Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Justin Bieber’s Coachella, The Comeback’s Dan Bucatinsky & Alex Cooper vs. Alix Earle

Transcript

Justin Bieber’s Coachella, The Comeback’s Dan Bucatinsky & Alex Cooper vs. Alix Earle · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Christmas shopping has already started in our house. My daughter
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: is so organised, already planning Christmas gifts from Macaulay. Hair
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: care for her aunt and a fab fragrance for her bestie.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: But the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I'm
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: an early bird, buying one present a week from now
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: till Christmas, which makes budgeting less stressful. I can buy
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: in-store or online from Macaulay.ie for home delivery or free
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: click and collect.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: So easy.
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  Speaker 1: Gifts they'll cherish at prices you'll love. Heather MacDonald has
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  Speaker 1: got the Juicy Scoop.
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  Speaker 2: When you're on the road, when you're on the go.
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  Speaker 3: Juicy Scoop is the show to know.
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  Speaker 1: She talks Hollywood tales, her real-life Mr. Segment, serial data,
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  Speaker 4: Fast to the number one tabloid real-life podcast.
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  Speaker 3: Listen in, listen up.
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  Speaker 5: Woo, woo.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: Heather MacDonald.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Juicy Scoop.
• 1:00
  Speaker 4: Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I have the best
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: show for you today. You're absolutely going to love it.
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: I know many of you follow me on Instagram and
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: TikTok and you're like, Heather, you were at Coachella.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: How was that? Give us a scoop.
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: Well, I technically did a rage bait video, which was
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: my sister Shannon was coming over because we were going
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: to record a Juicy Crimes, which by the way is
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: every Wednesday.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: Please subscribe. It's always so good and juicy.
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: And as she was coming over, I looked at this
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: little weird dress I had and I put together a
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  Speaker 4: Coachella outfit. And so I greeted my sister at the
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: door and she's like, what the hell is this outfit?
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: And then Drake was like, oh, and I think it
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  Speaker 4: would be really funny if you did like a photo
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  Speaker 4: shoot like every other Coachella girl.
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  Speaker 3: And we post it.
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: And so we went out just outside my pool and
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  Speaker 4: did this thing. And I loved the comments. Now, 90%
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  Speaker 4: 4% of you were like, oh my God, you're never
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: too old for Coachella.
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  Speaker 3: You look great.
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  Speaker 4: And then the other 6%, the rage baiting worked and
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: they were furious. Like, how dare you wear this outfit?
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  Speaker 4: What are you doing? I did not attend. We streamed it.
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: I went out to a fun dinner with Martin Ballard,
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: the interior designer to the Starz. who will be on
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: Juicy Scoop as well in Palm Springs and went to
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: his beautiful home. I just had a great weekend. We
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: just had so much fun, but I did not actually go.
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: You know, I did not camp. I did not go
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: to Coachella, but we did watch our boy, Justin Bieber,
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: where he was a headliner Saturday night and not a
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: fan of jorts.
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  Speaker 3: Never been.
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  Speaker 4: The outfit was not the look that I love my
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  Speaker 4: Justin Biebs wearing. He basically wore the same thing that
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: he wore every morning when he goes to Vintage Coffee,
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: which is in La Quinta, and everyone knows that he
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: goes there, and he loves to get his coffee, which
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: is fine, but I don't think that you should be
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: mad that, you know, other people want to see you
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: at Vintage Coffee. You are Justin Bieber. You can have
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: the coffee delivered to your house. So if you come
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: because you want to Be out in the wild. Just
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: know that now you're out in the wild and you
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: better be a delight with your hoodie on.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: But he is a delight when he goes there.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: And by the way, go to the local, which is
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: next door in La Quinta and get the best food
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: of your life.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: That's, we love to go for brunch.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Lunch, dinner.
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: Anyway, so he comes out and listen, I was looking
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: forward to, I liked when he wore his underwear and
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: sang about the Yukon and Tucson. Okay, I like that.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: I'd never heard the song before. That was the first
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: time I saw it. I've watched it a bunch of times.
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  Speaker 4: I like a shirtless Justin. I like seeing a little
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: more of the body. He's 32, so it's okay now
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  Speaker 4: to say that. Anyway, no, he never took off his shirt.
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  Speaker 4: He kept this outfit on, and he played a lot
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  Speaker 4: of new songs, all of which I know I will love.
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  Speaker 3: But then he... got on the laptop and.
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  Speaker 4: This is where there was some controversy and he was
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: looking up himself. And then he would play some songs
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: where he was almost harmonizing with his younger self, which
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  Speaker 4: that I thought was really cool. So you would get
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  Speaker 4: like a half of a song, like baby, baby, like
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  Speaker 4: a hit or whatever. But there wasn't any, there was
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  Speaker 4: no big stage thing. There was no big dancing. There
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: was no shirts were being removed. The jorts stayed on. Um,
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  Speaker 4: I kind of was like, I don't know. I could
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  Speaker 4: see the controversy, okay? But a lot of people really
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  Speaker 4: loved it, that he didn't have to do a big
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: stage thing, that it was unique, and that it was
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  Speaker 4: kind of an artistic thing, and it was like a
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  Speaker 4: full circle, being that he's been in the business for
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  Speaker 4: 19 years. I thought that was really cool. It's reported
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: that he made $ 10 million. However, YouTube was the sponsor
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: of this event.
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  Speaker 5: So.
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  Speaker 4: I wonder if this was in collaboration with YouTube in
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  Speaker 4: thinking of this creative way to also utilize YouTube and
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: how great it is. And I love YouTube and I
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: hope you're subscribed to Heather McDonald's Juicy Scoop and Juicy
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: Crimes here on YouTube. Please subscribe, share, like the whole thing,
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: leave a comment. So I watched the whole thing from
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: my house, streamed it and was very happy to just
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: crawl into bed after as many of you did. And
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  Speaker 4: I still love Justin. I thought it was unique and different.
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: And obviously it's an hour and a half show. He
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  Speaker 4: can't play every song. He was smart to do his
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: new stuff. And, but it was probably, I think like
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  Speaker 4: 15 minutes too long scrolling on the Apple computer in
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  Speaker 4: his bedroom for the Coachella. I thought it was a
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: little too long, but other than that, it was still good.
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: Then we watched the masters and And just relaxed on Sunday,
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: had a great time.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: So for me, it was a perfect weekend. I loved it.
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: So speaking of Coachella and influencers and all that, there
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: is a juicy little thing going on with Alex Cooper
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: of Caller Daddy and Alex Earle, who's like the number
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: one influencer. They joined forces. Well, rather, Alex Cooper kind
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: of took Alex Earle under her wing. And it was like, oh,
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: this is really smart. She's not threatened by this new blonde, Alex.
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: and she gave her a podcast under her network. Something
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: happened and they ended it. And neither of them really
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: fuck with each other. They don't talk about each other.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: They don't, you know, do anything together. But there's always like, wow,
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: what happened with that podcast? I have speculated that maybe
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: the podcast, the art of podcasting, as you will, might
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: just not have been for Alex Earle. She makes so
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: much money as a fashion beauty influencer. That's what people
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: are attracted to, seeing her get ready with her videos
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: and stuff. Maybe talking for an hour and interviewing somebody
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: or whatever that show was just wasn't for her. And
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: she wasn't willing to put in the work for something
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: that financially wasn't worth it.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: That's one theory.
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: But recently, Alex Earle started to repost negative videos about
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: Alex Cooper and like comments that were negative. And it
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: all got back to Alex Cooper. So today she spoke.
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: of Call Her Daddy. Alex Cooper's like, bring some receipts.
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: Tell me, stop hinting. If you really have a problem
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: with me, put it out there because I am sick
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: of this shit. And I would just like, so I
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: thought that was pretty juicy. And then of course, Dave
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: Portnoy of Barstool Studios, of Barstool Sports gets involved. And
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: he said- He's like real gossipy. He's like basically like
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: a character in Mean Girls. And he comes out and
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: he's like, well, what I heard was their friendship broke
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: up over the Carl's Jr.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: Commercial. Alex Cooper wanted to do the Carl's Jr.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Commercial.
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  Speaker 4: They shared a publicist who's a female. And in fact,
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: Alex Earl got the Carl's Jr.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: Commercial.
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: You know, Paris Hilton did it once where you're like
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: hot and skinny and you're eating a big like messy burger.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: Is that really Alex Cooper?
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: She's, you know, pretty podcaster, but she's not necessarily, and
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: she's thin, but she's not necessarily the way Alex Earl
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: is in her sexy outfits.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: So who knows if we'll ever know the truth.
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: And I am kind of surprised that Alex Cooper addressed it,
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: but I think it's good that she did because I
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: feel like there's a bit of a backlash towards Alex Cooper.
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: She's the elder Gen Z-er. Alex Earl is the newer
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: Gen Z-er. And people always want a story where they
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: think that an older, more successful woman fucked over a
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: new younger one. And sometimes there just isn't that story.
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: So who knows, but it was pretty juicy. And then
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: I went to bed with good news, finding out that
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: Britney Spears voluntarily went to rehab for substance abuse.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: And I think that is so great.
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: And I hope that she finds some peace and gets
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: healthy and it's good for her and the family. So
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: that is all great news. Now, for our very fun
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: Juicy interview, you're absolutely going to love it.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: I know it. I can't wait to hear your thoughts
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: on it. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop.
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: I am so excited to talk to my guest. First
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: time here, you will recognize him.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: He is a delight. He's funny. He's an actor. He's
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: a producer. He does all the things. He's a dad.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: Dan Horowitz. Well played.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: Okay, so excited.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: Oh, I'm so excited that you're here.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: You know, I love you. We know each other. Yes.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: And I've never gotten to sit on the couch.
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: I'm so glad that I just went raw-dogging it, DM'd you.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, you did.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: We didn't go through any of.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: The important ways. And I was like, yup.
