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Managing the Emotional Journey of Long-term Care for Families with Deborah Bakti · Authentic Living

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Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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Hi, everyone.
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It's, Roxanne Door Hutch.
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Thanks again for tuning in for authentic living with Roxanne.
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Today, I have a special, guest and she has some been someone.
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We initially got, in introduced each other by a common colleague, Deborah Bacti.
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So Deborah, thanks for coming in, hanging out with us again today.
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Oh, it's my pleasure, Ron.
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So Deborah and I, cross paths, and we've, been involved in, projects together over the years
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just kind of knowing what each other's doing.
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And, her expertise is, you know, I think it's, oh, there's always been a need.
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I, I would say that most of us today I know with my parents, they're both, elderly, kind of
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thinking about, you know, the senior care and and all the things that you kind of have to
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maneuver and and kind of manage as your parents gets older.
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And this is something that Deborah's been, doing for quite a while.
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Deborah, I'm gonna I'm just reading a little bit about Deborah's background.
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There's gonna be a full kind of bio.
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She's the owner of Think breakthrough, big breakthrough inc.
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It's a consulting and training company that's helped senior care organizations build
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stronger, healthier relationships, with their resident families.
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She's the author of 2 books, recipe for empathy, 6 strategies, to transform your
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families into fans, in senior care.
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And her newest book, which she has already sold 4000 copies, I should tell you, managing the
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emotional journey of long term care for family.
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She's been a senior care executive, for about 11 years.
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And at that point, she had firsthand kind of experience, having had her husband.
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And at the time, I met Deborah.
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I know she was caring for her husband.
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Her mom and dad all became, residents of senior care building.
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So not only is it her specialty, but she's had to experience that as a, a family member, and
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she's also a certified corporate coach and positive psychology practitioner.
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So thank you again.
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So Deborah, I'm gonna ask you, and I, I don't know that I know this.
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What made you want to become involved in in senior care way back when you got to, kind of
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the corporate setting?
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Well, it it was like a lot of people happened in their careers.
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It it wasn't planned.
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I was working in the staffing industry at the time, and I was approached and headhunted to
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join this organization and lead their home care division.
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There were some correlations in the staffing services model.
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And so that was way back in 2006.
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And, so it was all it was all new for me.
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I didn't even know what home care was.
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I'd never had a need for home care.
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Didn't know anybody who had home care.
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And I knew about long term care nursing homes, and that was about the extent of it.
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So, you know, very quickly learned and and had was in a leadership role.
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And then it was 2008 when my husband started having these weird symptoms and became ill, And
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it was an 18 month journey to get a diagnosis of what was a really rare disease that only
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four hundred people in the world had at the time.
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And so I then we became customers of home care, adult daycare, and with the unfortunate
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progression of the disease, he needed to be placed into long term care in 2011, and he
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lived in a home for 4 years before he passed away in 2015.
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And as you mentioned, I also had an experience with both my dad and my mom.
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My dad lived in long term care for 6 months.
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And then my mom went into retirement living, independent living, and then we needed to
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transition her assisted living and she passed away in 2019.
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So it was quite we experienced three times over of living and breathing as a family member of a
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resident in seeing in the in the senior's care system.
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Do you so my my I'm just curious about this.
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Right?
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So, obviously, your husband was younger and or parents are all getting older.
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But when you put someone younger in versus your older family members, what did you experience?
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Were there differences or were there certain themes that you would say?
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That you experience the same of of putting in them in a facility?
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Well, I think it's different based on the relation relationship.
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And you're right.
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He was younger and about 10 to 12% of residents in a long term care home are under the age of
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sixty five.
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So as you can imagine, the majority are older and probably more closer in their eighties.
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So it was certainly a surreal experience to be someone as young.
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I mean, my peer group of women were thirty years older than me, And they also typically
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were retired.
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Their kids had grown where I was working full time, and I had 2 kids living at home that I
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was in essence single parenting.
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And I think there's probably there's also similarities for anyone who needs to make the
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decision more of the often than not is making the decision for your parents or an aunt or
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uncle.
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But for anyone, the family experience going through making the decision is filled with all
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sorts of emotional angst.
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Right?
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There's the guilt.
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There's some grief, there's anxiety, there's fear.
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And going through the last year with COVID has only made it worse because of all of the
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negative media that's being written about institutional living.
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And then also too, some families feel relief.
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They have been white knuckling at caregiving at home.
