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Sustainability starts with you: lessons from the APM Conference 2025 · Project Podcast

• 0:09
  Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the childhood
• 0:11
  body for the project profession. My name is Emma Devita, editor
• 0:15
  of Project Journal and your host.
• 0:18
  Sustainability and project management remains a hot topic,
• 0:21
  but it can be hard to get to grips with.
• 0:24
  Depending on your specific role and level of seniority, you may
• 0:27
  feel unable to influence the sustainability of your projects.
• 0:31
  Perhaps issues like net zero and social inequality feel remote
• 0:34
  for your day-to-day working lives.
• 0:37
  In this episode, however, we're going to hear why sustainability
• 0:40
  isn't just a top down directive. It can be driven by project
• 0:43
  professionals at all levels through small meaningful actions
• 0:47
  that influence outcomes and contribute to long term positive
• 0:50
  change. Under the heading of Projects
• 0:52
  for a Better Future. The recent APM conference held
• 0:55
  in Coventry in mid June was a deep dive into sustainability.
• 1:00
  This episode brings together some of the highlights from the
• 1:02
  two day event. We'll hear top tips on the
• 1:05
  business benefits to be gained, how to build stronger ecosystems
• 1:09
  with stakeholders, and why sustainability success hinges on
• 1:12
  collaboration. To start with, let's hear from
• 1:21
  Aaron Katan, Sustainability Manager at the Nuclear
• 1:24
  Decommissioning Authority. He explored how the UN
• 1:27
  Sustainable Development Goals, or SDGS, can be used to
• 1:31
  strengthen project business cases.
• 1:33
  He explored sustainability related benefits such as
• 1:36
  reducing carbon, cutting costs and attracting talent, and
• 1:40
  stressed the need to integrate stakeholder views and
• 1:42
  sustainability into decision making.
• 1:46
  So in three months time, it's going to be almost 10 years
• 1:49
  since the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals
• 1:53
  were agreed and ratified by over 190 countries globally.
• 1:59
  Now on average, adults in the world, 75% of adults are aware
• 2:03
  of the SDGS Sustainable Development Goals.
• 2:06
  In the UK, that number is closer to 10%, which is pretty
• 2:11
  terrifying. And it's also really odd because
• 2:13
  we have some of the best institutions that can measure
• 2:17
  the stats behind the SDG. So we have the Office for
• 2:19
  National Statistics and we can measure how well we're doing.
• 2:23
  And despite the UK being a pivotal part in that agreement
• 2:26
  of the SDGS, we've still got a long way to go.
• 2:29
  And when I first came across the SDGS about six years ago, I
• 2:32
  thought they were these big lofty goals.
• 2:35
  How do they relate? But the more I've used them, the
• 2:38
  more I've realised how profound they can be in projects and for
• 2:42
  all of you as project professionals, how you can go
• 2:45
  away and use them. So that's what this is all
• 2:47
  about. How can we go from these goals
• 2:49
  at the country level into more company level aspirations?
• 2:54
  So let's look at the big picture.
• 2:56
  Every year the World Economic Forum puts out their Global Risk
• 2:59
  Survey and Global Risks Report, and it changes from year to
• 3:02
  year. But you can see from the next
• 3:05
  two to 10 years, there's a significant increase in risk
• 3:09
  categories around social, environmental, economic factors,
• 3:14
  often a big overlap with kind of the conventional pillars of
• 3:17
  sustainability. And there's an increasing number
• 3:20
  of them in that environmental and social aspect, inequality,
• 3:24
  climate change and so on. And these are businesses,
• 3:27
  business, risk perceptions. And the reality is that they're
• 3:31
  all very interlinked. You cannot look at each one in a
• 3:34
  silo. So things like extreme weather
• 3:37
  events have impacts on chronic health conditions, infectious
• 3:40
  diseases and so on. They all impact each other.
• 3:44
  And the size of the circle demonstrates the size of the
• 3:47
  risk. Societal polarisation is a big
• 3:50
  one and you might think as an organisation I don't have an
• 3:53
  impact on that, but you might have an impact on human rights,
• 3:56
  supply chain, economic opportunity, unemployment.