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: I am so excited because my audience knows that I
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: have been obsessed.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: Here you are looking real cute.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: The comeback.
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: Dan Bukatynski is ready for his closeup. I have been
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: obsessed with the comeback since it started. I love that
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: you've been a writer producer and been on it as
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: a character this whole time. It's such a unique experience.
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: show and that it started in 2005. Yes. And right
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: from the start, when we discovered it, my husband and I,
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: we've been married a long time, like you have been
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: married to your husband for a long time.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: He was like, this is you. He's like, this is you.
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: Now, I don't know if you know that Lisa was
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: my teacher at the Groundlings.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: I did not know that.
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: And I immediately had like such a thing with her
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: because I grew up in Woodland Hills.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: She grew up in Tarzana. She went to Taft. Yeah,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: she did.
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: And that her story was You know, she was, you know,
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: this brilliant person.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: Their dad was a doctor. She was going to, like,
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: go that route.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: She went pre-med.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: And then her brother was friends with— John Lovett. John Lovett,
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: who was at the Groundlings. And she was like, I
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: think I could do this. And then I always thought
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: it was so interesting because she kind— Keenan Ivory Wayans
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: also was an engineering major.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: And I wrote White Chicks with him and worked on
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: his TV shows. And he would always, in writing the things, go,
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: the math of the joke, the math of the joke.
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: And so I was like, oh, that's really interesting that
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: Lisa has that part of the brain, as well as
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: being funny and creative, that is necessary, which people don't realize.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: There is an element of.
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: That that really is great once you kind of get
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: the math of the joke.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Lisa was pre-med all the way through.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: We overlapped in college. I went to Vassar College upstate
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: New York. And so did she. We did not know
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: each other in college because I was arty farty and
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: she was in the biology building. Amazing. And I was
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: doing a dance troupe off of the steps of the
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: science building, which is as close as I ever got
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: to the science building. And she was like, oh, those
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: annoying dancers. And that was me. And then we met
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: 10 years later on the set of my husband's movie,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: The Opposite of Sex, where Lisa starred. And she and
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: I connected. And we're like, you know, we both went
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: to school together. At the same time, and we became
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: friends right from there. It'll be 30 years next year.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, we've been friends for a very long time.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: But Lisa, her approach to character and comedy, and there's
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: so much intuition inside of her, but also she's an
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: incredibly smart, logical, rational, like both sides of Lisa's brain
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: are operating at 100% all the time. And it's fascinating
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: and inspiring to watch and to be a part of. And,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: you know, we've been business— we were producing partners for 15 years,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: but we also have been friends for almost 30. And
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: certainly as an acting partner on many things that we've
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: done together on screen, the comeback, very, very satisfying to
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: be on camera with her.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: It was— What's so interesting about her too is like,
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: you know, I just relate to her on so many
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: levels and I relate to this character too. And just
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: how she, you know, got married, married someone not in
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: the business.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: My husband's not in the business.
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: He eventually got into helping manage the podcast when that
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: was like a hit, but he was not an actor, comedian,
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: you know, wasn't trying to be.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: It helps.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: And was just so, what I also love is her
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: husband in the show is like a finance guy.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: So, But also in real life that she said in
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: an interview recently, like, well, I didn't have that going
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: on where both people are actors in the family and
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: how that can, you know, help a marriage or not
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: make a marriage or get you jobs. Or, you know,
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: she was always just sort of like, and she said, yeah.
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: And the success of Friends, the energy, she felt like
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: the entertainment energy was towards the other people and not
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: really her. And so it's so wonderful that she continue
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: to work in these great, unique, funny projects and just
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: keeps going and doing different things.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: But she's very balanced. She's very balanced.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: Yes, so balanced.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Her family, and we don't have to keep talking about Lisa,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: but the thing that's so inspiring about her is that,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: you know, she's very close to her parents. She was
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: very close to her family.
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Her siblings all live in Los Angeles. Her dad lives
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: in Los Angeles.
• 14:16
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: They all get together very often. Her family is very
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: important to her and it balances her out.
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: And in many ways, that was very important to Lisa
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: and Michael Patrick King when they created the comeback, it
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: was important that Valerie Cherish have a husband at home,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: have a nice house, and have a stable life that
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: was outside of the business. She does not need this.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: She wants it. She loves it.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: Valerie or Lisa?
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Valerie. Valerie is creatively driven and driven by attention and
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: driven by cameras and fame. Absolutely. But she doesn't need it.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: She comes home and she's gonna be just fine. And
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: that's a very important aspect of the comeback, because back
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: in 2005, people found it really difficult to watch that
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: this woman would face so many setbacks of, call it humiliation,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: call it embarrassment, call it failure, call it the stumbling
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: blocks that all of us go through in this business,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: and then to feel like, oh no, she's not gonna,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: you can't tell the story of that person who can't
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: pay their health insurance. You want it to feel like
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: something that they themselves have, and not because they need it.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: know about the drawer.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: The drawer. Just the one square before bed. Or two,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve a treat.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each week
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people who
• 16:05
  Speaker 5: have faced tremendous setbacks, and yet somehow have found a
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: Life is one long lesson of chaos.
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: I'm heading to the Emmys, and I have police complaints
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: filed against me.
• 16:18
  Speaker 6: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 16:21
  Speaker 6: what would you do if it was given back?
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: Where did that need come from where you thought that
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: He said, I have a work dad. I need a
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: home dad. What happens next? When I came in, he
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: started crying.
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: Everybody in life encounters hardships. What defines them is not
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: those hard moments that they go through.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: It's about what happens next.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: I decided to risk it all.
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: I realized how valuable every day was.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: You're worth the work.
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: Listen, Dara, I'm not going to pull punches.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: You can use your voice even if it's shaped.
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: Only one question matters. What happens next?
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: So question about, this is such a unique situation in
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: that it was 20 years ago.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: And was it just the one season 20 years ago?
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, we were canceled.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: So you were canceled. Okay, so when I was watching that.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: This is like the best cancellation story ever.
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: Because when I was watching it, I really, right off
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: the bat, said this is ahead of its time. Yeah.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: This is ahead of its time because the character was
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: a sitcom star who then gets a reality show.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: And as someone who has loved reality TV since like, MTV.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: You know, real world, real world and all that. Like
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: always loved it. Wanted to be on one.
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: And then when I was writing for Chelsea lately, I
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: was immediately like, I like, I remember where I was
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: when I saw an ad for orange County, real housewives
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: holding the orange. And I go, this is such a
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: good idea. Like, like I, you know, it was just like,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: Oh my God. So my husband and I are watching it.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: We're dying laughing.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: Cause he's like, this is you.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: And there was this one scene where they get the free, um, Explorer, whatever,
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: to go.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Drive to Palm Springs.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: And as he's driving, he's like, well, this does handle nicely.
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: The guy in the back pops up and is like,
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: can you say the.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: The Lincoln Navigator handles the road really nicely. You're going
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: to have to say Lincoln Navigator in front of each
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: of your sentences. And then he tucks back down again.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: So like, how many people are in that car?
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: Brilliant.
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: And it's like, I feel like maybe, I think at
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: that time, You know, it was a little too inside.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: It was, and it wasn't a lot of product placement
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: back then. I mean, it was early.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: And I think they were kind of like, what?
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: And then just other little things like they go to
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: the pause for explain and they fall asleep and she
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: wakes up and she forgets to have saved her lounge chair.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: And she like pulls open the drapes and he's naked
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: with his bare ass and all these kids are swimming.
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: And she's like, the day is rude.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: The day is rude.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: We've not done the, and I'm like, oh my God,
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: that's everything about it is me. Like, I'm just like,
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: And then it's just so great.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: It was ahead of its time in the sense that
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot of, the kind of reality that
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: had already been established were the competition shows, like Amazing Race,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: like Survivor. And there was this show, to be honest
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: with you, there was this show that Anna Nicole Smith
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: was doing on E! Yes! Where the cameras were following
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: this celebrity around her home and in her life. And Lisa,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: who had played a character in The Groundlings... That was
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: basically Valerie Cherish.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: Oh, I love that.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Pitched to Michael Patrick King over lunch in 2004. What if,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: like the Anna Nicole show, a camera crew is following
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Valerie Cherish around in her life? And Lisa would improvise
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: as Valerie Cherish. And the two of them started to
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: cook up this idea that we are living in a time,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: and this again, 2004, 2005. where the greatest threat to writers
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: of television at that time was the very notion of reality,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: of reality TV. And so that was just what the
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: theme of the story was. It was like, you're working
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: on a sitcom and But the only way you're allowed
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: to work on this sitcom is if you're also in
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: the reality show. And the way the writers and particularly
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: Pauly G, this showrunner, reacted to the fact that he's
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: being forced to be on a reality show is with
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: such rage. And we were canceled after that. And then.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: audiences found the comeback over the years.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: Which is also so great about streaming.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: We were on DVD, though.
• 20:31
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: Oh, on DVD.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Wow. They found it on DVD. There was no streaming
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: at that point.
• 20:35
  Speaker 6: Oh, my God.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: That's amazing. They were watching the comeback because they would
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: find it. Either HBO continued to play it, which they did,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: but also the DVD with all the DVD extras. I
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: highly recommend looking at them because that's the only place
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: they exist, those DVD extras. But then we had this
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: opportunity to maybe come back and do a season two
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: 10 years later. And in 2014, it was a very
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: different landscape in television. So suddenly the shows took on
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: this sort of time capsule feeling. We're catching up with
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Valerie Cherish now 10 years later. And now the threat
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: to broadcast television is cable. Premium cable is now going
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: to stomp out basic network television. And then people kept asking,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: will there ever be a third season of The Comeback?
