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Bryan Kohberger's PARENTS TESTIFY IN DEATH OF PENNSYLVANIA WOMAN · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
0:13
Speaker 2: Breaking news in the prosecution of Brian Coburger, charged in
0:18
Speaker 2: the four murders of four.
0:20
Speaker 3: Beautiful University, Idaho students.
0:24
Speaker 2: In the last hours, we learn Coburger's mother has already
0:29
Speaker 2: testified in front of a Pennsylvania grand jury and his
0:35
Speaker 2: father is set to testify over their strenuous objections. What
0:42
Speaker 2: does that have to do with, well, the murder of
0:46
Speaker 2: a woman with three children, the youngest being aged seven,
0:51
Speaker 2: Dana Smithers, who goes missing from the same county where
0:58
Speaker 2: Coburger lived.
1:00
Speaker 3: With his family.
1:01
Speaker 2: They're in the Poconos just before he leaves for Washington
1:07
Speaker 2: State University. Why are Coburger's parents being forced to testify
1:15
Speaker 2: in a grand jury murder investigation in Pennsylvania. I'm Nancy Grace.
1:22
Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
1:24
Speaker 2: here at Fox Nation in series.
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Speaker 3: XM one eleven.
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Speaker 2: First of all, I want to go out to the
1:31
Speaker 2: founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, the
1:35
Speaker 2: Starvenu podcast Zone seven, Cheryl McCollum. Cheryl, Of course, a
1:40
Speaker 2: grand jury has two arms, investigative and charging. The charging
1:46
Speaker 2: arm is when they indict you and hand down a
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Speaker 2: true bill or a no bill.
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Speaker 3: They don't charge you.
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Speaker 2: The investigative part is when they take a matter under consideration,
1:57
Speaker 2: the subpoena, documents, object people, all sorts of evidence, and
2:05
Speaker 2: then they decide if there should be a charge. We
2:09
Speaker 2: don't know whether this grand jury is acting in a
2:13
Speaker 2: capacity of investigating and ruling out Coburger or investigating preparing
2:20
Speaker 2: to charge Coburger in relation to the murder of Dana Smithers.
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Speaker 3: What do you make of it?
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Speaker 4: I think they are taking out his alibi when he
2:33
Speaker 4: says he has an airtight alibi. Let's say his parents
2:37
Speaker 4: were his alibi. They're gonna talk to them individually and
2:41
Speaker 4: make sure that their story lines up with his story.
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Speaker 4: I think this is absolutely investigator.
2:47
Speaker 2: All right, let's analyze the facts as we know them
2:50
Speaker 2: with me an all star panel to make sense of
2:52
Speaker 2: what we know right now. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
2:58
Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on
3:01
Speaker 2: Amazon at start of a Hitting You podcast Body Bags
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Speaker 2: with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, do you differ in
3:11
Speaker 2: your opinion? What is the evidence? You have always maintained
3:16
Speaker 2: that Coburger's first murders were not the Idaho students.
3:21
Speaker 5: Yeah, I have because it was such a flourish when
3:26
Speaker 5: you think of it, you know that this individual would
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Speaker 5: go in and butcher these four students and at this
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Speaker 5: one time, and a lot of people will say, well,
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Speaker 5: he was just surprised. He wasn't anticipating. This guy doesn't.
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Speaker 5: This guy anticipates.
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Speaker 3: Everything, surprised about what that.
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Speaker 5: There were more than one victim, or that there were
3:44
Speaker 5: more than one person that they were targeting, that he
3:47
Speaker 5: was targeting. So I think that he had full awareness.
3:51
Speaker 5: You know, he had been surveilling this area for some time.
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Speaker 5: Most of these people that start off are that have
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Speaker 5: their beginnings, you know, start off doing things like engaging
4:01
Speaker 5: in things like peeping tommery or attempting to steal underwear
4:05
Speaker 5: and those sorts of things. So I don't know that
4:09
Speaker 5: it extends out to the idea that his first his
4:13
Speaker 5: first interaction of something nefarious was necessarily a homicide. But
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Speaker 5: I think that there was certainly a dark side. Whether
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Speaker 5: or not this woman is one of his victims or
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Speaker 5: a potential victim of his, remains to be seen, because
4:26
Speaker 5: we need more information from our autopsy.
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Speaker 2: Well, it's going to be tough because, as we know,
4:32
Speaker 2: her remains were so decomposed, she had to be identified
4:36
Speaker 2: through her dental records, so we also don't have a
4:40
Speaker 2: cause of death. But speaking of underwear, to Chris mcdonna,
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Speaker 2: a direct her at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide
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Speaker 2: detective and host of YouTube channel The Interview Room, Chris mcdonnah,
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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us along with Cheryl, Joe Scott,
4:56
Speaker 2: and our other panelists. Speaking of underwe where I hear
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Speaker 2: where Joe Scott Morgan is going, and I agree yet
5:05
Speaker 2: disagree with him. I can't do this is anecdotal, this
5:11
Speaker 2: is not statistical. But I noticed in so many rate
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Speaker 2: files and murder files, if you look far back enough
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Speaker 2: into a defendants record criminal history, and you get their
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Speaker 2: juvenile records, you very often will see peeping tom trespassing,
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Speaker 2: minor offenses that were sex related, trespassing going into somebody's bedroom, trespassing,
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Speaker 2: going into their car and rifling through their lipstick and
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Speaker 2: their stuff they've got in their car. Peeping tom looking
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Speaker 2: into a woman's window while she's taking a bath or
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Speaker 2: changing clothes, or really just sitting there on the sofa
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Speaker 2: reading a book or watching TV. That's peeping Tom, and
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Speaker 2: it escalates. It progresses to stalking, to an aggravated battery,
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Speaker 2: to a rate to asdomy, to a murder.
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Speaker 3: It progresses.
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Speaker 2: Like we go from pre k to graduating college, they
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Speaker 2: go from peeping Tom to a full on quadruple murder.
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Speaker 3: That's what I'm talking about. Underwear, underwear, underwear.
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Speaker 2: Remember the incident of the neighbor in Idaho regarding her underwear.
