Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Your Horse Can Feel Your Heartbeat | Kansas Carradine | EAW 55

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Your Horse Can Feel Your Heartbeat | Kansas Carradine | EAW 55 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

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  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
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  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
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  author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
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  Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
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  thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
• 0:15
  I have a request.
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  If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
• 0:22
  It really helps us get this work done.
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  As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
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  And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
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  equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
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  If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
• 0:40
  com.
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  So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
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  Welcome back, everyone.
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  I've got Kansas with me, Kansas Carradine.
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  It's always a massive treat to be anywhere in the vicinity, even virtually
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  from Kansas Carradine because she carries a certain light with her.
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  She's not just a master horsewoman.
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  She's not just somebody who has, hmm, brought the compassionate side of
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  the horse world many steps forward.
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  She's not just those things.
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  She's also someone who carries a technology with her that if you're
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  involved in the equine-assisted world as we are it's a necessary technology for
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  us to understand, and it's HeartMath.
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  This is not the only thing she does and not the only thing she offers, but
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  it's where-- something I think I want to start with, with this conversation
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  because HeartMath comes up a lot in The Horse Boy and Tacking trainings.
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  It comes up a lot in quite a lot of other modalities.
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  But a lot of people are a bit unsure about what it actually is, how it
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  actually works, and why it's a thing.
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  So it's silly to have me explain that because I'm somebody who
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  benefits from HeartMath rather than being a practitioner of HeartMath.
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  So those of you listening, if you are involved in the equine-assisted
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  practice of any kind, it is something that I think one needs to understand,
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  and it is something which I would actually encourage you to add to your
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  modalities and actually take a course in.
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  But let's start with why that might be a good idea and then we'll
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  take the conversation from there.
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  So Ka-Kansas, thank you so much.
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  Tell us all about it.
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  Thank
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  Kansas Carradine: you, Rupert.
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  Thank you so much for having me on.
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  And yeah, you know, we all carry around with us our, our connection
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  to source, our connection to the The energetic world, you know, we're all
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  energy beings, and when you talk about HeartMath, they've been putting around
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  research, and it's really two things.
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  You talk about the HeartMath system or it, it is a modality, but it's
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  also an institute of research.
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  Right.
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  So the organization at HeartMath and the scientists there have really been
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  very interested in the energetics of communication, the energetics
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  of how we relate to each other.
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  The heart itself is an electromagnetic organ, so it's
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  always broadcasting and receiving.
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  And I often say in the equine world, horses are very well known
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  for sensing our fear, but they can also sense other emotions, right?
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  So they can sense our appreciation.
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  They can sense our compassion, which you spoke already about.
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  They can sense our patience.
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  They can sense our self-importance and our arrogance.
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  And all of that is, is being broadcast very subtly, and they're
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  picking up on it all the time.
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  And I first stumbled upon HeartMath actually at a, a retreat, a spiritual
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  retreat in Los Angeles with a, with a teacher named Gangaji, and I met
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  one of the practitioners, as you mentioned, so people who've decided
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  to study the science of the heart.
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  You know, we talk so much in the poetry about how the heart has
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  meaning and assigns, it gives us a sense of courage, right?
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  In French, coeur is heart.
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  When we're full of heart- Mm.
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  Courage.
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  Yeah ... we're full of care.
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  Courage, yeah.
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  We're connected.
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  From the heart.
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  Yeah.
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  We're connected to that heart power, and it can give us really a motivation.
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  It gives us energy, and it gives us a sense of inner alignment, right?
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  So connected to our purpose.
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  And what they found, the institute researchers, is that heart coherence is
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  a measurable state, that just like in a symphony, the conductor of the heart
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  is creating an organization between all the organs and actions within our body.
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  So when we're connected to something that we care about, connected to our
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  purpose, connected to the sense and the feeling of appreciation, it actually
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  organizes things within our being, and that creates an even tempo to follow.
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  So I love the marriage of bringing this into the equine therapy work, especially
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  with Hor- Horse Boy Method, because so much of it is about creating rhythm,
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  and that organized rhythm, that tempo, like humans who are involved in dancing
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  or posting trot, you know, sitting in, in a collected trot in the piaffe and
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  passage and the high school movements.
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  This is all creating a sense of tempo and rhythm within the body, and your heart
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  is doing a similar thing all the time.
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  And one of the ways that we practice that is also consciously, because
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  it happens accidentally when we're connected to things that bring us joy.
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  When you are connected with your cat who comes up on your, on your lap, for
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  example, or you're just appreciating like the beauty of a landscape and
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  watching the natural world, you are experiencing a sense of ease
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  and that creates order and rhythm.
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  But then we can deliberately do that also by noticing breath patterns, so there's
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  an integrated with your breath pattern.
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  In fact, right now all of the listeners can just focus their
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  attention on the chest area, the heart.
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  And there's actually over 40,000 different neurons within the heart,
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  this intrinsic cardiac nervous system.
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  So there's a tiny heart brain that is really recognized.
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  So as you collaborate with your heart intelligence, just
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  focus your attention there.
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  And as you breathe, imagine that your breath is flowing in and out
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  through the chest area and just a little bit slower and a little
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  bit deeper than you usually do.
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  And invite in an even inhale and exhale.
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  So for this practice, we want the breath to come in through
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  the heart and out through the heart at an even and equal pace.
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  And just that 30-second pause of slowing down right away begins to
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  balance the autonomic nervous system.
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  And we can take it a step further by connecting to our care.
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  What do you love?
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  What brings you joy?
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  What inspires you?
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  Or what makes you laugh?
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  Before we started the recording, we were talking about laughter.
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  And it's a great medicine because it's a portal to the heart.
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  It creates a heart opening.
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  And practicing that on a regular basis reminds us the sweet spot.
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  It's the same feeling that we get when we're experiencing lightness in the
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  saddle that we want to continue to-- Our muscle memory continues to seek that out.
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  And then the very interesting part of the research, 'cause there's lots of
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  different domains that the institute really has focused their attention of
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  study, but all of our emotions have an impact on our body, and they also
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  have an impact on the social energetics that we share in the room with.
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  So some people are doing Reiki, some people are working with, you know, a
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  hands-on balancing of the energetic systems, and the heart is working
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  within this unique electromagnetic field environment that we can feel
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  when we are in each other's space.
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  So there's a very famous picture that people send around that
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  has this toric field, right?
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  So about as wide as you can stretch your hands.
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  Rupert Isaacson: What's a toric field?
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  Not everybody knows.
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  The
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  Kansas Carradine: toric, the toric field is there's, It's, it's like an apple
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  core of energy that is coming up and out from the heart, uprising up in front of
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  your body and extending out as far as you can with your arms, and that's the
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  measurable pulse of the heart radiating.
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  And depending on what we're feeling, whether it's joy or gratitude or
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  potentially fear or sadness, there is a unique energetic fingerprint to
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  the feelings and emotions that we're broadcasting out into that field.
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  Well, horses being so much larger than we are, their hearts also broadcast a
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  much wider field, which is one of the reasons why we're in the presence of
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  a grounded, coherent horse, and that's very important why it feels so good.
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  Now, if we're in the presence of a horse that is, In a state of fight or
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  flight, a horse that's been abused, who's-- You know, I gave the example
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  yesterday when I was giving a talk.
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  Here in the American West, we're still rounding up mustangs and
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  separating them from family bands and whatnot with helicopters.
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  So if you were surrounded by that, horses that were in that type of fight or flight
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  survival mode panic state, one would not feel the same very low frequencies
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  and that same presence as being calming.
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  So it's very important to understand that the coherent broadcast depends
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  on the individual, the being, and then there's also this important component.
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  There's two terminals, right?
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  So when we're connected to our appreciation and the facilitators are
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  doing that, they're creating a safe space.
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  Some of the people that I work with, I love, they talk about creating a
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  failure-free space, which is very much I believe Horse Boy method aims
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  to do through all of its programs.
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  The human's facilitation of that, along with the hor- horse kind of being
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  that, that fuel, that energetic, and is where the facilitator is guiding that
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  energetic of compassion, of safety, of care, of understanding, laughter,
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  love- Well-being ... all of that.
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  Yes.
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  Yeah.
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  Well-being.
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  That's what's the magic ingredient that's creating some of these interactions,
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  and we're gonna hear more and more about research studies from HeartMath
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  as as the instrumentation becomes more popular within the equine therapy sector.
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  I'm, I'm confident of that.
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  There's different documentaries where they're talking more and more about it.
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  But a- again, I love you saying it's a modality that we can add on.
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  There's more to just the breath practice, but that's really the primary component.
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  Rupert Isaacson: I was gonna ask a question, but I don't, I don't
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  want to- We can all add that onto what we're already doing
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  I don't want to- No, go ahead ... I don't want to interrupt.
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  Please finish that thought, and then I'll go with my questions.
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  Kansas Carradine: Yeah, just I love the fact that it's an add-on
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  to what we're already doing.
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  So it's not something that you have to stop and say, "Okay, well, I'm
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  practicing this, that means I can't do this thing at the other time."
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  Right?
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  As I'm riding in the saddle, and as I mentioned, I was introduced to this 20
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  years ago, and it became such a a personal technique that I was using to my equine
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  entertainment a- interactions, right?
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  So I was a acrobatic stunt rider with the equestrian show that was touring around
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  the world called Cavalia for many years.
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  And we worked with a lot of stallions, and we had...
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  Actually, we had, one of our shows, we had, like, 70 head of horses, all
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  geldings, many of them stallions.
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  It's a very strange environment when I first got there.
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  I thought, "This is way too m- where's all the mares around here?"
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  But we had lots of women in the cast and, of course, in the stables
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  doing a lot of brilliant work.
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  But it, there was a lot of masculine, strong energy.
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  And so, having, and I wouldn't say the control you know, we talk a
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  lot about, like, self-control and self-regulation, and that comes from a
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  very rigid, dominating mindset really.
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  But it's about how to partner and how to blend with these energies because
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  we wanted to have this full-bodied equine and their, we want their
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  feisty nature, and it's beautiful.
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  It's why people come and pay tickets- Yeah, you want passion ... to see that.
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  And, and that, that's why you have the stallions.
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  The
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  passion.
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  Yeah.
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  And the unex- and the unexpected quality.
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  Mm.
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  I always tease that we're only used to working, you know, with the
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  eunuchs, the geldings, and people don't even like to work with mares.
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  We don't like the full hormonal experience that equines bring to us.
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  It's unpredictable.
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  Interesting.
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  I've never understood that.
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  It's a blend with that.
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  Rupert Isaacson: W- I, I hear a lot of people say, "Oh, I don't like mares."
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  It's like, I love mares.
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  I've always loved mares.
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  I've never understood- Right, right ... why people have these weird attitudes.
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  But I can- Yeah ... understand how if you've got a traveling show
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  with a bunch of stallions, that if you have mares coming into season-
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  Stallions ... this could introduce danger- Certainly ... for people.
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  Certainly.
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  And y- practically, it's probably you're choosing-
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  Exactly ... the one or the other.
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  But yeah, yeah.
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  'Cause of the confined spaces.
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  Exactly.
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  Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
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  Right.
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  Right.
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  There's lots of factors that go into that.
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  And then when I was also navigating through my own mental health,
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  and nobody was talking about mental health at that time.
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  Mm.
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  But I was looking at HeartMath as a way for my own emotional self-regulation
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  just to make it through the day.
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  Is that why you found
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  And I added it
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  on.
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  Correct.
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  Okay.
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  I was not seeking- 'Cause that, that's the question I had ... how
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  can I be a better horse trainer?
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  I was not looking around seeking new modalities.
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  At that time I was just, like many people, trying to make it through
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  the day, trying to make it through
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  Rupert Isaacson: the day.
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  So how did you...
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  But we find many things when we're looking for solutions for our mental health thing.
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  And just playing pure devil's advocate for the breathing exercise, which
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  is totally sound, we know it works.
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  I just did it with you.
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  I felt it work.
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  A skeptic would say, "Ah, but those breathing exercises
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  have been around forever.
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  You know, how, why is this HeartMath thing, you know, trademarking
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  something which, you know, is just something which we do?"
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  We all know that if we take a deep breath for a few seconds things
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  are gonna go better, our heart rate will come down, blah, blah, blah.
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  That's what a skeptic might say.
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  Now, you and I both know that what HeartMath have done is
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  start to measure and prove.
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  Mm.
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  And one of the great contributions that science makes is often not so
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  much the breakthrough discoveries.
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  It's about often the confirmation of why the common sense thing that we've
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  been using forever works, so that when someone comes along and says,
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  "Actually, you've got to hit kids to make them work," then you can say- Mm
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  "No, here is the science about why being nice to kids- Mm ... actually
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  makes them learn better."
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  Because that's sort of why we need these things.
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  So the skeptics, you know, when they say, "Ah, well, we know how to breathe."
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  It's like, "Well, yes, but you don't know why it works."
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  Mm.
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  And if you know why it works, then when someone comes along and is sh-
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  yelling at you in a horsey situation, and you say to them, or in a therapeutic
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  situation, 'cause it does happen, and people often yell when they
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  don't even think they're yelling.
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  And you say, "Well, actually, look, if you do it like this, it's, it'll
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  be nicer and it'll work better."
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  And then they go, "Well, if one has the science, then the doesn't
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  last as long and we get change.
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  So one of the great things I think about the HeartMath Institute is that
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  they have put measures on things.
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  So I'd like you to talk us through that a little bit, but also just talk
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  about, you don't have to, you know, tell us the absolute nitty-gritty of
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  your mental health stuff, but what was, what was the main nuts and bolts of
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  why at that particular time you were looking for some mental health answers?
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  And then how come you found that as opposed to other things
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  that people find, you know?
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  Mm.
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  I'm, I'm curious, always curious about, you know, what's the system of happy
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  accidents by which- Mm-hmm ... people fall into the good technologies that they find.
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  So first, you know, a little bit of your story, however much you wanna share, or
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  don't share is fine, and then into how you actually, why it was this and not
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  something else, given that you were in California where there's a smorgasbord
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  of good mental health stuff available.
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  Kansas Carradine: Certainly, certainly.
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  Well, one of the things that I wanna go back and rewind is you
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  talked about like why does it work for, to a certain degree- Mm.
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  ... when you, you, you know, you use strong force, you know, shouting
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  or corporal punishment and whatnot.
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  And that was actually one of the questions that I had, and this is interrelated
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  as why is it works with horses.
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  Because I was never willing to, to be the person who would go to that extreme.
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  Mm.
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  And the people who would, obviously they get a lot of times quite fantastic
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  exemplary results to a certain degree.
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  And I was very curious about that question, like why does
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  this type of training seem to have high levels of success?
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  And I was w- working with, or excuse me, I was speaking at
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  a a conference and I met Dr.
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  Steven Peters, who I know you speak about a lot.