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: And we were like, I don't know, we don't know.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: And finally, Lisa and Michael, who would have lunch every
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: year and talk about what do you think we could,
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: what do you think is going on in the life
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: of Valerie Cherish? And Lisa was like, it would be
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: so cool if we had seen her during the strike,
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: because to see someone like Valerie taking advantage of the
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: opportunities of the strike, and that led them to this,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: what if, forget about the strike, because the strike was
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: about A.I., what if Valerie gets offered the first ever
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: written sitcom written by AI? And the two of them
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: bled up and they were like, we have to do it.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: And they pitched it to HBO and they were like,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: if you're going to do it, you have to do
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: it right this minute. And Lisa and Michael wrote all
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: eight episodes and we wrapped in November and are on
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: the air in March.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: It's amazing because- I've talked, I've had this show for
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: 10 years. My audience is really great. And they're, you know,
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: a great demographic of women and men, but mostly women.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: And they're like, I've said, like, I've come across shows.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, I think this was written by AI. Like,
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: this is so freaking bad.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: And so then when people are like, Heather, the new
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: comeback is about AI. Like, you're going to die. And
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: so I.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: Love it because you guys go back a couple years
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: so that she can do, like, deal with the strike and.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: COVID, which just.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we dealt with that.
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: She gets the part of Roxy Hart in Chicago, which
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: I've also talked ad nauseum about how it was like
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: there's always– remember when they did this with Rizzo?
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Yes. When every sitcom star– It popped in. It was
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: like the revolving cast.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Of Rizzo and Grease.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Who's Rizzo in the revival of Grease. This week it's
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: going to be and next week it's going to be.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: Rosie O'Donnell, Brooke Shields.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: They all did it. And the same thing with Roxanne Chicago,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: and it's still that way.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: But now it's kind of like the reality star gets it.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: And just the fact that she was like, how the
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: fuck do I get out of it? And I've had
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: things in my life where I said yes to it.
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: My husband being a financial person will be like, why
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: would you do this? This makes no sense. And I'm like,
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: you are not an artist. You don't understand. Stand-ups don't
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: do gigs for the money.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: And I just want to do this. I just want
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: to do the stand-up thing again. And then I'm like,
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: oh my God. So when she's like, Well, why did
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: I do this? Like, why am I here?
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: What am I going to do? I can't quit. I
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: can't quit. I mean, I have a contract.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Why can't you quit? And then using the COVID excuse
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: with the, and I love.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Not just the COVID excuse. That he assisted. But the
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: notion that she left, she left that Broadway show because
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: she needed to stand side by side with the writers
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: who are in LA on the picket line. That is
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: classic Valerie.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: It was so funny because when Chelsea Lately started, I
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: was just a writer right from the start on it.
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: And then, you know, got on the panel and then
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: they kind of realized, oh, we could have a group
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: of writers that, you know, and we have our own
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: world around them. Anyway, but prior to that, I think
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: one of the reasons it was a hit is because
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: we were not Writers Guild. And there was a strike
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: at that time in 2007, 2018.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there was.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: And only one other writer and myself were Writers Guild.
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: And so our EP at the time walked into my
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: office and she said, Heather, Ted and I have spoken
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: and we want you to know that if you need
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: to leave and be with your comrades on the picket line,
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: that your job is safe when you return. And I go, um,
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: I haven't had a writer's guild job in like 10 years.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: Cause I was just like my first job since having kids.
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: And I go, so thank you, but I'm good.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: No, I'll be the story producer and whatever.
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: And, um, but it was exactly that thing.
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: Like, would you, I'm like, no. And then it was great.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: Cause then we were like the only game in town.
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: And I really do think that helped because everybody else
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: couldn't do it. And we were still doing like funny things.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: And, um, and then, so I love that whole thing.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: That's just, Hilarious.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: It was her out. It was her out for sure.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: And then we cut, you know, this is an episode
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: one of our new season, but we catch up with
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: the present. Yes. And she, like she would, she's got
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: a podcast, Cherish the Time. I love. And she's taking
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: advantage of whatever opportunities are coming her way. A little
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: indie movie, one day on an indie movie, and her podcast.
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: But thank you for, I love podcast humor. I have
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: been doing this for a long time.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, you have.
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: And I started it for the exact same reasons that
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: Valerie did. It's after Chelsea Lately ended. I had two
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: different pilots at TLC that aired but didn't go further
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: after six episodes. And I, just like Valerie said, well,
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: I guess it's time for a podcast. And I made
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: $ 250 a month the first year. I just did it
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: to let people know I was at the chuckle hut wherever.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: And, you know, then it became a thing. And then
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: it was like, oh, everyone can have one.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you were doing it early. Right.
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: So I was doing it early. But I loved how,
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: of course, she would have it. And then kind of realized, like, well,
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: it doesn't matter. This isn't supposed to be professional. But
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: then realizing, like, wow, we've talked a long time. And Patience,
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: the brilliantly acted.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Ella Stiller. Amazing.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: Cute, like, Gen Z-er is like... You're at 14 minutes.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: What else is on the list?
• 26:36
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: What else?
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Peach lipstick. It's one of my favorite lines in the
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: whole thing. She's like, well, let's look at the list
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: of hot topics. Peach lipstick. And then she was like,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: you know what? We're at 42 minutes. She's like, okay, good, good.
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: Hurry.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Her cans are off of her face fast enough.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: Because there's so many people that have started podcasts and
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: stuff that did it during the COVID time and someone
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: convinced them.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: You know, I can get you this deal.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: She's just doing it, though, and it's not really generating
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: a lot. And the reason why we set the table
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: that way, or the way that Michael and Lisa set
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: the table that way, is so that when Billy walks
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: into her condo and says, are you ready to hear
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: incredible news?
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Which is your character.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: My character, Billy. Are you ready? Because you have been
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: offered the starring role. I mean, I don't even say
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: that yet. You've been offered a role in... And the
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: scene got cut down a little bit. There was a
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: moment there where I was showing her how much they
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: were offering her, how much money. And she looked at it.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: She's like, for the whole thing? I'm like, no, per episode.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, my head's going to explode because it's such
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: good news. Did Billy check to see if the unions
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: are okay with it?
• 27:40
  Speaker 6: No.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Did Billy check to see AI, meaning what? Will there
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: be any writers on it? He doesn't care. The bottom
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: line is Billy got an offer. It doesn't matter. It's
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: for a lot of money. And it's the first window
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: into the fact that Billy is just– Chasing opportunity. This
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: is a chance to be an executive producer on a show.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: And who cares? And I'm sure it's legal or else
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: they wouldn't be doing it, which is the dumbest thing
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: you could possibly say. And therein launches the big idea
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: that Michael and Lisa were thinking, if we're going to
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: do another season, we better be doing one that is
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: a big idea that feels like a big threat right now,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: which it does. And it's relevant and it's hilarious.
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: It is so hilarious. And then, so the husband, the
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: finance husband comes and he is also going to quit
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: his job to do a reality show.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Called- He's left his job for reasons that have not
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: come out yet, which when you watch the rest of
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: the season will unfold. But he told a joke and
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: he was- He was asked to step.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: And she's like, well, that was in 2020. Jokes were
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: illegal then.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Jokes were illegal then. That was back when jokes were illegal.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: And it's so true, and it's so funny, and it's
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: just so good.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: And he's trying to figure out, what do I do now?
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: And she's like, he's got a reality show.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: Finance bros, dudes. And she's like, he's our own Mauricio.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: There's just so many funny.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: References.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Oh my God, you guys are so good.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Everyone's going to love it. You're so good.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: Okay, so what I love about your character is.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: even though you're the manager, we all know, and we've
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: all had someone either being our assistant or our agent
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: or our manager or something along the way that actually
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: want to be.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: In front of the camera. You know, my first publicist,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I came out with a book in 2012 called Does
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: This Baby Make Me Look Straight? Oh, that is so good.
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Which was my kind of chronicle, comedic chronicling of how
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I became a dad, how my husband and I became parents.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: But when I was promoting the book, I got booked
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: on The Talk. And my, I had fired my publicist,
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: but he insisted on coming anyway. And so he was
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: in my, in my dressing room and I was like,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: this is so awkward. I mean, what are you doing here?
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're not my publicist anymore. And before I
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: could literally blink and turn my head, he was on
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: stage Julie Chen Moonves was sort of like the lead host.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: And before I could literally turn or get mic'd up,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: this publicist was chatting with her about getting himself on
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: the talk. As like what?
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: To talk hot topics or Hollywood scoop?
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Hollywood scoop. His job as a publicist in Hollywood PR,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: like I could be a great guest. He was there
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: to pitch himself on the show on the day that
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: I was there for the first time on a talk show.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: to promote my book. And I was like, oh my God,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: like at every turn, everyone is looking for their moment.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: So there is a lot of that in Billy this season.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: Had you thought about that in creating this character and
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: where the character's going?
