Latest / In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch / Amos Yadlin

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Amos Yadlin · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

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I'm Rabbi Ami Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York, and
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you're listening to In These Times.
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Here in the West, since Israel turned the tables on Hamas and began
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its offensive, the focus has been almost exclusively on the effects
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of the war on Palestinians in Gaza.
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But Israelis see this as an existential fight, and it's
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bigger than just Hamas or Gaza.
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It goes to the heart of Western civilization as well.
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Major General Amos Yadlin began his 40 year military career in the
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Israeli Air Force as a fighter pilot.
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He fought in the skies during the Yom Kippur War, and was one of the eight
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pilots selected to carry out the strike on Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor.
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But more than a fighter pilot, with 250 combat missions under his belt,
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he is a brilliant strategist who commanded the IDF Military College
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and National Defense College.
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He served as Israel's military attache to the United States, and was chief of the
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IDF's Military Intelligence Directorate, a graduate of Harvard's Wexner Israel
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Fellowship Program, and a Washington Institute for Near East Policy fellow.
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Today, he's the founder and current president of Mind Israel, an Israeli
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national security consultancy.
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I've asked Major General Yadlin to join me today to help contextualize
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the ongoing war with Hamas and the international reaction.
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Amos, welcome to in these times.
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It is my pleasure.
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We're recording this as Israel gears up for the operation in Rafa.
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We've known each other for a long time, Amos.
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Your father was a great public servant.
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And I heard his name in my family for many, many years.
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He was one of the founders of Kibbutz Be'eri.
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What went through your mind on October 7th and are you close at Kibbutz Be'eri?
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That was one of the Kibbutzim that suffered the most devastating
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consequences on October 7th.
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Have you been there since?
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Do you know people who are still members of Kibbutz Be'eri?
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Yeah, my father was the secretary general of the group that created, founded Be'eri.
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in 1946.
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It was a move by Ben Gurion to have a new 11 kibbutzim or settlements in the
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Negev to make sure that when partition of Eretz Israel will happen, the
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Negev will be under the Jewish state.
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So my father led the group that went to Be'eri.
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He was there for five years, until in the early 50s.
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There was a split in the kibbutzim movement, so he, uh, moved to the kibbutz
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of my mother, which called Hatziri.
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And the irony of history is that now, uh, the people that survived, uh, are
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making a new settlement, temporary one, until Be'eri will rebuild, in
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kibbutz Hatzirim, as a neighbor.
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My father, if he were alive, would like to see very much his previous kibbutz.
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United with the kibbutz that he lived in for almost 70 years.
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Your father was a liberal, he was a labor Zionist.
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I think it's fair to say that many of those kibbutzim and kibbutzniks
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and civilians on the border were among the most liberal of Israelis.
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How do you think October 7th influenced those people, that part of the political
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equation in terms of prospects for coexistence with the Palestinians?
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What do you think about that?
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See, Be'eri is not the most liberal, not the most socialist.
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There are kibbutzim like Nir'oz that were even more to the left, believe
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in all their heart in a two state solution, in peace with the Palestinians.
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And these people were butchered, killed, raped in the most catastrophic way.
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So all of them are now asking themselves questions.
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Can we coexist with the Palestinians?
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Well, we, uh, understood how much they are murderers, how much they
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hate Israel, how much they are willing to do a genocide in Israel.
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Uh, these people will thinking now, again, after they will get out of the
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trauma, not so far by the way, what they witness, what they saw, you know,
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members of Kibbutzim that saw their kids, Beheaded, young people that saw their
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parents and grandparents killed, burned.
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They will be in a post trauma situation for a long time.
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So politically, it's not that important.
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It's a minority of minority in Israel.
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The kibbutzim movement that was 4 percent and leading the Israel
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leadership in the 50s and 60s are now 1%.
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And it's not important politically.
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It's a minority.
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It's important morally, and most of the Israelis, unfortunately,
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moved to the right because of what happened on the 7th of October.
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However, they are not willing to be under Prime Minister Netanyahu's right,
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because this is an extreme right.
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This is a government that depends on Bengvid and Smotrych.
