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Transcript

Trump Can't Handle The Truth · Politix

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: That would be like the trial of the century.
• 0:02
  Every ambitious lawyer in the Navy JAG Corps would be like,
• 0:06
  please give me this case.
• 0:08
  Like,
• 0:08
  I'm going to become the greatest star since,
• 0:12
  you know,
• 0:12
  Tom Cruise and a few good men.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, everyone.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Happy Thanksgiving.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: You're listening to a free preview of the Politics Podcast.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: For the holiday,
• 0:24
  we're going to run through all the news stemming from Donald
• 0:26
  Trump's steep dive in
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: the polls.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that includes good news,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: like the many riffs it's opened within MAGA,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Marjorie Taylor Greene's early resignation from Congress,
• 0:37
  and Zoran Mamdani's seemingly successful charm offensive at the
• 0:40
  White House.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: It also includes more authoritarian desperation,
• 0:45
  like accusing members of Congress of sedition and calling for
• 0:48
  their deaths.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have takes on all of it.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to hear the whole thing,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics.fm.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, everyone.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Politics Podcast.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Brian Boyler.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Matthew Iglesias.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we're doing this holiday episode a little potpourri style.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Donald Trump is flailing.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think like for once, it's not like wish casting.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually happening.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's spitting out a bunch of different kinds of stories.
• 1:16
  In some realms,
• 1:17
  he's losing control and it's just very satisfying to watch.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then in others,
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: he's lashing out in ways that are also satisfying in their own way,
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: but that could do a lot of damage.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm just going to toss it to you.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where do you want to start?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Things that are amusing versus things that are more like dictatorial.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I. Well, what do you see as amusing here?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious how.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  like I watching the breakdown of his relationship with Marjorie
• 1:47
  Taylor Greene and
• 1:48
  then her decision to resign early from Congress was interesting
• 1:53
  and satisfying.
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  SPEAKER_01: I.
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  like everyone I enjoyed watching Donald Trump fawn all over
• 2:00
  Zoran Mamdani and not
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  obviously I don't think this is going to last and that it's not
• 2:06
  a harbinger of like
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  SPEAKER_01: a long-term peace between them or a good relationship,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: but like he really did seem like,
• 2:12
  Genuinely taken with the guy in a way that like he's Donald
• 2:16
  Trump is a good actor
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  SPEAKER_01: in a kind of way,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it's not subtle acting.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:22
  And the way he seemed taken with Mondani seemed earnest in a
• 2:27
  way that's not.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: typical of his acting, you know?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: so I think like,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: it really is the case that like the,
• 2:34
  the charming guy from TV that brings a bunch of cameras with
• 2:38
  him and everyone's
• 2:38
  interested in him showed up at the white house and he was just
• 2:41
  starstruck just like
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  SPEAKER_01: he would have been before he was president.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And like, that's interesting.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And also like created frustrations within his coalition.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then there's obviously like the, um, you know,
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: this idea that soldiers should do whatever he says,
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  SPEAKER_01: even if it's illegal,
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  SPEAKER_01: and anyone who says otherwise should be put to death.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, OK.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I want to talk about that.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I had a slightly different interpretation of the Mamdami meeting,
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  SPEAKER_00: which to me reminded me of Trump's durable strengths.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in a way, the resolution of this MTG thing did, too.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, which is she...
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  SPEAKER_00: Got got crosswise with Trump,
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  SPEAKER_00: was feuding with him across a number of different dimensions of issues.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the upshot is she's quitting Congress.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_00: And from the other side of the GOP caucus, you know, you had Don Bacon.
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  Also fighting with Trump about Ukraine stuff very vigorously in
• 3:52
  this this week.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he is serving out his term, but he's also on his way out.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: But like,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's like a big part of Trump's like,
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  it's not dictatorial for the president of the United States to
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  criticize a same
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  SPEAKER_00: party member of Congress like you're allowed to do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But every time it happens,
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  SPEAKER_00: it is still that,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  Trump wields this ray of death against Republicans in Congress
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  where sometimes they
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  SPEAKER_00: can turn against him,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's only either because they've already decided to retire,
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  SPEAKER_00: like Mitch McConnell,
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  SPEAKER_00: because he's old,
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  SPEAKER_00: or it's concurrent with deciding to retire.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so that...