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As my mom did with my dad until he needed to go into long term care.
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And then you feel guilty about feeling relieved.
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Right?
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And and the other thing on top of it is most people don't really understand how senior's
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care works.
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They don't know what they don't know.
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Other than what they've read about.
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So, you know, I think every person's journey is unique, and me to write this second book now
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what?
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Managing the emotional journey of long term care for families because it doesn't tend to
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get a lot of attention as to how the family is feeling.
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A lot of energy and attention is put on the resident as it should.
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This is a big life change for them.
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But I think what's underestimated is the life change that families go through.
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And you, as a therapist, may see people coming in to speak to you that are grappling with that
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and to subsidiary agree for the uncertainty and the change in their in their life
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relationships.
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And sometimes they have other people judging them, like, why couldn't you keep taking care
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of them at home?
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How how dare you put them into an old folks home as it used to be referred to?
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Right?
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And and it's it's just it's not that cut and dried.
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So tell me about some of the psychological implications of or the stages that families
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might go through.
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Like, I have, I think of a a client that I had, at the beginning of COVID and, a bit oh, she
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was a bit older.
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Her and her husband kinda had their predefined lives you know, she wanna, you know, they would
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do things together.
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He did stuff with his friends and she, you know, would have some trips and, you know, so
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it was kinda pretty really they had a pretty good life.
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And then dementia set in, at which point, she was trying to be supportive and probably manage
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a lot more things than she should have.
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And what started to happen is the dementia start to get worse.
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And then and then she's still trying to manage.
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And I'm like, okay.
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Well, no.
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We need to I said to her, we need to get you connected.
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Because, you know, what's gonna happen is she would leave him at times thinking he's okay,
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and then he'd go for a walk and forget things and, And it was very it was very overwhelming,
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but she felt a bit of when they she started into the system.
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She kind of got diverted in a way that put her into up, one way street, and then she was at
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the beginning again until she started to talk to me, and then I started to talk to her to get
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her connected you know, through the system to kind of get the geriatric assessment of all
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those things.
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So sometimes you're this lack of knowledge a lot, would you say that a lot of families,
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members live with it?
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Because they think, oh, well, maybe there's there's there's not the options of the they
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don't know the, kind of the triage models or the spaces that they need to explore.
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For sure.
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That's one of the aspects.
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It we already have a complex health care system to navigate.
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And the seniors care spectrum of it, that's through the Lynn in Ontario.
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That's the local health integration network.
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A lot of people don't know that they even exist and they don't know where to start.
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And that first visit with the doctor, your family doctor, and they say, know, you really
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need to be thinking about this, that immediate denial can kick in.
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And I experienced it myself.
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It's hard for us to see the progression or, wishful thinking that is not going to continue
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to get worse.
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In in my book, I talk about basically, it's like the sun the 7 a's is a framework that I
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that I created based on my experience and it is to help families recognize that within these, 7
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stages and it may not be linear It usually starts with just being aware.
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You have to have that awareness that this is an issue.
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It's a challenge.
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There are resources out there.
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So there's there's the awareness from a knowledge standpoint, but also an emotional
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standpoint.
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And then is progressing into that area of being able to acknowledge.
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And that's facing the reality and not that magical thinking that we can have that I can
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continue to take care of them.
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I can, you know, this is going to get better.
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Right?
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And and then getting into that area of being able to adapt, and this is ideally when someone
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has finally been able to make the decision, How do you adapt to that new role of being a family
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member in a long term care or seniors care community?
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And how do you adapt to your schedule?
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And some of the things that you talked about when you're used to having someone with you
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there as a partner every day but also as a caregiver giving up the control of the
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caregiving.
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Absolutely.
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Because that, you know, if I'm, you know, at the point where I'm, you know, carrying in.
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I know my sisters and my family, my with my mom.
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She's in a seniors building.
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She's not in a long term term care building.
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You know, so we we're involved with her a lot and, you know, you kinda you kinda think you
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know what what is sometimes right for them as you realize, oh, no.
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Yeah.
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And sometimes, you know, parents can kinda get their way through their children, which
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sometimes is not the best for what's recommended for them.
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That's the thing.
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I I I'm gonna use the word a bit manipulative at times because they think, oh, I don't wanna
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do this.
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So I'll just tell my kids this.
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And my mom's done that with us before, and then we're all starting to talk.
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And then we're like, oh, okay.