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And most of the liberals, the right wing liberals in Israel, that are
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now getting a lot of center left people into it, they are not willing
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to be with the current government.
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They are looking for a new leadership that, on one hand, will ensure that the
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7th of October will never happen again.
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Security wise, they will be extreme right.
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But on liberal issues, On the issue of trying to reach peace, they will want.
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Peace with security and they are looking for a leader that will lead
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them from where we are now to a more, uh, reasonable government.
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I want to ask you, uh, primarily about, uh, three issues.
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The military situation, the diplomatic situation, and the internal
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political situation in Israel.
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You're a, uh We're a very senior and decorated commander
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in the Israel Air Force.
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You're a military expert.
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Tell us what your view of the current situation is.
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Israel at the beginning of this war laid out three objectives, none of
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which really have been achieved.
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First, to dismantle Hamas's ability to make war.
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Second, to return all of the hostages.
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And third, on the day after, that Hamas wouldn't be, uh, governing, uh, Gaza.
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So it looks to me like none of these objectives have been achieved.
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What is your view of the current military situation and the
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successes of the campaign as well as, uh, some of the failures?
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Yeah, no doubt that the three goals were not achieved completely as they
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were achieved partly and to tell you the truth when the government put forward
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these objectives I criticize them for being unachievable, uh, and some even
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conflicting because if you want to destroy Hamas and the hostages is among the
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Hamas it's not that easy to destroy them.
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If you want to bring the hostages.
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Hamas may survive.
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So these tensions were there from the very beginning, and I think
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Israel's strategy was as if we have all the time in the world.
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Once again, as an independent analyst and strategist, I gave the government
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in the very beginning my view that they don't have all the time in the world.
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It is not a superpower like the U.
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S.
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fighting Japan until unconditional.
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It's Israel against Hamas in a very complex global situation when two
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superpowers are supporting Hamas, Russia and China, when the Arab
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world want very much Israel to destroy Hamas, however, distinguish
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between Hamas and Palestinians, and I knew that we don't have this time.
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The counterargument was, look what happened in 2002 when Arafat
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launched his second Intifada.
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After the Sadr suicide bombing in Latania, Israel went to an operation.
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It was two months, high intensity operation, getting into the Palestinian
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cities and the refugee camps.
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And then three years until terror was basically defeated to a minimal
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level that is not affecting the strategic parameters of ISIL.
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And I say it is not the same.
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It is not the same because of two issues.
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Hamas prepare an army.
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There was no army in the West Bank in 2002.
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There were terrorists.
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Terrorists sell terrorist team, but not an army.
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Hamas prepare an army, and they prepare it for 15 years, and it's
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gonna need another kind of operation.
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And, more important, in 2002, there was not 240 hostages at
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the hands of Arafat terrorists.
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So, I think that the right goal was to make sure that Hamas cannot
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do a 7th of October again to destroy its army to a level that
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it cannot attack Israel anymore.
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If the governance of Hamas should be replaced, you have to prepare
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a replacement who will get into the vacuum, and the government
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of Israel refused to do it.
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They say no Hamas, no PA.
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I'm saying no Israel.
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So who will go to the vacuum?
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Why are they refusing to do it?
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Is that political, internal political dynamics in Israel?
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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That's because the prime minister is depends on two right wingers, uh,
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the Bengvil and the Smotrich parties.
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His political survival depends on that.
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And instead of taking the very reasonable terms that came from Washington, which
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say RPA, Reform Palestinian Authority, because I agree that this Palestinian
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Authority is corrupt, is not legitimate, paying terrorists, uh, educate terrorists,
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And cannot even control Jenin or Tulkau.
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But the, the term Palestinian was not agreed by this government,
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even if it's revised, revitalized.
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performance based Palestinian authority, some Palestinian
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technocrats that will take Gaza with the help of an Arab consortium,
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Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Jordan.
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But after seven months, we haven't achieved this goal.
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And what have changed in these seven months, That Hamas as a military
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basically cannot attack Israel anymore.
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18 out of 24 battalions are destroyed.
