Latest / WTF! Women Talk Finance / EP 13: AI Isn’t Just for Productivity Bros, with Katie Powell Hinitz

Transcript

EP 13: AI Isn’t Just for Productivity Bros, with Katie Powell Hinitz · WTF! Women Talk Finance

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Jackie.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Kid.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this is WTF.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: Grab your coffee, wine, water bottle, emotional support snack, no judgment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: And let's get into it.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, and thank you for joining us again.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is WTF.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: We are back with Dr.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Katie Hinnitz, Paula Hinnitz.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I'd screw it up.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, her name's Katie.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Katie's just pregnant.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: You'll see in the show notes the full spelling of her full name with all the letters if you'd like it.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's a cell phone.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: We are so lucky though, because she is so talented, so intelligent, so bright, and so just fun to talk to.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we have a super sexy show today.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um AI, hustle culture, but also AI for women.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna dive in.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of different angles to take on this, but kind of a sexy tagline.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: AI uh isn't just for productivity bros.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: And no hate on that, no shame, no guilt.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: But really, um, we were talking before the show, and AI has a very masculine energy and just inherent in it.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's about productivity, it's outward looking, it's action, it's do, do, do, do.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: And this narrative that, like, now we can produce a week worth of stuff in 15 minutes.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we should.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the three of us think that it's worthy of a bigger discussion and maybe a little bit of reframing and a few new lenses on really um the the power of AI and and not just AI, but productivity, hustle culture, and kind of like the feminine aspects to this.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So with that, let's dive in.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what comes to mind for me first, Jackie, is you made such a good point of should so we should.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we all need to be asking a lot more of should I?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: I can, but should I questions, right?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: And something that I just had the privilege of learning at this um, this is like one of the continuing ed programs on AI in organizational development.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: They'd underscored something that there's so much research on, which is automating things that you're doing now that aren't working is just gonna expand your problems, right?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, so maybe take a step back and say, okay, what what are the goals here?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: What do I want?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that slowness is almost the antidote to that hyper masculine go, go, go.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Productivity is power, energy.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, I don't want to just be productive.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: I want to have impact.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so, what are the goals that we're trying to achieve?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: How do we get there?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Slowing down there, then leveraging AI to do that automation is going to get you so much further.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's funny because when I heard, and I've heard it so many times now, and I think a lot of us have, we're getting inundated with you could build this business with AI and you could do this and this and this, and what took a week takes 15 minutes.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: And then the idea isn't so now you got a week back.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: The idea is imagine the volume you can now build in a week when what used to take a week is 15 minutes, just keep you just keep building, you keep building.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: And my initial reaction was, oh my god, I get time back in my brain, I get free thinking time back.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: I the like there's potential here for less mental load, more freedom.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: I can function in a different way, um because I can build this to be a support system for me.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: But then there's this pressure of I'm not thinking big enough with AI.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not using it to its full potential when I'm only when I'm thinking that small.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: And um so it's it's it's such an interesting paradigm.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I'm just getting mansplained too in a whole new way about how I should be using this tool.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it is incredible, and we are big proponents of it.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: We use it so much in our organization.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: There's so many ways we've been able to optimize this.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm curious, Katie, because you've been really leading the charge in a lot of the ways we are integrating this.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd love to get your perspective in how you are seeing opportunities for AI implementation.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think I love the framing of that question.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the thing that I want to say first is we don't need more people telling others, but particularly women, that we're not doing enough.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so I would just say if you are in person who is helping others leverage AI, thank you for doing that.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: And please round out the messaging because it's overwhelming and it's not my job to keep on pace with every new innovation because I am not an AI expert.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so the noise, it just feels so overwhelming sometimes.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then it does feel like, wow, I'm not I'm not enough, I'm gonna be left behind, blah, blah, blah.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: Or replaced.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: Or replaced the other narrative is that if we aren't staying on top of it enough, the jobs that are mostly female dominated will be replaced.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: And those are scary questions that I actually think people don't have enough grace and understanding of the power of those questions, so they're flippantly saying them.