Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 86: St. Lucia: The Woman Who Lit Christmas

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Ep. 86: St. Lucia: The Woman Who Lit Christmas · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word.
• 0:26
  And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Did you like that? That actually hurt my ears.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: It hurt my my soul, I think.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: La la la la la That's all I know of the song. They've all stopped listening.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: If you're wondering why we've started the day with a bizarre and obscure Christmas song.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: We're talking about Saint Lucie today, which we discussed previously. But actually, we started the day off
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: with coffee. We did. We actually made some mistakes today.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: There's a coffee shop by us that's two towns over. Two towns? One town? Meh. It's a bit.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: It's like fifteen minutes away.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: And turns out today, the winter unlocked itself. And the roads were a little bit dicey. We persisted. We did.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Now, mind you, there is another another place that we could have gone to quite literally three minutes down
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: the road. They're all Starbucks. Yeah. It's just a Starbucks. It's just that the one two towns over is better.
• 1:37
  Much better. The one by us, the line is usually so so long and so so slow, and the coffee is not as good.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: It kinda just sucks overall.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So we did, in fact, brave the winter. We were supposed to record this a solid hour earlier, but we were on the road trying to get back home. Because you hit a point. You can't turn back.
• 1:58
  You're like, I've committed.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: You're on the freeway. What are you gonna do? Yeah. Also, I feel so so so so blessed because I drive a Subaru, and I think I can take out the
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: world in that thing. Which might kill us at some point.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: I'm safe. I drove nothing happened.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: That's true. We were very safe. But one of these days.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: One of these days.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Mind you, up to this point, Brie has totaled two entire cars.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: None of which were my fault.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: But one was the fault of snow.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: And the fact it was a Kia Soul. I mean, that Which is made of I don't know if anybody out there knows this, but Kia Souls are manufactured out of popsicle sticks and paper mache. So any kind of wind that blows by or maybe a stick touches it, it
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: explodes. We literally this was, what, maybe five, six years ago?
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: And we were taking my daughter to preschool, and we we were sliding. We were sliding. And we just barely maybe at five miles an hour bumped the car in front of us. And it was a car. It wasn't an SUV.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: It wasn't a truck. It was a hatchback.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And it totaled her car. They totaled her car.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. The hatchback in front of us had not a scratch.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: No. It was totally fine.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: And in my car, the radiator got busted. Anyways, enough about my woes.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Breeze vehicle problems. The next couple of weeks, we are gonna be talking about some of kind of the forgotten women of Christmas. Last year, around this time of year, we talked about Mary, the mother of Jesus, and her role in the Christmas story and how important it was. So that's a great, I think, set of episodes. I think we did a couple.
• 3:43
  Mhmm. So definitely listen to those as well. That was super fun to learn about. But this year, we're talking about some some religious figures, some non religious figures, some more modern women, some historical women.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Because so often, and we've talked about this again and again, but women's work and contributions kinda go unnoticed. Mhmm. But they're necessary, and they help shape Christmas. Mhmm. They help shape our Christmas traditions.
• 4:13
  And without them, we would not have the same holidays that we do now.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Right. I think the world is so often built off of the backs of women. Mhmm. And we're critical. Like, women are critical to moving everything forward, to moving politics forward, to moving society forward.
• 4:33
  But we forget. We erase them because it's who's in charge. You know? Yeah. And they decide what gets erased.
• 4:39
  So today, we're gonna be talking about Saint Lucie or Santa Lucia.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Santa Lucia. I think it gets worse every time I say it. I think it does.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: So but we're gonna say Saint Lucie because we do not speak Italian, and that feels more comfortable to me.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Although we are Maltese, and that's close. Sure.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: So Saint Lucie lived around the fourth century. And she lived a really interesting life, kind of from the time she was very young. So she grew up in Rome. She was born in Italy. Mhmm.
• 5:16
  And when she was young, she converted to Christianity.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: And she was one of those people that, like, you know I mean, you guys probably know the type of person. They become a Christian, and they're just so excited about it.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: It I think there's a term for it, but, like, the Christian fire spark. Don't know. Where all of a sudden now you that's your entire personality. Which people like Alyssa and I who grew up in the church, we didn't really have that experience. But like, new Christians will often tell you there's a sudden change where it does become your whole personality.
• 5:54
  Right. And that definitely happened to her where she wanted her Christianity to shine in the darkness. Right.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: And in this case because we all also know those annoying Christians that, like, wanna shove their faith in your face. Mhmm. In this case, we're not really talking about that. Mhmm. She just wanted to kinda show the love of God through her life.
• 6:15
  So when she was very young, she made a commitment to god that she was going to remain pure, that she was gonna stay a virgin her whole life.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: She was dedicating her life to god, and that's just how it
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: was gonna be. And her mom was like, no.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Because that would mean that she wasn't going to get married and that she was gonna live in service to the church, but to a church that was not the same church as her neighbors. You know?