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  Mm.
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  One of my heroes, yeah.
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  And he said something to me, even though that I had been studying heart math for
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  probably about two decades at that point.
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  He said something that really connected the dots and just, you know,
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  turned off a bunch of light bulbs.
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  And he said, "We keep-- we need a little bit of sympathetic arousal in order
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  to have that engagement for learning."
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  And that really got my attention because I had been learning about the
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  autonomic nervous system, which I'm sure many of your listeners also are.
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  So the parasympathetic and the sympathetic are two branches of
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  the autonomic nervous system.
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  Bang on that, yeah.
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  And one of them is responsible for the els- els- ele- acceleration.
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  The other one is that parachute.
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  I could never remember it until someone said the parachute is
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  gently bringing us down to earth.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And you spoke about how there's lots of breathing exercises,
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  and many of them work.
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  And when we want to slow things down 'cause we're in a hyperventilating state
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  or we've had a fright, maybe someone's fallen off of a horse, you really
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  wanna slow things down by doing that double or even longer exhale, right?
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  That's putting the brakes on our system.
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  And there's other techniques, you know, those who've traveled in India might
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  have done some pranayama breathing.
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  And when you have fast accelerated breath- That's creating an awakening energy.
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  It's like having a cup of coffee.
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  You're like, "Okay, I need to wake up," without the caffeine,
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  right?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  So our breath, we don't really understand all of the mechanisms of
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  it, and it's more than just relaxation.
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  So that's a really important point.
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  HeartMath is not a relaxation technique.
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  For some people who are in a high level of stress with all of the work that we
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  have to do, and the phones, and the EMFs, yes, we need to soothe the nervous system.
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  But that's not what it does to someone who is in a shutdown state where
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  their parasympathetic is locked in.
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  It can actually start to create a little bit of an increasing energy,
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  or what I love, thank you so much to Stephen Peters, is it creates that
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  little bit of sympathetic arousal- Yeah, excitement ... which we need.
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  Yeah.
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  And then we get into that sweet spot, so that's why it's the balancing, okay?
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  And I say that a lot because I think people really fetish being
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  in parasympathetic all the time.
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  But someone who's depressed, and now I'm circling back to your question, like
• 18:51
  I was, does not need more relaxation.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 18:54
  Kansas Carradine: Okay?
• 18:55
  Mm.
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  And so I had, Yeah, 'cause you need to
• 18:58
  Rupert Isaacson: move from where you are.
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  Yes.
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  Kansas Carradine: Right.
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  Right.
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  And what is interesting is the heart has this adaptogenic response.
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  Adaptogenic meaning it is a tonic that will come in to either create
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  that nerve you know, a nerve tonic like ginseng or ashwagandha.
• 19:15
  These are herbs that will either soothe the nervous system to be able to rest
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  and sleep better at night, or to be alert enough to handle the tasks during
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  the day, whether it's going to school or going to work and whatnot, right?
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  And so the heart has that same adaptogenic response.
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  And I first discovered it, or I, I should say I was on a-- I was a spiritual seeker,
• 19:36
  so beyond my mental health, I was just trying to find meaning in life, right?
• 19:41
  And so quite interesting, my ancestor was actually a a minister and had
• 19:47
  written, oh gosh, like two dozen books on the sanc- sanctification and on
• 19:52
  his relationship and walk with Jesus.
• 19:55
  And they're still in print.
• 19:56
  They are still highly valued.
• 19:57
  Beverly Carradine was his name.
• 19:59
  He had, Two
• 20:00
  Rupert Isaacson: thousand
• 20:01
  Kansas Carradine: books?
• 20:01
  Five to seven.
• 20:02
  He, he wrote like two dozen, like 24 books on the sanctification.
• 20:06
  Yes.
• 20:06
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh, two dozen.
• 20:07
  Okay.
• 20:07
  Right.
• 20:08
  Sorry, I heard two thousand.
• 20:08
  Two dozen.
• 20:09
  Two
• 20:09
  Kansas Carradine: dozen.
• 20:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Whoa, he was busy.
• 20:10
  No, two
• 20:10
  Kansas Carradine: dozen.
• 20:11
  Sorry.
• 20:11
  Yeah.
• 20:12
  No, that would be quite extraordinary.
• 20:14
  It would be-- Yeah.
• 20:15
  He'd still be going, I think.
• 20:17
  Yes.
• 20:17
  Yeah.
• 20:17
  No.
• 20:17
  But still, still two dozen, and the fact that there's anything in print you
• 20:20
  know, from Carradine is interesting.
• 20:20
  Two dozen is,
• 20:20
  Rupert Isaacson: is-- Do you-- When was that?
• 20:22
  Beverly Carradine?
• 20:23
  Kansas Carradine: Well, he was in the late 1800s.
• 20:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 20:26
  Yeah.
• 20:26
  I'll look him up.
• 20:27
  In the South- Make a note now ... he was a Southern
• 20:28
  Kansas Carradine: minis- minister.
• 20:29
  Okay.
• 20:29
  And and so, you know, fascinatingly enough, I had been raised around a lot
• 20:36
  of I guess more esoteric introductions whether it was from Eastern thought and
• 20:41
  Eastern religion, and then my mom was a very devout Catholic, and my grandmother
• 20:45
  on my father's side was Christian Science.
• 20:48
  And so, a lot of influences in that way, and this desire to,
• 20:52
  you know, understand the unseen.
• 20:55
  I'll just put it that way.
• 20:56
  Whatever your search for is with spirituality or something- Mm-hmm
• 21:00
  ... that's a little bit mysterious, we're trying to understand the unseen, 'cause
• 21:04
  we spend- The ineffable ... so much time in our education focusing on the 3D,
• 21:08
  focusing on that which is tangible, and only really relying on our visual sense.
• 21:12
  And so it was-- there was this intuitive thing that was inside that was encouraging
• 21:19
  me to turn and look inward and get to exploring the inner mysteries.
• 21:23
  But when I turned and looked inward, it was not a pleasant place.
• 21:26
  It was not a happy place.
• 21:27
  I was really distraught, and there was a lot of imprinting and conditioning
• 21:32
  in my, in my youth and in my childhood that were really traumatic.
• 21:36
  And so like anyone, I was trying to cope with the best strategies that I could.
• 21:41
  I did not have stable, you know, parenting.
• 21:44
  I did both my parents had a lot of addiction and substance abuse that was
• 21:48
  very distracting for them to parenting.
• 21:51
  And then when I was 11, I ran away to a horse camp in the
• 21:57
  Central Valley of California.
• 21:59
  And I ended up being raised by the people who owned that horse program,
• 22:04
  and they happened to- Did your parents sort of breathe a sigh of
• 22:06
  Rupert Isaacson: relief when you did that and say, "Okay, now we don't really need
• 22:08
  to-" But what I mean is did they like arrive in a car and say, "Get back in
• 22:13
  this car, young lady," or did they sort of say, "Actually, she's following her heart.
• 22:17
  This is cool.
• 22:17
  We trust these people."
• 22:19
  See what I mean?
• 22:19
  My dad
• 22:20
  Kansas Carradine: did that.
• 22:20
  My, my mom was already out of the picture at that point.
• 22:23
  Okay.
• 22:23
  So she wasn't really a player.
• 22:25
  But my my dad did that, and it really came from me.
• 22:28
  So I went to this horse ranch, and I may have spoken about this before on
• 22:32
  Rupert Isaacson: different other podcasts- You have, yeah.
• 22:33
  But tell us again because- ... which is why I
• 22:34
  Kansas Carradine: talk about it in a kind of like, "Oh, this is that old story."
• 22:38
  The Reata Ranch.
• 22:38
  But it was a really interesting moment.
• 22:39
  So I'm, I'm, I'm in sixth grade.
• 22:42
  I was asked, or I was, My stepmother at the time, my evil step-monster
• 22:46
  who, bless her soul, was the catalyst to get me into this horse ranch
• 22:51
  because she was from that region.
• 22:52
  So someone said, "Hey, if you wanna get rid of your stepdaughter for the summer,
• 22:56
  this is a good place to send her to."
• 22:58
  And so I went to this ranch for two weeks, and I was living, breathing,
• 23:03
  and just digesting horses constantly.
• 23:06
  And the first thing that we do, I thought I was more of a hunter-jumper,
• 23:09
  and so I showed up in britches and a helmet, and the first thing that
• 23:12
  we did is put our swimming suits on and ride the horses bareback down
• 23:16
  to the river and swim the horses.
• 23:18
  I mean- That would make you wanna stay ... it was amazing.
• 23:21
  Yeah.
• 23:21
  It was sensory exercise.
• 23:22
  Yeah.
• 23:22
  I was like, "I never wanna leave."
• 23:25
  Yeah.
• 23:25
  And we rode, we started at 7:00 in the morning, and we had another session, you
• 23:28
  know, at 7:00 PM because of the hot days in the Central Valley in the summer.
• 23:32
  Mm.
• 23:32
  So we were swimming with the horses every day.
• 23:34
  We were learning timing to be with them in that rhythmic sort of way, and there
• 23:38
  was a massive amount of rigid structure.
• 23:42
  And so for seven years I went to summer camp and never came home.
• 23:46
  And basically, when I, I went back to go into the world that was chaotic
• 23:50
  and without purpose and meaning at 11 years old, I was strong enough
• 23:54
  to say, "I don't wanna do that.
• 23:56
  I wanna go back and stay at this horse ranch."
• 23:58
  And so I advocated for that, and that was where my dad was
• 24:01
  involved, and he, he called the owners and, "Is this really okay?
• 24:04
  Can she move in?"
• 24:05
  They said, "Yes, absolutely.
• 24:06
  We've done that a few times."
• 24:07
  They had had over 2,000 different students, and there was maybe a handful
• 24:11
  of kind of wayward souls who for different reasons with their families had actually
• 24:16
  moved in under the roof of the, of the trainers, and it was basically,
• 24:20
  you know, a gentleman and his wife.
• 24:23
  And so- This is the Reata- ... it was very, very rigid.
• 24:25
  Right.
• 24:26
  That was Reata Ranch, yeah.
• 24:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 24:28
  And it was rigid, you said.
• 24:29
  They
• 24:29
  Kansas Carradine: have passed away.
• 24:30
  It was extremely rigid.
• 24:31
  It was extremely strong.
• 24:32
  It was extremely...
• 24:33
  It was exactly what you were describing of that yelling in order to get things done.
• 24:38
  Very, very kind and compassionate to the horses.
• 24:41
  Very, very harsh and condescending and disparaging to the riders.
• 24:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Yet you wanted to stay.
• 24:47
  Kansas Carradine: Yet I wanted to stay because I had had no, no care.
• 24:52
  I had had no boundaries.
• 24:54
  And so there was a part of me that- Really embraced the structure,
• 24:58
  the regularity- Can I ask
• 25:00
  Rupert Isaacson: a question?
• 25:00
  When, when you said, And the horses
• 25:02
  here's a question quickly.
• 25:03
  When you said you showed up in your hunter jumper outfit and they said,
• 25:06
  "Put your swimsuit on, we're gonna go swim with the horses," that sounded...
• 25:11
  Yeah, that's obviously to do that safely you need some structures and some good
• 25:14
  horsemanship, but that didn't sound rigid.
• 25:17
  So- Mm-hmm
• 25:18
  then you said, "Oh, it was very rigid."
• 25:19
  So I was like, ooh, that doesn't sound...
• 25:21
  You know.
• 25:21
  So can you just- Right ... what was the paradox there?
• 25:24
  Kansas Carradine: The paradox is I was staying because of the horses, you know?
• 25:28
  If, if, if there's listeners right now who've been in any discipline,
• 25:32
  and maybe it's not even you know, horses, maybe it's gymnastics.
• 25:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:36
  You know, these, these sports that are known for having very, very
• 25:38
  strong discipline and structure- Mm-hmm ... especially in the '80s, right?
• 25:40
  Mm.
• 25:40
  The Bela Karolyi kinda era.
• 25:43
  And but we're in it because there's a love, there's a passion for the
• 25:47
  actual- Got it ... sport itself.
• 25:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:50
  And a love for the horses.
• 25:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:51
  And even though the sport was supposed to be this trick riding discipline- And
• 25:54
  the self-development ... to be able to be free and be on the horses- You, you, your
• 25:56
  Rupert Isaacson: skills- ... was amazing ... expand, right.
• 25:59
  Yeah.
• 25:59
  Kansas Carradine: Most certainly.
• 26:00
  And there was a, a large amount of praise- Mm ... of saying, "Okay,
• 26:04
  we are going to develop you.
• 26:05
  We are going to focus on you.
• 26:06
  We, I believe in you.
• 26:07
  You can do this."
• 26:08
  Because that's an interesting thing about a po- a coach, and I'll rewind
• 26:12
  that back into the equine therapy sector too, because as a facilitator, you
• 26:17
  see the possibility in another being.
• 26:20
  And so your vision, the visionary aspect of the facilitator, the caregiver,
• 26:25
  is that I know you can do this.
• 26:27
  The recognition of talent.
• 26:28
  I see something that you don't see in this moment right now, and that's what
• 26:31
  even a strict coach or trainer is doing.
• 26:35
  You know, there was a moment where I was asked to do a, a full bridge
• 26:38
  backbend on a horse at a gallop in a big arena, and I had been practicing
• 26:43
  it in, in like a 90-foot round pen.
• 26:45
  And he asked me to go do it, and I probably could have in that moment,
• 26:49
  but I was scared and I said no.
• 26:51
  And I just remember like, "That's too much for me.
• 26:54
  I'm not ready to do that trick yet."
• 26:56
  And I had to train for it for like over a year, maybe almost a year and a half.
• 27:00
  And then when I finally got to the point- Mm
• 27:03
  but he had trained me and trained me, "I know she can do it.
• 27:06
  I know she can get there.
• 27:07
  I see something in her that she doesn't see yet."
• 27:09
  He saw the potential, he saw the aptitude, the talent, and all of those things,
• 27:14
  you know, and the mental aspect as well.
• 27:16
  And so I think that as- aspect of the, the leader who was, at times it was
• 27:23
  almost like there was a lot of love involved, there was a lot of care, but
• 27:26
  it all came through this tough love and through a lot of very abrasive...
• 27:30
  You know, we were not allowed to talk and that really imprinted and seeded you
• 27:35
  know, this contrast of su- suppression.
• 27:37
  And so I wasn't allowed to express- Talk during the coaching,
• 27:39
  Rupert Isaacson: during the training sessions or talk ever?
• 27:42
  You were silent for seven years?
• 27:45
  Kansas Carradine: We were pretty silent
• 27:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay
• 27:48
  Kansas Carradine: And so- Was it, was it- ... that suppression- Was
• 27:50
  spoken to- ... in that presence, so in the presence of the, the work
• 27:54
  container of, like, being at the ranch.
