Latest / Biblical Business Podcast / S1E7: Pruning Is Preparation
Transcript
- Calvin Seamons: I remember telling you there's a lot easier ways to make money. And that blew my mind. Like I was like, I do not believe you. Pers perspective is a superpower. So you go, I'm being pruned right now? Well, pruning is preparation. I was taking notes beforehand. So as we're hopping into today's conversation, I think the context that has to be necessary is we were not planning to have this episode of the podcast. We had a meeting two hours ago, two hours and one minute ago. And we just kept talking and kept talking and kept talking. And at some point I made the joke of, are we recording? Because I was enjoying the conversation so much. And man, this should be a podcast. And then it then became the decision of like, wait. do you have anything going on after this? And it's eight PM my time and yeah, you're working late anyways. And so it's like, let's just take this here and have a much more fun conversation that's actually being recorded. And so you know what? Sometimes you know you go, Okay, God, let's just go. Let's just go. Don't overthink it. He's got it, he's got a better plan than we do. Yes, dude, because you you've taught you drilled into me so much of like don't overthink it, because my tendency would just be it has to be perfect, and what are all the things that we could do to make it perfect? I think we just need to keep each other on our toes. And that's really it. That's really I almost I imagine like the the scripting, the podcast, the speed of this episode is almost like reminiscent of like an episode of Gilmore Girls to where like the speed like there's so much one of my wife's favorites, one of my wife's favorite series. Yes. You have to keep You're scoring points. Yep. You're scoring points. And so it reminds me more of like the bear, right? Where like the the first season of the bear where it's just chaotic, heard. Right. It's like We we it feels real because people are talking over each other and there's jump cuts and then there's holds and you're like, Where am I right now? But if you're somebody who talks and thinks fast, you're like, yeah, I'm here for this. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I feel at home. It's like a Nolan film. It's like it demands a certain level of attention. And if you zone out for like three minutes, you might be completely lost in what's going on. Well, the context of the conversation we're having, ultimately I think the umbrella umbrella was leadership. Enneagram was definitely the thing that led into it, with us having two different styles. Caveat on Enneagram, yes, I understand that some of its roots were from somebody who basically has a satanic approach. I understand that there's a lot of bad stuff that come from these things. None of these things are the word of God, none of them are absolute truth, but the things that are out of them as far as trying to understand how we think. can be useful when put through the context of a biblical worldview. All right, there's my that's my past performance is not a guarantee of future results for the Enneagram. I think that's a it's a necessary clause. And I think I think something I'm so grateful for in these conversations is it is two dudes who love Jesus who find supposedly supposedly supposedly love Jesus. Sorry. Yeah And who are just trying to figure it out. Can you tell this is a late the end of my day and not the beginning of my day? Yeah. This is like my bedtime. So the I think it's it is so the beauty of it is that like we are just trying to do our best of figuring out how to steward these businesses that are not ours and and that they are God's and it is messy because coming from a corporate environment, coming from a small business environment. You're just making up the r rules as you go. And and I think, man, it's like my education is like from these books from like other mentors. Yours is coming up in a corporate environment. And what it the realization is, is we have the same desire, the same heart of how can we serve God, love God, and honor God and what is true, what's helpful from these books from a corporate environment, but what differs. And because a lot differs. And one of the things that I think was so interesting from our conversation was about leadership. And I'm curious from your end, how how did your leadership style change when you started to really run things from a biblical business perspective? You know, I I my style has always been one where I had a desire to be a servant leader. I mean, when I was really young, like 1920 first jobs, it was very much I've got a lot to prove and I've got a lot of testosterone. And I've got to show everybody that I'm, you know, awesome. Yeah. And then you realize how dumb that is and how it doesn't work and how nobody likes you. And and I also never felt really authentic. I just felt like, I guess this is this is what I see other people doing. This is what I've seen in the movies. I'm tw I'm nineteen, I'm twenty. Like this is apparently what we need to do. And so the the punk rock though in me was like, How do I and I just became a Christian. And so it's like, how do I rebel a little bit? Okay, well, I'm gonna try and lead a different way. And then you realize there's this whole world of servant leadership that's existed for a really long time, like like Jesus time. And I started to apply that style, I would say. I think that what has what changed, and I and I always led from that style, what changed was really the perspective of whose all of this was, who, you know, that the people that I was leading, these were God's people. That my role wasn't to like, I wasn't putting on a hero cape. I I'm not the superhero. I'm not saving anybody. Like God is. Jesus is the one doing all the saving. And so what I'm called to do is decrease. And he has to increase. And so for me, the biggest shift is the only mark for me of success is is if as my quote influence business leadership grows, Jesus' name growing with it is the only true mark of success. If I grow in influence or my business 10Xs and I don't 10 X Jesus name being known, whether that's in how I deal with people, how I love people, how I share the gospel, then I'm really not I I haven't achieved anything. So okay. I know as an Enneagram 8 that you are have no issue with conflict. And and whipp and some people would say light conflict, which isn't true. Light light conflict? Like, like like conflict. I don't like conflict. Yeah. I feel like you you find ease in it. And not in a bad way, not in a mean way, but You you do not run for it that from run from it, that's for sure. I would say the best way that I can explain it to somebody who maybe doesn't think the same way would be that when I hear conflict, I hear raw truth. Because where there is conflict, there is very likely truth being told. It may be painful. It may be wrong. It may be, and by truth I mean, you know, authenticity, like somebody telling you they don't like something or they were upset about something or this bothered them. That it creates conflict because most people don't tell the truth. So, you know, I would say conflict and truth are two sides