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Speaker 6: Yes, the underwear that was found in the car door
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Speaker 6: of the young college student next to where the victims
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Speaker 6: were ultimately discovered. Those are the types of incidents, Nancy,
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Speaker 6: that we've been talking about, where those are kind of
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Speaker 6: what we call pre incident indicators up to the big point,
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Speaker 6: up to the paint.
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Speaker 2: I need you to have a big word for it.
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Speaker 2: As I often say to Jackie, Why use one word
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Speaker 2: when you could use fifty? Okay, what did you call it?
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Speaker 2: Pre incident?
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Speaker 6: What indicators? Right? These are behaviors before I.
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Speaker 3: Call them babysteps, yes, ma'am.
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Speaker 6: And so these are behaviors that are before the crime.
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Speaker 6: And if we look at this particular incident now I
7:10
Speaker 6: agree with Cheryl and both Scott. I mean where you
7:15
Speaker 6: have a grand jury potentially as an investigative probe here.
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Speaker 6: But if we go back and we narrow this down
7:21
Speaker 6: pretty quickly, if we have to give this Dana Smithers,
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Speaker 6: the woman that's been discovered there, we've got to give
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Speaker 6: her the same look as we did the four students
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Speaker 6: in Idaho. And the first thing that came to immediately
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Speaker 6: to me is the crime scene, which that's what we
7:43
Speaker 6: call the disposal site. And it's a body dump is
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Speaker 6: what we would call it in Cheryl, and everybody here
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Speaker 6: knows what I'm talking about. It's right off of the
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Speaker 6: over a railing by a freeway entrance, and it's across
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Speaker 6: the street from a multi three story unit hotel. The
8:01
Speaker 6: address is a Hunter Park Avenue in Bangor, Pennsylvania. And
8:06
Speaker 6: if you go to Google Earth and you look at it,
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Speaker 6: and you look at the photographs of where the police
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Speaker 6: are searching, and then you look at this crime scene
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Speaker 6: as a whole, this area, the next thing you would
8:19
Speaker 6: want to look at is what we call a contact site.
8:23
Speaker 6: Where does a suspect and the victim cross paths in
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Speaker 6: relationship to where they were discovered. So, going back to
8:33
Speaker 6: your point about the voyeurism role, here is he thinking
8:38
Speaker 6: through you know, his fantasy, and the fantasy builds, it builds,
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Speaker 6: and he arbitrarily comes across this victim, you know, walking
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Speaker 6: or because it sounds like she left her house at
8:51
Speaker 6: a certain point, et cetera. And so those are the
8:54
Speaker 6: kind of things we want to look at here as
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Speaker 6: this information starts unfold further about Dana.
9:01
Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about what we know about Dana, because
9:03
Speaker 2: this is what I would be looking at. Let me
9:07
Speaker 2: circle back to Cheryl McCollum before I go to Tara
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Speaker 2: Malik joining us out of the Idaho jurisdiction, veteran trial lawyer,
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Speaker 2: partner in Smith and Malik, former state and federal prosecutor.
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Speaker 2: I want to talk to her about what a grand
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Speaker 2: jury could be doing. Of course it's secret, that makes
9:25
Speaker 2: it sound so nefarious, but all grand juries are in secret,
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Speaker 2: not just one grand jury, but all grand juries are
9:31
Speaker 2: held in secret. Cheryl McCollum, I would be looking right
9:34
Speaker 2: now at social media. I would be looking at whether
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Speaker 2: Coburger had any connection to her on social media. That
9:44
Speaker 2: is how we think he first identified the four Idaho
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Speaker 2: slave victims, the girls. Anyway, that's what I would be
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Speaker 2: looking for. A similar mo modus operandi method of operation Cheryl.
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Speaker 4: That's absolutely right. One thing that I'm curious about, Nancy.
10:01
Speaker 4: We have three potential crime scenes. So when the victim
10:05
Speaker 4: is leaving her friend's house, which is only three doors down,
10:08
Speaker 4: she has her cell phone in her hand. Her cell
10:11
Speaker 4: phone is then found in her home. So was he
10:14
Speaker 4: laying in wait? Did he bum rush her? How did
10:16
Speaker 4: he get her out of the house. We then he
10:19
Speaker 4: must have had a vehicle. We would think to transport
10:23
Speaker 4: her to the body disposal site, and then the dumping
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Speaker 4: site would be our third one. I would try to
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Speaker 4: connect somebody to all three of those sites. She was
10:31
Speaker 4: called on ring camera. Possibly he was two or.
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Speaker 3: His vehicle again, I would be combing if they still
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Speaker 3: have it.
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Speaker 2: That is coming surveillance videos from that date May twenty eight,
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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. Remember the four sleighs occurred November. See
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Speaker 2: May June, July, August, September, October, November, six months later,
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Speaker 2: coming all of these surveillance video at gas stations, at
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Speaker 2: the hotel motel that Chris mcdonnad just mentioned, and the
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Speaker 2: interstate ramps, at red lights, everywhere I could find it
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Speaker 2: to see who with whom she hooked up. Hi guys,
11:20
Speaker 2: Nancy Grace here. Please join us now on Fox Nation
11:24
Speaker 2: for a brand new investigation, Parallels of Evil the Bundy
11:29
Speaker 2: and Idaho Killings. In this gripping special investigation, we bring
11:35
Speaker 2: together an incredible panel of guests who analyze disturbing similarities
11:40
Speaker 2: of evil between these horrible crimes. We speak with two
11:46
Speaker 2: female Ted Bundy survivors, Karen Pryor and Cheryl Thomas, who
11:52
Speaker 2: described their life before and after they were victims of
11:57
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy. We also speak with the renowned private investigator
12:02
Speaker 2: Bill Warner who worked the cases, and Ted Bundy's defense attorney,
12:07
Speaker 2: John Henry Brown.
12:08
Speaker 3: We traveled to.
12:09
Speaker 2: Moscow, Idaho, to speak with Washington State University students and
12:14
Speaker 2: interview neighbors of Brian Coburger. One neighbor shares exclusive insights
12:20
Speaker 2: about the suspect in the Idaho killings, Brian Coburger. Don't
12:25
Speaker 2: miss Parallels of Evil the Bundy and Idaho Killings, streaming
12:30
Speaker 2: now exclusively on Fox Stature Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 3: Now another thing.