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Listen, it was a character that Michael and Lisa created
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: back in 2025 when Lisa needed a publicist. She was
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: desperate for a publicist. And she says to Mickey, her
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: gay hairdresser back in 2005, I gotta get a gay Mickey.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I gotta get a gay. And so she meets Billy
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: and Billy is this kid, this young guy who's not
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: that young, you know, who had just been passed over
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: for a promotion by a very big firm and was
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: pissed off about it and shoves everybody in season one.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: You see this rage in Billy. He's unable to deal
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: with conflict. And so he shoves anybody who doesn't give
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: him what he wants. You don't quite get a hint
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: that he's kind of after a certain amount of credit
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: for himself in season two. He's like throws the phone
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: and throws a hissy fit because, you know, someone else
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: is trying to do his job better than he can.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: And so he's self-hating and kind of, he's got inner demons,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: but only this season now, 20 years later, are you
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: seeing that he's looking for opportunity for Valerie? He's been
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: a really good manager and now he wants to be
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: a producing partner, but what he's after for himself is,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: doesn't really come to play until like last night's episode
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: where suddenly he's, he's literally being filmed for varieties 50
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: over 50.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: 50 under 50.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: No, 50 over 50. Oh, it's 50 over 50. It
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: doesn't even exist. But one could, can you imagine that
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: existing a hundred percent? So he's got, he's on a
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: photo shoot. Valerie needs him. She's in a total code red.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: And he's like, I'm there for you. As soon as
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: I'm done with my, single photo shoot and my group
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: photo shoot for Variety's 50 Over 50.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: And my also favorite is that he is using her
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: social media person for himself now.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And he says the words that says everything you
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: need to know about him and most of the planet.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: I am suicidal for some solo press. Like if you
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: don't get out of the frame, they're just going to
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: run with a photo of you in it. So step away. Right. Exactly.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: It's my turn.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: Let's go right here. It's my turn.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: And this is a, yeah, this is in town and country. This,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: this just came out this piece and it's really just, um,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: it's really about the fact that Billy is this opportunist.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: I also love that.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: Remember when also in, in this business, where all of
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: a sudden managers and agents were like, we are going
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: to produce it too.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: They became executive producers.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: But then you don't have to pay commissions.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: But then when you're trying to sell shows, it would like,
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: I mean, I've had it fuck up a deal.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: And I was like, wait a minute, I didn't need this.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Look, to be fair, some managers became among the best
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: EPs and producers in town. it's fewer and far between. Yeah.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: It became a foregone conclusion that your management company became
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: the production company that made, you know, anonymous content has
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: made a lot of television. Yeah. There are great management
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: companies that became great production companies. Right.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: But not every manager knows how to be a producer.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: And Billy is a manager who's been given the title
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: of executive producer and is running with it. In episode two,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: he's had hats made that say executive producer on them.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: What the hell? Like, are you kidding? How much did
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: that cost? And why would you do that?
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: It's just so brilliantly directed that she's like, I don't
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: think we should do it. And then they do the
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: photo and dresses the actual executive producer.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: We're taking a picture. It's so embarrassing. The truth of
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: the matter is it really is saying something much larger
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: about society in general, which Lisa said recently in an interview.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: And it's what our season's about a little bit. Everybody,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: everybody has become Valerie Cherish. We now live in a
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: world where you don't need a reality crew to control
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: your narrative. You've got one of these. Everyone's got a
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: phone and Instagram and TikTok, and you can tell your
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: story and be the star of your own story. And
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: the thirst that people have for that kind of attention
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: It exists in the palm of our hands.
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: I also love, and I think this is really relatable
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: to any business, is you go to meet, she's going
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: to do the show.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: She's excited.
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: You bring her for this first meeting and you think
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: you're going to walk into a room of actual people.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: And no, it's just the.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: Screen with the Zoom. 30 people on the Zoom in
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: a conference room with no one else there.
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: And I also love that they show all the faces.
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: And when they're like, hi, Valerie. And then you can
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: spot like the three very effeminate gay guys that have
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: been watching her since they were 12.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: Correct. And they're like, hey, girl.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, oh, I just this is so funny.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: It's like there's all those subtle things that you guys say.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: thought of.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: I just am like, it's so good. Michael Patrick King,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: it was such an incredible director. The two of them,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: the chemistry between Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King when
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: they're writing the comeback is just magical. Like, two people
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: who just lock in and can really tell the world
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: of a story, the problems and the challenges of Valerie Cherish.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: And also... make every other character in her orbit real people.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: And when Michael was directing, even those background artists to
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: be some of the people on that Zoom, he gave
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: every single one of them a situation, an environment. Here's
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: the person you are at work. Think about what your
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: office looks like. He gave everybody something to actually play.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: And so the world of that Zoom feels full because
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: it was... It was just so relatable.
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: And then it ends and then the guy... was actually
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: down the hall, which I literally had that happen.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: I had a meeting.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: I had a meeting and I was like, oh, the
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: people are in New York? And they're like, no, but
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: they're just going to do it on Zoom. And I'm like,
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: but I had to drive an hour and a half
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: to get to Netflix.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: It's unbelievable.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: I know. I once pitched at, I think it might've
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: been one of the major platforms that At the building
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: of their platform. And the executives who were employees of
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: that platform joined me via Zoom. I guess from home.
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: And also, I just think that is just so cheesy
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: and real when they're like, how do we get in
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: the Valerie Cherish business?
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: Like, I totally remember people saying that to me, and
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm a business.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: Like just, I was like, what?
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Wow. Blowing smoke a little bit. And it helps. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: Like, or you're like, you know, deciding between agents or whatever.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: And it's like, well, it, you know, Lisa got Emmy
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: nominated for the first season and the second season and,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: and it never went her way, but, but for the comeback,
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: at least it's got an Emmy for friends, but, but
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: for the comeback and this has been a, you know,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: this is the, I think the only show in the
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: history of television that took 22 years to make three seasons.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: And it really allowed us to tell these very big
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: stories 10 years apart, kind of like a time capsule
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: of our business. But she channels this incredibly three-dimensional character
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: who's emotional, hilarious, outlandish, is trying to control her narrative,
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: but also I believe is a heroic figure. I mean,
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Valerie Cherish has a way of flipping the switch to
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: the positive, even when she's being kicked in the teeth.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: And would that we all have that ability to turn
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: it around when it's really not good.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: And like the woman of a certain age, like even
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: when she said, when she's like, I left you a
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: voice message, you're like, voice message?
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: Why don't you just leave a voice note? All right, whatever.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: There's so many.
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: Times where I like, you know, I remember a few
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: years ago or something, I had this assistant working for
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: me and I'm like, no, I called them.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: And she's like, called them?
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: That's like pretty- You left a message on the machine?
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: She's like, that's pretty aggressive.
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, oh, actually calling someone is like, see,
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: it's like I've been attacked. But I'm like, no, I
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: just think it's like sometimes people misinterpret the text. So
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: I'm just like, and also like you can't, now I
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: always call because I'm like, you see these like scandals
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: where someone has screen grabbed the text.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: And you're like, I'd just rather call you because you
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: can't use that.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: But that's why people like a voice memo because they're
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: not going to listen to a whole answering machine message,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: not answering machine, voicemail message. How old am I? But
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: the idea that Billy's like, don't send me a text
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: or an email. Why would I answer any of the emails? Well,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: maybe because you're an executive producer on the show. Have
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: you read any of the scripts?
• 39:02
  Speaker 6: No.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: So it's like, just send me a voice memo. And
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: what he does at the end of the episode last
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: night is so egregious. It's so egregious and so awful
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: that it's going to have repercussions for a bit. But,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: you know, to literally record Valerie giving me what she
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: thinks is going to be the words that I should
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: use when I talk to the network. And he just
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: sends her voice memo to them.
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: It's so funny and I love it. We could talk
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: about it forever and I'm so excited. that there's still
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: like four episodes left that I can enjoy and milk
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: out and I love that it's once a week.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: Please. please, I don't want to binge. I don't want
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: to binge.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: No, it really gives you something to look forward to.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, I have so few things to look forward to.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: And they really did. I said, you know, Lisa and
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Michael really came up with an arc for every one
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: of the characters in the orbit of Valerie Cherish. And
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Billy is no exception. I mean, Billy really takes this
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: opportunity and something starts to emerge in him that the
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: audience can track happening for the whole season. And then
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: there's an unbelievable transformation Well, there's an unbelievable thing that
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: happens in the last two episodes.
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited, and I could talk about this forever.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: I do want to talk a little bit about your
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: other big roles that you had, you know, in Scandal.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Scandal, yep.
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: Again, ahead of its time.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: It was an amazing moment in time for two reasons.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: One— And I remember reading the pilot. Shonda Rhimes wrote
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: this pilot that was this unbelievable, I call it genre
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: bending because it was a soap opera, but it took
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: place in D.C. and was about politics. And yet it
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: was also about underground torture and the dark side of D.C.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: and this fixer, this Washington, D.C. sort of scandal fixer
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: that every week was also a procedural, like there was
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: a case every week that would wrap itself up. Of course,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: the soap of the show kind of took over.
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: But I was really lucky at that time. I had
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: just written my book about my kids, about becoming a dad.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: And Shonda and I met. I had done an episode
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: of Grey's Anatomy. And I was meeting to be a
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: writer on Grey's Anatomy. And they hired me to play
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: the husband of the chief of staff on Scandal and
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: who really wanted a baby more than anything in the world,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: this writer. So there was a lot about me as
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: a person that kind of went into playing James on Scandal,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: the writer who wanted to be a dad.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: You know, that's so interesting because I don't know if
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: you watched that doc about this writer that was on
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: Grey's Anatomy. that lied about cancer and all that? Did
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: you know anything about that?
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: Well, when I left the writing staff of Grey's Anatomy,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: she came in.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: But I will tell you that there's.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: A story in my book that I mentioned before that
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: is about how Don and I met. And this is
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: a true story.
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: Your husband.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: My husband, Don Roose, who I met years and years
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: and years ago. And when I met him, he was
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: taking care of his assistant who had cancer. And so
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: part of the circle of friends that I met when
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: I met Don and in the first 10 months of
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: our dating, so much of our time was about caretaking
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: this person who was going through chemo and lost her
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: hair and was going in for treatments and had a
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: shunt in her chest and was incontinent and we were
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: buying her diapers and we were visiting her. It was
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: really ugly, the first 10 months of my dating Don.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: but it had a very similar ending.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Wait, stop.
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: The assistant was also not being truthful about her illness?
