Latest / World Ablaze with George Fontes / How Small-L Libertarianism and Constitutional Reform Can Fix America (Havok - Space Tomatoes)

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How Small-L Libertarianism and Constitutional Reform Can Fix America (Havok - Space Tomatoes) · World Ablaze with George Fontes

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welcome back world of blazers today i have special guest havoc havoc is the host of space tomatoes
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where he and his co-host Alex go beyond the narratives
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and strive to have real unscripted conversations,
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which I can attest to because I was a guest on their show recently.
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And I will just say these guys are very cool
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and they are not afraid to dig into the weeds if they need to.
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Havoc has spent years digging into philosophy,
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personal sovereignty, and the gap between what people say,
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what they believe, and how they live.
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And then Havoc is also a self-professed small-el libertarian
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and a well-studied constitutionalist.
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And I will tell you that from my previous conversation,
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he's very well-read.
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And with that being said,
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I think you're going to enjoy this conversation
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that I have with Havoc.
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And welcome, Havoc.
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Yeah, thank you for having me on the show.
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I appreciate it.
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Thank you for having me on your show.
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It was a great time, man.
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We got into some really cool discussions
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about all sorts of things,
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and yeah, I loved it.
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so let's start with this uh just so everybody gets a little bit more um background to you
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just because i'm sure it goes well beyond what i just um told everybody and what i read uh tell
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everybody where you come from and how you came to be the host of space tomatoes try to make this as
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quick as possible uh so i i grew up in a conservative household my father was a captain
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in the Navy. So when it came to discipline and order, et cetera, there was a lot, right?
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And lived my life primarily like that. I watched the Carter years and Reagan years and everything
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since. And, you know, was living in California at the time. For most of my life, I lived in
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California. And, you know, at some point, and I don't recall exactly, I want to say it was
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the Bush era, it started to get this, you know, feeling in the back of my head, right? The second
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Bush. And it was just like, something's not adding up for me, right? I feel like there's something
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wrong, something missing, something I don't know about going on. And so I started to explore things
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and really kind of look at philosophy and different historical authors and liberty minds, etc.
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And I think it was right around the Obama time frame where I literally went,
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you know, this is broken.
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I mean, it's just broken.
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It's straight up broken.
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So I started looking for something that maybe spoke to me a little bit more.
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And then the Tea Party came along.
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and I thought, okay, this sounds better, right? Maybe. And started going into that. And again,
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something's not right here. When I studied the constitution, I studied the founding fathers,
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the federalists, the anti-federalist papers. And I was just looking at all this and the more I did,
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the more things didn't make sense. And then I found the constitutionalist movement and I went
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in there. And then it was like, yeah, okay, but you can't even agree on which constitution,
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right? Which version of it, where, where do we, do we put the cutoff and, you know,
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or is it pick apart? Right. And, and it didn't feel right. And then, you know, I finally just
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got fed up with it all. And, and I started looking at the Libertarian party for about,
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you know, a couple of days or something and went, no. And then I ended up where I am today,
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which is small L libertarian. I don't believe the system is necessary. I believe that people
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are naturally inclined to create order around them. And, you know, I live in a rural environment.
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The idea that we're being, you know, controlled by or watched over, we're not, right? People just
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do things. And, you know, we seem to get along and we work it out and we, you know, work through
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things. And so from there, I just kind of solidified in that and started digging deep into that
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while also maintaining a healthy eye on what's going on today and things of that nature.
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I want you, if you could, because when you were telling me you're a small L libertarian,
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first off, these days, libertarian is thrown around like willy-nilly, to be quite honest.
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Everybody's a libertarian now because they don't know what to define themselves as. They just know
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that they don't like the Democrat party and they don't quite align with the Republican
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party, but they don't want to call themselves an independent.
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And then they claim to be a libertarian.
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So why don't you, why don't you explain exactly what a libertarian is and how a small L libertarian
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is that much different?
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Like what, what, what separates a small libertarian from a libertarian?
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So I'll do my best to describe this.
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And one of the things I think, you know, for anyone that is aware of this terminology,
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uh libertarians big l the party libertarians i think are are very uh very close to aligned with
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what would be called minarchists which is they believe the state is necessary they believe that
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the state needs to provide certain functions but they should be extremely limited and and very few
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right uh you know they do believe in control of the borders they do believe in a military but for
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defensive purposes only, you know, they believe in that, right? So that's a big L libertarian.
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What a small L libertarian is, is kind of a Rothbardian, Hoppian, right? And if you're not
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familiar with these, these are authors, Rothbard and Hopp, H-O-P-P-E, more of those types of
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theories, right? Which is the state is unnecessary and it brings about violence and coercion. It
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needs those things to exist. Without them, there would be no use in it existing. And voluntary
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cooperation should be the way we interact with each other and operate with each other.
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The simple principle is don't harm other people. Don't, you know, destroy or take their stuff
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and live your life as you want and allow others the same.
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Pretty simple.
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So with all of that being said,
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how do you feel about, because you're not a big L libertarian,
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but how do you feel about the libertarian party right now?
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One of the bigger proponents of the libertarian party or claims to be,
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that is more well-known in social media would be like Dave Smith.
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because it seems like that party keeps flipping and flopping
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based on whoever makes them feel good.
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They were a staunch supporter of Trump to get him into office,
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but I'm sure a lot of that was based on Trump's promises
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that he may or may not have come through for them, Juan.
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But then I'm seeing posts and rhetoric and talk about
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aligning with the Democrat Party now,
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just so that we wouldn't have any Republican being voted into office at all.
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How do you feel about that situation right now?
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because I mean, and after that, we're going to definitely go to stay down this road and talk
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about what's coming up with midterms and whatnot. But how do you feel about that alignment of
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Libertarian Party? I mean, they don't really seem really aligned. They're just like whoever's going
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to, I don't know, it's like whoever makes them feel good or whoever's going to just
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kind of get them more noticed, I guess. How do you feel?