of a similar coin. Hmm. I, you know, so much of life I could see being put into a pendulum to where You know, you might be on one extreme, and if you have to learn a skill that you almost have to swing in the complete opposite direction to then ultimately land somewhere in the middle. And and so for me, I feel like I as an Enneagram 3, I could put on whatever hat I need to wear at a particular time. But I also have a very th my energy's high, high energy. But probably also leaning almost like too nice. And like I recognize that about myself. And so I feel like something I've had to learn from a leadership style is okay, I have to get really uncomfortably, uncomfortably honest. And it feels mean to me. And it's probably not gonna be mean. And realistically, it's like if I swing in the complete opposite direction, like as far as I think I can go. I it's probably not gonna be that mean. And then ultimately right. Your scale is different. Yes. And then I'm gonna land somewhere in the middle and find almost my style of how I like to lead to where hey I'm gonna be kind. and that's a good natural gravitation for me. I'm going to probably choose peace, but if there's times where I'm challenged, I'm not afraid to go on this other side anymore and get uncomfortable being uncomfortable or get comfortable being uncomfortable. And that had to be like a learned thing for me. And I was particularly curious for you, if you felt like from a leadership style, you're so comfortable in the conflict that you had to learn the kindness and then ultimately find your find your style along the way. I think that it there's a there's a misconception that Especially as you start like putting people into certain boxes. I don't know, it depends on the environment you're in. Like in the banking environment, we did this other sort of call it personality or style test. And I don't even remember what it was called, but I remember the colors because they had everybody who took it put these these four blocks of colors on their desk so that people would know their communication style. And so the colors were red, green, blue, and yellow. And red was be brief, be bright, be gone. Okay. This was like your, let's call it the Enneagram eight or just whatever you would call like a type, a heavy type A, okay, whatever that means. blue was show me the details. Green was show me you care. And yellow was involve me. Now, everybody at the bank in this corporate environment, they were there were so many people who were. Foolishly proud of how red they were. Right. And so you'd walk in and you have to stack your your colors in the order in which they are dominant, right? Like you're more red or you're more this. So that people coming in know, hey, I just came to McLean's desk. He's high yellow. He wants to be involved. How do I involve him? And so there's there's helpful stuff there. But there was like this idea that the more red you were, the more likely you were to be a high-level leader. So it was like. romanticizing the idea of being you can call it direct, but I would say just like being a jerk or being, you know, very no nonsense. And I I think people were really surprised when I took it, I was very heavy on green and blue. Very heavy. Show me you care, show me the details. R they were almost all the same level with some slight variance. But like I thought it was I didn't want to be red. You know, like and I thought the most valuable thing is to show people that you care. And so I I think that this the thing I had to learn was not to not be myself or be the authentic version of me, but not to give in to the sinful desires of my heart in pride and ego. That lead to being overly direct and being harsh, right? Like those are not the be brief, be bright, be gone is like I'm sorry, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Well, no, I didn't hear anything about like say it fast, be smart about it, and get out of my way. and so I think there's a way to what I learned was there's a way to share your care while also speaking the truth. And it's really just a biblical principle, right? It's the truth in love. The truth in love still requires the truth. So if you're only if you're sharing a lie in love, that is the opposite of the call. And if you're sharing the truth without love, that is the opposite of the call. So I think it's really, I mean, just like anything, going back to what God says in his word is the best advice that any one of us can take. So I had to I what I learned, I would say, is that I could actually do that and it would lead to really awesome things in business, where people probably thought it wouldn't have I should have just been a little bit more of a whatever fill in the blank and then that I would have really moved up. What took chain that change for you? Because as an eighteen, nineteen year old high testosterone. you had a completely different approach. And once you realize that no one liked that approach and maybe it wasn't quite as effective, because sure you have things to prove, but that might not be the best avenue to get that, what were the lessons you had to learn to get into more of a territory that displayed the fruits of the spirit? I think that realizing that, you know, it's not from the east or the west or the south, but it is it is from God that he raises one up and puts another one down. Like God puts you in the position that you're in, in the place that you're in, under the people that you're under for a reason. And a lot of what that sort of harsh approach is is bred out of insecurity. And so, you know, it was like I r I remember coming to the bank and this lady telling me, I've been doing this longer than you've been alive. And I was like, wow. You know, that that's amazing. I'm really looking forward to like learning so much from you. The reason I was I learned to do that was because like, well, I I already am the regional manager. Like that that's just the truth. Why I don't need to prove that to this person. I'm in the position that I'm in for a reason. And also, gosh, I could learn so much from this person. And so bring them along. And that completely disarmed her. And then we became really close. And I was able to learn a lot of things. And so It's like also in humility, knowing, yeah, you might be in the position that you're in, but that position is a position of stewardship. And so lording it over people, I mean, nobody likes that. And I didn't I didn't like the way I felt doing that either. I tried it. Trust me. I tried it. I tried, you know, when I first first job, nineteen years old. And I had a great mentor, a woman named Kim Washington, and you know, she just brought me so she's like, Honey, like this is not that's not it. You you gotta make some adjustments here. and so I started to, you know, inch by inch. But y you learn that when you know that you're where you are in whatever season you are in your life for a reason and God's put you there and he's also in control of what happened next or happens next, you can rest. You can rest easy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think for for me there was a lot of times where I was I was always young for my position. And I think something I