Latest / Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas / Sexless Relationships: How much sex is enough? ft. Seema Anand

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Sexless Relationships: How much sex is enough? ft. Seema Anand · Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas

0:03
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Love Matters. I am Lisa Mandeldas,
0:06
Speaker 1: and today we're going to be talking about the very common,
0:09
Speaker 1: yet very delicate matter of sexless marriages and the larger
0:13
Speaker 1: issue of sexual dissatisfaction in long term relationships. I have
0:17
Speaker 1: a very special guest I'm going to be discussing this with,
0:20
Speaker 1: but before we dive in, I want to take this
0:22
Speaker 1: opportunity to request you to please rate and review our
0:25
Speaker 1: podcast wherever you're tuning in. And now let's dive in.
0:30
Speaker 1: Have you ever wondered whether your marriage or relationship is
0:33
Speaker 1: meeting all of your sexual needs? Do you ever find
0:36
Speaker 1: yourself feeling a lack of fulfillment or wondering when the
0:39
Speaker 1: last time you had sex works? If you do, you're
0:42
Speaker 1: not alone. And to dive into this topic with me
0:46
Speaker 1: today is none other than Seema Annan, one of my
0:49
Speaker 1: favorite people on the internet, sexuality educator, award winning author, storyteller.
0:55
Speaker 1: She really needs no introduction, and she's someone I look
0:57
Speaker 1: up to so very much, so I am delighted that
1:00
Speaker 1: we get to talk about this very important, yet unaddressed
1:04
Speaker 1: topic together today. Seema, thanks so much for joining us.
1:07
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me Lisa, just to
1:10
Speaker 2: also say that you're one of my favorite people on
1:13
Speaker 2: the internet.
1:13
Speaker 1: Fima. You know, we're so lucky to be in the
1:16
Speaker 1: positions that we are, where people feel like they can
1:18
Speaker 1: be vulnerable with us, and we're the receiving end of
1:21
Speaker 1: so many stories. And I know that sexless marriages and
1:25
Speaker 1: sexual dissatisfaction in long term relationships are something you've been
1:28
Speaker 1: thinking and talking about a lot lately. So we start
1:31
Speaker 1: off with just a little sampling of some of the
1:34
Speaker 1: sorts of stories and concerns and issues that you're hearing
1:39
Speaker 1: about from the millions that follow you.
1:42
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Lisa, I think the interesting thing, first of all
1:46
Speaker 2: is to say that this desire to not be sexually
1:50
Speaker 2: involved with your partner, it isn't just the typical stereotypical
1:55
Speaker 2: narrative that it's the woman who doesn't want sex and
1:57
Speaker 2: the man wants sex. I think the first thing we
2:00
Speaker 2: need to address is the fact that it could be
2:01
Speaker 2: either partner, and even in queer relationships, there is very
2:09
Speaker 2: very high likelihood of one partner not wanting sex, not
2:13
Speaker 2: wanting to actually have what we I guess the term
2:17
Speaker 2: sex generally means penetrative sex, and I think that there's
2:21
Speaker 2: a lot of people that actually don't enjoy the act
2:26
Speaker 2: of penetration, and there can be so many reasons for it,
2:29
Speaker 2: but the problem is that women have it's we've come
2:34
Speaker 2: to believe that women do not like to have penetrative sex.
2:38
Speaker 2: It is of no interest to them, it's of no
2:40
Speaker 2: pleasure to them, and we kind of decide that it's
2:43
Speaker 2: always the woman. And the sad part of that is
2:46
Speaker 2: that there are a lot of people from other genders
2:48
Speaker 2: who are actually suffering this emotional baggage of not wanting
2:52
Speaker 2: it either, but we don't address their needs, and it's
2:54
Speaker 2: just it's a bit of a mess.
2:56
Speaker 1: There's several sorts of issues that are all very common.
3:00
Speaker 1: Right on the one hand, I mean, the idea of
3:02
Speaker 1: sex less marriage can sometimes refer to a marriage that
3:06
Speaker 1: was quote unquote never consummated, where sex has never occurred,
3:11
Speaker 1: and in societies where arranged marriages is the way marriages occur,
3:16
Speaker 1: which tends to still be the case in India. That
3:18
Speaker 1: is perhaps something that you know you've never had sex
3:20
Speaker 1: until you get married, and then maybe you don't have sex.
3:23
Speaker 1: That's one thing, but perhaps even more common issue is
3:28
Speaker 1: of a sort of sexual incompatibility or a dwindling of
3:31
Speaker 1: a sexual connection, or a mismatch in sort of sexual desire,
3:38
Speaker 1: or you know you're not either you're no longer as
3:41
Speaker 1: sexually connected or attracted to your partner, or the sex
3:44
Speaker 1: you're able to have within your monogamous relationship is not
3:46
Speaker 1: quite the sex that you wish you were having. And
3:48
Speaker 1: so there's there's a whole bunch of issues at play.
3:53
Speaker 1: But what would you say some of the most common
3:57
Speaker 1: causes of any sort of amount of sexual dissatisfaction within
4:02
Speaker 1: a relationship, because many people in these situations just don't
4:05
Speaker 1: know what they can do about it or how they
4:07
Speaker 1: landed up here, you know.
4:10
Speaker 2: So I think I want to start with three basic
4:14
Speaker 2: things that I find happen. One is that we are
4:19
Speaker 2: told so consistently in certain communities and certain societies sex
4:24
Speaker 2: is a bad thing. This is an evil thing, you
4:26
Speaker 2: should never do it. I mean, it's made into this
4:29
Speaker 2: demon and you're never supposed to have sex. And then
4:32
Speaker 2: suddenly you get married and you're supposed to be ramphant.
4:36
Speaker 2: You know, you're supposed to be this lion that's going
4:38
Speaker 2: crazy in bed. You have no idea you've come from
4:40
Speaker 2: this point of being told it's really bad, and suddenly
4:44
Speaker 2: you're supposed to be doing it and enjoying it, because
4:47
Speaker 2: let's face it, you don't enjoy it, you won't want
4:49
Speaker 2: to do it again. So there is that huge issue.
4:53
Speaker 2: The second is, of course, this narrative that we have
4:56
Speaker 2: of this is girlfriend material, this is wife material. So
5:00
Speaker 2: this is the woman that I will sleep with, I
5:02
Speaker 2: can have en affair with, I can do whatever, but
5:04
Speaker 2: my wife has to be this virgin that comes to me.
5:07
Speaker 2: And the bigger problem with that is that it doesn't
5:11
Speaker 2: actually switch even after you get married, because I get
5:14
Speaker 2: so many people writing or talking to me about the
5:17
Speaker 2: fact that they can't think of their wife in those terms,
5:24
Speaker 2: and hence there is still this issue about, you know,
5:30
Speaker 2: thinking that you can actually have pleasure with that personal
5:33
Speaker 2: So that's the second thing. And the third major major
5:35
Speaker 2: issue is that, as we know, in any relationship, after
5:38
Speaker 2: a little while, things start to go down a little bit.
5:42
Speaker 2: You know, your passion that you go in with is
5:44
Speaker 2: not always going to be a bad peak. You have
5:48
Speaker 2: to work at it, and a lot of people just
5:50
Speaker 2: don't realize that that is something that they need to do.
5:56
Speaker 2: So I think those are the three biggest things that
5:58
Speaker 2: come into play, and in terms of I mean, there's
6:03
Speaker 2: a lot of things right because you and I can
6:05
Speaker 2: talk about this forever. The fact that women face pain
6:09
Speaker 2: or it becomes monotonous and boring, that's an issue that's
6:13
Speaker 2: never taken into consideration. And finally, something that's never ever
6:17
Speaker 2: talked about, but the fact that guys are just always
6:21
Speaker 2: expected to love it and be on top and be
6:26
Speaker 2: really out there and fiercely wanting it all the time,
6:30
Speaker 2: and a lot of them don't actually enjoy it in
6:33
Speaker 2: certain positions. I'm always saying how every position comes with
6:36
Speaker 2: a certain set of emotions. It's not just a bland
6:39
Speaker 2: kind of lie back and just physically feel it. It's
6:42
Speaker 2: all starts up there. So yeah, I think those are
6:46
Speaker 2: basically the things that lead to this problem.