• 4:00
  So you might be able to have a bigger impact on some of these
• 4:02
  issues more than you think. And so this global risk survey
• 4:07
  and this map produced starts to give you an insight into how
• 4:10
  these systems thinking, how these all interact with each
• 4:13
  other and how you can start to have an impact.
• 4:15
  And that's really important part of sustainability in general.
• 4:18
  How can you explore stakeholder perceptions and stakeholder
• 4:21
  views and build that into your decision making and your
• 4:24
  outcomes for a project? But why bother doing all of
• 4:27
  this? Yes, there's a compliance
• 4:28
  element. We need to do it.
• 4:30
  There's a moral and ethical imperative, but there's also a
• 4:33
  business case. There's also benefits to
• 4:35
  organisations, so the Infrastructure Carbon Review
• 4:38
  published more than 10 years ago by the Treasury so that if
• 4:41
  leaders don't believe there's value in reducing carbon, as one
• 4:45
  example, nothing happens. But they also found that
• 4:48
  organisations were able to reduce carbon on by 39% on
• 4:53
  average, and that led to a direct cost reduction of 22%.
• 4:57
  So there's some real business benefits from reducing carbon.
• 5:01
  They're also climate risks. So again, the World Economic
• 5:03
  Forum says that businesses could lose up to 7% in value by 2035
• 5:08
  if they don't factor in their climate risks.
• 5:11
  A little bit closer to home, we did a survey last year through
• 5:15
  the early career stuff across the NDA group. 85% of them said
• 5:20
  that they're more likely to apply to a company with strong
• 5:23
  sustainability credentials. Now we've got huge skills
• 5:26
  issues. Nuclear sector does a lot of
• 5:29
  sectors too to be honest, and this is a real big opportunity
• 5:32
  to attract the right people. Doctor Sam Healy is Group
• 5:38
  Director, ESG at Kinetic first session on the role of the
• 5:42
  sustainability SME discussed how embedding sustainability into
• 5:47
  project planning reduces risk and enhances outcomes.
• 5:50
  She highlighted the importance of social values, stakeholder
• 5:54
  engagement and collaboration and stressed that your approach to
• 5:57
  sustainability doesn't have to be perfect.
• 6:00
  The key take away is start small, be optimistic and use
• 6:03
  your sustainability network to support your journey.
• 6:09
  You can just start with some basics which can really ensure
• 6:13
  that you have reduced risk in your project.
• 6:16
  And I know in our in the keynote this morning there was that, you
• 6:19
  know, piece around risk, that risk mindset.
• 6:21
  It's a really great place to start.
• 6:23
  Reducing risk is a really important part of what we do
• 6:25
  when we run projects. So it's making sure that, you
• 6:28
  know, we've got maybe those sustainability credentials,
• 6:30
  right? We've got that compliance,
• 6:32
  right. We've got that risk reduction,
• 6:33
  right. So you know that that's the
• 6:34
  foundation and building sustainability into that mindset
• 6:38
  means that those facets that you have to deal with are baked into
• 6:42
  that. But also there are areas where
• 6:44
  you can start to drive improved and considered delivery.
• 6:47
  You know, how are you building social value into it?
• 6:49
  How are you using that as an enabler?
• 6:52
  You know, for example, it's a fantastic thing to do.
• 6:55
  It's really beneficial to your project, but actually you're
• 6:57
  doing the win win there. You bring your customers into
• 6:59
  those social value interventions so that you're spending more
• 7:02
  time with your customers and they can see what you're doing.
• 7:04
  They're enjoying the interaction.
• 7:05
  It's something that we've really found incredibly beneficial.
• 7:08
  So you're you're being successful on the stakeholder
• 7:10
  engagement, you're being successful on the social value.
• 7:14
  You can start to actively alter your approach, start to really
• 7:17
  bake sustainability into those aspects of what you're doing,
• 7:21
  actively making your solutions more sustainable, creating those
• 7:24
  options for your for your customers, also your internal
• 7:26
  customers, helping them achieve their sustainability goals,
• 7:29
  maybe goals they didn't know that they could achieve without
• 7:33
  your help. And also, again, it goes back to
• 7:36
  that piece about landscape is horizon scanning, working out
• 7:41
  how across your value chain of your projects.
