01
SPEAKER_01: That's a good example.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, anyways, that was really exciting.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, again, really want to see the full episode, but like I feel like this is hopefully gonna spark even more stuff, and it's just really cool.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: It's a good reminder of why we love history so much, right?
14:16
SPEAKER_01: Because regardless that this took place over 500 years ago, there's still new discoveries.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and we just don't know what else is out there.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Very similar to um the discovery of Thomas Cromwell's Book of Hours.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: Like just buried in the library.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: Some things are just sitting right, I say our faces, like I'm part of the historians also researching and looking at things.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: But some things are just right there and you just don't realize it.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: And everything is just a little piece of evidence.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, and even when we, I don't know if we talked about this on our show, but when we talked to uh Professor Susanna Lipscomb in in real life, um, we were talking about how it's crazy how much is just is is in the hands of private collectors.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: It's like you assume, oh, everything that's been found is now in a museum.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, actually, I think that's just a sliver of it.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, so many of this is maybe buried in someone's like warehouse or family home or whatever.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: Like things are just waiting to be found.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Or in a giant will.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's pretty tedious to have to read through every line, which you don't think you're gonna get anything that fascinating out of it.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: But just slipped in there.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I have Edward V's chain by the way.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay, name dropping much.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we've missed that for five centuries.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's just been sitting there.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: But when someone like Professor Thornton takes the time to actually read through everything, right, you're just like dissecting it.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, but before we get in the evening, I hope you enjoyed your dinner I made for you.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Something I call the black dinner for you.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: Get it?
15:50
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Elizabeth Black.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: We were really vibing off of pretending like we were in a tavern.
15:57
SPEAKER_00: We had just been on a long journey.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: A dark, moody mist kind of lingers outside.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: Some clankering of some pewter ale thingies, clamoring, goblets were clamoring around.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: Is it point?
16:12
SPEAKER_01: You always should have.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: You had good um Game of Thrones music on.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: I did.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: We also should have done like the like um, you know, the sound effects for when you're playing like Dungeons and Dragons and stuff.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Like when I play Catan.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, that's back.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: Background noise.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: Did try to find it.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: Apparently, it's not on Pandora, it's on Spotify, and so it was perfect.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: We had a lovely beef stew.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Beef stew that was in the crock pot all day.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: It's really good.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: The beef is all tender and it fell apart.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: You needed a tiny bit more salt, but that's okay.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: I know for next time.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, we made some roasted potatoes.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: We had anything to do with it.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: We are involved.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh thank you for including me.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: I ate it.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: A good salad because we needed our greens.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: And uh, and then these tiny little baguette things, which was just like garlic and olive oil.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: Some bread to dip into the stew.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: It's tasty.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: So thank you for coming.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here, and thank you for bringing this beautiful bowl statue, which we will get to why that is here.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: We're alluding to a lot.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: Stew dinners, bulls, black dinner.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: Alright.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: So this is a very exciting episode, and it actually is a story that inspired the Red Wedding from the Game of Thrones series.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: So if you know anything about that, and there are some spoilers ahead, we'll tell you when they actually come.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: So if you're like, oh, I haven't seen it yet, don't worry, we'll give you a little or so.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: What have you been doing for the past 10 years?
17:34
SPEAKER_00: First of all, what where have you been?
17:36
SPEAKER_00: How are you a fan of ours and have not seen it?
17:38
SPEAKER_01: Maybe someone who is like a teenager now and they were too young to see Game of Thrones.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: And still people haven't seen it.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: I was that way with Sopranos.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, I was too young when Sopranos came out the first time, so I didn't see it till I was like 30.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: So, like, I get it.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: I get it.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: So we'll try to do spoiler alerts.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, just when we start talking about Game of Thrones, maybe just pass through that.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like fast forward a minute.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna talk about um the beginning of the story, which is the background of the Clan Douglas.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: And the Clan Douglas is an ancient clan in the lowlands of the Scottish country.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: So uh it's a it's a noble house that's been around, gosh, since I think the early 12th and 13th centuries, probably even before.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: And they were one of the most powerful families in Scotland during the late Middle Ages.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: So this family originally they think the name derives from the village of Douglas, which in Old Gaelic, Douglas, which is like dub gleis, if I'm saying that at all correctly, you know us, um, it translates to black or dark stream.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I didn't know that.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: Old Gaelic.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, which is really interesting.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, there's a lot of again, black themes throughout this entire You love this.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: I do.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: When we first, when I was like, we should do the black dinner, you were like, oh.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, can I host this?