6:51
Speaker 1: You spoke of how the baggage around what we've been
6:54
Speaker 1: taught about sex and sort of sexual shame. Most of
6:56
Speaker 1: us in here it can often be something we've read
7:00
Speaker 1: have to unback in order to have a fulfilling sexual life.
7:03
Speaker 1: Would you want to talk about the sort of unlearning
7:07
Speaker 1: you had to do when you got married.
7:10
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean there was all of that when I
7:13
Speaker 2: was young, when I was at university, we were told
7:17
Speaker 2: only fast girls enjoy sex. So the term for being
7:21
Speaker 2: not the good girl was that you were fast. So, yes,
7:24
Speaker 2: you had to have sex, but only fast girls enjoyed it.
7:29
Speaker 2: And you know, at some point, because we're taught to
7:32
Speaker 2: believe that this ideal woman status is what every woman
7:38
Speaker 2: should be aspiring to. You know, we're given platforms, we're
7:42
Speaker 2: given pedestals, and then we're told, if you can be
7:46
Speaker 2: this sort of woman, you can be worshiped as a goddess.
7:51
Speaker 2: You would be incredible, you will be the woman that
7:53
Speaker 2: would be looked up to. You know how many of
7:55
Speaker 2: us clambered onto these pedestals for ourselves because that's what
8:00
Speaker 2: we thought was expected of us. So yeah, I definitely
8:04
Speaker 2: grew up with the belief that enjoying it was not
8:07
Speaker 2: a good thing. And so you come with all the
8:09
Speaker 2: guilt because the moment you masturbate, you're like, oh my god,
8:13
Speaker 2: I enjoyed that. How dare I? And when I'm with
8:17
Speaker 2: my partner, should I be showing that I enjoyed this? Myth?
8:22
Speaker 2: Because will that make me feel more judged? There's just
8:25
Speaker 2: so much nonsense that comes with it, and I just
8:28
Speaker 2: want to say, as reading this passage again. I think
8:33
Speaker 2: it's from the twelfth century and where this woman says
8:37
Speaker 2: that she's with her partner and she's a virgin and
8:40
Speaker 2: this is her first time, but she's so passionately carried away.
8:44
Speaker 2: I mean, she's so in the floor that she really
8:46
Speaker 2: enjoys it. And the man at the end of it
8:49
Speaker 2: looks at her a scounts because he's like, well, how
8:52
Speaker 2: come you enjoyed it so much? And she sees the
8:55
Speaker 2: doubt on his face. She doesn't say anything to him,
8:58
Speaker 2: but she gets up and on the wall she makes
9:01
Speaker 2: a painting of a lioness giving birth to this baby,
9:04
Speaker 2: this cup, and the cub comes out, tortures on to
9:09
Speaker 2: its feet, looks around and understands immediately it has to
9:12
Speaker 2: hunt for its food. It says, well, you know, some
9:15
Speaker 2: things are an instinct. They come to you naturally. I
9:19
Speaker 2: was thinking, a thousand years ago, we were fighting for
9:22
Speaker 2: the fact that we can feel sexual in ourselves. We're
9:25
Speaker 2: still fighting that same battle. Nothing has changed very much.
9:28
Speaker 2: So yeah, I had to actually learn to understand that
9:31
Speaker 2: as a woman, I have the right to feel pleasure,
9:35
Speaker 2: and that is okay to feel pleasure. It's not a
9:37
Speaker 2: bad thing. And then allow myself to feel that pleasure
9:42
Speaker 2: from inside me, or to say, well, actually I enjoy this,
9:46
Speaker 2: this is what I want to do, but it took
9:47
Speaker 2: a lot to do it.
9:49
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm very privileged to be in a
9:53
Speaker 1: position where I would never have to make the decision
9:56
Speaker 1: to spend my whole life with someone without first sleeping
9:59
Speaker 1: with them, or spend my whole life with someone at all.
10:03
Speaker 1: But I recognize how much, or rather how small a
10:07
Speaker 1: minority of people in our society have that privilege. You know,
10:11
Speaker 1: most people end up having sex for the first time
10:15
Speaker 1: after marriage, and the assumption is unless things are completely insufferable,
10:19
Speaker 1: you stick with that partner. And so I think not
10:22
Speaker 1: only is the idea of sexual agency. You know, if
10:27
Speaker 1: you have desires, you must downplay them, that's one part
10:30
Speaker 1: of it. But also if you don't have like what
10:32
Speaker 1: if you're a sexual you know, you often are still
10:36
Speaker 1: in a marriage where you expected to have sex and
10:39
Speaker 1: have a kid or I mean, there's so many you know,
10:43
Speaker 1: queer people who are stuck in heterosexual marriages and can't
10:47
Speaker 1: opt out. And I often get a lot of sort
10:51
Speaker 1: of pushback for suggesting this, but I am of the
10:54
Speaker 1: opinion that we should strive towards making it more acceptable
10:58
Speaker 1: for couple to at the very least discuss their sexual
11:05
Speaker 1: preferences and desires and aptitudes before marrying each other. The
11:10
Speaker 1: idea I would say, like, let's have sex before we
11:12
Speaker 1: should start to get married. But if that's too much,
11:14
Speaker 1: if that's the baby steps, let's at least talk about it.
11:18
Speaker 1: You know, it would save all parties a lot of
11:21
Speaker 1: disappointment if we knew going in how we experience desire
11:25
Speaker 1: and arousal and whether we're a good match sexually, because
11:28
Speaker 1: it's possible that we're just not a great fit, you know,
11:31
Speaker 1: and sexual compatibility is important, but people refuse to acknowledge this.
11:34
Speaker 1: It's as if sexual compatibility will be God given or something.
11:38
Speaker 2: You know, you're just supposed to have it. It's supposed
11:41
Speaker 2: to fall into your lap. So two very interesting things. Recently, Actually,
11:46
Speaker 2: somebody wrote to me about this, saying that if it's
11:49
Speaker 2: an arranged marriage scenario, how do I approach Is it
11:53
Speaker 2: ethical to ask the person what they feel about sex?
11:57
Speaker 2: And how can I ask it? And I actually made
12:00
Speaker 2: very careful notes. I haven't done that video yet, but
12:02
Speaker 2: I made very careful notes about when you absolutely don't
12:06
Speaker 2: know somebody, How would you actually approach that conversation. You
12:11
Speaker 2: can't say, well, what do you think about sex? Because
12:14
Speaker 2: it's you know, if you don't know the other person,
12:16
Speaker 2: that doesn't come across very well. But what are the
12:18
Speaker 2: words you could use? You know, would you say, could
12:22
Speaker 2: we you know, how do you feel about physical closeness?
12:25
Speaker 2: And do you think that we should work towards it?
12:27
Speaker 2: And if the other person is truly very very conservative,
12:32
Speaker 2: possibly then you perhaps talk about boundaries. You say, okay,
12:36
Speaker 2: how would you set boundaries in the relationship? What about
12:40
Speaker 2: in this aspect? What about in this aspect? And so on?
12:43
Speaker 2: So I was trying to come up with the right
12:45
Speaker 2: kind of terminology to approach the subject. And then I thought,
12:49
Speaker 2: but actually, no matter how carefully you put it, like
12:52
Speaker 2: you just said, actually talking about your desires is so
12:57
Speaker 2: to do. It's so judged that I I think a
13:00
Speaker 2: lot of people would just not be honest about it.