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  Bastion of strength remains like I had kind of hoped as of like
• 4:49
  when we recorded a
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  week ago that Marjorie Taylor Greene was like crazy enough that
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  she could dissent
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  from the Trump position on certain key policy issues and like
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  also just stay in
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  SPEAKER_00: Congress.
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  And I wasn't prepared to hail her as like the next great hero
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  of anything,
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  SPEAKER_00: but just that that would be normal politics,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  To have like multiple politically viable Republicans who have
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  somewhat different
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  ideas about different things and sometimes engage in vigorous
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  criticism of Donald
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  SPEAKER_00: Trump.
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  That would be the thing that would cause me to like calm down
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  after Trump.
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  SPEAKER_00: you know, multiple years of constant high-grade anxiety.
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  SPEAKER_00: But every time we see this same pattern of like, well, I'm quitting now,
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like we're we're still in this bizarre state of exception.
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  SPEAKER_01: OK, OK.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: look,
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  SPEAKER_01: that is a valid perspective and I'm not certain that it's wrong,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I read it a different way than I read Jeff Flake or,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I guess Liz Cheney technically like.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's definitely different.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's crazy like a fox,
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  whereas they were literally just drummed out of the party that
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  I think Marjorie
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  SPEAKER_01: Taylor Greene in her in her statement.
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  SPEAKER_01: She's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: look,
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  SPEAKER_01: if I stick around,
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  what's going to happen is I'm going to defeat whichever primary
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  challenger Donald
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  SPEAKER_01: Trump recruits and finances with tens of millions of dollars.
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  And then I'm going to come back to Congress in the minority
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  because the other
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  SPEAKER_01: Republicans are going to lose.
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  And then I'm going to be expected to defend this guy who turned
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  on me when he gets
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  SPEAKER_01: impeached,
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  SPEAKER_01: quote,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: implicitly for the Epstein files stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so rather than do that, I'm just going to walk away for now.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: And like, I think she's like, I know what way.
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  SPEAKER_01: And she's almost saying this.
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  SPEAKER_01: I see what way the wind's blowing and I'm going to preserve my capital.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  and then rise from the ashes like a phoenix when it all comes
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  crumbling down,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is what she's saying she thinks is going to happen.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, like, I realize that that could be bullshit, and, like, just...
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  ignoring what people are saying and observing events from the
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  outside with the
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  SPEAKER_01: volume turned down.
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  SPEAKER_01: It just looks like the same pattern as always.
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  Somebody gets cross heads with Trump at the end of their
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  political career.
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  And that's why you like we're never going to see guardrails
• 7:13
  reimposed on Trump.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're going to remain in this dangerous predicament for a long time.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I.
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  SPEAKER_01: I just don't – it does not feel the same to me,
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  SPEAKER_01: and so I – like,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's not like – no strange new respect for Marjorie Taylor Greene for me,
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  SPEAKER_01: but that she's playing this differently,
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  SPEAKER_01: and,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: yes,
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  SPEAKER_01: she's leaving,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it's from a position of,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be around when this house of cards comes crashing down,
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  SPEAKER_01: and so I'm not going to be.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, maybe.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just –
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  SPEAKER_00: Again,
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  SPEAKER_00: a week ago,
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  this felt very different to me than like earlier iterations of
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  people breaking with
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  SPEAKER_00: Trump.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now it's still different, but I felt like it was like convergent.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so similarly with the Mamdani thing, like it was weird.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was a weird moment.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, like on a number of different levels.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been putting myself in mom Donnie's head.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like,
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  I am guessing he was prepared for every possible contingency
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  from like Donald Trump
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  typically is less confrontational in person with people than he
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  is like on camera
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  SPEAKER_01: or on on on social media.
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  SPEAKER_01: Also,
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  sometimes he tries to do a sabotage thing where he brings all
• 8:26
  the cameras in and
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  SPEAKER_01: then and like you got to be prepared for any eventual outcome.
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  SPEAKER_01: But then it was just like.
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  SPEAKER_01: like effusive praise after effusive.