• 27:56
  Then after you know, after school, in school, and with other people,
• 28:00
  I was very, very loquacious.
• 28:02
  And so I was always known for being, you know, "You talk
• 28:04
  too much, you talk too fast."
• 28:06
  And I was e- encouraged to really be quiet in a way.
• 28:10
  It's like, okay, shut the F up and listen inwards-
• 28:14
  Rupert Isaacson: Got a question ... to my own change Not a question, but
• 28:16
  something that we need to make clear.
• 28:17
  Oh, okay.
• 28:18
  Okay.
• 28:18
  So for the people listening- Yeah ... the Riata Ranch, just so
• 28:20
  you have some context, that they weren't just doing this in a vacuum.
• 28:23
  What I mean by that is this was a display team.
• 28:25
  This was a professional team that was going around the country really and doing
• 28:30
  these trick displays at a very high level.
• 28:32
  So, just some context there.
• 28:35
  It wasn't just this isolated place in the mountains where they put
• 28:38
  kids through a sort of Shaolin-type horse experience for its own sake.
• 28:42
  It was indeed a, you know, a, a, a money-making show.
• 28:46
  The second thing is that this is a question you were going
• 28:50
  to school in this time or they homeschooled you at the ranch?
• 28:54
  Kansas Carradine: I was going to public school.
• 28:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 28:56
  So you'd get up in the morning, you'd go to school, you'd come back to there, and
• 29:03
  you would then begin your work with the horses once you arrived back at the ranch.
• 29:08
  Kansas Carradine: Yes.
• 29:09
  Yes, and what you said about the Shaolin school is actually
• 29:12
  really apropos, but go ahead.
• 29:14
  Rupert Isaacson: Then, well, usually when you're in a monastic environment
• 29:18
  like that as a kid, there's a bunch of other kids going through it with you.
• 29:21
  Was that also the case?
• 29:21
  Was there a sisterhood?
• 29:23
  Or were you the only one of your age who was living there and the rest was
• 29:27
  older ones who were living elsewhere coming in and being part of the team?
• 29:31
  Like, how, how did that work?
• 29:32
  Kansas Carradine: I was the latter.
• 29:33
  So I was the only one who was living there and I stayed up at the house
• 29:37
  for those seven years and with the really loving embrace, with the loving
• 29:42
  embrace of the, the main trainers.
• 29:45
  His name was Tom Meyer and his wife was Vicky and Vicky was just
• 29:49
  a gem of any loving caregiver that you could ever imagine and
• 29:53
  write in a storybook, you know?
• 29:54
  Rupert Isaacson: So you were getting that nurturing?
• 29:55
  Apple
• 29:55
  Kansas Carradine: pie and all of that.
• 29:56
  Absolutely.
• 29:57
  Rupert Isaacson: Because you- And- ... you painted a picture of, of, of harsh
• 30:00
  discipline using- Right ... humiliation and screaming and, and so on.
• 30:06
  Kansas Carradine: Oh, yeah.
• 30:06
  Rupert Isaacson: Where was that coming in?
• 30:07
  What was the balance?
• 30:10
  Kansas Carradine: Yeah, so when I say that this, you said the Shaolin school because
• 30:13
  there was a methodical aspect to it.
• 30:15
  Everything was, there was a massive amount of importance
• 30:18
  placed on every single detail.
• 30:20
  Indeed.
• 30:20
  So the way that we raked the pattern in the yards, the way that we put up
• 30:25
  our, all of our tools, it was very systematic and that rhythm, that
• 30:29
  expected rhythmic rhythm is therapeutic.
• 30:33
  So- I can, I can say not all of the 2,000, or rather over 3,000 students
• 30:38
  who passed through the threshold going over the railroad tracks into this ranch
• 30:43
  had the same experience that I did.
• 30:45
  They had different upbringings and they went to their families
• 30:48
  at night, and I basically went, you know, there was very...
• 30:51
  I had very little visitors from family 'cause they were like, "Okay, Kansas
• 30:55
  is there as kind of an afterthought."
• 30:57
  So I was largely alone, and I was dealing with my own abandonment is- issues.
• 31:01
  And in the loving presence of, you know, sweet Vicky, as I mentioned,
• 31:05
  there was definitely a healing that occurred on many, many levels.
• 31:08
  But I was, like, somewhat of an only child or very much raised that way.
• 31:12
  And these other girls came in and out and we developed a sisterhood, and yet
• 31:17
  I was always kind of set apart in a very different category, and also because
• 31:21
  of my family upbringing and whatnot.
• 31:24
  And so the suppression, I would say, of being able to talk, and
• 31:28
  mental health wasn't discussed.
• 31:29
  There was no opportunity to, you know, have a counselor, anything like that.
• 31:33
  It was very much the philosophy of you know, be tough as nails.
• 31:37
  If you're experiencing any pain, stuff it, continue.
• 31:40
  The show must go on, like, was really the moniker that I didn't d- start to really
• 31:45
  dissect until much, much later in my life.
• 31:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 31:50
  So there was this balance between tough love and actual nurturing
• 31:55
  love, enough that you, in the seven years you were there, could function
• 32:03
  when you went out into the world.
• 32:05
  Why did you leave there and go on out into the world, and where did
• 32:08
  you go out into the world from?
• 32:09
  Because I could imagine that there was a, a career structure, and you
• 32:12
  were from a bit of a showbiz family anyway, and Reata Ranch is also showbiz.
• 32:17
  So why...
• 32:18
  And then you went into showbiz with Cavalia took all that training and
• 32:23
  discipline that you got from Reata into that amazing Cavalia show.
• 32:27
  So why didn't you stay with Reata?
• 32:31
  Kansas Carradine: Because there was a part of my soul that knew that
• 32:33
  it was soul-crushing, I would say.
• 32:36
  I actually wanted to leave earlier because I wanted to pursue a Broadway career.
• 32:41
  I really fancied myself a, a singer and I wanted to quit the- Does
• 32:45
  that mean you're gonna give us
• 32:45
  Rupert Isaacson: a song?
• 32:48
  Kansas Carradine: No, it's not.
• 32:49
  Maybe someday.
• 32:49
  Kansas- Maybe in person ... is going to give us a
• 32:50
  Rupert Isaacson: song.
• 32:51
  Kansas Carradine: Thank you so much- Kansas
• 32:53
  Rupert Isaacson: is courage to sing ... Kansas, for letting us know
• 32:54
  Kansas Carradine: that.
• 32:54
  Yeah.
• 32:55
  It was- I'll sing one if you do
• 32:55
  it was...
• 32:56
  You'll sing one r- in this moment right now.
• 32:59
  Rupert Isaacson: When, when, in this moment.
• 33:00
  Kansas Carradine: Somewhere over the rainbow.
• 33:02
  No, I can't sing.
• 33:03
  It's 6:00 in the morning.
• 33:03
  Yeah, that was good.
• 33:04
  K- keep going, keep going.
• 33:06
  Rupert Isaacson: Somewhere over the rainbow.
• 33:10
  Kansas Carradine: Okay.
• 33:11
  Now my performance anxiety is coming up, which is why I learned heart
• 33:13
  math, to make those things go away.
• 33:14
  All right.
• 33:14
  So I'm, I'm, I'll kick off.
• 33:15
  No, just kidding.
• 33:16
  All right.
• 33:17
  Go.
• 33:19
  Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high.
• 33:27
  There's a land that I heard of once in a lullaby.
• 33:36
  Okay.
• 33:37
  Rupert Isaacson: That was beautiful.
• 33:38
  Your voice is beautiful.
• 33:39
  But when I'm talking so
• 33:40
  Kansas Carradine: fast, we need to slow down.
• 33:42
  And- And singing brings rhythm.
• 33:44
  Singing h- tones the vagal nerve.
• 33:46
  It does.
• 33:47
  I- Right?
• 33:48
  Rupert Isaacson: I always sing to the kids when they're in front of me in the saddle.
• 33:51
  I sing to my horses.
• 33:54
  I sing all the old Scots-Irish lullabies that my mom used to sing to me.
• 33:58
  Oh ... and it calms me as well as them.
• 34:01
  And of course, when you're body to body, because they're up against my chest with
• 34:04
  their back, so all the resonance- Oh
• 34:06
  from my throat and diaphragm goes in.
• 34:09
  And of course- Yes ... that was me being comforted as a child, and
• 34:13
  then I comforted Rowan that way, and then it's gone into our practice.
• 34:17
  But absolutely.
• 34:17
  Mm.
• 34:17
  But you have every right to fancy yourself for Broadway, and perhaps you still
• 34:21
  should- ... because that was really good.
• 34:24
  And I might ask you for some more.
• 34:26
  Okay.
• 34:26
  Yeah.
• 34:26
  But so, but w- given that- But singing,
• 34:29
  Kansas Carradine: and that brings a really good point.
• 34:30
  So right, so singing was kind of like my medicine of the moment.
• 34:34
  So you would sing to yourself- And I did want to sing.
• 34:36
  I did need to sing.
• 34:37
  I sang all the time.
• 34:38
  So I was in a magical choir in high school.
• 34:40
  Okay.
• 34:41
  I was doing some, some plays, and I wanted to move to another location that- Got it.
• 34:45
  So you were doing some drama at school ... was more focused on...
• 34:47
  Correct.
• 34:49
  Rupert Isaacson: But given that this was a show, the Reata Ranch
• 34:51
  was a show, why didn't they say, "Oh, she's, she's a talented singer.
• 34:54
  Let's sing, incorporate that into the show"?
• 34:57
  That would've been- Well, it just wasn't that era
• 34:58
  ... Kansas Carradine: 50/50.
• 34:58
  Because if I had joined in the '70s, they did have a band that toured
• 35:01
  around, went to O- Equitana Germany, and was, you know, singing, and they
• 35:05
  recorded tracks and things like that.
• 35:07
  But it was a different era.
• 35:08
  So I just wasn't a part of that particular era.
• 35:11
  There wasn't really the resources and the team you know- Okay
• 35:13
  ... focusing on that in particular.
• 35:15
  And and it was so all-consuming, this, you know, we were, we were working on
• 35:20
  acrobatic stunt riding Roman riding, and then spinning lassos, so lasso roping.
• 35:24
  Mm.
• 35:25
  That in and of itself is its own, you know, three full-time jobs.
• 35:29
  Yeah.
• 35:29
  Yeah.
• 35:29
  So I, I, I understand that as well.
• 35:31
  If you want to master anything, you kind of have to have tunnel vision
• 35:35
  and let go of some other things.
• 35:37
  True, but if I'd been the person running that show-
• 35:40
  ... Rupert Isaacson: I did fancy myself as a...
• 35:41
  Right.
• 35:41
  Just go, I, I...
• 35:41
  And you'd been living there, I'd have been like, "Let's have
• 35:43
  Kansas open the show with a song."
• 35:45
  I mean, that's just a no-brainer.
• 35:45
  Right.
• 35:45
  And
• 35:46
  Kansas Carradine: I look back- Yeah ... and I go, "I shoulda been
• 35:48
  singing the Star Spangled Banner."
• 35:49
  We were already dressing- I mean- ... dressing up in red, white, and blue.
• 35:53
  Rupert Isaacson: No-brainer,
• 35:53
  Kansas Carradine: right?
• 35:54
  But I didn't.
• 35:54
  Crowd goes wild.
• 35:55
  But I didn't.
• 35:56
  You know?
• 35:56
  Yeah.
• 35:56
  And, you know, and here's the thing, is instead of creating a story about it that
• 36:00
  was, oh, this was, you know, tragic and this was my, my you know, my, my wound,
• 36:05
  if you will, it was it created a certain level of g- Density, intensity within me-
• 36:12
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm
• 36:13
  um,
• 36:13
  Kansas Carradine: that created a different type of catalyst within my life, right?
• 36:17
  So initially, that energy was stored up inside and suppressed,
• 36:22
  and so fast-forward to when I was discovering, you know, HeartMath
• 36:26
  and seeking to have, to understand the inner world a little bit more.
• 36:30
  The interesting thing is the person that I met wanted to learn more about
• 36:34
  my stories in the same way that you are.
• 36:35
  She goes, "Wait, you were raised on some horse ranch?
• 36:38
  Wait, who were these people?
• 36:40
  Wait, you did what?"
• 36:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 36:41
  Kansas Carradine: You cho- you made this decision when you were 11 years old?
• 36:44
  Look, tell me more about that."
• 36:46
  So she was interviewing me very similar to the way you were, and she
• 36:49
  is a dear, dear friend to this day and a wonderful friend of the heart.
• 36:54
  And so it was really going back to that question, why were you
• 36:57
  seeking out some s- sort of solace?
• 37:00
  Why were you seeking arts- out some sort of relief from- Mm ... really
• 37:04
  the torment of the human experience?
• 37:06
  It's because all of the suppressed emotions that I had of abandonment-
• 37:10
  Mm ... you know, of anger, of being told, "Stop singing, it sounds bad."
• 37:14
  I was told that through, for the seven years whole time.
• 37:17
  Not wrong.
• 37:18
  Yeah, and I, I guess it was sarcastic, but it was still seeded all the time.
• 37:23
  And, you know, I can go, go back and laugh at it right now, but we
• 37:26
  weren't really-- There wasn't a, a two pl- two-way conversation.
• 37:30
  Yeah, 100%.
• 37:30
  So you just kinda take
• 37:31
  it and take it and stuff it.
• 37:32
  Yeah.
• 37:32
  And then by the time I was in my early 20s, you know, why did I leave?
• 37:36
  It was because I was, my spirit was crying for a transition.
• 37:40
  Got it.
• 37:41
  And that, that transition was actually you know, really dramatic
• 37:44
  in the sense that I graduated on a Thursday and moved out on a Sunday
• 37:48
  and- Okay ... didn't wanna look back.
• 37:51
  And, and it took some time.
• 37:52
  I did look back.
• 37:53
  Within a year I was back, you know, performing over in, in Europe at
• 37:56
  Cheval Passion, which is in the South of France, and I actually ran into
• 38:00
  Fred and Magalie there in the early Lorenzo, who was only with four horses,
• 38:06
  Lorenzo the Flying Frenchman, Yes
• 38:07
  doing Roman riding, and he had lines and whatnot, and his horses were not at
• 38:11
  liberty as of yet, and that was in '97.
• 38:13
  So, you know, I was still doing shows but I wasn't living on the ranch and I wasn't
• 38:18
  doing the day-to-day operations, which was very much- So you still- ... geared to a
• 38:20
  younger- ... still hooked up with them-
• 38:21
  population
• 38:22
  ... Rupert Isaacson: thereafter, the, the relationship endured.
• 38:24
  You did go and do performances with them.
• 38:26
  Correct.
• 38:26
  Kansas Carradine: Oh, that's good.