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Speaker 2: Let's follow her movements, Follow her movements that evening, you know.
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Speaker 3: Let's start with our cut four five one.
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Speaker 7: Jackie neighbor, Terra Sioni says Dana Smithers came to her
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Speaker 7: home late the night of the festival. They only lived
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Speaker 7: a few houses from each other and the visit was
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Speaker 7: nothing unusual. Sioni tells Dateline that Smithers was smoking and
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Speaker 7: that was something she only saw Smithers doing when she
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Speaker 7: was nervous or on edge. Smithers invited Sioni to her home,
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Speaker 7: but Sioni declined as she was tired. Smithers went home
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Speaker 7: around eleven pm, her departure captured on Sionie's ring camera.
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Speaker 7: She had her phone in her hand. That was the
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Speaker 7: last time anyone saw Dana Smithers.
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Speaker 2: So she was at the friend's house after a local
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Speaker 2: festival and she had only her phone because she walked
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Speaker 2: to the friend's house. She's a couple of doors downroom
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Speaker 2: where she Denas Smithers lived with her seven year old
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Speaker 2: daughter and her mother. Festival What Festival Take a lit
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Speaker 2: Star cut four five zero.
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Speaker 8: Dena Smithers grew up in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania with her sister Stacy,
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Speaker 8: who describes her sister as Gregary Yes. Stacy tells Dateline
14:01
Speaker 8: that Smithers is fun loving with a very boisterous laugh.
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Speaker 8: Dina Smithers is a mother of three to a twenty
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Speaker 8: five year old son, a twenty three year old daughter,
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Speaker 8: and a seven year old daughter. The day she went missing,
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Speaker 8: Smithers spent the day with her youngest daughter and the
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Speaker 8: girl's father at a nearby festival. The father and Smithers
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Speaker 8: were no longer a couple, but maintained an amicable relationship
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Speaker 8: for their daughter. Back home, after the festival, Dina Smithers
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Speaker 8: went down the street to speak to her neighbor of
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Speaker 8: sixteen years, TIRACIONI.
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Speaker 2: So she Dennas Smithers is at this festival with her daughter,
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Speaker 2: seven years old, her ex They say they have an
14:37
Speaker 2: amicable relationship. They leave for the evening. They after spending
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Speaker 2: the day there, she goes home. Her seven year old
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Speaker 2: is at home with the grandma, Dana's mother. She walks
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Speaker 2: down the street to visit with friend Tara. She leaves
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Speaker 2: Tara's home and she spotted around eleven pm on the
15:02
Speaker 2: ring doorbell. You can see her very clearly walking away
15:04
Speaker 2: with her phone in her hand. Here is the rub.
15:07
Speaker 2: Her cell phone and keys and her meds that she
15:11
Speaker 2: never fell taking are at home. So where does she
15:15
Speaker 2: go without her cell phone? And I want to go
15:19
Speaker 2: out to Tara Malick joining us out of the Idaho jurisdiction. Tara,
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Speaker 2: a grand jury, as I said, is investigative and charging.
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Speaker 3: What do you make of both the parents, both.
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Speaker 2: Of Coburger's parents being called to testify from that Pennsylvania
15:36
Speaker 2: grand jury.
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Speaker 3: And I'd also like to point.
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Speaker 2: Out that the body is found in the same county
15:42
Speaker 2: where the parents. Coburger's parents live there in the Poconos,
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Speaker 2: It's Monroe County, So that is a coincidence. It's really
15:51
Speaker 2: hard to ignore.
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Speaker 3: Do you agree?
15:53
Speaker 6: Yeah?
15:54
Speaker 9: I agree. I think it's very odd. I think their location,
15:58
Speaker 9: their geographic location, the timing and when this occurred right
16:02
Speaker 9: before Coburger was going off to Washington University, I think
16:06
Speaker 9: all of that is highly suspicious and problematic for them.
16:12
Speaker 9: What'll be interesting is, you know whether either one of
16:15
Speaker 9: them took the fifth or fleeted the fifth during the
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Speaker 9: grand jury proceedings. Already, we've got some suspicions with Dad.
16:23
Speaker 9: Why was he, you know, assisting Coburger as he drove
16:28
Speaker 9: cross country back to Pennsylvania in a really weird and
16:32
Speaker 9: circuitous kind of route. So I think it's a it's
16:36
Speaker 9: an odd position for them to be in.
16:39
Speaker 2: Repeat Danis Smithers the murder victim last. Although we don't
16:43
Speaker 2: have a cause of death yet, I find it really
16:45
Speaker 2: hard to believe she goes off to a wooded area
16:47
Speaker 2: and just dies of natural causes. Smithers lasting alive, leaving
16:51
Speaker 2: friends home in Monroe County, the same county where Coburger
16:57
Speaker 2: lived with his parents in All Rights Full near all
17:01
Speaker 2: Riceful before moving cross country to pursue a doctorate at WSU.
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Speaker 3: That move proofs.
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Speaker 2: Fatal because only nine to ten miles away from his
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Speaker 2: apartment in Pullman. There at Washington State are the four
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Speaker 2: murder victims. What more do we know about Dana smithers
17:22
Speaker 2: disappearance that night? Take a listen to our friends at
17:24
Speaker 2: crimeonline dot com. In four five two.
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Speaker 8: Smithers phone, car, keys, and medication were later found at
17:30
Speaker 8: her house. After Smithers was reported missing, the Stroud Area
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Speaker 8: Regional Police Department conducted searches about a month after her disappearance.
17:38
Speaker 8: The Pennsylvania State Police joined the search of the park
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Speaker 8: down the street from smithers home. Cadaver dogs were also
17:45
Speaker 8: brought in, but nothing was found. Diana is about five
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Speaker 8: feet five inches tall weighs one hundred and sixty pounds
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Speaker 8: and has brown hair and brown eyes. She was last
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Speaker 8: seen wearing a red shirt with black pants and white shoes.
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Speaker 3: What more do we know? Take a listenerw cut four
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Speaker 3: fifty four our friends at wb R E.