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Israel destroyed many of their underground Uh, facilities, if they try to fire a roll
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cap to Israel, they are unable to do it.
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So the 7th of October is out of a question.
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They cannot do it.
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And we should define not what Netanya call complete victory.
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We should say the victory is to bring back the hostages.
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Mm-Hmm.
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. There was an argument that the military operation is supporting
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bringing back the hostages.
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It was right in the first month.
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It was right when we were able to supply Sonoa and to, uh, basically
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destroy all his forces in Gaza and remove immediate Palestinians from Gaza.
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He was shocked and he was ready to return half of the hostages.
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It is not right today.
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Today the hostages should be, uh, the goal of the war, then bring back people
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to the western negar to be then when there will be a ceasefire in the south.
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There will be a cease file in the north.
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That's what Nasrallah have said.
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When the war in Gaza is gone, I'm stopping.
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Then you can remove Hezbollah diplomatically by reaffirm UN
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Security Council 1701 that remove Hezbollah north of the river, uh,
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Biden invoice, uh, to Lebanon and Israelis working on.
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Then we can have normalization with the Saudis.
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Then we can have, uh, the coalition that have stopped so efficiently the
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attack from Iran based on US and Israel and some Arab countries, and UK and
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France, against Iran as the main, uh, problematic force in the middle.
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That want to destroy Israel, this is another strategy than sticking to the
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original goals that you set, and rightly so, that are not working and unachievable.
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So you think had the goals.
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of the military campaign been defined as dismantling Hamas's
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ability to repeat October 7th.
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Israel, by now, could have already proclaimed victory in that respect.
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Absolutely, and we have a very strong leverage against Hamas.
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which is, uh, the, the request of Hamas to end the war.
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We can now put it forward as you want us to end the war,
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bring all the hostages back.
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And then it's the second goal achieved.
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You need some positive vision and defined it as a victory.
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Yes, Hamas may stay there.
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It will be weak.
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We can have another opportunity to destroy.
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Believe me, Hamas or Islamic Jihad will give us the excuse in the future.
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But now we have to look at the goals of this war regionally, because
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we are fighting in seven fronts.
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Never happened since 1948.
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We are fighting in Gaza, we are fighting in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq,
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the Houthis, the West Bank, and Iran.
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And we have to rearrange our priorities.
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We have an opportunity to have a diplomatic achievement.
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That always come after a military campaign.
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And unfortunately, the tan government is not dealing with
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diplomatic, uh, moves that have to go together with the military move.
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And Israel has a, has a possibility after this cata of to, uh, to change it
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into, uh, an opportunity, an opportunity to have a coalition against Ilan,
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uh, normalization with the Saudis.
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In a way, Sinwar, one of the reasons, besides the fact that he
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is a jihadist that wants to destroy Israel, but he wants also to derail
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the Israeli Saudi normalization.
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If we do it, it's another victory that we can have.
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Continuing with these seven month goals without Rethinking and updating
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them is a huge strategic mistake.
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The one silver lining that one can glean from the Iranian attack on Israel, those
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300 plus missiles and various other projectiles, it did Open up a window on
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some of the geopolitical victories that Israel can claim as a result of this war.
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I mean, you know, the idea that Saudi Arabia and Jordan and the Americans,
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the UK and France all participated in intercepting some of these missiles.
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It created a little glimpse of a tremendous victory that could emerge
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for Israel from this conflict.
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Do you agree with that?
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Yes.
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I think the, the Iranians, uh, were defeated in April five times.
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They were defeated by the fact that a general who is, uh, almost number two in
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Kutz force, that for 20 years was planning and building a military capacities in
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Syria and Lebanon, uh, was targeted.
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and removed as Qasem Soleimani was.
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Then the Iranians fired this barrage of missiles that were never launched
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against any country in one night.
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120 ballistic missiles, 170 drones, very much like the drones that the Russians
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are launching towards Ukraine, and a lot of rockets from their proxies.
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and 30, uh, cruise missiles, and Israel stopped all of them.
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Israel was not hurt in any important target.
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And they targeted our air bases and intelligence.
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This is a huge achievement.