tried. And I think for me, what I tried to do was just like call it out ahead of time. like like let's not I'm not gonna pretend like this. I got a pimple on my head. Yep. Yeah, right. Yeah. I think too, it's like it in some ways, I guess my my belief in it and my logic in it is that at a certain level it shows humility to not br step into a situation thinking I know everything, but instead knowing, hey, you You know more about this than I do in certain ways. I I'm gonna call that out before you we even start developing that relationship. And I'm gonna ask you questions because especially in a like an onset environment, you've seen things that I've not seen before. And if you can tell me that ahead of time and help me avoid that pitfall, that's gonna help us all as a team way more effectively than me trying to, you know, boost my own ego. And unnecessarily. How did how did you but how did it play out with when you're especially in the world, I would say industry that you're in? Like how how did you fight against that desire to basically be kind of whatever the situation demanded and like adjust your personality based on who you were dealing with? Like essentially the art of in sales what we call mirroring. Yes. where you just mirror whatever the the other person is doing. How did you Like find ways to deal with that so that you could show up authentically when, you know, you probably had this desire to not do that. Yeah. I you know, when it you kinda said the term mirroring, and I think as like the Enneagram three, I definitely asked the question of like what hat do I need to put on in this situation? And I think the advantage came from not hopping right into business, but actually slowing down enough to care for somebody and get to know them a little bit. And I think once that relationship starts to get built, then it's easier to you could figure out who they are as a person and how they work. And then if I need to call those things out, right? If I need to call out, yeah, I you have more knowledge than me in these certain things, then it eases into that conversation a little bit better. But it's that the same trope of like You know, no one cares how much you know unless you show them how much you care. Yeah. And it it really is just slowing down and and then exhibiting the fruits of the spirit with that. From from a coaching perspective, do do you see do you see the clients that come to you who are learning how to run a biblical business struggle with their leadership style now that they're beginning to incorporate Jesus into a part of their life that that they did not give up before that? Big time. Big time. I mean, I think we all struggle with it, but it especially becomes a struggle when you become aware. Like it it it may have already been a struggle before, but now, you know, I'm advising you and coaching you that we're meeting, you know, a couple times a month or whatever, and I'm going like, Hey, how how's this going? How did you show up here? and I think that can be challenging. I think, you know, one of the one of the most dangerous things about being a s especially a small business entrepreneur, CEO, high level leader. Is the lack of accountability. It's that you walk into every room you're in in your business and you're you're that guy or you're that girl. And you know, who do you have that is asking you questions about where you're at in your faith, how you are applying it in the business, like holding you accountable. Like show me and tell me how you applied this into your business this week. And That's kind of a it's a very vulnerable place to be, especially for a leader who's used to being the one calling all the shots. So yeah, I think it's all like super interesting to me to watch different leaders grow and develop over time and even see people who I've started with who like right after they start, they just it's spiritual attacks. As soon as they start applying some of this big biblical wisdom, there is stuff that comes out of nowhere to you know, basically deter them from continuing in it and persevering there and and staying and obeying what God's put on your heart is sometimes it can be really difficult, you know? And I think that I think a lot of it's interesting because especially through social media, right? You have a lot of people because I'm a business operator and I've quote, you know, operated successful and continue to operate successful businesses from the world's definition, they want the sauce, you know, like they want to know how to do it, how to 10X and 2X and 5X, their business. And it's kind of fun for me because like part of my sh deal up front is like, hey, we're gonna work together for at least a year. Like I if if you're looking to have somebody come work with you for a month to help you like install a system to get more ad conversion, then there's lots of people for you That can run that. And that's kind of a shock to the system. You know, I think that we all need real accountability as part of why I'm, you know, I've said it before, but you know, God willing, I'll always be a member of C12. And Tom Walter, who's my C12 chair here in the inland Northwest, like he holds me accountable and he's asking me the questions like, How are you doing in this? You're out here talking to people, like how how are you doing? How are you applying it? What does Jen think? What's your what's your time with God look like right now? And because the thing is, all the people who listen to podcasts and who watch videos, we can answer all the business questions really easy. It's the other ones that that kind of put a stumbling block in front of us, like, cool. how much time have you spent in the Word this week? Yeah. And you're like, Ruh ro. You know, and that's w we need that. We we need that kind of accountability. We all do, you know. I think a take far before you and I started working together in a coaching capacity, a take I always had was if Olympic athletes have coaches, I am not above that. And there's areas in every part of my life that I can be growing, you know, if that's my health, if that's my marriage, if that's my business. And you you get hyper specific with any of those. And I find that there's just so much advantage in someone who does the thing and is an expert in that thing and studies it and hopefully practices it. Learning from them is going to help expedite your learning far faster than you reading a book or you trying to figure it out on your own. And at a certain point it's worth that investment just to be able to expedite that time that it would take to actually learn that skill. And so with that, like I think it's hard because biblical business is a really hard thing. Because it's so antithetical. And so what what where do you find that sort of accountability when you are like the person, when there's like no one else that's a top dog beyond you? You know, it it's finding those local communities, even the digital communities, finding people that you respect and you, you know, see the way they think, see the way that they live their life, see what their family looks like, see what their business looks like, and then like just close mouths and don't get fed, right? So you