13:04
Speaker 2: So I don't know whether we would get very far
13:06
Speaker 2: with this. But also have to tell you I didn't
13:08
Speaker 2: talk recently about pleasure. And when I came off that stage,
13:14
Speaker 2: I have a whole lot of the audience come and
13:16
Speaker 2: talk to me, and this young man, very young man, Lisa,
13:20
Speaker 2: very newly married, came up to me and he said, so,
13:24
Speaker 2: are you married? And I said yes, and he said
13:27
Speaker 2: are you still married? Yes? And he said, oh, do
13:31
Speaker 2: you have children? I was like yes, and he said, oh,
13:35
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I just assumed that you got divorced and
13:38
Speaker 2: then you went off to explore all this pleasure. So
13:43
Speaker 2: the idea for such a young man, such a young
13:46
Speaker 2: man who's so newly married, that it is not the
13:49
Speaker 2: wife that you explore pleasure with, that she's not for this.
13:54
Speaker 2: Do you know the number of people who write in
13:56
Speaker 2: saying my boyfriend says that he looks at other women
14:01
Speaker 2: on the internet because he respects me too much to
14:04
Speaker 2: do the things that really excite him, and hence he
14:08
Speaker 2: will do it for other women who obviously are not
14:11
Speaker 2: deserving of that respect. But it's just I mean, look
14:15
Speaker 2: at the look at the nairs over there that need
14:18
Speaker 2: to be unpacked.
14:20
Speaker 1: Yes, there's definitely the Madonna complex where somehow a woman
14:24
Speaker 1: cannot be both respectable and sexy, and your wife should
14:27
Speaker 1: be respectable and a marriage is supposed to be respectable,
14:31
Speaker 1: not sexy. Right, there's like this sort of deeply unsexy. Uh, uh,
14:36
Speaker 1: persona cast upon marriage. And I think that it's really
14:42
Speaker 1: unfortunate actually that the idea of sexual pleasure and agency
14:47
Speaker 1: and like, you know, you're supposed to actually not even
14:50
Speaker 1: experience desire, right once you're a wife and a mother.
14:52
Speaker 1: It's like the only time you're allowed too is after
14:55
Speaker 1: you're engaged in before you're married, in order to keep
14:57
Speaker 1: your husband's interest alive or something. You your same past,
15:01
Speaker 1: same religion, opposite sex husband, and then you should have
15:04
Speaker 1: a kid, and then that's it for you. Right. Moms
15:07
Speaker 1: aren't supposed to be sexy.
15:10
Speaker 2: You know, but at night, when your husband wants that sex,
15:14
Speaker 2: then you're suddenly supposed to turn into this, this lioness,
15:17
Speaker 2: this rampant lioness who is ready. And you know, it's
15:21
Speaker 2: weird how this idea of the woman who's been very
15:25
Speaker 2: pure before and now it's still very pure, but turns
15:29
Speaker 2: into this sexy siren at his command has almost been
15:36
Speaker 2: built into the purity label that you know, you become
15:43
Speaker 2: this person when that legally officially married, opposite sex husband
15:50
Speaker 2: requires you to be. It's just such a screwed up idea.
15:55
Speaker 1: It really is. And yet you know what is quite interesting,
15:58
Speaker 1: and you talked to about this a little at the beginning.
16:02
Speaker 1: I get as many messages from men as I do
16:06
Speaker 1: from women about a sense of sexual dissatisfaction in their
16:10
Speaker 1: long term relationships. So lots of men will be like,
16:12
Speaker 1: you know, my wife would never give me a blow job,
16:15
Speaker 1: or my wife doesn't seem interested in sex, or even
16:17
Speaker 1: when I want to initiate and want to give her
16:19
Speaker 1: a pleasure, she's uninterested. There's also lots of women who
16:22
Speaker 1: ale like, my husband is wonderful in so many ways,
16:26
Speaker 1: but I don't think he understands my pleasure. I've never
16:29
Speaker 1: had an orgasm. I'm married for ten years with two kids.
16:32
Speaker 1: I don't think I have ever experienced pleasure during sex
16:34
Speaker 1: with my husband. My husband cannot keep up with me.
16:39
Speaker 1: I feel like a feral animal in comparison, I am
16:41
Speaker 1: barely getting started and he's done, you know, And then
16:44
Speaker 1: so that makes me not want to have sex. We
16:46
Speaker 1: haven't had sex in five years. Do you see the
16:49
Speaker 1: same I imagine you do.
16:52
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, absolutely. I know it's so women in the
16:56
Speaker 2: in this case because of the gender inequality. I guess
17:00
Speaker 2: women saying that if they keep insisting that they want sex,
17:04
Speaker 2: that the husband then says is that all you ever
17:07
Speaker 2: think about, And a lot of them have said it
17:10
Speaker 2: upset me so much that I've just stopped asking yeah.
17:13
Speaker 1: And I mean, I guess one thing that anyone watching
17:15
Speaker 1: who is going through this can perhaps take some solace
17:19
Speaker 1: prom is that it's extremely common, like you are not
17:21
Speaker 1: alone in this issue, and perhaps by acknowledging it and
17:28
Speaker 1: hopefully talking together about it, you can try to find
17:31
Speaker 1: some ways that enhance your sense of connection and vulnerability together.
17:36
Speaker 2: Do you.
17:38
Speaker 1: Have any suggestions on how couples can in an empathetic
17:41
Speaker 1: and kind way approach this matter, because so often we're
17:45
Speaker 1: afraid of bruising a partner's ego or you know, it's
17:51
Speaker 1: a delicate matter.
17:53
Speaker 2: It's a very sensitive subject. So I always say that
17:55
Speaker 2: the way to actually, I mean we've tried to say
17:59
Speaker 2: for a long time that change the definition of sex.
18:03
Speaker 2: You know, sex is not just about penetration. I find
18:06
Speaker 2: that for a lot of people, it's the penetrative aspect
18:08
Speaker 2: of it that bothers them. For a lot of them,
18:11
Speaker 2: that's where the real problem comes in. It's boring, its monotonous,
18:16
Speaker 2: it's painful, it's the hard work for a lot of people.
18:21
Speaker 2: So changing your definition of sex would be incredible. You know,
18:26
Speaker 2: try some other stuff, make that bit longer, make it
18:30
Speaker 2: more exciting. But for that you have to obviously unlock
18:34
Speaker 2: something over here, which says we can talk about pleasure,
18:37
Speaker 2: we can discuss things that we might actually like. But
18:40
Speaker 2: I always also say that the way to bring sex
18:43
Speaker 2: back into a marriage is not by demanding sex, because
18:47
Speaker 2: if you get ready cross and you say, but I
18:49
Speaker 2: want the sex, the other person will do it just
18:51
Speaker 2: to keep you happy for a bit. But there are
18:53
Speaker 2: so many reasons why they don't want to have penetrative
18:56
Speaker 2: sex in the first place. So if you're not addressed that, unfortunately,
19:01
Speaker 2: it's not going to make the situation any better. My
19:05
Speaker 2: first suggestion always is, and I think that a lot
19:09
Speaker 2: of people don't do this, is get comfortable being naked
19:15
Speaker 2: together without actually having sex. So find yourself sometime once
19:22
Speaker 2: a week, twice a week, three times a week, whatever
19:25
Speaker 2: where you spend fifteen minutes. Put a time around if
19:28
Speaker 2: that's what you want, fifteen minutes in bed together, not
19:32
Speaker 2: having sex, not even getting all hot and heavy about it,
19:35
Speaker 2: Lie down naked next to each other and cuddle and
19:39
Speaker 2: talk about work, talk about the emails that you didn't send,
19:42
Speaker 2: talk about the lunch you went for, whatever, Just talk
19:45
Speaker 2: about ordinary stuff. But get to get reacquainted with the
19:50
Speaker 2: feel of each other's skin. You know, so many of
19:54
Speaker 2: us forget what the other person just feels like, the warmth,
19:58
Speaker 2: the comfort, or just being with each other naked in
20:02
Speaker 2: each other's arms, just that. But I want to basically
20:06
Speaker 2: say that the most important thing over here is you
20:10
Speaker 2: take sex off the table, because I know a lot
20:14
Speaker 2: of people who don't want to have sex, but they
20:17
Speaker 2: want to have that guddle, they want to kiss, they
20:19
Speaker 2: want to do other things, but they feel that if
20:21
Speaker 2: they get to that point, the partner is then going
20:23
Speaker 2: to say, well, we're here now, we may as well
20:24
Speaker 2: have sex. So it's very, very important you take that
20:29
Speaker 2: off the table. I'd say, Okay, we're definitely not having
20:33
Speaker 2: penetrative sex, let's have this cuddle first, let's actually get reacquainted.