• 7:44
  So working with your suppliers, working with your customers is
• 7:46
  collectively looking at these horizon issues so that you're
• 7:50
  really comfortable you're all on the same journey and know what
• 7:52
  those drivers are. I would really like to stress
• 7:56
  the ecosystem and this kind of builds me to the, to the crux
• 7:59
  of, of what I want to talk about next is so much of
• 8:03
  sustainability needs to be a collaboration.
• 8:05
  Sustainability is fundamentally a shared endeavour.
• 8:08
  There are many, many stakeholders involved in this
• 8:11
  process who have a vested interest in success.
• 8:14
  But also in so many of the cases, actually a lot of the
• 8:18
  sustainability happens at the boundaries of what you're trying
• 8:21
  to achieve. It will be with those
• 8:22
  relationships with your suppliers, It will be the
• 8:24
  relationships with your customers which will allow you
• 8:26
  to be successful. So actively creating your
• 8:29
  ecosystem, working with your stakeholders, proactively
• 8:32
  creating conversations where you might not have all the answers,
• 8:36
  but actually generating those conversations can be incredibly
• 8:39
  powerful. Part of what I do is I chair 2
• 8:42
  working groups, I chair our industry sustainability group,
• 8:46
  and I'm also on the board of the professional body for
• 8:48
  sustainability professionals. And I think one of the most
• 8:51
  critical things that we see is the power of the network is
• 8:55
  using and working with your network proactively, not just
• 8:59
  reactively working out how you can go faster together.
• 9:04
  And this is what we've certainly seen across the industry is
• 9:07
  there's so much you can share that means you can all go faster
• 9:10
  and make progress. You can all play to your
• 9:13
  strengths. So an incredibly important
• 9:15
  aspect of success and sustainability.
• 9:17
  And then finally Bespoke, it's really about, you know, do you
• 9:20
  want to become the next organisation like Patagonia that
• 9:23
  you know, is is known for sustainability?
• 9:25
  To be honest, that's not everybody's journey.
• 9:28
  It may not be your ambition corporately or for your project.
• 9:31
  And actually that's OK. It might be that sustainability
• 9:35
  just makes good sense for your project.
• 9:37
  It reduces risk or it creates some possibility.
• 9:40
  So this isn't designed to be sort of a perfect pyramid with,
• 9:43
  you know, the, the pinnacle at the top.
• 9:45
  That's just one of the possible solutions that could be
• 9:48
  beneficial. And that will be down to you and
• 9:50
  your, and your customers and your, your stakeholders and so
• 9:52
  on. So I've just prompted some, some
• 9:56
  areas of, of value that could potentially work for you and
• 9:59
  your project. And you know, that could be
• 10:01
  strengthen your ecosystem because actually strengthen your
• 10:04
  ecosystem builds your customer relationships or builds your
• 10:07
  supply relationships, which means you work Better Together.
• 10:10
  It could be future proofing or being successful in bids.
• 10:13
  I, I won't sort of read through the whole list, but there are
• 10:16
  many different facets and it goes back to materiality, which
• 10:19
  is not everything will be perfect for you.
• 10:21
  There will be different things that you can go after and you
• 10:24
  can go after some small things and work those up.
• 10:27
  So I think it's about being optimistic to try some stuff out
• 10:31
  and maybe not feel that you can't move until you've got
• 10:34
  perfection. Let's hear from Nicola Lee, a
• 10:39
  director at Deloitte. Nicholas spoke about practical
• 10:42
  actions and sustainability that any project professional can
• 10:45
  implement right away, regardless of seniority.
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  She suggested breaking down the project life cycle into 4 stages
• 10:52
  and highlighted low cost, low effort changes to the line with
• 10:55
  existing frameworks, while emphasising that influence can
• 10:58
  happen at any level. So what can I do?
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  So what can you all do as project professionals?
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  All of this stuff is great. If you're the executive sponsor
• 11:09
  or the lead programme manager, there's a lot you can do with
• 11:11
  what I've already been through. But if you're not, there are
• 11:14
  still things, lower level coalface type of things that can
• 11:17
  be done by anybody regardless of where you sit.