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just for anybody listening, would invite folks to have a more measured tone around these topics and understand that people have full-time jobs.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is not their full-time job, and so we need to then be able to center in and say, how can I cut through the noise to find the people who are doing the the things that I need to teach me that in short order.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so my antidote to this is is it's just a new flavor of very tried and true organizational design principles, which is start with the goal.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's it and you don't have to figure out the how.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Start with start with where you want to go.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I want to achieve X.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, there's a couple of paths here.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm pretty unclear of it, it's really nebulous, I can actually use AI to help me get there, like a sparring partner.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's been really helpful for me in certain areas.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I've been able to ask AI to help me understand both how to get there, what you know, collect research for me, um, be be my thought partner in it, but also teach me what it can do in that process.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not something I've heard people say, but it's just like, well, can you do that?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: Or can how would how would I be able to best leverage you to do the things that are highly automatable while building out this goal?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: But again, it just it starts from the going slow of what is my goal here?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Can you said my goal is to have more time back?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Great, let's figure out the start from that place and then work backward from there.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: I would say don't start at the tool place because that's such a crowded, noisy space right now.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say that that will leave you more overwhelmed than helped.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: I like that you said that because it's really shifting this from replacement or not doing enough to AI being an equalizer for women, increasing their value inside an organization.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a very different way of looking at it.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're still um, there is this FOMO, and we're still very much looking through the masculine energy lens of output, deliverables, speed.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: I love Katie, the word slow.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like even when you said it, like my whole system's like almost like permission to like rest, like rest around this topic, even just slow.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And the the messaging, the narrative, I love that you suggest we round it out because so much of the narrative is automate everything, 10x your output, you're gonna miss out, you're gonna get left behind.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: The window, the Jarvis window is closing, it's gotta be now, once in a lifetime opportunities.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have heard people say that AI is going to change humanity more than writing, writing, the printing press, and the internet combined.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: That is a terrifying statement, even if it's true.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: We've got some time to get there.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of fear and panic and urgency woven into the conversation, which makes it even more daunting and more overwhelming.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, what if we slow down and really ask ourselves, what are women, what are people actually missing if they sit this one out?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or if they choose to just use it a little, get a little bit familiar, embrace it a little.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in hearing that, Jackie, it's just it's so powerful.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I'm I'm glad you all create the space for it to be talked to because we know at the neurological level, you do not make good decisions when you're scared.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: You do not make good decisions in a threat-minded place, and when the entire narrative around something that is very empowering is a catalyst for you to start things, grow, be a creator.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like it is very exciting.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: But if the underlying narrative is fear-based, you're not getting your best when you show up there.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say, you know, part of the conversation needs to be how do you regulate yourself and settle into that place of progress over perfection?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna open it up today.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna ask it to tell me something.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna ask it to say, hey, I'm struggling with this problem.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: Help me understand how I could leverage AI to get to that goal, right?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Ask it some questions, create partnership with it.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: The tools will come once you have clarity on the plan.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: But get clear first on, okay, you know, threat-minded stuff sells.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what's in the ether right now.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I and I have confidence that those people believe it.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a belief that those folks have good intent in trying to get people to not be left behind in this.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: But um understanding that we have to come from a place of okay, I don't have control over the bigger stuff.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: I have control over how I show up here.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: I need to be a bit more measured and just ask some simple questions and just get started.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that's all you can do.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember Mad Libs?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Go to AI and it's like, I'm struggling with this.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, type it in.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm struggling with this.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: My objective or what I want, I want to understand, or I want help understand, or I want help building, whatever.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Mad libs it.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: I want help why-ing the the this, and you're off and running.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: I love that, Jackie.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: You should trademark that mad libs AI.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's so I've never heard somebody just distill it in that way, and it's so much more approachable, right?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's like the big starting point of like meta-prompting, essentially, right?