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So I think if you look back at this, one of the things that's interesting to note about why
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they threw support in this case, right? When they try and get up on the stage, right? The debates are
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where they can make a real impact. Otherwise, it's just kind of social media and everyone looks at
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you like you're a kook. What happens is every time they get to that point, the numbers change.
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So the big parties will say, yeah, if you want to debate us, you need to have 250,000 votes.
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They pull out 251,000 votes. They go, ah, we just changed the rules to 350,000.
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400,000, 500,000. So they kind of get excluded from those debates, right? And I don't necessarily,
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you know, in history, they don't necessarily throw their weight behind any party. But, you know,
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they kind of have been trying for so long and these rules keep bending. And along comes this,
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you know, candidate that's espousing libertarian ideals, right? You know, very, very heavily
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libertarian ideals, I might add. And so I think they offered him that space on the stage.
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But if you go back and look at that actual LNP, you'll find that a lot of it is people booing him
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until he starts talking about Ross Ulbricht, right?
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Right, right, right. Free Ross. I remember that.
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Yeah. So when you look at that, you start to think, okay, well, this is interesting,
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but they did throw their weight behind and they didn't have a candidate that was going to do
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anything. So I think really the party just came together in that instance to put their support
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behind him based on what he was saying, what he was running on. And I don't think that they're
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going to wholesale go towards the Democrats so much as they mainly will just withhold their vote
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from the Republicans. But I do think that that's going to have a massive impact and the libertarians
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coming out of the woodwork to vote for Trump is honestly the one thing I think that pushed him so
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heavily over the top on that contest. So it's something I think they're going to,
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they're definitely holding back from. And I don't think it's just the libertarians at this point.
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Yeah. And to your point about Trump saying libertarian things back then,
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I think he was going out of his way to pander to that party to get the support because he needed those numbers and he knew that.
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Now, I don't know if he, I don't think he came through in all of his promises for them.
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He did free Ross at least, which was really cool.
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But outside of that, I think they still feel a little sour by what happened.
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So let's talk about now.
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Let's talk about what the country is facing in the midterms.
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All right. And from your perspective, I mean, you're a very well-read, well-studied constitutionalist and small libertarian.
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So from your perspective, how do you feel the country's headed into the midterms and does it look good for America right now?
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Well, that's kind of a tough and a little bit of a trick question.
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So I'm going to start with the second part of that.
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And does it look good for America right now?
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No, no, it doesn't.
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It didn't four years ago.
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And if you applied any real logic or honesty, you could probably say it hasn't for quite some time.
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Going into this, I don't see the Republicans maintaining their presence in all three branches at this point.
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I think you've got a very riled up Democrat base, which that party has spent an inordinate amount of time making sure that it's known that you're suffering because we want you to suffer and you will continue to suffer.
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So you've got a very riled up base there and you've got a lot of independent people as well that are looking at this and going, this isn't what we wanted.
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This isn't the America first, no new wars, better economy.
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And sure, you can make the case the stock markets are up and things of that nature are going great.
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But it's kind of like if you're not in the club of having a big stock portfolio, you're suffering.
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I don't care where you live or how you live, you're suffering.
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And so, yeah, there is a good deal of that.
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Right.
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Now, the thing with the midterms coming up too, though, I also believe that I don't know
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if the Democrats have full control of their own party anymore, though.
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They seem to be There seems to be a fracture or a splinter from what I can see And they got to deal with this democratic socialist issue where they latched onto the party and use them as a literal platform to gain support
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And they're using the Democrat party to drive the message.
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And now you're seeing AOC claiming she's a democratic socialist.
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For example, we have Al-Sayed who's running, who is gaining steam, but then he does a dumb
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thing and latched onto Hassan Piker, an influencer who says that we deserve 9-11 and really wants
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to bring down capitalism and wears a Mao Zedong uniform.
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I don't know where he sees any greatness in communist China whatsoever.
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I mean, Mao Zedong was responsible for the largest amount of people
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who died from famine and from forced labor.
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I mean, in history, in history.
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So we have that going on.
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And then he had Fetterman speaking out against his own party.
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Now, that guy always plays kind of the middle.
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He will vote Democrats because that's his party.
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like he's just gonna well when it comes down to it he'll go that way but he's also seems to be the
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voice of reason at times believe it or not at least it seems that way without question yeah
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which is like no so do you think and this is where i'm going with this habit do you think that those
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old school democrats are going to step up and get control of their party so that we don't have to
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face 19 congressional dsa candidates being elected into congress so i think you you've got
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Yes, I do.
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To an extent, right?
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They will allow some things to happen because they do align with their own platform.
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But I don't think...
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So I think it's not going to be what we've seen with the Republicans, right?
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And what do I mean by that?
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I think some fairly extreme policies came out.
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I think that if I were to play the cards of a party person, there are some extreme measures that are needed, right?
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But some fairly extreme cards came out that I think most of the Republicans, like the standard Republicans, would have never gone with.
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But all three branches, the president and the movement behind it, they kind of got behind it.
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And you're starting to see some fracturing of that as well.
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You're starting to see some of the Republicans come out and say openly, no more war, right?
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We got to stop this thing.
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And I think, you know, you're probably going to see a lot of that with the Democrats, but
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I don't think they're going to allow the extreme stuff to come through.
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And I got to tell you, honestly, man, you know, you've got a framework that at least
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makes that something that would have to be slow rolled through arguments in courts and
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then precedent setting, right?
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So.
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Yeah, I see the point and I'm not going to disagree with you.
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I think the Republican Party has an issue as well because I think it's not one party
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anymore.
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It's really like MAGA and whatever the Republicans are, to be quite honest.
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Yep.
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But when it comes to the Democrat Party, I think the DSA is a problem.
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I think socialism is a problem, my perspective.
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Okay.
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And they have been infiltrated.
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And if we look at Congress as it sits, we already have members who claim to align with the DSA already.
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We have Ilhan Omar.