• 11:21
  And I like to think of it through this sort of sustainable
• 11:24
  project life cycle that, that we've developed and working
• 11:29
  through the, the kind of the actions that you can take
• 11:31
  through those four key lenses of, of the funding stage,
• 11:34
  running and managing, measuring and monitoring and the benefits
• 11:37
  realisation. So the crux of it I think comes
• 11:41
  out here. It's like, what can you actually
• 11:43
  do if you think of those four areas?
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  There's lots of different things.
• 11:47
  The underpinning point, I think is that a lot of these changes
• 11:49
  are, are relatively small. They're they're low cost and low
• 11:52
  effort, and they can be built into the existing change
• 11:57
  frameworks that you might be forced to work within as part of
• 11:59
  your organisation. Some areas are stricter, you
• 12:02
  know, some, some firms and some industry sectors are less
• 12:05
  strict, but you will most likely be working within a framework
• 12:08
  that's designed by your organisation.
• 12:09
  These adaptations can be made within that framework and be
• 12:13
  complementary to it, even if you don't have the power to actually
• 12:16
  adapt the entire framework itself from first principles.
• 12:20
  In the funding section, you'll probably be reading some of
• 12:23
  those things and thinking, actually, there's not much I can
• 12:26
  do if you're not in direct control of some of these things.
• 12:29
  If you're not the budget holder, for example, you can still be an
• 12:32
  influencer. So have a conversation with the
• 12:34
  person who is a budget holder. Ask a few good questions in
• 12:37
  meetings. You know what, what actually are
• 12:39
  the funding sources for this project, which is particularly
• 12:42
  relevant to sort of the big capital projects that almost
• 12:44
  operate as an independent company in their own right.
• 12:49
  How we're measuring the the carbon emissions of our
• 12:51
  programme. A simple, you know, well men
• 12:54
  innocently placed question in the right year at the right time
• 12:57
  can really influence thinking. And you might find that actually
• 13:00
  you are able to get your buyer to think about the funding in a
• 13:04
  different way. And there are lots of examples
• 13:07
  in the other quadrants that you can use there as well.
• 13:09
  So during the run and manage stage, you know, anyone could
• 13:13
  suggest if you're, if you're PMO support, you could suggest that
• 13:16
  it might be an idea to track the travel emissions of the project
• 13:19
  if that's not something that's already been thought about.
• 13:21
  And in the benefits piece, it then comes full circle from
• 13:26
  funding. So if you set out at the start
• 13:29
  what you're trying to achieve and a sustainability metrical
• 13:32
  KPI to measure that, then it becomes easier.
• 13:34
  But even if not, when it's coming to the benefits
• 13:37
  assessment piece, particularly when you're going through a
• 13:39
  stage gate or, you know, post project assessment or a close
• 13:43
  out review, you can again ask a few good questions.
• 13:46
  Well, what do we think was the impact on the well-being of our
• 13:49
  team? Hopefully you'll be thinking to
• 13:50
  track that throughout the life cycle.
• 13:52
  But even if not, have you had a look at the, you know, the
• 13:55
  average number of hours they had to work to, to get this thing
• 13:58
  over the line and the impact that might have had on them?
• 14:00
  Have you had a look around what the impact is in the local
• 14:03
  community? Are we using, you know, are we
• 14:05
  leaving anything behind for the local community from this or not
• 14:09
  to give you a couple of really sort of detailed practical
• 14:13
  examples that that you could actually go away, I think and
• 14:16
  implement tomorrow in your project.
• 14:18
  If we look at status reporting, most project status reports that
• 14:23
  I've seen are talking about all the usual things, you know, are
• 14:27
  we, are we behind plan? What's the cost looking like
• 14:29
  time we're reporting progress against milestones.
• 14:33
  I don't see many if any that include any sustainability or
• 14:38
  even sustainability adjacent type of items on that.
• 14:42
  So you know the average working hours per project person during
• 14:46
  that week or month, whatever the reporting period is, what were
• 14:49
  the the collective carbon emissions of the group in that
• 14:51
  period? What's the trend analysis of
• 14:53
  that? Is it going up or down is either
• 14:55
  anything we think we can or should be doing about that.