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. And her mom was like, this is okay for you right now. Mhmm. But I can see in your future, this is not gonna be what you want. So I'm gonna do what I want with you anyways because you're my daughter.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Right. So her mom essentially and I think this was a valid concern for her, was saying that women in this era, it's hard for them to get jobs. It's hard for them to exist on their own.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: But also that faith Mhmm. Because it's not the faith of Rome. You're gonna be persecuted. Things are gonna be hard for you Mhmm.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Because of that. Right? So her parents betrothed her to a man from he's described as a man from a pagan family. I'm not exactly sure what that would have meant at this time. But he was from a wealthy family.
• 7:27
  Mhmm. He, in theory, could, you know, take care of her and whatever. Mhmm. So she kind of said, like, whatever, I guess, and was able to push the marriage off for years and years and just kind of kept him in the wings. He just sort of existed out there.
• 7:46
  But she that was not what she wanted for her life.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: And Brie and I talked a little bit about this this concept of staying pure, you know, that was such a thing
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: In the early church. And if you read Beth Allison Barr's book, I can't remember if it's in
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: It's in the making of biblical womanhood.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Okay. So she talks about how women of the early church often got power in the church, got strength in the church through their virginity.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Because they were seen as I don't wanna say less feminine, but it it gave them more status and more power
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: To not be tied to a man in that way.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Right. They weren't under the control of any particular man. Mhmm. And so while we're not sitting here trying to shame anybody, like, oh, look at her. She's so pure or whatever.
• 8:38
  That's not what we're doing. What we're saying is for her, this allowed her to take control of her life. Mhmm. This allowed her to say, I'm going to do what I believe I'm supposed to do, what God called me to do. So I'm gonna take control here, control in this situation.
• 8:53
  And so she spent many a year trying to convince her mother not to make her marry this dude.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: And at one point so her mother was having some health issues, things like that. She said, okay, mom. Let's travel. We're gonna travel to this site of this particular saint. We're gonna pray to this saint, and hopefully you'll be healed.
• 9:15
  And if you're healed, then that means that my religion is true, is valid, is whatever. Mhmm.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: And then you're not gonna make me marry
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: this guy. Right? Little ulterior motive there. Small. So they did.
• 9:30
  Her mother was healed. It was a miracle. And her mother agreed to not make her marry this man. But they didn't really inform him.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. He still thought, no, this is gonna happen. Just not sure when, but no, this is happening.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Now you have to assume not the brightest because it's been years. But okay, whatever. So Saint Lucie wanted to be generous. That was part of what she believed her faith was, was to be generous in the way that Jesus was generous. Mhmm.
• 10:02
  And so the resources that she had, she did come from a wealthy family. And the resources that she had was her dowry. Mhmm. If you don't know what that is, that's essentially an amount of money that a bride's family used to give, and in some cultures still does give, to the groom when they get married. It kind of feels like we're paying you to take our daughter.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. But really, it it was meant to ensure that she was taken care of Right. In some way. Right.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: But often what happened was the husband would just sort of use that for whatever he felt like.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: So she took that dowry because her mother gave her access to it now and spent it on feeding
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: the poor. And coming right off the heels of one of our episodes called Feeding the People. Mhmm. This, I feel like, is so meaningful. Right.
• 10:52
  She spent her resources and her time nourishing God's people.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: In a time where there was famine and there was hunger.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So what was happening at this time was essentially the leaders of Rome had outlawed Christianity. Mhmm. So she was taking her life into her own hands just by being a Christian. In The US, you hear so often like, oh, there's a war on Christianity, whatever.
• 11:18
  I think that's total crap. But here, for Saint Lucie, there was a war on her and her faith. And so the Christians of the area were they had gone underground. They're
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: in hiding. Yeah.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: They're the mole people. They had gone, and they were living in the catacombs beneath the city, which have you guys ever watched videos on the catacombs? You're really hung up on that lately. She's really
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: around the catacombs anytime she gets the opportunity. I'm fascinated.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Watch videos on it. It's all over YouTube. I love it.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: They are very interesting.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: But, anyways, so the Christians are that's where they're living. That's where they've found some level of safety. And so she, every night, would take a candle. Or as legend goes, she would wear a crown of candles, which might be where you recognize her from. Mhmm.
• 12:07
  She would have a crown of candles on her head, which feels like a bad idea. I'm gonna be fully honest with you.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: But it was to keep her arms free so she could carry more food.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Right. And she would go down into the catacombs and deliver food and aid and whatever she could to these people living down there.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: So eventually, her really, really dumb fiance figures it out. He catches on that, oh, hey. She's not gonna marry me. He hears about her giving away her dowry. Mhmm.
