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If You Feel Stuck in Your Career After Kids—Start Here · That Mom

• Maria Woods: you Welcome to That Mom, the podcast where we explore finding more joy and more meaning in the beautiful chaos of motherhood. I'm your host Maria, and I'm so glad you're here. If you've ever wondered how to make your career work for you as a working mom, this conversation is for you. I am so thrilled to welcome Becca Carnahan, a Harvard Business School career coach turned advisor for moms, author of When Mommy Grows Up is my guest today. Excited to talk to you today because I feel like you have so much to offer moms that are working or thinking about working. ⁓ So excited to have you on. Thanks so much, Maria. I'm excited to be here. And of course I have your book, ⁓ cause I'm a huge fan when mommy grows up finding career clarity while covered in kids. I love the title and it just is so, ⁓ it's so grounding because I think people can identify to feeling literally covered in kids while trying to navigate their career. ⁓ yeah. It's literal. It's figurative. There's like, there's a lot of kids stuff happening as a parent and we love it. Of course we love it, but it is hard to find our own way while we're covering kids. Yes, and I think working is just different for most moms after becoming a mother. It might feel different, your priorities might change, logistics get more difficult. ⁓ So I think it's just really relevant. And then some moms wonder, should I work? Should I not work? There's so many options and I think that's a beautiful thing about being in this mid-career stage that you've created options for yourself. And let's figure out what works best for this chapter of your life. Not for your entire life, but for this chapter. Yeah, and I think so much of your message, whether it's your one-on-one coaching through Next Chapter Careers, the book, or your podcast, is all about empowering moms and helping them to see the options that they do have. So personally, I love that, because I think instead of focusing on what's not working, you can turn it around into something that can really work. Exactly. Yeah, I love to be coming at coaching from a strength-based perspective, thinking about what gives you energy, what skills you want to lean into, what are the things that you're really trying to optimize for in the stage of your career, whether for some people that's you need to have a certain paycheck because kids are expensive. Absolutely. For some people, it's making sure that you can get the kids off the bus or be there for soccer practice. These things also don't have to live in separate vacuums either. It can be a paycheck and soccer practice, but let's figure out what matters most to you so that we can create a clear target and make a plan for what's next. Amazing. Becca, you have an amazing background with Harvard Business School. Would you walk us through a little bit of your history and how you got into career coaching specifically for moms? Sure, I'd love to. So I spent the first part of my career in career and professional development in higher education. And absolutely loved it. I loved the higher education setting, working with students, helping them figure out how they want to connect their education to their career. Absolutely love that work. did my master's in education at the Harvard Graduate School of Education with a focus on higher ed and career development. So I became a career development nerd and really, really enjoyed this work. And then something changed. And that was the fact that I became a mom. And it's a turning point for a lot of people. It's an inflection point that changes how you're living your everyday life. So I have two kids. who are now almost 11 and nine. And when I had my kids, I was driving into Boston every day for work. had two little kids. They were two under two. They're 15 months apart. ⁓ So things got busy real fast on this end. And so I started to think about, is this how I want to work for the foreseeable future? Do I want to be doing this commute? Do I want to be pulling into daycare on two wheels? How do I want to think about school that we're talking about the school bus, right? Getting kids on and off the school bus for kindergarten when that time comes. So those wheels started turning for me. I was still enjoying what I was doing in career and professional development, but the wheels were turning on the back end. Like, this, is this the right thing? Yeah. As that was happening, I started to have a bit of a creative itch too. I was seeing my kids start to learn and explore the world. And I was like, you know what? There's always been a part of me that loves the creative. and writing and creating something new, whether that was artistic or in writing. So you know what, could blog a little bit, that would be fun. ⁓ So started doing a blog on the side and slowly my two worlds started to come together. I was writing about parenthood, but then I was also starting to bring in some career development frameworks because it was the conversations that I ended up having with other moms, largely on playgrounds. A lot of this business, a lot of this book, really started from being on the sideline of a playground and seeing our kids play together in the sand. You talk with another mom and you know this, like you talk with another mom there at the playground. They're like, ⁓ yeah, like, so like how old's your kid? How old's your kid? What do you do? ⁓ and then whenever I would say that I worked in career and professional development, other moms would be like, ⁓ hey, ⁓ can we talk about that some more? Help me please. I don't like my job or my, is changing or I'm not sure how I'm going to be thinking about the logistics of my career. So many conversations happened as we were pushing kids on the swing. And I realized that the writing I was doing about parenthood and careers, the work I had been doing in career and professional development, the training I had in coaching, this was it. These were the people that I really wanted to serve because I saw these amazing parents who had so much to give feel like they didn't have options. Yes. And I knew that wasn't true. but I knew I needed to help them understand that on their own. couldn't just