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  But you were like,
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  I could not in my wildest dreams have predicted it would go
• 8:39
  this well.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well,
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  and you also saw a moment when a reporter asked Mamdami about
• 8:44
  the many times he'd
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  SPEAKER_00: referred to Trump as a fascist.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it looked to me like Mamdami was about to have a really bad moment.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: like a like a version of his Gretchen Whitmer moment,
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  SPEAKER_00: because he started like stammering and explaining a little bit.
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  But then like Trump interrupted to bail him out and be like,
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  it's OK,
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  I don't mind.
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  I really I've been thinking I would like to know what Mom
• 9:13
  Donnie had intended to
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  SPEAKER_01: say before Trump bailed him out,
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  SPEAKER_01: because you're right.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a tough question.
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  And like,
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  it's really hard to answer in a way that doesn't bring things
• 9:21
  into hostilities.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think what I the approach I would have taken,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: like with the wit of the staircase is like.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Look,
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  SPEAKER_01: this was a productive meeting,
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  and I think you're trying to derail it by asking a question
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  about whether I stand
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  SPEAKER_01: by things that I've said in the past.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yes, I stand by those things.
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  But like,
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  I don't want to,
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  you know,
• 9:42
  I don't want you to hijack what just happened.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just mean like.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: You could.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's like a pretty good answer.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: But you could easily imagine even that answer turning into,
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: so you want to work constructively with a fascist?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't think.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: the point is,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: we don't know what's behind that door because,
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Trump acted like he really wanted it to be a constructive meeting.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  So he was going to shut down a journalist's effort to put
• 10:16
  Mamdami in a difficult position.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Which like was weird.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: But.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: The upshot of the whole thing was that Trump did not.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because, again, this is Trump's strength in politics.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Trump did not take a ton of criticism from the right for that meeting.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like Elise Stefanik,
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  SPEAKER_00: who's been running around talking about how Mamdami,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: is a jihadist who needs to be removed from office,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: obviously didn't condemn Trump.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: The free press,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:55
  did not like editorialize about how Trump had sold out Jewish
• 10:58
  New Yorkers.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: What instead happened was that.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the nuttiest people on the left.
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  Did takes about how like this successful meeting prove that we
• 11:10
  were going to enter
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: like a new populist coalition in the future?
• 11:16
  And then like normal resistance minded Democrats were like,
• 11:20
  sorry,
• 11:21
  Ryan Grimm,
• 11:22
  that's dumb.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And like,
• 11:25
  I don't think anybody really criticized Mamdami for like trying
• 11:31
  to have a positive
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: meeting.
• 11:34
  But there was an impulse to,
• 11:37
  like,
• 11:40
  make a mountain out of the molehill out of that,
• 11:42
  right?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Ryan Grimm said,
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: this was a vision of,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: the future of up versus down politics rather than left versus right,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: then just,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: needled other people into being like...
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, like, I don't think that's true.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think Donald Trump is like the future of.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Working class politics and like.
• 12:04
  This is just the the advantage Trump has against any kind of
• 12:09
  opponent is that
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: whatever dumbass play he wants to call.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like his people will just mostly back him on it.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And Democrats are like very.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, persnickety.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:26
  So like even like a basically successful meeting from Mamdami's
• 12:30
  perspective,
• 12:31
  in which he seems to have won a significant substantive
• 12:34
  concession in exchange for
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: nothing,
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: like generated a round of infighting.
• 12:40
  Whereas like Trump bailing out his political opponent for no
• 12:43
  clear reason.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone was just like the master is at it again.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know what to make of that.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that I think that the picture is a little more nuanced.
