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Graham Platner on Running as Himself · Politics Between Us

0:02
SPEAKER_03: I'm Allison Bia.
0:03
I'm in my 50s,
0:04
I live here in Maine,
0:05
and I have decades of civil rights work behind me.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: And I'm Luca DeAngelis.
0:09
I'm in my 20s,
0:10
living in New York City,
0:11
and I'm just trying to figure things out.
0:13
Luca and I have been talking about politics and our personal
0:15
lives for over a decade now.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and now we're bringing that conversation to you.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: This is a project about politics,
0:21
SPEAKER_00: purpose,
0:21
SPEAKER_00: and how to live a good life across generations,
0:24
SPEAKER_00: across disagreements,
0:25
SPEAKER_00: and across 30 years.
0:27
SPEAKER_03: This is Politics Between Us.
0:39
SPEAKER_03: Welcome,
0:39
SPEAKER_03: everyone,
0:40
SPEAKER_02: to Episode 6 of Mud Season,
0:42
SPEAKER_02: our limited series about the U.S.
0:44
Senate primary race here in Maine between Governor Janet Mills
0:48
and newcomer Graham
0:49
SPEAKER_02: Plattner.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: The primary is in just about a week and a half,
0:53
SPEAKER_02: but with Governor Mills suspending her campaign a few weeks ago,
0:58
SPEAKER_02: Plattner really is our presumptive nominee,
1:00
SPEAKER_02: and he'll be taking on Susan Collins in the fall.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
1:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:03
you and I have been talking about Graham Plattner since
1:07
basically the day he
1:07
SPEAKER_00: launched back last August.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: So,
1:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:10
SPEAKER_00: we've had many conversations with other people in the lead up to this,
1:15
talking about this race and talking about Governor Janet Mills
1:18
and Graham Plattner.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: But today we actually get to hear from the candidate himself.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: We've talked that there are candidates who matter because they might win.
1:27
And then there are candidates who matter because of what their
1:30
campaign actually reveals.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: And I think
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Graham Plattner might just be both of those things.
1:34
SPEAKER_03: Oh, nicely said.
1:36
SPEAKER_03: I think that's right.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:37
SPEAKER_03: He might be both.
1:38
Well,
1:39
with that,
1:40
let's take a listen to our conversation with Graham Plattner.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Graham Plattner.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Politics Between Us.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: It's great to have you here.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: A bit surreal.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: I've heard a lot about you.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: Yes, there seems to be a lot of that going around these days.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:04
SPEAKER_03: Well, welcome, Graham, as well.
2:05
SPEAKER_03: We're really happy to have you here.
2:07
Actually,
2:07
I want to take us back because you and I met almost a year ago
2:11
back in August.
2:12
SPEAKER_03: It must have been two days after you launched your campaign.
2:15
SPEAKER_03: We ended up having coffee.
2:16
I think it was Blue Jay Coffee in Lewiston,
2:19
which was early on a Friday morning.
2:22
SPEAKER_03: And you want to know my first impressions of you?
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Let's hear it.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm always intrigued.
2:28
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
2:29
First impression,
2:31
because Amy was there,
2:32
my first thought was you married really well.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I agree.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: My wife is out of my league, so somehow that worked out for me.
2:42
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
2:42
SPEAKER_03: Well, she was fantastic, and it was great to talk to her.
2:45
SPEAKER_03: The other – you made a lot of impressions.
2:47
SPEAKER_03: You spoke a lot about power.
2:48
SPEAKER_03: You spoke about why you're running, and that stuck with me.
2:51
SPEAKER_03: But it was – I think actually –
2:53
SPEAKER_03: Your actions that were most interesting to me,
2:56
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you remember,
2:56
SPEAKER_03: but the coffee shop had just opened up.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: There was a bunch of moms with their kids,
3:00
SPEAKER_03: but there was also maybe three or four homeless folks,
3:04
SPEAKER_03: unhoused people who were walking in.
3:06
And there was,
3:07
at least for me,
3:08
an energy in the room that was somewhat complicated.
3:11
SPEAKER_03: And before you and I even sat down,
3:14
SPEAKER_03: you made a point to go up to those people and you started a conversation.
3:17
SPEAKER_03: And I thought, I mean, you weren't even a politician yet.
3:20
SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure any politician would typically do that.
3:22
SPEAKER_03: And I thought, what?
3:24
I was just struck by that you were drawn to them,
3:27
that you went towards them.
3:28
SPEAKER_03: And so I'm really curious, like, where did that curiosity come from?
3:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, part of it's definitely been my time as an organizer.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm fully convinced that
3:42
SPEAKER_01: Human relationships and kind of trust,
3:45
like personal face-to-face interactions really are the best
3:49
ways to cut through all
3:51
SPEAKER_01: of the other stuff in our world and in our society.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: And I also,
3:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
3:56
SPEAKER_01: in my experience,
3:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
3:59
being in spaces with people who have had entirely different
4:03
lived experiences than
4:03
SPEAKER_01: my own,
4:05
And in being open to those people To hear from them To listen
4:09
to the struggles that
4:10
they have Listen to what brings them joy What brings them
4:13
sadness All that kind of
4:14
SPEAKER_01: stuff
4:15
That to me has always been one of the most educational things
4:20
that ever happens to
4:21
SPEAKER_01: me throughout my life.
4:22
And I've been lucky enough to have lived a life up to this
4:27
point with vastly
4:29
SPEAKER_01: different kind of directions in very intense ways sometimes.
4:34
And it has brought me to a point where everyone's lived
4:41
experience is as valid as anyone else's.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Nobody has a more special or less special life.
4:47
Everyone's life is a human life and it's as serious to them as
4:50
yours is to you.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: And because of that,
4:54
I think it's just brought me to a point where it's good to just
4:57
hear from as many
4:58
SPEAKER_01: people as possible and to just treat people like human beings,
5:02
SPEAKER_01: not like they're something different than you,
5:04
SPEAKER_01: because we're all,
5:05
SPEAKER_01: in my opinion,
5:05
SPEAKER_01: we're all very much just the same.
5:07
And I don't know,
5:09
I think that's been a big part of my personal and political
5:13
journey.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: And it's not a conscious decision, if I'm going to be honest.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm always interested to hear from people.
5:20
It's funny you say that because I was sitting with Amy and I
5:24
looked at her as you
5:25
SPEAKER_03: were walking about and she was like,
5:26
SPEAKER_03: oh yeah,
5:26
SPEAKER_03: that's just him.
