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What Happens "When Women Lead": with CNBC's Julia Boorstin · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:08
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
0:12
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
0:15
Speaker 1: pretty this.
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Speaker 2: Is pretty smart.
0:19
Speaker 1: My goal for today's episode is that you leave feeling
0:22
Speaker 1: two things. One inspired to lead and in whatever that
0:28
Speaker 1: means to you. Lead a trip with your friends, lead
0:30
Speaker 1: a business, lead your relationship. I want you to feel
0:34
Speaker 1: inspired to lead, and two with a deep knowing that
0:39
Speaker 1: everything you're looking for and everything you need is actually
0:43
Speaker 1: inside of you. And sure that can sound a little
0:47
Speaker 1: woo woo, but our guest today has the facts and
0:51
Speaker 1: the stats to back it up. So if you do
0:54
Speaker 1: leave feeling those two things, send this episode to a
0:58
Speaker 1: woman in your life that you know and you feel
1:01
Speaker 1: is powerful. Let them know and send them this episode,
1:06
Speaker 1: because here's the thing. Women are so powerful, but sometimes
1:12
Speaker 1: we don't believe in our own power or even know
1:15
Speaker 1: just how powerful we are. What if the parts of
1:18
Speaker 1: us that we've been trained to dial down is actually
1:21
Speaker 1: the stuff that great leaders are made of. I think
1:25
Speaker 1: most of us probably have this in common. At one
1:28
Speaker 1: time or another. In our lives. We've been told or
1:31
Speaker 1: too much of something too emotional, too shy, too ambitious,
1:36
Speaker 1: too inquisitive. I've often gotten too sensitive. But what if
1:40
Speaker 1: I told you that your biggest quote unquote weakness could
1:45
Speaker 1: actually be one of your greatest strengths. Maybe you're emotional,
1:52
Speaker 1: but what that really means is you're filled with empathy
1:55
Speaker 1: and are great at connecting with people and more likely
1:57
Speaker 1: to consider diverse points of view. Or you've been told
2:00
Speaker 1: you can't lead because you're shy, But what if that
2:03
Speaker 1: actually means you spend a lot more time listening and
2:06
Speaker 1: therefore learning. Julia Borsten is our guest today. She's a
2:13
Speaker 1: CNBC reporter and author, and she discovered this flip the
2:17
Speaker 1: script mentality when researching female leaders for her new book,
2:21
Speaker 1: When Women Lead. Julia spoke with over one hundred and
2:24
Speaker 1: twenty female leaders, including Goops, Gwyneth Paltrow, Bumble Ceo, Whitney
2:29
Speaker 1: Wolf Heard, Jen Hyman from Rent the Runway, Lena Waith,
2:33
Speaker 1: and many more names you've heard of and some really
2:35
Speaker 1: powerful ones that you haven't. These women found a lot
2:38
Speaker 1: of different strategies to success, and while they approach situations differently,
2:43
Speaker 1: Julia did find one thing that they all have in common.
2:48
Speaker 1: It honestly surprised me. And you know what else surprised me?
2:52
Speaker 1: Stock prices increase when a company has a female CEO.
2:57
Speaker 2: Can you believe that?
2:59
Speaker 3: How is that not more widely known? We are diving into.
3:01
Speaker 1: Why and a whole lot more today we're chatting about
3:05
Speaker 1: what happens when women lead and why we are actually
3:10
Speaker 1: the leaders we've been looking for. So I opened the
3:20
Speaker 1: book after I read the whole thing, I was opening
3:21
Speaker 1: to a prep for the interview, and right here it
3:24
Speaker 1: says it's time to rewrite the rules of success. And
3:27
Speaker 1: then I read that that quote meant something to you
3:31
Speaker 1: different than what I thought.
3:32
Speaker 3: So can you tell everybody what that quote means to you?
3:35
Speaker 2: Oh? Tell me what you mean.
3:36
Speaker 1: Well, when I read it, I thought like, okay, like
3:39
Speaker 1: it's time for women to rewrite. I thought it was
3:41
Speaker 1: like a quippy tagline. And then I read further and
3:45
Speaker 1: your mom said it to you when you were thirteen.
3:48
Speaker 2: Well, so what my mom said to me when I
3:50
Speaker 2: was thirteen was that when I grew up, everything was
3:52
Speaker 2: going to be different. And when she grew up, she
3:54
Speaker 2: was told you could be either a nurse or a teacher,
3:57
Speaker 2: and like that was it. And then you're gonna get married,
3:59
Speaker 2: and you're gonna have kids, take care of your family,
4:00
Speaker 2: and like that was going to be the limit of
4:02
Speaker 2: your professional opportunities. But what's interesting, just to go back
4:05
Speaker 2: to that line, is that I read dozens and dozens
4:10
Speaker 2: of business books in my twenty two years as a
4:13
Speaker 2: business journalist, and there are literally rules that have been
4:16
Speaker 2: written about, like the rules to be a good leader,
4:18
Speaker 2: the rules to be a good executive. And there is
4:21
Speaker 2: this whole like archive of library full of books about
4:26
Speaker 2: business success, and none of them are about women. And
4:29
Speaker 2: sometimes there are women included in them, but none of
4:32
Speaker 2: them are really about women. And so for me, what
4:35
Speaker 2: I wanted this book to do was redefine what success
4:38
Speaker 2: looks like and to include an incredible diversity of women
4:42
Speaker 2: with different backgrounds in that image. So when my mom
4:46
Speaker 2: told me, oh, by the time you grew up, everything
4:48
Speaker 2: is going to be different, what she was saying is like,
4:50
Speaker 2: of course women will be running companies. Of course women
4:52
Speaker 2: will be incredibly powerful in politics and government, Like the
4:56
Speaker 2: time has come, and she was wrong, But now I
5:00
Speaker 2: think that time is now, if that makes sense, The.
5:03
Speaker 3: Time has finally come.
5:05
Speaker 1: But also what I was thinking, because you talk about
5:07
Speaker 1: having a great mentor, and he was a man, and
5:11
Speaker 1: you said he kind of treated you like you were
5:12
Speaker 1: his daughter.
5:14
Speaker 2: I think he treated me the way he would want
5:16
Speaker 2: someone to have treated his daughter, And the fact that
5:19
Speaker 2: he had daughters made him think like how do I
5:22
Speaker 2: want my daughters to be treated? And how can I
5:24
Speaker 2: give that kind of mentorship to this young woman who
5:27
Speaker 2: was like so eager and trying so hard and probably
5:30
Speaker 2: so scared of so many things, Like how can I
5:32
Speaker 2: give her that kind of kind mentorship and guidance.
5:37
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of my mentors have been men also,
5:41
Speaker 1: and I think in part it's because there aren't a
5:45
Speaker 1: ton of women, yes, that were doing it. There were some,
5:48
Speaker 1: but I think in journalism like it was, there was
5:51
Speaker 1: like one woman, and so the generation above me was
5:54
Speaker 1: like very competitive. There wasn't like that urge to help
5:58
Speaker 1: the way there is now. So I think when you
6:01
Speaker 1: wrote this it kind of like provided that blueprint for
6:05
Speaker 1: people who don't have mentors yet, which was really cool.
6:08
Speaker 2: But also I hope that it helps explain that mentorship
6:13
Speaker 2: comes in all sorts of different shapes and sizes. There
6:16
Speaker 2: isn't just a one size fit all version of what
6:19
Speaker 2: mentorship looks like. And my boss at the time was
6:22
Speaker 2: my mentor, and that was a very specific relationship. But
6:26
Speaker 2: I think what I've seen in this in writing this book,
6:29
Speaker 2: and also in talking to hundreds of women around the country,
6:32
Speaker 2: is that just like we need to rewrite the rules
6:34
Speaker 2: of success, we also need to rewrite what mentorship looks
6:37
Speaker 2: like and what we expect from mentorship. And what I've
6:39
Speaker 2: found so interesting is so many women have told me
6:42
Speaker 2: that some of the best professional advice they've gotten are
6:44
Speaker 2: from women who are at their same level, maybe at
6:46
Speaker 2: other companies, maybe in totally different fields, but to be
6:50
Speaker 2: able to have trusting professional relationships where you talk about
6:53
Speaker 2: your work challenges and opportunities with people who are going
6:56
Speaker 2: to push you and hold you accountable. They don't always
6:58
Speaker 2: have to be your boss or more and your to you.