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We have Rashida Tlaib.
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We have the five who already are there.
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And if we get another 19 elected, I mean, they're going to slowly start tilting the balance.
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So, yeah, long term, you're correct.
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It's going to take a lot of passing of laws and legislation, et cetera, to change everything to become more socialist.
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list. But at the same time, this is showing a clear, to me, a clear divide within the
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Democrat Party in and of itself. And I think they're going to have to make a choice here
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because they don't, to me, seem like one party where they're all rallying together anymore.
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They're trying and they don't have a clear leader. I mean, who are we talking about,
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AOC or James Tallarico, who conflates religions and doesn't understand what religion he actually
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is and conflates the Bible with Islam
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and et cetera and just picks and chooses
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what ideology he wants just to get the vote.
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I mean, I
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think most people who
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align with the Democrat Party see through that as well.
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Oh, I'm sure.
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The thing is,
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I am hoping,
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I'm hoping the Democrat Party gets
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their shit together. And even if
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they win the midterm, at least I want to see
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people who still believe in America
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in Congress or in positions
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where they can actually affect America
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versus the DSA,
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who has a very clear mission
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to turn America into something
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that just is not what it is today.
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And they may argue it's good.
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I don't believe so.
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Socialism hasn't worked anywhere.
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Anywhere.
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It really just hasn't.
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And I understand that you're more...
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I understand that you may see things
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slightly different than me,
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but I think you and I will align on a lot of this.
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I don't want America to turn into a communist country.
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No, no.
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Not at all.
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Absolutely not, right? I mean, you can go through varying stages of different, you know, political ideology, right?
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And honestly, you know, what we have, what, you know, primarily a lot of the, you know, westernized countries have is far preferable to something that resembles socialism, right?
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And while the ideas aren't necessarily all terrible, the problem is that you have an excessively bloated government that will be in charge of this.
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I did some math back in like the 2000 range because someone was spouting off some numbers
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and I wanted to check it for every welfare recipient getting at the poverty level,
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getting their whatever welfare from all the programs combined.
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The total coming in would be about $12,500 per year.
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The amount of money going in was $85,000.
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Okay.
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Take that math and apply it to socialism.
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And you start to see where this just...
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I mean, it doesn't work, number one.
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Number two, I mean, we can't all agree on who should be running the show, number one.
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Do you also want them running all industry across the board?
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All in the means of production?
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Yeah, right.
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And so those are the things.
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And I think there also is a lot of fear mongering that comes in on this.
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And I do want to say this.
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First off, I'm not on either team.
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I don't like either team.
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I don't want anything to do with either team.
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Understood.
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What I will say is I think there's a lot of fear mongering that's coming in on the socialism aspect.
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And if you really look at it, what they're really trying for is kind of what they've said out loud, right?
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People should not go unhoused. People should have access to healthcare and it shouldn't ruin their
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life, right? Things of this nature. Do I think those are good ideas? Do you think we should
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socialize? No. But again, it's not the, we're going to turn into a true socialist country and
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And you know what I mean?
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So it's not like we're going into like a USSR or a North Korea type of a situation.
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But it's a slippery slope.
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Anytime anything erodes out of these liberties that we are supposed to have,
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it's just, you know, once you start the erosion process,
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it's just a matter of time before it's all gone.
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Yeah, I think you said what I was just going to say myself is I don't think the country will willingly turn that way, but it will over time through acceptance of giving up your liberties.
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And we've already seen that, though, throughout the years.
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Some states are worse than others.
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As you know, you're from California.
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We've seen that happen continuously in California where it's like, well, you don't need to.
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I mean, it's not healthy, but just saying using smoking, for example.
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You don't need to smoke.
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It's bad.
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is going to lead to cancer.
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Okay.
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For some, for some not, whatever.
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But then you're also taking people's right
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to enjoy whether or not they want to smoke.
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And then you're saying,
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well, now you can do it outside.
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And then they go, okay, that's fair.
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I don't want to have smoke,
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secondhand smoke,
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into the lungs of people around me
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in the restaurant.
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Okay, fine.
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Then you accept that.
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And then you accept,
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well, we have people eating outside too
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and smoke kind of still getting in.
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So it can't be within 20 feet of the door.
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And they're like, all right, fine.
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And now it's to the point where they're
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cities that are trying to ban tobacco sales in retail stores altogether.
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And it's even getting into the cigars,
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which I'm not going to stand for because I'm a cigar smoker.
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But it's like these...
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And I'm just using smoking.
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I know it's bad.
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But at the same time,
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you're telling people what they can and can't enjoy as adults.
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That's stupid, in my opinion.
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And it's not a hard drug.
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There's a big difference between that and cocaine.
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Let's just be honest.
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I get it.
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but that is where that's an example of how we slowly give away our freedoms
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because they take it away a little at a time because they try to justify the
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argument as in, well, this benefits these people in this way.
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So, you know, if you just give this up, you're actually benefiting society.
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Are you though? Are you though?
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Yeah, no, there's, there's a lot to be said for that. Right.
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And if you look at it, look for, look for other areas as well. Right.
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I mean, nobody's saying you can't drink alcohol. True.
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It's just as damaging.
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And it is.
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It's the slippery slope mechanism, right?
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It always is.
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You allow one little infringement for people's safety,
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and it's always about people's safety.
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And then more will come.
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More will follow.
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And this was one of the things that seemed off to me earlier on.
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It's like this desire.
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it seems the end game is we all live in a world prison and we get,
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you know,
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told what to do,
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when to wake up,
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you know,
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all,
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all this stuff and everyone's happy.
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Yeah.
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Yeah,
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absolutely.
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So look,
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I personally think the DSA is a problem.
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I understand where you're coming from and saying that we're not going to turn
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socialism tomorrow or go down the road,
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the USSR,
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but at the same time,
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these little things of,
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of willingly giving up their freedoms is how this is done.
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the DSA is spreading the age-old message of every socialist slash Marxist country, nation, whatever.