20:38
Speaker 2: Let's build up that desire from within us. So I
20:41
Speaker 2: think that's something that is really really important to do
20:45
Speaker 2: because also, like I said, for so many people, there's
20:48
Speaker 2: almost this pressure because it feels like so much work.
20:53
Speaker 2: You know, It's like I'm tired, I'm stressed, I can't
20:56
Speaker 2: think of doing this, I can't fly them on top
20:59
Speaker 2: and sort of, you know, put myself through all that effort.
21:02
Speaker 2: It's seen as a chore leaser for so many people.
21:05
Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, building up regardless of gender, regardless agenda.
21:12
Speaker 2: And I think that actually, because men are never allowed
21:15
Speaker 2: to say that it's not something that they enjoy, this
21:20
Speaker 2: becomes the go to excuse. It's a real chow for
21:23
Speaker 2: so many of them. I interviewed this young queer male
21:29
Speaker 2: sex worker recently and he said, you would not believe
21:33
Speaker 2: the number of men, men in really powerful, important decision
21:38
Speaker 2: making positions, who come to him to have sex at
21:42
Speaker 2: where they can be at the bottom, but they can
21:46
Speaker 2: just give up this idea of being in charge and
21:48
Speaker 2: just lie down and feel the pleasure.
21:52
Speaker 1: I suppose being able to relinquish control can also be
21:56
Speaker 1: very arousing. Communicating about what it is that turns you on,
22:02
Speaker 1: and I meet many women who wish they could, you know,
22:05
Speaker 1: some while of course, this woman who finds sex to
22:08
Speaker 1: be a show, and it often comes from their own
22:09
Speaker 1: pleasure being neglected, and because they haven't had a partner
22:14
Speaker 1: prioritize that pleasure sufficiently that penetration becomes seen as a
22:17
Speaker 1: sight of beauty, pain and shame instead of a side
22:20
Speaker 1: of pleasure. You know, if somebody spends like half an
22:24
Speaker 1: hour on four play and then ensures this literal stimulation
22:27
Speaker 1: during penetration, many women can really enjoy it. And there's
22:30
Speaker 1: also women who will say, like, I wish we could
22:34
Speaker 1: have sex for longer and you know, more penetration, even
22:38
Speaker 1: to every each it's hard to generalize the problem, right,
22:42
Speaker 1: although the over arching sense of like, within this relationship,
22:46
Speaker 1: I don't feel sexually fulfilled, maybe the common threat. There's
22:51
Speaker 1: so many permutations and combinations of what the dissonance between
22:55
Speaker 1: what you want and what you're getting might feel like.
22:59
Speaker 1: But I do also wonder whether to some extent, our
23:07
Speaker 1: inability to ask for what we want makes this like
23:12
Speaker 1: an even bigger problem than it is. So perhaps we'd
23:17
Speaker 1: all benefit also from coming to terms with and acknowledging
23:20
Speaker 1: our desires. Like do you think that, particularly for women,
23:24
Speaker 1: even just familiarizing yourself with your own body, arousal and
23:28
Speaker 1: desire can make this easier?
23:32
Speaker 2: Oh? God? Yeah, we both know that that unless you
23:34
Speaker 2: know where your pleasure points are, You know, I keep
23:38
Speaker 2: saying to people that, yes, the clitterist is a pleasure organ.
23:43
Speaker 2: But everybody likes their clitterists touched differently. So frankly, if
23:47
Speaker 2: you touch my clitterusts a certain way, which is just
23:49
Speaker 2: going to give me anxiety, which it can because it's
23:51
Speaker 2: a very sensitive organ, I won't want you to do
23:54
Speaker 2: it again, you know, and it can. It can make
23:57
Speaker 2: a lot of women feel really uncomfortable. So we really
24:00
Speaker 2: need to know what we like. But I think the
24:03
Speaker 2: first thing is there's a lot of women who and
24:06
Speaker 2: a lot of men who really know what they want.
24:08
Speaker 2: They will try and communicate to their partner, but they
24:10
Speaker 2: get judged for it, and I think that's the next thing.
24:14
Speaker 2: So again one of the things I get from people is, oh,
24:18
Speaker 2: this is against our culture. And again I have been
24:21
Speaker 2: pulling out verses from our ancient text just to say no,
24:26
Speaker 2: it isn't. I brought out this beautiful verse again. I
24:29
Speaker 2: think I can't remember what, probably one thousand and eighty,
24:34
Speaker 2: where it says that the guy says to his wife
24:37
Speaker 2: he says, today, I'll be the woman and you be
24:40
Speaker 2: the man, and she says, no way, I won't do that,
24:43
Speaker 2: but immediately takes off her bangles and puts them on him. So,
24:49
Speaker 2: you know, just this idea of acknowledging that sometimes you
24:53
Speaker 2: just want to switch roles, you want to feel differently.
24:59
Speaker 2: Every position, like I said, comes with its own emotions,
25:03
Speaker 2: its own energies, and we need to acknowledge that, and
25:07
Speaker 2: sometimes the energy of a particular position just doesn't do
25:10
Speaker 2: it for you. Again, you know, the Kamsutra has these
25:14
Speaker 2: incredible ideas, so women had this one are the sixty
25:19
Speaker 2: four skills actually of the cam Sutra, which is known
25:22
Speaker 2: as the shayan retinum, or the art of making the bed,
25:25
Speaker 2: where women could make the beds. They could fold down
25:28
Speaker 2: their sheets in such a way as to let that
25:30
Speaker 2: partner know whether they were welcoming him there that day
25:33
Speaker 2: with happiness, with anger, or with indifference. So it depended
25:37
Speaker 2: on how you're feeling. So it was important for you
25:40
Speaker 2: to know how you felt. Now you've communicated it to
25:43
Speaker 2: your partner non verbally, and it's up to them now
25:46
Speaker 2: to approach you according to how you're feeling. Is that
25:50
Speaker 2: just so important because every day you are feeling different.
25:54
Speaker 2: Men had this thing of they were supposed to shape
25:58
Speaker 2: their nails in a certain way. So if you were
26:00
Speaker 2: very high energy, very high sexual energy, you shaped your
26:03
Speaker 2: nails in three points like a saw almost. If you
26:08
Speaker 2: were medium energy, you shaped it in the you know,
26:11
Speaker 2: like parrots peak one flaw. And if you were really
26:14
Speaker 2: low sexual energy, you had sort of flat almost like
26:17
Speaker 2: a crescent moon, and that showed your partner to be
26:23
Speaker 2: what your sexual energy was. If you were visiting a
26:26
Speaker 2: courches and for instance or whatever, that showed them what
26:30
Speaker 2: your desires were, like, what your energy is like, and
26:34
Speaker 2: they then approached you in a certain way. I think
26:37
Speaker 2: it's so incredible that we had these little details to
26:41
Speaker 2: communicate our desires our feelings more than our desires and
26:45
Speaker 2: feelings are energies.