• 12:54
  And if you if you like go a few layers deeper into MAGA than at
• 12:58
  least Stefanik,
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: you'll find that people are pretty upset with Trump.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: and if you go a couple layers up in the democratic coalition,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: you'll find that,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 13:08
  like the factions are still at each other's strokes cause
• 13:11
  that's democratic party
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: politics,
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: but that very few people were upset.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: There was,
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: there was like a very small dissent within,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: I guess you'd call it like the resistance wing of the,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: of the democratic party where it's like,
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: they don't like anybody who,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: claiming to have had a productive conversation with Donald Trump,
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: normalizing him in any way,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: and that includes,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: a new mayor who is,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: like—
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: has a lot at stake in whether... Yeah, sure.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a view.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: when Mamdani was asked about the meeting,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: he was like,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: we talked about the U-lerp and blah,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: blah,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: blah.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't say, like, I told him to his face, like, you're a racist.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And some people are mad about that, I guess.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Donald Trump likes to build buildings.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Mamdani wants to build buildings.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: They can,
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure Mamdani flattered him over his building history and,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: I could use your help in,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: figuring out...
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and that's good politics.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And he didn't do it publicly.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And probably that helps explain why Donald,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:13
  if if what's happening in my head is really what happened
• 14:16
  behind the scenes,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: they're like why Donald Trump was so like thrilled with the guy.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: But like, I think that underneath Trump,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like Ryan Grimm's view on this and the broad resistance view on this,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: even though they conflict with each other,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: is just like,
• 14:32
  it's great to see a talented politician dog walk Donald Trump
• 14:36
  and and like leave
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: that meeting having proven like something good about Trump.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Democrats, the party, blah, blah, blah.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And like that's how I mean, that's how I internalize it.
• 14:53
  And like I think it was like a rather unifying thing for the
• 14:57
  party in general,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: even if people are like,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:01
  kind of ankle biting each other about like their takes on why
• 15:06
  it was good.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I just mean like.
• 15:09
  No,
• 15:09
  like,
• 15:09
  I don't think anybody on the right thinks that this was,
• 15:12
  like,
• 15:13
  good for Republicans.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: I just mean,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: they're not,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I do,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I check the free press,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: quite regularly,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: because I try to monitor these things.
• 15:27
  And,
• 15:27
  like,
• 15:28
  their,
• 15:28
  like,
• 15:28
  number one issue in American politics is that Zohar Mamdani is
• 15:32
  bad.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they just, like, didn't cover this.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Meeting with Trump.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like to me,
• 15:39
  that's like it's just it's a continuation of like Trump's
• 15:43
  extraordinary power over
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: his own political coalition that other people tend to.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 15:53
  it seemed very deft of Mondami to carry out this meeting in a
• 15:57
  constructive way
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: without annoying people in his own pace.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas, like, Trump behaved totally not deftly.
• 16:06
  And like,
• 16:06
  it was still just totally fine because people don't want to
• 16:08
  complain about him.
• 16:10
  I also would point out,
• 16:11
  I mean,
• 16:11
  just in terms of like things that aren't different,
• 16:13
  that...
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: early in Trump's first term,
• 16:17
  he had a number of really like good vibes meetings with Chuck
• 16:21
  Schumer on a kind of
• 16:23
  similar basis where it felt to me like Trump was after being in
• 16:29
  a lot of meetings
• 16:31
  with Republicans who tend to be like weird evangelicals from
• 16:36
  the Sunbelt and the
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Midwest.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: He was like in a meeting with a guy from New York.
• 16:43
  who like he gets along with and like Trump and Mamdami are like
• 16:48
  both like from
• 16:48
  Queens and like know about the same like buildings and subway
• 16:52
  lines and roads and
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: stuff like that.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like Trump is this very anomalous figure in Republican party politics.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And in a lot of ways, um,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: gets along better with other New Yorkers.
• 17:05
  And,
• 17:06
  you know,
• 17:07
  even his early mentors in right wing politics were like New
• 17:10
  York guys.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And he really liked Rudy Giuliani and other people like that.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, like the fundamentals reassert themselves.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, sure.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:18
  I mean,
• 17:19
  look,
• 17:19
  I think I think the story is maybe a little bit about New York.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: He likes affable people.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: If you could just forget everything you know about Donald Trump and you
• 17:29
  and you encountered him in some alternate reality where you'd
• 17:32
  both been neuralized,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: you would believe he was an affable guy,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: even if he's also kind of like gauche and all that stuff.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And like mom, Donnie is clearly an affable guy.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And like,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: whenever Donald Trump and Barack Obama happened to be in the same place,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: like at,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: at George HW Bush's funeral,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: like they get on.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:50
  And then,
• 17:50
  and then Trump comes out of it and says,
• 17:51
  Oh yeah,
• 17:52
  we really like each other.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I, I,
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that like,
• 17:57
  that's basically the story and it doesn't necessarily impute a
• 18:01
  lot onto politics.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: But if you,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: if you did want to do something factional about it,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: that wasn't this kind of,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to call it dangerous because that overstates things,
• 18:10
  but just like this kind of analysis that reaffirms the idea
• 18:14
  that horseshoe politics
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: is good.