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like get asking it the question to help you then get the right prompt to then get further.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I do love the way you phrased that because I think that was such a good starting point for somebody who's maybe just getting into it.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: Katie, I'm curious from your perspective, as truly a professional, a doctor in organizational design.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um you we're seeing major shifts in in workforce because of AI.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I'm still not certain that I I I believe we will get more output.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know that we will get better output.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: What are your thoughts as a professional in this space, as an expert in this space?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that it's hard for me to disentangle some of my emotion, my personal emotion and value systems within this, because I do, I do see, have friends who have been really impacted by this, like a cataclysmic shift in workforce and value of positions.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's hard.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's hard to see when you have somebody you know and love who is a wonderful worker have a replacement, right?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: My experience being very close to those replacements is that there's a natural over-indexing of this and an underestimation of the human quality because of it, because the ultimate goal in business is you're you're selling humans, right?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's, in my opinion, an organizational symptom that had a um a band-aid rip.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And what I mean by that is there were positions that were inherently undervalued, and things that it just felt, oh my God, as soon as we automate these, goodbye.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're gonna see the consequences of the tech overindexing of that.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't to say that the AI isn't wonderful and powerful, and I actually hope that the moment that we're in right now helps people get to a place of jobs that they actually love.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: We are going to have so many people who, you know, there's we're just in a world where people do jobs that they do not love, that do not bring them joy, that they're not creating in and using their spirit in.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think we are going to see a world where that's gonna be different.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: But it doesn't mean that there's hardship and pain along the way.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I worry that we are over-indexing on the output, the hustle, the I'm not getting time back to be creative.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm getting so many more outputs, and we don't really care about the quality of those outputs.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and that that worries me.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's less emphasis on my initial impression was AI gives me freedom, and more it's just raising expectations.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: But but it to such an extreme, almost unachievable.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Extreme, and I also think misplaced.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Jackie, describe more to me about the misplaced um It goes to what you're saying about over-indexing, and I also I talk in terms of I love thinking of like the pendulum swing.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you have a swing and then there's an over, like it swings too far, so there's a correction, and then sometimes there's an overcorrection.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And this pendulum is always swinging.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're saying we're over-indexing, what I hear you saying is like we're overbetting or we're overcampioning it.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: It is a great tool, it is a great support system.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: We can talk all day about different ways to use it and how to bring more feminine energy into it, but it's not there yet to the point of like there, there's this huge narrative.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Candace, I'll go with you on like the the tech bros talk, like, oh, it's gonna 10 extra business, it's gonna get this, this, this output, this deliverable.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm an attorney.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: I have used it or attempted to use it on things like case law, to be very specific.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: It gets it wrong, often.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Often, often, often as early as this morning.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: You've heard about like hallucinations and exaggerations and things that are a little bit incorrect or a lot incorrect.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've had it um cite to statues, but it will, on its own accord, change words a little bit.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, why'd you do that?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Why'd you leave out the word not?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um just not there yet.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Not to say it couldn't get there, but we're not there yet.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's an overestimation of what it's capable of and an underestimation yet of how important humans are, relationships, connection, talking, a human face.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm getting long-winded, I'm sorry, but when you were saying we over-indexed on the tech things, we got rid of people, I think we're gonna feel a pendulum swing where there's a bit of regrets, maybe a strong word, but a little bit of like, oopsie, we went too far, and we really we need we need those people.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: We need humans.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's AI.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: We need the humans, yeah.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the people who have the space to be creative, they're not just employees of AI now, because sometimes that's how it feels.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's like AI is doing the show and you are the employee doing 50x.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's just not the case.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: And what I think the over-indexed symptom we will see, and I think we are already seeing it, is every company looks the same.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: The marketing looks the same.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: You can easily tell when it's AI generated.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Emails look the same, websites look the same, the copy looks the same, the social looks like.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna get upset about it.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's gonna be a swing.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm curious if part of this using AI to increase your value in an organization or increase in value just in life, even, is that you're and we've done this in our organization.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: We're using AI to do the things that it can do really well, which is freeing up space for us to human better.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: And is that going to be something that you can do to add more value?