just you ask and you find it. I I I always find it fascinating, like we'll how fast are we to invest in like, I don't know. a super cool marketing campaign or a crazy cool AI tool or even our health, right? There's a lot of like wellness, you know, stuff like we're gonna go get an executive blood work and do all this stuff so that I have longevity. And it's like, well, how about your eternity? You worried about that? How much are you investing money? Okay, let's just money and time in your sharpening of your faith in every aspect of your life. Because that's a good question to ask, right? And so groups like C twelve, groups like the Faith Driven Entrepreneur, groups like Convene, groups like I and I don't know all the names of all of them, but like the places where you can find community and be around people who love Jesus who will hold you accountable is good. But also you just need one person. You know, like you also don't need to overcomplicate this. You can Get with somebody that you know that you love and trust and say, Hey, I'm looking for some accountability in my my walk with the Lord through the business. Can you like check in with me once a week? Like send me a voice note to ask me how I'm doing with, you know, spending time with the Lord, praying over decisions at work, you know, integrating my faith into the business. You don't have to like, yeah, you can you can come join my biblical business community, you know. For a thousand bucks a year. You can you can come become a coaching client of mine. Yeah. Or you can just call your neighbor and the or your butt, your best buddy from college and be like, hey man, I need some accountability on this. And we have accountability partners for a bunch of other stuff. Why not have a biblical business accountability partner? You know, they don't have to know the business. They just need to be able to ask you the questions. What are the questions? I mean, a very easy one is how. Are you integrating your faith and demonstrating it through your business right now? And if your answer is the same every week and you're like, I pray for my customers and I, you know, like, okay. But like back to the we were talking about doing the podcast, right? Like 1% better. Yeah. You know, you're not competing with anybody. I'm not competing with anybody. I'm competing with me yesterday. I want to be the best version of me that God has has, you know, He's given me an opportunity to steward this life. What can I do to just continue to steward that well so that you hear well done, good and faithful servant? And those questions are, they don't have to be that complicated. It's like, that's what's kind of crazy. You know, I mean, I have I have clients who some of them maybe we spend a lot more time talking about the nuts and the bolts of how to do certain things or managing finance or executing on ops or strategies on, you know, X, whatever. But then there's others where like we spend entire sessions. Just talking about their walk with the Lord. That's it. Or just talking about their marriage and how the businesses, how they can build things in the business to make sure it doesn't impact their marriage negatively, that it actually creates a positive association. And it's like, okay, what's the value of that? You know, what's the value of you thinking about everything you do through a biblical lens? I think, you know, I don't know. It's pr it's pretty high. So A lot of it is just a decision. It's a decision to go, okay, I don't have to solve the whole world right now. I just need to pull out my phone, find a contact and say, Hey, can you ask me every few can we meet and can you ask me every few weeks like how it's going in the business and how I'm, you know, demonstrating the faith more and reaching more people and demonstrating Jesus to them in the business? Can you just ask me that every couple of weeks? Can we meet? Done. Before you joined C twelve, you were in a different group. And I want to know what the difference was between that other group and C twelve. No knock on on it. Vistage was the name of of what I was in prior. And it's a it's essentially a a place where you process things, right? So it's other high level leaders. The the biggest difference was you would meet and it was essentially like a place where you're talking about how to 10x your business. Right. So like just think of it top to bottom, how you can do operations. I'm sure now they're talking about AI. They're doing this. And then they would bring in speakers every every meeting. And so I think it was like essentially an in-person version of a group that can help you to grow your quote, grow your business. Nothing to do with any, you know, like a biblical worldview or Christian worldview. not to say there there weren't a bunch of Christians in there. Absolutely. I I was in it because I just didn't know about C twelve. I didn't even know C twelve was a thing. And honestly, I would say eight out of ten people I talked to, maybe more, Christian business people have no idea what C twelve is, never heard of it, which is crazy to me because it's such an awesome organization and they've got five or six or ten thousand they've got a lot of people all over the world. but then it felt like the consultants were just coming and selling me something. So like you bring somebody in who's gonna talk about their book or their software. Or EOS or whatever the system was, because they're a consultant for that thing. And then they're they're basically their prospecting deals because you've got a bunch of CEOs or high level leaders in the room who you can convert to buy whatever you're selling. And so I'm like, I'm cool, man. Like at the time, it wasn't just that that that part bothered me. It was that I was seeking something more. I was seeking excellence in business through a biblical worldview. That was what mattered to me. I I I didn't want to just hear about how to ten X of my business. I wanted to hear about well, what does God say about this? And that's when that's when he showed me C twelve. And and I mean biblical business and my my community and all none of it it would exist without C twelve. C twelve literally changed the course of everything that I've done and changed the course of my whole life. So that's why I have such loyalty to to Mike Sherrow, the CEO over there, and and everything that that C twelve is doing and I always will. And so what were some things that you learned? inside of C twelve. I mean, I'm still learning. the first thing I learned was the concept of business as a ministry. They call it BAM. and that your faith and your work have never been separate and that your work is a ministry. And that you can measure a lot in your business, but if you're not measuring the things that matter, then you're kind of you're kind of stuck. The I would say, and I've already told the C twelve guys this, so I can tell you that. The the biggest challenge I had with C twelve, and part of the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing with social media is because there's a there's a revenue requirement. So, you know, I would say w with C twelve, it costs anywhere from I don't know, it depends on the market you're