7:00
Speaker 2: Sometimes they could be someone who's at your level. And
7:02
Speaker 2: I found so many women created what they called like
7:06
Speaker 2: a board of directors of people who'd be like they
7:09
Speaker 2: air board of mentors, and like they'd go to one
7:12
Speaker 2: person for one type of advice and another person for
7:14
Speaker 2: another type of advice. And they didn't get everything they
7:17
Speaker 2: needed from one person, because you never do. But it's
7:19
Speaker 2: just like you have lots of different friends, they had
7:21
Speaker 2: a lot of different people who could fill different holes
7:24
Speaker 2: for them when they needed them. And I think it's
7:26
Speaker 2: also time to rethink what it means to have mentors
7:29
Speaker 2: and to have a support of professional network, because it
7:32
Speaker 2: is so essential to success in business and in life,
7:35
Speaker 2: and I think people need to sort of redefine what
7:37
Speaker 2: that looks like as well.
7:39
Speaker 1: So you interned for Vice President Al Gore's domestic policy office,
7:42
Speaker 1: and then right out of Princeton you worked at Fortune magazine,
7:46
Speaker 1: and then you've been in media at CNBC as a
7:49
Speaker 1: business reporter. How have you seen the rules being different
7:54
Speaker 1: from men and women.
7:55
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because when I started off, and I
7:58
Speaker 2: was thinking about all those business books that were like
8:00
Speaker 2: the rules to succeed in business. When I started off,
8:02
Speaker 2: there was this very dominant archetype of the leader, and
8:06
Speaker 2: he was a man in a suit, and there was
8:08
Speaker 2: this whole theory of leadership that came from ge CEO
8:11
Speaker 2: Jack Welsh, and it was this thing called six sigma
8:14
Speaker 2: and it involved cutting the bottom ten percent and delegating
8:17
Speaker 2: and splitting up a company and it was all it
8:19
Speaker 2: was just a very specific approach to business. It doesn't
8:22
Speaker 2: work for every type of company, and it's not right
8:25
Speaker 2: for every leader, but it was so embraced and idolized
8:29
Speaker 2: that it became like this thing in business. And it
8:32
Speaker 2: was interesting because like that is what the rule of,
8:35
Speaker 2: Like that's what it took to be a successful leader.
8:37
Speaker 2: You had to be a man, you had to lead
8:38
Speaker 2: a certain way. If you were a woman, you understood
8:40
Speaker 2: that there was only room for one of you in
8:41
Speaker 2: the room, so you didn't have an incentive to help
8:43
Speaker 2: bring other women behind you. And I've really seen the
8:46
Speaker 2: business culture change, especially in the past ten years, and
8:50
Speaker 2: I think there's this been this real shift towards understanding
8:53
Speaker 2: that women are like I want other women around me.
8:55
Speaker 2: I'm going to be more successful if I have more
8:57
Speaker 2: women around me. And then logistically, companies understood that they
9:01
Speaker 2: had to have more than just one woman in the
9:02
Speaker 2: room so that woman didn't feel so threatened by having
9:05
Speaker 2: other women around her. So I think, you know, it
9:07
Speaker 2: makes sense if you were in nineteen ninety two in
9:09
Speaker 2: finance and you knew there was only room for one woman,
9:12
Speaker 2: that you weren't going to help other women. You just
9:13
Speaker 2: couldn't possibly if you were going to hold onto your job,
9:16
Speaker 2: But now I think i'd see I know, I see
9:19
Speaker 2: women all over the country and even I was in
9:21
Speaker 2: London talking about my book, all over the world, really
9:24
Speaker 2: understanding that they will be more successful if they help
9:27
Speaker 2: other women too, and that you need more women with you,
9:30
Speaker 2: and you need more people from underrepresented groups to shift
9:33
Speaker 2: the culture and to really change the culture. And I
9:36
Speaker 2: think it's a much more supportive environment. And I actually
9:39
Speaker 2: think that that was started maybe ten years ago. But
9:42
Speaker 2: what really changed was during the pandemic, and the pandemic
9:46
Speaker 2: sort of laid bare the craziness of everyone's life, and
9:50
Speaker 2: every leader had to think about being more authentic and
9:52
Speaker 2: vulnerable because everyone was going through so much. And I
9:55
Speaker 2: actually think that the pandemic shed light on the fact
9:59
Speaker 2: that some skills and strategies that female leaders are more
10:02
Speaker 2: likely to deploy are actually things that are essential and
10:05
Speaker 2: our table stakes for everyone right now.
10:08
Speaker 3: Interesting.
10:09
Speaker 1: Okay, So when because I've heard you say that you
10:12
Speaker 1: didn't notice or think about inequality while you were growing
10:16
Speaker 1: up as much, and you didn't think about it at Princeton,
10:19
Speaker 1: and then you got to Fortune magazine and you felt
10:21
Speaker 1: it for the first time, what did you see and feel?
10:24
Speaker 2: Well, so when I was growing up, my mom told me, oh,
10:26
Speaker 2: by the time you grew up, you'll be able to
10:27
Speaker 2: do anything. I felt like my whole academic career, everything
10:31
Speaker 2: was very equitable and if I worked hard, I could succeed.
10:34
Speaker 2: And then I got to Fortune magazine, which was the
10:36
Speaker 2: you know, the magazine of record for the business world,
10:39
Speaker 2: and we put the most powerful people on the cover.
10:42
Speaker 2: We had the most powerful CEOs coming into the doors
10:44
Speaker 2: of our offices, and we did the Fortune five hundred list,
10:47
Speaker 2: and it was there was no question once I saw
10:50
Speaker 2: the way it all worked, laid bare in front of
10:52
Speaker 2: me on the pages of the magazine, that men held
10:55
Speaker 2: almost all the most powerful positions in business, full stop.
10:59
Speaker 2: And if you looked at the people in power at
11:02
Speaker 2: the magazine, they were mostly men. They were a couple
11:04
Speaker 2: of women, but women got more and more rare the
11:06
Speaker 2: more senior you got. So people at my level, the
11:09
Speaker 2: entry level, they were split fifty to fifty, no question,
11:12
Speaker 2: maybe even a couple more women. But at every level
11:15
Speaker 2: beyond that, women left to have kids, to do whatever.
11:18
Speaker 2: They didn't feel like they were succeeding there, So you
11:20
Speaker 2: just saw fewer women in the most senior ranks. So
11:23
Speaker 2: it just all became kind of clear to me that
11:26
Speaker 2: my mom had been totally wrong, and the fact that
11:28
Speaker 2: I believed her was very naive of me. And on
11:31
Speaker 2: one hand, I was grateful that I got to be
11:34
Speaker 2: naive and optimistic and not hampered by all of that,
11:37
Speaker 2: and the other hand, I wish I had had a
11:39
Speaker 2: little bit more of an education of what to expect
11:41
Speaker 2: and how to navigate it. Yeah, this is a very
11:44
Speaker 2: different time. In the year two thousand when I started
11:46
Speaker 2: as a magazine reporter, they had until very recently had
11:49
Speaker 2: these like bar carts that would go around on Fridays
11:52
Speaker 2: and mix people drinks. You know, it was like a
11:54
Speaker 2: very different era that in many ways was much more
11:57
Speaker 2: similar to the Matinen era than you can possibly matter.
12:01
Speaker 1: So you have some stories about how in the early
12:03
Speaker 1: days of being on camera, men treated you, I would say,
12:07
Speaker 1: interestingly differently, differently, differently, it is probably a better word.
12:12
Speaker 1: When the cameras weren't rolling. Is there a story that
12:15
Speaker 1: sticks out to you that you think sort of illustrates.
12:17
Speaker 2: That I was saying when the cameras weren't rolling, And
12:20
Speaker 2: also when the cameras were rolling, I felt very condescended
12:24
Speaker 2: to on camera. Many times, but I think I will
12:27
Speaker 2: always remember going to the Consumer Electronic Show. It's this
12:31
Speaker 2: big tech show in Las Vegas when it was January
12:34
Speaker 2: and I was pregnant to have my second son in March,
12:37
Speaker 2: so I was like really pregnant. I was like six
12:40
Speaker 2: weeks away from giving birth and I was massive, and
12:42
Speaker 2: I was sitting there up on a stand like getting
12:45
Speaker 2: ready to interview people. I had like tons of interviews
12:47
Speaker 2: booked with CEOs, and the number of them that came
12:50
Speaker 2: in and either commented on my body in ways that
12:54
Speaker 2: was totally inappropriate or touched my belly without asking me,
12:58
Speaker 2: I was like, what is happening here? And I was
13:01
Speaker 2: like this is crazy, Like why is this guy rubbing
13:04
Speaker 2: my belly and talking about the size of my breast
13:07
Speaker 2: moments before We're gonna have a live interview and I'm
13:09
Speaker 2: an interview about his business. It was just bananas. So
13:11
Speaker 2: for me that was a real turning point because I
13:15
Speaker 2: was like, look, this is insane, but I need to
13:17
Speaker 2: keep it together and I need to keep my call
13:21
Speaker 2: my cool and be prepared to ask them the same
13:23
Speaker 2: questions I was going to ask them before these inappropriate comments, and.