walk around playgrounds and say, hey, you have options and you have options. That was not very scalable. But I could create something that would allow parents to see for themselves the options they had created through their education, through their hard work, and then develop a vision for what was next. Because when we're in our 30s and our 40s, We don't have a very clear next step necessarily like we did when we were 18. Okay, we're going to college or you graduate college, you're getting your first job, you're trying to climb the ladder. All that kind of goes away when you get a little bit later in life and you have the, and you have your kids climbing all over you. So let's give it a little bit more structure to help people figure out what those next steps are for them. Yeah. ⁓ it's great. And you, you start the book, the book is funny as well. So if people haven't, read your blog or don't listen to your podcast. The book is really funny. There's a lot of humor in it. So it's easy to read, it's fun to read, but it also really hits home and touches on all these points of motherhood and career development and where they intersect. ⁓ But you have the titles of lot of chapters are kind of lessons that might be. childhood type lessons. So I think one of the first chapters is you need to share and you kind of talk about the career sweet spot. Tell us a little bit more about that. Sure. So like you said, each one of the chapters is named after a lesson that we're trying to teach our kids because as parents we're so in it with our kids. We're trying to help them learn and grow and explore the world. But we're sometimes hesitant to reverse those lessons back on ourselves. and say, all right, am I doing the thing that I just told my kid to do? I told my kid that we're at the playground. Yeah, you need to share the Tonka truck that you're playing with. you're, that's, these, these toys are for everyone. So this idea of sharing is something that we definitely are talking to our kids about. On the flip side, when we think about our own hopes and dreams or the skills that we really love to use, many of us keep that bottled in. Yeah. Because we think that we've made all of our choices. or that we've already set a path for ourselves. So if you have that creative itch, are you sharing it with anyone? If you have a desire to make a change in your career, are you sharing that with anyone besides the stranger on the playground who you just had a conversation with about career development? ⁓ If not, we need to make sure that you're sharing more of these great parts about you, the hopes, the dreams, the skills, the value that you can add in various workplaces. If we can get more clear about sharing, that's going to help you to lead to more opportunities. And how I like to break this down is in the career sweet spot model. If people are unsure what to share, let's figure out what are those pieces about those great pieces about you that you could share out into the world. And one of the buckets are like kind of do it in a Venn diagram. So picture one circle of that Venn diagram is your passions. and the stuff that you really love. And when I'm talking with other parents asking them like, what are the things, there's the Venn diagram exactly. So your passions, like what do you love to do? Do you love to be outside? Do you love working with kids? Are you really into health and wellness? What are the things that you like? What are the things that give you energy that get you excited? The next circle is- And this is fun because you're thinking of things that you like. it's like not- I didn't think exploring your career would be this fun, right? Like you're like, ⁓ this is going to be terrible, but you know, it can be fun. can be fun. It can be fun. And that's why I like to start with passions because sometimes that word feels heavy to people. Like, I don't know if I'm passionate about anything. I'm just trying to get my kids fed in the morning. And that's what I'm passionate about is making sure that they eat like their toast that I put in front of them. But you do have interests. Like everyone does. If you really dig into it, like what are the things that you stop when you're scrolling on your phone? What's filling up your feed? It's because that's what you're interested in. If you had an hour to yourself, if you had a day to yourself, how would you spend that time? We all have stuff. And what gives you energy? What lights you up? What gets you a little excited? Or like you were saying, you're a career nerd. So that's something that lights you up. I love talking to people. What are the different things? Yeah, what are the things that you nerd out about? Let's put that into that passions circle of things that you could share out into the world because I believe that the more people who are really nerdy about certain things that they love, the better off we're all going to be because you're sharing what you love. So that's one circle. The next circle is skills. And you've gained a lot of skills over the course of your career. You're not an entry level person anymore. You've gained a lot of skills through your education. You've gained a lot of skills through your work experience. Now let's reflect on the skills that you actually like to use. When I was working at Harvard Business School, I did a lot of technology database stuff. I was good at it. Did I want to do it forever? No. It wasn't a skill that I really loved leaning into. I loved coaching. I loved writing. I loved creating new things and brainstorming. Those were the skills I wanted to lean into. So I ask parents in the book and in coaching to reflect on what are all the skills you have? Let's do just a brain dump of all the skills and then let's star and circle the ones that you really love to use. Have you told anyone about that? Have you shared that out into the world that these are the skills you want to be using? If not, let's talk about that some more because that is where you can be adding the most value and feeling most fulfilled. Which is a win-win. Exactly. And then The third circle that I overlap this with, because of course you can have things that you love, things that you like to do, we want to get paid for them when we're talking about a career and how