5:27
SPEAKER_03: And I was like, okay, that's who you are.
5:29
SPEAKER_03: And I love hearing that, right?
5:31
SPEAKER_02: That a lot of us sometimes when we are around people who are different,
5:33
SPEAKER_02: we react with sort of pulling back or maybe even fear.
5:36
And what I'm hearing you talk about is actually when we're open
5:39
to people with
5:40
SPEAKER_03: difference,
5:41
SPEAKER_03: there's a lot of learning that can come and curiosity.
5:43
SPEAKER_03: So that was my first impression of you, Graham Plattner.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: That's not so bad Not so bad These days, it's pretty good I'll take it
5:54
SPEAKER_00: And of course,
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Allison,
5:55
SPEAKER_00: because of who we are,
5:56
she called me immediately afterwards and gave me a full debrief
5:59
of the conversation
6:00
SPEAKER_00: on the drive home.
6:02
But I think that curiosity around people is something that
6:06
really brings Allison and I together.
6:08
And it's something that we base a lot of these conversations
6:10
with politics between us around.
6:12
And one of our favorite kind of ways of getting at that is
6:14
thinking about political
6:16
SPEAKER_00: memory or memory and how it relates to politics.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of our guests have shared with us kind of
6:23
SPEAKER_00: a moment that has really cracked politics open for them.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: So do you have a first political memory yourself?
6:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I have a first political memory.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh boy.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was a really big history buff as a kid.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: I was really into the Civil War,
6:42
SPEAKER_01: especially growing up in Maine,
6:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:43
SPEAKER_01: the 20th Maine,
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Joshua Chamberlain.
6:45
So some of my early memories are of me like watching the Ken
6:49
Burns Civil War series
6:50
SPEAKER_01: or reading,
6:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:52
SPEAKER_01: reading many of these like books about Mainers in the Civil War.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: And you cannot, it's not divorced from politics.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: In the words of Klaus Witt's war is politics by other means.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: So there like to, there is a
7:06
SPEAKER_01: And especially the Civil War itself,
7:07
SPEAKER_01: which was such a politically salient event in American history.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: I remember reading,
7:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:14
as a kid hearing about the 1864 election and the fact that
7:19
there were like
7:22
Northerners Who Were Getting Behind Former Union Generals Like
7:27
McClellan Who Were
7:28
Running Against Lincoln On Essentially An Almost Pro-South
7:34
Ticket And I Just
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Remember At The Time Being Like I
7:36
SPEAKER_01: I don't get this.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: I was a kid, so I definitely didn't get it.
7:39
But it was definitely a moment where I realized that these
7:42
myths and stories that
7:43
we tell ourselves about our history and about these things that
7:46
today in our
7:47
society we see as hard and fast and uncomplicated are actually
7:51
incredibly nuanced
7:53
SPEAKER_01: and deeply political and have been the entire time.
7:56
If I was going to point at something that made me have my first
8:01
moment of political
8:02
SPEAKER_01: consciousness,
8:02
SPEAKER_01: it was probably around then.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: Well,
8:04
SPEAKER_00: I think finding the nuance in history is one thing,
8:08
SPEAKER_00: but we also like to kind of find that in people as well.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: And when we were preparing for this interview,
8:14
SPEAKER_00: I was listening to a lot of previous interviews you've done,
8:16
SPEAKER_00: and it seems like a lot of people who talk to you,
8:19
they are kind of confused or they really want to talk to you
8:23
about contradictions
8:25
SPEAKER_00: in your life or what they might call famous contradictions,
8:28
SPEAKER_00: that you're a Marine,
8:29
SPEAKER_00: but you're anti-war,
8:30
SPEAKER_00: you're an oyster farmer,
8:32
SPEAKER_00: but you kind of went to boarding school.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: and you're an angry populist.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, very, for the record, very kind of.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very kind of.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: I got thrown out of boarding.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: Very kind of.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: I went to high school in Bangor at John Babs.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: I got thrown out of boarding school quite quickly, so.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, very kind of.
8:48
But,
8:49
you know,
8:49
you're this angry populist sometimes,
8:51
but you're also emotionally vulnerable.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: And they kind of frame this as like, who is he?
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Who is Graham Plattner?
8:56
SPEAKER_00: And to me, I'm like, that's exactly who he is.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: Like, this makes perfect sense to me as someone who's 27.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like the experience of life is being intention and contradiction.
9:06
And especially when you're younger in your 20s and 30s and
9:09
really kind of coming into being.
9:11
So I just am curious how you think of that and if you kind of
9:14
maybe think of that
9:14
SPEAKER_00: as more of a political strength for yourself.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
9:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
9:17
SPEAKER_01: I think it's one,
9:19
I think it's a clear indication of how deeply stupid our
9:22
politics has gotten.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: That like there's,
9:25
SPEAKER_01: there are all these quote unquote,
9:27
SPEAKER_01: very serious political thinkers who asked me,
9:30
SPEAKER_01: who seriously asked me questions.
9:32
Like,
9:33
how could you have been against the war in Iraq,
9:35
but also joined the Marines?
9:37
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, do you not know how young people work?
9:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like I was like, I, I grew up wanting to be a soldier.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: And as I got older,
9:47
SPEAKER_01: the United States Marine Corps,
9:48
SPEAKER_01: because of its kind of,
9:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:49
SPEAKER_01: the way we see it in our society,
9:51
SPEAKER_01: the fact that it's elite,
9:52
SPEAKER_01: the fact that it's hard,
9:52
SPEAKER_01: that it's tough,
9:53
SPEAKER_01: that it's like,
9:54
SPEAKER_01: that's the place that I was attracted to.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: And that,
9:57
SPEAKER_01: in some ways,
9:57
that doesn't contradict the fact that I thought the American
9:59
government was making
10:00
SPEAKER_01: bad decisions.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Like wanting to serve your country...
10:04
SPEAKER_01: Wanting to,
10:05
SPEAKER_01: like,
10:06
SPEAKER_01: go to a place of intense challenge and to go,
10:10
SPEAKER_01: as I mentioned,
10:10
SPEAKER_01: in some ways have adventures,
10:12
SPEAKER_01: is,
10:13
SPEAKER_01: for me,
10:13
SPEAKER_01: was never disconnected from my ability to criticize the government.