13:26
Speaker 1: I need to just not lose it here, So I
13:29
Speaker 1: sort of have some moments differently that I actually feel
13:33
Speaker 1: a lot of shame around because I'm frustrated that I
13:35
Speaker 1: didn't speak up.
13:36
Speaker 3: I didn't have the vocabulary or the confidence.
13:39
Speaker 1: To do it.
13:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, in reflection, how do you feel about your moments?
13:42
Speaker 2: I feel like that was was actually an empowering moment
13:45
Speaker 2: for me, and I'll tell you why, because I realized
13:49
Speaker 2: that I had a job to do, and these guys
13:52
Speaker 2: were reacting to me in this way because it was
13:54
Speaker 2: so foreign and unusual to them.
13:55
Speaker 3: Here.
13:56
Speaker 2: I was a journalist, and I didn't look like what
13:59
Speaker 2: they expected me to look like. I was sort of
14:02
Speaker 2: not in sync with their expectation of a business journalist, right,
14:06
Speaker 2: And they felt uncomfortable with me being so massively pregnant,
14:11
Speaker 2: and they expressed that discomfort, you know, like sometimes when
14:13
Speaker 2: you're uncomfortably laughed. Like they were expressing that discomfort by
14:16
Speaker 2: like talking about it and making comments maybe to make
14:19
Speaker 2: themselves feel better with it. And up until that point,
14:22
Speaker 2: I really felt like I needed to hide the fact
14:24
Speaker 2: that I was a woman, or like to hie, you know,
14:26
Speaker 2: diminish my femaleness. And then I was like, there's nothing
14:30
Speaker 2: I could do about this. I am super pregnant. I
14:33
Speaker 2: am super pregnant, visibly sitting in a chair, you know,
14:36
Speaker 2: seven and a half months pregnant, whatever it was. And
14:39
Speaker 2: to me, it was just like, if I can let
14:41
Speaker 2: this not bother me, I will be more successful because
14:44
Speaker 2: they are uncomfortable, right, if I don't have to be uncomfortable.
14:47
Speaker 2: They can be uncomfortable, but it doesn't have to make
14:49
Speaker 2: me uncomfortable.
14:50
Speaker 3: That's amazing that you had the language to give your life.
14:54
Speaker 2: I don't even know if I understood it then, but
14:56
Speaker 2: I knew. I was like, I'm not going to let
14:57
Speaker 2: this screw up my interview like these I'm not going
15:01
Speaker 2: to let this throw me off my game, because then
15:02
Speaker 2: they're winning. If I keep my cool, then I'm doing
15:05
Speaker 2: my job. If they throw me off and I start
15:07
Speaker 2: to cry, then they went and that's not going to happen.
15:11
Speaker 1: That's I think one of the things that comes with
15:13
Speaker 1: experience that's so valuable.
15:16
Speaker 3: As you become you don't let other people shake you.
15:19
Speaker 2: But I also think one thing, and the reason why
15:20
Speaker 2: my book is so heavy, which you joked about at
15:22
Speaker 2: the beginning, is I have forty pages of endnotes in there,
15:26
Speaker 2: and I decided that my book wasn't going to just
15:28
Speaker 2: be about the stories of inspiring women, but also about
15:31
Speaker 2: the data, the numbers. There are so many different research
15:35
Speaker 2: studies that explain why the ways in which women lead
15:38
Speaker 2: and the fact that I have to show up as
15:40
Speaker 2: my full, bregnant self as work is going to actually
15:42
Speaker 2: make me better at my job. And when I was
15:45
Speaker 2: going through the process of reporting this book, I realized
15:48
Speaker 2: that it's really important to have the data in there,
15:51
Speaker 2: because the data has enabled me to be liberated, to
15:54
Speaker 2: not let things bother me, and also to know how
15:56
Speaker 2: to have those comebacks and know what to say in
15:58
Speaker 2: those terrible situations. And when I was reading through all
16:02
Speaker 2: this research, I found myself every day getting more and
16:05
Speaker 2: more confident because I realized that those things that used
16:07
Speaker 2: to throw me off really had nothing to do with me.
16:11
Speaker 2: And so the more I saw the research, I was like, Oh,
16:13
Speaker 2: I should be more confident. Oh imposter syndrome. That's a
16:16
Speaker 2: real thing. It's not just me cool And so there
16:19
Speaker 2: was something so liberating about all that research. So that's
16:22
Speaker 2: why there's so much data in the book, and I
16:24
Speaker 2: think it's really I hope it's really useful. I know
16:26
Speaker 2: it's been really useful for a lot of people.
16:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think to I mean, you have the facts,
16:30
Speaker 1: you have numbers, you have stats. It's not just like
16:33
Speaker 1: the idea that it feels good or it's a good
16:35
Speaker 1: thing to do. It's that it's actually valuable and profitable.
16:39
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And by the way, there are a
16:41
Speaker 2: lot of stories in my book that feel good to me.
16:44
Speaker 2: It was a gift to report this book during the
16:46
Speaker 2: pandemic because the stories are so inspiring and it feels
16:49
Speaker 2: so good to see parts of yourself and these women
16:52
Speaker 2: who are doing extraordinary things, and also to see that
16:55
Speaker 2: there are people who are changing the world. I mean,
16:57
Speaker 2: it just feels so good to read these stories. But
16:59
Speaker 2: I think that data in a way is like the
17:01
Speaker 2: thing that makes you stronger. At the end of the day,
17:04
Speaker 2: you have the inspiration, but then you have the thing
17:05
Speaker 2: that can make you tougher and stronger to go navigate
17:08
Speaker 2: whatever challenges are out there for you.
17:10
Speaker 1: Okay, So one data point that you include is there's
17:14
Speaker 1: a study that finds when a company has a female CEO,
17:17
Speaker 1: stock prices actually increase by twenty percent, profits increase by
17:21
Speaker 1: six percent, and stock returns increase by eight percent.
17:25
Speaker 3: What do you make of those numbers?
17:27
Speaker 2: Well, look, there are a lot of different studies like that,
17:29
Speaker 2: and I think what's interesting is if you don't like
17:30
Speaker 2: one of the studies, there are other similar ones. Female
17:33
Speaker 2: leadership tends to correlate with better outcomes. Some people would
17:36
Speaker 2: say that's because there are so few female leaders. Women
17:39
Speaker 2: have had to fight extra hard to get to where
17:41
Speaker 2: they are, so only the best ones make it, and
17:44
Speaker 2: therefore and therefore they're more successful. So that could be
17:47
Speaker 2: one reason why, but it also could be because women
17:50
Speaker 2: are leading in different ways and because they understand that
17:53
Speaker 2: they're facing extra scrutiny because they are so rare, and
17:56
Speaker 2: therefore they have to be very thoughtful and very considered,
18:00
Speaker 2: very data driven in their decision making and driven by
18:03
Speaker 2: data and not by ego or assumptions. And so I
18:07
Speaker 2: think the more you understand that you're under a microscope,
18:10
Speaker 2: the more you really are going to push yourself to
18:12
Speaker 2: be incredibly careful. I knew that I would be under
18:14
Speaker 2: a microscope for writing about the great ways of women lead,
18:16
Speaker 2: and that's why, again I relied on the data.
18:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no room for air.
18:21
Speaker 2: There's no room for air, and and so there are
18:23
Speaker 2: lots of women reasons why maybe female leadership styles are
18:26
Speaker 2: more successful. But I also think at the end of
18:29
Speaker 2: the day, you have to think about how pressure can
18:32
Speaker 2: turn colon into diamonds, you know. And then also, I
18:35
Speaker 2: write extensively in the book, but the ways in which
18:38
Speaker 2: women tend to lead, the skills and strategies women are
18:40
Speaker 2: more likely to deploy, are incredibly valuable in a business
18:45
Speaker 2: in a business environment.
18:46
Speaker 1: Well, one of those that you talk about is the
18:48
Speaker 1: ability to adapt and change quickly, and I agree with it,
18:54
Speaker 1: and I just couldn't figure out why. Why is that
18:57
Speaker 1: a typically female trait?