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'll use examples.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, in this world of AI, and I've said it I think a couple times on this uh podcast, in this world of AI and text and digital, I have doubled down on handwriting notes.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm really getting big on handwriting notes.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I will tell you the the feedback I've gotten on these silly, and sometimes it is quirky and silly notes that I'm just sending to people, a little postcard, fun stuff, right?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: The the joy that it gives now that human connection versus what it would have probably five years ago, it has exponentially grown as well.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because the value of a human experience has also 10x because people are not doing that anymore.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: So if it is adding value in your life in that space, maybe now that you've had some freedom, instead of doubling down to do it, maybe you're doubling down on being a human first and putting the phone down when you're having a conversation, or just really taking that freedom of space to person.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think it like speaks to a level of intentionality.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: You have to, you have to be okay getting off the hedonic treadmill of like, so so AI, I remember when it came out publicly, right?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: We knew it was in the ether, um, came out publicly, and then the imperative for the company was everybody use it, everybody get on this, blah, blah, blah.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it's an echo chamber.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: And what I fear is for the folks who maybe don't have the agency over their own work, they're not a founder or self-employed.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: For the folks who are at the helm of someone else's decisions, that echo chamber, unless they have the humility to listen to others around them as well, they have a very well-rounded leadership and mentorship kind of program around them, they will stay very single-focused on the tech only place.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: And there's that saying, right of like you the universe, however you want to call it, will give you first a nudge, a whisper, a slap, like of consequence here.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so even if you know, somebody in your if you are feeling like, okay, I'm gonna make those human touches to our customers or to my my partners, I'm gonna make those human touches, but they're not prioritized from the top, those consequences will come for the company.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: But it's my hope that people can feel empowered for what you're saying to take those times to just now leverage their time better for those human connections, and that that is something that's reinforced and encouraged at the organizational level.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I ri I worry that it's not at this time.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: But the pendulum's still swinging, Kate.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm reminded of this gentleman we had on our lunch and learn named Alaric Heck, who's fantastic.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: He teaches, he teaches.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: AI, he teaches YouTube advertising.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the feedback he gave, we asked about AI, going to like everything looks the same, right?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And he said they did a lot of metrics and data on what audiences want right now.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, um, just an AI generated thing scores lowest, ranks lowest.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, next is just a human, a human alone, scores better than AI alone, but still not best.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Best is a little bit of AI to get the hook, and then a human component.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So if you like extrapolate this over all of our stuff, and in that case, he's talking about content.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think about other forms of content like art and music and books.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: You can read an AI book, but you kind of know it's AI and it doesn't feel the same.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: You can read a really good novel and you're like, I am tapping into something very deep and true about the human experience a hundred times over one, am I gonna pick the novel?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Same with music.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know, there was a rapper that used a lot of auto-tune and got kind of remember the like the hype on the auto-tune.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: People kind of discredited him as an artist because of use of the auto-tune.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: So if you've got a composer who writes this just like magnificent symphony, or you know, like an artist that plays or sings from the heart.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's Adele, when she comes out live and we're like, holy shit, she sounds better somehow than she does on her album.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's got soul and hiddenness in it.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: Adele, where are you at, babe?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: We need a new album soon.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like we are drowning here.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: What the hell?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's the title of this episode is just Adele, where are you?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Where are you at?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: We need you.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: We will count ourselves successful.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the the when I said the pendulum's still swinging and companies maybe aren't, they're not there yet.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think they will.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen Women Talk Finance.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen when a company prioritizes finance or financials or financial performance over all else, there tend to be consequences.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what AI right now, the deliverable speed, produce, produce.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's really the conversation is it needs to be impacting top line and bottom line.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's financial.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can have a board, investors, advisors, and still have nobody you can actually talk to about what is really going on.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: That is not unusual.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: That is the founder reality.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we step in right there.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tom Powell.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And at the founder's office, we're proud to sponsor Women Talk Finance.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: What a good through line for that, Jackie.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's true.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's the more the topic at hand.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's great.