10:18
I mean,
10:18
like,
10:19
there's that old,
10:19
there's an old saying,
10:20
you know,
10:20
like,
10:20
you can...
10:21
SPEAKER_01: You can love your country, but hate your government.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: Everybody loves saying that,
10:24
SPEAKER_01: but somehow I come along and I'm like,
10:26
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
10:26
SPEAKER_01: I thought the war in Iraq was done,
10:27
SPEAKER_01: but I still want to serve my country.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: People are like, I don't get it.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: It's so confusing.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, it's not, I don't know.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: To me, these things have never been contradictions.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: It's just that the human experience is complicated and nuanced.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: But we have a political world now in which
10:44
No One Can Think About Things In Like Any Deeper Fashion It's
10:48
Like It's Purely
10:49
Aesthetic Which I Actually Think Is Probably One Of The
10:51
Problems With Our Political
10:52
System At The Moment But Just An Example Somebody In One Of
10:56
These Interviews Where
10:57
Somebody Was Like Really Interested In My Contradictions
11:00
They're Like You Were The
11:01
Captain Of The Wrestling Team But You Also Were In Musicals
11:06
Explain That I'm Like
11:08
SPEAKER_01: What
11:10
What kind of psycho thinks that you can't be an athlete but
11:13
also be interested in theater?
11:16
SPEAKER_01: Those things aren't remotely contradictory,
11:18
SPEAKER_01: but in these supposedly very serious political journalist minds,
11:23
SPEAKER_01: these things just can't be explained.
11:25
And I think it's more of an indictment of their profession than
11:28
it is anything else.
11:30
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's really interesting.
11:30
I mean,
11:30
one thing I love hearing you just back to the military issue
11:33
and patriotism.
11:34
I mean,
11:34
when I was working with the ACLU,
11:35
it was always so complicated to me because I feel like
11:38
SPEAKER_02: built into our democracy is the idea of protesting your government.
11:41
I mean,
11:41
that is supposed to be absolutely integral to who we are as a
11:44
country.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: And somehow that has become problematic,
11:47
SPEAKER_02: that we can't hold that tension,
11:49
SPEAKER_02: that you can love something and challenge it at the same time.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know if anyone's got kids.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: They know that that actually can be true.
11:55
SPEAKER_02: You can love deeply and want to throttle someone.
11:57
One of the reasons I joined the Marine Corps,
11:59
I mean,
11:59
like,
11:59
you know,
12:00
I...
12:00
SPEAKER_01: protested the war in Iraq aggressively.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: I got thrown out of a George W.
12:05
Bush rally in Bangor because I snuck in a sign and interrupted
12:08
his speech.
12:09
I felt like I did absolutely everything in my power as an
12:13
American with my First
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Amendment rights to stop the war.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: And then the war came anyways.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: And at that point, because I had exercised my rights, because I had like
12:24
SPEAKER_01: used what this nation had given me as an actual freedom.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: It was also up to me to go like, do my bit and serve the country.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Like I felt, I kind of felt like there was a responsibility there.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: And now,
12:36
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:37
SPEAKER_01: today,
12:38
SPEAKER_01: looking back on all of it,
12:39
SPEAKER_01: of course,
12:40
SPEAKER_01: I firmly believe that like this nation abuses patriotism.
12:44
This nation abuses the willingness of young people to sign up
12:47
and sacrifice and
12:49
SPEAKER_01: serve for the country.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: The political class of this country
12:53
SPEAKER_01: uses all of that as a tool to enrich itself,
12:56
SPEAKER_01: to protect itself politically,
12:58
SPEAKER_01: to start wars that are good for its donors.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: That is all true.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: At a younger age,
13:05
SPEAKER_01: I was not yet that cynical about the larger political system,
13:09
SPEAKER_01: and I still felt like,
13:10
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
13:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm supposed to sign up and do my part.
13:13
But to this day,
13:15
none of it remains contradictory or complicated in my mind.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And every time people ask me about, like, how do you explain it?
13:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't know.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: In my head, it always made sense.
13:29
SPEAKER_03: Hi everyone, it's Allison.
13:31
Politics Between Us grew out of something that Luca and I have
13:33
believed for a long time.
13:35
SPEAKER_03: The idea that politics is not separate from the rest of our lives.
13:38
SPEAKER_03: It shapes relationships, identity, and what it means to live well.
13:42
We want to have different kinds of political conversations and
13:44
we hope you'll join us.
13:46
Subscribe for free at politicsbetweenus.substack.com linked in
13:49
the show notes.
13:50
SPEAKER_03: And if you want to help us grow, send it to a few friends.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: All right, back to the show.
14:01
So I want to pick up on something you just said that Luke and I
14:04
talk a lot about.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: Some of it's generational, some of it's just human.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: But you said, you know, you weren't as cynical as you are now.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: But I actually,
14:11
one of the things that I find fascinating about you as a human
14:14
and even more as a
14:15
SPEAKER_02: political candidate is that you seem to,
14:17
SPEAKER_02: you also seem very hopeful to me.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: You also, you seem, you can channel anger, but you have hope.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: You can channel tenderness, but you can channel strength.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: And I'm really interested.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
14:27
How much are you aware of the tensions and how your identity
14:30
shows different
14:31
SPEAKER_02: versions of masculinity?
14:32
SPEAKER_02: Is that like something you're intentionally trying to model for us?
14:36
If I'm going to be entirely upfront,
14:37
I don't do a lot of things intentionally in all of this.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: What I mean is I'm not trying to get myself elected so I can be elected.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm running on a politics and a worldview that I think is my own.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: And I also think is necessary for this time in American history.
14:59
It's not a,
15:00
I'm not like,
15:01
I'm not sitting around being like,
15:02
Ooh,
15:02
how do I craft the light?
15:03
SPEAKER_01: How do I talk about being gentle and also being angry?
15:06
SPEAKER_01: It's not a thing that I talk about.
15:09
I would say my anger comes from the fact that I really do care
15:17
immensely about people.