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And then we talked to the nurse manager who's giving us a different story.
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So I I think not knowing the system, I could see, you know, would be something that family
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members could benefit just having, like you said, the knowledge of what the system can and
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can't help with, what you're giving up, and what you have to compensate with, like, know
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that you've let up that care and, you know, leave it up to the the experts that know it,
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but some most of us aren't so good with, giving up some of that control.
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Well, and you probably see people who've got that natural gene of caregiving.
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Sometimes it can be a control issue.
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Nobody can do it better than I.
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And sometimes it can be that martyr, and I speak from experience.
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But, you know, sometimes I felt like was be I was playing the martyr role with all of the
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heavy lifting I needed to do with taking care of my husband and to allow other people also
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understand they're not going to do things perfectly and they're not going to do things
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the way that you would and they're living in a community setting.
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And I think that's where it becomes really important in how the families and the care
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teams are able to have an expectations discussion and dispel some of the
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misconceptions that they have.
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A lot of families think that their loved ones going to get 1 on 1 20 fourseven care.
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And it's that's just not how it works.
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And so, you know, there's some there's some learning with that, and that's where I think
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it's when a family is not feeling emotionally, capable of that change in their life and their
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lifestyle, it can really create a lot of friction for the people who work in seniors
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care, and it also affects the resident.
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Mean, I think when when they look out when a person becomes a resident in a senior's care
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home, it's the resident who adopts to their new routine first, typically.
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And then the staff, they adjust.
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It's a new resident, lots of new learning for them, but it can take the family 2, 3 months,
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even longer, to get to that place of being able to adopt and accept, right, and to be able to
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actually appreciate their new role and fiddle too well.
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Yeah.
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So you talked a little bit about, admission anxiety, and I think we're stepping into this.
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Just just tell us what that is and, like, an example of maybe a scenario that that is kind
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of atypical.
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I know every family is gonna be different.
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So what is admission anxiety I
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I would say most families.
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I've not met a family, and I've met a lot of them that haven't felt that anxiety.
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They're coming into a building that they know that they're going to be leaving that building
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without their loved one, and they just don't know what to expect.
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It's overwhelming.
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The sounds, the activity, different people, and admission day can be very busy.
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And I know for me and for a lot of other families, it can feel transactional.
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The home is already busy and they're squeezing this admission in, and there's lots of
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paperwork and all of that to cover.
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So It's as they're going through that and then as they're leaving and walking to their car,
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driving home, that's when the tears start.
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That's when the Have I done the right thing and the guilt can set in?
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On the other side of the equation is the staff who can feel admission anxiety.
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And I was able to get a better understanding in when I was doing consulting on-site that the
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morning of a new resident and family coming in, the staff are trying to learn everything they
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can based on a file that's being sent to them.
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And as you can appreciate Roxanne, the the file only says so much, and some of the information
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is not correct or it's out of date.
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And there also tends to be this worry about I wonder what the family's going to be like.
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Are they gonna be nice?
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Are they gonna be pleasant?
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How are they emotionally feeling about this?
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And every home has had the challenge of having passion.
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It's called them passionate family.
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In my book, I talk about family flavors, and I I I there's there's jalapeno families, right,
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or there's families.
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I'm hoe that's probably been my family, Deborah.
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You're putting it down and it's getting a little bit hot and spicy.
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Right.
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And they can have jalapeno moments.
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And so sometimes the staff are almost racing themselves, and they're thinking, oh, know,
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that's gonna be a difficult family.
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And so this labeling starts to happen.
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And I really don't believe that families come in to be difficult.
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They're scared.
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They're afraid.
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They don't know what they don't know.
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And then they get handled in this admission process.
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And then they leave and and sometimes they feel like they haven't really been seen or
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understood.
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Right?
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Because the the staff are and, frankly, so focusing on getting the resident settled is a
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big change for them.
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So I find it to share with families that the the care team are also feeling this admission
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anxiety.
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It's actually a way to be able to connect with a shared experience just for different reasons,
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and how can we be focusing on alleviating that anxiety with each other by focusing on that
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making a connection as human beings on a probably one of the hardest days of that
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family's life And it's a day that they will remember.
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They may not remember the details.
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It can be a bit of a blur, but they will remember how they felt.
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And for the staff, it's It's it's another day of a busy day.
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And so I try to help them understand why it's so important to be present and intentional and
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can passionate and curious with that family, to to bringing bringing them.