18:59
Speaker 2: So I was really surprised to find in the research
19:02
Speaker 2: that women are more likely to make swift decisions when
19:05
Speaker 2: the situation changes. I know, sometimes I'm good at making
19:08
Speaker 2: fast decisions and other times it takes me forever to
19:11
Speaker 2: make up my mind. And I was like, oh, this
19:12
Speaker 2: is so interesting that women are more likely to say
19:14
Speaker 2: the situation is changing. Let me evaluate the data, and
19:17
Speaker 2: then I'm going to make a decision not based on
19:19
Speaker 2: the fact that I feel attached to a plan I
19:21
Speaker 2: made six months ago. I'm not going to be emotionally
19:24
Speaker 2: attached to this thing. I invested time and money, and
19:27
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm watching the data change. I'm going to
19:29
Speaker 2: use the data to look around corners. And I saw
19:32
Speaker 2: play out in so many amazing different examples in the book.
19:35
Speaker 2: So like the CEO of Clear, the biometrics company that
19:37
Speaker 2: you used to use just to get you through the
19:39
Speaker 2: airport at the beginning of the pandemic, she was like,
19:42
Speaker 2: this pandemic thing is it's going to shut down all travel.
19:46
Speaker 2: It was February, a month before the world really shut down,
19:49
Speaker 2: and she cut their entire AD spend for the year.
19:52
Speaker 2: She made a swift decision. She adapted to the situation.
19:55
Speaker 2: She didn't wait to see if maybe things would get better.
19:57
Speaker 2: She said, I know we're going to be more effective,
19:59
Speaker 2: more successful. We can make the painful decision now to
20:02
Speaker 2: cut twenty four million dollars in AD spending now and
20:04
Speaker 2: not wait for it to get better. It's going to
20:06
Speaker 2: be better for our partners, it's going to be better
20:07
Speaker 2: for us for the long term. And she also said,
20:10
Speaker 2: let's invest in the long term. Women have a lot
20:13
Speaker 2: of different characteristics that correlate with longer term planning and
20:16
Speaker 2: decision making, so she said, we need to invest now
20:19
Speaker 2: to turn biometrics into a health company. So then they
20:22
Speaker 2: created the Health Pass, the clear Health Pass to get
20:24
Speaker 2: people in and out of offices. If you go to
20:26
Speaker 2: a conference, you might have to upload your vaccine information
20:29
Speaker 2: or your COVID test informationating. So this combination of making
20:32
Speaker 2: swift decisions immediately to address the immediate crisis and then
20:37
Speaker 2: planning long term, and there's so many reasons why women
20:40
Speaker 2: are more likely to think of do that balance of
20:42
Speaker 2: the long term and short term planning, and it's so
20:45
Speaker 2: essential for business.
20:46
Speaker 1: It feels really exciting to hear that because I think
20:50
Speaker 1: everything I was shown and taught from society growing up
20:54
Speaker 1: is that men have great foresight and men actually have
20:58
Speaker 1: great long term strategy and planning, and to know from
21:02
Speaker 1: the data that women actually do is very cool.
21:05
Speaker 2: But what's so interesting is that there's this this sort
21:08
Speaker 2: of myth of the male visionary. Right, Yes, someone who
21:12
Speaker 2: has a vision like Mark Zuckerberg had a vision, Elon
21:14
Speaker 2: Musk has a vision, this crazy vision of how they're
21:18
Speaker 2: going to change the world.
21:19
Speaker 1: It's kind of like this Boy Wonder thing though that's
21:21
Speaker 1: the boys.
21:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Boy Wonder has this crazy idea going to
21:27
Speaker 2: change the world. Interestingly, men are more likely to found companies.
21:30
Speaker 2: There are more men found in companies very very young,
21:32
Speaker 2: like either when they're in college or straight out of college.
21:35
Speaker 2: Women are more likely to wait, and their various studies
21:37
Speaker 2: about this not comprehensive data. But in my book, I
21:40
Speaker 2: write about many women who started their companies in their forties, fifties,
21:43
Speaker 2: and sixties. A lot of this comes down to the
21:45
Speaker 2: fact that men start off when they enter the workforce
21:49
Speaker 2: with much higher confidence. Women's start off with lower confidence.
21:52
Speaker 2: Men's confidence tends to decline and women's confidence tends to increase,
21:55
Speaker 2: and it criss crosses around age forty way. Yeah, and
22:00
Speaker 2: so what's interesting is that women's confidence increases with experience
22:04
Speaker 2: and age and wisdom, you know, like you get you
22:06
Speaker 2: should be wiser as you get older, and men's confidence decreases.
22:09
Speaker 2: And the researchers thought maybe that was because men realize
22:12
Speaker 2: they may not achieve all of their dreams, or they
22:15
Speaker 2: maybe realized that they didn't know as much as they
22:17
Speaker 2: thought they did in the first place. So there are
22:19
Speaker 2: a couple of different reasons for that, but it's really
22:21
Speaker 2: interesting to see how oftentimes, you know, being a visionary
22:25
Speaker 2: is not the only thing that it takes to have
22:26
Speaker 2: a successful company. And I do think that as a
22:29
Speaker 2: society we're very focused on these few rare examples of
22:33
Speaker 2: people like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk. But the reality
22:36
Speaker 2: is that most businesses take someone who's going to work hard,
22:40
Speaker 2: focus on the numbers, and have a lot of the
22:42
Speaker 2: long term sort of technical planning skills that women may
22:46
Speaker 2: be more likely to focus on. And I think, frankly,
22:49
Speaker 2: there are a lot of male CEOs who are not
22:50
Speaker 2: these crazy visionaries, but who have built incredibly successful businesses
22:54
Speaker 2: by just doing you know, putting one step in front
22:57
Speaker 2: of the other and thinking long term at the same time.
23:00
Speaker 1: Actually, the Biger's whole philosophy, like his whole book is
23:03
Speaker 1: about his whole book is basically about like brick by brick, like.
23:08
Speaker 2: Brick by brick, And I think that, by the way,
23:09
Speaker 2: like he's not a crazy visionary, he's like a practical visionary.
23:12
Speaker 2: And I think that there is less attention there's there's
23:16
Speaker 2: let me put this way, there's so much attention on
23:18
Speaker 2: the crazy visionary approach to the world that I think
23:21
Speaker 2: the more practical brick and you know, brick by brick
23:24
Speaker 2: approach has sometimes been overlooked. I was talking with a
23:27
Speaker 2: young woman at one of my book signings, and she said,
23:30
Speaker 2: you know, I'm working at a startup. I have this
23:32
Speaker 2: idea I want to start. I'd like to start a company.
23:34
Speaker 2: I think it's a really good idea. I've done market research,
23:36
Speaker 2: she said. But you know, I think I'm more of
23:37
Speaker 2: a COO type. I don't really think i'm the CEO.
23:41
Speaker 2: And I said, why not, Like you've done the research,
23:43
Speaker 2: you have the idea, Like, why wouldn't you be the CEO?
23:46
Speaker 2: She said, I don't know. I just don't think I'm
23:47
Speaker 2: like I'm like a crazy visionary, like a crazy risk
23:50
Speaker 2: taking visionary. I'm a more like get it done type executive.
23:54
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, there's no reason that if
23:56
Speaker 2: you have an idea, you did the market research, you
23:58
Speaker 2: have the experience, you couldn't start a company. But for her,
24:01
Speaker 2: there was this myth that she needed to be like
24:03
Speaker 2: ready to do something crazy, to be the theater, the CEO,
24:09
Speaker 2: the face of the company. And so I said, read
24:11
Speaker 2: my book and let's talk. But I think that there's
24:14
Speaker 2: nothing about her and her experience that wouldn't make her
24:16
Speaker 2: a reasonable person to be the CEO of a company.
24:19
Speaker 2: She doesn't need to find a CEO. She could be
24:21
Speaker 2: the CEO herself.
24:23
Speaker 1: I really like the idea of thinking that success doesn't
24:26
Speaker 1: look like a Mark Zuckerberg or a Boy Wonder type.
24:30
Speaker 1: Can you give me some examples of unique leadership styles
24:33
Speaker 1: that stood out to you while you were writing the book.
24:36
Speaker 2: I mean, there are so many different ones, but I
24:38
Speaker 2: have to flag this amazing woman named Jennifer Holmgren. She's
24:42
Speaker 2: the CEO of a biotech company that you've probably not
24:44
Speaker 2: heard of. It's called Lanza Tech, but they're areeotech. Even me,
24:47
Speaker 2: Biotech means like biotechnology, so it's basically using technology to
24:52
Speaker 2: do things that are biological. So for instance, i'll give
24:54
Speaker 2: you more than you want to know about Lanza Tech,
24:56
Speaker 2: but they have a technology that trends pollution into fuel.