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: The um the consequences will come.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's my hope that it comes at the whisper stage or it comes at the nudge stage.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't come at the life knocked you on your butt stage because you weren't, you were so tunnel visioned into the new, and and AI is so new, it's evolving so fast.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And to so to step away from it, get the bigger picture, and disentangle from just the finances, right?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Just the bot top and bottom line piece of this, uh, companies will be able to leverage this to do have much more impact in a way that you can't if you're just in the tunnel vision.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: Katie, how can we remove?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if everybody else is feeling this way.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't think I'm solo in this journey of feeling like I'm behind or I'm not using it enough.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Enough, like I'm not maximizing it.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: I literally have seen videos online that are like, if you're still using Chat GPT as Google, and I'm like, so what if I am?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I just need a quick answer.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yes, I yes, we are building agents.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we are going, we have more advanced tools.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: But then there's also times that I'm not, I'm not a super, I'm not a super user.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm also not filling every gap in.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: I uh used AI to manage part of my part of my day, just consolidate things and give me some nuggets, and then then I can decipher what I'm missing and not missing.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because and I in that space, in that freedom of time, I was able to be at my kids' field day at school.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: No, I was not building a supercomputer.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: I was taking some free time with my phone in my pocket.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um we're all getting inundated, I think, with this messaging and almost feeling like FOMO or guilt or like, oh, I'm not doing enough.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not using this tool enough, or to the it's its nth capacity.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: What do you say to those of us, mostly me, needing kind of like an intervention on this?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: I would say that it's a scam.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna say don't need an intervention.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Don't answer the scam likely call.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's again, I go back to okay, what is the job at hand?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: The job of these people is that they are tunnel visioned into AI.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: They are AI experts.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's some it's some something akin to when people come to you for your expertise and you're like, oh my God, if you had just done this, right?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's like there's a level of excitement and urgency that I think is worth appreciating in those folks to say they're so lit up by this, they see the capacity, but they are not the full-time workers outside of the AI industry.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so they can't appreciate that this is an additive to an already very full workload.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would say that the you're falling behind piece, just let it go because you're not.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and I would say I have gotten, I have avoided, and then I've gotten into AI and had great success in a short amount of time building an agent, having AI help me, having it direct me to the tools that I needed to.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can tee up, but I would say don't learn it for the sake of learning it.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Learn it for a specific use case.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Think of a problem that you want to solve.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Think of how, so, like in your case, field day, that's a key performance indicator, right?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Time with family, time for your daughter in working hours.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: What a great KPI to say.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I will measure myself successful as an AI user if I have more flexibility in my schedule to be with my family.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so work back from that goal.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the falling behind piece is not an empowering place to start learning something.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I would just kind of throw that statement away.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: I also found myself kind of in good company because I'm like, if you're starting off a video with, are you still using AI like Google?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, well, then a lot of us are doing this because if that's your hook.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: We're all still doing that.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, we're using it wait for far more advanced things, but yeah, sometimes you got something weird going on and you snap a pick and go, AI.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: Why is my plant dead?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like I love that.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love that use of AI.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: I love that use of AI.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um KPI on that is it gets you a banging garden, which you now have in your solarium.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: I've exclud I have grown potatoes from what my husband was gonna throw away because I'm using AI like Google.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, bro, I have 10x'd my potato production over here.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm pretty proud of it.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to know how many potatoes he's grown with AI, you know.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say progress over perfection, right?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like what you're saying is like just use it and play with it and feel like it's a tool.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: Be excited to use something new and learn about it.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: Don't start from a place of like, oh my god, I have to, and it's scary, and it's scary to use, but it's also scary not to use because that's just not helpful.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: What's your advice to companies, Katie?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I know you said you don't you want it to be a whisper or a nudge, not uh hit you in the ass.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's how do we get companies to embrace a little bit of a different narrative, a little bit of a different thought when when they're setting policies and expectations and hiring, firing, you know, planning.