• 14:58
  You can also consider the less obvious impact, I guess.
• 15:01
  So if we think about decarbonization, the processes
• 15:05
  that you use and design, the, you know, the number of physical
• 15:09
  documents you produce, printing less so these days, I think, but
• 15:12
  the number of multiple versions of documents you might be
• 15:15
  storing, Do you have an on premise or a cloud based
• 15:17
  solution for that? Again, you might not be able to
• 15:20
  make the choice between the two, but if you can, if there are
• 15:22
  multiple options, choose the one that's going to be, you know,
• 15:25
  the lower emission option. Make your processes as efficient
• 15:28
  as they can be, which I think we all want to do anyway as part of
• 15:31
  our daily work. And that also has a beneficial
• 15:34
  effect on the carbon footprint. Our next highlight comes from
• 15:39
  Christina Mass, a project leader at Airbus.
• 15:42
  She shared how to embed sustainability throughout the
• 15:45
  entire project life cycle, from concept to closure.
• 15:49
  She talked about identifying the why behind sustainability early
• 15:53
  on, engaging stakeholders from the start, and integrating clear
• 15:57
  sustainability criteria into planning and procurement.
• 16:04
  We mentioned earlier that sustainability in project
• 16:06
  management has to go from the concept phase all the way to the
• 16:09
  planning, the controlling and then handover enclosure, Very
• 16:13
  simple terms. I mean, there's obviously
• 16:15
  different ways to look at those phases.
• 16:17
  There's more or less, but that's, let's say, the top level
• 16:19
  way of looking at things. So feel free to adapt that to
• 16:23
  your, you know, the methods that you're using within your
• 16:25
  companies in the concept phase. That's really when you're
• 16:28
  starting to like, you know, that early engagement, the business
• 16:30
  case to re understand what we're doing with that, with the
• 16:33
  project, what value we're introducing.
• 16:36
  So in that, for example, we've mentioned a few times I've
• 16:38
  already told you triple bottom line.
• 16:40
  That's the main that's the most important bit, but it's really
• 16:43
  introducing that triple bottom line.
• 16:45
  I'd like to point out as well, the second bullet point and it
• 16:47
  adds to why so why is sustainability important for
• 16:51
  you, for the project, for the sponsors.
• 16:53
  So it's really trying to find that why and when you start
• 16:56
  looking at the why, actually it's quite helpful because
• 16:59
  that's an immediate way of introducing it and not really
• 17:01
  having to, you don't really have to explain we already, if you
• 17:04
  put the words into that, why are we doing this, then that's much
• 17:07
  easier to engage everyone. The other really important bit,
• 17:10
  of course, is engaging the stakeholders.
• 17:12
  So from the very beginning, from the very, very beginning, please
• 17:15
  engage your stakeholders and take them on that journey.
• 17:19
  So that's on the concept phase. When we look at the planning
• 17:22
  phase, we've defined why are we doing this, what is
• 17:25
  sustainability important to us and that, you know, triple
• 17:28
  bottom line. Now it's up to the planning.
• 17:30
  We all know how to build a project management plan.
• 17:33
  It can be very, very extensive. It can be very, very small.
• 17:37
  We can look at planning, we can look at resources and risks, but
• 17:40
  it's really how do we integrate sustainability into that.
• 17:43
  So I want to point out the first one, we mentioned this before.
• 17:46
  That was the second point earlier methodology and tools.
• 17:49
  The second point here is sustainability criteria.
• 17:52
  So that's a really interesting way of really measuring that
• 17:55
  we're doing things properly with the criteria that we're
• 17:57
  assessing projects with. So it's really that, for
• 18:01
  example, it says here inclusivity goals and energy
• 18:03
  efficiency targets. So can we measure that and how
• 18:06
  do we measure that success in a project?
• 18:08
  Basically not just looking at the financial side of things or
• 18:10
  not just looking at things that we know very well of scope, for
• 18:14
  example of quality. You know, we've all got those
• 18:16
  metrics, but how do we define sustainability?
• 18:19
  And then another element of here, which is sustainable
• 18:21
  procurement. I don't want to give you many
• 18:24
  like huge examples, but really procurement is such an important
• 18:27
  bit in this whole, in this whole recipe.