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Then, what they were unable to do with hundreds of projectiles,
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we did with three missiles.
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According to the New York Times, Israel destroyed S 300,
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which is advanced air defense.
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is that defend their, uh, nuclear facilities around Isfahan.
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And they were vulnerable.
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They were unable to stop.
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And then they again, for a glimpse of, of two or three days, the international
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community understand who is the aggressor.
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and who is the defender.
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And they brought Israel and America once again for a week to be together
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on 100%, which is important.
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So I think this is one of the good news of this war.
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It is not yet over.
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We will test the deterrence that was achieved.
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If it was achieved in the next move of Israel against Israel.
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Iranian proxies in Syria and in Lebanon.
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We have to understand that this is the first direct attack from Iran
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on Israel and from Israel on Iran.
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We are in a shadow war for 20 years, but the two sides were very, very
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careful not to go to a direct attack and not to escalate to an open war.
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The last time that a country, a state, That is, member of the UN attacked
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Israel was 1991 with Saddam Hussein.
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Since then, we are dealing only with proxies, terror organizations.
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And this is the first time that Iran attacked Israel since 1991.
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And I hope the president of Iran will end up like Saddam Hussein.
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Well, the ramification of that precedent is what exactly you think Iran actually
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did itself harm by launching this attack?
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The jury is still out.
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But as we speak today, it was a very bad month for Iran.
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With, uh, long term ramifications for the stability of the government, do you think?
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What we constantly hear is what these entities want more than
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anything else is to stay in power.
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And that's what the Iranian government is most concerned about.
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Do you think that this perhaps burgeoning coalition against Iran, which might
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include the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia, do you think that that has long term
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ramifications and is it threatening for the stability of the Iranian government?
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I'm not sure.
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I think the Iranians know exactly what I described, that they have done
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a mistake and they are vulnerable.
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However, the regime is publishing and marketing to the public
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another story, stories that they attacked Israel, and there is a
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lot of damage to Israeli air bases.
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It's a warning for Israel.
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And what Israel have done in return is a couple of small
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drones that achieve nothing.
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So, this is a way that a dictatorship is speaking to their people to
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make sure that the regime will not be blamed by the failure.
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In 2007, by the way, when Israel attacked the nuclear facility in Syria,
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and we wanted to avoid escalation, we understood that on this nuclear
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project, there is very, very small group.
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of people who know about it.
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Even the defense minister and the chief of staff have no idea.
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And if we will not boast about destroying this nuclear, we
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may avoid war of retaliation.
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And that's exactly what Bashar sold to his people.
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That Israeli airplane were attacking an empty camp in the desert, and they
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were, uh, removed by the brave Syrian Air Force, and nothing happened.
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So it's what's happening today in Iran remind me the same story.
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My last question about Iran is one of your missions was on the destruction
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of the Osirak nuclear reactor in Iraq.
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Looming behind all of this is the Iranian nuclear project.
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Where do you think that stands?
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How urgent do you think that is?
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And what kind of threat does that now pose for Israel and the West, I would add?
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It is a very, very serious threat.
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But podcast to dive into all the details.
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The Iranian strategy.
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Since the Iranians are smart, sophisticated, and they know
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something about strategy, is not to run to the bomb as fast as
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possible, but as safe as possible.
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They have learned the lesson of Saddam Hussein, of Bashar Assad, of Muammar
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Gaddafi, and they want to be very close to the bomb in the threshold.
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as much as they can under a legitimate cover up.
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So, they are now quite close to the capability to produce fusil material
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for 5 7 bombs in a military grade.
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They haven't, uh, started yet the weaponization because this is violating
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the fact that they signed the NPT.
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And this cannot go with the cover story, that the uranium is for
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producing power because there is no oil and gas in, uh, in Iraq.
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So, We have to look very careful whether they decide to break out of the bomb
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by operating a weaponizing group.
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There are promises of four American presidents in a row,
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Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden, that Iran will not be with Bukelepov.
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I hope, and I call for it in the last 10 years, that instead of making
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speeches on the Hill, And instead of fighting with the Americans,
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what is the right move towards Iran?