18:59
SPEAKER_01: This is like my new persona.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: You found your new identity here.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: I needed I need to dig deeper into the family archives.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm a Douglas somewhere.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, so just so we're a little bit again clear of who they are, where they come from, and a little bit about their coat of arms.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: So we've talked about coat of arms uh and like heraldry and symbolism, specifically with like King Henry VIII's wives in the past.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: But for this one, um, what their kind of family crest looks like is a white shield, and there's a blue stripe that kind of runs along the top of it.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: And within the blue stripe, there's three stars.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: And this is important because we're gonna talk about things that are added to the family crest a little bit later, once they kind of do more deeds throughout history, but that's kind of like what it looks like at the beginning.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: So um the first, I guess, way they really come into prominence, other than just like being a big family that's known throughout their town, is in the Scottish Wars of Independence.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: So this is in the 13th and 14th centuries, and Sir William Douglas, uh uh the Handy, they called him, which I like that term.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: The handy.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm gonna call my husband, Jacob the Handy.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: Jake the Handy.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh, he's the governor of Bearwich upon Tweed, which is such a cute name of a place.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Was it Handy or Hardy?
20:20
SPEAKER_00: I can't read my writing.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I can't read mine either.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: Oh shoot.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: I think it is Hardy.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I could start that part again.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: No, it's okay.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: We'll keep it rolling.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: I do double.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Keep on going.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, I'm truly curious now.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: I think it says Hardy, and I pronounced it handy because of my Rs.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: Um let's look this really quickly here.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: It's it's Sir William Douglas the Hardy.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: But I like Handy too.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: That would have been a good one.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: Jake the Handy.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: Jake the Hardy.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I kind of works too.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're just gonna roll with that.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, so he was uh the governor of again Bearwick upon Tweed.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: I think I might have even said that wrong the first time.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh he was uh at some point captured but then released after he agreed to accept the claim of Edward I of England as the overlord of Scotland.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: So as we've kind of learned from our like William Wallace episodes in season one, this is like the ultimate struggle between Scotland and England, right?
21:26
SPEAKER_00: Like Scotland did not want to be a part of England.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: England kept trying to enforce its will upon Scotland.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: So this is one of the first like ways the Douglas clan gets involved with, I guess, the English like clash.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, so after he is released, he then joins who other than William Wallace.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: We know that name.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: We know that name from season one, episode eight.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: But then he was captured again, taken to England, where he died in 1298 as a prisoner in the Tower of London, the world's most romantic location.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: I get really excited whenever I see any mention.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Of someone being imprisoned in the Tower of London.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: You don't realize how many centuries and how many different eras it saw.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: So when you're like, wow, when you're associating William Wallace also with the Tower of London, I don't know.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: It gets me all excited.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was again the first time where uh the Douglas family has kind of done something of note.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't stop there because there's a lot more history with Douglas Klan throughout the next couple centuries.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: I feel like like just really setting up this stage right now of just understanding how prominent this family was through every part of Scotland's history.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: It just feels like every major event, the Douglases were there.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: The Douglas Klan had something to do with it.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna chug along to the next generation, which would be uh the the guy that Elizabeth just talked about, the Hardy, uh the one who just died in the Tower of London.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: His son is James Douglas.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: So how his father joined forces with William Wallace, James Douglas for joined forces with Robert the Bruce, which is another really big name in Scottish history.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: James Douglas, according to the Scots, his name was the good Sir James or just the good.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: But if you were to ask an English person what his name was, they labeled him, like they labeled him as the black Douglas or just the black.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: Or what was the other one?
23:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, they even called him like the boogeyman.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: Like literally, they had nursery rhymes about like who he was because he did such dark deeds, and it was like, oh, he's gonna come and get you in the night, like James Douglas the the blacke man.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: It's coming for you.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: The way that you would tell kids, like stay in bed, and you know, do it follow all of your rules because otherwise the black is gonna come and get you, the boogeyman.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: Should we pull up the nursery rhyme?
23:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we did find it at one point.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: It was like a hushy, hushy.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: Hushy, hushy.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: Let's look really quick.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: It is right here.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: You want to sing it?
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to sing it, but I'll just kind of do it in a Scottish accent.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: No.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be the worst.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: It looks like you're getting ready to try.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: Um I I I f I felt ambitious for half a sec, but now I don't want to.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: I'll just say hush ye, hush ye, little pet ye.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: Hush ye, hush ye, do not fret ye.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: The back Douglas, the black Douglas shall not get ye.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, it's kind of ominous and creepy.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: So that was the next generation of Douglas.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: So again, according to who you were talking to, he was the good for the Scots, he was the black for the English.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, he he basically like fought alongside Robert the Bruce.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: So much so um he was his deputy.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: They were so close that Robert trusted Douglas, James Douglas, um, and requested that after Robert the Bruce had passed to bring his heart to the Holy Land.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: And Robert the Bruce wanted to do this because he felt that he needed some type of an atonement for murdering what was his name?