15:19
And I think that we live in a political and economic system
15:23
that doesn't seem to
15:23
SPEAKER_01: care about people.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: It cares about profits.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: It cares about power, personal power.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: It cares about maintaining structures that exploit people.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: And that makes me angry.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: But it makes me angry because I think that's nonsense.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't think we have to have a world that's built like that.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: In fact,
15:41
my experience with people in the real world is that human
15:45
beings aren't actually
15:46
SPEAKER_01: like that.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: Most people I know in my community are really good folks.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: They care about their neighbors.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: They care about each other.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: They want a world where they're like more connected.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: Everybody laments the fact that we've lost community.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: We've lost connection.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: So that's what drives,
16:02
SPEAKER_01: if I come across as angry,
16:03
SPEAKER_01: it's because I just,
16:05
SPEAKER_01: I love people a lot and I want us to have a more human focused society.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: And instead of like a profit focused one or a power focused one.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: It's the same with my cynicism.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: I am deeply cynical about the state of American politics,
16:19
but it's a cynicism that comes from the fact that it means that
16:22
we're not living up
16:23
SPEAKER_01: to,
16:24
SPEAKER_01: one,
16:24
SPEAKER_01: what this nation set out to do,
16:26
the kind of revolutionary promise of the beginning of this
16:29
country that all men are
16:30
SPEAKER_01: created equal,
16:31
SPEAKER_01: that we're trying to give people the ability to pursue life,
16:35
SPEAKER_01: liberty,
16:35
SPEAKER_01: and the pursuit of happiness.
16:37
That there are all these high-minded philosophical ideals that
16:42
we've never actually
16:43
SPEAKER_01: accomplished.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: We continue this long,
16:46
slow march towards really fulfilling the early promises that
16:52
this country set out
16:53
SPEAKER_01: to do.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: And I just feel like throughout that whole time,
16:55
SPEAKER_01: there's been this tension between what we claim to be,
16:59
SPEAKER_01: what we are setting out to be,
17:00
SPEAKER_01: and what we really are.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: And there has always been that tension.
17:04
And we have always had people and structures on both sides of
17:07
that tension trying
17:08
SPEAKER_01: to push us in either direction.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: And to me, that's what gives me a lot of hope.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: is that when you look at American history,
17:17
SPEAKER_01: for every founding father,
17:21
SPEAKER_01: for every Thomas Jefferson who said,
17:23
SPEAKER_01: all men are created equal while owning slaves,
17:26
SPEAKER_01: we also had people like Thomas Paine who were writing that,
17:29
SPEAKER_01: no,
17:30
SPEAKER_01: that's a serious statement and it should be all people and slavery is an
17:34
abomination and we should have a society that is built to
17:38
uplift everyone in it,
17:39
SPEAKER_01: not just enrich a few and give power to a few.
17:43
and that started then and you watch it,
17:46
every slave owner we had a Frederick Douglass.
17:49
Every person who didn't want women to vote,
17:52
we had the entire women's suffrage movement.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: You know,
17:55
SPEAKER_01: like there's a,
17:56
SPEAKER_01: for every Gilded Age robber baron,
18:00
SPEAKER_01: you had people joining unions and fighting back.
18:03
Like it's been a tension the entire time and the reason I have
18:06
a lot of hope is I
18:08
just feel like we're still in that exact same struggle that we
18:11
started off with,
18:12
SPEAKER_01: but
18:14
SPEAKER_01: Every time working people,
18:15
SPEAKER_01: regular people,
18:16
SPEAKER_01: really come together and organize and build power,
18:19
SPEAKER_01: that's when we move the ball forward.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we're in a moment where we can do that again.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: We have an opening now for that exact same kind of politics.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: You've mentioned a few times here kind of like this cynicism.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: And in this kind of historical story you're telling,
18:35
there are people who are really trying to push us forward and
18:38
there are people
18:38
SPEAKER_00: really trying to hold us back.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: But as a younger person, I see a
18:44
SPEAKER_00: And what it kind of comes out to be is more like apathy.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of my peers and myself,
18:54
SPEAKER_00: we might hold bigger ideals about labor or more revolutionary ideas,
18:59
SPEAKER_00: and then we end up ordering from Amazon anyways.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: And then there's this gap between your ideals and what ends up happening,
19:05
SPEAKER_00: and it's a little bit of a trap.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
19:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
19:08
SPEAKER_01: one,
19:08
SPEAKER_01: I think it's important to,
19:09
SPEAKER_01: like,
19:10
SPEAKER_01: the system wants you to feel guilty for having to partake in it.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: And I firmly believe this.
19:16
There is a trick here in which we build systems and structures
19:21
that become
19:22
SPEAKER_01: necessary for existing within a society.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: And then the moment you have to partake in them,
19:27
SPEAKER_01: people who want to protect that system say,
19:29
SPEAKER_01: oh,
19:29
SPEAKER_01: look,
19:30
SPEAKER_01: you used it.
19:31
Therefore,
19:32
you have no right to criticize it,
19:34
which is,
19:34
of course,
19:35
absolute nonsense.
19:38
Existing in society as it is structured right now is not a
19:43
thing that you should
19:43
SPEAKER_01: feel bad about.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: It's a necessity for life at this point.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Unless you want to go be a hermit in the woods,
19:52
SPEAKER_01: but nobody actually wants to do that because being lonely is miserable.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: And there isn't that there is no alternative.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: It's that we're just trying to be convinced that there is nothing to do
20:04
SPEAKER_01: And they want us to be apathetic,
20:05
SPEAKER_01: because if we're apathetic,
20:06
SPEAKER_01: we don't organize,
20:07
SPEAKER_01: we don't fight back,
20:08
SPEAKER_01: and they continue to win.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: And these structures of power continue to exist.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: But history shows us that that's simply not true at all.
20:17
SPEAKER_02: It also,
20:18
SPEAKER_02: for me,
20:18
SPEAKER_02: brings up a tension,
20:19
SPEAKER_02: I think,
20:20
SPEAKER_02: is that for those of us,
20:21
SPEAKER_02: right,
20:21
SPEAKER_02: so I'm a civil rights lawyer,
20:22
SPEAKER_02: I worked in a system trying to reform a system.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: It really,
20:27
SPEAKER_02: it's tricky here,
20:27
SPEAKER_02: because how,
20:28
SPEAKER_02: you know,
20:29
SPEAKER_02: in many ways,
20:29
SPEAKER_02: I hear your campaign talking about,
20:31
SPEAKER_02: sometimes you talk about a revolution,
20:32
SPEAKER_02: sometimes you're talking about we need to just break down the system and
20:36
SPEAKER_02: We're in this bind where we can't abandon.
20:39
SPEAKER_02: We have to continue to work.
20:40
We have to try to make changes in a system while trying to
20:42
imagine a new system.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: And that is very complicated.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: And I want to say,
20:48
let me just play my role as the hierarchy lover
20:51
institutionalist that I sometimes
20:53
SPEAKER_03: do between Luca and I.