• 12:36
  And that pissed him right off. Yeah. Because he felt entitled to that money. He felt entitled to her.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Well, in that time, he felt like he owned her. Right. So she's spending my money now.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Even though it was never it was never his to begin with. She hadn't actually married him. So it was not his. It was hers, her family's to do with as they wished.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: But he got a real, real mad. And so he went to the authorities and said, hey, she's a Christian. And that's all they needed to know. Mhmm. They found out that she was a Christian.
• 13:14
  And then through whether they followed her, you know, whatever happened at that point, They found out that she was giving food to the other Christians. So she's starting like this network. Right?
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: So she goes to trial. And they say, all right. All you have to do to be forgiven. Because remember, she's from a rich family.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: And that rings true then and now. Yeah. Those from wealth are often easily forgiven.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Whereas people from poverty are often not. And she's from a wealthy family. They're like, all you gotta do is go pray to this whatever, this saint or from another religion. And you will be forgiven.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: And this happens time and time again throughout the bible and throughout history. Think like VeggieTales when they have the chocolate bunny
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: and forget the real story.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: No. I yeah. No. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. Who?
• 14:09
  But they're like, bow down to the chocolate bunny and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego say no. Right. And so she says no. Mhmm.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: And they're like, alright. Well, if that's your if that's the stance you wanna take. So they decide they're gonna kill her. That she's she's done for. Mhmm.
• 14:28
  And the legend goes that they tried many ways to kill her. They I believe they tried to burn her.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: She was immovable. They tried to
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: to drag her off, essentially.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: And God made her unmovable.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Right. They also tried to burn her. She would not burn. The story goes that they plucked out her eyes. There's actually some variations on the story.
• 14:54
  So some say that that the Roman authorities plucked out her eyes. Others say that she plucked out her own eyes so that she wouldn't be because they were gonna send her into prostitution. That was one of the one of the options for punishment. And so that way, if she didn't have eyes, I guess, she'd be less appealing. I I don't know.
• 15:12
  That was the idea. I think the likelihood is that they did it to her and Mhmm. You know. And so oftentimes when you see her pictured because she is a saint in the Catholic church. So oftentimes when you see her pictured, she's holding her eyeballs on, like, a platter.
• 15:27
  Mhmm. And it is gruesome.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Yes. She's the patron saint of, like, eye healing. Yeah. So people will pray to her if they have any issues with their eyes.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Right. And so eventually, they were able to kill her. I think they stabbed her in the neck was her final blow. And so she was martyred. She became a saint to the Catholic church.
• 15:50
  And while she isn't a part of our Christmas traditions here in the the Western Hemisphere in The United States, she's not someone that I really ever heard about necessarily.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: She's someone that I recognize but didn't know anything about. So the iconic crown of candles Mhmm. And the procession that you'll see a lot of churches do, they'll have one girl with the crown of candles and then a bunch of other kids in, like, white robes
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Following her in a procession
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: At church, singing the, like, Santa Lucia song.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I actually remember. So when we were kids, we would go to Disney. Are you shocked? And that was when, like, pin trading became a thing. If you've ever been to Disney, they have these little pins.
• 16:32
  You can trade them with the cast members or different things. Mhmm. And they had Winnie the Pooh dressed as Santa from all kinds of different countries. And so I was collecting those. And I remember the one from one of the countries, and I'm not it was a Scandinavian country, but I'm not sure which, had a crown of candles.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Like, that's burned into my memory.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, appropriate because it's candles.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: So she is very important to, especially, Scandinavian cultures and their Christmas traditions. So that's
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: where you're gonna hear about her a lot. So think how Santa Claus brings toys to the people. She's bringing food and feeding the people. Right.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Now her name, Lucia, actually means light.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: So oftentimes, she is part of the Advent season. Her festival day is the first day of Advent. Mhmm. And it's kind of I I saw a really good comparison of, like, Jesus brought life and she brought the light. Mhmm.
• 17:30
  So she kind of, like, lit up this space. Also, her so her festival is on December 13. That's the beginning of Advent. And it's also usually based on older calendars, but usually, it is the winter solstice. Mhmm.
• 17:46
  So that means it's the day of the year that has the least amount of light.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Everything's getting darker, and it's awful.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Oh, yeah. Sun for us sets at, like, 03:00.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. In Michigan. It's terrible. It's awful. But that's the darkest day of the year.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: And so you've got this bringer of light. Mhmm. Who took her faith and made it real. Who took her faith and made it important. Who took her faith and didn't just say, I go to church on Sundays or I read my bible fifteen minutes every day and that makes me a Christian.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: But who looked at who Jesus was and said, I am going to be the hands and feet of Jesus because he's not here to do it anymore. Mhmm.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: That's who she was. And it's not just actual physical light. It's God's light. Showing the people that God chose that he loves them. Mhmm.
• 18:44
  And here's a way that she was able to do that. She was able to feed the people. She was able to aid the people.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. And I think too, we've talked about this before, but as Protestants nowadays, we often like to forget about the saints, like the Catholic saints. But that's our history. Mhmm. Protestantism broke from the Catholic church.