• 18:16
  And we can like,
• 18:18
  I would,
• 18:19
  I would set that aside and just observe that like,
• 18:23
  There's a difference between how Momdani approached Trump and
• 18:26
  how Whitmer approached Trump.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And Whitmer's turned into a fiasco, and Momdani's didn't.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to claim that for the factions,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: because Momdani's the progressive and Whitmer's the moderate,
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: go ahead and do that.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: But then just actually ask yourself,
• 18:40
  what's the difference between how he approached it and how she
• 18:43
  approached it?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: She came to Washington, and she gave this...
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: speech where she was talking about tariffs and like,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: we can,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: we can kind of find common ground.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: The problem was that Whitmer was on the true horseshoe.
• 18:59
  I mean,
• 19:00
  no,
• 19:00
  I mean,
• 19:00
  she was like,
• 19:01
  I think I think,
• 19:03
  you know,
• 19:03
  it's easy to forget now.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: But that Whitmer meeting happened at like the height of tariff politics.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Also, Trump was had more public support.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: He did.
• 19:17
  But like at that time,
• 19:18
  like like people were like really upset about the tariffs.
• 19:24
  And the UAW was like really leaning on Democrats to like not go
• 19:29
  all in on anti-tariff.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And Whitmer was like, yeah, we just like agree about how we need.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: And she even she's just like did it again and put out this like.
• 19:42
  It was an op-ed in The Washington Post a couple of weeks ago
• 19:45
  where she was like
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: being anti-Trump.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: She was like,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: this Trump tariff is like not good,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: but my nuanced,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: amazing tariffs would be great.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, she has bad opinions about tariffs.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: She was.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: More to the point,
• 19:58
  she was conciliatory and deferential in advance of the meeting
• 20:03
  and then didn't
• 20:05
  prepare for the meeting itself and the way she might be used by
• 20:08
  the Trump team.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 20:09
  And it ended in this really embarrassing thing where she's
• 20:12
  holding the folder over
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: her face while Trump's doing something corrupt over here and she's,
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: in the room giving it imprimatur.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And, like...
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's quite clear.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And he had the benefit of watching Whitmer go through this.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe that helped.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: But like Mom Donnie,
• 20:26
  I am guessing prepared for a scenario like that and would have
• 20:29
  had something in
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: mind to do to get out of it.
• 20:32
  And also like didn't didn't do like some sort of introductory
• 20:37
  event where he was
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I know that Donald Trump and I have common ground on.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: But here's why I need to speak up for Whitmer, who I think is terrible.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: He's like.
• 20:51
  I think the problem with some of this analysis is just that if
• 20:57
  you are and this
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: will segue us to Mark Kelly,
• 21:01
  but if you're representing a city where Kamala Harris got 70 to
• 21:06
  75 percent of the
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: vote.
• 21:09
  It's just like easy to have swagger in your non-conciliatory
• 21:15
  approach to Trump.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you're Gavin Newsom or if you're Pritzker or if you're Momdami,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: if you're in places where if Harris had done 10 points worse,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: she still would have won your voters.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can just do that.
• 21:30
  Whereas the people who are representing Michigan and
• 21:34
  Pennsylvania and Arizona have a
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: higher degree of difficulty problem.
• 21:41
  Like your public position as an elected official from a state
• 21:45
  that Trump won twice
• 21:47
  cannot be absolutely everything about Donald Trump is repulsive
• 21:52
  in every way.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And only a retard or a Nazi would vote for this guy.
• 21:58
  You have to say something that communicates something to the
• 22:04
  median voter in your
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: state who voted for
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Trump,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: and like there are better and worse ways of handling this,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: but it's just harder.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that brings us to the seditious six.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, OK, I mean.