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We should have a common strategy, and we have to do it together.
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Israel and the U.
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S.
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to define our red line, to define our trigger, to define what operationally the
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two of us will do, and who will do what, and what support the other side need.
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And we are sharing intelligence, but it's not enough.
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We have to share the strategy and the operational plan.
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Let
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me ask you, I, of course, always concerned about Jewish
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morality and morality in general.
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You participated in 250 or so missions beyond Israel's borders.
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You dropped bombs on Israel's enemies.
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President Biden at one point called the bombing in Gaza indiscriminate.
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Could you help us through the moral morass?
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Do you think Israel has been, uh, excessive in its military operation?
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Do you think that the bombing has been indiscriminate?
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I don't think so.
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I think it was according to the international law.
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I don't think it was more indiscriminate than the Americans operation against Tokyo
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in May 1945, when they burned the whole city, uh, with most of them civilians.
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It's much more, uh, moral than what have been done in Dresden.
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And if you don't want to go to World War II, go to Afghanistan, go to
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Vietnam, go to any American campaign.
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Uh, we can compare the numbers and we will see that what Israel have done
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in Gaza is basically, uh, in the same proportion, uh, like the Americans.
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However, even more on the moral issue, Israel asked all the
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civilians to leave Gaza before it started bombing and patrolling.
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You mean not, not the entire Gaza Strip.
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You mean the area that Israel intended to bomb?
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Exactly.
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In the Gaza City.
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And remember, Hamas is not fighting with the same rules
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of war that we are fighting.
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On the contrary, they didn't let some of the people to live, and
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all their, uh, command posts were under hospitals, schools, uh, UNRWA,
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uh, offices, and civilian places.
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So Israel asked everybody to leave anything that belonged to Hamas,
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and then launch, uh, the campaign.
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And the campaign would have stopped if Sinwar, who started this war, Would
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say, okay, I'm giving back the hostages.
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Stop the campaign.
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It would have been stopped.
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So I think war is an awful and very, very problematic moral dilemma because you have
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the duty to protect your people, to make the 7th of October not happening again.
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Israel haven't go to Gaza to kill civilians.
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On the contrary, we would love the fact that the only victims were Hamas.
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But we went to Gaza that it will never happen again.
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And those who to blame about the civilian casualty is Hamas.
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So in this respect, I would like to hear President Biden, Secretary
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of State Blinken blaming Hamas for what is happening in Gaza.
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Why do you think that message is not getting through?
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Or maybe it got through immediately after October 7th.
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But the assumption now in the West, I'm, of course, you're in Israel, I'm here.
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The assumption, even those who want to defend Israel, is there've
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been too many casualties in Gaza.
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The term genocide is casually spouted in political conversation,
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in normative political conversation, even in the halls of Congress.
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We have these investigations in the International Court of
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Justice, and now there's some talk about arrest warrants at the ICC.
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Why do you think that Israel is not able to convince not only the Western
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opponents of Israel who may have come from the Middle East and are Palestinian
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supporters and receive financial contributions from Palestinians, but,
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but just, uh, people who seem fair minded and are in the political system.
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What's going on in the West that they don't see clearly.
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What you're talking about,
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I'm not expert to your, uh, public opinion.
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Uh, it's not Palestinian money.
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It's Qatari money.
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Qatari money is buying a lot of your academic chairs and universities and
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anything that they can play against Israel, they will play against Israel
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Once again, war is something awful.
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If you remember when the US withdraw from Afghanistan after 20 years.
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20 years, not 7 months.
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Americans attack and kill innocent people around their airfield.
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They apologize.
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They say that in war there are mistakes.
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And this is happening from time to time in war.
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What is important is that every target in Israel is approved
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by international lawyers.
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And we are fighting according to the international law.
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The fact that we cannot convince them that Sinwar has started this war And
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Sinwar is using the Gazen as a human.
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She is maybe a failure of the, uh, ASRA of Israel, but I think it's
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all has to do with a lot of Qatari money, Arab Ma, the tendency to look
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at Israel as the strong power and look at the Palestinian as the weak.