25:03
SPEAKER_01: It was like James III of something.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: He murdered someone.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: Actually, what's funny is I just watched a movie.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: I rewatched it, I had seen it before.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: There's a really cool movie on Netflix called The Outlaw King on Netflix.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh and Chris Pine, he plays Robert the Bruce, which is fantastic.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Say less.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, Florence Pugh plays his wife, and they go through like all of this history of the of the wars between again England and Scotland and what Robert the Bruce was fighting for.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: And um, it's anyways, it was just like weird timing because I wasn't even prepping for this episode, and I just like, oh, I'll throw that on in the background, like a nice gory crusader type movie to kind of do some work too in the background.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, ambient shows.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like those kinds of things, the clashing of swords and like some hanging dong and quarterings happening and all that stuff.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: But let's us at peace.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh so he is asked to bring his heart to the holy land.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: Which to be clear, this is the crusade time.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: This is like think full-on knight armor, blood.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the red crosses on the tunics.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and of course, like they were very, um, I guess we could say superstitious, but had a lot of beliefs.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: And things like bringing the heart to the Holy Land would, like, because he felt so guilty over some of the murder and you know, all the crusading and stuff, they truly believe that some of these acts would help with their salvation.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, the atonement.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: The atonement of it all.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but he doesn't make it, does he?
26:34
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't, no.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, he dies in said Holy Land.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is the point where the coat of arms actually changes.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: So, like I alluded to, you had the white shield, the blue stripe, the three uh stars.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: Now they add a big red heart in the blank white space.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: And this is for um King Robert the Bruce's quote unquote bloody heart after Sir Douglas was essentially led to his death by him.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: My mind is going into weird places.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: I didn't plan for this tangent.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Oh, go ahead.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: But isn't it weird the symbol of the heart?
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, where did it come from?
27:10
SPEAKER_01: The cartoon little that's not what a heart looks like.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: But I was just picturing this coat of arms, and that's what they have in the middle.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: It's like a straight up Queen of Hearts style, red.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: I know.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Very you would think it'd be more Valentine's stick than that.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: It's really ugly, to be honest.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm not just the heart of Robert the Bruce.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I'm not a heart girl.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: I don't like heart jewelry and crap.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: I think it's techy.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: I do like the Queen of Hearts kind of stuff.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: Queen of Hearts, I think.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: That's acceptable.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, but kind of is sad too, is James Douglas, he didn't just die naturally during this whole mission of his.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: He ended up having to like go on another fight, and the Moors were coming after them.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: So he actually died on the battlefield during this whole situation, too.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: So just like again, these were hardcore fighters, the Douglas clan.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: They were just always running into some type of violence, I feel like.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, so at this point in 1333, uh, James, who we just talked about, James's youngest brother, becomes the regent of Scotland.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: But after him, there's not really a secured line of succession.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: And the family tree gets a little frayed and like confusing, starts like jutting off in different ways.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: The clan itself is still strong, but there's no clear like leader of the clan until Archibald Douglas, who's the third Earl of Douglas, kind of consolidates the family power and influence.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: And this is when they re-emerge in history again, as again, there's the Douglases, like they're doing bold things.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: So at this point, um, he's defending Edinburgh Castle against Henry IV of England, and the year is 1400.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: I just feel like they're these are talk about some Scottish pride, a lot of Scottish pride.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: They just again, like every moment in history, they just kept popping up.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like poor scum.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, literally.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: It's like William Wallace is there and he's like off to the side.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, here's like King King Robert the Bruce, like, oh, like there's the crusades, like, oh look, King Henry IV, all just colorful characters all throughout like the the history of this clan.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: And another big familiar name that you will recognize coming up.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: So Archibald, who's the one who was fighting off King Henry IV of England.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: So his son, because the generations just keep going on of this clan, his son marries the daughter of King Robert III of Scotland.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: So now they're actually getting ties to royalty, they're married into royalty now.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: His son is the fourth Earl, and he is part of the council of regents at the time for little James I of Scotland when he was too young to be king.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about the acts of regency before.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: How someone's too young, you have the big guy, the big adults make the decisions for them.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: So um now we've got someone from the Douglas clan on the council.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: He ends up in Paris, uh, another military man.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: He commands over 10,000 Scots in Paris.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: Wow as they are fighting off England and they partner up with France.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: He becomes Lieutenant General of Joan of Arc's army.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Lieutenant Dan.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Lieutenant Dan.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Lieutenant, I don't know this guy's name.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: Probably a James or a William or Lucky.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, becomes the Lieutenant Dan for Joan of Arc.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: So another big name and another episode that we did uh referred to season two, episode four.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Oh, perfect.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: Look at all of us tying our history in together.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh so again, at this point in 1400, we now have um a new king on the throne.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: His name is James I.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: So, James I, we're not gonna get like into too much of his background, but what you need to know is that he dies in kind of a very abrupt fashion.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: He's actually assassinated.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: So we were watching this really good video about like how he tried to escape, and he's literally like in his bedchamber and he's like tearing at floorboards trying to find like safe passage, and he ends up finding his way into the sewer.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: But because him and his wife were like big tennis players, I didn't even know it was a thing in the 1400s for sure.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: I think it was like when the concrete little like enclosure, you know, were like ever after.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly, just like ever after.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like racquetball modern day.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, anyway, but they at literally right before this escape had ordered that the sewer be blocked off because they kept losing tennis balls down the sewer.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: The tennis balls were just so important.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: They're so important you can't lose tennis balls.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Because he was so adamant about not losing his tennis balls, right?