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: She was not being truthful about her illness. And the
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: discovery of that fact and what it did and the
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: repercussions of it, I chronicle in a chapter of my book,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: because it was so important to how I met Dawn.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was the first year of our dating,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: and she was very threatened by my presence there. And
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: so her cancer kept rearing its ugly head because it
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: was a way of getting his attention. So cut to
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: years and years later, right? 15 years later, maybe more.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, 20 years later, maybe. And I hear this
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: story about this woman who is lying about her own
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: cancer and using it in the writer's room as a
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: way of pitching herself as a writer, as a way
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: of pitching stories for Grey's Anatomy.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Which made sense.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Which made sense. and the way in which she was
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: found out. And it became a documentary, I think it's
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: on Hulu still.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: It was fascinating.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: It's fascinating.
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: Because as someone who's been in a writer's room and
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: how you do use a lot.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: Of your own stories.
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, you're there because you're... And, you know, you
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: were like, yeah, let's use that, let's, you know... And
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: then also I'm just, I'm fascinated by grifters, but the
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: lying about cancer grift is so horrific.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: It crosses such a huge line. Well, it's a kind
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: of emotional abuse that is preying on the empathy and
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: the sympathy of others. And also in our case, I mean,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: she was, there was so much money being spent.
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: And most of the times it does turn out to
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: be a money grift because it's you're getting money from
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: the church or the charity.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: Or the lady down the street or your boss.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: A lot of this is about attention. A lot of
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: this is about trying.
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: Sometimes it does turn into money. And that's when it
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: becomes a crime. If there is no money, then you
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: were just a liar.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:27
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: You can be the victim of that kind of emotional
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: abuse and there's no, there's no repercussion legally. The only
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: way we were able to put this particular person in jail,
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: which we did was because we had records of how
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: much money we had spent on her. And we were
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: able to turn it into a felony.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: And this was his assistant.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: This was someone who began as his assistant on a
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: movie he was doing with Michelle Pfeiffer. And, you know.
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm also fascinated by the world of a
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: Hollywood assistant.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: And they, I mean, the, it's just, it's, the old
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: version is all about Eve.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: Which I've talked about this movie because my mom was like,
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: this is such a good movie, which is more the understudy.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: Who acts like she's a fan.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: You know, becomes the understudy and then eventually becomes the woman.
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: In fact, stealing her husband and everything. It's about ambition
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: that when you want it.
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: But it's the ambition.
• 45:16
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: It's the ambition, which, and it's like such a hard
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: thing because whether it's like, you know, one of those
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: is like Rachel Zoe and Brad, you know, and she's
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: tried to, you know, not say anything and he's gone
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: on his way and been successful all But the audience
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: is so fascinated by it because we watch them work
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: together and we love them together. So we're like, well,
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: why couldn't you stay together forever? And it's like, well,
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: nobody's meant to be the assistant forever.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: This is why it's tricky. Everyone should use their earlier
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: experiences to help them grow and then try to leave
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: the nest and go do the next thing. No one
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: can blame someone for doing that. But when you are...
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: using and manipulating the leverage of the person you work
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: for in order to step over steps or you're making
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: up a story or you're abusing your privilege or your
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: access in order to get through the door for something
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: that you're ambitious for. That's when it becomes really tricky.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: And in show business, the lines are so blurred. Your assistants,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: a great assistant is an amazing thing, but the access
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: they have and the proximity they have and Right.
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: And then when you find out that they have been deceptive,
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: it's truly like being cheated on.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent. It's a betrayal. That's huge.
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: You're like, what?
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: Like, I took you on a trip.
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: I did this and that.
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: I met everyone in your family. And then you turn
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: around within months and. and say or film a TikTok
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: about me or do this awful thing.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: Like, what?
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: I know. It's why NDAs are so important.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: But even then.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: But even then.
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: What are you going to do?
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: It's still a betrayal.
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: Right, because then it's like, are you really going to
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: go after this person?
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: And spend a fortune.
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: And that's 30 years younger than you.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: So now you look like the, you know, curmudgeon-y, you know,
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: Gen Xer going after the Gen Zer.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: It doesn't pay off for them, though. By the way,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: anybody out there thinking this all sounds like a good
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: idea— Here's the thing. At the end of the day,
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: it doesn't pay off because really you want to have
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: the goods. When you get an opportunity that then helps
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: you grow and inspires you to the next step, the
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: only thing that's going to happen is a door is
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: going to open and whatever you have, whether it's a
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: script or your acting talent or your singing talent or
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: whatever it is that you're bringing to the next thing,
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: that door that opens, you have to have it. The
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: talent needs to be there to show.
• 47:36
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: Whenever, you know, when they say, oh, you were lucky,
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: it's like, I think this is the expression. No luck
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: is where preparation meets opportunity.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: So sometimes the opportunity comes too soon and it's not
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: going to work out.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: No, it's lucky.
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: You know, it's, you have to see the opportunity, but
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: also be ready to handle it correctly.
• 47:53
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Luck plays a role in what doors happen to open
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: when you're standing in front of them.
• 47:58
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: But once you walk through the threshold, luck has nothing
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: to do with it anymore.
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: You better have the goods.
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: You better be talented, be smart, be hardworking and all that. So, um,
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: So you guys fell in love.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: And how old were you.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: When you— You know, we did— it wasn't—it took a little bit,
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: I have to say. Like, one of the reasons I
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: think we've been together for 33 years is because it
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: wasn't fast. We met and we immediately got along. And
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Don's 10 years older than I am, and I was
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: in my 20s. So I was in kind of a
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: different place. He was coming out of a relationship that
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: he had been in for a while. And I was
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: really in no position to want to be with someone
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: who was as well established as he was. I was
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: working in the box office of a theater in Beverly Hills.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: My group of friends, we were all aspiring. We were
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: all working minimum wage. We were all sort of actors, writers,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: musicians trying to get a gig. And he had just
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: sold a movie. He was at the top of his
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: game as a screenwriter. And that was really off. It
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: wasn't off-putting, but it was not really. We were not
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: at the same place. But we got along so well
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: and we made each other laugh. And so we just
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: kept landing as much as both of us. He was like,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: I don't want to date someone 10 years younger. I
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: certainly don't want to date an actor. So this is
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: never going to work.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: Nobody wants to date an actor.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: No one wants to date an actor. I wouldn't want
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: to date me, by the way. I don't blame him.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: It was doomed from the start. I was like, yeah,
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: this guy is way more established than I am. And
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: he's just coming out of a marriage. And this thing
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: will be over by Christmas.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: Now, was he married to another man?
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: He was in a long-term relationship. And they had just
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: split up. And I was like, this won't last until Christmas. And,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: you know, Valentine's Day, that next year, we were still together.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: And it really, we put the time in to really
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: get to know each other and become friends and have
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: a foundation for our relationship. And I think it's one
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: of the reasons why we've had staying power for 33 years.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: We didn't have kids for 10 years. So we had
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: established ourselves as a couple before we even thought about
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: adopting our kids.
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: And as a couple, you know, at that time, gay
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: marriage wasn't legal when you first got together.
• 50:10
  Speaker 6: No.
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: Though there were many, there were many long-term couples and
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: they were parents.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: And Don wasn't into marriage. He was like, I don't
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: even like the whole idea of marriage. It's just like, what's,
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: I don't think that we should put a bunch of all,
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: put everyone together in a giant room to force ourselves
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: to commit to each other in public as a way
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: of coercing. He, Don had a kind of more romantic
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: view of it all. It's like, Every day should be
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: a decision that you make to stay with that person
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: for that day. And the next day is another day
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: and the next day is another day. And at any
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: point when it's not working or you don't want to
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: be there anymore, there should be a feeling that you
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: could move on. And I've always loved that idea where
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: like every day. That forever isn't really something that you
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: can commit to on a day. You can commit to
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: today and then you can commit to the next day.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: And then you look back. Forever is something you look
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: back on and realize that what you've done is stayed
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: together for years and years and years of today's.
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: You guys did get to a place where you could
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: get married legally.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: Correct. 2008, we had already had a kid. We adopted
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: our daughter.
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: OK, so you did adoption. How did you decide on
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: adoption versus surrogacy?
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of pressure to do surrogacy. Like
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: all the gays that we knew were were meeting with
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: surrogates and going that route. And Don did not feel
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: comfortable given the number. And he was right. Given the
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: number of of children who need homes and babies that
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: are being carried by by birth moms who don't have
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: the means or. whether physical, mental, emotional, or financial means
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: to be parents. There's such an opportunity to become a
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: parent of an existing soul rather than create one. And, um,
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: and Don really wanted to go the route of adoption
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: and I just wanted to be a dad. So it
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: didn't make a difference to me.
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: So did you use like a lawyer?
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: We had a lawyer who connected us to a birth mom.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: I tell this entire story and does this baby make me,
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: make me look straight because we, uh, we went down
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: a path that didn't work out.
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: And then we, so I was just going to ask,
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: that's always really, it's a real lifetime movie, sad lifetime storyline. Um,
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: of where you fall in love with this young mother
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: and she's chosen you and everything's great and you buy
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: her a car and you do this and you get
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: the house ready and then either it was a scam
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: or she changes her mind or whatever.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, it didn't work out with the first one and
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: then pretty quickly after we met the birth mom that
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: is the birth mom of both of our daughter and
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: then two years later our son. Oh, okay. And she
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: had had twins to begin with. So my kids have
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: biological siblings. And have they met them?
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: Every other year we travel to Wisconsin and hang out
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: with the bio family.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: Oh, really?
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: It's a very open thing. There's still a lot of
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: complicated feelings around all of it for every side.
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: But there's a lot of love there, too. And my
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: kids Snapchat with their birth mom. And it's an open thing.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: And I think that's been a good thing for them.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: And when she, you know, was choosing a family, obviously
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: she was okay.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: She picked us because of Queer Eye. And then I
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: became friends with the guys who created Queer Eye. And
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: I was like, you know, that we're dads because of
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: your show. Because our birth mom thought that all those guys,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: I'll never forget it. She was, you know, very thick
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: Wisconsin accent. And she was like, you know, I think
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: you guys would make awesome, awesome dads. Because of all
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: those guys on Queer Eye. They all seemed like they'd
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: make awesome dads. So she wanted, and there's a phenomenon
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: a little bit. When you're a birth mom and you
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: sort of always want to be the only mom, even.