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Speaker 10: Forty five year old Dana Smithers has been missing for
18:04
Speaker 10: nearly a month now. She was last seen here on
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Speaker 10: Stokes Avenue. I spoke to her daughter in law about
18:09
Speaker 10: what Dana was doing that day and when they decided
18:12
Speaker 10: to call police.
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Speaker 11: Someone doesn't just disappear, You don't just vanish out of
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Speaker 11: the air and are never seen again.
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Speaker 10: Briann Farino is the daughter in law of Dana Smithers,
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Speaker 10: a Straudsburg woman who's been missing.
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Speaker 11: Dana is very outgoing. She is the type of person
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Speaker 11: who will start up a conversation with you in the
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Speaker 11: grocery store and like you just made a lifelong friend.
18:32
Speaker 11: She is very outgoing. She is very like she can
18:35
Speaker 11: make anybody laugh and more.
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Speaker 3: In four or five five from our friend Sydney Costas, Dana.
18:39
Speaker 10: Went to a street festival at a local restaurant with
18:42
Speaker 10: her six year old daughter. Later that night, she walked
18:44
Speaker 10: a few houses down to a friend's home on Stokes Avenue.
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Speaker 10: That's when she was last seen on a ring camera
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Speaker 10: after eleven PM. The next morning, her cell phone and
18:54
Speaker 10: medication left behind at her home with no sign of Dana.
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Speaker 11: Her purse, her her car, everything that she would bring
19:02
Speaker 11: you would bring with you anywhere you go is at
19:06
Speaker 11: the house.
19:06
Speaker 10: Dana's family reached out to Stroud Area Regional Police after
19:10
Speaker 10: no one heard from her for two days. Dana was
19:13
Speaker 10: last wearing black jeans and a burgundy shirt for Reino
19:16
Speaker 10: says each day brings more discouragement and they need the
19:19
Speaker 10: public's help to find her.
19:20
Speaker 11: Someone has to know something.
19:23
Speaker 2: You know.
19:23
Speaker 11: She has children, she has a small child, and she
19:28
Speaker 11: deserves to have her mom in her life.
19:30
Speaker 2: To doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of
19:34
Speaker 2: the Atlanta jurisdiction, you can find her at Angela Arnold
19:37
Speaker 2: MD dot com, dottor Angie.
19:39
Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us.
19:41
Speaker 2: And once again, when the family approaches local police to
19:45
Speaker 2: tell them Dana is missing, they say she is a
19:48
Speaker 2: grown woman.
19:50
Speaker 3: She can go away for a night without calling her mother.
19:53
Speaker 3: Why why and why.
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Speaker 12: I mean, Nancy, can't these people watch your show and
19:58
Speaker 12: learn something right.
20:01
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that, but I do
20:03
Speaker 2: know that screwed this whole thing up?
20:06
Speaker 6: Sure?
20:06
Speaker 12: And can you imagine all the other things that it's
20:08
Speaker 12: screwed up. It's just it's such an excuse and it's
20:12
Speaker 12: not the way these things should be handled. Because, as
20:14
Speaker 12: we have talked about time and time again on your show,
20:18
Speaker 12: people have patterns of behavior. So if someone goes against
20:23
Speaker 12: that pattern of behavior, then other people know it's a
20:28
Speaker 12: problem that she's missing, and they want help as fast
20:32
Speaker 12: as possible, and they should be able to get that help.
20:34
Speaker 2: Patterns of behavior, patterns of behavior. Her mother and sister
20:39
Speaker 2: go to police and they're told.
20:41
Speaker 3: Hey, she's a grown woman.
20:42
Speaker 2: Why don't they always say this, Cheryl? They say some
20:45
Speaker 2: you know, derivative of she's probably off with her new boyfriend.
20:48
Speaker 3: We I mean, stop a family.
20:51
Speaker 4: When you look at she left behind medication that she
20:55
Speaker 4: takes every day, She left behind her keys, she had
20:58
Speaker 4: no money, she didn't take a wallet, she didn't take
21:01
Speaker 4: a call, she didn't take a train to close, and
21:04
Speaker 4: she left behind her seven year old. Those are patterns
21:08
Speaker 4: you can't ignore.
21:10
Speaker 10: This is not somebody that just took a powder. Is
21:13
Speaker 10: it somebody that just wanted to start.
21:14
Speaker 9: A new life.
21:15
Speaker 4: That is almost never decay and we.
21:18
Speaker 2: Have another let's just say monkey wrench in the works.
21:24
Speaker 2: To Joe Scott Morgan, Professor, friends and death investigator, we
21:29
Speaker 2: can't get a co D cause of death. I could
21:32
Speaker 2: listen to our cut four or five six wn EP.
21:36
Speaker 13: The coroner has identified the skeletal remains found last week
21:39
Speaker 13: in the Poconawa's officials say the remains are that of
21:42
Speaker 13: Dina Smithers from Strasbourg, who went missing last May. The
21:45
Speaker 13: forty five year old woman was last seen on surveillance
21:48
Speaker 13: video leaving a friend's home. As search at the time
21:51
Speaker 13: came up empty, but last week, a decomposed body was
21:54
Speaker 13: found in a wooded area of Stroudsburg near the on
21:56
Speaker 13: ramp to Interstate eighty. The Monroe County Corner says more
21:59
Speaker 13: tests needed to determine how Smithers died.
22:02
Speaker 2: And one more thing, Joe Scott Morgan take a listen
22:04
Speaker 2: to our forensic crime online dot com.
22:06
Speaker 7: In four five three, Danis Smithers remains were discovered by
22:09
Speaker 7: a Stroldberg Borough employee in a wooded area near the
22:12
Speaker 7: Interstate eighty east on off ramp at Park Avenue. A
22:16
Speaker 7: forensic odentologist helped confirm the identity of the badly decomposed
22:20
Speaker 7: body using dental records, and autopsy has been conducted, but
22:24
Speaker 7: results are pending further testing.