31:56
SPEAKER_01: He lost his life over it.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: He couldn't escape from the sewage when these assailants, the rebels were coming in to murder him.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: He couldn't escape out of his own castle.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: And they ended up assassinating him.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: So James I dies before, you know, he's kind of an old king.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: So he leaves the throne to his son, who's only six years old at the time.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: So this is now King James II.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: And King James II, obviously, like we said, is not gonna rule on his own when he's six.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: He needs a regent, he needs somebody to look over him.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: And who is gonna be that regent?
32:32
SPEAKER_00: Another Douglas.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Perfect, because they their name is just they're climbing up the ladders here.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: Um so at this point, um, the fifth Earl of Douglas, he is gonna be the one to be the new regent.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: And at first he's like happy to have this position, right?
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Because he's now like shepherding this young king.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: He could probably gain a lot for his family with being the regent, but he ends up dying a little too early in 1439.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, of I think he he's like he's sick.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: He's probably the first one who didn't die on the battlefield, to be honest.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: How feeble is how I know how weak of him.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: Everyone else is getting their limbs chopped off.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, everyone else is with Joan of Arc, William Wallace, Robert the Bruce.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: He's like, I have a little cold, a little runny nose.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Didn't last very long, unfortunately.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: So now you have a young King James who at this point is about 10 years old, and King's J King James II, uh, the only person who's now kind of in charge of him is the Lord Chancellor, Sir William Crichton.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: This is very important, and this is where our story truly turns into an execution story.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: William Crichton, he was like you just said, he's like the first lord, he's a Scottish nobleman, and he's really protective over the 10-year-old James II.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: And he keeps him in the Edinburgh Castle.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: Almost like a prisoner.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Like it just reminds me, we keep hearing these similar stories of for their own protection.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Again, like the princes in the tower.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: And what about Edward VI with King Henry VIII?
34:10
SPEAKER_01: They were just so afraid of anything happening to them.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: They were really sheltered.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: And he really just ruled his day.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: He told him everything he was gonna do.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: He had a lot of power and he was in his head.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh, he was nice one day though, and said, Hey, little James, how about you invite some friends over?
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Are there a couple friends, maybe, maybe the Douglas clan that you'd want to invite over?
34:36
SPEAKER_01: So uh the fifth Earl was the one who died of fever.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: His son is another William Douglas.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh, he is the sixth Earl of Douglas.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: So they just kind of keep like going on with this Earl thing, right?
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: And William is only 16 years old, but he does have his little brother David.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: David is 12.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: And weren't they cousins to James II as well?
35:00
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: They at this point were cousins.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Everyone's related as someone at this point.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
35:05
SPEAKER_00: And so how excited are you if you're a young 10-year-old James II king who doesn't get out much?
35:12
SPEAKER_00: You're like basically trapped in the Edinburgh Castle all the time, and you're being told, like, hey, sleep over with your cousins.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: And like the cool cousins, the the 12-year-old, yeah, the 12-year-old and the 16-year-old.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: And uh you this all sounds great, right?
35:26
SPEAKER_01: You're like, okay, this is this is nice.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: This is a good situation.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's some other names that I think we can who helped organize this dinner.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: Another one of them being James Douglas, who becomes later on the seventh Earl of Douglas.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: So we've got another Douglas here.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: This in and like Elizabeth and I were talking about this.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: I had to get it out of my mind that this isn't a succession based on um.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: It's not like a direct heir.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: It's not a direct lineage, right?
35:57
SPEAKER_01: So James is older than the current fifth earl, but he is next in line to basically inherit everything.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: This he's older than the sixth earl.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, that's what I meant to say.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: He's old, got too many earls happening.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna call him William.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: William is the sixth Earl.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: He's the 16-year-old.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: The one who's invited over for dinner.
36:19
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: Are you following?
36:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm following.