20:55
SPEAKER_03: Hierarchy lover.
20:56
SPEAKER_03: Okay, I really don't want that to be my tagline, but yes.
20:59
SPEAKER_03: But you know, I'm comfortable with systems, right?
21:01
SPEAKER_03: I'm trained that way.
21:02
SPEAKER_03: I'm trained with the law.
21:04
And so what do you say to people who sometimes hear this talk
21:07
of revolution,
21:08
SPEAKER_03: this talk of tearing things down?
21:09
SPEAKER_03: Like, what system are we actually talking about?
21:13
Well I mean one is the current state of our political system
21:16
itself and which I
21:18
will be very upfront I do not think we can get money out of
21:24
politics through reform
21:26
alone and the reason I'm going to say this is that our
21:30
structures as they've been
21:31
SPEAKER_01: set up are what brought money into politics the Supreme Court
21:36
SPEAKER_01: the way that we have allowed it to essentially accrue undemocratic power,
21:40
SPEAKER_01: certainly over the last 50 years,
21:42
SPEAKER_01: is the reason Citizens United exists.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: Structurally, we have allowed it to become subsumed entirely by money.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: And I do not think that without some kind of
21:57
SPEAKER_01: without a form of political revolution,
22:01
SPEAKER_01: which I very much see as creating mass movement,
22:05
SPEAKER_01: looking at things like civil disobedience,
22:08
SPEAKER_01: looking at things like strikes,
22:10
looking at things like the ability of withholding labor or
22:12
withholding consumption,
22:14
and the ability really to shut things down by getting mass
22:18
amounts of people out
22:20
SPEAKER_01: into the streets.
22:21
I'm not convinced that we're going to be able to get money out
22:24
of politics without
22:25
SPEAKER_01: that kind of thing.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: Because the structures as we have them now are exactly what got us here.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: There was no,
22:33
and I don't think at this point there is no real effective
22:36
method for us to get
22:37
money out of this political system without some form of
22:41
political revolutions.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: Now,
22:54
SPEAKER_01: when I talk about political revolution,
22:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't mean that we,
22:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
22:58
SPEAKER_01: we're not talking about violence.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: We're not talking about civil war.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: We're talking about things like the labor movement of the early 1900s,
23:07
SPEAKER_01: late 1800s,
23:08
SPEAKER_01: early 1900s,
23:09
SPEAKER_01: the civil rights movement,
23:10
SPEAKER_01: the anti-war movement,
23:11
SPEAKER_01: the women's suffrage movement.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's important to remember, people don't like to talk about this.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: A lot of windows got broken in the women's suffrage movement.
23:23
Women didn't just show up one day and write a nice postcard to
23:26
a congressman and
23:27
SPEAKER_01: say,
23:27
SPEAKER_01: hey,
23:27
SPEAKER_01: it would be nicer if you let us vote.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: That's not what happened.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: The women's suffrage movement was very much about direct action.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: It was about civil disobedience.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: And that was a core part of it.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: It's the only reason why people eventually...
23:43
SPEAKER_01: acquiesced.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: Those in power did it not out of the goodness of their hearts,
23:47
SPEAKER_01: but because they were imposed upon in some ways.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: And if we're not realistic about American history,
23:54
SPEAKER_01: we're not going to be able to change the future here.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, you talked earlier about memory and politics.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
24:01
this is something that I think is so key for us as Americans to
24:05
understand is that
24:08
SPEAKER_01: the best things we get
24:10
SPEAKER_01: Whether it's ending slavery,
24:12
SPEAKER_01: whether it's getting women to vote,
24:14
whether it's a 40-hour work week and getting rid of a
24:17
completely exploitive
24:19
SPEAKER_01: capitalist system that is just fully unregulated.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: Every single time we were able to do that,
24:26
SPEAKER_01: it did not come purely from the institutions and the structures of power.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: People had to build power outside of it.
24:35
And then they had to work with some on the inside strategically
24:39
to make those
24:39
SPEAKER_01: shifts and changes.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: And when I talk about revolution, that's what I mean.
24:44
And honestly,
24:45
I don't want to be like,
24:46
I didn't come up with this,
24:47
by the way.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: None of this is original.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: Bernie Sanders was talking about this in 2016.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: Jesse Jackson was talking about this in the 1980s.
24:55
Martin Luther King was talking about this in the 1960s before
24:58
he was murdered.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: It is a through line.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't have a single original thought.
25:06
I read history books and I listen to speeches and I look at how
25:09
American political
25:10
SPEAKER_01: history has actually happened.
25:12
And I have come very much to the conclusion that working within
25:15
the system itself
25:17
SPEAKER_01: as a reformer is not enough.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: It's never just come from within the institutions.
25:22
It's always come from a combination of using the institutions
25:26
combined with outside power.
25:28
And that's what I mean when I talk about the need for a
25:32
political revolution.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's pivot now.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: Graham,
25:35
I want to talk to you a little bit about why I was so drawn to
25:39
your campaign back
25:40
SPEAKER_00: in the fall.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: Allison and I,
25:42
we write this Substack where we kind of exchange ideas and play
25:46
around with things.
25:47
And one of the ideas I was playing around with is this old
25:51
political saying,
25:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:53
the politician the voters go for is the person who you'd rather
25:56
get a beer with.
25:58
But I'm starting to think that's changing now in politics and
26:00
it's less about the
26:02
person who you'd get a beer with and more about the politician
26:04
who has your back.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: You know,
26:06
I think our political system feels so broken and a lot of our
26:11
communities feel so
26:13
SPEAKER_00: falling apart or failing that people want the person
26:16
SPEAKER_00: who has their back when they're in trouble.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: So if you break your leg,
26:20
SPEAKER_00: it's the person who will come plow out your driveway or shovel you out.
26:23
And I guess that's why I'm drawn to the community building
26:27
aspect of your campaign
26:28
SPEAKER_00: and your movement.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: Does that resonate?
26:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Although to be fair, they're not mutually exclusive.
26:33
I would happily drink light beers with anybody and also help
26:37
people clear their
26:39
SPEAKER_01: driveway in the wintertime.
26:40
SPEAKER_03: Hopefully not at the same time.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: With shovels, shovels, shovels or a snowblower.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Yes, not driving a truck.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I like that.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: I think you're totally right.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think it comes down to this.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: People's lives got harder.
27:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:02
Like down here in the real world,
27:04
over decades now,
27:05
life has gotten harder.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: People are working harder for longer.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: They're getting less.
27:10
They're seeing these kind of systems and support networks that
27:16
used to exist kind of disappear.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: And they're seeing access to healthcare go away.
27:23
They're seeing the ability for them or their children to buy
27:25
homes begin to disappear.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: And you get this feeling
27:32
Of isolation And you get this You begin to get this feeling of
27:36
kind of hopelessness
27:37
The only thing that's going to cut through that Is your
27:40
neighbor showing up to help
27:41
SPEAKER_01: you Or vice versa Or you going to help your neighbor And
27:45
SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
27:46
SPEAKER_01: this is what I am,
27:47
SPEAKER_01: like I mentioned at the top here,
27:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm just utterly convinced that that personal human-to-human contact,
27:54
SPEAKER_01: that's it.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: That's the core of all of this.
27:57
And this feeling as though everything is leaving you behind and
28:02
that you have to
28:03
SPEAKER_01: fend for yourself as things get more difficult,
28:06
SPEAKER_01: the only antidote to that is community.
28:10
The only antidote to that is people showing up for each other
28:14
which I really think
28:15
is why any serious political movement right now and honestly
28:19
any serious political
28:19
movement in history needs to be focused relentlessly on showing
28:24
up for people and
28:25
for neighbors and rebuilding trust and community but also real
28:30
structures to be
28:31
able to provide for each other as the larger system we live in
28:35
continues to fail
28:36
SPEAKER_01: us.
28:37
SPEAKER_02: So we interviewed Betsy Sweet last week.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: As you know, Betsy, right?
28:41
SPEAKER_02: A longtime Maine activist and candidate.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: An inspiration for me.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: For many of us, right?
28:48
SPEAKER_02: And she talked about something.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: She said, perfect vulnerability is perfect protection.
28:53
And I was thinking about when I met Amy at the coffee shop that
28:57
first time and you
28:58
SPEAKER_02: were off chatting with people.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: I've been around politicians for a long time and I said to her,
29:03
SPEAKER_02: maybe inappropriately,
29:04
SPEAKER_02: but I said,
29:04
how are you going to protect yourself and your relationship and
29:08
your life?
29:09
SPEAKER_03: And she said, well, we believe in therapy.
29:11
SPEAKER_03: And I looked at her and I'm like, I love her.
29:13
SPEAKER_03: And then I thought, I hope someone fucking tells her not to say that.
29:17
SPEAKER_03: And then you all have broken every political playbook.
29:20
SPEAKER_03: You say it all the time.
29:21
SPEAKER_03: And then you talked,
29:22
SPEAKER_03: I think,
29:22
SPEAKER_03: I don't know which one of you said in the People Magazine article,
29:25
SPEAKER_03: but for those of you who feel lonely,
29:28
SPEAKER_03: no,
29:28
SPEAKER_03: you're not alone.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: That was Amy.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't get credit for that.
29:33
And that idea,
29:34
right,
29:34
that it's beyond just showing up to plow someone's driveway.
29:38
It's saying like,
29:38
this is me and I want you to see me and I want to see you.
29:43
Do you think that is also why people,
29:45
I mean,
29:45
you are a political phenomenon.
29:47
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know if you expected this, but this is unbelievable.
29:49
Do you think some of that open heartedness is actually what
29:54
people are drawn to
29:55
SPEAKER_03: beyond the power analysis?
29:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: I think so, yeah.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: Throughout this whole experience,
30:00
SPEAKER_01: there have been some pretty,
30:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
30:02
shocking revelations to me as a regular person who is now
30:05
engaging in this huge
30:06
SPEAKER_01: political project and getting as much traction as we are.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: The single most shocking thing,
30:14
SPEAKER_01: hands down,
30:15
SPEAKER_01: above the money in politics,
30:17
SPEAKER_01: above the influence of special interest groups,
30:19
SPEAKER_01: above all of that,
30:20
SPEAKER_01: the single most shocking thing is how amazed people are at like
30:27
SPEAKER_01: They claim,
30:28
SPEAKER_01: like,
30:28
SPEAKER_01: they're like,
30:28
SPEAKER_01: oh,
30:28
SPEAKER_01: you have this ability to be authentic And I'm like,
30:31
SPEAKER_01: what are you talking about?
30:33
SPEAKER_01: I just,
30:33
SPEAKER_01: like,
30:34
SPEAKER_01: it's not an ability It's just being It's just existing as who I am Like,
30:39
SPEAKER_01: there's no crafting to it Like,
30:42
when people ask me a question I give them my answer We don't
30:45
focus group test
30:46
SPEAKER_01: messaging And then,
30:47
SPEAKER_01: like,
30:48
SPEAKER_01: memorize things I just answer it with my opinions I'm not And,
30:52
SPEAKER_01: like,
30:52
what's been The most shocking thing is realizing This actually
30:56
isn't that hard
30:58
SPEAKER_01: if you just believe in stuff and are a regular person.
31:01
It's just that we've had a political system that for decades
31:04
now has created this
31:06
narrative that that's an impossibility and anybody that does
31:10
that will just get
31:10
SPEAKER_01: like wiped out.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: And then we come along and we just do it and everybody's just like,
31:15
SPEAKER_01: actually,
31:15
SPEAKER_01: no,
31:15
SPEAKER_01: that's exactly what we wanted to see.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: We just want to see regular people.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
31:20
it's been fascinating to me to watch all these supposed
31:24
political experts,
31:25
SPEAKER_01: all these political journalists who are like the people that know best,
31:29
just be baffled by this entire experience and have absolutely
31:33
no answers because
31:35
SPEAKER_01: they've just come out of this other thing that they themselves built.
31:41
And they're just utterly shocked when all the lessons that they
31:44
think are hard and
31:46
SPEAKER_01: fast turned out to just be nothing.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: And that to me has just been utterly amazing.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's why it's worked.
31:51
Because people do want people they recognize from the real
31:54
world who are going to be flawed.
31:56
who are going to have lived lives,
31:58
who are going to have changed over time.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: That's just a normal thing for human beings to go through.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: And it's weird because it's gone from being a political liability to,
32:06
SPEAKER_01: I think in our case,
32:08
SPEAKER_01: being very much a political virtue.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: It's been helpful.