25:00
Speaker 2: So they literally took like a microbe, like a little
25:03
Speaker 2: like microbe, and the microbe eats up pollution, digests it,
25:08
Speaker 2: and basically poops out fuel. That's so cool, and that's
25:12
Speaker 2: the way she described it to me. So she was
25:13
Speaker 2: talking about just like the way that you can like
25:16
Speaker 2: use yeast to make beer and like it, yeah, sugar
25:19
Speaker 2: in it whatever. So basically it's like eating up the
25:22
Speaker 2: pollution and pooping out the fuel, and it's like it
25:25
Speaker 2: sounds like magic to me, because obviously you want to
25:27
Speaker 2: get rid of pollution and create more fuel, and so
25:30
Speaker 2: it's a crazy, amazing technology. And Jennifer Holmgren is the CEO,
25:34
Speaker 2: is a Colombian immigrant. She moved to the US when
25:36
Speaker 2: she was eight years old. She speaks an incredibly quiet voice,
25:40
Speaker 2: very very introverted, and with a slight and perceptible accent,
25:44
Speaker 2: but she would definitely rather not speak. She's someone who
25:48
Speaker 2: talks about hating to do interviews. She's just not into it.
25:50
Speaker 2: She loves her company. She's passionate at her company, but
25:53
Speaker 2: she's not an extrovert. And first of all, she's so
25:57
Speaker 2: passionate about this company and using this tech company to
26:01
Speaker 2: make a lot of money for investors but also to
26:03
Speaker 2: help the environment that she's willing to push herself out
26:07
Speaker 2: of her comfort zone and to do pitch meetings with
26:09
Speaker 2: investors and also to pitch her technology to factories who
26:12
Speaker 2: could use their technology to turn pollution into fuel. So
26:15
Speaker 2: I think her passion for this purpose driven company has
26:19
Speaker 2: helped her overcome her reluctance for wanting to get up
26:22
Speaker 2: in front of a room and speak but even more importantly,
26:24
Speaker 2: she figured out how to use her unique trait of
26:27
Speaker 2: being an introvert and to use that to become such
26:29
Speaker 2: a good listener that she's actually better at negotiating. I said,
26:34
Speaker 2: what do you mean, Like, why are you better at
26:35
Speaker 2: negotiating if you're not like out there slamming the table
26:37
Speaker 2: telling people how greg your technology is. And she says, no.
26:40
Speaker 2: I give my presentation, which I don't enjoy, but I
26:42
Speaker 2: do it because I'd rather not be in front of
26:44
Speaker 2: a room making a speech. But afterwards, I listen to people.
26:48
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to get a word in edgewise, I'm
26:50
Speaker 2: not trying to put on a show, and I listen
26:52
Speaker 2: to them so well and so carefully that I understand
26:55
Speaker 2: what it is that they really want, not what they
26:57
Speaker 2: said that they wanted at the beginning, but what they
26:59
Speaker 2: really want, and I could come to them with a
27:01
Speaker 2: better negotiating stance. And so, to me, what was so
27:04
Speaker 2: fascinating about her leadership style is that she understood who
27:07
Speaker 2: she really was, what she liked, what she was good at,
27:09
Speaker 2: what she could push herself to be better at. But
27:11
Speaker 2: then she took that thing which has been used as
27:15
Speaker 2: a weakness, has been described as a weakness. Introversion has
27:18
Speaker 2: been described as a weakness in business. She took it
27:20
Speaker 2: and she deployed it as a strength. And I think
27:23
Speaker 2: success in leadership is all about understanding who you really are,
27:27
Speaker 2: pushing yourself to get better where you can, surrounding yourself
27:30
Speaker 2: with people who can compliment you, but then also taking
27:33
Speaker 2: these these things that we've always thought of as flaws
27:37
Speaker 2: and deploying them at superpowers.
27:39
Speaker 3: There's all of these examples.
27:41
Speaker 1: I think after or during the girl Boss era of
27:44
Speaker 1: female leadership that kind of saw fizzle out or burnout.
27:48
Speaker 1: I would say women who built companies and then for
27:52
Speaker 1: various reasons, took a step back.
27:54
Speaker 2: Well, there's I mean, there are two things. Are the
27:55
Speaker 2: women who were canceled by the media or criticized by
27:58
Speaker 2: the media, and they're women who opted to sell rather
28:02
Speaker 2: than to keep fighting.
28:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, the women who were burnt out. You hear those
28:07
Speaker 3: stories a lot.
28:09
Speaker 1: Did you hear any stories of women who found incredible joy?
28:12
Speaker 3: Leading?
28:14
Speaker 2: So many stories And in fact, I think burnout is real.
28:17
Speaker 2: I felt it. I know everyone has felt it at
28:19
Speaker 2: one point or another. But I do think that all
28:21
Speaker 2: the women in my book genuinely and I interviewed sixty women.
28:25
Speaker 2: I feature sixty women in the book, but I interviewed
28:27
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty women. All of them felt joy
28:29
Speaker 2: in their companies and understood that the challenges and the
28:33
Speaker 2: frustrations and the tears and the pulling out your hair
28:37
Speaker 2: was part of something that they really believed in. And
28:39
Speaker 2: one reason I think so many of them felt joy
28:42
Speaker 2: in it is because many of them had purpose driven companies,
28:46
Speaker 2: had the sense that if they succeeded, they weren't just
28:48
Speaker 2: going to be making money, they were also going to
28:50
Speaker 2: be helping people. And there are a lot of reasons
28:52
Speaker 2: why purpose driven companies tend to be more successful. It
28:55
Speaker 2: tends to be easier to hire and retain talent if
28:58
Speaker 2: the young people you're hiring know they're doing something good
29:01
Speaker 2: in addition to just making money for their bosses. It's
29:04
Speaker 2: easier to sell products to consumers that the consumers say, well,
29:06
Speaker 2: do I want to buy this thing that's just another
29:09
Speaker 2: object or something that's also good for the environment. And
29:12
Speaker 2: then at the end of the day, so many entrepreneurs
29:14
Speaker 2: told me that when the times get got tough, I said,
29:17
Speaker 2: why didn't you quit? Why didn't you give up? I
29:19
Speaker 2: would have given up. That sounds impossibly hard, and they
29:22
Speaker 2: said the fact that I knew if I succeeded that
29:24
Speaker 2: I would have this additional impact. I'd be helping the environment.
29:28
Speaker 2: I knew if I succeed, I'd be helping people who
29:30
Speaker 2: need better healthcare. I knew I'd be helping women who
29:32
Speaker 2: need access to fertility services to freeze their eggs. So
29:35
Speaker 2: I think having that extra purpose can push you through
29:39
Speaker 2: and give you that last bit of energy you need
29:41
Speaker 2: in the toughest of times when otherwise you would think
29:43
Speaker 2: about quitting.
29:44
Speaker 3: And women are more likely to start purpose driven companies.
29:47
Speaker 2: Women are more likely to start purpose driven companies, and
29:50
Speaker 2: there are a lot of reasons for that, one of
29:52
Speaker 2: which is that women simply say they care about the
29:54
Speaker 2: environment and about social issues more than men do. Women
29:56
Speaker 2: donate to philanthropy more than men do. There are a
29:58
Speaker 2: lot of reasons for that. But I also do think
30:01
Speaker 2: that there's a little bit of anxiety around women feeling
30:05
Speaker 2: like they don't want to say I just want to
30:06
Speaker 2: be greedy, I just want to make money, whereas I
30:08
Speaker 2: think socially that's more acceptable for men say I'm just
30:11
Speaker 2: going to make a lot of money with my company.
30:12
Speaker 2: And women say that doesn't feel socially socially valued as
30:16
Speaker 2: much for women, because there is this expectation that women
30:19
Speaker 2: are going to be even more philanthropic or more nurturing
30:22
Speaker 2: than they actually are. And there's also some interesting data
30:25
Speaker 2: about because of that expectation of warmth and nurturing, that
30:28
Speaker 2: investors in general would preference male founders over female founders,
30:33
Speaker 2: even if they're pitching the same companies. But if you
30:36
Speaker 2: add a purpose driven element, then it adds this element
30:39
Speaker 2: of warmth that really neutralizes the way investors see men
30:42
Speaker 2: and women. So men are equally likely to invest in
30:45
Speaker 2: men and women if a company is a purpose driven component,
30:47
Speaker 2: So it might be easier for women to raise money
30:49
Speaker 2: if they have a purpose driven component.
30:51
Speaker 1: I hate that, and I don't use the word hate,
30:54
Speaker 1: but it's the same in politics, right like we love
30:57
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton when she was in New York, and as
31:00
Speaker 1: soon as she decided she wanted to be president, we
31:03
Speaker 1: don't like her anymore.
31:04
Speaker 2: I think there's this whole sense of people feeling uncomfortable
31:07
Speaker 2: if women are too explicit about wanting money and power.
31:10
Speaker 2: I think it makes people uncomfortable. That is so wild.