• 19:11
  So our history all funnels into the same place.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Pre Church of England, you know? And so we have to remember that while, yes, Protestants don't usually pray to the saints the same way that the Catholic faith does, These are still really important figures that we can't just let go of. That we can't just forget.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Something that we also have talked about before is like a workspace faith. That's hard to say. Whereas the Catholics feel like you have to in some way earn your way into heaven. Protestants feel like Jesus died on the cross and that's the only way you can get into heaven is believing that. But a lot of times, what I see in my faith is that people forget about the works.
• 20:00
  Mhmm. You still have to be the hands and feet of Jesus. Mhmm. Can you earn your way into heaven? No, I don't think so.
• 20:08
  But I think Jesus is gonna look at what you did Mhmm. Here on this earth and say, did you help my people? Were you my hands and feet? And if you can't answer that, I think that's gonna be a little bit of a problem for him.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: I actually I watched this guy on TikTok, and he used to be a pastor. He is now an atheist. So take this with whatever grains of salt you want. But he says that Christians today don't follow the teachings of Jesus. They follow the teachings of Paul.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Because when Paul was asked, how can I get to heaven? He essentially said, like, believe in Jesus. Believe that he was crucified. Believe that he died to save you from your sins, etcetera, etcetera. And that's how you make your way to heaven.
• 20:57
  When Jesus was asked that same question, he said, follow my commandments. And that's what he said. There wasn't, like, extra other stuff. It was follow my commandments. And what is God's greatest commandment?
• 21:10
  To love God and love others. Yeah. So if you're following that, then you're doing what Jesus asked you to do. If you've simply said the sinner's prayer and are assuming that that's good enough, you're following Paul. And that to me is a risk I don't really
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: wanna take. And I don't
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: wanna sit here and be like, oh, well, you know, you're gonna lose your salvation, etcetera, etcetera, because I understand that that's a lot of the foundations of our faith. But if you aren't following God's command to love others, to make others feel safe in your presence, I think you're running some risks there. You're living life on the edge.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. One of the songs that and people joke and think that I don't know any Christian songs. I know a wealth of songs.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: You know every song I've ever heard.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: But one of the songs I think of when I think of Lucy and her name being light is, this little light of mine. I'm gonna let it shine and like, hide it under a bushel. No. I think a lot of Christians today spend a lot of time hiding their light under a bushel. Or snuffing it out all the way.
• 22:19
  Or forgetting what that light means. The Bible says, they'll know you by your fruit. Mhmm. They'll know you by your light. What does that light look like?
• 22:29
  If my light is spent hating on the people around me, or pointing out their sins, or anything wrong about them, anything other than love, that's a problem. Love is light. Mhmm. So how do we show our love? By helping each other.
• 22:47
  She showed it by feeding her people.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: How can we show it?
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: I think too, when Protestants like to pull our history apart from Catholic church and we lose this, a lot of times what we see in our Protestant history is like the fire and brimstone pastors of old. Mhmm. We still have them for sure. But the ones that stood up there and said, you're going to hell if you don't believe in Jesus.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: In a slightly southern accent, like a good old boy.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: And that was the message. It wasn't Jesus loves you. It was do this or go to hell. You know? And when that's your history, it does become easier not to love people.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: If that's what you believe the church used to be and that's traditional values as fire and brimstone and hate, then maybe that's okay. Right? If that's the history of my religion, maybe that's okay. But when you look further back and you find people like Saint Lucie and other people that we'll talk about and people we've already talked about, when you find those people and you say, oh, wait. The whole history of my religion wasn't fire and brimstone.
• 23:56
  The history of my religion was love and feeding people.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Maybe I should emulate that. And now you can look at Saint Lucie and say, okay, well, where did she get that example? From Jesus. Oh, maybe I should do that. Maybe that's my faith.
• 24:15
  So we have to look at our history. History is so important. But you can't just look to the nineteen fifties. You can't just look to the early US Christian church, which so many of us are doing Mhmm. And witch hunts and all the things, you know.
• 24:29
  Look further back and find the people who loved. Mhmm. Because they're there. There's tons of them. You just have to choose to focus on them.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: And maybe there's a reason why she's the patron saint of eyes. Right? She's telling people to open their eyes. Take a look around you.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: So part of her Christmas tradition, Brie touched on this a little bit, but one of the things that often happens in Scandinavian churches especially, but you'll see this, I think, in many churches, is that they'll have a procession. Sometimes it's a town will have a procession. Sometimes it's a church that will have a procession. And a young girl, it's often the eldest daughter in a family, they'll dress her up in, like, a pretty white robe because virginity, I guess. And a crown of candles.