22:27
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't mean this in a personal way at all,
22:31
Speaker 2: but I don't put a lot of stock in forensic idontology,
22:35
Speaker 2: in other words, identifying a defendant by his bite mark
22:41
Speaker 2: on a person's body, because Joe Scott, the flesh, human
22:47
Speaker 2: flesh is movable and pliant. It's like biting into jello
22:51
Speaker 2: and claiming, Hey, I can see a bite mark that
22:55
Speaker 2: I can now convict somebody with. No unless you've got
22:59
Speaker 2: a really identifiable bite mark. Like remember Ted Bundy had
23:05
Speaker 2: this weird tooth. If you look at the bite mark,
23:09
Speaker 2: it looks like it's coming from the eye tooth on
23:13
Speaker 2: the right side of his mouth, right beside his front
23:16
Speaker 2: teeth on the right it just kind of sticks out,
23:20
Speaker 2: you know, like people have that weird.
23:22
Speaker 3: Little toe that sticks out on the side.
23:24
Speaker 2: No offense, Jackie, But I mean that's very identifiable. So
23:30
Speaker 2: I don't put a lot of stock in trying to
23:32
Speaker 2: convict somebody on foray odontology. But in this case, we're
23:37
Speaker 2: not just talking about a bite mark. We're not talking
23:39
Speaker 2: about a bite Mark. We're talking about identifying her on
23:43
Speaker 2: her dental records, not some unusual tooth configuration.
23:48
Speaker 3: Explain.
23:49
Speaker 5: Yeah, odentology as it applies to bite Mark is more
23:52
Speaker 5: art than it is science. It's highly subjective, that's nicely put.
23:57
Speaker 5: But however, when it comes to identifying bodies, it is
24:00
Speaker 5: still very reliable because you know, we we go through
24:04
Speaker 5: stages with our teeth throughout our lives where we have fillings,
24:07
Speaker 5: we have restorations, we have extractions, we have rotations in
24:10
Speaker 5: our teeth, replacements, bridges, caps, all those sorts of things
24:14
Speaker 5: that make us uniquely identifiable through our identici. So in
24:19
Speaker 5: that sense it is still highly reliable. I would have
24:23
Speaker 5: thought that probably their fallback position would have been to
24:26
Speaker 5: harvest DNA potentially from a tooth. They still had viable
24:30
Speaker 5: biological sample in order to do that. But I got
24:33
Speaker 5: to tell you, Nancy, what I'm truly interested in in
24:36
Speaker 5: this case is going to be, you know, the big
24:39
Speaker 5: mystery here cod cause of death. When we think about Coburger,
24:45
Speaker 5: and we've been talking about him relative to this, we
24:48
Speaker 5: know for a fact what the cause of deaths were
24:53
Speaker 5: relative to those force souls out in Idaho, and it
24:57
Speaker 5: was sharp forced injury that sometimes it's very difficult to
25:01
Speaker 5: determine a relative to decomposed bodies. They have to they
25:07
Speaker 5: have to go an extra mile for this, and what
25:09
Speaker 5: I just break it down.
25:10
Speaker 3: Please, you're making my head heart.
25:12
Speaker 5: Oh, I'm sorry.
25:13
Speaker 3: When a body you're not sorry, I know you. Hold on.
25:18
Speaker 2: Let me put it in a nutshell. You've got a
25:20
Speaker 2: decomposed body. You can't determine cod if it's a knife wound,
25:24
Speaker 2: and you want to compare method of death to the four.
25:30
Speaker 3: Victims in Idaho. You're looking for a knife wound.
25:32
Speaker 2: The only way you're going to find it on a
25:33
Speaker 2: badly decomposed body is if the knife nicked a bone.
25:38
Speaker 5: Well, that all depends on how far down the road
25:40
Speaker 5: it is. As far as decomposition. You can still appreciate
25:44
Speaker 5: knife wounds even a month down range. And from what
25:46
Speaker 5: I'm what I'm hearing, that's the neighborhood we're in. But
25:50
Speaker 5: obviously they didn't see that. They haven't released that information.
25:53
Speaker 5: It's difficult. If this will say, an asphyxial death, that
25:57
Speaker 5: can be kind of difficult to do. Gunshot wound would
26:00
Speaker 5: be kind of evident, particularly if it was to the head.
26:04
Speaker 5: There's a lot of evidence here because.
26:06
Speaker 3: The bullet would go through the bank, well.
26:08
Speaker 5: Through the ball, through the skull. Perhaps, yeah, you find
26:11
Speaker 5: the bullet, yeah, and hopefully hopefully out there, Nancy, they
26:16
Speaker 5: would have gone around the body with a metal detector
26:20
Speaker 5: to Hopefully they didn't just look down and say, okay,
26:23
Speaker 5: we've got a decomposed body. It's adjacent to a highway.
26:26
Speaker 5: Maybe it's just a homeless person that was camping out.
26:28
Speaker 5: Hopefully that's not the tact that they took. I'm hoping
26:31
Speaker 5: that they went out there and did grid search relative
26:34
Speaker 5: to a metal detector to look and see if there
26:38
Speaker 5: were any popped off rounds out there, any kind of
26:42
Speaker 5: projectiles or spent brass that was left behind. Methodology here though,
26:46
Speaker 5: is going to be key, I think, and also any
26:50
Speaker 5: kind of videography relative to you guessed at this car
26:54
Speaker 5: a hunday, perhaps how long how long had it been
26:58
Speaker 5: did they capture all the CCT stuff, because it's not
27:01
Speaker 5: like this was done in isolation out in farm farm country.
27:05
Speaker 5: You know, Chris had mentioned that this is adjacent to
27:08
Speaker 5: an interstate, this is a dump site, and he's right
27:10
Speaker 5: on the money with that this is in fact a
27:11
Speaker 5: dump site, not a lot of care was taken here.
27:14
Speaker 5: No effort apparently was taken to bury a body here,
27:18
Speaker 5: which you know that takes time and it takes tools.
27:22
Speaker 5: There's no indication of that this is a surface recovery
27:25
Speaker 5: that they have out there.
27:26
Speaker 2: Hey, Nancy, Yeah, I want to clarify something, Dave Matt
27:30
Speaker 2: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, wasn't Dennis Smithers's.
27:34
Speaker 3: Body found more like a year later, not a month later.
27:39
Speaker 6: It was a year later. She went missing. Last time
27:41
Speaker 6: she was seen April twenty eighth and a year ago,
27:45
Speaker 6: and then she was just recovered.