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Even though they initiate this war in the more barbaric, unacceptable attack on
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women and children and young girls and old Israelis, I think if it would happen in
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America, that some Mexicans will say, you know, Texas and California belong to us.
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You took it from us in 1848.
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We are now going to the city of San Diego.
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We are killing, I think the ratio is 15, 000 Americans, and
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kidnapping about 4, 000 to Mexico.
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What would America do?
32:43
Believe me, nobody will say anything about what the U.
32:48
S.
32:48
military will do to Mexico.
32:50
Can I ask you about the conceptual and operational collapses on October 7th?
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It looks like There were political misconceptions, military
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misconceptions on the strategic level, as well as operational
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failures on October 7th itself.
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Two things.
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One, do you think the National Commissions of Investigation will
33:19
be established soon in order to, uh, investigate all of the components.
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I know the military is doing something internal, but it's, it's limited.
33:28
So do you think that those commissions will be established?
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Because in their absence, we will never really know what was a source of
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the failures, catastrophic failures.
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And secondly, I also want to ask you what you think.
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Already now, even in the absence of the commissions of investigation, where do
33:50
you think the fundamental problems lay?
33:53
Okay, uh, I think there, there was a trilateral failure, an
34:00
intelligence failure, an operational failure, and a policy failure.
34:06
The intelligence failure Uh, is in my mind un, unacceptable, and
34:16
I cannot imagine that it happened.
34:19
The plan of the attack was in the hands of the intelligence.
34:24
So they haven't pay enough attention to the plan.
34:29
There was a big mistake on the intentions of Hamas.
34:34
They thought in a Western thinking that Sinwar is a leader that cares
34:43
and accountable to his people.
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And he misled them.
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He say, welfare of Gaza is more important to me and to my people.
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I want them to work in Israel.
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I want them to get the Qatari money.
34:57
And they haven't thought that this is a jihadist, that destroying Israel is
35:04
the goal and the rest is serving it.
35:07
So huge mistake on intention.
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Also mistake on the capabilities.
35:13
They haven't paid attention that he Created a military.
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They thought that if he will attack Israel, it will be on one
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or two places to kidnap 10 people.
35:28
They haven't imagined the whole attack, even though the plan was in their head.
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So huge intelligence fail on intention, on capability, on early warning.
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And this failure was all over the community.
35:45
It was the military intelligence.
35:46
It was Mossad.
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It was Shin Bet.
35:49
So this should be investigated as soon as possible.
35:54
Second is operation.
35:56
Every operational commander should be ready to stop the enemy, even if
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he's not getting an early warning of the intelligence, you should be
36:07
ready every day to stop the enemy.
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So there was some mistake in the level of the forces and the readiness.
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And this also should be investigated.
36:20
What's even more problematic in my eye is that, uh, hours, hours, 12
36:27
hours, some of the kibbutzim were left without any IDF support and help.
36:34
So this also should be investigated.
36:37
On the policy level, Prime Minister Netanyahu decided that they will
36:43
help Hamas because they hate the PA.
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So, Netanyahu prefers a strong Hamas and a weak PA.
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And this is a huge mistake that happened for 10 years, a decade.
36:58
And at this time, he let Hamas build a military.
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So, just last word.
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You have to distinguish between debriefing, which is professional
37:10
and start to be done on the military side, on the operational side, on the
37:15
intelligence side, not on the government side, and the commissions that you
37:20
mentioned, to investigate the failure.
37:23
You know, the debriefing is how to do it better next time.
37:29
The commission has to indicate who to blame.
37:32
Do you think we're close to their establishment?
37:36
Not as long as this government is there.
37:39
Hmm.
37:40
My final question to you is, are you optimistic about
37:43
Israel looking into the future?
37:47
I'm always optimistic, because when I was head of intelligence, I used to
37:53
brief President Peres, Shimon Peres.
37:57
And he always say, Amos, what you are describing is, uh, grave scenarios
38:03
and dangers to the state of Israel.
38:05
I have recommendation for you.
38:07
The optimist and the pessimist are dying the same, but they live different.
38:14
So be more optimist.