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We're for the people, the working people, right?
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They always use the working party angle to try to rally everybody.
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And what they don't understand is like, well, what happens when the working party is now the people in charge?
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And then they're going to further start to have to establish, well, someone has to lead.
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And it always ends up being a dictator or an authoritarian somehow.
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I don't know how, but it always works out that way.
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and they further divide the like they always say well you know we don't have a middle class anymore
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and we're in a class war with capitalism well what do you think you're gonna get into once you adopt
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socialism full-blown there isn't going to be a middle class there's going to be the lower class
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and the rulers and that's just it there is not going to be any more opportunities outside of
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what your rulers tell you you can have what your job may be valued out i mean you you think because
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you're a doctor you're still going to make a 300 something thousand a year with benefits
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hell no you're not they may go well we need you but we don't think you're worth more than 40 000
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there's no guarantee in all this so and maybe i'm going overboard with these examples but
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you know we've seen it we've seen it we've seen it in china it happened in china there's and
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they're still trying to enforce these policies and turn um other tribes and and um you know
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peoples in china who don't want to conform they're still trying to force them like the
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Falun Gong, for example.
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And so these things are still happening today.
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And I don't know why it is that the youth, for example,
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because those are the ones that they're hitting first.
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That's where they're getting the messaging to support the DSA.
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I don't know what we need to do to educate these people that this is not the path.
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I understand we're all frustrated because economy sucks right now.
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I get it.
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We didn't want to go to war.
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Understood.
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But I mean, the road to socialism is not the answer either.
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so how are we going to fix this
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how are we going to fix this havoc in your mind
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well it's hard right
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well it's a bigger question than just that right
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so okay there is so okay a couple of stats since 1913 the dollar has lost 97 of its purchasing power Right Since 1971 it lost 84 of its purchasing power
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Wages have not kept track with the cost of goods or the cost of living.
26:16
We are in debt so badly right now with deficits that are spiking.
26:22
and I don't know if you've been paying attention to the bond sales lately,
26:28
but we're starting to offer bonds at unreasonable amounts of interest,
26:35
which is, believe me, that if there were a canary in a coal mine, that's the one.
26:41
And so I've got children.
26:43
And here's the thing.
26:45
They have no hope, right?
26:47
a new vehicle nowadays is like, you know, I mean, if I make that payment, I have to go rent a room
26:55
instead of, you know, having, you know, it's ridiculous, whatever. I can't find a place to
27:01
live. And my hope at 27, 28 years old of ever owning a home is a distant, you know, dream.
27:09
It'll never happen. So you look at those things and you see that our youth has been disaffected
27:15
in a way that is massively impacting their quality of life.
27:19
They see all of the older generation,
27:22
you've seen it over and over again,
27:24
blaming the boomers for all this.
27:25
The real blame lies with the government
27:29
and the Federal Reserve.
27:30
I promise you that.
27:33
But I think that's the big issue.
27:36
And if you want to tackle it,
27:37
you've got to do something to stop the spending.
27:40
You've got to stop the bleeding.
27:42
It can't be just continue to raise the debt ceiling.
27:46
And we've got to start normalizing our economy in a way that's meaningful to everyone, not just stockholders, not just the people with billion dollar plus markets.
27:59
It's got to be for the average Joe working a starting job.
28:04
You know what I mean?
28:05
Yeah.
28:05
And I said this earlier to someone, when I was growing up, I lived in a nice home and, you know, myself and my sibling.
28:15
And, you know, we lived in a nice area and we had a vehicle and, you know, there was only one person working in the house.
28:25
That was it.
28:26
You can't do that today.
28:30
So we're in danger, though.
28:33
again i hear what you're saying but if you're sitting there and your hope your hope is just
28:39
you've been watching like you know from obama to then trump to then biden now trump again and
28:45
nothing has gotten better it's all gotten worse for you you start to get in your head well maybe
28:52
it's the economic you know system that we've got yeah yeah yeah no maybe this is better i understand
28:58
and and that's where i'm going with it with my response to this is um i'm not disagreeing with
29:02
you by the way it's just with it with what everything you said we are in danger of sending
29:07
the message that capitalism is a failure and it's not that capitalism is a failure a failure is
29:12
fiscal responsibility and accountability the failure is getting off the gold standard and
29:16
giving the fed all control that was the failures it wasn't capitalism itself mix that in with
29:21
corporate cronyism as well and nepotism yeah so it's it's like that was the problem is is you know
29:29
people in control are going to find a way to maintain control.
29:31
And they did that by manipulating the systems.
29:34
But we can also argue, and I know you're probably going to be behind what I'm saying here,
29:39
is the people didn't step up to hold anyone accountable either.
29:42
They didn't stand up to their government.
29:43
They just let it happen.
29:45
And that's the power we are supposed to have, you know, by way of the Constitution, as it is written.
29:50
We should be able to do that.
29:52
But nobody ever does.
29:54
Everyone's afraid to stand up to the government for whatever reason and take control and keep it on track.
29:59
So it's like we did it to ourselves.
30:01
I can't remember.
30:02
Who was it?
30:03
Was it Payne?
30:05
Was it?
30:06
I don't remember who said it, but, you know, and I'm paraphrasing here.
30:10
Whenever these things become repugnant to the Constitution, it is not only your right, but your duty to alter or abolish it.
30:20
And we've sat by and watched.
30:22
We have the power.
30:23
We do.
30:23
But the problem is, is we all have been, and this is where we may disagree, but we have all been kind of told that the power lies within our vote.
30:35
And I'm telling you right now, voting will change nothing.
30:40
And if you haven't seen that yet, I don't know what to tell you.
30:44
No, I get where you're coming from because our vote elects a representative, but you don't have any real control of that representative actually doing their damn job.
30:51
and they're in office until the next vote.
30:54
You don't even have control over the representative.
30:57
Did you choose Trump to run?
31:00
I didn't.
31:01
No, I didn't.