• 22:23
  It is a good segue and I'm going to fuck it up for you,
• 22:26
  because I think that both of them.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Approach Trump in a harm reduction mindset.
• 22:36
  that they were trying to avoid or get out from under the many
• 22:40
  ways Trump intends
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: and threatens to harm their,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: in Whitmer's case,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: her state,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: in Mamdani's case,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: his city.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's, I think, speaks pretty well of Mamdani.
• 22:55
  That he must know that if he just went at Trump guns a blazing
• 23:00
  and Trump responded
• 23:01
  by sending a bunch of ICE agents to New York and trying to
• 23:05
  withhold a bunch of
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: federal dollars and this and that,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: that it would be very good for Mamdani politically,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: but it would be – it would make his mayoralty –
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of empty.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I agree with that.
• 23:17
  And like and like he he decided to sacrifice all that political
• 23:21
  upside in order to
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: reach some kind of at least temporary detente with Trump,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: maybe get him to hold off on the ice raids,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: maybe like get some help with housing money.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: get get some transportation dollars flowing again,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: whatever the case may be.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and like.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: if the meeting had taken the other turn,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: if Trump had been there at the desk and been like,
• 23:47
  this guy sucks as an example of why Muslims shouldn't be
• 23:51
  allowed to immigrate to
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: the United States.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then Mamdami had like escalated in kind.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then Trump had escalated,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: as you said,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: that exactly as you say,
• 24:01
  he just would have been in the position that Brandon Johnson or
• 24:03
  Pritzker were in in
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Chicago,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: which politically worked out totally fine for them.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: So he just he has that optionality.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if Whitmer,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: particularly months earlier when Trump was more popular,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: had gotten into a huge base pleasing fight with Trump,
• 24:23
  it wouldn't have just had like negative consequences for the
• 24:25
  city of Detroit.
• 24:27
  But like,
• 24:29
  I don't know that that would that that would have worked as
• 24:31
  well for her.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: But really, I want to talk about the Seditious Six.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Should we do it on the other side of a Thanksgiving paywall?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's just set up what happened, you know?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: We'll leave it as a cliffhanger for non-members.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we had six...
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Democrats seditious one.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was Mark Kelly and Alyssa Slotkin from the Senate.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then four House members, Maggie Goodlander, Chrissy Houlihan.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: What's his name from Colorado?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Jason Crow.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Jason Crow.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Who is the fourth one?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody else.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So these were like some of your national security Dems,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: mostly in frontline-ish seats,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: military veterans or a CIA in Slotkin's case.
• 25:21
  And they put out this video that when it first came out,
• 25:24
  I thought was kind of odd.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they were saying that...
• 25:30
  Members of the armed services should know that they are not
• 25:34
  required to follow
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: illegal orders and that you don't give up the ship,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: as I said,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: in the Navy,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: which is something to do with the War of 1812.
• 25:46
  I saw this video when it came out because I've followed
• 25:50
  Slotkin's Twitter account
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: and I found it like pretty unremarkable.
• 25:54
  There's like this big crop of national security Dems who were
• 25:57
  recruited in 2018.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: They are sort of moderates.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not totally clear to me in what sense they are.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: The whole shtick,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: is responsive to the political imperatives of 2006 more than 2024.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 26:14
  when like the big concern that voters had or that Democrats
• 26:18
  thought voters had was
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: that they were soft on national security.
• 26:22
  So we needed to recruit all these veterans to show that we
• 26:25
  could be tough and would
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: like kill people for American security.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Some of these guys are good politicians.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: I like them, I guess.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Most of them.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know who Chrissy Houlihan is.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Maggie Goodlander is Jake Sullivan's wife.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think Jake Sullivan did a great job.
• 26:46
  But,
• 26:46
  you know,
• 26:47
  as a national security advisor,
• 26:48
  but like it is what it is.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: they put this thing out and I was like,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: these guys are always thirsty for attention,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: but nobody cares about them.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And this is going to sink like lead.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: But then Trump decided to really blow it up and go after them.
• 27:06
  And it's definitely example of him being successful at changing
• 27:11
  the subject.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like.