27:47
Speaker 3: Okay, Cheryl McCollum jump in.
27:49
Speaker 4: I was just going to say, depending on the weather
27:53
Speaker 4: and things like that, her clothing could still be somewhat intact,
27:56
Speaker 4: and her shirt could have you know, shown potential stuff.
28:00
Speaker 4: For sure, it would have injuries indicatively about it. You know.
28:03
Speaker 2: Another issue that we keep hearing is that they're different
28:08
Speaker 2: mos this was this occurred outdoors. We don't know that
28:13
Speaker 2: Dana Smothers was killed outdoors. We believe this could have
28:16
Speaker 2: been a dump.
28:17
Speaker 1: Side time stories with Nancy Grace, I'm trying to.
28:39
Speaker 3: Make comparisons and also distinguish.
28:43
Speaker 2: Dana Smithers' death from the Idaho Students' murders.
28:48
Speaker 3: So we're looking very carefully.
28:50
Speaker 2: At the mos We don't know Smithers was killed outside. Again,
28:55
Speaker 2: that was most likely a dump site. She may have
28:58
Speaker 2: been killed inside at what structure, maybe the hotel that
29:04
Speaker 2: we hear Chris mcdonna describe speaking of similarities, What about it, Chris.
29:08
Speaker 6: You know, Nancy. One other thing to consider also, just
29:12
Speaker 6: to kind of jump hill on all the conversations, here
29:16
Speaker 6: is right where this body is found, there is a
29:19
Speaker 6: bank right next door, and if you look closely on
29:23
Speaker 6: Google Earth, you can see what appears to be two
29:26
Speaker 6: exterior video cameras, and then across the street is a
29:31
Speaker 6: Sneco gas station, and then we have the hotel. So
29:35
Speaker 6: to Scott's point earlier in Cheryl's, those are solid points
29:39
Speaker 6: because thus the suspect, this individual wants to lower their risk.
29:44
Speaker 6: If we talk about Coberger, because he just graduated hypothetically
29:49
Speaker 6: with this degree in technology, and he went through so
29:54
Speaker 6: many steps in the Idaho case, if it's him to
30:00
Speaker 6: cover that track, it would really be a character for
30:03
Speaker 6: him to kind of, you know, just go to this
30:07
Speaker 6: step where you know he kills this individual at a
30:10
Speaker 6: different location, which is one crime scene, then moves it
30:14
Speaker 6: to a secondary crime scene, the body and dumps her
30:17
Speaker 6: over the railing here just before he gets onto the freeway, hypothetically.
30:22
Speaker 6: So I don't know if this is fitting him as
30:26
Speaker 6: much as the behavior that we already know about and
30:30
Speaker 6: it's in evidence, and this behavior that we're seeing here
30:34
Speaker 6: with that hotel across the street. In my mind, it
30:37
Speaker 6: opens up a variety of other options.
30:40
Speaker 2: Okay, one thing, I want to know if this changes
30:44
Speaker 2: anyone's opinion, Everybody jump in, not just Joe Scott Morgan,
30:48
Speaker 2: although you did bring it up, Joe Scott, the time
30:52
Speaker 2: of discovery of Dennis Smithers was a year later, not
30:55
Speaker 2: a month later. Does that change your opinion regarding the
30:59
Speaker 2: degree of composition of her body?
31:01
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it does, And I misspoke. She would be
31:04
Speaker 5: in an advanced state of decomposition and so there would
31:07
Speaker 5: be little or no soft tissue left exactly.
31:10
Speaker 2: So the dental records are a must unless you want
31:13
Speaker 2: to extract DNA from you know, ali nuclei have.
31:17
Speaker 3: A hair or the tooth, or as Cheryl.
31:20
Speaker 2: Pointed out, we may be able to get something off
31:23
Speaker 2: the clothing. I don't know it's been out. The body
31:26
Speaker 2: and the clothing have been outside for so long, I'd
31:29
Speaker 2: be curious.
31:30
Speaker 3: Is she still clothed or was she unclothed.
31:34
Speaker 2: We're trying to also establish where was Coburger on the
31:38
Speaker 2: day she goes missing May twenty eight. Everybody jump in
31:43
Speaker 2: with your knowledge. Okay, I need everybody we know. Jackie
31:49
Speaker 2: pulled up his actual graduation program and he got his
31:55
Speaker 2: major in criminology, not IT or tech, but monology. He
32:01
Speaker 2: steeped in criminal behavior. He graduated May twenty one, twenty
32:07
Speaker 2: twenty two at Dessales. Okay, then he goes across the
32:12
Speaker 2: country to Washington State University and ultimately to Idaho. Now,
32:19
Speaker 2: had he already left by May twenty eight to go
32:23
Speaker 2: stake out a new apartment or even move to Washington
32:27
Speaker 2: State University? He was already admitted, but his classes there
32:30
Speaker 2: did not start until August. So what is his so
32:36
Speaker 2: called air tight alibi? Also regarding m yes, we look
32:45
Speaker 2: for the same fingerprint type of murder. But I mean,
32:49
Speaker 2: let's look at Ted Bundy, Okay, because the comparisons which
32:53
Speaker 2: you can see on our new investigation on Fox Nation,
32:56
Speaker 2: parallels of evil between Bundy and and Coburger to surviving
33:04
Speaker 2: female victims.
33:05
Speaker 3: Speak to us.
33:07
Speaker 2: We believe Bundy had at least three surviving victims. We
33:11
Speaker 2: know that it was in a college town and a
33:14
Speaker 2: structure of a house as opposed to an apartment or
33:19
Speaker 2: a high rise. The use of violent force female victims
33:24
Speaker 2: in the dark of night. I mean, my list of
33:26
Speaker 2: comparisons goes on and on and on. Stalking both getting
33:32
Speaker 2: their grad degree, just always thinking are smarter than everybody else.
33:37
Speaker 2: Coburger and Bundy both notorious for that. But for the
33:41
Speaker 2: purposes of our conversations today, Ted Bundy murdered people in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Colorado.
33:52
Speaker 2: So the disparate murder scenes do not concern me at all.