26:47
Speaker 1: I love that.
26:48
Speaker 2: And then you know you came together according to what
26:54
Speaker 2: felt right for both of you.
26:56
Speaker 1: And let's talk a little more about the factors out
27:00
Speaker 1: of the bedroom that's so so often sort of do
27:04
Speaker 1: impact how we feel within the bedroom, or our willingness
27:09
Speaker 1: and openness to sexual connection. I find that, for example,
27:14
Speaker 1: if my partner has been negligent or disrespectful or sort
27:20
Speaker 1: of angry in that masculine way that I find insufferable
27:24
Speaker 1: for no good reason, I have absolutely zero desire to
27:28
Speaker 1: be sexual, absolutely zero. And I could have been sexual
27:31
Speaker 1: like I could be ovulating, like positively fairer, but you
27:34
Speaker 1: have ended it by being disrespectful to me or by
27:38
Speaker 1: neglecting to do this obvious thing that you were meant
27:41
Speaker 1: to do to make me feel cared for because you need,
27:44
Speaker 1: you know, you would do you know what I mean.
27:47
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know exactly what.
27:50
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think I do. I do. It's not
27:55
Speaker 2: just for your partner and actually the sex that you
27:59
Speaker 2: might be having. Even if there is somebody that you
28:02
Speaker 2: fantasize about regularly, and if it's somebody that you know,
28:07
Speaker 2: and if you use that sort of fantasy for your
28:09
Speaker 2: pleasure moments, if they do something to put you off,
28:13
Speaker 2: you go off wanting to fantasize about it. I mean,
28:15
Speaker 2: they actually destroy your desire to think about them during
28:19
Speaker 2: your points of pleasure. So yeah, I totally know what
28:22
Speaker 2: you mean.
28:23
Speaker 1: And I think we don't sort of think about that enough, Like,
28:26
Speaker 1: what are all of the things that have happened today
28:29
Speaker 1: or in the month, or in the year or in
28:31
Speaker 1: the last ten years that have impacted my ability to
28:34
Speaker 1: connect with you sexually? Because I think resentment builds. I
28:38
Speaker 1: think you know, there's so many small dismissals, small microaggressions
28:44
Speaker 1: or acts of disrespect or a lack of care that
28:48
Speaker 1: can accrue over Time's that eventually this person who you
28:52
Speaker 1: thought you once desired and love just seems like your roommate.
28:56
Speaker 1: Now you know who you happen to be stuck with
28:59
Speaker 1: because you pay rent and have whatever shared a shared ecosystem,
29:04
Speaker 1: but you don't actually feel a sense of you don't
29:06
Speaker 1: even think that they see you in all your expansiveness.
29:09
Speaker 1: It's very hard to want to connect sexually with someone
29:11
Speaker 1: who doesn't make you feel seen and cared for and
29:14
Speaker 1: valued and respected. And at least that's my experience, and
29:17
Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people in marriages that
29:21
Speaker 1: tends to.
29:22
Speaker 2: Occur with everybody.
29:24
Speaker 1: There's this sort of distance that comes over time because
29:28
Speaker 1: there's so much else also factoring into your life as
29:31
Speaker 1: a couple. Right it's family and work and in laws
29:34
Speaker 1: and kids and household shows and work, stress and money
29:38
Speaker 1: and like all this really unsexy stuff that takes such
29:40
Speaker 1: a toll. It's kind of hard not to crumble for
29:43
Speaker 1: the sexiness, not to crumble under the weight of all
29:46
Speaker 1: of that. And I wonder whether there's more that we
29:51
Speaker 1: can do on a daily basis so that it's not
29:54
Speaker 1: five years in where you haven't had sex for the
29:56
Speaker 1: last sixteen months, that you know, like you're trying to
30:00
Speaker 1: fix things. Instead you actively working on maintaining a balance
30:05
Speaker 1: from the get go because it takes work, right, it's
30:09
Speaker 1: not Love and desire are not magic. They're active and
30:15
Speaker 1: you have.
30:15
Speaker 2: To work for them. Yeah. This is another thing that
30:18
Speaker 2: I fight against a lot because you get so many
30:20
Speaker 2: youngsters going, oh, no, what do you mean you have
30:23
Speaker 2: to work towards it or this should be natural. There's
30:27
Speaker 2: nothing natural about love and desire. It has to be
30:29
Speaker 2: worked on very, very carefully if you want it for
30:33
Speaker 2: the long term. Yeah. So interestingly, a few months ago,
30:37
Speaker 2: I was in India and I was driving from Dehraduna
30:41
Speaker 2: Airport rurisification and the driver, my driver, who started to
30:46
Speaker 2: chat to me and he was saying about, you know,
30:50
Speaker 2: his work not going so well, and then he was
30:52
Speaker 2: talking about how his wife's health has been a certain
30:54
Speaker 2: way anyway. He talked about various things, and then he
30:57
Speaker 2: said he said, you know, but my wife is the
30:59
Speaker 2: most lovely human being. I adore her. And then he
31:03
Speaker 2: went on to say that you know, we love each
31:06
Speaker 2: other so much, doesn't matter what happens, but we never
31:09
Speaker 2: ever say a crossword to each other, Like, if I
31:12
Speaker 2: think she's doing something wrong, I'll tell her really lovingly.
31:15
Speaker 2: She feels I'm doing something wrong, she will tell me
31:17
Speaker 2: really lovingly. And we just always make sure that that
31:21
Speaker 2: love is always there because she is such a wonderful person.
31:25
Speaker 2: And I almost burst into tears because I thought, God,
31:28
Speaker 2: how many people could actually use that lesson. I spent
31:33
Speaker 2: years with my husband, who is a typical North Indian.
31:39
Speaker 2: You're now seventy two, so he's literally from that era
31:43
Speaker 2: where you know, a man's role is an an's role
31:47
Speaker 2: saying to him, sorry, but you spoke to me like
31:49
Speaker 2: this yesterday and I just don't feel like being in
31:52
Speaker 2: bed with you. Sorry, I'm not turned on? And could
31:56
Speaker 2: he get it? No, It's like, what do you mean?
31:58
Speaker 2: I mean, because it didn't matter what he had said.
32:00
Speaker 2: He was always ready for it, always noticed when I
32:03
Speaker 2: was annoyed with him. But you spoke to you know,
32:06
Speaker 2: But yeah, you know. I just feel that if we
32:10
Speaker 2: could be respectful, I think far more than love, it's respect.
32:14
Speaker 2: You need that respect with each other from each other.
32:18
Speaker 2: And I always say that I think one of the
32:20
Speaker 2: best ways to build up a bond is to do
32:24
Speaker 2: stuff outside of the outside of the house together. So
32:30
Speaker 2: when you go on a date, don't do your typical
32:33
Speaker 2: candle lit dinner where you sit across the table from
32:37
Speaker 2: each other and there's all this pressure because oh my god,
32:40
Speaker 2: this is a romantic candlelight dinner. What the hell do
32:42
Speaker 2: we talk about? And you end up talking about the
32:43
Speaker 2: children Instead, Go on an activity date. Learn to spend
32:49
Speaker 2: time with each other. Learn to do stuff that makes
32:51
Speaker 2: you think, I'm really enjoying the time I spent with
32:55
Speaker 2: my partner. We went on a hike together. We had
32:58
Speaker 2: so much fun doing this. It creates that bond. You
33:01
Speaker 2: want to come back and you want to hang out
33:03
Speaker 2: and talk about things that you did, and that then
33:06
Speaker 2: leads to the next bit. You know, sexual chemistry doesn't
33:10
Speaker 2: just drop from the heavens. We believe sexual chemistry is
33:14
Speaker 2: just that first little bit when you first see somebody
33:17
Speaker 2: and you get an instant direction or you get that
33:19
Speaker 2: instant sort of jump to your heart. That's not just
33:23
Speaker 2: sexual chemistry. Sexual chemistry comes in so many different forms.