in, but twelve hundred to two thousand dollars a month to be a part of it. And you meet once a month for the whole day and you sit around a room of other peers and you go through a full curriculum. They have an app. And your facilitator facilitates it. And then you have one-on-ones with your with your chair outside that a one-on-one meeting once a month as well. The the problem is that like you need to have I I can't I I they might have changed it, but it's like five million top line and at least or 10, 10 employees or something like that. And so when you look at the state of small business and you look at especially right now, there's so many people, the majority of small businesses are under that. And I understand why C12. has done that, it's because, you know, they found that they're trying to build a very sticky place that people stay. So like I've been in C12 for four years and our group really hasn't changed. It's only gotten more and more people. Very few people leave. They have a very high retention rate. Whereas when you're in the smaller business, you have way more like, 2,000 bucks a month. Well, cash flow is tight right now, so I can't afford it. And people done people ripcord out of it. And you know, that can create disruption when you're trying to create intimacy with a group of people. so there's a level of like commitment and you need to make all the meetings and not miss more than like two a year. so you've got to schedule your calendar around it. So I'm like, okay, how do I reach the rest of this group, you know, who can't afford that, but wants to get biblical wisdom toward their business. And so that was like a big part of my heart toward toward doing this was filling that gap, what I what I perceived as a gap. You know, I think so often when you start moving in the direction that the Lord has for you, a lot of different things could happen. I think in some ways it could become abundantly easy and almost too easy. I think in other ways that there seems to just be a become a spiritual attack that happens. Yeah. And I I'm curious of some of the examples that you might have seen of of either of those occasions. Man, you know, I would say the the Lord's wind has been in my sail since I made this since he gave me the realization that I needed to lead a business for Jesus from the front door, which came from joining C twelve. But it was stirring before that, because I was like, how do I plug into a community? You know, I need I want biblical wisdom while I'm leading business. I want to do this different than I've done it before. And and so From that point, like I it's hard to explain just how many amazing things have happened and this the the success that has happened in in business. and at the same time, there's all kinds of spiritual attacks along the way, whether it was the devastation of relationships or y I mean mostly it was relational, I would say, which is kind of interesting. I think that There was also a lot of like, I don't know, every now and then there would be a really big roadblock. And it would wasn't really a roadblock, it was like a fork in the road on a decision needing to be made. And like that step of obedience was kind of what's required. And I would say the first time that I felt like I needed to take that step was was hard. And then the second time was easier, and the third time was even easier. And now I'm like, fork in the road. Cool God, where are we going? And I just I pull this, I put the sail up and then I wait. I wait and the wind blows and it t it sends me down whatever path he wants me to go on. And so I think a lot of times it's like people trying to figure out what to do. You make a decision. And if you don't feel a sense of peace after you make that decision, you know, maybe there's maybe there's something there to like marinate on, you know. But if if you make the decision to do stuff and then you're like, wow, there's so much peace in this, then You know, it's kinda like, man, God, the wind is at my back. and it doesn't mean that it's been easy. It's been anything but easy. It's just yeah, it's not it's it's simple, not complicated. You know, I think something that you said was you pull the sail and you wait and wait and you wait. And I think that idea is something I learned from you that feels so opposite. Of a typical corporate culture to where you make a decision and you move and there needs to be a consistent movement. And why is this thing not going at the pace that you're expecting it to? Yeah. And so can you give maybe some examples of you pull the sail and you wait and what that looks like and how you develop that philosophy? Yeah, I I think that. The pulling of the sale and waiting is like a great example would be joining Sherman. You know, there was like I I it was probably three months of conversations with Dan, Dan Pinkerton, before I pulled the sale up. And then once the sale was up, then it was like getting into the doors at Sherman. It was the weird it was the weirdest thing, right? Because What got me there was the the structure to give away 51%. But then when I got in the door, like it was a complete mess. Way messier than I thought. So then it was like, well, practically what that looked like is of course, yes, I'm getting in here, but there are things that I'm, you know, only God can change. Some things are going to take, like I thought, for instance, it would take us a really long time to, you know, pay off the company debt, maybe five years. The wind in the sail is that it was like two years and a month or two. You know, it was like which I couldn't explain, right? Cause the math didn't make sense to me. So it was like waiting on God and it's not even it's like you're waiting on him, but you're still putting the sail up, which is a decision. And so you're making these decisions. And when you make those decisions, then you find out. how much wind is in your sail or how fast and how far you're gonna go. And when you look at s the the growth and all the changes and the things that have happened and then the other it's like, well, that level of speed and change and like all of these things working together can can only be explained by the sail being blown by God. So it's it's like it's it's like he he's showing off at that point. Yeah. I I think the story that comes to mind for me is just as an example of understanding what it means to wait and how the Lord's timing is not ours and how that reflects in the business is I remember you were initially talking to someone to step in potentially as like a head of operations. Then for whatever reason the the schedules missed and you know we're trying to connect and it was just like wasn't happening and almost in a way became hard. And like that's how I would describe it. There was just some resistance to where it was not as easy as it could have been. And then with me stepping on as like the head of ops, it was so it was so easy. It was like effortless. It was worse than that. I don't know. That's like the that's the light version. it was like this guy was basically hired. Really? And then ripcorded The morning of the start date. Re I did not know that. Yes. Yes. And was like, you know, told me all the reasons why and whatever. And I mean, he even just recently like messaged me like, hey man, it's so amazing to see everything you guys are doing. But I was like super offended, right? And and at the same time, then in the post, I'm talking to my team and they're like, I don't know if he was the best fit. I'm like, what? How come you didn't say this before? And Jen was like, I don't know. Well, it was I was moving hastily during that. So I was I was like, I think I had put the sale up and then I was like, I'm trying to like trying to move this thing. Yeah. And in God's absolute graciousness, he made the decision to pull out because I believe it would have been the wrong thing for the company. And so I feel like that's an example of like You know, me trying to manufacture wind, like it's Truman show. and and like then then that doesn't happen because clearly I'm blowing on it and nothing's moving. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, you know, God shifts the wind, and then I re put the sail up, and then the conversation with you was just like it just we just flew. We just went. Yeah. Didn't didn't didn't try, wasn't planning it. Didn't know which way the wind was blowing me, and then like the wind just blew me to this little tropical island. Was that a hard thing to unlearn coming from the corporate environment? It's a hard thing to unlearn for me every day. I I I I am I have a desire to move things. And I am so so many days I have to just every day I have to wake up and remind myself of how little. How how I have literally no control over these things, and how what my call is to is to be obedient to what God's put in front of me today and to ask myself the question, why am I doing this? So, like when I go back, so to unlearn, for example, when I go back, I ask myself why I was moving that way. And it was fear, hastiness, it was. you know, I had just had somebody else come out of the business. So I was feeling away about that. And I wanted to like get a win, right? And so it's like the motivation was just all wrong. and so yeah, I think the unlearning is like, especially I would say, if you go back to like the Enneagram eight or just like when you're unhealthy, like you don't really have good self awareness, you know, and even realizing Later in life, like that it takes me a long time to process things. Like it might take six months that I thought I processed it, then it like comes back up. And I'm like, yeah, I never actually dealt with that. and so yeah, I I've had to unlearn, unlearn or learn just that my ways are not his ways. And I don't want my ways. I just don't. And so whatever it looks like on the other side of that, I'm I'm happy with. I know I'll be better, it's gonna be better anyway. What are some typical signs that maybe the Lord is moving at a different pace than you are? Specifically when it comes to the business. I think when we're trying to force things and they're just really not going, they're not going the way we want them to go. It's like, like, are you are you ready to listen yet? And I think we're such fighters that we're like, you know, maybe this is warfare and you know, we need to just push through this. And I think it it comes back to asking yourself the question, what's driving you right now? Why do you want this so bad? And if you can answer that question, it usually reveals the the challenge that's in front of you. But I mean I I don't know. I think I it's there's no silver bullet. It's not like, well, if the business isn't growing, or if people a bunch of people are quitting on you, or if, you know, there's no silver bullet because there's also right the truth of, you know, those that bear fruit, right, God prunes that they may bear more fruit. So you can be doing good things and bearing great fruit, and then it's gonna get it might get pruned. I mean, not might. God says he will prune so that more fruit can grow. So I think that. That rhythm, that kind of double Dutch rhythm, I've seen that kind of play out a lot where I feel like there was a pruning period for then more fruit. And then there was a pruning period and then wow, even more fruit. And so you almost learn to love the pruning period because you you know pers perspective is a superpower. So you go, I'm being pruned right now. Well, pruning is preparation. What what do you feel like? In this season, the Lord is teaching you about business. I'm writing down pruning is preparation because I feel like that's a decent hook for the internet. you said, What am I learning? What do you yeah, what do you feel like the Lord is teaching you in this season of business? Well, I feel like you should ask that qu answer that question because I feel like a lot of times the questions that you ask are like a reflection of sort of where you're at in your mind. In a lot of ways, but we don't get to necessarily always hear where that rabbit trail goes because you put the question on me. So what is the Lord teaching you at business right now? Sure. I think it's funny. Like I I think you're I'm gonna first zoom out and like address the c the point of like when you ask a question, right? What makes you ask the question of what makes a good question? And it is a genuine sense of curiosity. And I think that's something that is really fun about our conversations. Is that you are you know a few years ahead when it comes to biblical business and more than a decade ahead when it comes to just business. Okay, all right. And and so I'm saying that because it's like I am genuinely curious. And so the the filter that I come through is okay, I see how this is directly impactful for me. I'm genuinely curious of this because I want to hear how you process it, because I am probably actively processing it. actively learning it or I want to learn it in some capacity. And so, you know, to to answer your question, it is a weird stage. And I I know we've talked about it in a previous episode where, you know, for the past two years, you know, twenty twenty, twenty four, twenty twenty five, we almost triple the business like two years in a row. And so like we're riding high, like, you know, feeling really good. We're figuring out how to build, we're figuring out how to scale. And you know, we we started the coaching process about a year ago, like a little bit over a year ago. And and so grateful for that. Learned so much in even just like that last in in the few three months of us coaching together. And then I decided to take forty days off. and forty days off of everything where it was like I'm just gonna not just close the business but or Close being relative. I'm gonna step away actively managing it while my team operates and manages through the month of December plus a little bit before, a little bit after. In that time, turned off my phone, turned off my laptop. If you wanted to get in touch with me, you had to retouch my wife, but I didn't tell you how to reach out to my wife, so you had to figure out how to get in touch with my wife. And if you needed me that badly, yeah, good luck. So They'd have to go to the park. Yeah, they gotta go to the they gotta go to Disney if they want that. So then good luck, good luck getting her autographed. Lots of