33:57
Speaker 2: With Coleburger Pennsylvania, He's found in this same county where
34:02
Speaker 2: his parents live before he moves to Washington State, That's
34:08
Speaker 2: not a concern at all. Take a listen to our
34:13
Speaker 2: cup four five seven regarding Ted Bundy's emo.
34:16
Speaker 8: Serial killer Ted Bundy admitted to killing more than thirty
34:19
Speaker 8: young women and girls in a cross country spree that
34:22
Speaker 8: spanned four years. That number is thought to be higher.
34:26
Speaker 8: Bundy's victims came from several states, Washington, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Florida, Idaho,
34:33
Speaker 8: and California. It's not known when Bundy began committing crimes,
34:38
Speaker 8: but Karen Sparks of Washington was brutally beaten and sexually
34:41
Speaker 8: assaulted with a metal rod in nineteen seventy four. That year,
34:46
Speaker 8: about one woman a month disappeared, many were college students.
34:51
Speaker 8: In August nineteen seventy four, Bundy attended the University of
34:54
Speaker 8: Utah Law School, and a number of the murders happened
34:58
Speaker 8: around that time.
34:58
Speaker 2: And it brings to mind another serial killer, Israel Keys,
35:04
Speaker 2: who murdered people all across the country. He actually kept
35:09
Speaker 2: kill kits hidden across the country that he could use
35:13
Speaker 2: to commit murders and hide evidence. Take ust in our
35:16
Speaker 2: cut sixteen our friends at ABC.
35:18
Speaker 14: Key's traveled the country from Alaska to Vermont, looking for
35:22
Speaker 14: people to kill totally at random, and funding his crimes
35:25
Speaker 14: by robbing banks. The FBI has now retraced his steps
35:29
Speaker 14: a long list of dates and locations since two thousand
35:32
Speaker 14: and one, when they believe he may have killed repeatedly.
35:36
Speaker 14: They so far have eight confirmed murders and rapes, including
35:39
Speaker 14: a couple in Essex, Vermont. Four others in Washington State,
35:43
Speaker 14: and one more on the East coast, with the body
35:45
Speaker 14: hidden in New York.
35:47
Speaker 2: Israel Ky's got on my radar when he kidnapped and
35:50
Speaker 2: murdered a young Alaskan barista, Samantha Koenig, by forcing her
35:55
Speaker 2: out of her coffee stand and sex is her brutally,
36:02
Speaker 2: and then murdering her after a failed ransom attempt. Take
36:06
Speaker 2: a listener cut eighteen from Investigation Discovery Dark Minds.
36:10
Speaker 15: His usual system was to travel far away from his home,
36:15
Speaker 15: use cash to turn his phone off, leave no record
36:19
Speaker 15: of his presence, and usually a small town where no
36:22
Speaker 15: one knew him, to abduct, kill, and then to leave
36:28
Speaker 15: to be hundreds of miles away from the scene by
36:31
Speaker 15: the time that local authorities even knew that anyone was missing.
36:36
Speaker 16: The Courier murders Keys flew from Anchorage to Chicago, then
36:40
Speaker 16: drove a rental car a thousand miles to Vermont. After
36:44
Speaker 16: killing them, he drove another few hundred miles to dump
36:47
Speaker 16: the murder weapon in a lake. Then he backtracked to
36:50
Speaker 16: Chicago and flew home to Alaska.
36:53
Speaker 2: I chose that sound for a significant reason, and that
36:57
Speaker 2: is Coburger studied these serial killers and years of saturating
37:05
Speaker 2: himself and the criminal minds of killers, of serial killers
37:10
Speaker 2: like Bundy, like Israel Keys. So committing a murder in
37:15
Speaker 2: one jurisdiction and then going two thousand miles like Israel
37:18
Speaker 2: Keys did to Washington State would not surprise me at all.
37:23
Speaker 2: Think about it, Cheryl McCollum anty.
37:25
Speaker 4: Not only did he study it, he seemed to mimic
37:28
Speaker 4: at least some of what we're you know, witnessing. Where
37:32
Speaker 4: he might have waited until he got to you know,
37:36
Speaker 4: his new home in Washington State to commit the murders
37:40
Speaker 4: in Idaho. We know he also, you know, had a
37:43
Speaker 4: potential chance to really study Bundy. He followed Bundy Washington State,
37:50
Speaker 4: then Idaho.
37:51
Speaker 9: That's something we know Bundy did.
37:53
Speaker 4: We know Israel Keys study Bundy. We know that he
37:56
Speaker 4: had access to, you know, get to the point of
37:59
Speaker 4: having a pH d. That not only did he study
38:01
Speaker 4: these folks, he went as far as to have the
38:04
Speaker 4: questionnaire about what it felt like, how did you choose
38:07
Speaker 4: a victim? How did you you know, drive away? All
38:10
Speaker 4: of those things. He's he's getting ready. It seems like
38:14
Speaker 4: he's preparing and has knowledge on a much different level
38:18
Speaker 4: than most people would even in a PhD program. He's
38:22
Speaker 4: studying something very specific. So you know, choosing your victim,
38:27
Speaker 4: how did it make you feel and how did you
38:29
Speaker 4: get away?
38:29
Speaker 2: And to you Justicin's got Morgan, Professor Forensics at Jacksonville
38:33
Speaker 2: State University, Death Investigator. I agree with what Cheryl just
38:37
Speaker 2: said and I want to point out that Coburger. We
38:42
Speaker 2: know that Brian Coburger knew to travel to cover his tracks.
38:47
Speaker 2: Remember the night of the murders, he drove a long, winding,
38:51
Speaker 2: circuitous route. I know because I drove the exact route
38:55
Speaker 2: at night when he could have just driven not minutes
39:01
Speaker 2: to his home in a pullman, he drove all the
39:04
Speaker 2: way around and it's dark, there's nobody there. You go
39:08
Speaker 2: for you know, twenty minutes without seeing a single light.
39:12
Speaker 2: He chose to do that to you know, distance himself
39:17
Speaker 2: from the murder scene. So we know that he is
39:21
Speaker 2: again steeped in the study of serial killers.