33:28
Speaker 2: But it's like everything else. We're given one definition for everything,
33:31
Speaker 2: and they're very expected to live in that one definition.
33:34
Speaker 2: And when that one definition doesn't turn out right, then
33:37
Speaker 2: it's like there's nothing that.
33:40
Speaker 1: And our relationship to sex can also evolve over time.
33:44
Speaker 1: The sort of sex that you may want in your
33:47
Speaker 1: twenties might be a bit different from in your thirties.
33:51
Speaker 2: It's completely different, and by the time you're in your sixties,
33:54
Speaker 2: it's very different.
33:55
Speaker 1: And I think that kids are another factor that can
33:59
Speaker 1: take a toll on the sexual life of a couple.
34:04
Speaker 1: It's often cited as one of the things that makes
34:06
Speaker 1: it quite hard, especially when you have a very young kid.
34:09
Speaker 1: Just practically speaking, there's like this little creature that needs
34:11
Speaker 1: your attention all the time, including at night. You know,
34:14
Speaker 1: maybe you don't have a home big enough for the
34:16
Speaker 1: kid to have a separate room. And there's so many
34:18
Speaker 1: factors to consider, especially in India way so often you
34:22
Speaker 1: live with your whole extended family, like privacy is such
34:25
Speaker 1: a scarce commodity. What has your experience been in that
34:30
Speaker 1: regard And do you have any tips for couples who
34:33
Speaker 1: are struggling to sort of rebuild a sense of sexiness
34:38
Speaker 1: and intimacy after having a baby.
34:41
Speaker 2: So yes, definitely, I think it is really important to
34:47
Speaker 2: maintain some thread of that. So, like I said, you know,
34:51
Speaker 2: I think that for most women, at least after childbirth,
34:55
Speaker 2: your body is so exhausted, and frankly, it can continue
34:58
Speaker 2: to be exhausted for a while. It's not that Okay,
35:01
Speaker 2: I've had the child now and I've had my forty
35:03
Speaker 2: days of rest. Now I'm your body doesn't feel up
35:06
Speaker 2: to it. You are mentally, emotionally and physically exhausted, So
35:12
Speaker 2: you definitely don't want the pressure of being told that
35:16
Speaker 2: you have to have penetrative sex, and you may not
35:20
Speaker 2: want anything more than just your hand being held or
35:22
Speaker 2: a kiss or whatever. I think that it's really important
35:26
Speaker 2: at this point for your partner to understand that there
35:29
Speaker 2: needs to be a lack of pressure put on you.
35:32
Speaker 2: And it's really weird at least. I just don't want
35:33
Speaker 2: to also to say that, as somebody who has been
35:35
Speaker 2: pregnant three times. During my pregnancies, my libido would go
35:41
Speaker 2: soaring through the roof. It was so high. I was
35:45
Speaker 2: so when I was pregnant. Back then, there was no
35:49
Speaker 2: Internet to sort of play with in those days. Pond
35:52
Speaker 2: was a lot more difficult to access, but written erotica.
35:58
Speaker 2: My friends were just buying me books on erotica that
36:03
Speaker 2: my reading I read those books a million times over
36:07
Speaker 2: because I just needed it. I needed it so much.
36:10
Speaker 2: You have the child, and so at this point your
36:12
Speaker 2: husband is really really nervous because you're like, oh my god,
36:14
Speaker 2: you're pregnant. I don't know if I can have sex
36:16
Speaker 2: with you. And then you finish and now he's waiting
36:19
Speaker 2: and you're like, no, now, I can't do this. So
36:22
Speaker 2: it is a mess. It is a physical, hor modal mess,
36:26
Speaker 2: but it is also the reality of what you go through.
36:29
Speaker 2: And I think it is so important to understand that
36:35
Speaker 2: she is going to be at this point, very very tired.
36:38
Speaker 2: You can't actually deal with that. One of the things
36:41
Speaker 2: that I really do recommend for people who need sex
36:44
Speaker 2: at that point is you can't do it if she's
36:48
Speaker 2: not up to it. Don't force it, because my god,
36:51
Speaker 2: that's not going to lead to a good result. Audio
36:54
Speaker 2: erotica is a great thing to actually play, lie down
36:58
Speaker 2: and play together. Even if you don't end up having sex,
37:01
Speaker 2: you both do feel like you have come together, like
37:06
Speaker 2: literally you've shared that moment and come together. You need
37:09
Speaker 2: to find these things to do, but it is very
37:11
Speaker 2: important to actually hang on to it because from a
37:14
Speaker 2: woman's point of view, you're just tired. You're like, go away,
37:20
Speaker 2: I don't want to know anything more about this. But somewhere,
37:23
Speaker 2: as the kids start to get older, you need to
37:25
Speaker 2: keep that contact somewhere the thread, because reigniting that spark
37:32
Speaker 2: after many, many years is extremely difficult. If there hasn't
37:36
Speaker 2: been some fire would left over there.
37:39
Speaker 1: I think that also recognizing all the ways that you
37:42
Speaker 1: can sort of fulfill your own need for sexual pleasure,
37:48
Speaker 1: because you know, to some extent, it's also like scratching
37:51
Speaker 1: an inch, right, So, whether it's audio erotica or self
37:54
Speaker 1: pleasure of any kind, whatever you like. I think at
37:58
Speaker 1: least if you're able to recognize that you have the
38:02
Speaker 1: capacity to perform that self soothing behavior and look after
38:06
Speaker 1: your own base level requirement, you can operate from a
38:09
Speaker 1: place of not feeling hungry, do you know what I mean?
38:13
Speaker 1: I think to some extent, people are so frustrated because
38:16
Speaker 1: somehow they see their partner as the only viable source
38:19
Speaker 1: of fulfillment for this need, when actually, whether you're single
38:23
Speaker 1: or in a relationship or whatever, nobody owes you this thing, right.
38:28
Speaker 1: It's sad that in our laws it's codified in such
38:30
Speaker 1: a way that it's almost like the wife owes the
38:32
Speaker 1: husband sex. Marital rape is not even recognized as a
38:36
Speaker 1: crime here. So I think that this sense of entitlement
38:41
Speaker 1: is something that doesn't serve us at all. If you
38:44
Speaker 1: just feel entitled to something, you don't do enough to
38:46
Speaker 1: keep that spark alive or that firewood that you mentioned, right,
38:51
Speaker 1: and then you hold it against the person that they're
38:53
Speaker 1: withholding this thing from you when I think agency is
38:56
Speaker 1: so central to sexual fulfillment being something both parties feel
39:01
Speaker 1: and field committed to sustaining. And I actually think also
39:07
Speaker 1: while a lot of the things technology provides can be
39:10
Speaker 1: very beneficial in this regard, whether it's erotica toys or
39:14
Speaker 1: ethical pawn or whatever it is, and people should explore
39:17
Speaker 1: and see what they can do to meet their own
39:22
Speaker 1: needs if they're in a situation where their sexual needs
39:24
Speaker 1: are not being met, I also think that technology can
39:27
Speaker 1: be a very detrimental aspect to relationships. Like your phone
39:31
Speaker 1: is competing for your attention. Couples get into bed and
39:34
Speaker 1: they're on their phone. You know, both parties not posite
39:38
Speaker 1: directions looking at their phone. Right, I've been there.
39:42
Speaker 2: Don't we we make our bed on sexy? Don't we
39:47
Speaker 2: we make it on sexy.
39:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the and how can any human
39:52
Speaker 1: being compete with the level of stimulation that the device
39:56
Speaker 1: can provide? Right, you can consume new pieces of media
39:59
Speaker 1: every second, one more entertaining then the next, and then
40:03
Speaker 1: news and recipes and movies, and it's just like this
40:06
Speaker 1: overstimulation machine. And I feel that actually technology has left
40:11
Speaker 1: me feeling a little dead inside sometimes where you just
40:15
Speaker 1: two hours have passed and you're still scrolling on your
40:17
Speaker 1: phone and now you're too tired to be intimate, and
40:20
Speaker 1: so now you're just going to go to bed, and
40:22
Speaker 1: you both just watched your own things and instead of connecting,
40:25
Speaker 1: putting away that phone, making eye contact, really talking because
40:28
Speaker 1: you're so tired after a long day, and this phone
40:31
Speaker 1: is something you associate with some sort of like and
40:34
Speaker 1: I'm not even watching porn, okay, I'm talking like Instagram
40:36
Speaker 1: or my emails or Shopify or whatever. And it can
40:40
Speaker 1: be so difficult actually to have the discipline to shut down,
40:44
Speaker 1: to give yourself like a few hours when you've decided
40:47
Speaker 1: this is the end of my work day and phone
40:50
Speaker 1: and all of this stuff. And I'm really honoring the
40:52
Speaker 1: fact that we need sort of a bridge period to
40:56
Speaker 1: connect to even get to a place where we feel
40:58
Speaker 1: like being intimate.
41:00
Speaker 2: Do you know what the comes Through recommends for this,
41:02
Speaker 2: It's really interesting. It says that, you know, a lot
41:05
Speaker 2: of people tend to jump into sex, so it's like, okay,
41:07
Speaker 2: well we've decided we'll have sex. Now I'm going to
41:09
Speaker 2: kiss you a little bit and a bit of four player,
41:11
Speaker 2: and then it's straight down to penetration. It says before
41:14
Speaker 2: you actually start anything, before you even start the kissing,
41:18
Speaker 2: you have to sit and exchange stories. So they talk
41:21
Speaker 2: about it in terms of stories where you exchange naughty
41:24
Speaker 2: stories or gossip, anything that makes you kind of go.
41:30
Speaker 2: That shifts your brain from whatever you were doing earlier,
41:34
Speaker 2: and it brings you into the present with your partner.
41:37
Speaker 2: You can now created a connection where you've been together,
41:41
Speaker 2: you've forgotten for a little while whatever was going on outside.
41:45
Speaker 2: And I think that's such a clever idea. You know
41:47
Speaker 2: that that bridge period that you were talking about, You've
41:51
Speaker 2: got to come back from whatever it is that you
41:54
Speaker 2: were doing in the outside world and actually focus. And
41:56
Speaker 2: I think that yes, you could potentially have fewer days
42:01
Speaker 2: of sex in the week, but schedule it. Schedule it
42:06
Speaker 2: and say this is my day for sex with you,
42:09
Speaker 2: and then make an effort. In ancient times, we hear
42:12
Speaker 2: constantly about how when you went to make love, you
42:17
Speaker 2: dressed for it, you ornamented yourself. You thought of it
42:21
Speaker 2: as something special and beautiful, and you got excited. And
42:25
Speaker 2: it's very much like before you come to live together.
42:28
Speaker 2: You go on a date. You know, you schedule it,
42:30
Speaker 2: you dress up, you want to look your best. It
42:33
Speaker 2: is all the effort that went into something that you
42:37
Speaker 2: are looking forward to doing. We don't today. We tend
42:41
Speaker 2: to look at it as something like, okay, fine, we
42:44
Speaker 2: having sex. Let me go and watch my face. Put
42:46
Speaker 2: off the light. But you know we all do that,
42:48
Speaker 2: put it on an old night, and then yeah, I'm
42:51
Speaker 2: in bed all right here I am.
42:52
Speaker 1: Don't check your phone right after. Also, yeah, please.
42:56
Speaker 2: Leave it be turn it off. But yeah, there is
42:59
Speaker 2: this thing. So many people will kind of be like, oh,
43:03
Speaker 2: but those messages are waiting, and I keep saying to people,
43:05
Speaker 2: you know, when we had lockdown, when we had COVID,
43:08
Speaker 2: the world shut down and life continued in the same way.
43:13
Speaker 2: If you don't look at your phone for let's say,
43:15
Speaker 2: one hour, it's going to be okay, give it an hour, like, honestly,
43:20
Speaker 2: the messages will still be over there.
43:22
Speaker 1: Be present, right, be present.
43:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, be present, and make yourself be present with different
43:29
Speaker 2: rituals but doing different things. Get ready for this bathe
43:34
Speaker 2: put on perfume. I don't know, do anything that you
43:36
Speaker 2: think makes it more special, but do that because each
43:41
Speaker 2: little act makes you a little bit more present. But
43:46
Speaker 2: it does really come back to the desire to do it. It
43:50
Speaker 2: really does eventually come down to, yeah, I'll do it
43:53
Speaker 2: this time, which was our anniversary, and I want to
43:56
Speaker 2: do it for hours. But tomorrow's not my anniversary, and
43:59
Speaker 2: I don't want to feel that I want to make
44:01
Speaker 2: the effort anymore. I've got other things to think about,
44:04
Speaker 2: and I think, yes, you can have any number of
44:08
Speaker 2: relationships that do not have sex, but the bond that
44:13
Speaker 2: this brings for you cannot be replicated by anything else,
44:20
Speaker 2: and it is a worthwhile bond. It is really a
44:23
Speaker 2: worthwhile bond to have.
44:25
Speaker 1: As we near the end of our hour, I want
44:29
Speaker 1: to ask just two questions for we close, and one
44:34
Speaker 1: is that I think a lot of people also overestimate
44:37
Speaker 1: how much sex other couples are having, you know, like, oh,
44:39
Speaker 1: we only have sex, like twice a month. I'm sure
44:42
Speaker 1: all these other couples must be having sex every day.
44:46
Speaker 1: So can we talk a little bit about sexual frequency.
44:48
Speaker 1: How while on average it's something like once a week
44:51
Speaker 1: or something at most for couples, the largest group falls
44:56
Speaker 1: into that, I think statistically and whatever information is available
44:59
Speaker 1: from global but also it's there is no one single
45:03
Speaker 1: formula for this, right And how can couples arrive at
45:09
Speaker 1: a sort of sense of contentment around the sex they're having?
45:12
Speaker 1: Is it a quality over quantity thing according to you?
45:16
Speaker 1: And also how can they get to a point where
45:19
Speaker 1: there's an understanding of each other's aspiration for that?
45:24
Speaker 2: So I think that we overuse the word communication, but
45:29
Speaker 2: we don't think about its meaning enough. And I think
45:31
Speaker 2: communication is key. You know, we use that word a lot,
45:35
Speaker 2: we throw it around a lot. It is so important
45:39
Speaker 2: to have that conversation to see how you're feeling. And
45:43
Speaker 2: like I said, even if you say okay, once a
45:45
Speaker 2: week is what we're managing to do, make it count
45:51
Speaker 2: the rest of the time. It's you may be too tired,
45:55
Speaker 2: do the cuddle, do all the other stuff that goes
45:58
Speaker 2: with it that keeps the fire burning. But if you
46:02
Speaker 2: feel that there isn't enough time for that. It's going
46:04
Speaker 2: to put a strain on your time, or your relationship
46:09
Speaker 2: or your annoyance levels. Maybe sometimes don't do it more
46:13
Speaker 2: than that, but make it count, make it pleasurable, make
46:16
Speaker 2: it really fun, make it something that. I always say
46:19
Speaker 2: that the way that you finish this time depends on
46:22
Speaker 2: how quickly you come to each other's bed the next time.
46:26
Speaker 2: So we always remember an incident either by its peak,
46:29
Speaker 2: you know, at the point where it was at its best,
46:32
Speaker 2: or by the way something finishes. And most of us
46:36
Speaker 2: will remember something by the way that it finishes, how
46:41
Speaker 2: you felt at the end. And I think that it
46:44
Speaker 2: is so important to remind yourself of these little things.