people want it. Exactly. So then in in January I come back and the the message a mentor of mine left me with was like, Just because you were faithful does not mean the Lord's gonna reward that. And you know, thankfully I came back and it was like we had lined up in the sales pipeline more than we had made the year before. And so I'm like, we're about to cook. Like this is about to be a good year. And then suddenly just everything kind of starts dissipating. And like, you know, people are making investments in other directions. or you know, they're gonna go with this, you know, director instead of that one. And it's like, okay, got it. And you know, it becomes it's not a big deal. And I think a few months into it, it was like, Okay, hang on a second. How we I think we gotta where she's going. Where's this going? Yeah, where's the marketing efforts? And I was grateful because we had started coaching before that. So I had like seven months just set aside of OpEx just in case something were to happen. And what became was like that seven months became the the winter that I wasn't expecting, right? And it was it wasn't like we hit a switch in the winter. I come to you and I'm like, give me some, give me some ideas. You know, what what are you doing? How can I 10x my business? Yeah, right. And man, you you were like post seven times a day for the next fourteen days. And man, that was like that was something. You learn I learned a lot about myself and it was hell weak. It was hell weak, dude. Yeah, it really was. and then it became, you know, coming out of that, you know, you and I are just talking and it's like big picture. And I think it was like realis realizing like there are different types of heart. And there's there's the hard that hey, I'm working out and I'm feeling good and I'm getting stronger. And there's the hard of I'm working out and my back and my knee does not feel quite like it should. And and at that point, you know, you you just have to look at it and be like, Do I change my workout? Do I stop the workout? Do I, you know, X, Y, Z? And you know, I'm asking like the big picture questions of like, why did I get into this? Like, do I like this? Like, is this what I love and is this what I'm good at? And I think you know, basically those questions led you to ask some other great questions of and you know, grilling me of like, what are my favorite parts about business? You know, what you know, what if I had like all day to work on the business, what would I be working on? things like and then just some great call outs. do you do you remember what you said? Because you're gonna probably about what? anything in that conversation. like you're gonna remember probably word for word what you said better than I will. 'cause I remember Yeah, go for it. I mean I I remember obviously I remember telling you there's a lot easier ways to make money. And that blew my mind. Yeah. Like I was like, doing Well, because we walk obviously we walk through it and I'm like, Okay, cool, like run me through it. Here's the numbers. I'm like like you you know there's a lot easier ways to make money. Especially somebody who's, you know, talented and experienced and dynamic and hungry and will work hard. You know, like there's th it's not for everybody. I'm not saying it's easier for everybody. That question that statement was for you. Sure. Yes. Yes. And man, it rocked my world. Cause at first I was like, he's wrong. And then and then I like in time I wait so what so what was the Lord teaching? What is the Lord teaching you in this season then? So the Lord, okay, yeah, yeah. So the Lord was, you know, teaching him that was hey, maybe I have something else for you. And maybe I always believe where you are right now is exactly where you're supposed to be. Like I felt like the Lord has made that evident in my life consistently. And so so what the what God is teaching you in the business is that what you plan for and what you think should be next, not only may it might it not be next, but it may not be the best thing for you, what you think, and you can't even imagine. what that next thing is that I might have for you. And just really which which comes down to like teaching you to trust him. Yes. And and I think I it's still the process of actively asking those questions of like, God, is there something that I need to learn? Yeah. Because the business is not closed, right? It's like we're still going. But man, it's like I'm questioning it. And and 'cause there are easier ways to make more money. And I think the really good thing God might be calling you to just go all in on the Biblical Business Podcast. W which is I mean, that's a genuine thought because I think the fact of a sponsor, a potential sponsor after episode one, like an editor coming in. Yeah, but what if none what if none of that's true though? What if you know what if because remember, it's like it's we we we're in the upside down. Right? Like But do you not see those as green lights? I do, but then I also go like, okay, but does it really make sense for me to be doing as much social media as I do and putting out a book and spending time coaching people and doing a podcast? Like, couldn't I just keep running as president CEO of a pretty successful investment research firm and like just enjoy the the rest of the time? Like why would I put myself through that other stuff? That doesn't make any sense. Yeah. So why do you because I I believe that God has clearly called me to this. I want to reach people and share Jesus' love through excellence in business. And I know that He has given me a level of energy and ability to context switch and things that I know I have to steward. So how can I steward them for his glory versus for me to get more stuff? And Yeah. This is what he's put in these are the things that he's put in front of me. So I'm like, cool, cool, God. I'm gonna keep I'm just gonna keep going. And listen, we talked about this early on because when when you and I started working together, I think, you know, I was pretty early on the social media journey. I I could have just stopped after a few months when I had like in in December, six months in when I had eight thousand followers, was like, Well, am I like, okay, tried it. Yeah, yeah. You know, because what's success? Is six is success, well, now I'm making a bunch of money off of my social media views and I have all these brand deals. And so now it makes sense. No, no. And I didn't really take brand deals. I mean, I literally in the entirety of the one year period, even up until now, I've done one video, one 30-second video that I got paid for. Every other brand whatever deal I've said no to. And It probably would have made more sense to say yes to a bunch of stuff and bring in a bunch of money from it. But like I don't I don't know. I don't know. It's this it goes back to the whole like the book and like not getting endorsements and just being like and I know you could make the argument, well, that's dumb and if you do this, then it'll get more but like I don't know. I feel clear about it. I feel clear. And where I feel clear and feel peace, I just move. So But at the same time, to in a lot of people's eyes, it just makes