you can combine all those things. So the third circle is the value add. Where are you going to be adding a lot of value, helping solve problems? What companies or people are going to pay you to do those things? And that could be based on your past experience. It can also be one tick to the left or right of the industry or type of company or type of client. that you've served in the past. What are some of the characteristics of those companies or industries or people that you've served? Could you serve those same people or people that are similar in a different way? Similar in another way. So that they will pay you to use your skills and lean into the things that are exciting to you. Yeah. It's already energizing to me. this. Yes. Yes. It sounds fun. And then the career sweet spot is where they all overlap. They all overlap. Yep. And I truly believe that everyone can find a career sweet spot. And it might be that you're putting together, maybe it's all from one job, but maybe it's a portfolio of activities that allow you to lean into your career sweet spot. For me, my sweet spot is at that intersection of I love to write, create, make new things, develop these educational programs. career development, I'm a career development nerd. So those are all like the things that I love. ⁓ I love the coaching piece of it and talking with people, asking questions, getting to know them, making things a little bit more fun like the book. Those are skills I like to use. And where I can add value is working with other parents and being able to say, I get you, I understand you, I'm there with you at the playground and also in your career. Yeah. And I can help you to put some structure around this. So that's my sweet spot. It's the overlap between the people I can help, what I love to do and the skills I'd like to use. And you think you said everyone can find this. So you really are positive that whoever's out there struggling, thinking about this, if they put the work in that there's something out there for them. do. Where this intersects. Yeah, I do. And I think that for me, it all falls into this one job that I've created over time. For other people that I've worked with, it ends up being, I can't mention more, of a portfolio. That, know what, I really like using these marketing skills. I know I can add value in this way. I would love to be working for a company that's in the women's health space, but right now I don't have that job. Okay, so how can I best tap into that passion in another way for right now? Through some volunteer work or advocacy. So I'm filling my cup about the things that are really... exciting to me that are energizing to me. I'm using the skills and making the money maybe in my day job, but finding this other piece of it. And eventually that can lead people into finding even a more targeted sweet spot. Yeah. So I think being open to the idea that not every job is going to be a 10 out of 10. It's, it's just not. but we can move ourselves closer and closer to that goal. If we understand what our passions are, what our skills are, where we add value. And if we can start to put more of the pieces together and move ourselves closer to that direction, that's a win too. Yeah. It starts with the clarity and then we can move towards what we truly want once we figure out what that is. Exactly. And the more you're sharing with other people, this is what I love to do. This is what I'm interested in. People are going to put more opportunities in front of you because you're sharing. So going back to the book, um, if no one knows that you love health and wellness or no one knows that you love to do like you love to be in the numbers in a spreadsheet, but you don't really get to do that as much in your job. If no one knows that about you, when are they ever going to put that opportunity in front of you? Right. Whether at your existing job or people in your network, they're not going to, not because they don't like you. They don't know. You have to tell them, you have to share. ⁓ so it might be different than sharing a Tonka truck in the sandbox, but it goes, comes back to the same idea of understand yourself about what really makes you tick. and then start to get vocal about sharing that with other people so that you can find those opportunities that are in the sweet spot for you. Yeah. And I think it's a great call to action to share because moms, you know, we're all different and have different personalities. Some people are more outgoing and not, but I think there is a stereotype of moms were in the season of giving a lot to other people. And so sometimes we might forget to share what's really important to us or what we think our skills are. So I think this is just a good reminder that that's important and that's something to focus on and to share. It's so important. And you would want to know from your other mom friends what's exciting to them. Ask them. Ask them what's giving them energy. What are they interested in right now? Let's start to have more of those conversations because then we can best support each other. Yeah. Great. And then you also kind of talk about criteria. So ⁓ you mentioned money and that a job is something we do for money. So that's one criteria that jumps to me potentially. But how do you think about criteria when people are thinking about whether it's staying in their job, making a change, going back to work? How does criteria come into it? Yeah. The career and life criteria model is definitely something that I've pulled from my work at Harvard Business School in coaching. And I think it's one of the best ways that we can start to simplify this idea of creating a map or a rubric for how we make decisions for our career. So often, we end up comparing one job to another job. Like, well, I'm in this job right now. Would that job be better? Or I'm looking at two different jobs I could apply to. Which one is better? I don't know that's really all that effective to be honest, because they could be better in different ways. What we need to do is really get clear on what your criteria are so that we can compare your job to this criteria and say, how well does it match up? Or another opportunity to your criteria to see how well it matches up. So they're not comparing apples to oranges. We're