• 38:26
  Correct.
• 38:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 38:27
  Kansas Carradine: And I was still devastated, you know, at my trainer's
• 38:30
  passing, at Tom's passing, because he was the first person to believe in me,
• 38:34
  to to really care and spend some time.
• 38:37
  And there was genuinely-- He never, ever said he loved me until about a week
• 38:41
  before he had a heart attack and died.
• 38:43
  Mm, mm.
• 38:44
  And out of the blue, call-- We were having a conversation.
• 38:46
  We talked infrequently, you know, maybe once a month or a coup- every couple
• 38:49
  months, and we'd had a conversation on the phone and he just said, "I
• 38:52
  want you to know, Kansas, I love you."
• 38:55
  And it was like What?
• 38:56
  Wow, okay.
• 38:58
  And it was very tender, and then within the week he passed
• 39:01
  Rupert Isaacson: It is so strange to me, isn't it?
• 39:05
  I, I, you know, I grew up in a school of tough love as well.
• 39:08
  Kansas Carradine: Mm.
• 39:09
  Rupert Isaacson: But it, I never had any sense as I was growing up in that school
• 39:13
  that that was in any way effective.
• 39:18
  And I had no desire to pass that on to my children.
• 39:21
  Like, it, it, it's funny, you know, I meet people who say, "Well, you
• 39:25
  know, my daddy and my granddaddy were like this," and then I said, "Well,
• 39:28
  then, then why are you like that?
• 39:30
  Because it's just shit," you know?
• 39:32
  And it's like when you were growing up you must have known it was shit
• 39:35
  because tough love hurts and, and it's just often a, it's just often a cover
• 39:41
  smokescreen for meanness and bitterness.
• 39:44
  And- Right ... kids, kids, kids, kids recognize that.
• 39:47
  You know, kids are not stupid.
• 39:48
  So I, you know, when I was growing up with that, it was not so much my
• 39:51
  parents, it was more other people who were in the, my sort of tribal system.
• 39:56
  But with a lot of influence and power, and then of course the school systems
• 39:59
  I went through and all of that.
• 40:01
  But I never for a moment thought, "Yeah, that's a good idea."
• 40:06
  You know, I remember thinking, "Well, no, that's not a good idea, and you're
• 40:10
  intelligent people, it surprises me that you think it's a good idea, but hey,"
• 40:14
  but I'm not going to do that myself.
• 40:16
  You obviously the same thing, but it, you know, I guess what's sparking
• 40:20
  this is that it took him, you know, 1,000 years to say, "I love you,"
• 40:24
  to someone that he loved, which is bananas really, just sort of shows what
• 40:30
  bananas, you know, culture we live in.
• 40:33
  And it's cultural.
• 40:34
  Kansas Carradine: That's the thing to understand.
• 40:35
  Indeed.
• 40:35
  Indeed.
• 40:35
  I don't shame the being.
• 40:36
  You know, it's always- No, no, it's true ... a transitioning.
• 40:38
  And, and it's
• 40:39
  Rupert Isaacson: the same with the people that, that...
• 40:40
  But it, but it just always surprises me, like, you know, I don't know,
• 40:43
  that there, there were many things growing up around me like, I don't
• 40:46
  know, apartheid and 'cause my family's, you know, Southern African is...
• 40:50
  I, I didn't think, well, just because my forebears did it that
• 40:53
  that's a good idea, I'm gonna keep doing it, you know, anymore.
• 40:57
  It's, it's, that's just what surprises me, you know, that people are-
• 41:00
  Yeah ... intelligent and pain is pain, and yes, you can say it's culture,
• 41:03
  but at the same time we, we do have the option to step outside of culture.
• 41:07
  Mm ... and hell, I mean, that's what the whole American experience to a
• 41:10
  large degree was, was people coming over from Europe and breaking with what
• 41:15
  they perceived as the negatives of their culture back home, including poverty and
• 41:19
  oppression and feudal systems and things, and Yeah ... then, you know, setting
• 41:23
  them up on the other side of the pond.
• 41:25
  Well,
• 41:25
  Kansas Carradine: and let's, let's- Yeah ... let's also a- acknowledge
• 41:28
  that there was many You know, very devout very rigid and structured
• 41:32
  individuals and sects that were coming- That- ... to populate America ... is true.
• 41:37
  And they wanted to be able to have their, This is- ... you
• 41:40
  know, kind of cultish- Yes.
• 41:40
  They're little dystopias.
• 41:42
  Yeah ... continuation without the oppression of any other influences.
• 41:45
  You've just made a really
• 41:46
  Rupert Isaacson: good point there, a really good point.
• 41:49
  I think it's something that we should just develop quickly because it is true
• 41:54
  that founding of Anglo-America largely was religious fanaticists, pur- Puritans
• 42:04
  who had actually been in prison in the UK under King James because they were
• 42:08
  just considered, like, too, too extreme.
• 42:12
  And indeed they were because they, they ended up killing King James' son,
• 42:17
  Charles I, in the English Civil War later on, and b- c- putting in a Puritan
• 42:23
  government which banned Christmas among other things, and under Oliver Cromwell,
• 42:27
  and then people put up with that for about 30 years and went, "Fuck this,"
• 42:30
  and got the king back, you know, the king's son back from France and said,
• 42:34
  you know, "Let's n- never do that again."
• 42:36
  But those blokes who had been in the clink jail in England under King James were
• 42:42
  put on a ship called The Mayflower and sent to New Haven, Connecticut, and told,
• 42:48
  "Thrive or die," "but don't do it here."
• 42:51
  And of course, so your, your point about America having a history also
• 42:58
  with fanatical disciplinarian sects-
• 43:05
  Kansas Carradine: Mm
• 43:05
  Rupert Isaacson: was a really good point to make there because
• 43:08
  it does run, I think, through a lot of people's experience.
• 43:13
  And when we're talking about the equine-assisted world, we're dealing with
• 43:17
  a lot of people who are products of that.
• 43:21
  Kansas Carradine: Mm.
• 43:21
  Rupert Isaacson: Whether it's- Of
• 43:22
  Kansas Carradine: that conditioning
• 43:24
  ... Rupert Isaacson: indeed many of whom run ranches, you know?
• 43:26
  Yeah, yeah.
• 43:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 43:26
  Yeah.
• 43:26
  So thank you for making that
• 43:29
  Kansas Carradine: point.
• 43:29
  And this brings me back also to my question with Steven Peters,
• 43:33
  is why does it work, right?
• 43:35
  Why does it create...
• 43:36
  And it works to a point.
• 43:37
  So I was the shut-down horse.
• 43:40
  Right?
• 43:40
  Because that sympathetic arousal, it makes you alert.
• 43:42
  It switches on, okay, I need to get into that state of hypervigilance,
• 43:48
  so your senses are keener.
• 43:50
  You're gonna ... Your reflexes are faster.
• 43:52
  You're not going to second-guess and hesitate, and if you second-guess and
• 43:55
  hesitate when you're on a horse who's running full speed, you know, at liberty
• 44:00
  in you know, a 200-foot length arena, and you're about to dive off of it and hit
• 44:05
  the ground and flip and land somewhere or do a full bridge and, you know, s-
• 44:09
  stand up against the fort of gra- force of gravity, and there's, you know, 5,000
• 44:15
  people, and then on the other side of the arena there, there's announcers
• 44:19
  and they're having bull riding going on and the cowboys are doing all of that.
• 44:22
  There's a lot to going on, and knowing how to focus and zone in
• 44:26
  is not unlike the training that we see in combat, in military.
• 44:31
  Sure.
• 44:31
  It's
• 44:31
  Rupert Isaacson: exactly a combat soldier.
• 44:32
  And so- Good combat soldier ... trick
• 44:34
  Kansas Carradine: riding, it took me- And le- ... a long time to
• 44:35
  realize, so my dad, we talked about the Shaolin connection, right?
• 44:39
  Trick riding is actually a martial art form.
• 44:42
  Indeed.
• 44:42
  People used to ask me, "Did you do any martial arts?"
• 44:44
  I said, "No, I didn't really do that thing.
• 44:45
  My thing was horses."
• 44:47
  But my thing with horses was acrobatic stunt riding coming from
• 44:50
  the Cossacks, and it was all developed for warfare- Indeed ... and to have
• 44:55
  these incredibly agile soldiers.
• 44:56
  So when I, at 11 years old, I was like, "Okay, Dad, I'm joining the cavalry."
• 45:01
  That's basically what I was off to go do.
• 45:04
  And there was a methodical aspect to it.
• 45:06
  Yeah.
• 45:06
  You know, there's, there's repetitive qualities.
• 45:08
  It was, if anyone's seen the film The Karate Kid, wax on, wax off.
• 45:14
  We did far more raking of poo and leaves than we did of actual riding.
• 45:20
  Yeah.
• 45:21
  Yeah.
• 45:22
  And that's true with any barn, I suppose, because there's
• 45:25
  more chores than actual riding.
• 45:26
  But- Indeed ... it seemed like there was weeks on end sometimes
• 45:28
  when we were doing chores.
• 45:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, and, and the, but the ritualization of
• 45:31
  them for skill set training, yes, as is- Yes ... martial arts.
• 45:35
  The...
• 45:35
  You're absolutely right.
• 45:36
  You, you were being trained to be an elite soldier.
• 45:39
  So because there's cavalry who were not so elite and cavalry that were very elite.
• 45:45
  I'd, I'd say that you...
• 45:46
  And, and you, you're absolutely right about that steppe tradition,
• 45:50
  the, the Eurasian Steppe.
• 45:51
  The Cossacks actually got it from people further east, and it's still practiced.
• 45:57
  The Cossack culture is largely broken down, but it's still practiced very
• 46:01
  much in Turkmenistan and Kyrgyzstan and places like this, and it's really
• 46:04
  worth looking at the Nomad Games.
• 46:07
  Have you ever checked those out?
• 46:09
  The Nomad Games Oh, I've
• 46:10
  Kansas Carradine: just seen little clips of it, but there,
• 46:12
  yeah, there's quite a lot
• 46:13
  Rupert Isaacson: absolutely bonkers, right?
• 46:15
  So it's all of the, all of the countries that make up the Eurasian
• 46:18
  Steppe from Eastern Turkey right across to, I guess, Mongolia and China,
• 46:23
  and all the countries in between, all the ones that end with istan.
• 46:26
  And they not only do all of that acrobatic trick riding that you're
• 46:30
  talking about w- from the military tradition, but their military
• 46:34
  tradition, but also things like kokparu.
• 46:35
  Have you ever looked at kokparu?
• 46:37
  Rugby on horseback.
• 46:38
  I don't.
• 46:38
  Where they call it buzkashi in in Afghanistan, where you've got
• 46:41
  a carcass of a- Is it similar
• 46:42
  Kansas Carradine: to horseball?
• 46:44
  Rupert Isaacson: It's, well- Except
• 46:45
  Kansas Carradine: with a carcass.
• 46:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, and with sort of death being you know, acceptable.
• 46:51
  Kansas Carradine: Oh, the ultimate.
• 46:52
  Oh.
• 46:52
  So it, it's,
• 46:52
  Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's like those early forms of football like
• 46:55
  Florentine football or the Shrovetide football in Ashbourne in England.
• 46:59
  Oh.
• 46:59
  There's medieval forms of, like, no holds barred, any injury is
• 47:03
  allowed, you know, blah, blah, blah.
• 47:05
  And so kokparu is a rugby on horseback where they...
• 47:08
  You've got to pick up this 70 pound goat carcass and try to get it into a
• 47:13
  large concrete ring, which can also, your horse can, like, fall into.
• 47:18
  And you do this at full gallop, and you can, like, if some- the
• 47:21
  person's on the ground, you can just run your horse into them.
• 47:24
  And of course, this of course was the training of the steppe
• 47:27
  horsemen that conquered the world.
• 47:30
  Oh ... no surprise that they did.
• 47:31
  But yeah, you, you were going through a form of that.
• 47:36
  So I could absolutely see how it formed you into an absolute machine of perfection
• 47:47
  and performance and bravery and technique, and at the same time you'd have had
• 47:52
  to suppress a whole bunch of sides of yourself to take it to that level.
• 47:59
  Right.
• 47:59
  Because there was also not so much of an element of choice.
• 48:03
  But there must have also been a part of you that adored it, that loved
• 48:05
  it, or you wouldn't have been able to pursue it to that degree, no?
• 48:10
  If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering
• 48:13
  a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
• 48:17
  taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
• 48:21
  Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
• 48:27
  Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
• 48:34
  developed in conjunction with Dr.
• 48:36
  Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
• 48:40
  We work in the saddle with younger children.
• 48:43
  Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
• 48:49
  It works incredibly well.
• 48:50
  It's now in about 40 countries.
• 48:53
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• 48:54
  If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
• 48:58
  method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
• 49:02
  applied in schools, in homes.
• 49:04
  If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
• 49:09
  at home that will create neuroplasticity.
• 49:12
  when they're not with you.
• 49:13
  Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
• 49:17
  If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
• 49:20
  really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
• 49:24
  in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
• 49:29
  So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
• 49:32
  also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
• 49:36
  And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
• 49:41
  am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
• 49:44
  need, as well as Serving my clients.
• 49:47
  Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
• 49:52
  absolutely gives you this.
• 49:54
  Kansas Carradine: Right.
• 49:54
  I think- So ambiguous ... there's a certain amount of versatility
• 49:57
  that I always appreciate.
• 50:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 50:00
  And you know, I was actually born in the Year of the Horse.
• 50:02
  You know, a lot of people are talking about how this year's the Fire
• 50:04
  Horse, and that's very meaningful.
• 50:05
  Are you a fire horse
• 50:06
  too?
• 50:06
  I'm actually an earth horse.
• 50:08
  I'm a fire horse.
• 50:08
  Not surprising.
• 50:09
  Okay.
• 50:09
  Oh, okay.
• 50:10
  Oh, you're a horse as well.
• 50:11
  Great.
• 50:11
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 50:12
  Yeah.
• 50:12
  So we tend to be a little bit wild and have these big bursts of energies
• 50:16
  and go off in different directions and, you know, it's very famous- I
• 50:19
  think I know what you mean ... for not wanting to stay within the fences.
• 50:22
  Like the breaking or jumping over the fences.
• 50:24
  Like, what fence?
• 50:25
  Fences are just- And so I, I, I like versatility.
• 50:28
  Yeah.
• 50:28
  I like keeping things in dynamic.
• 50:30
  Mm.
• 50:31
  And so I was kind of like, all right, I did that from 11 to 14,
• 50:34
  15, I wanna do something else too.
• 50:36
  And it was the, the, the mandate to stay with just this one, art form.
• 50:42
  I'll put it that way.
• 50:43
  It was really- Mm ... I wanted to explore other forms of art.
• 50:46
  Mm.