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It's it's no different than onboarding.
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An employee in your organization, you wanna be be mindful and, and compassionate in that.
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And it's your family member, right, that you, you know, it's that connection, that love.
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So you're trying to let go and you know, that they have the skills, but I wonder, is there a
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bridge that happens?
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Is there like a preadmission kind of group or any kind of connection with the staff, with the
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family members, or is it that on admission day that when, things happen.
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It can vary.
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Like, sometimes you you if you're if you are on the wait list, And, I mean, there's about 30,
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over 30,000 people that are on the wait list in Ontario right now to get into long term care.
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You'll get a phone call saying a bed is available and that you've got a very short
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period of time to decide whether you want to accept it.
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And every situation's different.
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Sometimes you may get the phone call from the Lynn.
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So there's an initial phone conversation with a very short window that you have to make the
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decision.
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And it it can feel it can feel rushed.
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And and I think that's where it There's so much opportunity to be what I say is to be more
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relational versus transactional at that point in time.
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Particularly when the family is feeling so vulnerable and are looking for someone to take
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the lead and be their guide.
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Even if they don't realize that that's what they need and want.
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That that makes so much sense.
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So, you know, obviously, like you said, the the anxiety is at a different level for different
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people.
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And of course, when we're fearful, what we do, we try to protect, right?
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So you know, so what, what, what mode does the family go into kind of, I would say, like, it's
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almost like an imprint of a signature with a family, right?
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How do you really kind of, react under pressure?
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Some families are like they all line up and they get things done.
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Other, you know, some people are emotive, some people are disconnecting, you know, as a family
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therapist, you know, obviously, I've seen every of that.
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But of course, this is a significant life, shift, right?
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It's a huge change knowing that it's not gonna come back the same way.
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So it's adjustments to kinda like, you know, it's, it's, not unlike what you said,
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organizationally, if it's change management, how you're getting as much, prepped as
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possible.
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And we know the reality oftentimes isn't doesn't fit, right, like to what the you know,
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what's happening on the boots on the ground is different from what to perceive it and bridging
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that gap just to help, like you said, not just just the residents, but the family members, and
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you have all your staffing as well, and they have lives as well.
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So you have a lot of things going on in that system all at
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I used to joke about how when I would go to visit Thai, it was like visiting this village.
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And all of these people that were coming and going, you had like you say, you've had the
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staff.
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They've got their own dynamics happening.
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Some staff like each other, some don't.
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And the more you're there with the family, the more you you kinda get the inside scoop.
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And you've got management, and you've got all the different departments, the laundry,
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housekeeping, maintenance, and then you've got other family members.
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And so it it's this little town that operates and you've got the different residents and
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their personalities and some residents love each other and some don't.
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Right?
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And, and and when you talk about families and being a family therapist, you would get those
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family dynamics and dysfunction.
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Yes.
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And you can have a family that's submitting a loved 1 and 2 of the sisters.
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1 has been the the driver.
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She's the power of attorney.
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And the other sisters in denial.
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And so then you've got their their own dysfunction, but how that comes into the home
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and how they're relating to the staff.
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And that family, in fighting that can happen that they bring in it.
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Right?
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And the drama that happens.
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The family drama that's happening and that and the the, like you said, what's the flavor of
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the family?
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People are going coming in with fear.
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And you're thinking, okay.
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All my nursing skills are gonna come into play now.
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I'm gonna be compassionate and kind, but I'm gonna hold that boundary that says you have to
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be respectful, obviously.
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So it's there's a lot of things I would think at that play.
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When I worked with addictions on different environment, but similar in a lot of ways.
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It's, you know, the families that would come in, and we would have to educate them about,
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you know, kind of boundaries and, you know, what can and cannot be done and all those
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things.
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And you're right.
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We would get every iteration of every possibility of who was coping how and
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everything that could bear out.
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We would do family groups.
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That's why I was asking, but, of course, Ours was, you know, it was a known admission date,
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but what your point sometimes, if there's 30,000 people waiting for a bed, I would think
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that you get a call and you're making a decision within, you know, maybe less than a
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week and you're everything has to go.
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Yeah.
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It's 24 hours.
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Yes.
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It could be it could be any time.
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Right.
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And and I I love how you said, like, it it really is about how someone is coping.
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And so when we're quick to say they're being difficult, is it that they're being difficult,
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or are they struggling and they're having a hard time coping?