39:25
Speaker 5: Is and you know the infamous loop that you mentioned
39:29
Speaker 5: where CCTV, you know, images were captured and again we
39:36
Speaker 5: go back to the Hyundai that is part and parcel
39:40
Speaker 5: of what they do. You know, you even go back
39:42
Speaker 5: to Sam Little, the infamous serial killer who traveled all
39:46
Speaker 5: over the country, Nancy, as you well know, to avoid.
39:50
Speaker 5: And it seems counterintuitive because a lot of these people,
39:53
Speaker 5: when you hear about them, you know, they always say,
39:56
Speaker 5: you know, the kind of the rote statement is always
39:58
Speaker 5: they hunt in the areas that they know best, you know,
40:01
Speaker 5: And that's kind of a Hollywood thing that's thrown out there.
40:04
Speaker 5: And many of them do, but many of them don't either.
40:06
Speaker 5: You can't apply that logic to every single case. Again,
40:11
Speaker 5: I go back to this is.
40:12
Speaker 3: An area that with which he was familiar.
40:15
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was an area that that he was very
40:17
Speaker 5: familiar with. And so but you know, we begin to
40:21
Speaker 5: think about, you know, Idaho and out when he got
40:24
Speaker 5: this appointment to wazoo out there, how familiar was he
40:29
Speaker 5: with that area? Well, you got his phone pinging all
40:31
Speaker 5: over the place, you know, prior to that. And let
40:34
Speaker 5: me tell you one more thing. If he's a PhD student,
40:37
Speaker 5: he's he's in his first semester out there. It needsy
40:40
Speaker 5: when you're a PhD student, it's like being in an
40:43
Speaker 5: indentured servitude state. How in the world he had time
40:49
Speaker 5: to go and leave that campus and then cruise around
40:52
Speaker 5: another university. It doesn't it doesn't go to this idea
40:56
Speaker 5: of this kind of scholarly pursuit where you kind of
40:59
Speaker 5: live this monacre stick existence, particularly first semester, because all
41:03
Speaker 5: eyes are on you. So what's the focus here? The
41:06
Speaker 5: focus is perhaps perhaps to target somebody, to target multiple people,
41:13
Speaker 5: to learn how they live, where they live, what are
41:15
Speaker 5: their activities going forward, and to begin to understand them,
41:18
Speaker 5: particularly if you're a hunter.
41:20
Speaker 2: Well put very well put out Tara Malick joining us
41:24
Speaker 2: high profile lawyer out of the Idaho jurisdiction at Smith
41:28
Speaker 2: and Malick. Tara, let's just get right down to it.
41:33
Speaker 2: My interest as it stands right now in the Dennis
41:36
Speaker 2: Smithers case, of course I want to find her killer
41:39
Speaker 2: if in fact.
41:40
Speaker 3: She was a murder.
41:40
Speaker 2: Of course, that goes about saying, but how it relates
41:44
Speaker 2: to Brian Coburger. What is the law on the use
41:48
Speaker 2: of similar transactions in Idaho as it relates to a
41:52
Speaker 2: murder trial.
41:53
Speaker 9: Well, there's a four H four B rule, which is
41:56
Speaker 9: other wrong crimes and acts, and with advance notice, the
42:01
Speaker 9: state can file what's called a four O four bmotion
42:04
Speaker 9: and say judge, we've got we've got evidence of you know,
42:08
Speaker 9: a similar act or crime and they'll try and bring
42:12
Speaker 9: this information. But depending on how this grand jury testimony
42:16
Speaker 9: goes by the parents and what the grand jury finds,
42:20
Speaker 9: I would expect to see emotion by the state to
42:23
Speaker 9: introduce some of that evidence in and show similarities in
42:28
Speaker 9: show patterns. I mean, the state here is going to
42:30
Speaker 9: try and show that this was not you know, nothing
42:34
Speaker 9: about what Coburger did was a mistake. You know that
42:38
Speaker 9: perhaps with this woman, and we don't know enough yet,
42:41
Speaker 9: there may be evidence that he was hunting her. I mean,
42:43
Speaker 9: certainly she's close enough to his parents geographically that it
42:47
Speaker 9: would be possible. The other thing that came to mind,
42:51
Speaker 9: you know, and I had to go back and check
42:53
Speaker 9: dates on this, but Coberger was shopping for knives as
42:57
Speaker 9: of April twenty twenty two online on Amazon.
43:01
Speaker 6: You know.
43:02
Speaker 9: The timing as well with this woman disappearing May twenty
43:06
Speaker 9: eighth is also another piece that's curious to me and
43:11
Speaker 9: certainly suspect.
43:12
Speaker 12: Here.
43:13
Speaker 2: Let's hypothesize, and again this is hypothetical. If Danis Smithers
43:19
Speaker 2: was killed by Brian Coburger, there's one way that his
43:27
Speaker 2: defense lawyer, a tailor, could keep that evidence out of
43:31
Speaker 2: the Idaho trial, and that is by filing a speedy
43:36
Speaker 2: demand for trial under the constitution, he's got to get
43:43
Speaker 2: a speedy trial if he sticks with a demand. There's
43:47
Speaker 2: no way that they're going to get the evidence together
43:51
Speaker 2: in the Dana Smithers investigation in time to beat that
43:57
Speaker 2: speedy trial demand. And as of right now, we believe
44:01
Speaker 2: the defense is sticking with a speedy child demand.
44:05
Speaker 3: It's unclear.
44:08
Speaker 2: One last question to doctor Angela Arnold the stress of
44:12
Speaker 2: starting a PhD program, the stress of moving. Does high
44:19
Speaker 2: stress intensify a killer's desire to strike?
44:25
Speaker 12: You know, Nancy, I think we have to question whether
44:28
Speaker 12: he was stressed. I think this was a plan on
44:30
Speaker 12: his part to go out there and study. And I
44:33
Speaker 12: believe he was hiding behind the PhD program. And he
44:37
Speaker 12: was so arrogant and self assured that he didn't feel
44:42
Speaker 12: like he had to be in class. He could remember
44:46
Speaker 12: he got very high reviews to go to this program.
44:49
Speaker 12: People thought very highly of him. He was hiding behind
44:53
Speaker 12: this PhD program, and I don't believe he was stressed
44:57
Speaker 12: by the actual PhD program.
44:59
Speaker 3: Wait as Justice and false Goodbye friend,