31:13
Speaker 1: Still, I find that gen Z men when I speak
31:16
Speaker 1: to them, are way more comfortable with women in power,
31:21
Speaker 1: women who want like I think that they're more comfortable
31:24
Speaker 1: with feelings.
31:24
Speaker 3: I see a shift, and I think.
31:25
Speaker 2: It's also women. I mean, I think women feel more
31:28
Speaker 2: comfortable saying I'm going to make a ton of money
31:30
Speaker 2: with my company and I'm going to save the world.
31:32
Speaker 2: I think it's easier for them to own it. And
31:35
Speaker 2: I don't think it's right, but I think it's it
31:37
Speaker 2: helps them. I think the fact that two percent of
31:40
Speaker 2: venture capital dollars go to female founders is crazy. I mean,
31:44
Speaker 2: I think the numbers are really bad, but to me,
31:46
Speaker 2: having examples out there is really important. You mentioned Hillary Clinton, right,
31:50
Speaker 2: like in politics, you need to have a lot of
31:52
Speaker 2: examples of female leaders in politics for more women to
31:55
Speaker 2: be like, oh I can run, I can run for president,
31:58
Speaker 2: I can run for office. And then I think in
32:00
Speaker 2: business you need a lot of examples of women who
32:03
Speaker 2: have succeeded and not burnt out and not given up
32:05
Speaker 2: to know that like, oh I can do this and
32:07
Speaker 2: I can succeed. You just need to have more examples.
32:10
Speaker 2: So in my book, I wanted to have a mix
32:12
Speaker 2: of stories of people you've never heard of before, like
32:15
Speaker 2: Jennifer Holmgren and women who you've heard of, but maybe
32:18
Speaker 2: you don't know the whole story. So I wanted it
32:20
Speaker 2: to be a mix of both because I think that
32:22
Speaker 2: to change people's minds of what people should feel comfortable doing,
32:26
Speaker 2: what they should aspire to, you need both men and
32:29
Speaker 2: women to understand that this is what women look this
32:32
Speaker 2: is what leaders look like. Leaders look like women. Leaders
32:35
Speaker 2: come in all shapes and sizes. They are diverse, they
32:37
Speaker 2: have different backgrounds. This is what business leadership looks like.
32:40
Speaker 2: And until you have a really broad assortment of examples
32:43
Speaker 2: out there, of the diversity of examples out there, then
32:46
Speaker 2: I think it's hard for men to be like, oh,
32:49
Speaker 2: I want to go work for her, or oh I
32:51
Speaker 2: want to invest in her if they haven't seen more examples.
32:54
Speaker 2: And women need to be like I could be heard.
32:57
Speaker 2: It's just not Elizabeth Holmes as the only example. I
32:59
Speaker 2: could be. I could be a successful female leader. And
33:02
Speaker 2: I think we need to change the narratives and the culture.
33:07
Speaker 1: What did you think about the President of New Zealand
33:09
Speaker 1: stepping down? Because I think a.
33:11
Speaker 2: Woted to step down. She did a great job for
33:13
Speaker 2: six years. Six years is a long time.
33:16
Speaker 1: But a lot of it illustrated things in your book,
33:19
Speaker 1: Like I felt confused about it because on one hand,
33:23
Speaker 1: you talk a lot about ego and humility in the.
33:25
Speaker 2: Book, and namely that women tend to have humility.
33:29
Speaker 1: Right, And I was thinking, like, men in our country
33:32
Speaker 1: never want to give up power to literally the country's
33:37
Speaker 1: like deficit.
33:40
Speaker 2: And I think, yeah, it's really it's a really interesting question.
33:43
Speaker 2: When I saw that news, I thought, it's a bummer
33:46
Speaker 2: that we don't have another amazing female leader out there
33:49
Speaker 2: too we can use as an example. But like, good
33:52
Speaker 2: for her. She did a good job. She worked really
33:54
Speaker 2: hard for six years, and she knows that if she
33:56
Speaker 2: keeps on staying in this role, she's not gonna be
33:58
Speaker 2: able to give it her all. So to me, it's like,
34:00
Speaker 2: you'd much rather have a leader that knows their limitations.
34:03
Speaker 2: And I think this is true in general, Like you
34:05
Speaker 2: don't want a leader to pretend they've got all this
34:07
Speaker 2: stuff figured out when they actually need to hire other
34:09
Speaker 2: people to help them, right. You want a leader who knows, like,
34:11
Speaker 2: I've done my part. This has been a great six years,
34:14
Speaker 2: and why do I want to have my last two
34:16
Speaker 2: years be terrible? Like I don't want to end on
34:18
Speaker 2: that note like give you know, it's about honesty in
34:21
Speaker 2: a lot of ways and authenticity. So I thought good
34:24
Speaker 2: for her, and I wish everyone would be more honest
34:27
Speaker 2: and authentic about when they knew they could give it
34:29
Speaker 2: their all. And by the way, when it's like I'm sick,
34:31
Speaker 2: I need to stay home, I'm not going to do
34:33
Speaker 2: a good job if I come to work today. And
34:36
Speaker 2: I think there's this pressure to constantly be like pushing, pushing, pushing,
34:40
Speaker 2: But you're only going to be successful in the pushing
34:42
Speaker 2: or the you know, whether it's you know, politically or
34:45
Speaker 2: in any business situation, if you're honest about what your
34:48
Speaker 2: limits are. And so I think it's been interesting with
34:51
Speaker 2: this whole conversation about work from home and hybrid work
34:54
Speaker 2: and vacation, Like there's a certain amount of rest that
34:57
Speaker 2: makes you more productive, and so being honest about that
35:02
Speaker 2: I think is really valuable if you want to be successful.
35:05
Speaker 1: Glennon Doyle always says that sleep is the secret of superheroes,
35:08
Speaker 1: and I love that line.
35:10
Speaker 3: I agree.
35:11
Speaker 1: You mentioned the two percent of venture capital funding that
35:13
Speaker 1: goes to female led companies in the book. You talk
35:16
Speaker 1: about how it's particularly difficult for women in tech, which
35:19
Speaker 1: I found interesting because I felt like it was difficult
35:22
Speaker 1: for women everywhere, so to hear that it's worse in
35:24
Speaker 1: tech is sort of alarming. Aside from starting companies that
35:29
Speaker 1: have a good for you arm, did you find that
35:33
Speaker 1: there were any advantages that women had when pitching, or
35:37
Speaker 1: any edges that you can share, because a lot of
35:40
Speaker 1: the pretty smart listeners are women who have big dreams
35:44
Speaker 1: and start companies and do cool stuff.
35:47
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that women have lots of disadvantages,
35:50
Speaker 2: but understanding what they are can set them up to
35:53
Speaker 2: be more successful. And my book very much is positive
35:56
Speaker 2: and optimistic, and I truly believe that people can create
36:00
Speaker 2: on roadmap and their path to success. But I do
36:03
Speaker 2: also think part of that is understanding the terrible stuff
36:06
Speaker 2: and understanding the double standards you're going to face. There
36:08
Speaker 2: are some interesting research about when women are pitching the
36:11
Speaker 2: disadvantages they face, one of which is that VC's investors
36:15
Speaker 2: are more likely to ask women about the downside risk.
36:18
Speaker 2: What's the worst case scenario, What's the worst thing that's
36:20
Speaker 2: going to happen if the economy craters? What are you
36:22
Speaker 2: going to do? This sounds to you know, like, give
36:24
Speaker 2: us your give us your solution. Men going into those
36:27
Speaker 2: same investors are more likely to be asked about the upside.
36:31
Speaker 2: Give us your best possible outcomes, tell us what your
36:34
Speaker 2: biggest dreams are, like how big could this company be?
36:37
Speaker 2: So women oftentimes didn't know that because they they're in
36:42
Speaker 2: the room by themselves with the investors. So when this
36:44
Speaker 2: research came out, really opened a lot of people's eyes.
36:46
Speaker 2: And there were a number of women I talked to
36:48
Speaker 2: about this research, a couple of CEOs. They told me, oh,
36:50
Speaker 2: it really changed my approach. Once I saw that data,
36:54
Speaker 2: I went into the room. I was ready to give
36:56
Speaker 2: them the answer about the downside risk. But then I
36:59
Speaker 2: knew I could immediate pivot and say, and hey, by
37:01
Speaker 2: the way, let me tell you about my best case scenario.