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And sometimes it is, that making eye contact and just saying, like, when when I do my
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training and I talk about how challenging that admission day was when I left high there.
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And if somebody at the home had called me that night just to check-in and say, Ties doing
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great, but we wanna know that must have been a really hard day for you.
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We could see that you were struggling with it.
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How are you feeling?
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Yeah.
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That making an emotional connection, I would have felt seen and heard.
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And and now I've got clients who are implementing that as that reach out and the
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difference that they're seeing is remarkable because we're being human and relational.
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Absolutely.
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And, and, you know, with all the work that I do, whether it's as a psychotherapist or when I
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was in trauma or addictions or just even consulting with teams.
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That's the main thing.
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Right?
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It's about, regardless of what you're going through is, can I experience you, you know,
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like the thing, the thought that I can, I just can stop things and say, how's it really going
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for you?
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Ready drops that veil.
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Right?
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Cause we all get into that stress signature and that, that dance that we do.
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And then when somebody notices that, you know, you may be a high functioner, but you could
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tell that you're, you're, you're just doing your thing.
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And somebody says, how are you really doing that?
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Shows you that human to human Wow, that it's difficult.
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I'm not really sure what you're experiencing, but I, I'm gonna think that it's probably a
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little bit of a tough time for you.
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And I think, you know, in whatever role you're in to be able to have that skill and to be
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aware within yourself, what you're experiencing, in that capacity, that's, that's
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just opens up, you know, such huge doors for people to connect.
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So let's, let's talk a little bit about, if there's families listening or even, you know,
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leadership, right, that are listening.
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We've gone through, you know, the this time period.
25:09
We to find the adjectives to to describe what, most people have gone through.
25:14
Now we're thinking about admission in, but we know how many people have lost family members
25:20
in long term care homes for people that are families that are listening that unfortunately
25:26
are at the point where they have to make this decision right now, or even for senior leaders
25:31
listening, what, what kind of things should people be thinking about in this time, about an
25:39
admission?
25:41
Is it referring with it being post COVID and if somebody has a need now to be on the way.
25:47
I don't just generally, like, I mean, before, I'm sure there was anxieties, but now in this
25:51
time, I'm gonna assume there's some heightened things that people might be experiencing.
25:57
Yeah.
25:57
I mean, I think if if someone is thinking about is this the right time?
26:03
I mean, I would recommend that you are talking to your family physician or any specialists
26:07
that are involved in, and let's just use the example of it's a of your parents care.
26:13
And and I think it's also to try to take an, an objective viewpoint as to what's actually
26:23
occurring that would prompt the need for additional level of care Whether that's moving
26:28
into retirement or assisted living or memory care or long term care.
26:34
Because they're typically, when I talk to families, they can look back and in hindsight.
26:40
They saw the warning signs, but either they were, and I'll speak for myself.
26:44
My mom was starting to have some memory issues, not necessarily taking her medication properly.
26:50
And parents can be sneaky when they're trying to cover Right?
26:54
So they're they're, they're deficits.
26:58
Yes.
26:58
We're busy in our work and life and things and everything else.
27:02
No.
27:02
I can look back and recognize that I wasn't being as present and paying attention or asking
27:08
better questions.
27:09
Without making her feel wrong or bad or anything like that.
27:17
Of voices or to be able to see for yourself.
27:20
And then it's doing the due diligence and research of the homes that are in your area, I
27:25
think right now they're still doing virtual visits, but if you're able to speak to the
27:29
social worker or administrator or director of care in the home, because it's important that
27:35
you are able to learn what you can, in Ontario reaching out to your local health your your
27:41
Lynn, to to be able to speak to a case manager to see.
27:46
They there's criteria that's involved.
27:49
Right?
27:49
So I think there's that knowledge, Pete, and then being able to understand from an emotional
27:54
standpoint, how do you feel about this potential necessary next step in your parents
28:01
aging journey.
28:03
And how will you be able to lean into that versus feeling the resistance?
28:08
If you're feeling some of the guilt or maybe some of the grief because of things that are
28:12
changing in your family relationship.
28:15
I highly recommend reaching out to a therapist.
28:18
Like, there are people that you can talk to.
28:21
If I didn't have the support of therapy while my husband was going through it.
28:27
She was in she enabled me to think differently about the reality of our situation and what
28:34
doing everything perfectly all the time always.
28:39
Right?
28:40
Right.