sense. Yeah. And and I think where I'm at right now is I'm trying to make sense of it in some degree. Perhaps that is me trying to reach for control. But well, and like you said, like it is God like, did did you plan? Did we plan to do this? No, this came out of nowhere. Right. Did we plan for it to go as easy? No, we didn't. Okay. Like I agree with you. Those things do feel like green lights because that's the whole just do something. So you just do something. And then do you feel got the wind of of God in your sail? Like, okay, keep keep boating. Just steer that thing. Yeah. Cause it feels right now. It's like I I it feels like I'm being redirected. And I don't know in what capacity and I don't know how, but what I do know is where I am is where I'm supposed to be. And that's a great thing for you to like sit in, right? Like I to know because there's a lot of times it's like we know. We just don't want to say it. Because we know if we say it, it it becomes a thing. Yeah. So like I I knew a lot at a certain point, like, yep, this is what I must do. And and I think for me, even before I signed on with Sherman, it was less about Sherman. It was less about the opportunity. It was more of I see this as an opportunity for me to go get my master's degree in business biblical business. And I think this podcast is even deeper than You're getting you're getting a master's from me, brother. You're gonna be getting that that whatever that low ball version is. Yeah. I don't know, man. But there's a lot of amazing people on the team. And I think what's really genuinely, like I really that's not false humility. I think like you get to we you're getting to see the inner workings of like what it looks like and how to lead it and what kind of decisions you make and how do you deal with this thing and how do you deal with that thing. So in that sense, I completely agree with you. And you know, I that's the gift that I have. That's the gift. That I could never you know, like I could never thank Dan enough because he gave me the first opportunity to live out leading a biblical business before I even had a name for it. Yeah. And I feel like in a way, this is what what's so weird is two things. One, this feels closer to working at Sherman, it feels closer to the life I was trying to get with Shallant than my own company did. Right. And it's like w what I what do I want? You know, man, I want to be able to work wherever I want in the world, and have a lot of flexibility in terms of like you know, like the the timing of things and the grace, but also to be able to like love people well and you know, show people Jesus by the way I show up and sh and have stability and like, you know, all that unlimited PTO. And it's like I, you know, when you own the business, it's like Man, it's hard to get from the point of like you're working in the business to on the business. And dude, yeah, but listen, it was the same thing for me. The that my biggest struggle was that when I was at the suspension company and God put up, you know, gave me this like, well, I need to lead a business for Jesus from the front door. My whole mind was to buy that business. My whole mind was if I wasn't gonna buy that business, I would buy a different business. I was looking at other businesses to buy. And then when Dan approached me, it was like, no, one, I'm not wanna go to fight back to finance. and two, no, I I need to be the owner of the business. That's the whole point here. And then God just like laid on my heart, you you thought you owned any of this. Yeah. All of these businesses, right? So then the only thing that I needed to be clear about was the only thing that I was clear about with Dan, which was like, one, it's going to be Jesus from the front door. Two, if you're trying to hire me and the board wants me to do what they want to do, then find somebody else because I'm going to lead this the way that I want to lead it, and all I want you to do is Get out of my way, please. And he completely's like, that's why I want you. And it was like, okay. but there was like, okay, again, pride is a sneaky weed. It's like, well, why did I want to like go buy my buy the business or not? Because I wanted it. And then in God's grace, he allowed me to then start my own business. And I I don't think I've ever told you this story. Actually, I've told you this story, but I've never shared on the podcast. A year, two years ago, two years ago, I don't remember when it was. Had a whole conversation for months and months. And the plan was to be c completely move out of Sherman in the sense that I wanted to become a f contractor, the Sher and Sherman could hire my company, Kingdom Mindset Investing, to contract me as a CEO so that I would own my own business. Right. And I could f I felt I would feel good. I didn't want to like feel anything about like starting Doing private advising and all the other stuff. And so I mean, I went to the board and like presented this whole thing to them. And I'm like, yeah, this is gonna be crazy, right? Cause they're gonna like, hey, this is what I want to do. Well, they didn't want to me to become a contractor. And then they suggested, Dan suggested, Well, what if you just did both? Why don't you stay here as the president CEO, stay on as a, you know, W two employee and go start your business? Like, we would support that. A hundred percent. And I'm like, what? So that's like have your cake and eat it too. Yeah. Only God could could make that plan. Yes. And that's how I feel with Shalon. I feel like even just your kindness in it is like, hey, I I get to actively manage biblical business. I get to see the inner workings of it. I get to s understand how how to think about leadership in a different capacity and how the Lord shows up in this. And now I get to bring this over to my own company. And like continue to love my employees and to be able to bless them and bless our clients and just like think about it from a completely different perspective. And that's so cool to me. Yep. A hundred percent. And I think it's the it's the cool thing that then from my learning that, then it's like, well, I I already am an outcome-based person. So I'm like, cool. Like let's let's go and let's just see what God does. and you know, and then you get to see all the amazing, cool ways that God uses that, right? Like God has used Like the social media platform, for example, like I say, like I posted a video yesterday about a job opening. We have two thousand applicants. you know, and the one that I did before that, we had like five thousand applicants from my personal social media to to bring somebody amazing to Sherman. And we hired somebody amazing at Sherman marketing. We're probably gonna have another amazing person. And it's like, I couldn't have planned that. Right? Only God could plan all of this. And so I I don't know. It's like Yeah. You s you said it right. It's like learning learning to trust that his plans are better than yours. And don't be under the illusion that you're under more control or any control really than you think you are. You're you're you're in control of your obedience today. Man, I love I think I think we wrap it there. That was that was spark.