• 53:55
  Speaker 6: Just literally the only mom. So there is some comfort
• 53:59
  Speaker 6: sometimes in letting a same-sex couple, guys, be the adoptive parents.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I could see that.
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: And also just the safety that you feel when you
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: have gay friends, you know, gay men.
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: Versus when you have a platonic friendship with a guy
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: that's not gay.
• 54:18
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: There's a difference.
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: There's always going to be that kind of, oh, and,
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: you know, I always was like, yeah, having a... A
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: gay best friend whose man is just the greatest because
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: they still are men. They are still chivalrous. I'm saying
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: the word wrong, but they're still like opening the door
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: and helping you. They're all still gentlemen.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: But then and you can still laugh and you can
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: still talk about guys and have so much fun. But
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: then unlike a girlfriend, which is also a really special relationship.
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: And like a girlfriend, there's never like this like competition.
• 54:51
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: The only problem.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: No, the guys are just, you know, there's a comfort
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: in a straight woman having a gay best friend because
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: he's not trying to get into her pants.
• 54:59
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: Unless the pants would fit him.
• 55:01
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: In which case maybe he would if they're cute, you know.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: But no, there's like there's a whole element that is
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: removed from it.
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: That doesn't feel charged. And it kind of allows there
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: to be a kind of pureness to it. To the relationship.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: I think guys feel that way about their straight women friends, too.
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: I mean, the only thing, and I've said this before,
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: that I don't think a lot of women realize is
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: that we're oftentimes not the only one.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: But the love relationship with your gay best friend, even
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: though they.
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: You're not the only one.
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: You feel you are the only one. There's no way
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: that he could have the chemistry that he has with you.
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: With another woman.
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: There is a lot of that.
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: And once I accepted that, it's fine. But there's times
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: where I think other women might.
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: Be a little too confident in that.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: In their position in the pecking order. You know, I've
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: tried to write, I've written pilots for, I've been a
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: television writer in addition to being an actor for so
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: many years. And I've written so many pilots about that relationship,
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: about the relationship between either the gay guy and his
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: straight sister or the gay guy and his gay best friend.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: The gay guy and his straight best male friend.
• 56:22
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: These are dynamics that we don't always see dramatized. Will
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: and Grace, of course, did it so beautifully. But but
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: I love to see those the way in which those
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: relationships foster aspects of our lives that we don't normally
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: see on TV. And it's it's it's it's true.
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: So your kids are now 18 and 21.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: 18 and 21.
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: And so you were definitely, like, at the forefront of
• 56:49
  Speaker 4: the gay dad L.A. movement where you could be out
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: and about.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: It's not a secret. It's nothing weird.
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: Kids understand that their friend has two dads instead.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: Of a dad and a mom.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: It took a little bit, though.
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: Tell me, like, what were some of the challenges?
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: Back in the day when we were, you know, Don
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: and I would walk through an airport. There were a
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: lot of questions of, like, where's their mom? People would
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: come up to us.
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: Oh, like in other places.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: We would be traveling somewhere and they would assume that
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: they would try to figure out what's going on.
• 57:17
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: It wouldn't be as commonplace as it is now. Modern
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Family had not been a TV show.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, you're before Modern Family.
• 57:23
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: So the notion of two men having a baby on
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: a plane, in a restaurant, on a bus, on a boat.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: On a goat, with a mouse, in a house. All
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: those things did not exist yet. Or if they did,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: they were unique to Los Angeles and New York and
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: Chicago and San Francisco, the big cities. So oftentimes, and
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: I'd get really, Don would use it as an opportunity
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: because he's nicer than I am. To just educate. And
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: I would be annoyed. I'd be like, you know, none
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: of you, you know, why you just assume you assume
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: that this can't be my baby because I'm not a woman.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: You know, I was very defensive back in the day
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: because I felt confident that we're going to nurture this
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: baby and she's going to get fed and I'm going
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: to change her diapers. And why are you assuming that
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: we're holding it for the mom who's clearly in the restroom?
• 58:08
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: You know, like, where's the mom? Well, you know, a
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: lot of that question.
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: And did your daughter ever?
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: Like how did that come as she got older? Did
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: you ever feel like you needed to have a strong
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: woman in her life or no?
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I did. You know, we have a lot of
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: female friends, a lot around the house that godmothers and
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: my sister is an important, really important to me. She
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: lives on the East Coast, but Dawn's got two sisters
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: on the West Coast. And we had a nanny who
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: has been in our lives since the kids were born
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: and is still in their lives. and is the closest
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: woman to my kids in our family that, in addition
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: to all of our friends and sisters who were female
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: figures in their lives, that was really important. And guys,
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: straight guys in their lives that could actually throw a ball.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: I do a pretty good job, but not nearly what
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: others could do.
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: You know, when Jonah— I have a clearly straight, 6'3, 18-year-old
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: son who is nothing like me.
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: Nothing like me.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: And when did he come out of straight?
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: When did he come out of straight?
• 59:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: When he was born. I knew the minute— in diapers, there's
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: another chapter in my book called Bam Bam. Bam Bam.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: I used to call Jonah Bam Bam because I don't
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: know if you know the show. Like Flintstones. He would walk.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: He would bound down the hallway in his diaper in
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: a way that just made me feel like he was
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: going to steal my lunch money. You know what I mean?
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: Like I was like, this guy's going to bully me.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: I can just tell. And he's only two. I loved
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: him to death. And we were he was so cuddly
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: and so amazing. But he was like that kid. There's
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: no way. And, you know, it was just clear. It
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: was clear pretty early on when he was biting his
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: toast into the shape of a revolver that I was like,
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: this is not something I ever did.
• 59:54
  Speaker 4: I had a joke of my act that, you know,
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: you would study this thing, like, you know, introduce your
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: kids to, you know, Barbies or whatever. And I'm like, Yeah,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: but if you have a certain kind of boy, they
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 4: will beat the shit out of each other with the Barbies,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: and they will make a chicken, a gun.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: They'll make a gun out of a chicken nugget.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they will.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: Sometimes there would be chicken nuggets that had a shape
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: of a gun, and they'd get so excited.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: Because they'd notice it. Yeah, they would notice it. It's
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: in the DNA. You can't teach that. There's no way
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: we were teaching that.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: My son was driving.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: We were going out to La Quinta, and there was
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: a train going by, and I go, You know, that
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: was always so interesting that you and your brother as
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: little kids, Thomas the Train, were so into trains. I'm like,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: you know, my daughter that I raised, she's not my
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: biological daughter.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: She's my stepdaughter. She wasn't into the trains.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: I wasn't into the trains. Why a train?
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: It's nature. The nature nurture thing, I can tell you
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: right now because I've had a 21-year, 22-year experiment. It's
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: nature nurture. A hundred percent nurture zero in, in the battle,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: maybe not zero nurture is important, but nature is, there's
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: so much about my kids that is so that it
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: was predetermined by the DNA of their birth mom and
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: by generations before them.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: Um, and you know, we, we, uh, our kids are
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: our kids and I can't imagine anyone else being our kids.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: And obviously we love them as though they, as though
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: I birthed them out of my own loins. But, I
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: don't recognize myself in my kids. There's not a quality
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: or a gesture or a look in their eye that
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: reminds me of anything in my lineage. And same with Don.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: They're really unique individuals. By the way, every kid is.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: That's probably the biggest lesson I learned. The control and
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: power we think we have over our kids when they're one, two, three, four, five,
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: what they're going to eat, what you want them to eat,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: what you want them to be, where you want them
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: to go to school, what you want them to be
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: interested in. All this stuff that we want for them
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: is none of our business. And as it turns out,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: they are who they are and are going to emerge
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: as that regardless. How much Julie Andrews we played in
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: our house, my kid was going to eventually play, you know,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: whatever the video games. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: You know, um, You know, what's also interesting as they
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: get older, and I've said this, and then I saw, like,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: someone do a TikTok on it or whatever, is they're
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 4: not thinking about you the way we think about them. No.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: And they're never going to.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: No. And I have to thank God I have a
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: good memory. And I loved my parents very much and
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: wanted them to be, you know, happy. I didn't like
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 4: when they fought. They have passed and everything.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: But, like, when I was in college, I remember, like,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: they were realtors. And my dad, like, sends me this
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: big package of, like, photos. And so I'm only at SC. Like,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: I'm living in Woodland Hills.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: And he sends me the flyer of their latest listing. Like,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: isn't this great? You know?
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: And I was like, and what a bitch. Because the
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: sales of this house are paying for my USC.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: But I was kind of like, oh, my God, Dad,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: why are you sending me your real estate, like.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: Isn't that so funny?