• 50:46
  Because the art of horsemanship is absolutely- Mm ... in my
• 50:49
  opinion, on the level and on par with, you know, fine painting.
• 50:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 50:53
  It takes as long to develop fine art skills of- Yeah ... of painting as
• 50:57
  it does, or sculpting, as it does to understand the art of horsemanship.
• 51:00
  Absolutely.
• 51:01
  You know,
• 51:01
  you know that very well with y- bringing a horse through through the levels.
• 51:04
  It takes- Yes.
• 51:05
  Well- ... a lot of
• 51:05
  Rupert Isaacson: time ... and as, as Nuno, the great Nuno Oliveira said,
• 51:08
  I've got him sitting right here.
• 51:09
  Here he is.
• 51:10
  There's Nuno.
• 51:10
  Okay.
• 51:11
  Kansas Carradine: Yep.
• 51:11
  Rupert Isaacson: He, he said where it differs is that when you write a
• 51:16
  book or y- make a picture, it endures.
• 51:20
  Kansas Carradine: Mm.
• 51:20
  Rupert Isaacson: When you create a horse, with the passing of that
• 51:24
  horse, the canvas is wiped clean-
• 51:27
  Kansas Carradine: Yeah
• 51:27
  and
• 51:28
  Rupert Isaacson: you must begin again.
• 51:30
  Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
• 51:30
  Rupert Isaacson: And there's, I suppose you could say the same about, say,
• 51:32
  a human dancer or so or something.
• 51:35
  Mm.
• 51:35
  But even that dan- you know, so it, there's some, there's
• 51:39
  a poignancy to it, I think.
• 51:40
  Yeah.
• 51:41
  The, the-
• 51:41
  Yeah
• 51:42
  ... equestrian art.
• 51:43
  You of course are both a dancer and an equestrian artist because it's
• 51:47
  not just a martial art, it's also, I would argue, that really good
• 51:50
  trick riding is a form of dance.
• 51:52
  And dance with the horse, not just the human by themselves with
• 51:55
  their own body and nervous system.
• 51:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 51:57
  So, okay.
• 51:58
  So you, you, you're coming out of this, you're, you're exploring, you want to
• 52:01
  go to Broadway, you sing beautifully, you want to do these other things.
• 52:04
  You're from an acting family anyway, so why wouldn't you?
• 52:08
  And then you discover HeartMath.
• 52:09
  So you, you, you, you come out of this highly disciplined, highly
• 52:14
  self-actualized upbringing, but with its other issues, and you're looking to go
• 52:22
  into other forms of the arts, also with horses, and then you meet somebody who
• 52:26
  tells you about this HeartMath thing.
• 52:28
  So how did that happen, and why did you think...
• 52:31
  'Cause you must have looked at other forms of you know, mental health,
• 52:35
  personal development-y things.
• 52:37
  Yeah.
• 52:37
  Why did you think, yeah, that one?
• 52:39
  That one.
• 52:39
  Yeah, I'm gonna go with that one.
• 52:40
  Kansas Carradine: Well, well, I think there's still a, a stigma around
• 52:44
  mental health for me at that time.
• 52:46
  Mm.
• 52:47
  And so I didn't know ... We didn't even call it, like, "I'm looking to take
• 52:50
  care of my mental health," at that time.
• 52:52
  Sure.
• 52:52
  I just knew that I was feeling suffering of the human experience,
• 52:55
  and I wanted to ease that suffering.
• 52:57
  Yeah.
• 52:57
  And I was not looking through traditional means because I'm
• 53:00
  untraditional, and so I wasn't seeking out a a psychotherapist- Mm-hmm
• 53:04
  or a psychiatrist.
• 53:05
  I was seeking out you know, spending times with First Nations people.
• 53:09
  And so I spent time with Long Dance and was With Long Dance?
• 53:13
  ... with women and grandmothers.
• 53:14
  What's Long Dance?
• 53:15
  Some, some ... It was a ceremony of women that took place in the Central
• 53:19
  Coast, or I guess it's southern coastal region, so it was more Chumash land.
• 53:25
  Yeah.
• 53:25
  But there was many people who came from different regions,
• 53:27
  Rupert Isaacson: The Chumash Indians, for those who don't know, by the
• 53:29
  way- ... those more, more prominent ... are the ones who lived at the, the
• 53:31
  coast, the coastal strip of- Southern,
• 53:33
  Kansas Carradine: southern coast, yeah ... Southern California,
• 53:34
  yeah ... between Los Angeles and really extending up past Santa Barbara.
• 53:38
  It was a quite a long a large region.
• 53:40
  Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, you sort this out.
• 53:43
  Kansas Carradine: Mm.
• 53:44
  And I was just very connected to you know, indigenous wisdom we could say.
• 53:48
  Mm.
• 53:48
  And so Native American spirituality.
• 53:51
  And then I was also, you know, starting to meditate.
• 53:54
  I ... It was interesting as I was moving to Los Angeles to try to
• 53:58
  become an actor because it was always my dad's dream that we would
• 54:01
  Yeah, I would continue this h- legacy, right?
• 54:03
  Right.
• 54:04
  So I was taking acting classes in Hollywood and somebody said, "Hey, I
• 54:07
  could get you a job at this really posh sushi restaurant on Sunset Boulevard.
• 54:11
  You know, you make great money, you make great connections."
• 54:13
  And I said, "Okay."
• 54:15
  And I showed up, and it was right after September 11th in the United States,
• 54:19
  and there was a line about a quarter of a mile long with professionals with
• 54:22
  attaché cases and people in suits.
• 54:25
  And these people had families.
• 54:26
  They had children to feed.
• 54:27
  They had mortgages.
• 54:29
  And I looked, took one look at that line and I was like, "Okay,
• 54:31
  I don't need this job that bad."
• 54:33
  And so I went back to my little studio apartment that I had at the time near
• 54:37
  the beach, and I started ... I found an ad in the spiritual magazine, you know,
• 54:42
  where you get crystals and learn about different healers and things like that,
• 54:46
  and someone said they needed an assistant.
• 54:48
  So I applied and I went to work with a woman who channeled you know, off-planet
• 54:52
  energies, and she worked with crystal healing, and she did something called
• 54:57
  theta healing which was all about DNA strand activation, and that was,
• 55:01
  that was where I was gonna work.
• 55:03
  And so I was already in that vein.
• 55:06
  And just seeing that I was ... that we're in this human experience
• 55:09
  and there is suffering a part of it, so how to ease that suffering.
• 55:14
  Rupert Isaacson: But okay, the woo-woo that like the, the oat woo-woo that you
• 55:18
  just described there sort of, you know, California channeling people and so on,
• 55:23
  so much of that is BS and there i- there is also parts of it that are anything
• 55:28
  but BS, and all points in between.
• 55:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 55:31
  Easy to knock it.
• 55:32
  A lot of it deserves knocking, and yet there is a skein of truth
• 55:36
  running through the whole thing.
• 55:37
  Mm.
• 55:37
  And there is the occasional person out there who actually is a channeler
• 55:40
  and there are lots of people who aren't and say that they are-
• 55:43
  Mm-hmm ... and take people's money.
• 55:44
  Similarly with animal communication, you know, there's some people
• 55:47
  out there- Absolutely ... who are absolutely the real deal.
• 55:49
  I've met them, you've met them.
• 55:51
  And other people out there who are not.
• 55:54
  Okay.
• 55:54
  Yeah.
• 55:55
  What made you think that this- And I have, I think
• 55:56
  Kansas Carradine: as, as horse people, I have a sniffer, right?
• 55:59
  Yeah.
• 55:59
  And perhaps just growing up in an environment where you did have
• 56:02
  to be on alert all the time, we start to feel into the unseen,
• 56:06
  to sense- True ... authenticity.
• 56:08
  And so I have a pretty, Even though I'm highly gullible, and don't use that to
• 56:12
  your advantage at all, I'm very, very gullible because I want to listen to
• 56:16
  people and believe them, but I also listen to my heart and I have this sense- Yeah
• 56:21
  of whether people are being authentic.
• 56:22
  I think you're only gullible in certain
• 56:23
  Rupert Isaacson: moments probably.
• 56:24
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 56:25
  And it probably doesn't last very long.
• 56:27
  Yeah.
• 56:28
  But, but d- are you saying then that you had a, a decent BS meter built in?
• 56:32
  Correct.
• 56:32
  Yeah.
• 56:33
  Right.
• 56:33
  Kansas Carradine: Correct.
• 56:33
  Yeah.
• 56:33
  Okay.
• 56:34
  But so this woman- And I just followed this intu- intuition.
• 56:36
  You know, a lot of times we don't really- Indeed ... think about it and, and on
• 56:40
  a cogniti- it's just, you know, it's like me moving in with a horse ranch.
• 56:43
  I just was like, "Oh, this is part of my destiny."
• 56:45
  Like, yes, that's chapter 17 of the Kansas experience.
• 56:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
• 56:50
  But when someone says, you know, "I need help.
• 56:53
  I'm a channeler."
• 56:54
  A part of one might say, as a young broke, you know, person,
• 56:57
  "Okay, that's a job, I'll take it.
• 56:58
  That's great.
• 56:59
  It sound- sounds kind of interesting."
• 57:00
  Well, so here you go.
• 57:00
  Shh.
• 57:01
  But did you actually think she was d- do you think she was actually the real deal?
• 57:04
  Just out of interest.
• 57:05
  Kansas Carradine: Well, the, the ad was very straightforward.
• 57:08
  It was just, you know, I think it was listed as something like Healer
• 57:11
  Intuitive- Right ... is looking for an assistant, you know, admin assistant for
• 57:15
  this much and this many hours a week.
• 57:17
  So it was very, very straightforward.
• 57:18
  Sure.
• 57:18
  And
• 57:18
  no matter, even if you're you know, in those other realms, you also, at the end
• 57:23
  of the day, you know, you need to pay your rent, you need to get those things- Indeed
• 57:26
  taken care of.
• 57:26
  And so what I really appreciated about her is that she was, she had actually been a,
• 57:32
  a journalist for The Wall Street Journal.
• 57:35
  Okay.
• 57:35
  Interesting.
• 57:36
  So, and she in the '70s, and so '70s and I believe early '80s, and then she
• 57:41
  moved out of that and started channeling, and then took that as a full-time,
• 57:44
  full-time job and full-time position.
• 57:45
  Why did she start channeling and was she the real deal?
• 57:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
• 57:49
  Yes She, she was grounded.
• 57:50
  And she had a
• 57:50
  Kansas Carradine: balance of being grounded in actual 3D we could say.
• 57:55
  Mm.
• 57:56
  A very strong intellect, and she had also studied extensively and had a very, we
• 58:02
  could say, coherent and clear connection to source, whatever you wanna call it.
• 58:09
  And in that sense, it was always about helping people awaken to the truth that
• 58:15
  we are all connected, that we are all embodiments of love, and that there
• 58:19
  actually is much more beneath the surface than this 1% of our DNA that is totally
• 58:24
  different that we focus on all the time with these- 100%, but not everyone
• 58:27
  Rupert Isaacson: who believes that channels
• 58:28
  different channels.
• 58:29
  Correct.
• 58:29
  Yeah.
• 58:29
  So, who was she channeling, and why, why did she go the channeling route?
• 58:33
  I just...
• 58:34
  Kansas Carradine: You know, she didn't s- focus on a particular,
• 58:37
  on a particular entity.
• 58:38
  Okay.
• 58:38
  You know, I think at that time there was, And I think everybody channels.
• 58:43
  You channel at some points when you're like, "Oh, where did that come from?"
• 58:46
  Right?
• 58:46
  We get connected to source- Indeed, but I don't- ... and it
• 58:47
  comes through ... I don't put
• 58:48
  Rupert Isaacson: out a business card saying, "Rupert Isaacson, channeler."
• 58:49
  Certainly.
• 58:51
  And as you know, at that time in, in H- in Hollywood, and even now
• 58:54
  actually there are people who, like, "I channel," as you say, "this entity."
• 58:59
  There's a, there's, there's a bloke who's big at the moment, Bashar,
• 59:02
  you know, but there've been others.
• 59:03
  Ramtha was w- a big one.
• 59:05
  It's a...
• 59:06
  And I, I keep an open mind on this.
• 59:08
  I, Mm-hmm ... and at the same time, I have a chuckle.
• 59:10
  It's both.
• 59:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 59:12
  I think ambiguity- Absolutely ... and particularly those of us who are working
• 59:15
  in the equine-assisted field, the whole point is you've got to sit with ambiguity.
• 59:21
  Things can be- Mm
• 59:22
  both, like, BS and true at the same time, and if one becomes comfortable
• 59:29
  with that, then one can operate on this multidimensional level.
• 59:33
  And if one can't- Mm ... then one is always a bit limited.
• 59:36
  But it doesn't mean that s- healthy skepticism is just a good thing.
• 59:40
  Mm.
• 59:40
  Cynicism is not a good thing.
• 59:42
  Cynicism is the coward's way out because it says- Mm
• 59:45
  "Anything I don't understand, I will dismiss," because it,
• 59:48
  Kansas Carradine: It sh- 'Cause it's judgment, it's closed-minded,
• 59:49
  and it doesn't allow for anything else- Exactly ... to penetrate.
• 59:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
• 59:52
  Right.
• 59:52
  And I just wanna stay where I am, and I wanna keep you where you are.
• 59:55
  But healthy skepticism is like, you know- Mm-hmm ... I'm allowed to
• 59:59
  make a bit of a joke about it, and at the same time hold space that
• 1:00:02
  it might be true at the same time.
• 1:00:04
  Mm.
• 1:00:05
  Because, you know, whe- whenever I've been around really good shamans in the
• 1:00:08
  indigenous world, and I'm sure you've had this experience too- Mm ... they don't
• 1:00:12
  take themselves seriously, like, at all.
• 1:00:14
  They are...
• 1:00:15
  The, the, the, the, the healer that I was the closest to, Besa,
• 1:00:21
  I mean, total, total joker all the time.
• 1:00:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:25
  About himself- Mm ... not just about, you know, other people, and didn't remotely
• 1:00:32
  take himself seriously, but could pull cancer out of people's bodies and all
• 1:00:35
  sorts of other things that, you know...
• 1:00:37
  He, but he came from a tradition where that was- The, if not, I wouldn't
• 1:00:43
  say it was normal, but it was that sort of n- non-normalness was in
• 1:00:48
  the culture that type of healing.
• 1:00:51
  Mm-hmm ... so I'm just c- curious about quickly your experience with this
• 1:00:55
  lady, because you must have witnessed her doing her thing, and that must
• 1:01:01
  have been part of your education.
• 1:01:03
  So just, and then informed the later work that you did to some degree.