• 27:15
  Like,
• 27:15
  he's got us all talking about the imminent court-martial of
• 27:19
  Senator Mark Kelly.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I really don't know why he thinks this is a good idea.
• 27:23
  So,
• 27:24
  I mean,
• 27:24
  I had a Substack Live thing with Pat Dennis of American Bridge
• 27:28
  on Monday.
• 27:29
  And Pat's view on this was that Democrats had given Trump a
• 27:33
  taste of his own
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: medicine and baiting him into—
• 27:37
  like launching into a kind of politics that is emotionally
• 27:41
  satisfying to him,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: but is not productive for him.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: and that like,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: not that the,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: not that the,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: the preceding topics were great for Trump,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: but that this is also not helpful for him.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so in that sense, it's, it's like a win for Democrats.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I saw the video of,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: I had one nit to pick with it, which was... It's weird.
• 28:07
  When you watch it,
• 28:08
  it's like three of them say,
• 28:10
  you do not have to follow...
• 28:12
  unlawful orders you do not have to follow unlawful orders and
• 28:15
  then i believe it's
• 28:16
  kelly is the last one and he finally says it right you must not
• 28:20
  obey illegal orders
• 28:21
  because that's the actual command is that you have to follow
• 28:24
  lawful orders but if
• 28:26
  the orders are unlawful you are you are not to follow them
• 28:29
  right and so the like
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: more than half of the people in this video are giving the people they're
• 28:35
  communicating with this a sense of leeway about about whether
• 28:39
  they have the the
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: the right or the discretion to follow unlawful orders.
• 28:46
  And I thought that that was weird because this is a
• 28:48
  well-produced video and more
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: care should have been put into the actual verbiage.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: But whatever,
• 28:54
  I was not going to die on that hill because I thought it was
• 28:58
  both good praxis in
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: that,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: we really are living in a dangerous time and it is good
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: For people in the military,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: A,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: to be reminded of this and B,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: to see that if they are in this situation,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: that there will be powerful politicians who will protect them.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that was I just thought it was good civics.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then separately,
• 29:18
  I thought it was going to bait Donald Trump into doing some
• 29:20
  version of what he's
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: done.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think that's good.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Where it almost goes around the bend is that this could end up being a...
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be good for him politically,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: I suspect,
• 29:34
  but a problem for Mark Kelly in that they're threatening to
• 29:38
  recall him to active
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: duty.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: He's retired,
• 29:40
  which gives them the right to recall him to active duty in
• 29:44
  order to court-martial
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: him.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I suspect this is bluster in that they won't actually do it.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: If I had to bet a few dollars on it, I think that...
• 29:52
  They're just going to let it blow over and they're just
• 29:55
  rattling a saber at him.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: But like they went after Jim Comey for real.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: They went after Letitia James for real.
• 30:01
  And they brought weak cases because the point was to harass
• 30:06
  them and embarrass them.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so those cases have been thrown out.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think Mark Kelly is going to spend a day in jail over this.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: But they might threaten, I don't know, his retirement, his rank.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't totally know what things they could do to him.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: And if they do that,
• 30:21
  like I don't know what recourse he or the Democratic Party
• 30:24
  would have in the near
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: term to help him.
• 30:27
  And so that would be like – it's politics I guess in this world
• 30:32
  of authoritarian
• 30:33
  breakthrough that you want people to be willing to put
• 30:36
  themselves in this kind of
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: danger for the sake of rallying people to the side of democracy.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: But like the –
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: the extent to which Trump has lashed out.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like I expected him to call them seditionists or traitors.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And when he said they should be put to death,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: like I know that's bad and dangerous for them,
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: but it's,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: it's very much how Donald Trump operates.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's the like Pete Hegseth now like scouring the,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: the UCMJ for like ways he can actually make this one guy's life hell.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's just shitty.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't feel good.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And like,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 31:14
  a hazard of the job that sometimes like the things you want to
• 31:18
  see Democrats do to
• 31:19
  resist Trump really is asking them to put themselves in harm's
• 31:23
  way in a way that
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: like I understand why people don't want to do it.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's take a break and talk about that.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: OK.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to hear more about the Seditious Six,
• 31:34
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