38:16
And I think if we will be smart enough to change the objective and the goals of
38:23
the war, to change our government from a government that is hostage to right
38:29
wingers that paralyze it and continue to take it to the wrong direction.
38:36
We can, as we did after the Yom Kippur War, and I'm a veteran as a
38:41
young pilot of Yom Kippur, and it was a trauma very similar to this one.
38:47
Even not that bad, by the way, but it took a decade and we learned the last lessons.
38:54
We changed the leadership and we have made Israel different.
38:58
This is what Israel should do after finishing with this war, taking
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the opportunities that I described in this conversation and change
39:09
the leadership and going forward.
39:11
There is huge potential of young generation and my kids who are now.
39:17
40 and can lead this country and many, many good people because this war,
39:23
after discovering all the failures, also discover, uh, bravery, uh,
39:31
solidarity, a lot of spirit, a positive spirit that with the right leader,
39:41
On that note, Major General Amos Yadlin, thank you, uh, for your
39:46
decades of service to the State of Israel and to the Jewish people.
39:50
Uh, thank you for, uh, giving us this, uh, time.
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Uh, and we, uh, wish you and, uh, all of our brothers and sisters in Israel well.
40:06
I've spoken with hundreds of Israelis since October 7th, both here and abroad.
40:10
and in Israel, and of course, I have interacted with thousands
40:15
of American Jews and non Jews.
40:17
It is fascinating to me to see how differently our communities
40:20
cover and view this war.
40:23
In the West, the focus on the October 7 atrocities dissipated long ago, roughly
40:29
around the time Israel began its offensive against Hamas after repelling some 1,
40:33
500 terrorists from Israeli territory.
40:37
We seem to have forgotten the precipitating massacres and kidnappings,
40:41
And our almost exclusive focus for months now has been on the effects
40:46
of the war on Palestinians in Gaza.
40:49
It is, of course, legitimate to emphasize the human cost of war.
40:54
I, too, am torn apart by Palestinian suffering.
40:58
Like the removal of a drop of wine from the Passover Seder Kiddush Cup,
41:03
every day of Palestinian anguish diminishes my joy of being alive.
41:08
Jews are described in our tradition as Merciful ones.
41:14
The Children of the Merciful.
41:16
With everything else we hold in our hearts, we must keep abundant space for
41:20
the suffering of innocent Palestinians.
41:24
In Israel, however, and for many of us Jews abroad, we know that
41:29
the anguish of Gaza is not the only moral or geopolitical issue at stake.
41:34
Hamas imposed on Israel a war of no choice.
41:37
It Islamist forces who seek not only Israel's annihilation, but The only
41:47
reason that 1, 200 Israelis were slaughtered, rather than 12, 000 or 120,
41:51
000, is not in intent, but in capacity.
41:55
The terrorists were stopped by the most courageous acts of
41:58
civilian and military valor.
42:00
Thousands of people are alive today because of regular Israeli civilians and
42:05
security personnel, some of whom were no older than American university students.
42:12
Others who were in their 50s and 60s.
42:14
who rushed to the scene, and on their shoulders, held the sky suspended.
42:21
I watched a documentary recently on the Battle of Normandy.
42:25
What most of us remember is D Day, June 6, 1944, and the horrible price paid
42:32
to establish beachheads on the shore.
42:35
Few of us realize that the Battle of Normandy took nearly three months.
42:40
German forces were arrayed in defense lines fortified over many years, and they
42:44
were embedded in the local population.
42:47
In the 85 days it took to liberate Normandy, an estimated 20, 000 French
42:52
civilians died, and many thousands more were wounded and dislocated.
42:58
The Allies bombed French villages, pulverizing them to rubble.
43:03
It was the only way to loosen the death grip of Nazi forces.
43:07
Nobody asked then, nor do they ask today, why the Allies caused the deaths of
43:13
so many thousands of French villagers.
43:14
To the contrary.
43:16
There are still annual celebrations of the liberation
43:19
and eternal gratitude to America.
43:22
They realize then, and they understand now, that war is awful
43:27
and causes us to kill, and that innocents die and suffer in war.