37:03
Speaker 2: So they knew the situation. They knew it wasn't an
37:06
Speaker 2: even playing field, but they could sort of even it
37:09
Speaker 2: out themselves, and that was really effective for them. Another
37:12
Speaker 2: example is that women are more likely to talk about
37:14
Speaker 2: their companies as they are now nuts and bolts. Here
37:17
Speaker 2: are numbers, here's what we're dealing with. Here are the
37:19
Speaker 2: struggles opportunities right now. Men are more likely to not lie,
37:23
Speaker 2: but give their expectations for the company. In her here's
37:26
Speaker 2: what we're doing, talking more in the present tense about
37:29
Speaker 2: things as they imagine them being in a year. And
37:31
Speaker 2: so it's just a different way of talking about your business.
37:34
Speaker 2: And there was one ceo, shanlon Ma, the CEO of
37:37
Speaker 2: a company called Zola that is wedding registry stuff. It's
37:40
Speaker 2: an amazing company. She was having a really hard time
37:43
Speaker 2: pitching her company. First of all, the investors, who are
37:46
Speaker 2: mostly men, said to her, like, how big is the
37:48
Speaker 2: wedding industry anyways, Like it can't be that, And of
37:51
Speaker 2: course every woman is like excuse me, And by the way,
37:54
Speaker 2: it is a fifty billion dollar industry. So she was
37:58
Speaker 2: having a hard time getting these male investors to understand
38:02
Speaker 2: the market and the problem that she was solving. But
38:04
Speaker 2: she also, and she describes herself as a sort of
38:07
Speaker 2: borderline introvert, was not being pounding the table and talking
38:11
Speaker 2: about how amazing her company could be. And after one
38:14
Speaker 2: of the pitch meetings, she pulled aside the one female
38:16
Speaker 2: investor she had seen in her dozens of meetings, and
38:19
Speaker 2: she said, tell me, can you just tell me what
38:20
Speaker 2: I'm doing wrong? Not getting any traction. This is so hard.
38:23
Speaker 2: Why is my message not resonating? And this woman said
38:27
Speaker 2: to her, look, I know you're being honest about your business,
38:30
Speaker 2: but you just need to understand that the men are
38:32
Speaker 2: coming in here. They are pounding the table. They're talking
38:34
Speaker 2: about how they're going to go to the moon and
38:36
Speaker 2: they're going to change the world and things are going
38:38
Speaker 2: to be amazing. And I understand that you're being honest,
38:42
Speaker 2: and I understand we all understand that they're inflating a
38:44
Speaker 2: little bit. They're blustering, and we're not saying that you
38:47
Speaker 2: should bluster, but you should just know that this is
38:49
Speaker 2: what people are doing. So go out there, give them
38:52
Speaker 2: your best case scenario, be honest, but don't hold back.
38:55
Speaker 2: And it was a game changer for her to get
38:57
Speaker 2: that message of like, oh, like it is kind of
39:00
Speaker 2: different world. It's not an even playing field. And I
39:03
Speaker 2: think that was really helpful for her. And that's why
39:04
Speaker 2: I think that women do face a lot of disadvantages
39:07
Speaker 2: when they go into pitch, but they also have the
39:10
Speaker 2: opportunity to flip things to their advantage once they know
39:13
Speaker 2: the situation.
39:15
Speaker 1: I have a pitch coming up, and I needed to
39:16
Speaker 1: hear that because I need to go pound the table
39:18
Speaker 1: in my own way.
39:19
Speaker 2: So that's great in your own way. You're never gonna
39:22
Speaker 2: do it in the same way a guy would, but
39:23
Speaker 2: do it in anyway.
39:25
Speaker 1: So you talk about gratitude in helping leaders with long
39:28
Speaker 1: term decision making, and I was shocked to hear this.
39:31
Speaker 1: I think gratitude is so buzzy. Can you break it
39:35
Speaker 1: down for us?
39:36
Speaker 2: Yes, it's so funny because you know, I have kids,
39:38
Speaker 2: I have a husband, I have an amazing family, and
39:40
Speaker 2: I always think but celebrating gratitude when I'm with my
39:43
Speaker 2: family and like being grateful and we're all together in it.
39:46
Speaker 2: Never and twenty years in the business news space, I
39:49
Speaker 2: never once thought about gratitude as being a business skill.
39:52
Speaker 2: Not at all. Did not occur to me. But I
39:54
Speaker 2: was interviewing all these amazing women, and one after another,
39:57
Speaker 2: there was this one week, and it was during the pandemic,
40:00
Speaker 2: doing all these interviews on Zoom. One after another kept
40:03
Speaker 2: on talking about things I'm grateful for. Whitney Wolf heard
40:06
Speaker 2: that she was so grateful she had this traumatic experience
40:08
Speaker 2: at Tinder because it enabled her to start Bumble, which
40:11
Speaker 2: was positive and aiming to help women. I was like,
40:13
Speaker 2: you're grateful for that. Women after women was saying like,
40:16
Speaker 2: I'm grateful that my family is unbanked, because then I
40:19
Speaker 2: had proximity to this problem and I, as a startup founder,
40:23
Speaker 2: had access to the tools to solve it. So Sheena
40:25
Speaker 2: Allen the sea of a company called Capway. So women
40:28
Speaker 2: who were grateful for their experience, even bad ones, for
40:31
Speaker 2: their opportunity to solve problems, and for having gotten as
40:35
Speaker 2: far as they had, grateful for mentorship, for relationships, for
40:37
Speaker 2: their network. And it was so like clear to me
40:41
Speaker 2: with all of these comments all in a row that
40:43
Speaker 2: I was like, there's something here. So then I dug
40:45
Speaker 2: into the research to understand it, and I found a
40:48
Speaker 2: couple of interesting things. The first is that women are
40:51
Speaker 2: more likely to practice gratitude and to enjoy the feeling
40:54
Speaker 2: of gratitude than men are. This is socialized, this is
40:57
Speaker 2: not biological, and the research think that's because sometimes if
41:01
Speaker 2: men feel too grateful, they feel like, oh, maybe I
41:04
Speaker 2: owe someone something, and I don't want to owe anyone anything,
41:06
Speaker 2: whereas women are socialized to enjoy and celebrate the feeling
41:09
Speaker 2: of gratitude. So that's interesting. And then also there's all
41:13
Speaker 2: this research showing that practicing gratitude, which means just thinking
41:16
Speaker 2: about something you're grateful about, enables you to have patience,
41:20
Speaker 2: and in business that translates to longer term decision making
41:23
Speaker 2: and planning. So I mean, if you think about it
41:26
Speaker 2: makes sense. If you feel grateful for where you are,
41:28
Speaker 2: you feel sort of stable in your situation. You don't
41:30
Speaker 2: feel anxious to have a near term win. You're not
41:32
Speaker 2: going to do anything rash to have a near term win.
41:34
Speaker 2: You're like, we're okay, feel grateful for where we are.
41:37
Speaker 2: I can take a beat and think about what we
41:38
Speaker 2: should be doing for the long term. So it drives
41:41
Speaker 2: us sort of this abundance thinking like we're okay, I
41:44
Speaker 2: can make smart decisions with the most information I need.
41:47
Speaker 2: I'm not going to rush to a solution as opposed
41:50
Speaker 2: to a scarcity mentality of like I need to rush
41:52
Speaker 2: and win as much as I can right in this instant.
41:54
Speaker 2: And it's so interesting, and like there's this crazy study
41:57
Speaker 2: about people opting to make more money later if they
42:00
Speaker 2: practice gratitude rather than taking a smaller check up front,
42:03
Speaker 2: and it really it really makes sense to me. The
42:06
Speaker 2: more people I interview, where you see that having that
42:08
Speaker 2: gratitude not being in a panic for when can just
42:11
Speaker 2: make you smarter about making longer term decisions and investing
42:14
Speaker 2: for the long term.
42:16
Speaker 3: That's really cool.
42:17
Speaker 1: I was in Japan right before the pandemic, and I
42:21
Speaker 1: learned how they think about companies when they start companies
42:25
Speaker 1: in one hundred year span, and we think about companies
42:28
Speaker 1: like two to five and then maybe ten year spans.
42:31
Speaker 1: And the idea of building something that lasts I think
42:35
Speaker 1: requires gratitude.
42:36
Speaker 3: So it makes total sense to me. It's very cool.
42:39
Speaker 2: Of all the things of the book, that's the one
42:40
Speaker 2: I try to remind myself about every day, like practice gratitude.
42:44
Speaker 2: You have so much to be grateful for and use
42:45
Speaker 2: that gratitude to make smart, longer term decisions.
42:49
Speaker 1: So did you interview one hundred and twenty people for
42:52
Speaker 1: the book? Yes, so one hundred and twenty people, mostly women.
42:57
Speaker 2: Yes.
42:59
Speaker 1: Did you find any sort of through line? I know
43:02
Speaker 1: it's hard with one hundred and twenty people.