• 25:19
  I'm hoping electric candles.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: It does say in ChatGPT that in modern days, battery operated ones.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: That feels like a better decision. Yeah.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: You know, we don't wanna light our children on fire.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Just as a preference.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Not today.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: And so that that young girl will lead a procession of other children who are also in white robes down the aisleway or down the city streets and kind of start off the season of Advent.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: She has a feast day associated with that too because she was known for feeding the people. There's certain foods that are associated with her. There's a special S shaped pastry that they call, like, the Lucy bun Uh-huh. Which is filled with raisins and that kind of thing. But
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: In theory, I would love to make that and put that on our TikTok and stuff. In practicality, I'm I'm sorry.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: That's not about to happen, guys. No. I like, Olyssa's really good at making slice and bake cookies. Not that we're not good at baking other cookies. It's just that we're painfully lazy.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: I just can't be bothered. No. I bought okay. So I try and stock up on butter and things, like, for Christmas baking ahead of time because it'll go on sale and I stick it in the freezer or whatever. I have, like, 10 boxes of butter in the freezer.
• 26:36
  Am I about to make any Christmas cookies? No. I am not. Not one singular batch.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: I used to love baking. And now I love Netflix. And I don't know how to do anything else.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: There were a couple of years there where I got really into, like, baking and candy making and stuff like that around Christmas. And the last couple of years, I've hated it. And I'm like, why do I hate this?
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: And it's because the first couple years I did it, I had been laid off of two jobs, like, right before Christmas.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Happy Christmas. Right?
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: And so I I had nothing else to do. I needed something to, like, you know, tamp down the anxiety. Mhmm. And so I baked and I made candy. And that's not the case now.
• 27:22
  I have a normal job, and I can't be bothered.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: No. So on that note.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I would love it if you guys if you want to, like, make this as part of your Christmas tradition, how cool it is to honor a woman in this way Mhmm. And to say she was an important part of our holidays, our holiday tradition.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: I think you might see echoes of that in, like, our traditional Nandanam churches or Protestant churches, where they take a candle Mhmm. And they start lighting it. Yeah. You pass it to your neighbor, and they all light the candles. Mhmm.
• 27:59
  Maybe that's from her, and we just don't know. Yeah. That's a really good point. I'm really full of that.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: We used to do that at one of our churches, like, at the Christmas Eve service.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Was it entirely safe? No.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: But we sure did it. They trusted us with fire.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: And, yeah, they would like, you'd pass the light on to the next person.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: And how symbolic of, like, passing the light. Me giving you light takes nothing from me. Me sharing the light of Jesus with you doesn't take anything from me. Mhmm. But it does change your whole world.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: And think of who we're following. Right? Like you said, it's not Paul. We're celebrating the birth of Jesus and Jesus' life and his light, and let's share that. I think Christians are, especially what we see in
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: The US Christian church today, it's a very selfish faith. It's very much, well, I earned this, my money, my food, my family, my house, whatever.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Very family oriented. Just like take care of you and your family, and that's it.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. But not, like, that well. Like, the dad doesn't really have
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: to pay attention to the children,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: you know, whatever. Yeah. But, yeah, it's very nuclear family based and very selfish. And yet Jesus never said that. Jesus never said your nuclear family is the most important thing.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Mm-mm.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: I reposted a video, I think, to our Instagram the other day about how women are told and this is something that came from Paul where the Bible says something along the lines of, like, women are saved through childbearing. Now we have talked a lot about the teachings of Paul and how it's misinterpreted and things like that. So I'm not gonna necessarily go why this is misinterpreted. You can certainly look that up. I would encourage you to do so.
• 29:48
  But when you tell women you are saved through childbearing, that's the only important thing you will ever do with your life is bear and raise these kids, you forget the thing that Jesus said. Because Paul might have said that, but Jesus said, go out and make disciples of all nations. Your greatest command is to love God and love others. Jesus said very little about the nuclear family.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: Because also look at Jesus' life. Mhmm. Jesus was unmarried. Mhmm. And we like to pretend that he was.
• 30:23
  There are some people who like to say that he was married to Mary Magdalene because it helps them make sense in their head of nuclear family. Mhmm. And that being the most important thing. And if Jesus wasn't married, what does that mean for me? But there's no proof that he was married to her.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. They say the same thing about Paul, that Paul may have been married. Mhmm. And yet the teachings of Paul very clearly show that he wasn't.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. But also, what does that say to women if you are saved through childbearing? Why wouldn't he make all women be able to have children? Mhmm. There's a good percentage of women who are unable Mhmm.
• 31:03
  To have children. There's a good percentage of women who don't want to have children. There's a good percentage of women who should not have children.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: And let's look at, again, the Catholic faith. At women who dedicate their lives to
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: God. Mhmm.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: Nuns, women who lead in the church. Biblical women. This Saint Lucy, many of the saints who choose to dedicate their lives to God. Mhmm. Now remember that Paul may have said you're saved through childbearing.