43:34
It is why all who care about fellow human beings should do everything in their
43:38
power to avoid war in the first place.
43:40
Once a war is launched, It will inevitably result in death and destruction.
43:47
And the more dangerous and the more extreme is your enemy, the
43:51
more ferocious the war will be.
43:54
What did they expect?
43:57
That Israel would not defend itself from the worst pogrom inflicted
44:00
on Jews since the Holocaust?
44:03
What did they expect?
44:04
That no innocent civilians would be killed?
44:06
Especially since Hamas hides behind their own population,
44:10
using them as human shields?
44:12
Can you imagine how much international money, including our own tax dollars,
44:18
were invested to build a tunnel system under Gaza that is more
44:22
elaborate than the London underground?
44:25
Can you imagine how many people must have known about it?
44:28
How many workers it took to build this monstrosity?
44:31
Practically every hospital, school, playground, mosque contained openings
44:36
to tunnels and weapons inside.
44:39
What a tragedy.
44:41
Not only for Israelis, but for Palestinians, too.
44:46
With all those billions of dollars flowing into Gaza, it could have been transformed
44:50
into an oasis of peace and prosperity, a veritable Singapore on the Mediterranean.
44:57
October 7 revealed to Israelis, Jews, and all fair minded people
45:02
that genocidal forces seeking the destruction of Israel are a raid
45:06
a mile away from Jewish villages.
45:09
For Where you stand on an issue is often determined by where you sit.
45:14
If you sit in an Ivy League classroom, you perceive threats differently than if you
45:19
were a mile away from genocidal murderers.
45:22
The henchmen of Hamas didn't ask the political views of those
45:26
they butchered and kidnapped.
45:28
If the most fervent peace activists, Jews or non Jews, even anti Zionist
45:32
BDS activists, happened to have found themselves in one of those
45:36
Israeli villages on October 7th.
45:39
They, too, would have been slaughtered, as were many Israeli peace activists
45:44
living in those border communities.
45:48
Amos Yadlin reminded us that in Israel, they view this as an
45:51
existential war imposed on Israelis while they were sleeping at 6.
45:56
30 a.
45:56
m.
45:57
after a night of celebrating Shabbat and the festival, rejoicing in life, communing
46:02
with families, and dancing at concerts.
46:06
No Israeli woke up on October 7, saying to himself, How can I conquer Gaza today,
46:12
or how can I harm Palestinians today?
46:14
The opposite.
46:16
As it turns out, thousands of Gazans woke up on October 7th to massacre,
46:21
gang rape, pillage, and murder Jews.
46:25
Men, women, children, and babies.
46:29
And they were so deliriously proud of what they did.
46:32
They filmed themselves.
46:34
Something even the Nazis didn't do.
46:37
The Nazis tried to hide their crimes.
46:40
This is the broader context.
46:42
It is a struggle that involves Israel most acutely because
46:45
Israel is on the front lines.
46:47
But if they defeat Israel, they will come for us in Europe and America.
46:52
They represent the same ideology that perpetrated 9 11.
46:57
You can see that clearly in the actions of some of their American
46:59
supporters, who burn American flags and shout, Death to America.
47:06
The road ahead will be difficult and painful.
47:08
Years of healing await us.
47:11
For all of our Jewish listeners, keep the faith.
47:14
We are not the first Jews, only the latest Jews.
47:18
We have seen all this many times before.
47:22
We are part of a 3, 000 year old civilization, often despised, always
47:27
small, but great in so many ways.
47:32
We are a resilient and courageous people.
47:34
We are optimistic.
47:36
We invest in the future.
47:38
We are productive and involved in society.
47:43
We will overcome and prevail.
47:48
I hope that this hardship reawakens and reinforces what
47:52
Israel and Judaism mean to you.
47:55
I hope that you will recommit to Jewish life and renew your understanding of
48:00
the preciousness of your inheritance.
48:03
The gift of generations past.
48:06
Who withstood hardships greater than ours, and whose determination and
48:11
steadfastness bequeathed Judaism to you.
48:20
Until next time, this is In These Times.