46:48
Speaker 2: If that feels really good, whatever you're doing at the end,
46:51
Speaker 2: extend it a little bit more. I think it's called
46:53
Speaker 2: the refractory period, isn't it the period after sex? And
47:00
Speaker 2: really important again, Be comes with three says that at
47:02
Speaker 2: this point it is really important for both partners. When
47:05
Speaker 2: you finish, you go away separately, get cleaned up, changed,
47:10
Speaker 2: and then you come back together because it gives you
47:14
Speaker 2: that time to reset yourself, to press that reset button.
47:18
Speaker 2: Because everybody finishes differently, everybody feels different at the end
47:21
Speaker 2: of it, but you know, if you're coming back together
47:24
Speaker 2: to then have your meal, to then cuddle to then
47:27
Speaker 2: exchange stories and conversations, it's something that you're going to
47:31
Speaker 2: look forward to. And I think that that's what makes
47:35
Speaker 2: as you go into a long term relationship. As you're together,
47:40
Speaker 2: different things become more important for your sexual pleasure. And
47:43
Speaker 2: I think one of the things is those moments of
47:46
Speaker 2: feeling really loved and cherished that you spend together. So
47:49
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, that's extremely important.
47:53
Speaker 1: My final question, and it's a difficult one. I guess
47:56
Speaker 1: some people might not like this question, but I'm of
47:59
Speaker 1: the opinion that sexual incompatibility is valid grounds to end
48:03
Speaker 1: a relationship if you don't see this working out. I
48:07
Speaker 1: think it's worth trying and trying with intention and sincere
48:13
Speaker 1: attempt at salvaging things if you do enjoy being together
48:17
Speaker 1: enough to try, But it is also okay to opt out.
48:21
Speaker 1: I'm of the opinion, what do you think. I think
48:22
Speaker 1: there's very little support for people who feel that way.
48:26
Speaker 2: I think that we need to actually say this out
48:29
Speaker 2: in words, because Lisa, a lot of people do in
48:34
Speaker 2: effect opt out of the relationship by having affairs. People
48:38
Speaker 2: do sometimes feel that they need to stay together because
48:41
Speaker 2: of shared finances, kids, etc. But they will go and
48:45
Speaker 2: find other ways of doing this. And I think there
48:48
Speaker 2: are people who would like to end a relationship because
48:52
Speaker 2: of sexual incompatibility and try and find somebody that they
48:55
Speaker 2: might feel better with. Whether that means that they're having
49:00
Speaker 2: roaring sex is not really the point, but just that
49:02
Speaker 2: you know, you and I both know that sexual compatibility
49:06
Speaker 2: can mean so much more than just somebody who has
49:09
Speaker 2: benetitive sex. It is respecting the other person's boundaries, desires, needs,
49:15
Speaker 2: satisfaction levels, et cetera. All of that comes into it.
49:18
Speaker 2: So I think, yes, it is definitely something that people
49:24
Speaker 2: should be able to consider. I think that society doesn't
49:28
Speaker 2: look at us very kindly when we say something like this, because,
49:31
Speaker 2: like we said at the beginning, marriage is supposed to
49:34
Speaker 2: be this un sexy institution that is just meant to
49:37
Speaker 2: be about duty and responsibility and not about pleasure and happiness.
49:42
Speaker 2: That's a little optional extra. If you get it, you're lucky. Otherwise, well, top,
49:49
Speaker 2: I know that I'm with her and I did a
49:51
Speaker 2: podcast on this some time ago, and with us said, well, actually,
49:55
Speaker 2: if you cannot find sexual satisfaction with your partner, and
50:00
Speaker 2: having tried, your partner says absolutely no, I'm sorry, I'm
50:02
Speaker 2: not even going to go there. Then the other person
50:05
Speaker 2: is completely justified even in seeking a pleasure elsewhere outside
50:09
Speaker 2: of the relationship. So I don't think that we should
50:13
Speaker 2: be putting down boxes around people. I think that different
50:17
Speaker 2: things matter to different people, And if sexual compatibility is
50:23
Speaker 2: really important to you, then I see no reason why
50:26
Speaker 2: you should have to spend a lifetime not having sexual
50:31
Speaker 2: pleasure because you would delta particular hand.
50:35
Speaker 1: Thank you, Sema. I completely agree, and I think that
50:41
Speaker 1: we might have raised them eyebrow at the end of
50:43
Speaker 1: this episode, but I just want to say that it's
50:45
Speaker 1: not that we're trying to encourage any sort of dishonesty.
50:48
Speaker 1: And I think that we've been saying all through that
50:50
Speaker 1: it is so important for people to be able to
50:52
Speaker 1: talk about this stuff, to talk about the stuff. But
50:55
Speaker 1: I can also emphathize with how profoundly alone you can
50:59
Speaker 1: feel when you feel this deep sense of an absence
51:04
Speaker 1: of this sort of fulfillment and it feels like you
51:07
Speaker 1: are never going to get it despite your best efforts,
51:10
Speaker 1: you know, And so I hope that with kindness and empathy.
51:13
Speaker 1: Couples can choose to part ways when you realize maybe
51:17
Speaker 1: this was just not the right fit in this regard,
51:20
Speaker 1: you know, I mean on.
51:22
Speaker 2: A personal level, I will tell you I've been married
51:25
Speaker 2: almost forty years. Forty years of relationship. You go through
51:29
Speaker 2: a lot of troughscent peaks. You know, it's nothing is
51:33
Speaker 2: going to be a smooth sailing. And we did go
51:35
Speaker 2: through a period where things became very bad. For the matter,
51:39
Speaker 2: the relationship was not going well, and it certainly showed
51:44
Speaker 2: up in our sex life. You know, it wasn't something
51:47
Speaker 2: that either of us found satisfying or good or even
51:51
Speaker 2: wanted with each other at one point. And we did
51:53
Speaker 2: have this conversation because I remember my husband saying, well,
51:56
Speaker 2: you know, then I will have to go and find
51:58
Speaker 2: it elsewhere. And I said, perhaps that's what I need
52:01
Speaker 2: as well. Maybe I should also go and see if
52:04
Speaker 2: that's what I want. You know, this is not being
52:08
Speaker 2: satisfactory for me. So we did actually talk about it.
52:11
Speaker 2: Now neither of us did step out of the marriage
52:14
Speaker 2: at this point. We were able to work through our differences.
52:18
Speaker 2: Took it took time, It took a lot of fighting,
52:20
Speaker 2: It took a lot of communicating. We did work ourselves
52:23
Speaker 2: back to our relationship, but it is a conversation that
52:27
Speaker 2: we ended up having and it's there in the back
52:33
Speaker 2: of everybody's mind, so I think that we do need
52:35
Speaker 2: to talk about it.
52:36
Speaker 1: Thank you and thank you so much for being so
52:38
Speaker 1: candid and so insightful. As always, it was such a
52:42
Speaker 1: privilege to have you on Love Matters. Seeman, thanks so much.
52:45
Speaker 2: For joining us, Thank you for having me Darli.
52:49
Speaker 1: And thank you so much for tuning in to Love
52:51
Speaker 1: Matters today. I hope that you enjoyed this episode and
52:54
Speaker 1: do share it with anyone who do you think might
52:56
Speaker 1: benefit from listening to this conversation. Love Matters is produced
53:00
Speaker 1: by Indian Express and DW, Germany's international broadcaster, and as
53:04
Speaker 1: I said, we would love to hear from you, so
53:06
Speaker 1: please do grate and review this podcast, leave a comment.
53:09
Speaker 1: You can even write to us at Lovematters at DW
53:12
Speaker 1: dot com. But now this is me Lisa Langeldas signing off.
53:17
Speaker 1: I believe Love Matters