comparing the apple to your list of things that you said actually matter. And that's going to be different for me. It's going to be different for you. And I think people skip the step because kind of like, I'm like, ⁓ I can do it in my head. I know what's important to me, but I think there's something to be said about taking the time to write it down and to think about it. Exactly. And I break it down into five different categories. Let's put some, like, again, I'd love to put some structure around these things because we all have the swirling whirling thoughts and It can be hard to manage all of those thoughts unless we put it down on paper. So one of the categories is needs. How much money do you actually need to be making? Let's get clear. We know this is about your overall fulfillment, but it is around putting food on the table. It is around making sure that your family can reach the goals that you have in every family. Every situation is going to be different. What are your financial needs? Figure out that number. That's my call to action for everyone listening right now. If you don't know what your number is, let's figure out your number. I don't love math either, but it's important to know what that number actually is. That's part of it, but it's also do you need benefits at this stage or are they being covered by a partner? Do you need flexibility? Do you need ability to – your kids have certain needs, you need to get them to appointments. What does it look like for you in this chapter of life? What are your needs? That's one category. huge for so many moms. Oh my gosh. Yeah. ⁓ and flexibility can be both a need and also part of a culture. What are the, what are the elements of culture that are important to you? The way I describe good culture of a company could be very different than how my husband describes it. It could be very different than how you Maria describe it. None of these are bad. We just need to understand what our definition of good culture is. So I asked people when we're building out criteria, let's get clear. What does good culture look like to you? Is it around the values of the company? it the mission of the organization? Is it how they actually define flexibility? Yeah, that's one I probably wouldn't think of, but I think once you're working with a company and organization people, culture is huge. It's part of something you experience every day. why wouldn't you get very clear on what you want? Yeah. So let's put some pen to paper here and describe what your ideal culture looks like. If you've experienced a culture that is not a fit, don't want to say bad culture, but let's just say a culture that was not a fit for you. What would the positive opposite of that look like? Sometimes that's easier for folks to say like, here's the, here's what happened at this last company. Here's what I don't want. Here's what I don't want. Okay, Let's start. Here's what I want. Here's what I want. Here's what's the positive opposite of that would look like. So that's another category of your criteria. Another is your motivators. So for some people it is like, love having getting, getting a bonus. ⁓ Or working on commission is very motivating to me. So a sales role could be well aligned or it could be the mission. Mission is a big one with lot of people that I work with that they're looking to feel aligned with the mission of the organization. They haven't been before, but that's a big motivator for them. So what are the things that get you out of bed in the morning? That's another element of criteria. The fourth one is around the skills, the day to day. How are you actually spending your time? So I would want everyone as they're listening and thinking about their own criteria to say, how do I want to spend my time at work? Do I love collaborating with teams? Do I really want to have my head down in a spreadsheet crunching numbers? Do I want to be writing? Do I want to be managing a team? What are those things that I know that I get the most energy and fulfillment out of doing these types of activities? That's a criteria. And I think some job roles may look similar, but when you start asking about the day to day, they could be really different. It could be. Yep. Yep. So we want to know not just comparing one job to another, compare that job to, once you're asking questions, say, how does this role collaborate with other departments? What are some of the key metrics of success for someone in this position? How are they getting their work done? Let's ask those questions to compare it against your criteria. And then the last criteria that I think is an important one to put on the table is future you. And maybe in this chapter of your life, there are some certain things you're optimizing for in terms of the flexibility, the money, the skills you're using, but you could have a future goal that you want to bridge toward. An example I like to use here is maybe you're someone who you could see yourself owning your own business one day. That's a goal that you have for yourself. right now from a financial perspective, it's not the right time, but you could see yourself doing it. So we want to put that on your criteria that you want to your next role to help create a towards that future position, whether that's creating more of a financial safety net for yourself or building out skills that would allow you to move into a different industry or build your own business in that space or would allow you to have more flexibility at home to be able to be doing things that will help you reach your goal. So having that for you is a good one. Yeah, I think it adds to your fulfillment in the current day, knowing you're working towards something that's important to you. 100%. 