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: And I'm just like, oh my God.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: And sometimes I just always have to remind myself that like,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: they're not like going, God, I hope mom's having a
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 4: really great day today.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: They take us for granted. And by the way, oddly enough,
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: it feels like absolute shit to be taken for granted.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: You so want them to want to be with you
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: and see you and know how your day was and
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: be proud of you when you do things that you
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: want them to be proud of. But they really, you
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: know that you have raised them to feel completely comfortable
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: and safe. because they take you for granted.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: That's what they say.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: They say like, it's when your kid behaves badly with you,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: but then it's on better behavior with even grandma or
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 4: somebody else. It's like, because they are so comfortable with you.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: That if they feel like a meltdown is coming, they
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 4: can have a meltdown.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. That's right. I mean, believe me, I,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: my kids treat me like absolute dirt most of the time.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: And I wonder why I don't have an HR office
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: at my, at my house so that I could, I
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: could file a claim almost every day. I would. Because
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: the ways in which I allow them to talk to
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: me is not really something that would fly in the
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: real world.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: But I always have to remember healthy attachment, healthy attachment,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: healthy attachment. Like because I read early on that like
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: their ability to feel like they can get angry and
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: let you know how they feel or tell you to
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: get out of the room or tell you that they
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: hate you because you know that they don't. The freedom
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: to tell you that they hate you is not something
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: that you need to squeeze out of them and say,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: don't ever speak to me like that again. It's like
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: it's actually a sign that they feel safe, that they
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: know that despite how they're feeling and what they're saying
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: to you, that they they know you'll never leave them.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: I saw this thing that they said, imagine if you
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: were to tell someone who's 25, hey. this person is
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: going to pay for the rest of your, for the
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 4: next 20 years. They're going to pay for your room,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 4: your board, your food. All you have to do is
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: return their call and be nice to them. Wouldn't you
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: do it? And everyone's like, yeah. And they're like, well,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: that was your parents. A hundred percent.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent. Like, how do you think all this
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: is happening? Do you not think that this is, it
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: just appears, you know, and I'm such a sucker. Like
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: I'm making my, my Jonah's 18. He can make his
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: own breakfast a hundred percent, but I, I love, for
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: whatever reason, I love making breakfast. And I have to
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: own it. For a long time I was like, oh
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: my God, the thanks I get. Like I was up
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: early making pancakes. Who asked me to make pancakes? Nobody.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: Who loves making pancakes?
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 6: Me.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: I was doing it for me and I continue to
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: do it for me.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: And there's a joy that comes out of a giant
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: man that you raised being fucking hungry.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: And eating.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: I agree with you. I totally agree with you. Because
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: I don't get it in other ways with him.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: Although I took him fishing this weekend and that should
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: have been a documentary in and of itself. But I mean, honestly,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: I'm so like literally I didn't want to touch the bait.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: It was so disgusting, like giant defrosted squid. And I
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: didn't have gloves. So I was using we were near
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: a park. And so, you know, those dispensers that give
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: you doggy bags out of the dispenser. I was using
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: two doggy bags around my hands trying to manipulate this
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: squid onto a hook. It was not a pretty picture.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: Did they know growing up?
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: Did they care that you guys were a big deal
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 4: in Hollywood?
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: I think that they're really not showbiz kids. I think
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: they like the perks. They like the perks. They love
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: meeting Lisa. They call her Aunt Lisa.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: Would you take them to the kid movie premieres and
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: stuff like that?
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: I did take them to some kid movie premieres along
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: the way. I would do that too. They were fine.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: They didn't really... My daughter doesn't love being photographed. My son,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: as it turns out now as he's older, kind of
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: likes a little bit of the glamour.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: I took him onto a red carpet for The Accountant 2,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: Ben Affleck's movie, last year. And he had the time
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: of his life. He was on that red carpet and
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: they were yelling, Jonah, Jonah, do you ever smile? And
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: he said, nope. And everyone laughed. And I posted it
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: on Instagram and he got such a kick out of it.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: So he's got a little bit of a showman inside
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: of him. My daughter is not that into it. And
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: they won't watch anything that I'm in. I mean, they
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: watched me in one episode of Superstore 25 times. I
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: don't know why they thought it was so funny. But
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: not an episode of Scandal, not an episode of– I
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: think they liked The Baker and the Beauty. I did
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: a serious– They're not watching the comeback. They're not watching–
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: they came to the comeback premiere with me, which was
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a fight. But I really– it
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: meant a lot to me. And I told them, you're
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: going to be doing this for me. And I would
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: love for you to join me. And they did. And
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: the comeback's not their cup of tea.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: But they came for me. And I was so, here's
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: the truth of it. I'm such a softie. Everything makes
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: me cry. Everything makes me cry. Me too. We stepped
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: onto the red carpet when the car arrived. And my
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: publicist met me. And I saw my kids and my
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: husband standing there waiting for me to join them for
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: the photo. And I burst into tears. I had to
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: step away and get myself together. And I was like,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: oh my God, I can't believe this is happening right
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: now with all these cameras like grabbing me. And I
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: got my act together. I got back on there and
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: my daughter put her arm around me and I felt
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: her rubbing my back to soothe me from my stress.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: And I almost lost it again. It was so sweet.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: It was so sweet. They were so supportive.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 4: Do you feel like in the gay community, like That
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: you guys being that you're kind of like the big
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 4: brothers to maybe like younger gay couples that are thinking
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 4: about like having kids or whatever. Have you, do you
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 4: think there's more of a shift going towards parenthood? Or
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 4: do you think just like, just like straight couples and women,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 4: a lot are choosing, I don't want to, I don't
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 4: have to be a parent. Like it was such like a,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 4: it was such a positive thing. And it was, I
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 4: feel like it was like pushed on them the way
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 4: it was pushed on. Like, it like my mom being
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 4: like i got the i got it at the church
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: you're gonna be married before you're 30 like the date
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: isn't that nice yes and i was like oh i
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: guess that is nice i guess i will be married
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 4: two weeks before i'm 30 like how weird now like
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 4: who cares if i got married at 31 or not
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: married at all good.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: For you that you waited that long my god yeah
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: do you think there was a i have noticed a
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: shift i'm actually noticing a little bit of a bounce
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: back at this point because i'm old enough now that
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: we were a little bit ahead of the curve.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: There were a few guys ahead of us that were
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: real role models to us.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: We were sort of the role models to many. Yeah. Um,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: It is now part of every conversation. There are so
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: many young gay guys in their 20s that know they
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: want marriage and a baby as part of the package
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: right up front. There are so many more 25 to
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: 30-year-old gay guys who are looking for partners for the
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: purposes of marriage and children in a way that did
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: not happen when I was 25, 100%. And now there's
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: even a little bit of a shift back a little
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: bit where it's like, I'm 25, but I kind of
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: Don't want to feel pressured just because I'm a gay
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: guy who may want to find my guy. Why do
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: I have to get married and why do I have
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: to have kids? You don't. Right.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 4: Like I kind of remember that, you know, like the
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 4: glory of like the greatest thing about two gay guys
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: is double income.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: No kids.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: You're smart. You're successful. You can have this great life.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: It sounds dreamy, doesn't it?
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: You can go and travel around.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: Oh my God.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: You can have a third and not get them pregnant.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: Something that a straight couple can't really fuck around with.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 4: Like a third dude or adult.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, bring someone else.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: Or you could have your fun.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: And no one's getting pregnant.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 5: No.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: You're not bringing another child.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 4: The biggest problem about heterosexual cheating is that the wife
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: could get pregnant with someone else's baby or this guy
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 4: could get a baby. So I'm like, it is kind
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: of a beautiful thing, but then you throw in kids
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: and family. So I'm like, oh, I wonder if more
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: gay guys aren't like, hey, you know, This lifestyle that
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 4: became like chic and cool before gay marriage was legal,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 4: like this is pretty good over here.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, just it's all age related. Like I
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: grew up at a time and I was coming out
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: of the closet at a time that was just post
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: the AIDS crisis. And so the notion of what it
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: means to be gay and say you're gay and even
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: sex and promiscuity, it was very hard to be sex
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: positive when I was coming out because we were on
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: the tail end of a horrible, horrible plague that. was
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: blamed on sex positivity and promiscuity. And so your approach
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: to sexuality was, my approach to sexuality was completely hindered
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: by having been 15 to 25 during that decade. Younger
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: people now, and the last five, six years of so
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: much sex positivity, and thankfully on the shoulders of those
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: who have made AIDS something that is treatable and is
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: you know, there are drugs now that people can take
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: so that it's not as much of a threat. The
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: notion of that being something that can liberate a gay
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: man from having to pick one partner or even a
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: couple from having to not have an open relationship and
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: have AIDS be the reason why they don't want to
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: go that route or STDs. The fact that there is
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: a move these days with young people towards sex positivity
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: is allows for people to make decisions that are more about,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: I want to enjoy my partner and enjoy sexuality and
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: enjoy freedom. I don't know if I want to bring
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: a child onto the planet. But there was a decade
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: in there where the fact that it was possible and
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: that gay marriage was possible and that adopting and surrogacy
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: and having children and all these what people call heteronormative
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: conventions were possible for young gay kids who always thought
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: of it as not even a possibility.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: Right, or that would be the sad thing of when
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: a child came out where the mother would be like,
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 4: I guess I'll never be a grandparent.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: I'll never be a grandparent. And that's 100% not the case.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 4: On gays that don't have kids, and then they're like, well,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 4: all your gay friends are, I have two people.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: That, yeah.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: Grandparents want their gay kids to give them grandkids. Yeah. 100%.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: Everybody wants to be a grandparent.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: We live in a different time now, and hopefully, ultimately,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: I think you only should be a parent if that's
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: something that you really, really want.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: And I think it's a gift to not want it.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: It's a gift to not want it.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: And to have done it and not be able to
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: take it back is really unfair.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: You know, I love my kids with everything and I
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: love that I became a parent.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 4: I'm sure with all your funny stories and your book,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 4: you must have wanted to this to be this could
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 4: be a show.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, your situation. I mean, I'm sure you've.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: Gone down to adapt. Yeah, I've had my book was
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: was optioned a couple of times. just like little stories
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: within it, because it's a series of stories, ways to