• 18:31
  So think about your supply and chain.
• 18:32
  Think really how many suppliers do we have?
• 18:34
  Can we assess them? Can we see if for new suppliers
• 18:37
  we can assess their sustainability?
• 18:38
  So it's really a big, big chunk for me.
• 18:41
  We won't go through all of them, but the one that I really want
• 18:43
  to point out is sustainability risks and opportunities.
• 18:46
  We've mentioned this before, but this is really when we start
• 18:48
  looking at the risk that we've got ahead of us.
• 18:50
  You know, we know what the planning stage looks like.
• 18:53
  So think beyond, think beyond the risk that you usually would
• 18:55
  think of impacting the schedule or or impacting your budget, but
• 18:59
  really think beyond, beyond that.
• 19:01
  Again, in the last point, map and manage your stakeholders.
• 19:04
  So don't forget about your stakeholders, stakeholders in
• 19:07
  the second phase of your project, the third phase of your
• 19:10
  project, we had the development and control.
• 19:11
  So this is where we start actually doing the work.
• 19:14
  You've planned it all, now let's get to it.
• 19:16
  So this is the moment we're actually executing, monitoring,
• 19:19
  changing, controlling, reporting.
• 19:21
  One of the big elements for me obviously is sustainable
• 19:23
  performance. We've defined why you're doing
• 19:26
  it, how are you going to do it? And now you're defining, OK, how
• 19:28
  are we measuring what we're what we've actually done.
• 19:31
  So we're really meeting those sustainability targets that we
• 19:34
  had at the beginning. Another good way of doing that
• 19:37
  is organising sustainability audits.
• 19:39
  So they're just, there's some corporations that do that.
• 19:42
  So try and see if that would make sense for your projects.
• 19:44
  For example, if to organise a sustainability audit, that's
• 19:47
  another element that is important and this is where the
• 19:50
  reporting that we mentioned earlier is really critical.
• 19:53
  So is there anything that you need to look at in your own
• 19:55
  projects to have that transparent reporting on
• 19:57
  sustainability? I mentioned it again, but I've
• 20:00
  mentioned it before stakeholders again.
• 20:02
  So really key to keep them engaged in this, in this phase.
• 20:06
  And finally, we look at the very last bit, so the handover and
• 20:10
  you know the the final stage of our project at the closure.
• 20:14
  First one, have we met the sustainability benefits that we
• 20:17
  had planned to do? Have we, you know, things that
• 20:20
  we were looking to do, Have we measured them and have we
• 20:22
  successfully gotten those benefits?
• 20:25
  So it's really understanding the measurable and achieved benefits
• 20:28
  that we've had on the sustainability side.
• 20:30
  A good way, for example, a very good example is reduced
• 20:33
  emissions. So it's easy to calculate.
• 20:35
  We say we want to reduce emissions by 20%.
• 20:37
  Have we done it, yes or no? We also can look at
• 20:40
  sustainability documentation. So is there anything that is in
• 20:43
  particular like manuals for seeable operation or anything
• 20:45
  that is a documentation that is in addition that is related to
• 20:48
  project that is additional to that, that can help in that
• 20:51
  handover stage. So that's another important
• 20:53
  point. One of my favourite points of
• 20:56
  that of this final, final stage is any residual risks and
• 21:00
  opportunities. So we've mentioned about raising
• 21:01
  those risks, but are there any risks that are still remaining
• 21:04
  now that are sustainability risk or opportunities that you
• 21:07
  weren't able to tackle in your project that will be important
• 21:09
  for the future? So it's really understanding
• 21:11
  those those residual risks to the at the very end of your
• 21:14
  project. And of course, handover, there's
• 21:17
  always lessons learned. I don't know about you and your
• 21:19
  projects, but every time surprises pop up.
• 21:21
  So it's always about those lessons learned and how the
• 21:24
  future projects can learn from your lessons.