28:41
And I would think that in in this time, and and I wanna talk a little bit about the pandemic
28:46
and all the losses.
28:48
Right?
28:48
I would say that probably, and I'm assuming that, or you're the one that's the expert here
28:52
that some families may be just scared, even if they know that maybe it's time to make that
28:58
decision because of all the losses that we've had in the long term care facilities, what,
29:04
what advice do you have for them?
29:06
You know, like, they may be holding back a lot because, you know, you know, all you hear,
29:12
unfortunately, are all the horror stories.
29:15
We don't hear all the kind things that are being done in these long term care facilities.
29:21
What would you say to them, Deborah?
29:23
If they're really that petrified that they're not taking step even if it may be a necessary
29:28
step at this point.
29:30
I do think it goes back to having a connection with those local communities and asking those
29:34
questions I think that what we've seen over the last year, I've not been in the home, so I'm
29:39
not on the front line directly, but from what I'm also hearing and reading, is that they, you
29:46
know, the the the progress that they've made with vaccinations and that how that's being
29:50
prioritized, there was so much that just wasn't happening initially.
29:56
And now we're a year into it and whether it be the infection control and the protocol and the
30:01
PPE they have and new processes and procedures and whatnot.
30:07
You know, all of those things would be important to research if if my parents were
30:11
alive today and I was facing that, that's exactly what I would be doing and having those
30:16
conversations, or if there's someone that I know that has a loved one that living in a
30:20
seniors care environment.
30:22
I mean, there are some residents who have probably done better living in a community
30:27
setting because and I can think of my my sister-in-law who has her dad living in
30:33
retirement.
30:35
And she is convinced that he he has thrived in that community setting even with some of the
30:41
restrictions that they've had because before, he was living completely on his own.
30:46
Right.
30:46
You have the right dietary support and physical activities and mental stimulation.
30:52
So it really I comes down to assessing your personal situation, where do you see the need
30:59
and the gaps that are currently in existence?
31:01
And I think families also have to look at what impact it's having on their physical and
31:09
emotional health in that caregiving role.
31:12
Because it is not sustainable, in my opinion, in the long run, with a white knuckling
31:18
strategy, and course, it depends on the level of care and the intensity of care that you
31:24
have.
31:24
And maybe you can continue to get home care to support or when adult day care programs are up
31:31
and running again.
31:33
It's it's not an easy decision at the best of times.
31:37
So for employers listening, right, because a lot of people are, you know, the sandwich
31:42
generation, I think a lot of us entered it as soon as we probably did, like, our mid-40s,
31:46
right?
31:46
We were carrying income some capacity.
31:49
And we know your population is aging.
31:52
Like you said, there's 30,000 people waiting for care.
31:55
So and we're going through the fear of the pandemic.
31:58
Everybody's in a mess.
32:00
You know, people are trying to catch your breath, and people have had losses and not
32:04
being able to see family members and all those things.
32:06
So from a from a leadership perspective, what kind of things should HR and leaders be
32:11
considering with people that are maybe having family members in long term care to just kind
32:17
of, I'm thinking about, you know, we're gonna probably at some point start to integrated
32:22
reopened, what kind of things should environments be thinking about, putting in
32:26
place or addressing for people that might be, you know, like you said, caring for 1 or 2, or
32:32
then 3 family members, or maybe they've lost people, you know, through this time, and
32:37
they're, they're going back to work.
32:39
Mhmm.
32:40
Yeah.
32:41
And and some organizations I've talked to, they really tapped into their EAP or the EFAP
32:46
program, the employee assistance program, And I think that they have really geared themselves
32:51
to look at what resources can we provide, contact I know someone will even provide a list
32:58
of homes in the area.
33:00
And I think there's also focus on on grief and PTSD support.
33:06
It's as you talked about whether it whether it was some financial loss, health loss, all of
33:13
those impacts that they're recognizing that employee health and well-being is is no longer
33:19
a nice to have.
33:20
It's a must have.
33:22
In order to be able to provide that support.
33:25
And, that that sounds to me like it's probably one of the easiest ways if an organization does
33:33
have an EAP program.
33:35
And if they don't, then ideally whomever in their HR to and that typically would be
33:40
providing those types under the umbrella of employee benefits is where can they be
33:45
connecting with the local resources to be able to direct employees in that direction.
33:51
Absolutely.
33:52
And I know, that was one of my corporate consulting roles as I was an executive of the
33:57
APs.