31:01
So you got handed, here's like our two guys.
31:04
We think you'll choose one, you know, four guys.
31:07
You're going to go ahead and choose one.
31:08
That's four people out of 300 million, right?
31:11
We'll call it 170, right?
31:14
Even call it 100.
31:16
That's four people out of 100 million people.
31:19
Were they the best?
31:20
were they the people the people wanted no it's who the ones that got the most money and backing
31:26
it's who the party wanted right and the party wants those people because they will do what the
31:31
party wants yes and that's the problem we've gotten into this partisan policy politics and
31:36
it's what the party wants not the people uh and the party puts the candidates up and the party
31:43
pushes to elect these candidates. So it's unfortunately one of those things where
31:53
I don't know how to change it because I believe that violence should be reserved for self-defense.
32:03
And I don't know how you affect the change at this point other than literally just don't show up.
32:12
Like at some point, you know, you get like, you know, the screen comes up on election day and there's, you know, 27 votes for one guy and 15 for the other.
32:21
And everyone goes, doesn't matter.
32:23
I'm not paying any attention to you.
32:25
That would be something.
32:27
Yeah, I don't disagree with anything you said, honestly.
32:30
you know and we saw a perfect example of what what what your uh example that you gave was
32:36
where the democrat party when they sidelined joe biden and they didn't even give the people a chance
32:42
to vote well who who will be our representative they just pushed comment there and everyone's like
32:47
huh that's not that wasn't the move you know there were there were people in the democrat
32:53
party that had other ideas and it's just like all of a sudden it's like no primary and nothing
32:58
just like, here's who we're going with.
33:01
I was like, hmm, well, that was pretty eye-opening, right?
33:04
So that was an example right there of the parties at work
33:10
not working on your behalf for sure.
33:12
I still think the vote matters to a degree
33:14
because that's all we have.
33:16
But your argument is like,
33:19
I can't argue too much against what you said
33:22
because it's a theoretical for one,
33:25
because we don't have direct control.
33:27
we have control to elect a representative,
33:29
but we still can't control what those representatives actually do.
33:32
And the only way that we can show them that we're in control is after they've
33:35
done the damage and we don't elect them again for one.
33:37
And two,
33:38
like you said,
33:38
the parties like the RNC,
33:39
DNC,
33:40
they seem to just without,
33:43
without our knowledge or,
33:44
or even consenting to us as citizens,
33:47
they're the ones who present to us who it is that they want to push in to be
33:52
the representative.
33:53
Like we don't get a fair shake at everybody who's trying to apply to run for
33:57
president, for example, or shoot, even at the local politics level, you don't really
34:02
get to see everybody, you know?
34:03
So the system does need to be reformed.
34:07
But I mean, what other way would we be able to do that in your mind?
34:11
Like how else would we be able to give everyone a fair shake at reaching the people without
34:16
making it an extremely long process?
34:20
Yeah.
34:21
Right?
34:22
The three boxes theory comes back to mind, right?
34:26
And again, I don't like it.
34:27
It's a terrible, terrible idea.
34:30
But it's the speech box, stomping.
34:37
We could do the whole soapbox Sundays or something, right?
34:40
Or the ballot box.
34:41
Yeah.
34:42
Or the cartridge box, right?
34:45
Cartridge box.
34:46
Yeah.
34:47
Meaning ammunition.
34:49
I kind of got that.
34:49
Yeah.
34:50
And that's the worst case, right?
34:53
I mean, that is the absolute worst case.
34:55
and people calling for that,
34:57
you're a complete moron.
34:58
I'm sorry.
34:59
I have nothing else to say,
35:01
but that is a lot of the people
35:04
you call neighbor or friend dying.
35:07
Right.
35:08
Right.
35:08
Understood.
35:10
But wouldn't it be kind of cool
35:11
to see people go back to those days
35:13
of being on the corner,
35:14
three people on their soapboxes
35:16
trying to get people's attention?
35:18
It would.
35:19
It would.
35:19
It would also be really cool
35:20
to see politicians dragged out of office
35:23
when they did the exact opposite of what they platformed on.
35:26
Absolutely.
35:27
And then tarred and feathered and left on the lawn.
35:30
Like, there you are.
35:32
You get what you deserve, right?
35:36
That goes back to what we're talking about with accountability havoc.
35:39
It's like these people, you're right.
35:41
If they're not delivering on their promises based on...
35:43
Like, they sold you a bad bill of goods.
35:46
Like, they sold you a lemon.
35:48
Literally told you what you wanted to hear.
35:49
They got an office and they're not doing their damn job.
35:52
we would fire any corporate executive
35:54
who sold them a bill of goods
35:56
got in there, did not
35:58
do what they were going to say and started tanking the company
36:00
they'd be gone, but for some reason
36:02
we stick behind these politicians and trust them
36:04
and I don't know if it's that we all
36:06
trust them, like you don't, I don't
36:09
but the general public, I don't think they care enough
36:11
it's like they don't want to
36:12
concern themselves with it
36:14
and they want to bury their heads in the sand, I hate that
36:16
because those are the same people that always
36:18
want to complain about things but don't want to do anything
36:20
as simple as just paying attention to who it is you're fucking actually trying to elect in the
36:24
office. Yeah. The populace has become apathetic, right? And there's no question about that.
36:34
And I guess there's a certain amount of understanding that comes along with that,
36:40
right? I mean, we all know, are familiar with the term Stockholm syndrome.
36:44
Yes, absolutely.
36:45
And there's only so many times you can get beat over the head before you just
36:48
kind of just continue around with your day and, and, you know, okay,
36:53
whack up, just keep washing dishes, you know? And, and I, you know, so yeah,
36:59
I, I, you know, I really don't know, you know,
37:03
the solution honestly is to hold them accountable and we have to do it.
37:08
You're going to, I don't, in my time,
37:11
I've seen 50 years worth of congressional hearings and I've never seen a single
37:16
person hold accountable.