100%. And this was something that held very true for me as I was thinking about my own criteria years ago. And I always like go back to this exercise for myself, too, when I'm making decisions about how I how I move about my career, how I take on new opportunities, where I say yes, where I say no, it's based on criteria. And something I did have for myself as a future you was that I wanted to have a lot of control over my schedule. I didn't at the time, but I wanted to have a lot of control over my schedule. So I was going to start taking on projects in my day job at the time that I could see doing without needing to be in the office. So things like writing or coaching. Could I lean more into those skills so that I could take that and do it in a more flexible way in the future? Even if I couldn't do it right now, I wanted to build up those skills. I feel like a lot of people have those too, like ways that we can job craft a bit to help us reach that next goal. That was actually going to be my next question. So it's like, and there's a few things that tie into it. One, I think you have a chapter called use your imagination for me. I like to think about it. Like if someone is currently in a job and they're debating what's next for me, maybe they're not feeling completely fulfilled. Maybe the flexibility isn't a hundred percent there for school pickups or the things that are important to them with kids. What does someone do? Do you just start job searching? Like what are, what are kind of the next steps? What do you tell people to do? Yeah. I think for some people, a job search is, is the right next step. But I suggest if you're feeling like this isn't working, if that's what you're thinking, it's like, this isn't working. Let's do this step of the career and life criteria. Ask yourself, what am I really trying to optimize for? Instead of just saying this isn't working, this isn't working. Ask yourself, what am I trying to optimize for? Write out those criteria. time? Is it skills? Yeah. Like what's, what's feeling off? Maybe I'm not using the skills I want to use. Maybe the flexibility that I actually need isn't there. What is that specific flexibility that I need? Let's get detailed about what that means to you. And then let's look at your current job and say, how well is this matching up to criteria across all the different categories? If it's matching up pretty well financially, okay, great. It's matching up pretty well in terms of the culture of the organization, pretty good, but it's not matching on the flexibility. need to be home more. Okay, do you need a whole new job? Or do you need to propose a different arrangement in your current work? This helps us to define. Yeah, this helps us to define what we actually need. if that person is saying, actually, that's fitting a lot of my criteria, except I want to be able to be home a bit more. Could you make a proposal to be working remotely a couple of days a week? Could you make a proposal to have an alternate work schedule? and that you are in the office and then coming home. People do this. And I want to give people like empower them to think, ⁓ you know what? I've never actually proposed anything different. I've just sat here and thought that is bad. Yeah. And also I know you have worked with people to do this successfully. So I think my first reaction is yes, I want to ask for more flexibility to work from home and then I can see my kids off to school or get them from the bus. ⁓ but I'm just afraid they're going to say no or think I'm not really working as hard or, know, how, how do I do this successfully? Because I'm almost turning myself down before I've even asked the question. Exactly. Exactly. And that's what most people do. They say no to themselves before they let some give someone the opportunity to say yes. So I hear what you're saying. Absolutely. And I think that's, I'm glad that you're voicing it in this way. I'm afraid that they're going to say no. If that's a fear that you're saying, I'm afraid that they're going to say no. Why? Why are you afraid that they're going to say no? Because I've never seen anyone else do it at the company. Okay. Is that a real reason for me not to ask? Probably not. I'm afraid I'm going to say no because they don't think I'm going to be working as hard. Okay. How do I make sure I structure my proposal to highlight here are the projects that I'm working on. Here's how I actually could be even more effective if I have some quiet time or I actually have even have more time available because I'm not commuting. I'm afraid that they're going to say no because what are the other reasons? What else could they say no for? They don't want to set a precedent for the company. Well, why not? Do they want to keep people who are at this level of talent? Probably. So let's give them the opportunity to keep me by saying before I have to say this to them, but like before I go job search. Let's give this company who's meeting a lot of the criteria an opportunity to keep me by submitting a proposal, having a conversation saying, here's where I know I'm adding a lot of value. Here's where I'm really enjoying my work. Here's what's missing for me right now. So I'd love for us to be able to work together to make this work. And here's what I propose. Let's collaborate on this. It's not an ultimatum. You're not marching in and saying, I'm working from home or I'm walking. ⁓ You could, guess, but is that really effective? Probably not. Let's collaborate, just like we would in a negotiation. Let's make it more of a collaborative conversation. ⁓ But if you are feeling scared, just ask yourself why. What is actually really making you nervous about this, and how could that help you strengthen your proposal? And I like the idea of making a proposal, you said. Explain the value that you're bringing to the company explain how you could be more productive or what projects you might be working on while you're home ⁓ I think that's great because instead of just asking can I do it you're actually putting something together a proposal and you're open to this collaborative conversation and you're Expressing what you really enjoy about the job So you're you're not there complaining by any means and you're actually showing interest in the role and what you're doing and and passion there. So yeah, that's a different conversation than just shooting off an email. Can I work from home? Exactly. Yeah. And think about if you ever manage people, so anyone listening right now, if you ever manage people, don't you love it when they come to you, not just with a problem, but they come with a problem and a potential solution. Yes. And they want to get your feedback on it. And like, here's the problem I'm facing. Here's some ideas that I'd had. I'd love to talk with you about this to kind of