• 1:01:07
  Just-
• 1:01:08
  Kansas Carradine: Mm ... t-
• 1:01:09
  Rupert Isaacson: talk to us just a little for a few minutes about it, because it
• 1:01:12
  these are the natural questions that people listening will have, you know?
• 1:01:15
  Kansas Carradine: Mm.
• 1:01:16
  Mm-hmm
• 1:01:16
  ... Rupert Isaacson: you know, you're an intelligent woman in Kansas.
• 1:01:18
  Why wasn't it BS, blah, blah?
• 1:01:19
  Just, just talk to us about that.
• 1:01:20
  Yeah.
• 1:01:21
  Kansas Carradine: Right.
• 1:01:21
  Well, I, I, I've just following that nonlinear aspect, and yet stepping in
• 1:01:26
  to work with her was very simple of like, okay, these are some files that
• 1:01:31
  I need documented into my computer.
• 1:01:33
  So I was just doing- I'm not talking about that side of things ... basic admin
• 1:01:34
  work.
• 1:01:35
  I, no, I understand, but I'm telling you, this is the relationship
• 1:01:37
  that we had on a day-to-day.
• 1:01:38
  Okay.
• 1:01:39
  You know, here's some tasks.
• 1:01:40
  I'm gonna be doing sessions with my clients.
• 1:01:42
  Here's some crystals.
• 1:01:44
  When I finish working with these crystals, I'm gonna energize them,
• 1:01:47
  and you're gonna package them and take them to the post to each individual.
• 1:01:50
  And so I got to learn.
• 1:01:51
  And then we, we went to the imports where these crystals would come from,
• 1:01:55
  you know, Brazil and China and the, all the stands that you spoke about, all
• 1:02:01
  of these rare, amazing gems that are creating this kaleidoscope beneath us.
• 1:02:06
  I got to see when we were opening them out of these 55-gallon containers
• 1:02:10
  and, you know, they're all just these incredible treasures, and she
• 1:02:13
  revered each one of these as beings.
• 1:02:17
  And we would get to walk throughout the aisles of these massive warehouse
• 1:02:20
  in Southern California, and then she would kind of be touching in and
• 1:02:24
  communicating with them, and, and then she would collect what we would take
• 1:02:28
  back that would eventually be part of the inventory to give to her her clients.
• 1:02:33
  And so my role was very much of the, the assistant in the,
• 1:02:37
  all of the tangible sense.
• 1:02:38
  Kind of like, you know, if Merlin had someone who was a scribe or something.
• 1:02:44
  That's really what I was doing.
• 1:02:44
  Yeah, the sort of lab
• 1:02:45
  Rupert Isaacson: assistant.
• 1:02:45
  Kansas Carradine: And so you learn ... Yeah, exactly.
• 1:02:48
  And, But if you were the lab assistant to Merlin- And then she did conduct these-
• 1:02:50
  Rupert Isaacson: then you ought to see him materialize a dragon or two, right?
• 1:02:54
  So yeah.
• 1:02:55
  Kansas Carradine: No.
• 1:02:55
  So we didn't have so many of those kind of shamanic experiences, and th- because
• 1:02:59
  I was also not interested as much in phenomena, I wou- I guess I would say.
• 1:03:04
  Like, people are like, "All right.
• 1:03:05
  Do something to prove yourself."
• 1:03:06
  Like, that- Mm
• 1:03:06
  that really was never something that drew me.
• 1:03:09
  And I've certainly been around a lot of other shamans who have produced
• 1:03:13
  lots of sort of phenomena some of whom are now engaged in legal problems.
• 1:03:19
  So it's not- Interesting ... to say that somebody who's capable of
• 1:03:22
  creating phenomena is a pure being.
• 1:03:27
  100% Right?
• 1:03:27
  And that's a really important distinction.
• 1:03:29
  100%.
• 1:03:29
  And so, I really did feel that she had a very grounded and, and clean heart,
• 1:03:34
  and the way that she spoke and how she operated from felt very much in integrity.
• 1:03:38
  She was acting in integrity.
• 1:03:40
  But
• 1:03:40
  Rupert Isaacson: did you see her channeling, I guess- And then- ... is
• 1:03:41
  the point I'm trying to make?
• 1:03:42
  Did you ask?
• 1:03:43
  Kansas Carradine: Did you see that?
• 1:03:44
  I did.
• 1:03:44
  So when she would have workshops- Mm ... and I was helping checking
• 1:03:47
  people in, and it was actually the first time that I really ever meditated.
• 1:03:50
  I was, like, 22 at the time.
• 1:03:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:03:52
  Kansas Carradine: And then she would go into, you know, a quiet state with eyes
• 1:03:56
  closed, and she would share a message.
• 1:03:59
  It wasn't from one particular being, and it was really an off-planet
• 1:04:03
  energy that was saying, "You have all of the resources that you need.
• 1:04:10
  You are surrounded in divine love.
• 1:04:12
  You, as beings, are extremely more powerful than you could
• 1:04:16
  ever imagine and that you see.
• 1:04:18
  And we're here to help and guide some meditation processes to
• 1:04:23
  help you connect to y- to heart, to the feeling of oneness."
• 1:04:28
  And so it was really the first time that I was aware of
• 1:04:31
  vibrational modalities, right?
• 1:04:34
  I started to feel, because when you suppress a lot and when you
• 1:04:38
  haven't had nurturing love you often have numbness as a coping
• 1:04:42
  strategy and as a byproduct of that.
• 1:04:44
  And so I was very numb.
• 1:04:45
  I didn't have any feelings really at all like not pain as well as, you know,
• 1:04:50
  extreme feelings of, like, emotion.
• 1:04:52
  Then they start to come back online because that's the intelligence of, you
• 1:04:55
  know, the healing or evolutionary process.
• 1:04:58
  But I-- when someone would ask, like, "Do you feel your heart?
• 1:05:00
  Do you feel this warmth?"
• 1:05:01
  And I couldn't turn inward.
• 1:05:02
  It was an uncomfortable place.
• 1:05:04
  And then later, it actually ended up being this overwhelming emotion,
• 1:05:08
  which is a way that unprocessed, undigested experiences can sometimes
• 1:05:12
  get stored up in our body, and so, you know, emotion would come with it.
• 1:05:17
  So what it was a beautiful gift for everyone present, and there
• 1:05:20
  were small groups, like maybe, you know, 15 people, right?
• 1:05:23
  This was not somebody who was going in front of, like, 30 people at the time.
• 1:05:27
  That was a modality that I think certain people were interested in at the time,
• 1:05:31
  channeling as a modality to connect with source and to be of service.
• 1:05:35
  And I, yes, I think she was authen-authentically of service, and the
• 1:05:39
  people who were there were learning how to connect with the source in themselves,
• 1:05:42
  and that was always the message.
• 1:05:44
  Right.
• 1:05:45
  And the source in ourselves, I would say now, is we have the heart that
• 1:05:50
  is our primary connection to our souls, and knowing how to access that
• 1:05:55
  feeling state is a way to start to connect with our our larger self.
• 1:06:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:06:02
  As above, so below.
• 1:06:04
  Yeah ... the, okay, so y- you're, you're there in this world and this is the
• 1:06:11
  point at which you discover HeartMath.
• 1:06:14
  Right?
• 1:06:15
  Kansas Carradine: Yeah, yeah Around that time, yeah
• 1:06:17
  ... Rupert Isaacson: so that's an interesting jump too, because HeartMath, one of
• 1:06:21
  the things I love about it is it sits, it sits squarely on that continental
• 1:06:27
  divide between the woo and the non-woo, the rational, the irrational, which
• 1:06:33
  of course any good science does.
• 1:06:34
  My own uncle was an eminent pathologist at at University College
• 1:06:40
  Hospital in London, and he...
• 1:06:43
  When we showed the Horse Boy movie to the family I thought he was
• 1:06:49
  gonna take a big old poo all over me, because he's that sort of dude.
• 1:06:52
  And at the end of the showing, I went up to him with an imaginary
• 1:06:57
  umbrella and I said, "Surf's up.
• 1:06:59
  Take a shit."
• 1:07:00
  "Do your worst."
• 1:07:01
  Right?
• 1:07:01
  "Go on."
• 1:07:02
  Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
• 1:07:02
  Rupert Isaacson: And he went, "Actually, Rupert this time
• 1:07:04
  I'm not gonna take a shit."
• 1:07:06
  And I said, "That's unlike you Uncle Peter.
• 1:07:09
  You know, this is a golden opportunity.
• 1:07:10
  How could you pass it up?"
• 1:07:12
  And he said, "Well, a couple of things.
• 1:07:13
  One is," remember this is almost 20 years ago you're, you've produced
• 1:07:16
  a piece of work saying that autism actually might not, not be the end
• 1:07:20
  of the world, and actually might have some real gifts attached.
• 1:07:22
  That's quite interesting."
• 1:07:24
  And he said, "The other thing is you've put your finger on, you've
• 1:07:28
  drawn attention to a really interesting aspect of the placebo effect."
• 1:07:31
  And I said, "What do you mean?"
• 1:07:33
  And he said, "Well, Rupert, you probably don't know this,
• 1:07:36
  but most people misunderstand what the placebo effect means."
• 1:07:40
  I said, "Well, what does it mean?"
• 1:07:41
  He said, "Well, most people dismiss something and say, 'Oh,
• 1:07:45
  that's just the placebo effect.'"
• 1:07:47
  He said, "What they don't know is that the entire system of modern
• 1:07:50
  medicine, allopathic medicine, rests upon the placebo effect,
• 1:07:55
  and we don't know how it works.
• 1:07:58
  It's completely irrational to us at this stage of our scientific discovery."
• 1:08:03
  I said, "Go on, please explain."
• 1:08:04
  He said, "Well, Rupert, easy.
• 1:08:05
  When you go to see a doctor, you get a prescription.
• 1:08:08
  If you get a prescription, you get a drug.
• 1:08:11
  That drug has gone through a drug trial before it's allowed on the market.
• 1:08:14
  In that drug trial, there are different populations that it is
• 1:08:18
  tested on, and there are also placebos that other control groups are given
• 1:08:23
  to, to see if the drug makes more people better than the placebo."
• 1:08:30
  And he said, "In the early stages of any trial, the placebo always makes
• 1:08:34
  more people better, and they don't just think they get better 'cause they're
• 1:08:38
  stupid and then die later of the thing.
• 1:08:41
  They- actually get better.
• 1:08:44
  We don't know why.
• 1:08:47
  However, it's not allowed for that drug to go on the market.
• 1:08:51
  It often has to go through several iterations until it makes more
• 1:08:54
  people better than the placebo.
• 1:08:56
  So he said the placebo effect is something very real and very good, and it's possible
• 1:08:59
  that these shamans that you're looking at, Rupert, have some ancient technology
• 1:09:02
  of some sort of activation of that that we don't yet understand scientifically,
• 1:09:07
  but hopefully at some point we will.
• 1:09:10
  That was the absolute bridge between a hard scientist, and
• 1:09:14
  he's a hard scientist, and a
• 1:09:17
  but also good scientists saying, "We don't understand everything yet."
• 1:09:21
  Mm.
• 1:09:22
  So one thing ... That's what I love about HeartMath.
• 1:09:24
  So y- and so you bridged, you also made that bridge.
• 1:09:27
  You were going from something that was intuitive, irrational, and then
• 1:09:33
  you're then making a leap over to something that allows for that,
• 1:09:39
  but also allows for the rational.
• 1:09:42
  So tell us about your early experiences with HeartMath.
• 1:09:47
  Kansas Carradine: Oh, well, as I mentioned it was really for me, and it
• 1:09:50
  was just very casual and private that I was learning about these techniques.
• 1:09:54
  And one of the first ways that you share the teachings about
• 1:09:58
  it is just to understand kind of the car that we're driving.
• 1:10:02
  And now so many people are learning about the nervous system.
• 1:10:05
  I mean, you can even talk to little kids in school, and they have,
• 1:10:08
  you know, sensory rooms, and they have places where they're learning
• 1:10:10
  to breathe, and it's just, it's amazing where, how far we've come.
• 1:10:13
  You know, but this was like 25 years ago.
• 1:10:15
  It was not, not as much you know, so common.
• 1:10:18
  But I was in Los Angeles, so it's a little bit more common in terms of the woo-woo
• 1:10:23
  that is very, ... And I always like to say m- it's more esoteric or the metaphysical
• 1:10:27
  is really what we call it, or new age.
• 1:10:28
  Yeah, but woo-woo- Right?
• 1:10:29
  ... is just more
• 1:10:29
  Rupert Isaacson: fun to say.
• 1:10:30
  Yeah.
• 1:10:30
  Kansas Carradine: Right.
• 1:10:31
  Woo-woo.
• 1:10:32
  But the first step to it was really just understanding how the nervous system
• 1:10:35
  works- Mm ... and understanding why we are having some emotional reactions, why other
• 1:10:40
  people are behaving in the way they are.
• 1:10:42
  Because I'm just gonna blame you because you're just a hard ass
• 1:10:45
  and you've, you're this and that.
• 1:10:46
  Well, no, actually, there's a very specific conditioning that has
• 1:10:51
  created that unique outcome or that unique terrain in the individual.
• 1:10:55
  So first learning how our systems work, how our amygdala in our brain,
• 1:11:01
  the limbic system, can kind of hijack our higher-minded cortical thinking.
• 1:11:05
  We had talked about the reptilian brain, but not really to the degree.
• 1:11:09
  It helped me have more compassion for the people around me, such as, you
• 1:11:13
  know, the very brilliant and loving but hard tough love coach that I had
• 1:11:18
  and anyone else, and myself Right?
• 1:11:22
  So the first step was just the understanding, and with
• 1:11:25
  understanding and knowledge, we can have some sort of acceptance.
• 1:11:29
  We can have some, you know, mutual harmony.
• 1:11:32
  We begin to soften really, and then be able to take the next
• 1:11:36
  step of, you know, kind of life.
• 1:11:38
  We let something in because we're not bracing up against everything.
• 1:11:41
  Or like you had mentioned, just closing ourself du- off to new
• 1:11:46
  perspectives by fixed judgments, right?
• 1:11:49
  So I received the information about the HeartMath system taught
• 1:11:53
  in a very simplistic way, and it's als- almost like kindergarten.
• 1:11:56
  And I find that, you know, some people might not be attracted
• 1:11:58
  to, to pedantic methodology because it just seems too simple.
• 1:12:04
  Like really, like come on, like that's just, it's just too fluffy.
• 1:12:08
  But the truth of the matter is I started being interested in their evidence
• 1:12:13
  because they had spent so many years really grounding the, the, the, the
• 1:12:18
  science and the data to show like, "Look, this actually has an effect.
• 1:12:23
  It reduces blood pressure.
• 1:12:25
  Look, this actually helps with anxiety.
• 1:12:26
  Look, it actually will help sleep."
• 1:12:28
  And this is how it's working.