• 31:39
  But then on the flip side, Paul also said, be single like me
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: If at all you can help it. And a, he didn't say that just to men.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: But b, even if he had said it just to men, that kind of screws the women over. Because if all the men are gonna be single, unless the women are marrying each other, which, you know, I guess, live your life, but then you can't have kids.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: There's some things have to happen for Let's children to come into the chat about the birds and the bees just real quick. That won't get us flagged at all.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: So you have to put all these things together and ask the bigger question.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: What did Jesus say?
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: What did Jesus say? And Jesus doesn't say a whole lot. It's like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Read through those.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. What did Jesus say? But also look through all of the different translations and dig into the history of, okay, what did the original translations say and what does that mean? Mhmm. And throughout history, what have we changed about that Mhmm.
• 32:41
  To suit our agenda? I think
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: women around this time of the year are maybe even more forgotten than other times. And we talked about this in our last episode as well. But women take the brunt of holidays. They bake the meals. They make the meals.
• 33:03
  And they bake the meals. They buy and wrap the gifts for everyone. The expectation is often, not that they will just get the gifts for their nuclear family, but for, like, their in laws and the lady down the street. And they'll buy the things for donations at the church and whatever. They decorate.
• 33:23
  They do bake the cookies. They do all of the things. They plan everything.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: And we see this in our own family. We see this in our own spaces where the women are expected to handle everything. Not just making the meal, but then cleaning up after the meal and cleaning the house prior to everyone coming over.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Or keeping things magical for the kids, keeping their holiday traditions alive, their holiday spirits alive.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Yep. And yet, despite the fact that they take on all of it, that they take on everything. You see the man stand up and he says the prayer for the big meal that she has made. You see the man stand up and carve the turkey that she made and take all of the credit, all of that, like, those big moments that someone is gonna notice and say, oh, great job. Great prayer.
• 34:20
  You must be so holy. Great job carving the turkey. You did such a wonderful job. What a great meal. He takes those moments, and she is expected to sit in the background.
• 34:32
  Even modern day. Even today when women are also in the career field, most women today are not stay at home moms. It's just the reality.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: It's very difficult in today's financial state to have one parent that's not doing some kind of work outside the home. Yeah.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: And so often she does have that other job. She is working outside the home, whether it's part time or full time. And yet, despite the fact that they're both putting in the same amount of work labor, she has to come home and take care of all of this while he watches the football game or watches the parade or whatever. And that's the expectation. And I think we get that expectation because of the way that the church structures male leadership.
• 35:25
  What they
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: say about submission is that a husband should love the woman or his wife the way that Christ loved the church. But if you're looking at the church for an example, you're right. The way that leadership is demonstrated is the man is the pastor and he's the lead. And all of the piddly little jobs that they feel like are unimportant, even though they're what keep the church running Mhmm. Are given to the women.
• 35:59
  The secretaries, the Sunday school teachers
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Children's ministry workers. Yeah.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Anything like that that men feel like is below them. Mhmm. Because it doesn't have enough glory and power
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: assigned to it. But then again, what did Jesus say? Mhmm. Leadership of any kind and I believe that leadership should be co lead in in a marriage, in any relationship like that. But Jesus said servant leadership.
• 36:28
  Mhmm. He said, if you're going to lead, you have to serve. Not only did he say it, he demonstrated it. He showed us what that looked like. And so this idea that, like, in a traditional household, the man leads and yet sits on his butt and doesn't do anything and lets her handle everything and says, I would rather she do it.
• 36:53
  That is not representative of what Jesus asked of a leader. Now, again, I don't believe that the man should be the sole leader. But if that's the point you wanna make, that the man should be the leader, then he's a pretty poor leader. If he's sitting on the couch doing nothing while she handles this all both physically and emotionally.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: A good leader knows the inner workings of everything. Mhmm. Right? Knowing your household, what does that look like? Maybe it's as simple as like knowing how you guys do the laundry.
• 37:27
  Mhmm. Or meal planning or whatever that is for your family. Like a leader should know the inner workings of that.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. And if we're looking at Jesus for Jesus' example of a leader, then the women are leading. Mhmm. The women are the servant leaders. Like, in in holidays, looking at Saint Lucie, that is servant leadership.
• 37:53
  That is what Jesus said good leadership looks like. And she does know all the inner workings of everything.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe not every woman. But most women know how everything in their home functions. If he dies tomorrow, she's gonna be okay because she knows where the washer and dryer are. She knows where the soap goes, you know.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: You can also even look like statistically, women who lose their husbands, and I'm not sure this statistic, but they live a certain percentage longer
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Than men who lose their wives do.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Because men struggle. Men don't know. They don't know where the soap goes. They don't know how to turn on the oven sometimes.