pressure test this idea or see if you any other thoughts. That's so much better. than the person who knocks on your door that you manage and says, like, I don't know how to do this. Or like, I'm running into a roadblock. OK, I'll help you. ⁓ But it's the same thing. Like, we want to come be that better team member, better employee who comes with a solution while being open to getting creative about how that work gets done. Yeah. That's great. Great advice. ⁓ And then you have a couple more chapters with funny titles. ⁓ So the next one I have noted down is make new friends. And this one I think is another one that can be hard for some ⁓ moms out there. We're already making mom friends. what is making new friends all about? And how do we do that successfully? Yeah. So as a mom, I know I'm like such a friend pusher. My kids are like, ooh, like who would you sit with at lunch? what friends did you make today? Did you make any new friends? We want our kids to build new relationships. I don't think I'm alone in this. We get excited when we hear about they made a new friend or they're feeling that connection, building those relationships. Because that is how we move about the world, relationships are important in our overall fulfillment, how we enjoy life around us. So we know as parents that relationships are important. When it comes to our career, relationships are also important. And there's all kinds of numbers around this, but it ranges between like 60 to 80 % of new jobs are found through networking and referrals. To put it in a different way, 60 to 80 % of new opportunities, you find them through relationships and people who already know, like, and trust you. So if that, with that in mind, I think it's really important for us to be considering our existing network, including friends and family. including people that we've worked with currently, people we've worked with in the past. All of these folks are part of our existing network. Do the folks that we feel comfortable sharing with know what we're interested in so they can float the right opportunities our way? Or do they not? If they don't, let's ask ourselves why. Why haven't we shared with our existing network? And then also if we have a goal that we want to move into a different direction of our career, is there a gap in our existing network? If so, maybe we need to make some new friends. Not leave our old friends behind, make new friends, keep the old. Like we're trying to expand out our network a bit so that the people in this space know about us and know that we could be a really good fit for helping them to solve a problem. So making new friends is really all about expanding out your network of influence, expanding the people who could know, like, and trust you. and could offer opportunities to you and you could help them in return. Yeah. I like you say no like and trust and that they could ⁓ like you because networking can seem and you talk about it in the book. can seem icky. can seem like, okay, I'm just here to know you so you can get me something. But really instead people who could know, like and trust you, people who would be interested to meet you. Like that's much more. Positive and kind of takes the ick out of networking exactly there's some people have so much like an ick feeling around networking and I describe it as the ick of like walking around with a name tag and a small plate of cheese and saying like I'm just trying to meet strangers and have this like transactional Interaction. It's not really that like the best networking is people helping people People making introductions. ⁓ my gosh, you should know Maria. I should introduce you to Maria and you could have a great conversation because you just have some shared interests. And then maybe Maria introduced you to somebody else. Like, oh, you should talk with this person too. Like you should be part of their extended network. You don't have to be best friends with everybody. But if you're open to helping other people, to allow people to help you to being genuinely interested in what other people do and like the things that light them up, you're going to get a lot out of that interaction. by learning about someone new and like helping them feel good, but you're also expanding your network in that way. Yeah. Great. Great way to frame it. ⁓ and the last chapter that I want to touch on today, ⁓ is about follow the rules. what I love about this chapter is you say we don't have to follow all the rules. So tell us more about follow the rules. Of course. So, so the follow the rules chapter, I break it into two different sections, one around Maybe there are some rules we want to set for ourselves in order to stay on track with our goals, but maybe we want to break some rules too that we've set for ourselves in large part that aren't actually helping us. So the examples that I share, like we tell our kids like to follow the rules. That's something we want to make sure like our kids are following the rules, but if they're seeing something that's not working, we want to empower them to be like, all right, let's question this a little bit. We're not trying to raise tiny, tiny little robots. We're trying to raise kids who, yes, are following the rules of the classroom. But if something is wrong, if something isn't working, let's talk about it. We can do the same thing with our careers and saying, what kind of rules can I set for myself as I'm trying to make a change? And this specifically is in that vein of like, I'm trying to make a change. So what rules can I set for myself? And perhaps that rule is, you know what? In order to make this change, I need to be expanding out. my network. So I'm going to set a rule for myself that once a month I'm trying to be really intentional about reaching out to someone new or being introduced to someone new. That's a rule that I have for myself. I'm setting like a goal, but in a rule format so that I feel kind of obligated to follow through for myself. You had a rule, I believe when you were writing the book for yourself. Yeah, I did. my role was I was getting up at 5 AM. ⁓ and that sounds like bonkers right now because I do not get up at 5 a.m. right now. But if I was to write another book, I probably would do it again because I knew that rule for myself