• 21:27
  So really capture those lessons learned and think, is there
• 21:29
  anything on a sustainability side that that we would like to
• 21:33
  make sure we capture and you know, communicate further as a
• 21:36
  lesson learned. So it's a really important point
• 21:38
  there again and finally again, we've talked about this again,
• 21:41
  but stakeholders. So don't forget about your
• 21:43
  stakeholders. Also in the handover phase,
• 21:45
  there's the the very, very end of your projects.
• 21:47
  You want to make sure that you are, you know, communicated and
• 21:50
  this is what we have achieved and also communicating for
• 21:53
  future projects and stakeholders, this is what we
• 21:55
  could achieve in the future. So it's really important to have
• 21:58
  everyone engaged in that sustainability journey.
• 22:02
  Our final highlight is taken from a panel discussion chaired
• 22:05
  by Mark Helis of the Satellite Applications Catapult focus on
• 22:10
  the best methodologies for embedding sustainability
• 22:12
  practises. We'll pick up the discussion
• 22:15
  with Narendra Daliwal explaining that both agile and waterfall
• 22:19
  project management methodologies have roles to play in embedding
• 22:22
  sustainability. She advocated for a hybrid
• 22:25
  approach, highlighting agile strengths and enabling early
• 22:28
  testing, feedback and faster achievement of sustainability
• 22:32
  goals. I think it's really important to
• 22:37
  recognise that Agile is here. It's not going away.
• 22:41
  People might think that it's kind of disappearing.
• 22:43
  It's not, and we need to understand why organisations
• 22:46
  choose to incorporate agile ways of working within their
• 22:49
  waterfall environment. It's not one or the other.
• 22:52
  You can use the two together quite happily and we need to
• 22:55
  recognise that when people are choosing to use an agile
• 22:58
  approach, it's normally because they want to try something out,
• 23:01
  test it out, get the feedback as early as possible and then pivot
• 23:06
  if necessary or if it's working further, develop it.
• 23:10
  The idea is the sooner I can get something out the door, the
• 23:13
  sooner I can benefit from it. So if it means that some of
• 23:17
  these sustainability goals can be achieved earlier, why are we
• 23:20
  not doing that? Why are we not using Agile to
• 23:22
  help us do that? And this goes back to what I
• 23:25
  said. If we don't plan it properly, if
• 23:27
  it's not part of the initial conversation and we don't set
• 23:31
  ourselves those goals and those objectives and we're not
• 23:34
  communicating with our stakeholders, we're not going to
• 23:37
  do it. It's not going to get achieved.
• 23:39
  And it's at that point when you think about and you ask the
• 23:42
  right questions of why, how soon can I achieve this goal?
• 23:46
  Could I use an agile approach to actually reduce my, I don't
• 23:50
  know, net 0 carbon footprint sooner rather than later?
• 23:55
  What could we do differently? And it may have a huge impact on
• 23:59
  how you end up delivering that project.
• 24:02
  So I think it's really important to have that conversation at the
• 24:05
  beginning and don't feel it's got to be one or the other
• 24:08
  because there's going to be parts of your projects where
• 24:10
  Agile's not going to be suitable, but there are going to
• 24:13
  be other parts of your project where you can absolutely use it,
• 24:17
  and then you should. So I think some of the messaging
• 24:20
  I'm hearing there is around how we are open and responsive and
• 24:25
  adaptive during our project delivery and not being fixed to
• 24:28
  to 111 approach or methodology throughout it's duration.
• 24:33
  We definitely need to be more adaptable, and that's what agile
• 24:36
  is, you know, being flexible, being able to move in different
• 24:39
  directions. And I definitely wholeheartedly
• 24:42
  recommend that. That's it for this episode of
• 24:53
  the APM Podcast. If you've been inspired by what
• 24:56
  you've heard from the 2025 APM Conference, why not pick up a
• 25:00
  super early bird ticket for 2026?
• 25:03
  Next year's event will be held at Manchester Central on the
• 25:06
  29th and 30th of April. Head to apm.org.uk for more
• 25:10
  details on how you can book. If you've enjoyed this episode,
• 25:14
  please rate and review us. Spotify users can also leave a
• 25:17
  comment in the app or listeners can contact us at
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  apmpodcastthinkpublishing.co.uk. We're always keen to hear from
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  you regarding ideas for future episodes.
• 25:28
  That's it from us. See you next time.