37:17
Like, oh, you're a bad boy.
37:20
Okay, next.
37:21
They make them answer questions and then nothing happens.
37:25
What's the point of these hearings?
37:26
Well, the point is, and this is quite honest, right?
37:29
The only point of these, and if you pay attention to the cycle of them, is to get sound bites and clips so that they can rile the base for the next election.
37:37
They literally get elected and the immediate thing they start doing is working on re-election.
37:45
I mean, you're not wrong there.
37:46
It does seem to kind of always align.
37:49
And if it's not a politician they're questioning, it's someone else we're throwing under the bus.
37:52
So that makes a politician look good.
37:55
Hey, it wasn't me.
37:55
It was Oliver North, remember?
37:57
Yeah.
37:57
Yeah.
37:58
And even if it's not military and it's like Bill Gates was holding in front of Congress, right?
38:03
Yeah, exactly.
38:04
And again, it's a never-ending thing, right?
38:09
Welcome to the circus, man.
38:11
Okay.
38:12
So then do we have any hope, man?
38:13
We sound pretty down.
38:15
We do.
38:16
We have a lot of hope.
38:17
We have a lot of hope.
38:18
There are a lot of people that truly care.
38:20
And I'm even going to talk to the extreme,
38:23
forgive me saying it,
38:26
but some of these guys are very cult-like
38:28
in their following,
38:29
but on both sides, right?
38:31
The DSA cult-like following,
38:33
as well as the portion of MAGA that is just,
38:38
there's nothing the man could ever do, right?
38:41
Yeah.
38:42
Even with those people,
38:43
they sense something's wrong.
38:45
They know something's wrong.
38:46
They know if you,
38:49
in some of the chat rooms I was in
38:51
prior to this election,
38:53
they were very able to see what was wrong with the current admin at the time Now when you point out things that are wrong they like no no no So the hope is they do see it right
39:07
And eventually, I hope we'll actually get it.
39:11
It's pervasive.
39:14
A lot of people call it the uni party, right?
39:16
Because the idea is there's some little teeny differences that rile up the base here and there,
39:23
but in general, very similar.
39:25
Yeah, but I mean, if we're going to take this back to the Trump 2.0 election here, I mean, what the hell were the options, really?
39:32
I mean, Kamala or Trump, we weren't really given much.
39:36
No, no, it was a lose-lose.
39:38
But I mean, you could argue every one of them is a lose-lose.
39:43
Right.
39:43
And the worst part about that is, you know, the one thing I wish people would see more of is, and I've recognized this, is it's getting more extreme every time.
39:55
the pendulum swings.
39:56
It does seem to be, yeah.
39:57
When your person is in power,
40:00
just remember that the things they do now,
40:04
when the pendulum swings,
40:06
because it will,
40:07
there's no getting rid of the other party.
40:10
It's not going to happen.
40:12
It will swing.
40:13
And when it does,
40:15
they are going to use that as precedent
40:17
and bolster it and make it worse.
40:21
And then swing back,
40:23
use that,
40:24
bolster it, bring back. But I do think there is hope. People are seeing this. A lot of people
40:30
are waking up. I'm seeing more and more people literally sitting there throwing their hands up
40:34
in the air and thinking we had the perfect candidate, at least from what we were told
40:40
was going to happen. And it didn't happen. And this is broken. I don't know what to do,
40:47
but it's broken. And that gives me hope because the more people see that, the more people will
40:56
start to take action and get out on those boxes and start stumping. They'll get out there and try
41:03
and make changes and also educate their children, right? Educate your kids, right?
41:11
It's on you how you want to do that, but educate them, right? Give them the real history of things.
41:16
Give them the reality of the situation and try not to be as radically segmented from another portion of the population.
41:29
Try to give them an education that talks about the other side.
41:33
Right?
41:36
I think the hope that we have, though, you have and most of us who care about this country have,
41:42
is we're going to have to use that in 2028.
41:46
because midterms
41:48
right now, it ain't going to really matter.
41:51
The only thing that matters to me is not
41:52
electing DSA candidates. That's all I care about.
41:55
I don't really care if the Democrats
41:57
get control
41:58
anymore at this point because I live through, I don't know how many
42:01
years of them having control anyway. It's
42:02
whatever. What I would like to see
42:05
though is not total control. I'd like to see more balance.
42:07
I want to see a more balanced
42:09
Congress. That's what I want to see.
42:11
I want to see a more balanced House. I want to see a more balanced
42:12
Senate. That's what I'd like to see, but I do not
42:15
want to see a democratic socialist elected. I mean, if that happens, I'm going to be honest,
42:19
man, I might throw my hands up. I don't know. But I do want to see a more balanced midterm election
42:24
that balances Congress out. That's what I'm looking for. But 2028, as far as hope is concerned,
42:30
I don't know what it's going to look like for the presidential candidate at that time.
42:34
We know Trump's done. I think Trump knows he's done. And I think that's part of the reason he's
42:38
turned on everybody to a degree because he knows this is it. He's going to do what he wants to do,
42:42
get it done because he knows he's gone and he doesn't care who it hurts or what breaks along
42:49
the way and now we can argue he's looking for down the road sort of situations like yeah it's
42:55
gonna suck now but down the road it's gonna even out for america because these policies and whatever
43:00
he's trying to do is gonna be better for us but right now people are suffering and right now it's
43:06
it's really motivating as you were talking about earlier the youth to look at this shiny socialism
43:11
ideology because
43:13
they don't see a way forward
43:15
right now.
43:18
Unfortunately.
43:19
So let's dive into a little
43:21
something different.
43:23
So I think DSA is a problem.