made sense. My kids were little at the time. They were toddlers. They were up by six. They're both up like ready to roll at six. And I was working a full time job. When was I going to write this book? If I really wanted to write it, I was going to write it between five and five a.m. and six a.m. ⁓ And did I break the rules and answer myself? Yeah, because I was feeling sick or like I went to bed too late or like something was wrong with the kids. So sometimes you to break a rule because for our health and wellness, but for the most part, I was following the rule that I set for myself that I was getting up. Most of this book was written at like five 15 in the morning, like sitting on in the dark on my, in my couch, because that's what worked. And that's how it worked for writing a book. But I think it could be different for everyone. Like, can you set a rule for yourself that helps you to keep on track? Yeah. At the same time, there are some rules that, I knew I needed to break rules that I had set for myself or rules that maybe were imposed by other people. And one of those rules for me was that I thought, and I think I was getting this little external stimuli too on this one, that in order to be a successful working mom, that meant I was like climbing a ladder, moving into different roles, staying within this, it wasn't even a corporate environment. I was working in higher education, but I saw that as, that was the definition. of being a successful working mom, going out of my house, working in that environment. I realized I had to break that down a bit and ask myself, like, am I defining success in a way that is actually still true for me? Is that the rule? Is that the way that work has to be? Or can I define success in a different way and basically break the rule of this is what working motherhood looks like and say, I don't... You know what, I don't have to be working nine to five to be successful. I can have a different schedule, I have different way of working. So are there rules that we're telling ourselves or rules that we hear from other people about what we should do? Like the should storm of people being like, should, should, this is what you should want, this is what you should do. Sometimes those feel like rules that we maybe could consider breaking. Yeah, I think that rings so true for me because... throughout my life, you have a vision of yourself, what you're gonna achieve, what you're gonna do, what that's gonna look like. And frankly, for me personally, becoming a mom changes that. But it's, I like that you encourage us to challenge these rules or at least take a look at them because ⁓ it can be hard to let go of this vision of your identity or your future self and say, wait a minute, like I'm letting this go but I'm doing it. You know, it can be kind of for me personally, like a morning of someone that you thought you would become, but intentionally really becoming and pursuing other things and making that shift because you're like, yes, this is actually, I want to break the rule. ⁓ And then you have examples of education. So, you know, someone is, let's say trained as a nurse. So their education says, well, you're going to be a nurse and you're going to work in a hospital or whatever it is. and challenging that. Maybe that's not what the person is meant to do. Exactly. Because life changes, our interests change. That can feel very much like a rule. If you have a specialized education that you've decided when you were 18 years old, and gosh, if we were letting our 18 year old selves making all of the decisions for the rest of our lives, like, yikes, ⁓ would not be interested in 18 year old me making all of my life decisions. But we let ourselves do that. That's a rule that we make for ourselves when it comes to career. So often we're letting 18 year olds selves drive the bus. ⁓ But I've seen so many examples of folks who have maybe a specialized education, but then they have been able to transition it elsewhere. So someone who's coming to mind to me right now, who was an occupational therapist and didn't want to be in the clinic anymore. Okay. Let's figure out how those skills could translate to something else. And is now working in more like strategy and operations with a like women's health startup, using a lot of her experience in a clinic setting to help this company to serve their clients in a better way. There's examples like this on exit. There's so many of people who have decided that I made some choices that I'm not, don't regret the choices that I made early in my life and career. But I want to build on them. I don't want that to be the rule I set for myself that I have to follow this path just because other people have. Yeah, I can do it differently. I have options. Yes. Options. Always coming back to options. Sure does. ⁓ So on that, think the last question I have about your work with the book, ⁓ actually, I heard this on your podcast where you talk about the power of silence. and that resonated with me and I just thought it's very interesting and it's something that people can take away and literally try today or whenever you're listening. So what, what is it about silence? Yeah. Silence to me is one of the most important tools we have in our career tool belt, but probably just life tool belt too, because we are surrounded by so much stimuli on a regular basis. And it's funny to be saying this. said at my own podcast, we're saying it on this podcast. People are probably out and about listening, which is great. Like outside stimuli. Yeah. Keep listening. It can be wonderful because we're gaining new insights. But I think it's important that we're incorporating silence into our day as well, because we have, we're watching TV, we're listening to the radio, listening to podcasts, we're listening to audio books or reading books. We have our kids climbing all over us, telling us their stories. There's a lot. of noise, some of it's really valuable noise, but there's just a lot of that noise. If we can carve out these moments of silence, these periods of silence, that's when our brain gets into more of this default mode. And I mentioned it in the book and I reference her name and it's escaping me at the moment, but there was a doctor who did studies on this around how our