• 38:37
  And I think often that is older generations.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: But I am seeing that rotate back.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: As you see young men attach themselves to this, like, conservative ideology where I wanna I want a conservative wife. I want a submissive wife.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Well, if you see that in, like, specifically in The US, like, leadership is saying that that's what is good and that's what you should be doing. All these young men are saying, oh, yeah. No. I want a trad wife. Mhmm.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah. I mean, in theory, if you're like, can I have a maid?
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Can I have a housekeeper?
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Right. That sounds okay, I guess, if if you really just don't care about the other person as a human. Mhmm. If you don't value them at the same level you value yourself.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: This is off topic, but I heard a story the other day about now they were an older couple, but the man was talking to someone he knew about getting a dishwasher. They didn't have a dishwasher in their home. And the guy's friend was like, why don't you get a dishwasher? Everybody has a dishwasher. And he goes, why would I get a dishwasher?
• 39:45
  I married one. Mhmm. And that's how women are looked at Right. From these type of men is that they're dishwashers.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: They're cooks. They're maids. They're prostitutes. They're not people.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Right. And Saint Lucie took control of her life. Now I'm not saying you need to take control of your life in the same way that she did.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Pluck out your own eyes.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: But she looked at her life and she said, what can I do to live life the way that God asked me to live it? Mhmm. Here's the path I'm gonna take. I'm gonna start today, and I am gonna do everything that I can do to live life the way God asked me to do. Now note that none of that included marriage or children.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: That didn't include any of that.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: But yet she is known throughout history. Mhmm.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: She is remembered because she showed Jesus. She was not saved through childbearing. Right.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: She was saved through Jesus. Right.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: And through the way that she lived her life, the legend that she became.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: That's who we're supposed to be. That's who we've been asked to be. So women out there who are being told, this is all you are. You were built for this. You were built to wash dishes.
• 41:08
  You were built to make the meal. You were built to keep the house clean, and that's all you will ever be. Don't aspire to more. Jesus told you to aspire to more. And not only did Jesus tell you to aspire for more, but women of history, the people who are your ancestry like, I love to look at the women of history and be like, that's my legacy.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: That's where I come from. We are the daughters of women like this. Maybe not literally because you shouldn't have kids, but you get the point. Mhmm. They are our legacy.
• 41:45
  Women like Saint Lucie, women like Deborah, like Holda, women that we'll talk about in the next couple of weeks, women that we've talked about in the past, women like Beth Allison Barr. We are the daughters of these people. We are their legacy. They have shown us where to go, and they took that example from Jesus.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. And to the women out there who are in the home, and they do find fulfillment in the kitchen or wherever it is, I'm not trying to diminish what you are doing. Mhmm. I'm trying to uplift it even more. Mhmm.
• 42:25
  Look how much value you have. Look how much you bring to this family. You're amazing. Mhmm.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, I think the biggest message is that we support women's choices. Sometimes that choice means working in a career. Sometimes that choice means working in the home. Sometimes that means having kids. Sometimes it means not having kids.
• 42:50
  Sometimes it means not getting married. Sometimes it means getting married. Sometimes it means being a pastor. But whatever choice you make, we are here to support those choices and your ability to make those choices for yourself. But regardless of what choice you make, remember your highest calling from Jesus.
• 43:11
  Your highest calling, whether you have kids or don't have them, is not to raise your children. Your highest calling is to love others, to go out into the world and make disciples, to go out into the world and show the love of God. That's your highest calling. And if you stay in your home and the only people that you show the love of God to are your 2.5 children and your husband, You have not fulfilled your calling. You have not done what's been asked of you.
• 43:43
  Now do I think god will honor the fact that you did raise your kids in love, that you did show the love of God to your Absolutely, I do. Absolutely, I do. But I also think he'll be a little sad.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Because he's gonna say, look how many examples I gave you. Myself is one of them. Look at Beth Allison Barr. Look at Junia.
• 44:09
  Look at Deborah. Look at JL. Look at these examples that I gave you, and I told you that this is what biblical womanhood looks like.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. And look how much more you can do. Look how much bigger life can be. And that's not even just like, oh, I wanna follow what god told me to do, so I'm gonna do one more exhausting thing. I think women often have so much on them that they just don't feel that they can take on anymore.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: But I can't tell you the satisfaction that it brings to me as a person, me as a Christian, when I know that someone else feels safe around me.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: When I know that I've shown them the love of God. It's not exhausting. Because it I'm not saying like, okay. Now go and attack some people on the street corner.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: I am. Go do it. Don't do that. Tent peg. Don't do that.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: What I'm saying is that God will bring people into your life. God will put people in your path and say, this one. This one. I want you to pay attention to this one. Yep.
• 45:17
  Show my love to them. And that could be that can come in many forms. I'm not about to tell you how God's gonna do that in your life. But it can come in many forms. And when he does, it is fulfilling.