32:11
That idea of changing in public is something that really
32:15
resonates for me and as
32:17
someone who's growing up in a generation where their entire
32:19
life will have been
32:20
lived online and captured by the internet and their friends in
32:25
group chats and
32:25
SPEAKER_00: whatever.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious to hear from you,
32:28
SPEAKER_00: Graham,
32:28
about what you make of forgiveness and growth and the ability
32:34
to evolve for people
32:35
SPEAKER_00: who will have lived their entire life online.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm 41, so I've spent much of my life on the internet.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: I remember dial-up days,
32:45
SPEAKER_01: but since my earliest kind of mature memories,
32:49
SPEAKER_01: the internet has been a part of my existence.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: And that's the case for everybody my generation and below.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Part of me actually really hopes that when we beat Collins in November,
32:59
we can just put to bed relitigating something somebody said on
33:04
the internet a
33:04
SPEAKER_01: decade before.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Because if we want regular people,
33:08
we're going to have to get people who live normal lives and
33:10
didn't want to set out
33:11
SPEAKER_01: to be politicians,
33:13
SPEAKER_01: which I think is an important thing for an actual democratic system.
33:16
But I also think it's important for us to be able to show that
33:19
you can go through
33:20
SPEAKER_01: your life in this kind of weirdly quasi-public fashion now,
33:25
and other people as a society are willing to forgive you for
33:31
not having been a
33:32
SPEAKER_01: fully perfect person the entire time.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: I think that's really important.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: Now at the same time, of course there are limits.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: You know,
33:39
if somebody comes along and it's 15 straight years of them
33:43
being a racist on the
33:44
SPEAKER_01: internet,
33:45
SPEAKER_01: and then the day that they run for office,
33:46
SPEAKER_01: they're like,
33:46
SPEAKER_01: I am no longer a racist as of last week.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably shouldn't trust that person.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: But if it's like somebody uses language at an earlier part in life,
33:56
SPEAKER_01: somebody says,
33:57
SPEAKER_01: frankly,
33:57
SPEAKER_01: like stuff that I did,
33:59
SPEAKER_01: things that were deeply hurtful or offensive at an earlier part in life,
34:03
SPEAKER_01: but it's clearly not part of a longer,
34:06
SPEAKER_01: bigger pattern of existence,
34:08
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
34:08
SPEAKER_01: we should probably just get around to the fact that
34:11
SPEAKER_01: That's what happens in the age of the internet.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: And if we ever want regular people in places of political power,
34:17
SPEAKER_01: if we re-litigate everybody's internet posts,
34:20
SPEAKER_01: that's all politics will ever be for the foreseeable future.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: Which is not politics, by the way.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: That's just like weird discussions around stuff people said.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: It's not policy.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we even have politicians.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: Very few of them laughed.
34:37
SPEAKER_02: Well, and I don't want to minimize though, right?
34:39
SPEAKER_02: Like there's real consequences to what we say and do in our life.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: And I think it is to your point,
34:44
SPEAKER_02: it is about understanding them in context of where someone is today.
34:48
SPEAKER_02: And it's also not to minimize the impact that it has had.
34:51
And,
34:51
you know,
34:51
I think that everyone needs to own their own healing and own
34:54
their own impact.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's an important part of
34:57
for all of us to be doing and you know for me honestly I think
35:00
healing is a journey
35:01
that we never finish you know it's something that we are always
35:04
doing and the idea
35:06
that you make a mistake in your 20s and then you got that shit
35:09
buttoned up by your
35:10
30s just isn't you know I'm in my 50s you know I don't want to
35:14
go through them but
35:14
there's certainly like plenty of mistakes that I'm making and I
35:16
look and every with
35:18
every year I gain more understanding more wisdom don't laugh
35:21
Luca I really am much
35:22
better at owning my mistakes you've known me 10 years I really
35:25
am I have grown
35:26
SPEAKER_03: right Luca
35:28
No,
35:28
I was just,
35:28
I want to circle back to the mistakes you were making in your
35:31
20s.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: But okay, no, no, no, we're not going there.
35:33
SPEAKER_03: Not today.
35:34
But let's just talk about gender because that's something that
35:37
does come up as,
35:38
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
35:38
SPEAKER_03: I've been in politics adjacent for 25 years.
35:42
SPEAKER_03: I've been in the advocacy world.
35:43
I've been up in the state house in Augusta,
35:45
our legislature here in Maine.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: And there are things
35:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: on many of the platforms you're running on now.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: And people called her a witch, right?
36:08
SPEAKER_02: There is a difference in how women are perceived,
36:12
SPEAKER_02: not just women,
36:12
SPEAKER_02: people of color,
36:13
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
36:14
SPEAKER_02: sort of non-majority identities.
36:16
They have to live,
36:17
you think about looking back at President Obama,
36:18
he could not get angry.
36:20
SPEAKER_03: And so there's some unfairness there.
36:22
SPEAKER_03: As a woman, I have to say, like, it's kind of unfair.
36:25
SPEAKER_03: It's kind of frustrating.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, and what do we do with that?
36:29
SPEAKER_02: How do we hold that tension?
36:32
There is this ironic thing where I'm a cisgendered white male
36:37
running for political
36:37
office while simultaneously believing we need less cisgendered
36:41
white males in
36:42
SPEAKER_01: political office.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: I recognize that I am privileged in many ways.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: I am a relatively healthy white man in America.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: that comes across in a very kind of masculine way.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: And I have like, I'm strong.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: I have a deep voice.
37:01
All of my hobbies are like weirdly manly things because I don't
37:05
know,
37:05
that's kind of happened.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
37:07
SPEAKER_01: like in this,
37:07
SPEAKER_01: like use Betsy Sweet as,
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Betsy literally ran on pretty much everything I talk about.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: Everything.
37:14
I could look through Betsy's platform from when she ran for
37:17
government,
37:17
when she ran for Senate.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: And it's far be it for me to find much daylight between us.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
37:24
SPEAKER_01: they went after her,
37:25
SPEAKER_01: called her a witch,
37:26
SPEAKER_01: said she was all this stuff because that's what this society does.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: And then I get to do it and people are like, this sounds reasonable.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: That's insane to me.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: But it is also a reality.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: That is kind of why it's like,
37:38
SPEAKER_01: I recognize my privilege,
37:39
but I also feel like it's a responsibility to use it in some
37:42
way to try to make
37:43
SPEAKER_01: sure that we have this conversation.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: Make sure that we're not pushing it away.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: And to talk about things like patriarchy and white supremacy.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: Because
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Honestly,
37:52
there are a lot of people who look like me who run for office
37:55
who don't talk about
37:56
SPEAKER_01: those things.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: They run for office on the concept that those things don't exist at all,
38:00
SPEAKER_01: which is absolute nonsense.