36:21
SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's a lot of like, it doesn't help they all have similar names.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: They're all James Williams.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: You might have to listen to all of this part twice to understand all of the names involved.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: If you need to rewind and listen, I might need to do the same.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: So just to stick with us here.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: We got this.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, so back to Megan's original point, we'll recap this.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: But this dinner is organized by the Lord Chancellor, Sir William Crichton, who's the regent of Young King James.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: And it's also orchestrated by James Douglas, the seventh Earl Douglas.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: Right?
36:54
SPEAKER_00: He's the one who's going to inherit everything, should anything happen, to young 16-year-old William Douglas.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: And he's his uncle.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: The scheming uncle.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: It's always the scheming uncle.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: Always the scheming uncle.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: So this party happens.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: It's a dinner, right?
37:10
SPEAKER_00: People are eating, drinking, I guess.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: The 10 and 12-year-olds are drinking.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm just getting belligerent.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there's music.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: They do the whole banquet hall situation.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: We're like very stereotypical medieval times banquet.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there were turkey legs.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there were a million turkey legs.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: Lots of turkey legs.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: Turkey legs, mead, you know, I imagine just yeah, various fruits and vegetables, lutes piled around.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: So this is a very celebratory thing until the tone of the evening changes really abruptly.
37:45
SPEAKER_00: And that's why we have this bull statue in front of us.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: Can we talk about the bull statue for this?
37:51
SPEAKER_01: I feel like we need to talk about the bull in the room here.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: There's a bull in the room and we need to address it.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: If you're on YouTube, which I've been posting the YouTube episodes like one week after the podcast.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty good.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: The reason I do that in all frankness, it's because it's imagine having to listen to yourself talk for like an hour and then go back and do it all over again.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's it, it's it doesn't matter who you are, it's always tough to listen to yourself talk.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: I always get like a little cringy, and I just need to give myself like a one-week break to do it all over again and listen to the same episode and re-edit it for the videos.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: Anyways, I always really quick.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: I always do the thing where when I listen to myself, I'm like, God, I hope I say this next.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: And if I'm doing a good job that night and I'm really on it in the episode, yes, I say the thing that I'm like listening back, like, yeah, I nailed it.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: Like I wanted to say that and I did.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: And then when I just don't, and I'm like, oh, I hope I address this and I just don't, I'm like, oh God, she was off, she was having an off night.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: What was she talking about?
38:50
SPEAKER_01: See, I never I'm never critical of what you say, but for myself, I I've I've mentioned this before.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: I have a problem with talking over you.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: I've noticed towards the end of the episode, I get more excited because we're getting to the execution, and I get really like like real really breathy and I talk fast and I just kind of interject every time you want to talk.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: Not a good thing.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: No, it's excitement.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: I'll be listening, I'll be like, Megan, do not open your mouth again.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: Do not oh god, you opened your mouth again.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: Like, shut up.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: You're good.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: Let her talk.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: This is why I always take early life.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: And like I get a moment to speak.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: You will, I shouldn't even share this because now people are really gonna recognize it.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: I do get very animated and excited, and I apologize when I talk too much and you're good.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: I talk over you.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: That's what friends do.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: That's what we're here for.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: Just I get excited when we get to the juice of the story.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: So if you're watching YouTube, long story, YouTube will be up in like a week from when you're listening to this.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: Check out the video because we have this giant bull sitting in front of Elizabeth.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to just describe the bowl?
40:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, let me tell you how this bowl came to be as well.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, you'll give backstory, but I just want to say why it's here tonight.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: So when we were theming this episode, and I was telling Megan, like, hey, for the black dinner, we're gonna have stew, potatoes, like salad, baguette.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, she was like, Oh, that sounds delicious.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: And I was joking with her, and I sent her a link to this like bowl statue.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Unfortunately, this won't arrive on time.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: And she goes, Oh, I have one.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: She's like, I weirdly have a bowl.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have a bowl statue.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: I'll bring it.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, excuse me?
40:31
SPEAKER_01: I was like, why do you have this?
40:33
SPEAKER_01: It's heavy.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: This thing is made out of solid wood.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: Looks like a Heisman trophy.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: Wood carving.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: It's about what 10 inches long, maybe?
40:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 12 inches long.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: It's heavy.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: It's my husband's, it's Jake's.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: He was so protective over this bowl.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: So my husband's in finance.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: He used to have been a stockbroker.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: Jake the handy.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: Jake the handy.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: And he he treated himself to this as I treat myself with Taylor Swift books and other Christmas presents that'll be revealed later.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, he got this as like uh he hit a milestone in his portfolio, and he was very excited about that.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: So he bought this bull because you what you bowl up, you like a bull market?
41:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and when you're in a bull market, it's up because the the bull goes up, and when you're you bear down, you bowl up.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, bear market, bull market.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, that's why I have a giant bull.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: And like if you've ever been to New York City, like Wall Street, there's a giant like bull statue like in the middle of the street.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: This isn't exactly that, but it's very similar.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: And in Frankfurt, Germany, because we had to go and find it.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: And you rub the bowl.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: She made you go find that?
41:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have a picture in front of the bull.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: You didn't tell me that.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: Where do you rub the bull?
41:40
SPEAKER_01: Was it a momentous occasion of my life?
41:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: Remind me, I'll show you a picture of it.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: Wait, where do you rub the bull?
41:47
SPEAKER_01: Wherever you want, I guess.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: There's not like one place, like a horn or like his nose.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: Where do you rub it in New York?
41:54
SPEAKER_01: You rub it.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you do.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm just that.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: I've never rubbed it.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: No, it's always like worn off in the bronze.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: We don't need to get into rubbing the bowl in the body.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
42:07
SPEAKER_01: Anyways.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, but he's very protective over this bowl.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: He gave me very specific instructions on the transportation of it.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: It required pillows in the car.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: He said the horns are frans are fragile.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: But it's in good condition.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: Jake, when you're listening to this, we're taking good care.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: Looks really good.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: Though my dog did not like this bull.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: Like he obviously my dog's met Megan a million times.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: And he's always very skittish.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, he's a shelter pup.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: We adopted him.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: So he's always had a rough.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: He's always skittish when anyone enters who's not me or Robbie.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: But this particular day he sees Megan with this giant bull in her hands and just went nuts.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, he lost his mind.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: He was like growling at it and cowering and growling.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: It was a combination of wanting to attack, but also really afraid to get close to me.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, it's okay, buddy.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: It's just a fake.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: So he does not approve of the bull.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: The bull is a little bit intimidating.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: It's good.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: But there's a reason we have a bull, which brings us back to our story.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: So here we are in this big banquet hall, big feast, drinking mead, all the things, right?
43:13
SPEAKER_00: Tone changes.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: What comes out next on a platter?
43:17
SPEAKER_00: But a severed bullhead.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: Bloody.
43:21
SPEAKER_00: Bloody black bullhead with a ring in its nose.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: Giant nostrils.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Tongue flopped out.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: Maggots are starting to form on it.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: I like this.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: Keep going.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: Kind of smells.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: Kind of stinks.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, and just drops in front of the two young Douglas clan members.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: So William, who's 16, and David, who's 12 years old.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: And in like Scottish lore, Gaelic lore, the black uh like the head of a black bull means death.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: So it's like this omen of death.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden everyone's like, wait, this is no longer a fun celebratory party.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: Like, what does this mean?
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Music stops, the loot players they picked up on it immediately.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: I think if it were us, we would have been like, Oh, I'm not really into bull.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, let's keep dance, dance, let's keep going.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: I would have whispered to my brother and been like, King James likes really weird food.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm not eating that.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: No, they knew immediately this is an omen, and they're telling us a sign that we are not in a safe situation right now.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: And as soon as they make that realization, they're literally dragged out to Castle Hill, which is right next to Edinburgh Castle.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: And this part gets, I wish there was more detail.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: I really do.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: All we know is there was a mock trial or a sham trial, meaning an expedited, very quick, like who knows who was even there, like makeshift trial that was like, uh, yeah, actually, you both are guilty of treason, you're traitors.
44:53
SPEAKER_00: Was there a jury?
44:55
SPEAKER_00: Was there a judge?
44:57
SPEAKER_01: Was there any it had to have been fast?
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: This is also after dinner.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: So right.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: It's late.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, is everyone from the dinner now outside just witnessing this?
45:09
SPEAKER_00: Or some people are like, oh, I'm gonna go to bed now.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: Were people prepared?
45:13
SPEAKER_01: Like, who was in on this where they knew that this was going to happen and they were on standby prepared for this quick trial?
45:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: We don't know how long the trial quote that we're gonna quirk it, the trial even lasted, but it really seemed like an in-out, bada bing, bada boom.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: Not only that, yeah.
45:32
SPEAKER_00: Why are you going because I like that you said bada bing bada boom.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: That's my catchphrase.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: Um this quote trial took place at the execution site at the castle, which is the castle hill you were referring to, kind of like Tower Hill.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: Like Tower Hill is to Tower of London as Castle Hill is to Edinburgh Castle.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: I I might be fantasizing a little bit, but like presumably there could have just been a scaffold there already, like a permanent established scaffold.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: Because that's where executions happen.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Where they did all their beheadings.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: Imagine the terror of being pulled from dinner by guards, and then you're just taken to an execution site.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you're like, oh, by the way, you're a traitor, like get on the block.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: The the like claims of being a traitor were so vague.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know what they were.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: They basically at one point said that they spoke against James II.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: Like they're buddy cousin that they're having a great time with.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: Like you're conspiring against the king, right?