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that my my assessment in the ones that I've been closest to where this has happened is that it's not coming from an empowering place, it's coming from a threat place.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we know that outside of AI, anytime mandates are done that way, it is corrosive to companies.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's corrosive to their bottom line, it's corrosive to productivity, it's corrosive to customer relationships, it's corrosive to product ideation.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you you just have too much on the line to be leading that way.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so my ask or invitation to company leaders who are really excited about this and wanting to leverage AI, it'd be to say, if you go in with a blanket mandate that says I count you successful with how much you're using AI, that is not furthering the business, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's furthering an A, that's furthering Claude's business.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: So what I would say is start with the basic foundational organizational principles, tried and true, which says, where are we going?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: Why are we going there?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: How are we gonna be together as we go there?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that how we're gonna be comes third, and that's where the tactics come in.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: But if you are starting with everybody go go use AI, you're just gonna get more problems that already existed.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: You're just amplifying those, right?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: So kind of clean your house, get clear, and then enable folks to use it as a tool to empower the things that you want to grow in the company.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Usage of AI should not be that, because that is in isolation in service to a different business.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's not in service to the business that you run or those that you serve.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: I've got kind of a an odd question, but I think this every time I see a big announcement that jobs have been cut because of AI.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I have like this kind of, and is maybe conspiracy theorist type view or opinion of it, but you know, we saw Meta cut 8,000 corporate workers because they see them being able to be replaced essentially by AI.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: We saw like, um, I think it was blockchain, somebody, I I don't remember, I think Cisco, they were big, big Coinbase, all of these big organizations that are cutting jobs.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: In some way, I'm almost like, is that also competitive?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: Are they competing to be like, well, look at how advanced our AI is that we're able to cut this many more people?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: It felt it's like I felt like, are we removing that human element so much that they're like, who can win in the race of how lean can we get?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: How many can we do without?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's exactly right.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: The KPI is a KPI that I think comes with grave and unforeseen consequences.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: And we haven't seen it yet.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: We haven't seen a massively scaled, very lean company yet.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think it's kind of a race to the bottom.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I would say on the other side of that coin, we know that employment was a bit overinflated in COVID.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: So hiring came at like this big rate.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that there was a a band-aid rip moment of, well, we we overhired, we're having a lot of pressure.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's the same thing of hiring AI, basically, instead of hiring a bunch of people, which was the rat race that we saw in COVID when everything became digitized.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think back to Jackie, your wonderful pendulum swinging.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: I I think Ken, this is just the it's the pendulum, and and we will see the consequences of a hyper lean team, but I also think it's it's a product of decisions that were made years ago that now there are somewhat of solutions to those problems.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think part and parcel with that is adjusting expectations as a society, as a global society, as a human populace.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I go back to this conversation where we heard, Candace, this individual who coaches on this has very much embraced it, AI that is, and encourages others at an almost like panic level.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like you gotta be on board now or you're missing out.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: And in those conversations, two things were said.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: One, you can replace your marketing department of 10 people with AI, so you can lean out.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's you can.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: And implicit in that is you should.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: What bottom top line, bottom line, why would you not?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can replace all these people.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Second, the old expectation was if you have you ask an employee, okay, I need this, when will it be done?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: The answer used to be, I need until the end of the week.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: The response back was that is not acceptable.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's no longer acceptable.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is what that person was saying to that.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: With AI, it can be done in eight minutes.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: So not on the pod, I should say.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: So this is um it's interesting because I understand that line of thinking.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: I understand why we might be encouraging founders and leaders and companies to manage and think that way.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: However, I think it's also a little bit like siloed thinking, like blinders on, because the underlying assumptions in that statement is that that person that just told you they needed till the end of the week, that they've got nothing else going on, nothing on their to-do list.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, this is already it's AI on top of an already full workload.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not that they've got one deliverable, one to-do, and it used to take a week and now it takes half an hour.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think just adjusting our expectations and again, normally normalizing the conversation around this and saying, are we really thinking clearly about this is a really helpful place to start.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's so right.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and really, you know, do the straw man test.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is so new for everybody.