43:25
But how about ideologies? Where are you at
43:27
with that? Is Islam
43:29
a problem as we see it right
43:31
now? And when I'm talking about
43:33
that, we're talking about candidates like
43:35
Mamdani. We've seen his policies and how
43:37
they're really working out in New York, which
43:39
not really uh we see the push for al-sayab and we've seen a lot of these candidates that have
43:44
gotten their money from literally from muslim brotherhood from different organizations like
43:48
care um and other organizations that are tied to actual terrorist terrorist cells like literally
43:55
and now i'm not going to get too deep in the weeds we can at another time if you want to
43:58
have researched all this but the reality is do you see that as a real threat or is that just more
44:04
noise. Yes. Cool. So it is both. So here's the thing, and this is the part that really gets me,
44:14
right? So we like to throw out, Islam is the problem, right? Muslims are the problem.
44:21
And that I disagree with. That I wholeheartedly disagree with. What I do agree with is these,
44:30
PACs, these agencies that put together funding, lobbyists, etc., CARE.
44:41
What I see a problem with is these things amassing great amounts of money and then
44:47
donating them in to effect change. That I see a problem with. I see a problem with anyone that
44:54
is radical. I don't care what religion you happen to be of. If you are completely radicalized,
45:00
I think you've got a problem, right?
45:03
And that goes across the board.
45:06
So, you know, I don't see Islam as the problem.
45:10
I really don't.
45:11
I've met quite a number of people that are Islamic,
45:15
and I've never, you know, I've had deep conversations with them.
45:20
And, you know, I think there are areas where people, you know,
45:24
take things a bit far, right?
45:28
I mean, if you look at the Bible, there's certainly, especially if you look at the Old Testament, right?
45:33
Which is one that gets trotted out and quoted all the time.
45:37
There are places in there where you could go, holy, you know what I mean?
45:42
And so I think what happens is you've got people that are doing those sorts of things and pointing to those and they are radicalized.
45:51
And yeah, I see that as a problem.
45:53
And it doesn't matter what your religion is.
45:56
I definitely have a different take.
45:58
because I've definitely studied and looked into this,
46:00
but this isn't for me to argue with you.
46:03
It's just we do have a difference between Sunni and Shia.
46:05
Oh, yes, for one.
46:07
So maybe your experience has been more with the good side.
46:10
We do have the extremist view.
46:12
And I will argue that, yes, Muslims in general,
46:15
as a person, when you're born, you're not,
46:17
you're born a Muslim, you don't get a choice.
46:18
Just as I was born in America and my dad was a Catholic
46:22
and I got into Christianity.
46:24
I'm not saying I'm a good Christian anymore,
46:25
But still, I'm just saying, you're born into it.
46:29
If someone's a Muslim, they're born to be that.
46:31
You don't get that choice.
46:32
Just as someone born in Nigeria doesn't have a choice.
46:34
They're born to Nigeria, and unfortunately, sometimes they're just born into a bad life.
46:38
So point being is I can't ignore the 1,400-year history of Islam and its conquest and everything
46:47
that's done as it has spread and what it has done to try to destroy the West.
46:50
And to this day, they still have the outlook.
46:52
Now, not all.
46:52
As we said, there are differences.
46:54
We look to Indonesia as a shining light,
46:57
largest Muslim population on the earth,
46:58
and they're not a terrorist state.
47:01
Exactly.
47:01
So I get it.
47:02
I get where you're coming from.
47:03
But the problem we have here right now,
47:06
Havoc,
47:06
my argument is these candidates,
47:09
the people that they're trying to put into place of power are absolutely
47:13
influenced and controlled by the negative Islamists,
47:17
by the extremists.
47:19
And that is what I have an issue with.
47:21
It's not that I hate a Muslim,
47:22
by the way.
47:22
It's just,
47:24
They have too many ties to powers that be that want to topple the United States of America.
47:30
And when you dig into their speeches and what like, look, I have clips I could share with you later of Mamdani stating things that he would never get elected for if he actually said them today.
47:40
He literally said his plan is to infiltrate the Democrat Party and spread the DSA doctrine across the United States.
47:48
Literally said that.
47:49
You have Al-Sayed who's given speeches and who has definitely sided with Hassan Piker and has said that his goal is to spread Islam.
47:59
And you have CARE where he was endorsing the speech where they said their goal is to spread mosques around the United States to the level of 4,000.
48:09
Their goal is to get funding.
48:10
Their goal was to get funding through all these mosques to send people to colleges in political science degrees to get filmmaking education and also journalists so that they can control the narrative.
48:24
They can make the propaganda and they can affect change through laws that benefit them.
48:30
These are things that are said.
48:31
It's not hidden.
48:32
So those are my concerns.
48:33
It's not the average person.
48:35
I'm with you on that.
48:36
But the people that are running aren't the average person, unfortunately.
48:39
No.
48:39
No. And you know what? I would argue that that applies to 99% of them, right? Not just Muslim. The people that are running for office are...
48:53
No, no, no. I get you there. Yeah, I understand that.
48:56
The reason I temper that, and here's the big reason, we have arguably a fairly healthy population of Muslims, right?
49:07
We do.
49:07
As well as Jews and Christians and atheists and everyone else.
49:13
We've seen before when we start saying it's Muslims, the next thing you know, people are being beat up on buses and clocked on streets.
49:26
stuff like this. And I would say that's where I temper that because those people aren't your enemy,
49:34
right? At least I don't believe they are, right? The people you're talking about, yeah. I mean,
49:43
if you're openly espousing for that, for the takeover, the eventual takeover of a state,
49:51
and that's what that sounds like, right? If you want to take over, you change the hearts and minds
49:56
and you do that slowly through kind of a predictive programming,
49:59
movies, journalism, education, etc.
50:04
Right?
50:05
So, yes, I see that's bad.
50:06
But I also see it's bad no matter what that fundamentalism is coming from.
50:14
True.
50:14
But if it's bad, why is it looked down upon to call it out?
50:18
Okay?
50:18
Because the argument being here is we have...
50:22
And again, not all.
50:23
I'm on the same page with you.
50:25
Not all.
50:25
But we do have actual organizations whose entire goal is to bring the United States from within.
50:32
This is what they've been doing in Europe.
50:34
This is what they've been doing in the UK.