38:02
And so I think being able to legitimize the conversation around
38:06
these sort of
38:07
SPEAKER_01: structural inequalities that we need to be having,
38:10
SPEAKER_01: it's something I feel like a responsibility to.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: But there's no question about it.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: Look at Governor Mills.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: First woman attorney general.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: First woman governor.
38:20
huge leaps forward in politics and serves the state of Maine in
38:26
a really effective manner.
38:28
And that is something that needs to be uplifted and respected
38:33
and honored.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: And at the exact same time,
38:35
SPEAKER_01: the governor and I had some pretty significant policy differences,
38:38
SPEAKER_01: which is one of the reasons why I ran,
38:41
because we disagreed on things like tribal rights and we
38:43
disagreed on things like
38:44
SPEAKER_01: organized labor,
38:45
SPEAKER_01: which are pretty big for me.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: And so it's a
38:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
38:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
38:50
SPEAKER_01: I think we just,
38:50
SPEAKER_01: we need to be very,
38:51
very open and honest in the discussion about it and recognize
38:55
that these privileges
38:56
SPEAKER_01: do exist,
38:57
SPEAKER_01: these inequalities do still exist,
38:59
SPEAKER_01: and we need to be working towards breaking them.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: And in many ways,
39:04
like I just get to do that because of what I look like and
39:06
sound like in my
39:07
SPEAKER_01: background,
39:08
which is kind of lame because it means I don't have to work
39:10
very hard at it,
39:11
SPEAKER_01: but it exists and it's an existing thing in our society.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: I want to close by thinking about one question with you.
39:17
So,
39:17
Graham,
39:18
last night I was a bit nervous to talk to you and I called my
39:20
mom.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: I was just having her just, you know, whatever.
39:25
I called my mom and I was just chatting to her about the
39:29
interview and whatnot.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: and I asked her what she would ask you.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: And she was like, well, Luca, you are so nervous now.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: Think back to August.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: You would not have been this nervous to talk to Graham Plattner.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: And it got me thinking about power and how as you get
39:46
Closer and closer to the center of power,
39:48
people will just continue to treat you differently.
39:51
I'm more nervous now than I would have been nine months ago to
39:54
talk to you.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's nothing about you, that's just about your position.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: So how are you gonna stay real and grounded?
40:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's gonna get weirder.
40:04
SPEAKER_01: By the way, this is the most weird, surreal experience of my life.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: One is that Amy and I still live in Sullivan.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: And we will continue to still live in Sullivan.
40:14
Even when I go down to Washington,
40:15
I'm going to come home and spend time in my hometown.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: It's a town of a thousand people.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: People have known me since I was a kid.
40:22
I'm still going to go get coffee at the local general store
40:25
where everybody's known
40:26
SPEAKER_01: me since long before this nonsense happened.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: And then also I still have all my old friends.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: All the people that have been important and been part of my life,
40:36
SPEAKER_01: they're still the most important people in my life.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: I've met new people.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: I've created new friendships.
40:41
I've certainly found people that I'm working with
40:44
professionally who I find to be
40:45
SPEAKER_01: utterly fantastic,
40:46
who I never would have met or never would have built a
40:49
relationship before this.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: But I've also just got my buddies,
40:52
SPEAKER_01: guys I served in the Marine Corps with,
40:54
SPEAKER_01: people I know from organizing in Eastern Maine,
40:57
SPEAKER_01: people I know just from working on the ocean,
40:59
SPEAKER_01: from the aquaculture world,
41:00
SPEAKER_01: from the fishing world.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: And that's not going away because that's where I come from.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: That's who I am.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to go to Washington, D.C. to become part of it.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: I lived in D.C.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: I bartended down there.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: I've got no interest.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: I saw behind the curtain.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: It's not interesting.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: And so I have no interest in like being part of that world.
41:21
I'm going down there because that's where the power is to do
41:25
the changes that I
41:26
SPEAKER_01: think we as a movement and as people need to help bring about.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: That's why.
41:31
And then at its core,
41:32
and this is going to sound a little flippant,
41:33
but I believe,
41:34
man.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: I believe in my politics.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm not doing this because I want to do it.
41:39
I'm doing it because an opportunity arose for me to do
41:42
something about the politics
41:43
that I and a lot of the people I know and love think we need to
41:46
be having more of
41:47
SPEAKER_01: right now.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: I believe in that politics.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: And when I look at somebody like Bernie Sanders, Bernie believes.
41:54
And Bernie has been able to stay himself for a long time,
41:58
even within that weird milieu.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: He's the kind of person I look up to.
42:02
And he goes back to Vermont as often as he possibly can because
42:07
I think that's the
42:07
SPEAKER_01: way that you do it.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: You just stay in the regular world.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: Stay connected to regular people.
42:12
SPEAKER_03: Well, we love that answer.
42:13
SPEAKER_03: We love the regular world.
42:15
SPEAKER_03: We live in it all the time.
42:16
SPEAKER_03: And we believe,
42:17
SPEAKER_03: Luke and I really believe,
42:18
SPEAKER_02: that being engaged in politics is part of living a purposeful life.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: And so we're really grateful for you that you came and joined us.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Graham.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: No, thank you.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: And this is a real pleasure.
42:38
SPEAKER_03: Thank you all for being part of Season 1 of Politics Between Us.
42:41
SPEAKER_03: Our goal was to follow the main U.S.
42:43
SPEAKER_03: Senate race through the primary,
42:44
SPEAKER_03: which is wrapping up on June 9th.
42:46
SPEAKER_03: And we did it!
42:47
SPEAKER_03: But we are already scheming about Season 2.
42:50
SPEAKER_03: In the meantime,
42:50
SPEAKER_03: follow along on our Substack for our writing,
42:53
SPEAKER_03: updates,
42:53
SPEAKER_03: and whatever else could come next from Politics Between Us.
42:57
SPEAKER_03: And one last point, our standard disclaimer.
43:00
SPEAKER_03: I'm on faculty at Colby College and Luca works there as well.
43:04
SPEAKER_03: But the views expressed in this podcast are entirely our own.
43:08
SPEAKER_03: Thanks everyone for a great season.