33:58
And I, you know, I started the APs back in 1994.
34:02
And, back then, it was a nice to have.
34:05
Right?
34:05
It was kinda like a the companies that, you know, it was kinda the rage and they start to
34:10
wreck nice they needed to do it, but a lot of companies at that time, or even, you know, into
34:16
the 2000s, early 2000s, they would buy the EAP and was kind of be, oh, we have that badge that
34:22
says we have it.
34:23
And I think you're right now.
34:25
Well, I don't think we have We can't negotiate that now, always because, you need to keep
34:30
people connected, secure, psychologically safe, reintegrating back into work, all those things,
34:37
right?
34:38
And we're going back and where people are wanting to go back to employers that they feel
34:43
safe and secure with that are, you know, living their brand and all those things.
34:48
We wanna We wanna deal with people that are really true to their integrity of what what
34:54
business they're running.
34:55
So I think it's It's, you're right.
34:57
It's not a nice to have anymore.
34:59
It's a must have.
35:00
If you want to keep people, you know, at work and, productive and present, all those things.
35:06
And the EAP, I think, is, definitely, I'm sure, you know, there's been an escalation obviously
35:11
in usage.
35:12
I'm gonna be interested to kind of see, I'm sure that that's increased and need need so.
35:18
Right?
35:18
They need to use it so that they could stay healthy and productive at work.
35:22
Well, and I imagine someone that's got their kids and there was an article I saw last week
35:27
about parents suffering from kind of support their kids at home and online learning and
35:33
imagine that.
35:33
And then you thought whether they're living with you or close by, you've got aging parents
35:38
and trying to deal with that.
35:40
It's, a tremendous amount of pressure and burden while maintaining your own job and
35:45
trying to keep things working in that area.
35:49
I know for sure.
35:50
So the book, tell us a bit about it.
35:53
Where, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna assume that people will probably wanna reach out, you
35:58
know, to consult with you or if organizations are listening that have that need or people
36:03
that would want you to, you know, speak on the book.
36:07
Where could they reach you and where can they get the book?
36:10
Yeah.
36:10
Best go to my website, which is deborahbakti.com.
36:15
And I have a page for where people can purchase, either book the recipe for empathy
36:20
are now what managing the emotional journey of long term care.
36:24
And, yeah, I'm working directly with homes that are purchasing the book to be able to give to
36:30
new families, but if families want to be able to buy it directly from you, they just come to
36:34
my website.
36:35
And, or you know what?
36:36
Roxanne, maybe we we give a few copies away to your listeners.
36:40
Okay.
36:41
Well, you tell me and, Then what we'll do is, if if you're gonna do that, when people, let me
36:48
know, they can sign up through the podcast, and then they can let me know, and then not well
36:52
coordinated with you.
36:53
That's so generous.
36:54
That's amazing.
36:55
I'm sure there's a couple people out there that would benefit immediately.
36:59
We'll set something up for when you when the podcast launches of how people can get it.
37:03
Awesome.
37:04
Well, thank you for your time, Deborah.
37:06
So what have I learned?
37:07
I've learned that, and I think the part that I think organizationally makes sense is that,
37:15
there's concurrent experiences happening with the family and with the with the with the,
37:21
nursing care but also with the family and also with the patients.
37:26
So we need to recognize or kind of think where is individually each part of the system at, at
37:32
that point.
37:34
And think about yourself if you're in, if you're in that space and you're having an aging
37:38
parent or having to make that decision tap into what you're where are you at?
37:44
What is your family's members?
37:45
What is the kind of the decension or lack of dissension in the, the family, like Deborah
37:51
said, investigate what's out there, you know, call your local, health health integrated
37:57
network or Lynne and begin that process and just start to kind of educate yourself and
38:03
think what would what is it that we're looking for?
38:06
What are what is the true need and what stage of grief am I individually and collectively
38:13
what stage of group are my family members in and then start from that space.
38:18
That being said, it's not an easy, it's not an easy thing to go through for anyone.
38:22
But again, what's important is offering the best care possible for your, for your loved
38:27
ones, even though it may not be you, it's gonna be the right people.
38:31
So thank you for tuning in.
38:33
Deborah, thanks a lot again, and we'll talk to everyone soon.
38:37
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne.
38:40
Create the space for positive healthy change.
38:44
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
38:50
roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
38:54
We'll see you next time.
38:56
An authentic living with Roxanne.