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: sort of tell this story in multiple ways for television.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: I've gone down that path.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, visually, it's just so easy to see. Like,
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: I literally can just.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: I see the kitchen. I agree with you.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: I see the da-da-da-da. I see the boy. I see
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: the girl.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: I had one that got very close very recently that
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: took three years to develop, and it was really about
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: Don and I.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: Don and me raising our teenage daughter and then her
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: relationship with the birth mom and how that gets integrated
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: into the life of an adopted kid. I'd never seen
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: that on television before. And I wrote a pilot that
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: I was really proud of. And it went down the
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: path for three years, different incarnations of it, and then
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: never happened again.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: I had a friend who was adopted, and she kind
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: of had a famous story. Sorry, I finished.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: No, no, no.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: I'm saying it didn't happen, and it was painful. It's
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: hard when you tell a story that personal that you
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: care that much about, and then it doesn't wind up
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: a show.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 4: I mean, and there's so many interesting elements, like you said,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 4: that haven't been played out. The adoptive child, the birth mother,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: the gay couple, the kid that's not like the gay couple,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 4: like has his own thing.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: But years ago, I had a friend, and she.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 4: found out she was adopted, didn't know for a big
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: part of her life, found out she was adopted, found
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 4: the adoptive parents who actually gave her up for adoption
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: and then did get married and had two more and
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 4: were still together. And then found them and brought them
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: out to L.A., And it was a little bit like
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 4: a modern-day Beverly Hillbilly type of thing with adoption and
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: then her being in Hollywood. And I thought it was
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 4: the freshest fish-out-of-water kind of story.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 4: And we went down the hole of pitching. It didn't
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 4: go either. But I still think that is just.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: It's a world we haven't seen.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: And it takes the stigma and all that away.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 4: The more that we see in media, the more it's like,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 4: this isn't a weird thing.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: No. And also talk about the trauma of it. Listen,
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: no matter how you slice it, no matter how much
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: love there is, moving both ways. The love that it
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: takes for someone to sacrifice their baby and want to
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: find a family to raise it. And the love that
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: that family gives to that child, no matter what, no
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: matter what, there are feelings attached to all of it.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: When you meet your birth mom and then you see
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: that years later, maybe she got pregnant too early in
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: her life and she wasn't settled and she couldn't possibly
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: have had the means emotionally, maturity-wise, financially at that time.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: And then 10 years later, she was able to do it.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: And then she had kids of her own. But the
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: kids who were placed in an adoption plan 10 years
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: earlier meet them and are like, oh, so you could
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: do it now, but you couldn't do it then. Yeah, totally.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: And no matter what, there are always feelings that have
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: to be. And I always feel like being able to
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: dramatize that, find the humor in that and also find
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: the humanity in that. And how do we talk about
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: it so that there's no shame involved and that no
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: one's getting their feelings hurt? yes, it's true. All that
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: love does exist. And yes, you were loved and yes,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: you were wanted, but yes, it must really hurt when
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: you think about what it must feel like to know
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: the facts that you were part of an adoption plan.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 4: And speaking of that, as, as a stepmother who, you know,
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 4: we were, had her right when she was born and
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 4: we did share with the mother and there's a whole
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 4: juicy story that I've talked about that in my books
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 4: and on my, my podcast and Patreon, but She's 26
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 4: now and doing great. And then, you know, and then
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 4: there comes a time where, you know, I'm raised, we're
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 4: raising her full time, you know, as, as, and she's
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 4: always called me moms and she was like, you know,
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 4: could say the words and people would always be so shocked.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 6: She's like, mom.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 4: You know, I'm like, yeah, like kids want to feel normal.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 4: And if everybody else in the house is calling me mom,
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 4: she's going to call me mom too. And it doesn't
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 4: take anything away from the biological mom. Like she's just
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 4: a kid. Like when people are like, we're doing a
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 4: court order that the kid can't call the new girlfriend mom.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 3: I'm like, the kid is four.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 4: Give them a fucking break.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 3: Like give them a fucking break.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: I was so threatened by the idea of referring to
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: the birth mom as mom because I'm like, oh, I
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: don't want it to be confusing. Like we're the two parents.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: We're the parents raising these kids. We're the parents. Two dads.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: But we should refer to the birth mom as the
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: birth mom because that's what she is. And let's be
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: really accurate about it. And your siblings, you know, that
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: are your birth siblings as opposed to, I mean, my
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: daughter is my son's birth sibling.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: But so are the two twins who live in Wisconsin. Like,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: they're also birth siblings. And, like, should we use the
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: words and what words should we use so that we
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: don't make it awkward? It's like the only thing that's
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: awkward is this conversation.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: There's nothing awkward about it.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 6: So true.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: And when my son started referring to his birth mom
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: as mom, and it's like, I just got a call
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: from mom. And he loves saying mom.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: And he loves referring to her as mom. And he
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: loves the fact that he has a mom. And she
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: lives where she lives. And he talks to her when
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: he talks to her. And it doesn't take away the
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: fact that we're his dads. To take your personal threat
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: away from it, it gives them so much freedom.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 3: And as the adult.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 4: I always say you have to be the adult in
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 4: the situation.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: And your feelings come last.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 4: Because so if you're the dad that who's broke up
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 4: with his wife and the teenage daughter is being a
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 4: little bitch and she missed your brunch date, you don't
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 4: call her and call her up and say you're being
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 4: a little pig, Alec Baldwin. Like you say, you know,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 4: you go, okay. We're going to make another plan. You're
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 4: going to suck up your feelings.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 4: Because when she gets to be 23, 24, she's going
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 4: to be very proud to say I'm having brunch with
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 4: my dad.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, she is.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 3: Because she's going to have a friend who doesn't have
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: a dad.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: Listen.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 4: And so it's like, just give it a minute and
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 4: just be the consistent thing.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: Be the parent.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: And it'll all work out, you know, because it's like
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: what I was saying about stepmom.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 4: It's like, you know, there's a million videos on TikTok
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 4: about a guy going to his stepfather.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 3: And dad, I changed my name to you. And everyone's crying.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 4: But the stepmother, I've joked about this in my act,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 4: is always like, who's this whore vixen?
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, really? You think as a stepmom, this
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 3: was a fun time to.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 4: marry, you know, some broken man that got divorced and
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 4: you took on the three kids and you're like constantly
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 4: looked at like you made it in the jacket.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: Like the stepmom gets absolutely no credit.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 4: And my goal in life is to change what Disney
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 4: did to the stepmom.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 3: To make it that it is, it isn't.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: It's not somebody who had a plan to steal a
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: human from, you know, it's always like a, like a.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 3: It's like this woman chose to love your dad.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 4: And he had kids and they're being, you know, I mean,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 4: granted there's bad stepdads, there's bad stepmothers, bad biological parents,
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 4: but like just the trajectory of it just always being
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 4: like this horrible negative thing where it's just like.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: When you feel threatened, your first thought almost always, I
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: read this in a book, is the child inside of
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: you reacting. Almost always, as a grown adult, when you're
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: feeling the rage and the threat and the need to
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: have the words be right and to tell your kids,
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: that first impulse is almost always the child within you
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: who is looking for a parent, who's also you, to
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: quiet them down. And it's really important to be the
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: parent to the kid inside you who's causing trouble and say, yo,
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: you know what? Take a deep breath. Take a time out.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: It's okay. It's going to be okay. And you parent
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: yourself so that you can parent your kid. Because otherwise
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: the kid inside you is parenting your kid.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 4: That should be your next book.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 3: Parent yourself so you can parent your kid. So you
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 3: can parent your kid.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: And we all do it. We're all victims of it.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: I always know that when I'm getting threatened in a
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: really big way, I'm like, the petulant kid inside of
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: me is getting threatened.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: And somebody's going to, who's going to parent that kid?
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: It's me. Right. I'm not going to call my mom
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: who's 86 and ask her to parent the child in me.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: It's on me to parent the kid who's reacting badly
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: And take a time out and deep breath and go
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: into this thing like the grownup you are so you
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: can be a parent. Yeah. But it's hard to learn
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: how to parent ourselves. Are you kidding? No one's doing it.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 4: I have so enjoyed talking to you and I love,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 4: and I remember your book. Like I forgot that you,
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 4: I remember I had that book and I forgot that
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 4: you were the author of Does This Baby Make Me
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 4: Look Straight?
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 3: Such a great title and so funny.
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: The answer is no, by the way.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 3: And where, where can they follow you?
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, follow me on Instagram at Dan Bukatynski.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: I have it right here.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: I think all my social is just basically my name.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 3: And they can still get the book?
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: The book is on Audible. I read it. I recommend
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: that way just because it, They're sort of written as
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: fun stories to be told, so you may as well
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: have me read them to you or on Amazon.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: And then, of course, the comeback is every Sunday on HBO.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 4: And if you've not seen it, I'm going to go
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 4: back and watch season one and two because I love it.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: So much I can't get enough. It's a good watch.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 3: But it's just so brilliant.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: And as of tomorrow, this movie I did called The
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: Highest Stakes is a Paramount movie that we did in
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: Bulgaria exactly a year ago. It's the wildest ride. Seth
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: Green and Kevin Dillon and myself. And it's a great cast.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: So it's a comedy. The only way I can describe
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: it is Willy Wonka meets The Shining. It is a dark,
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: comedic poker movie. Oh, love. That's also a wild ride.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: It's a wild ride.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: And what's it called again?
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: It's called The Highest Stakes.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: On Paramount.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: On Paramount. You can download it from Paramount as of tomorrow.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: Tonight's the premiere.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: That is so awesome. Congratulations.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: I had the best time. Thank you for coming.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I could talk to you forever.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 3: I'm going to hit you up.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: You're going to come back. I'm going to text you.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 4: We'll do like hot topics or some light gossipy stuff
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 4: now that we know your whole life story.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 3: Thank you, everyone.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 4: All right, you guys, and you know the juiciest stuff
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 4: when you're like, I wonder how Heather feels about this
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 4: or why isn't Heather mentioning this juicy thing about these
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 4: people in her life?
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: I do.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 4: It will be on Patreon, but only on Patreon. So
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 4: you go to heathermcdahl.net and you can listen if you're new.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 4: There's well over 1,100 episodes, always commercial free and all
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 4: the juiciest stuff. And it's every Friday as well as
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 4: bonus episodes over there.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 3: So check it out. Thank you, heathermcdahl.net.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: One reward. Endless choice.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: Skip the hassle, reward the easy way.