• 1:12:30
  We're measuring HRV patterns, and so HRV is heart rate variability that a lot of
• 1:12:36
  people have been paying attention to now.
• 1:12:38
  But they could-- developed a medical grade advice device that not only
• 1:12:42
  measures your H- HRV, but then takes it even a step further to measure really
• 1:12:46
  your your power spectrum, which is really like the force of your heart.
• 1:12:50
  So I might be able to get coherent, but the force of my heart will
• 1:12:53
  determine on the clarity of my focus.
• 1:12:56
  A good example is, you know, my coach who introduced me when her
• 1:12:59
  father passed away, she could get coherent, she could move into a state
• 1:13:03
  of optimization and that flow state.
• 1:13:06
  But the strength and the power and the force of her heart as
• 1:13:08
  she was going through drie- grief was greatly diminished.
• 1:13:13
  Does that make sense?
• 1:13:14
  It does.
• 1:13:14
  It does.
• 1:13:14
  And that's measurable.
• 1:13:15
  Rupert Isaacson: And I, I wanted you, I wanted you to, to clarify what
• 1:13:17
  you meant by the force of the heart.
• 1:13:18
  So just keep going.
• 1:13:20
  if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
• 1:13:26
  you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
• 1:13:31
  of dressage training.
• 1:13:33
  If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
• 1:13:41
  exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
• 1:13:48
  of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
• 1:13:54
  well being of the horse and the rider.
• 1:13:57
  Intrigued?
• 1:13:58
  Like to know more?
• 1:14:00
  Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
• 1:14:04
  Check out the free introduction course.
• 1:14:06
  Take it from there.
• 1:14:07
  Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
• 1:14:08
  So that power spectrum, what they noticed is that when we're really you
• 1:14:12
  know, in alignment and having that, that the power, the strength, I,
• 1:14:17
  I, I akin it to a magnifying glass.
• 1:14:19
  When you're seeing the sun focus through a magnifying glass, if it has a very
• 1:14:22
  wide field, it's gonna create warmth.
• 1:14:25
  As soon as you get it to be able to focus, it has enough power that like a
• 1:14:28
  laser, it can start and ignite a fire.
• 1:14:31
  And so that's what can happen when we really are-- This is what when
• 1:14:35
  yogis are focusing on drishti.
• 1:14:37
  Drishti means one pointed focus awareness.
• 1:14:41
  And it's a very it's a capacity that we have with our intellect
• 1:14:44
  as humans to concentrate Okay?
• 1:14:48
  So when you concentrate your heart energy and you can practice that skill, you
• 1:14:52
  have a more efficient output that can be measured in its force, its heart force.
• 1:15:00
  And so when you're connected to your care and you're like, "Okay,
• 1:15:02
  I really love this person so much.
• 1:15:05
  I really want their wellness," and you're sending a coherent form of love, of
• 1:15:10
  support, of compassion, of encouragement, that has a measurable effect, right?
• 1:15:17
  And now they're starting to measure its effect not just on the planet,
• 1:15:20
  but on trees, you know, and hooking up sensors on trees so that when
• 1:15:24
  we're sending our heart, our loving energy, our care, that it actually is
• 1:15:29
  received through the sentience of the tree, and there's other responses.
• 1:15:33
  So that's, that's really where the researchers now from HeartMath
• 1:15:36
  are like, "Okay, we've made this body of work of humans.
• 1:15:38
  That's great.
• 1:15:39
  It's doing this.
• 1:15:40
  Now we really wanna focus on the impact that the human heart power and
• 1:15:44
  the human coherence, heart coherence has on the plant nation," because
• 1:15:49
  that's a little bit easier to measure than, say, rocks at this point.
• 1:15:53
  There's probably ways to measure it, but we don't yet have it.
• 1:15:56
  I'm sure the shamans that you have worked with and that I've been around who don't
• 1:15:59
  take this themselves seriously, they talk very specifically about the rock people
• 1:16:03
  as well as you know, the plant nation.
• 1:16:05
  So I just find it fascinating because- Well, it's
• 1:16:08
  Rupert Isaacson: interesting that you bring up plants because, of
• 1:16:09
  course, you know, plants and animals, we are i- in the hunter-gatherer
• 1:16:14
  context, we're supposed to...
• 1:16:16
  We usually have a, a relationship.
• 1:16:19
  It's been measured by various anthropologists of about, with about three
• 1:16:22
  when I say a relationship, I mean a close relationship with about s- 300 species at
• 1:16:28
  any one time across plants and animals.
• 1:16:31
  There are lots more out there, but the th- those 300 are usually the ones that are
• 1:16:36
  most closely bound up with our survival and thriving, so nutrition and medicinal.
• 1:16:43
  And because don't forget that eating the right animals is also medicinal.
• 1:16:48
  And I, I could go into that.
• 1:16:50
  Be- so for example, in, in in the Kalahari porcupine is a very sought after medicinal
• 1:16:57
  food because everything the porcupine eats happens to be a medicine for humans.
• 1:17:03
  So everything that's inside the porcupine is a constant condensation and synthesis
• 1:17:08
  of all of those drugs, if you like that natural pharma- pharmaceutical cocktail.
• 1:17:14
  So therefore, if you eat that meat- Right ... it is very good for you
• 1:17:17
  as opposed to something that eats things that are not good for you.
• 1:17:20
  So that's easy to understand.
• 1:17:23
  What's so easy to lose is the reciprocity.
• 1:17:27
  So- All systems within nature, right, are in reciprocity
• 1:17:32
  with each other, in symbiosis.
• 1:17:34
  S- even what appears to be parasitic, there's always some
• 1:17:37
  sort of underlying symbiosis.
• 1:17:39
  And the obv- the, the biggest example of that, I think that's come up in
• 1:17:43
  recent times is the whole ... Oh, God.
• 1:17:46
  The, the, the mushrooms, the, the, the myelin.
• 1:17:49
  Not myelin- Oh, okay ... that's in the brain.
• 1:17:51
  The my- myco- oh, God, Rupert.
• 1:17:54
  The, the we- Fungi?
• 1:17:55
  Kansas Carradine: Fantastic fungi?
• 1:17:56
  The- The,
• 1:17:56
  Rupert Isaacson: the, the, the, the-
• 1:17:58
  Kansas Carradine: Mycelium?
• 1:17:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Mycelium, thank you.
• 1:17:59
  Is it not mycelium?
• 1:18:00
  Oh, okay.
• 1:18:01
  ... the network that, that, that binds it seems the whole planet, and the trees
• 1:18:06
  pass- Right ... nutrients to each other through the mycelium network,
• 1:18:09
  and, but the mycelium network itself gives things to the trees and gets
• 1:18:13
  stuff itself, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:18:16
  And we think we're apart from that.
• 1:18:20
  You know, of course we're not.
• 1:18:21
  Mm.
• 1:18:21
  But yet, as you say, if you trace back just a very recent history of
• 1:18:25
  the last 200, 300 years, since this particular branch, these particular
• 1:18:30
  branches of ph- religious hardline-ness have come in, one of the points of,
• 1:18:35
  or those religious hardline-ness was to sever those connections.
• 1:18:39
  Well, the perception of those connections.
• 1:18:40
  You can't actually sever them because otherwise you'd die.
• 1:18:42
  Right.
• 1:18:43
  But any more than you could stop breathing oxygen.
• 1:18:45
  But nonetheless, you know, if, so if you had a wise woman who understood,
• 1:18:49
  you know, all of those herbs or what, you'd put her to death.
• 1:18:51
  You know, obvious thing.
• 1:18:53
  If you encounter native shamans, well, you, you Christianize them, and if they
• 1:18:56
  won't Christianize, you, you put 'em to death, and so on and so on, and then
• 1:18:59
  you get your industrial system going.
• 1:19:02
  So it seems like a revelation to us when mycelium networks have then
• 1:19:06
  come back under the eye of science, or that the landscape and the trees
• 1:19:13
  could observe us at the same time that we're observing them, that they
• 1:19:16
  could be sentient, that there could be a central bank of consciousness.
• 1:19:22
  It's only recently that people have even begun in our culture, not in ancient
• 1:19:28
  cultures, to allow for the fact that consciousness is something that we tap
• 1:19:35
  into but the human brain does not create.
• 1:19:38
  Whereas up until quite recently, your upbringing, my upbringing, we were told
• 1:19:42
  the human brain creates consciousness.
• 1:19:43
  And, you know, n- we know that now that's not true at all.
• 1:19:46
  So it's interesting that heart math begins to measure these things.
• 1:19:50
  You, I think, turned me onto this study, which I just pulled up off Google.
• 1:19:55
  I think it was you who turned me onto this study, and I think this one really
• 1:20:02
  crystallizes for people that are having trouble understanding
• 1:20:05
  what we're talking about here.
• 1:20:09
  In 1997, going back a ways now,
• 1:20:14
  the University of Kassel Which is in Germany, in Hessen.
• 1:20:20
  Germans, so they're not known for their woo-woo.
• 1:20:24
  Suggested, this study suggested that individuals practicing specialized
• 1:20:30
  heart-centered meditation, just as you described, just as you showed us at
• 1:20:34
  the beginning of this conversation, can emit 100,000 photons of light
• 1:20:44
  per second from their chest.
• 1:20:49
  I'm gonna read that again.
• 1:20:50
  A 1997 study from the University of Kassel suggested that individuals
• 1:20:55
  practicing specialized heart-centered meditation can emit 100,000 photons
• 1:21:00
  of light per second from their chest.
• 1:21:04
  This is claimed to be sufficient- significantly higher than the
• 1:21:07
  20 photons per second observed in average individuals.
• 1:21:14
  Methodology, researchers used a photomultiplier tube to measure light
• 1:21:19
  in a dark chamber during heart rhythm meditation, just as you had us go through,
• 1:21:25
  where practitioners focus on the heart and send, in inverted commas, love and light.
• 1:21:30
  Findings, the study claimed that focused emotion and intent can increase
• 1:21:36
  biophoton emission, biophotons, love it, from the body by a factor of 5,000.
• 1:21:43
  Context, while human bodies do emit low-intensity light, known as biophotons
• 1:21:49
  or ultra-weak photon emissions, UPEs, the, in this case, reported high-intensity
• 1:21:55
  emissions are what was being measured.
• 1:21:59
  Scientific reception the ... Of course, some people accepted it, some people
• 1:22:04
  didn't, but the fact is, 1997, 100,000 photons per second as opposed to a normal
• 1:22:14
  20 just going through these kind of
• 1:22:17
  So this is the kind of thing that HeartMath went off and studied.
• 1:22:22
  Okay, this was the University of Kassel, but many of these things were
• 1:22:25
  also used by, and to some degree, funded by HeartMath Institute.
• 1:22:31
  What was the history of HeartMath?
• 1:22:33
  How did it come about?
• 1:22:36
  Kansas Carradine: I, I mean, I think it would be great at some
• 1:22:38
  point to connect you with some people actually at the institute-
• 1:22:41
  We need them on the show, for sure
• 1:22:42
  so that they can explain a little bit more about it, yeah.
• 1:22:44
  But just in brief ... they trained certain practitioners.
• 1:22:47
  So there was a, a group of meditators and they were from
• 1:22:53
  South Carolina, North Carolina.
• 1:22:55
  And they had all centered around a, A guide named Doc Childre and one of
• 1:23:02
  the group, one of the meditators of that group was a scientist, research
• 1:23:05
  scientist, very, very interested.
• 1:23:07
  And I believe it's around the time that like TM was being very popular,
• 1:23:10
  so TM being Transcendental Meditation.
• 1:23:11
  Transcendental Meditation.
• 1:23:13
  Yeah.
• 1:23:13
  Meditation.
• 1:23:14
  And different communities who were just really interested in, you
• 1:23:17
  know, yoga, Eastern thought, and the mind, body, spirit connection,
• 1:23:20
  you know, what is that about?
• 1:23:22
  And so this particular researcher named Rollin McCraty who's the chief scientist
• 1:23:26
  at HeartMath, basically said exactly what you just described in that paper.
• 1:23:32
  We want to start to create more evidence to understand what the
• 1:23:38
  impact is of a being who is at peace, of a being who's connected to their
• 1:23:46
  heart, and why that's important.
• 1:23:50
  And so they started to decide like, okay, well, we need to actually,
• 1:23:54
  you know, be able to create an instrument to measure something.
• 1:23:57
  What can we measure?
• 1:23:59
  And so I don't know the, the whole history of at it, but it started with
• 1:24:03
  their main biofeedback technology, which is the first of its kind.
• 1:24:07
  So biofeedback in the sense like an EKG monitor, monitor but this was
• 1:24:11
  just measuring heart rate variability because most people, like I did
• 1:24:18
  it w- it's common you would think that the heart is just 60 beats per
• 1:24:21
  minute, but that's just an average.
• 1:24:24
  The heart is constantly speeding up and slowing down and adapting.
• 1:24:27
  You don't have to think about it.
• 1:24:28
  If you wanna run, your heart's gonna increase.
• 1:24:30
  If you're slowing down or you're going to sleep at night, it's gonna
• 1:24:33
  go down to a very, a slow rhythm.
• 1:24:35
  So your heart's always adapting.
• 1:24:38
  But what we don't realize is that with the power of our breath, we can create a
• 1:24:43
  much more even, organized tempo similar to that conductor of the orchestra
• 1:24:48
  that I mentioned at the beginning.
• 1:24:50
  Or when a rider is teaching a horse to be in piaffe and passage, you can
• 1:24:54
  teach them to dance to the music.
• 1:24:56
  When humans decide it's-- You know, I'm, this is just coming into my
• 1:25:00
  mind on how to articulate it 'cause I couldn't articulate it for a long time.
• 1:25:03
  It's the power of human You know, human talent to create music,
• 1:25:11
  to create order, the tribes that create shamanic songs and rhythm.
• 1:25:16
  It's like we live in this chaotic universe, and it's beautiful and it's
• 1:25:19
  wondrous, and then we have the power to create organization within it,
• 1:25:24
  with Mozart being able to download all of these incredible symphonies.
• 1:25:28
  But if they, if everyone was playing separate lines and they were out
• 1:25:31
  of sync, it would be a mess, right?
• 1:25:33
  So the heart organizes things to be the symphonic masterpiece, and then in
• 1:25:39
  a way it's we're creating art through our hearts, and that's when we get
• 1:25:44
  this 100,000 photons- Putting the art
• 1:25:46
  Rupert Isaacson: in heart.
• 1:25:47
  Sorry ... you
• 1:25:47
  Kansas Carradine: know?
• 1:25:48
  Right?
• 1:25:48
  Yeah.
• 1:25:48
  Yeah.
• 1:25:49
  Or the fart in heart at some point.
• 1:25:50
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, you...
• 1:25:51
  There's Mr.