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: They those types of big changes to say, I'm gonna replace, I'm gonna have an AI exclusive marketing department that comes with extreme benefits, right?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: To your top and bottom line.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: It comes with some costs.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so having the mental fortitude to stay balanced in, okay, what do I lose there?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what you lose is now you're you are your marketing department because you have to manage all of that, right?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: You are you are creating a dependency on yourself.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we're also seeing the AI is looking a little bit, you know, similar.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so so I think thinking through it's again going back to those slow questions of what are my goals, and starting from that place instead of saying use AI to the extent you can at every cost, I think you're gonna lose some things, and it's those things are worth asking questions for and managing those expectations.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: I I we we had uh we've spoken many times with with uh Nate Herc and his whole thing was he was kind of on the opposite side, like that he shouldn't be re doing marketing because that's not actually where he's all about uh AI is best when it's it when it's your channel of your expertise, and you're using that tool to expand your area of expertise.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's all about input and how you can produce better or you know, additional outcomes, get the support for the things that are already in your skill set or expertise.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so I really loved that perspective.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: It kind of softened it for me.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um I appreciated this conversation because I kind of needed the other side, not hustle culture side of AI.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: I needed to have the real conversation, the human element, how we can how we can improve our skills um, both with AI, but in the space of having AI within our world.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: We all use AI every day.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: We love AI.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: We have we have found great use cases for it.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: We have also found where we really don't love or trust or want to have AI integrated into various things.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's a really valuable conversation to have.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_03: So definitely.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you both for creating the space for this type of conversation because it's not something I heard people be like, hey, can we stop the hustle on this, please?
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like I get the urgency, but I've got many.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: Except my potato output.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: I do want to 10x that.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: So embrace so hustle culture all in on the potatoes.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: Hustle all in.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: I will say, find like use AI in the in a joyous way.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: The way I found joy in designing my garden space using AI, like I was like a crack addict.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like that's how you should be using AI.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like be excited, feel motive, like a crack addict, shoot it straight.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: I don't actually know how you use crack.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: So is it a is it a snort or a shoot?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'll ask AI how to do crack.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then I also want it documented and memorialized here today that if Adele comes out with another album soon, it's completely because of WTF podcast.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you're welcome, Wilde.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: You're welcome.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: We've done it.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: Congratulations.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Can one point yes, yes to Adele.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: I hope she's a longtime listener of you all.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: That would be amazing.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Probably.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the thing I think if if someone could take away from this episode, it's there's a lot to learn about AI.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Start learning it in a way that you enjoy, right?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because then you're gonna learn a lot.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Use it for something that brings you joy.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna learn how to use it through that process, and then it you can extrapolate it to any other part of your life, your business, what have you.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: Totally 100% in agreement on that.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: It should feel fun.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's okay if it feels slow.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: I love that word applied to this.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Katie.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like Google Wisdom.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Candace, for growing a crop of potato.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'll send you, I'm not sure how they're gonna mail them.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna mail you like the world's tiniest potato, Katie.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: You linguistic queen, I don't know how we're related because your words are beautiful and I could listen to you all day.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes I really do get to, so like when we're trapped.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: If I could never.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: If I could never could never well, thank you, ladies, for having me a part of this conversation.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: It was so fun to just talk and learn and chat with you all.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Totally love it.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, wrapping up.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, like and subscribe, please.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like and subscribe.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Join us next time.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, bye.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that was today's episode of WTF.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: If you laughed, learned something, or felt a little less alone, make sure you hit follow and send this episode to a friend who might need it.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Women don't gatekeep, especially not the good stuff.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_03: We'll be back next week with more real talk, more stories, and probably more over sharing.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time on WTF.