46:33
SPEAKER_00: Because that will always do you in.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: Like you spoke ill against the king, you wish for the king's death, or you're conspiring about the king.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: So, whatever it was, like no evidence, no real trial.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, obviously, this is all just a makeshift quick thing that happens, but it ends with William and David being beheaded on Castle Hill.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: Immediately.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: Immediately.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: And their bodies are just thrown into these shallow, unmarked graves nearby, and like that's the end of them.
47:02
SPEAKER_00: And like, it's not quite the end of the Douglas clan because now you still have the seventh Earl, right?
47:09
SPEAKER_00: So we have James Douglas, seventh Earl Douglas, who is now sitting his hand, like with his hands kind of put together, like, all right, you know, I'm the seventh Earl, I inherit everything from William.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, now this is my clan.
47:23
SPEAKER_00: And he was the one behind it all.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: He was the one that probably orchestrated this.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: We think, allegedly.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: What's also really unnerving is while all of this was happening, the trial, and then they're setting up an immediate execution.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: Little James the Second, the 10-year-old king who was having a great time with his cousins, right, is pleaing, crying, saying, no, don't do this.
47:47
SPEAKER_01: They didn't do anything wrong, which really shows the lack of power he had as the king.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: A 10-year-old boy king.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: A 10-year-old boy king.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:56
SPEAKER_01: It was just it's it's just kind of eerie the whole thing.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: And um I I could almost imagine this is this is basically just murder.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: It really is.
48:08
SPEAKER_00: And there was already, again, assassinations, like there's already a lot of backstabbing within this clan and uh whoever was on the throne at the time in Scotland.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: A lot of blood.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: And this is like the end of our execution part, but this kind of goes on a little bit longer, like in real life, too.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: Not with so much executions, but just the continued backstabbing and the continued like violence.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: So King's Jane Game King James II grows up, right?
48:36
SPEAKER_00: And you would think, oh, like, you know, he's he's probably like feeling a certain way about the death of his cousins, and he's probably like, I don't know, repenting in a certain way or sad about the way they treated them or something.
48:49
SPEAKER_00: No, actually, in his life, he becomes even like he harbors more hatred against the Douglas clan because of James Douglas, the 7th Earl of Douglas, the one who essentially conspired.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: So what does he do?
49:03
SPEAKER_00: He hosts his own quote unquote like black dinner when he's older.
49:07
SPEAKER_00: That's not petty.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this isn't petty, and he invites uh James Douglas, the seventh Earl's son.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: Do you know his name?
49:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, William.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: Was it William Douglas?
49:16
SPEAKER_00: Again, it's another William Douglas.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: So he invites the new William Douglas over, and instead of doing mock trial, beheading, execution kind of thing, he decides I'm just gonna fucking stab him.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: And he personally does the stabbing.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: It's not even like he orders someone to do the dirty work for him.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: King James II of Scotland stabbed this poor boy in the throat 25 times.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of stabs and then once in the chest.
49:47
SPEAKER_01: 26 in the heart, you think.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: In the heart, 26 knife stabs in total.
49:55
SPEAKER_01: This kid, I mean, who knows how if he was innocent, guilty of whatever it was.
50:02
SPEAKER_01: He wasn't even the one who who did all of this.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: James Douglas was the one who started this whole issue.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: And he doesn't go for James, he goes for his son.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: That is cruel.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: Eye for an eye.
50:14
SPEAKER_00: And it reminds me, and we're gonna talk more in the Game of Thrones realm, but before we get into that, like it reminds me of House of Dragon.
50:22
SPEAKER_00: Because in House of Dragon, um, the little kids, the cousins, get in a fight, you know, and one of them like takes out the other one's eye, and the mom then goes that's aggressive.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they get the I haven't seen that episode.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: Their fight, sorry, yeah.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is a spoiler.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: Spoiler alert.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: Spoiler for House of Dragon.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, so one of the little boys' eyes gets taken out, and then the mother goes to the other mother and says, an eye for an eye, like I get your son's eye kind of thing.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: So it's like Game of Thrones is messed up.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: It really is, but it's uh, you know, it's funny because um JRR Martin has even or sorry, yeah.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not so I know I want to say J.R.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: Tolkien uh Martin, he he said that like it like even as disgusting as my writing is in the situations and the scenarios, like history's worse.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: And that's where this where he was inspired by this whole story of the black dinner.
51:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: So what he did in the Game of Thrones series is he did the Red Wedding.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: His version of the Black Dinner.
51:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: The Red Wedding.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the Red Wedding, if again, spoiler alert here, um, but Red Wedding, if you don't know what it is, and if you're not planning to see uh Game of Thrones in the future, it's essentially where Rob Stark, who's like the main character of the Stark family, he breaks a marriage pact with the House Frey.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: So in turn, Lord Walden Frey, like hosts this wedding for his daughter and invites Rob and the rest of the Starks to this wedding, being like, oh, water under the bridge, it's okay that you broke this marriage pact.
51:51
SPEAKER_00: Brink bread together.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, bring bread, like everyone's drinking happy, everything is great.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: Again, tone changes, entire Stark family is massacred.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: Like Rob Stark, his mother, you know, and all of like the men that he came with.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: It's a trap.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: But what's funny going back to the Douglas clan though, no one saw what was coming with the first black dinner with William Douglas and his brother David.
52:16
SPEAKER_01: But to kind of set up and re-reenact and reproduce the same dinner, wouldn't you kind of be on your guard?
52:24
SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, for centuries, if anyone invited me to a dinner, I'd be like, I need protection, I need some type of oath signature.
52:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, not wouldn't even make a difference, I'm sure.
52:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: They were just so violent.
52:37
SPEAKER_01: Everything was killing.
52:40
SPEAKER_00: Before the black dinner, it was kind of this mutual understanding that if you invited someone to your home to like dine with you, it was like implicit that you would be safe.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: Like the host is hosting you, you're going to be here with us.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, nothing bad can happen to you.
52:53
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, that was shot to hell after the black dinner, and then the second black dinner.
52:59
SPEAKER_00: So, again, I don't know why you would ever even leave your house after that point.
53:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, people gotta eat.
53:06
SPEAKER_01: You get invited to a nice dinner, they have some nice wine.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: You're like, there's no bull on the menu, is there?
53:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not gonna happen again.
53:13
SPEAKER_01: I would get original, come on.
53:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, this one's interesting though, but like I said just a little bit ago, I mean, basically this was murder, but they did consider it as a formal, legitimate, legal execution with the two boys, even though they were only 16 and 12.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: And probably because everyone who was like of the privy council who would make that decision was there.
53:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's like it really couldn't have been any more formal unless it was a longer, real trial.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: But they figured, hey, everyone's here, who's gonna decide on it anyway?
53:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, no shame, like no, no remorse whatsoever that these were young boys who really did nothing wrong.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: It was all over power, and James Douglas wanting to get the inheritance and be the seventh earl, and um, and people just really hating the Douglas clan.
54:06
SPEAKER_01: They just really believed that they had too much power and this was how they were gonna do them out.
54:10
SPEAKER_01: But that didn't that wasn't quite the aftermath, that wasn't quite the results.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: They are continued to be a strong family, right?
54:18
SPEAKER_01: Am I wrong in that?
54:19
SPEAKER_00: No, you're right.
54:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, for for generations it was still a good Scottish family.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: Jeez.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: But this did open up all types of war.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I was gonna say, yeah, uh, like for the rest of King James II's like reign.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was essentially littered with civil war at this point, right?
54:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, who can you trust?
54:40
SPEAKER_00: Which clans can you trust?
54:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, you already have the English trying to overtake you, and now you have infighting within the Scottish themselves.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: So I thought this was like a really dark and twisted story.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: The first place where I heard it was on the Greatest British Castles with Dan Jones.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: He does a little segment on it.
55:00
SPEAKER_01: If you um the very first episode is all is all on Edinburgh Castle and the dark history of it.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I love a good reenactment and they bring out the bull and all of that.
55:10
SPEAKER_01: So I love that.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty dark.
55:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I loved researching this one too because there were so many like Game of Thrones uh connections.
55:19
SPEAKER_00: So it's funny because when you do an episode like we did last time, which is like industrial revolution and like really cool character, it's like because it hasn't been represented that much in like modern culture, it's just like here's a few articles.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: But as soon as you get like a Game of Thrones crossover, it's like here's a million articles you could read about the employees.
55:36
SPEAKER_01: They're all back to Game of Thrones.
55:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, I wonder, did did he admit?
55:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm assuming he did, Martin.
55:43
SPEAKER_00: Did he think he came out and was like, I was inspired by this story?
55:46
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: That makes it better.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, unless a journalist lied about that, but that's what I read.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a good one.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you enjoyed it.
55:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you enjoyed your black dinner at the Black House.
55:57
SPEAKER_01: I did enjoy my black dinner with our bull staring at us and my stew and my bread and my Game of Thrones music on in the background.
56:05
SPEAKER_01: And we wore black.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: We did.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, we said we're gonna do that for this season.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm sticking to it.
56:10
SPEAKER_01: Good job.
56:11
SPEAKER_01: Number four.
56:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, Elizabeth, any final words?
56:16
SPEAKER_01: Not this evening.