43:04
Speaker 2: Well, I would say they all had a growth mindset,
43:08
Speaker 2: which I understand a growth mindset as being the balance
43:10
Speaker 2: of humility to understand you don't know everything, and confidence
43:15
Speaker 2: to know that you can learn and you can learn it.
43:17
Speaker 2: So to me, that a balance of humility and confidence,
43:20
Speaker 2: so they all had a growth mindset. And the other
43:22
Speaker 2: thing that was really key is that so many of
43:26
Speaker 2: these people did not fit the stereotype of all of
43:30
Speaker 2: them didn't fit the stereotype of what a leader looked
43:32
Speaker 2: like because there weren't They weren't men, they weren't white men,
43:34
Speaker 2: and the stereotype of a leader is a white man.
43:36
Speaker 2: So in not fitting that stereotype, they felt liberated to
43:40
Speaker 2: do things in their own way, both to lead in
43:43
Speaker 2: their own way and also to create companies that solved
43:47
Speaker 2: products or you know, created products or services that were different.
43:51
Speaker 2: And I think that liberation from the dominant stereotype and
43:56
Speaker 2: authentic leadership was something that was really consistent the women
43:59
Speaker 2: who's who I write about who were successful. They were
44:02
Speaker 2: successful because they were leading and doing things that were
44:05
Speaker 2: really authentic to them and who they were, and they
44:07
Speaker 2: weren't trying to be someone else. They weren't trying to
44:10
Speaker 2: copy someone else's business idea or strategy or management approach.
44:14
Speaker 2: They were just like, who am I and how can
44:15
Speaker 2: I make this work for me?
44:17
Speaker 1: Okay, a few rapid fires before you leave me. So
44:20
Speaker 1: you've interviewed a lot of powerful and strategic people. What
44:24
Speaker 1: have you learned about asking people questions that they don't
44:26
Speaker 1: want to answer.
44:28
Speaker 2: Ask it with a smile, and I think they need
44:34
Speaker 2: to understand. And I increasingly try to help people to
44:37
Speaker 2: understand that if they answer the hard questions, it's going
44:40
Speaker 2: to benefit them because everyone's thinking about thinking about the
44:43
Speaker 2: same questions. Anyways. It's seldom that I ask a really
44:46
Speaker 2: hard question that isn't something that everybody is wondering.
44:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no like gotcha.
44:51
Speaker 2: It's like truly the underlying like everyone knows the gotchas
44:54
Speaker 2: are coming right.
44:56
Speaker 3: Yeah.
44:57
Speaker 2: The mistake would be not asking the hard question, because
44:59
Speaker 2: it would it would be weird not to ask it.
45:01
Speaker 2: It's always the elephant in the room. That's such a
45:03
Speaker 2: good reframe. But I think sometimes even asking it with compassion,
45:07
Speaker 2: you know, like, this is a hard question, and I'm
45:09
Speaker 2: going to ask it to you, but I'm here to
45:11
Speaker 2: listen to your answer and I'm giving you an opportunity
45:13
Speaker 2: to answer it.
45:14
Speaker 1: That's really great, Thank you for that. What did you
45:17
Speaker 1: want to be when you were growing up?
45:18
Speaker 2: When I was really little, I wanted to be a dance,
45:20
Speaker 2: a ballet dancer. When I was the age of my
45:23
Speaker 2: I've an eight year old, and when I was his age,
45:25
Speaker 2: I wanted to be a ballet dancer, and then I
45:27
Speaker 2: wanted to be some sort of like international rights attorney
45:31
Speaker 2: saving the world, and it never happened. Well, you're want
45:35
Speaker 2: it like international policy to help help people.
45:39
Speaker 3: It's cool. You're doing it in your own way, in
45:41
Speaker 3: a different way, different kind of thing. Okay. A piece
45:44
Speaker 3: of financial advice you think more women should know.
45:47
Speaker 2: Don't be afraid of understanding finance. It's not rocket science.
45:52
Speaker 2: Take control of your finances, educate yourself. Don't be afraid.
45:56
Speaker 2: So many women I know just hand all the numbers,
45:59
Speaker 2: all the money over their partners and don't engage with
46:02
Speaker 2: it if they have husbands or partners. And there's a
46:04
Speaker 2: lot of research on this. Women need to be empowered
46:07
Speaker 2: not just to save, but also to invest and to
46:10
Speaker 2: understand that they can understand it. It's really not that complicated,
46:14
Speaker 2: and more than anything, they should be figuring out the
46:16
Speaker 2: stuff that they're wary of approaching.
46:19
Speaker 3: A piece of financial advice that women should ignore.
46:22
Speaker 2: That the stock market is too risky for women to
46:24
Speaker 2: invest in.
46:26
Speaker 3: A negotiating tip you've picked up along the years.
46:30
Speaker 2: Ah, this is a tough one. And I don't know
46:33
Speaker 2: if I've ever deployed this, but try to find out
46:35
Speaker 2: what your peers are making.
46:37
Speaker 3: That's what's really good money.
46:38
Speaker 2: But at other companies and now there are actually a
46:41
Speaker 2: lot of tech tools like Glassdoor and other companies like
46:43
Speaker 2: Comparably that can help you do that research. So go
46:48
Speaker 2: in armed with information about what's appropa. Oh, by the way,
46:51
Speaker 2: there's this new law pay transparency law that's mandating that
46:55
Speaker 2: that companies based in most in New York and California
46:58
Speaker 2: and other states have to those pay ranges for different roles.
47:03
Speaker 2: And I just think that that's a great thing and
47:06
Speaker 2: take advantage of it. You're not going to get all
47:07
Speaker 2: the information you want, but whenever you're negotiating for pay,
47:10
Speaker 2: do a little homework first to find out if you're getting,
47:14
Speaker 2: you know, low balled for whatever.
47:15
Speaker 1: The word is a book you read that changed your life,
47:18
Speaker 1: something you think everyone should read.
47:20
Speaker 2: Well, there's so many of them. There's an amazing book
47:22
Speaker 2: called fair Play that a friend of mine, Eve Rotsky, wrote,
47:25
Speaker 2: which is great if you have a partner and you're
47:26
Speaker 2: trying to divide up household household shorts and invisible labor
47:31
Speaker 2: and it's really about this idea of like not taking
47:34
Speaker 2: on too much invisible labor and honestly lean in by
47:37
Speaker 2: Cheryl Sandberg really influenced me because it just reminded me
47:41
Speaker 2: that I needed to ask for receipt at the table.
47:43
Speaker 2: And I know it was written. It's been criticized for
47:46
Speaker 2: being mostly for affluent white women and who have a
47:48
Speaker 2: lot of privilege, and I certainly have a lot of privilege,
47:51
Speaker 2: but I think it reminded me not to hold back
47:53
Speaker 2: in a way that i'd been holding back.
47:56
Speaker 1: Her book really influenced me as well. Okay, I have
47:59
Speaker 1: a pretty smart question. So because we're virtual, just tell
48:02
Speaker 1: me when, when what is the most unique or important
48:06
Speaker 1: skill you've learned from your job?
48:09
Speaker 2: How to? It's what you asked, how to ask really
48:12
Speaker 2: tough questions in a way that's not painful for both
48:15
Speaker 2: the viewer and for the person answering them.
48:18
Speaker 3: And this is a tough one.
48:19
Speaker 1: So whatever comes to your mind the smartest decision you've
48:22
Speaker 1: ever made.
48:23
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a tough one, I know. I mean there's
48:26
Speaker 2: like the personal ones getting married and having kids, and
48:29
Speaker 2: I think honestly it's probably going on TV and trying
48:34
Speaker 2: it even though it was tough professionally, and it was
48:36
Speaker 2: like just doing the thing, even though I didn't know
48:38
Speaker 2: what I was doing, and the doors at that opened
48:41
Speaker 2: by pushing myself outside my comfort zone.
48:44
Speaker 1: Well, people didn't. I didn't get to this part. But
48:47
Speaker 1: you said you don't get nervous, and that's your superpower.
48:49
Speaker 1: So that's a pretty good superpower.
48:52
Speaker 2: I'll take it. I'll take I mean, I get nervous sometimes,
48:54
Speaker 2: but I didn't get nervous on TV that first time.
48:56
Speaker 3: It's so good. Thank you. I know you have to run.
48:59
Speaker 3: I really appreciate your time.
49:01
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to
49:03
Speaker 2: talk to you and answer your very smart question.
49:06
Speaker 1: Thank you. I want to thank the people that make
49:13
Speaker 1: this show possible, Colleen O'Neill, Jill Salama, Karrie O'Keefe, and
49:18
Speaker 1: Phil Speed Tech.
49:19
Speaker 3: Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
49:23
Speaker 3: To have a good day. I'll see you next week.