• 45:30
  It can be tiring too because it can take some work. But at the end of the day, it is fulfilling to me because it's it is my purpose. My purpose is to show the love of God. And so when I do that, I'm not like mentally drained and I want to die. I'm like, alright.
• 45:48
  Let's go. And that's coming from a very introverted human. Because it's what I was it's what I was built for.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: And trust and believe that God will take it. God will give you the words to say. He'll give you the actions to make to show his love to them. Mhmm. It's not just on you.
• 46:13
  You're not alone. But you do have to take the steps. You have to take action. Mhmm.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: Brie and I recently heard someone that we love very much say in regards to housework, this is what I was made for.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: And it broke my heart. And I think Brie's too, we talked about this. My immediate response was, you were made for so much more than this. And I didn't mean to diminish everything that she has dedicated her life to. What I meant was, look at all the things you've done.
• 46:51
  Mhmm. You are a leader. You are a woman that other people aspire to be. You're amazing. You were not born to just wash a dish.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. And what does that do to who you are as a person when you say, God made me? Because somewhere even if even if it's being said just sort of as a joke or as a one off or whatever, there's a part of you that believes that. God made me to wash dishes. God made me to vacuum the house to have the babies.
• 47:23
  How does it change who you are instead of saying that, instead of believing that about yourself to say, God made me to love others.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: God made me to spread his word. What does that say? What does that do to you? It empowers you. It makes you someone different.
• 47:46
  Mhmm. It makes you someone loving. It makes you someone others want to be. You know?
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. And I think that's what Alyssa and I are doing, and that's what we feel called to do, is to empower those women who feel like they were not born for more. Mhmm. That's the whole reason by the name of the podcast. And we'll just wrap it up right now.
• 48:15
  Last episode. You were born to love God and love others, not just to wash a dish. Now, depends on how you feel you're showing your love towards others. If you're washing dishes in a soup kitchen
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: And there can be moments like, everybody's gotta wash a dish, guys. Yeah.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: We get that. The thing is everybody should know how to wash a dish.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: That too. But it's not your purpose. Your purpose isn't to wash a dish. Your purpose is to show love. And maybe you are doing that sometimes through washing a
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: dish. Mhmm.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: But it shouldn't always be through taking care of your home.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: It should be through loving through showing up for people.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: And echoing back to our last episode where it was men, you aren't listening.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: I don't
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: know if you've listened to that one. Feel free to go back. But I think it's definitely men's responsibility as well if you love and care for the women in your life to remind them Mhmm. That they are worth so much more. Mhmm.
• 49:20
  And they hold so much value to you and to God and to others. And their purpose is not to wash dishes. Mhmm. It is on you, men, to remind them.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Because we've been taught this. Mhmm. This was ingrained in us Mhmm. By society, by the church, by our parents, by whoever. So, yeah, we do need that extra mind reminder.
• 49:48
  Mhmm. Now next week, on the same note of being more and also Christmas traditions, we are gonna be talking about someone that I had literally never heard of until we started talking about this. Her name is Martha Hughes Cannon.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: Not not Martha May Houvier.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: No. Not that one. But she lived in the late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds. And she was the first female state senator in Utah. She also fought really hard for health care and women's rights and is a big part of the way that the church deals with Christmas.
• 50:28
  Because oftentimes you're seeing Christian churches around the holidays doing more charity work, sending people into the hospitals with, you know, like, candy and whatever to Carol to them, things like that. Mhmm. And she is a big part of the reason for that. She's part of the reason why holiday traditions are safer, why they didn't cause massive outbreaks of disease. She's a very important part
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: of that story. So we're gonna talk about her super interesting woman. Martha. What a Martha.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: No. We don't say that.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: We don't like that.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: No. So she I'm just I like I love learning about these people. I know I say that all the time, but I love learning about women in history because Mhmm. What history book told you about her? Not a one.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: Not a one.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: I took history from kindergarten to twelfth grade. And not one time did I hear this woman's name, and yet she was a landmark person.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: So we'll talk about her. We'll get into her Christmas traditions, things like that. And then the following week, we're gonna do kind of a combo episode and talk about the classic Christmas characters like missus Claus and Catherine Dickens and some of those people like that. So tune in for the next couple of weeks. And in the new year, we'll just see where we go.
• 51:54
  Yeah. I love when you sigh. We wait for something profound. And it's
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No. Yeah. I agree. Yeah.
• 52:04
  I think I'd like to spend a little bit of time in the new year just reflecting where we've come from, you know? Just like what we've done so far with the podcast and some of our favorite moments.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We are nearing episode 100. So if you have any ideas for a really cool topic for our hundredth episode, you can find us on Instagram and TikTok. If you just search the hashtag we are more, we would love to hear from you.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: Please do. So we will talk to you guys about that next week, and I hope you have a less snowy week than we are having.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I hope the sun always shines near you, and it is warm. Yeah. Good luck. Love you bye.
• 52:43
  Love you bye.