50:35
They've been trying to do it in Italy.
50:37
And they've stated it.
50:38
Absolutely.
50:39
So that's what I'm trying to avoid is that situation, if we can.
50:43
So we don't have the national, I don't know, or the worldwide satanic terrorist organization, for example, running for office.
50:54
outwardly professing.
50:57
You know what I'm saying?
50:58
That's what I'm trying to get.
50:59
Yes, we have bad people.
51:01
We have some jackasses
51:02
that shouldn't be in office
51:03
and be given power at all.
51:05
And yeah, they're part of
51:06
some secret organizations, etc.
51:07
I get that that happens,
51:09
but they're not to the level
51:11
of power or numbers
51:14
that these extremist organizations are,
51:17
as in Islam.
51:18
Yes, we have white supremacists
51:20
that have some control,
51:21
but I mean, let's just be honest.
51:22
They're still not to the level
51:24
of size that the extremist Islamic organizations are,
51:28
especially those that are ran and funded by Iran
51:31
and other related organizations.
51:34
So that's where my concern is,
51:37
not targeting people,
51:38
but making sure that we stop these organizations
51:41
and their representatives from infiltrating
51:45
our political, our governance, for example,
51:49
to where they can actually start affecting
51:51
and changing things from within,
51:52
right from under our feet.
51:54
that's my concern
51:55
so
51:56
I don't know
51:57
my
51:59
I guess
52:00
response to that would be this, right?
52:03
We know this.
52:04
Yeah, we do. These are
52:06
openly stated goals. Yes, sir.
52:12
That would, at least to my
52:14
eye, mean that our government
52:16
knows this.
52:18
We would assume.
52:20
So, why haven't they
52:22
done anything about it? Exactly.
52:25
So, there's the question, right? Yeah.
52:26
Because they're just coming in. They don't hold
52:28
power. They don't hold anything.
52:30
The big question I would be asking yourself is not so much, you know, these are the bad guys, but why is this being allowed?
52:38
I have asked that.
52:39
Yeah, I have.
52:40
And so that's the bigger question is why is our government allowing extremists with a stated goal of bringing down the United States to hold offices, to hold power?
52:55
Because it's George Soros and the WEF.
52:57
well i i i don't know right i mean don't get me wrong i am i am somewhat conspiratorial right but
53:05
i mean the evidence is in front of your eyes and right i i did a little thing the other day just to
53:10
see what what are the proven actual conspiracy theories dude it's three pages long and very
53:16
small font and it it a lot dude not so conspiratorial are they right so so i guess yeah that where I would go with it is we get this we know this but it not kosher right It not legal You can be plotting the downfall of the United
53:36
States and run for office and get in office. We have words for that. And yeah, so that's where I
53:45
would point back is why hasn't it been dealt with yeah i agree i totally agree and and i don't think
53:52
enough people are actually asking that question uh they're they're just looking at what's in front
53:57
of them but they're not asking why is it being allowed yeah why in this sovereign state are we
54:02
allowing something that's so opposed to our actual ideology that doesn't make any sense it really
54:08
doesn't. And that is
54:10
the
54:10
big question mark on a lot of things,
54:14
right? Why are we
54:15
allowing this? All right, so
54:17
let's try to bring this all back
54:20
together here before we end. Awesome.
54:22
To fix America, it sounds
54:24
like we got to, one, stick
54:26
to the damn Constitution.
54:28
Two, hold our elected
54:30
officials accountable, like really hold them accountable.
54:32
Like physically, if you have to, I think
54:33
sometimes. Get back
54:36
in the gold standard, maybe get rid of the Fed.
54:38
And stop spending so much damn money and throw in our use future away.
54:42
That sounds like a good plan.
54:45
All right I mean honestly you know it it here a real funny one What one Everything you just mentioned is the Libertarian Party platform
54:56
It makes sense.
54:58
I mean, I think that's the platform of our founding fathers, to be quite honest.
55:06
It is very close to that.
55:08
And that's where, like I said earlier, the minarchist comes in, right?
55:12
You look at someone that believes that there is a need for government, but it needs to be extremely, extremely small and extremely contained with well-defined rights.
55:22
Yeah, 10th Amendment, 9th Amendment, and individual liberty being above the basic government in general.
55:33
And so, yeah, I think that would be a good start, man.
55:39
It would be a really good start.
55:40
Havoc, let's talk about where people can find you,
55:45
where they can find Space Tomatoes,
55:47
and any socials you may have.
55:49
Hey, well, you can find us at spacetomatoes.net.
55:55
All of our episodes are listed there.
55:57
You can also find us on wherever podcasts are played.
56:00
We host off fountain.fm,
56:02
but you can find us on all the other platforms.
56:05
On YouTube, you'll find us at spacetomatoespc.
56:09
I believe or is it It might be Space Tomatoes Podcast Sorry I don have it off the top of my head On X you can find us at
56:20
at Space Tomatoes PC. And on Instagram, it is Space Tomatoes.
56:27
I'm going to go to your YouTube here real quick, just so people can see that. That way you guys know what you're looking for.
56:32
And there it is. That's the YouTube. And you do have your X, right?
56:36
So let's go ahead and take over to X.
56:39
Here's Space Tomatoes X.
56:42
So support Havoc.
56:43
And there's Alex right there.
56:47
He's a good guy.
56:48
So support Havoc and Alex.
56:49
Check out Space Tomatoes.
56:51
Give them a listen.
56:53
And with that, we're going to sign off.
56:56
And Havoc, anything else before we leave?
57:00
No, man.
57:00
Stay positive.
57:02
We're all going to get through this one way or another.
57:05
Yes, sir.
57:06
We will.
57:07
I think America will get their shit together
57:09
and realize we have a lot at stake
57:12
and we're going to get back to basics.
57:14
We really need to.
57:15
I believe we will.
57:16
In the effort.
57:18
Awesome.
57:18
Thank you.
57:19
Thank you.
57:36
you