brains, how they react. when we have more silent and quiet space. And that's when our brains start to form more connections because we're letting them do their job. We are, it's great to absorb all this information, but what are we going to do with it? And the silence allows our brains to do the job of starting to make connections. Say, I listened to this great thing on Maria's podcast and now I'm going to sit with it and reflect and decide how I'm going to move forward with that information. So something that I did when I first heard about this, I realized I was surrounding myself by stimuli all the time. Unless I was sleeping, there was like some kind of noise that was happening. ⁓ So I decided, yeah, it's very common. So I decided that when I was in the car and I was driving into work, this is when I was commuting, at least 20 minutes of that drive, no outside stimuli besides the cars around me. I didn't have a radio on, wasn't listening to a podcast. I just kept it quiet in the car. And in that quiet, can feel pretty boring at first because we're used to having a lot of other people talking around us. But in those moments of quiet, I was able to really reflect on what I had learned and make new connections, allow my brain to get into this like default mode where the creativity seeps in and I value it so much because one of my children's books I wrote entirely in moments of silence in my car, like mentally I was like, oh, hang on, an idea is coming to me. Like this rhyme is starting to come together. And eventually after I had my moments of silence, I just recorded it into my phone. And I've seen it for other people too. They've been like, you know what? I was listening to this part of your career clarity program, doing this module. And then I went for a walk and I didn't put any headphones in. I just went for a walk. And I had these light bulb moments, light bulb moments don't come when you're surrounded by a lot of other outside voices. Light bulb moments come in the quiet. So we need to find ways to bring a little bit more quiet, seek out good information, and then give yourself some quiet to reflect and make connections. That's where the magic happens. This is great because you brought in the brain science where the brain is making connections. But it's also great because you don't have to do anything. So you're not trying to say, okay, I'm reflecting on this. I'm thinking about this. You're just kind of going on your day. You're going on default, like you said. So you're just, you're just driving or you're just showering or whatever you're doing and I walking and ideas are coming to you. And some of them could be light bulb ideas. You're making these connections, but you're not concentrating on like a reflection session or anything. you're just relaxing and your brain is just naturally doing what it does. Exactly. Exactly. And those are great examples of like, think about some of your best ideas that come in the shower. Why do they come in the shower? Because it's quiet in there. No one's bugging you. That's why that's like, that's an actual like science behind is that like our brain gets in default mode. know what we're doing in the shower, so we're not trying to think about it. And our brains in default mode, we come up with ideas. Like, ⁓ that's what I should have said to that person. Or, ⁓ this is the idea. Like I should write this down after I got out the shower because that's what I want to do on my, put this on my to-do list of things that are going to help me reach that goal faster. I bet everyone listening has had one of these like moments in the shower. If we can create more moments in the shower with just leaving the headphones at home, if you're going for a walk, turning off the radio for even 10 minutes. Gosh, like you can create these little micro moments of quiet that lead to some really good insights and help you to move forward. Yeah, amazing. OK, Becca, we're ready to wrap here. Is there anything else that you need listeners to know? I think I want to go back to something that we said at the very beginning. It's been sprinkled in throughout our conversation, Maria, is this word options. And I talk about it a lot, which is why the name of my business is Next Chapter Careers. That's very intentional. I do feel like we can live our lives and our careers. can build them in chapters. Our favorite books have multiple chapters. It's not just one big long story. There are multiple chapters and I think chapters also equates this idea of options that you have. You've had chapters early in your life and career that you have written through your education, through your work experience, through your lived experience. You have all that. That's always yours. Your chapters. But now you can create new ones. And you can use all those past chapters to help you write the next one, but it doesn't have to be the same chapter that you just had. That'd be a very boring book if every chapter was exactly the same. Let's build on it because you've given yourself options through all that hard work, through all those experiences that you had through those chapters you've already written, you've given yourself options to now build on it and write a new one. So that's what I want to leave people with, this idea of Your life can be lived in chapters and you have options. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. For me, options is very empowering. It's just such an empowering message. ⁓ So I hope that's what people take away. ⁓ Becca, where can people find your book and where can people find you at Next Chapter Careers? Absolutely. I think one of the best places people can go is just whenmommygrowseup.com. So that's a hub. You can find the podcast there. You can find the book there. It links over to Next Chapter Careers, my coaching site. So head over to whenmommygrowseup.com. I'm also on LinkedIn a lot. That's my social media of choice. So if folks are over on LinkedIn, come find me, connect with me there. I love being able to talk with other people about their next chapter of their careers and see if there's ways that can be helpful in helping them get there. Awesome. Well, I think you provided invaluable advice to so many people listening. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me.