• 1:25:52
  Methane who puts the- Yeah
• 1:25:53
  art in fart, but yes, that's it.
• 1:25:55
  Yeah.
• 1:25:55
  Kansas Carradine: Yes, yes, yes.
• 1:25:56
  Sorry.
• 1:25:56
  Yeah.
• 1:25:57
  But I've always said, like, you know, we...
• 1:26:00
  There's all kinds of things that we just can't measure yet because we
• 1:26:02
  don't have modern instrumentation.
• 1:26:03
  Yes.
• 1:26:04
  Yes.
• 1:26:04
  Or they're relegated to labs and universities and things like that.
• 1:26:08
  Yeah.
• 1:26:08
  They're not available for the commoner.
• 1:26:10
  But I believe that we're just still using kind of medieval technology,
• 1:26:14
  but there's actually quantum instrumentation- Yes ... in the labs
• 1:26:18
  and the universities all over the place.
• 1:26:20
  It just hasn't become as i- in the household of, of each individual.
• 1:26:26
  Well, you say that, though.
• 1:26:26
  But eventually this shit is happening.
• 1:26:28
  I, I
• 1:26:28
  Rupert Isaacson: think bio- biofeedback appli- you know
• 1:26:29
  devices now are more and more.
• 1:26:32
  I remember the first one- More ubiquitous ... I was ever, you know, first one most of
• 1:26:36
  us ever saw was an EEG machine, right?
• 1:26:38
  And they'd been using- Right ... those forever to measure brainwaves for
• 1:26:41
  epilepsy and so on, and so on, and so on.
• 1:26:43
  That's a bi- a biofeedback device.
• 1:26:45
  But I remember that, oh, it was 25 years ago or so, someone showed me something
• 1:26:49
  called a Scenar which came out of Russia-
• 1:26:52
  Yeah
• 1:26:53
  ... which was used to heal injuries for the Russian athletes.
• 1:26:58
  Right.
• 1:26:58
  And then after the wall came down, slowly those devices appeared
• 1:27:02
  on the market in the West.
• 1:27:04
  And I remember th- she was German, another German, and she- Mm-hmm ... showed this
• 1:27:07
  to me, and I was like, "Yeah, yeah," you know, my usual yeah sort of way.
• 1:27:12
  And then she said, "All right."
• 1:27:14
  I got, I got ended up with a, a brown recluse spider bite on the
• 1:27:18
  side of my face that wouldn't heal.
• 1:27:21
  And she said- Right ... "Bet you a pint, Rupert, this will help."
• 1:27:24
  I'm like, "Can't turn down a pint.
• 1:27:26
  Worst thing that happens is no pint."
• 1:27:27
  So- That's right ... or worst thing that happens is I have to buy you a pint,
• 1:27:30
  which means I'll probably drink a pint at the same time, so then how can I lose?
• 1:27:34
  So I used the device for two, three days.
• 1:27:38
  Took it on h- took it away with me on assignment.
• 1:27:40
  I was off to Honduras to write a piece.
• 1:27:43
  When I got back from Honduras five days later, the bite had, the whole infection,
• 1:27:47
  the whole lot just gone, and it had been getting worse and worse and worse.
• 1:27:49
  Mm.
• 1:27:50
  So I was like, okay, clearly something in it, and then I've been using them
• 1:27:53
  ever since and then there's like the- Mm
• 1:27:55
  Bemer blankets, B-E-M-E-R, that open up c- blood capillaries that- Our mutual friend
• 1:28:00
  Linda Tanton Jones turned me onto that.
• 1:28:02
  So I think those biofeedback devices are coming more and more.
• 1:28:05
  Vets use them, doctors use them, as you said.
• 1:28:07
  Certainly.
• 1:28:07
  But,
• 1:28:08
  Kansas Carradine: Totally common.
• 1:28:09
  It's awesome
• 1:28:09
  ... Rupert Isaacson: neurofeedback as a- Mm-hmm
• 1:28:11
  I remember when I was going through some, ooh, challenges a few years ago
• 1:28:16
  I ended up doing some neurofeedback and rather than therapy therapy, and
• 1:28:21
  my God, I could feel my brain change.
• 1:28:24
  I could feel my thoughts change.
• 1:28:26
  I could feel thought patterns- Mm ... getting kind of flushed out-
• 1:28:31
  Kansas Carradine: Mm
• 1:28:31
  ... Rupert Isaacson: as if one was washing them down the toilet a little bit.
• 1:28:35
  And of course, that's very similar to what goes on in shamanic ceremonies.
• 1:28:39
  Mm.
• 1:28:39
  You now use ... And so I think we can, we can accept that heart math is a thing.
• 1:28:45
  They, they can measure whether it's photons from the heart, whether it's-
• 1:28:49
  Kansas Carradine: Mm-hmm
• 1:28:50
  ... Rupert Isaacson: focused power, whether it's-
• 1:28:51
  Kansas Carradine: Heart rate variability ... heart rate
• 1:28:52
  Rupert Isaacson: variability and so on.
• 1:28:54
  Now let's look at the practical aspects.
• 1:28:57
  So somebody is running a equine assisted thing somewhere.
• 1:29:05
  How are they gonna use heart math?
• 1:29:06
  Well,
• 1:29:06
  Kansas Carradine: I just wanna pause because you brought such a great point,
• 1:29:09
  and this actually brings into the question that you were intuitively going to lead
• 1:29:13
  into, is that everything is energy, right?
• 1:29:16
  And, and that really can't be refuted- Sure ... even though we think that
• 1:29:19
  these things are solid, that there's vibrational- Yeah, everything-
• 1:29:23
  ... matter, that, that- ... everything is- ... making up matter ... vibrating.
• 1:29:25
  Everything's vibrational.
• 1:29:26
  Yeah.
• 1:29:26
  And
• 1:29:26
  so what we're looking at with heart math terms is we're just paying
• 1:29:29
  attention a little bit more to the frequencies of emotion, and we are
• 1:29:35
  made up of- The frequencies of the
• 1:29:36
  Rupert Isaacson: vibrations.
• 1:29:37
  Yes.
• 1:29:37
  Kansas Carradine: Right.
• 1:29:38
  Right.
• 1:29:39
  And so we have, m- you know, most water is, is a, is a conductor
• 1:29:44
  within our body, so we're feeling these frequencies all the time.
• 1:29:47
  Mm.
• 1:29:47
  And you were just speaking about you know, the vibrational qualities that
• 1:29:51
  shamans can tune into, and that, that, that's something that you train.
• 1:29:55
  But the population that is highly, highly sensitive, they might not even be, you
• 1:30:01
  know, on neurodivergent or whatnot, but just when you're highly sensitive,
• 1:30:05
  you're feeling vibrations all the time.
• 1:30:08
  Mm.
• 1:30:08
  Right?
• 1:30:09
  And we're talking about the impact also of, you know, EMFs in our field, like
• 1:30:13
  all the Wi-Fi signals that we have going around, all of the different chemicals
• 1:30:16
  that we're putting into our food, and that chemistry that it creates.
• 1:30:20
  And we can't really measure it or take into account.
• 1:30:23
  It's almost like a homeopathic 'cause we're getting small,
• 1:30:26
  small doses of environmental toxicity and all of those things.
• 1:30:29
  And you have widely imagine in, in your world and your industry
• 1:30:34
  seeing how these have impact, right?
• 1:30:37
  So it all these, these subtle things that we are starting to
• 1:30:40
  really pay attention to, this is why it's becoming more important.
• 1:30:45
  The reason that it's so, beautiful in a way to merit use the HeartMath
• 1:30:50
  understanding and system as a component when we're working
• 1:30:55
  with both animals and non-verbal individuals, it hones our non-verbal
• 1:31:00
  communication to focus on the feeling of 'Cause it's really the felt sense.
• 1:31:07
  When we say consoling words to someone, it's the feeling that we're after, right?
• 1:31:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:31:12
  So this kind of lets that fall away and, and allows us to connect with, I
• 1:31:18
  already said it, said it many times, connect with our care, connect with our
• 1:31:21
  percuss, connect with our love, and just notice that safety needs to be present.
• 1:31:25
  Well, guess what?
• 1:31:26
  We can attune ourselves as an instrument to feel into the resonance of safety, to
• 1:31:31
  connect with the feeling of gratitude.
• 1:31:33
  So a lot of people say, "Oh, you're around horses.
• 1:31:35
  That gives you some sort of, you know, superpower.
• 1:31:37
  You're gonna be enlightened."
• 1:31:38
  I'm like, if all horse trainers you know, just by association with horses
• 1:31:42
  became enlightened, you know, we would have a very different world,
• 1:31:46
  a very different equine industry.
• 1:31:48
  So it's not just being around them alone.
• 1:31:51
  It's this other X factor that I mentioned at the beginning of our talk, which is
• 1:31:55
  when you are feeling that real sense of compassionate latitude, when you're
• 1:32:01
  feeling that sense of understanding and care, when you are connected to
• 1:32:07
  being loving and kind and being helpful and wanting to be there for service.
• 1:32:12
  In fact, one of your videos that really impacted me, Rupert, is when you said
• 1:32:15
  something about tuning your whole life into now service and how that's
• 1:32:20
  created its own magnetism, its momentum.
• 1:32:23
  It's connected you to a different purpose, and that's what I would
• 1:32:26
  say HeartMath is measuring.
• 1:32:28
  Yes, your care really counts, and the more that you can focus your power spectrum
• 1:32:33
  into a coherent, ordered rhythm, that has an additional amplified in, in impact.
• 1:32:40
  So it's similar to when we, you know, you can have regular unleaded fuel
• 1:32:44
  or you can have rocket, rocket fuel.
• 1:32:47
  And so when you're doing a, a session with someone and you're aware of the
• 1:32:53
  sense of grounding and being able to communicate that to the parent, to the
• 1:32:57
  caregiver, and also able to communicate that resonance of safety and connection to
• 1:33:02
  the horse, you're setting an environment that has that much more harmony in it.
• 1:33:09
  It helps harmonize beings.
• 1:33:12
  And there's a lot of research that Heart, HeartMath has also done where you teach
• 1:33:16
  the technique to say a couple individuals and put them in a room, and everybody's
• 1:33:21
  hooked up to sensors, with individuals who know nothing about the technique, and all
• 1:33:27
  of them will entrain to each other They will all begin to sync up and organize and
• 1:33:32
  become what is called this coherent state.
• 1:33:36
  And even though some individuals don't know anything about it, and that's
• 1:33:40
  what happens when we come into an organization, into a, into a herd.
• 1:33:44
  You know, you can feel a barn or a stable that is like, "Oh, I really
• 1:33:47
  wanna be here," in resonance.
• 1:33:48
  You can feel the resonance of family.
• 1:33:51
  You can feel the resonance of dignity.
• 1:33:54
  You can feel the resonance of all are welcome here.
• 1:33:57
  I certainly feel it at Square Peg around Joelle and Becca and their organization.
• 1:34:02
  Oh, yeah.
• 1:34:02
  Right?
• 1:34:02
  Those of you who
• 1:34:03
  Rupert Isaacson: don't know the Square Peg Foundation, check out our Live Free Ride
• 1:34:07
  Free interview, or is it Equine Assisted World interview with Joelle Dunlap.
• 1:34:11
  Anywhere, look it up, Joelle Dunlap, Square Peg.
• 1:34:14
  Absolutely.
• 1:34:14
  Genius lady.
• 1:34:15
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:34:16
  Kansas Carradine: Right?
• 1:34:16
  And similarly, it's a resonance that you, a field that you walk into when
• 1:34:20
  you see a stable that's filled with judgment, that's filled with suppression-
• 1:34:23
  Mm ... that's filled with all of those type of anxiety and a lot of criticism.
• 1:34:30
  That's a felt sense as well.
• 1:34:32
  So the more that we can pay attention to this, learn about it, see what
• 1:34:36
  coherence can do, not only for the individual, but also for our horses, okay?
• 1:34:43
  Because when we are very purposeful about our intention, purposeful about our, our,
• 1:34:48
  the power of our heart, sending out those photons, I believe it's doing many things
• 1:34:53
  that we just haven't even measured yet.
• 1:34:55
  But yes, it does create a more suitable container to facilitate transformation.
• 1:35:05
  Rupert Isaacson: It goes back to this thing of, again, you might get someone
• 1:35:10
  saying, "Whoa, that's just common sense."
• 1:35:12
  The answer's yeah, it is.
• 1:35:15
  But have you measured it?
• 1:35:17
  When we measure it, then suddenly where, where we began with this conversation,
• 1:35:22
  then suddenly when someone says, "Well, I want to be more coercive."
• 1:35:29
  And as you said, why does coercion work?
• 1:35:32
  Well, it works to a degree, but it's limited.
• 1:35:38
  There's always a limiting factor.
• 1:35:41
  So if one wants to break through that glass ceiling of the limiting factor and
• 1:35:49
  go into real performance, real wellbeing, real lasting rehabilitation, then we're
• 1:35:59
  going to need a different approach.
• 1:36:03
  Kansas Carradine: Mm.
• 1:36:03
  Rupert Isaacson: If we can measure why the it's just common sense thing works,
• 1:36:08
  then we have a coherent argument for saying that's where- The science, the,
• 1:36:18
  the, the funding for studies needs to go.
• 1:36:20
  That's where government policy needs to go.
• 1:36:22
  That's why we don't hit kids in school anymore.
• 1:36:25
  That's why if you now get seen whipping your horse, you know, in
• 1:36:30
  the Olympics, it's not gonna go over well, whereas 40 years ago,
• 1:36:34
  maybe no one would've cared so much.
• 1:36:36
  You know- Mm ... things get better because people measure the commonsensical things.
• 1:36:41
  It's really important that people measure the commonsensical things,
• 1:36:46
  otherwise, the non-commonsensical things like fanaticism become the norm, and
• 1:36:52
  we're-- it's easy to forget that we're moving out of that in our own culture.
• 1:36:57
  When I was at school, I was beaten regularly.
• 1:37:01
  That's not that long ago.
• 1:37:02
  Now, it doesn't happen anymore.
• 1:37:04
  It largely doesn't happen because people went and did studies about why
• 1:37:07
  beating kids doesn't actually make them learn better and then can lead
• 1:37:12
  to all sorts of problems later in life that might cost the government money.
• 1:37:16
  Because if I'm drinking myself to death because of, you know, trauma
• 1:37:21
  that I had earlier, well then that's going to have a public health cost,
• 1:37:24
  and that's gonna have a this cost and a that cost and a blah, blah, blah.
• 1:37:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:37:28
  And governments do look at these things.
• 1:37:30
  Interestingly, we, we often think that it's, it's all a status quo and never
• 1:37:34
  gonna drain the Washington swamp or...
• 1:37:36
  But actually, I would s- posit that that policy becomes more and more progressive
• 1:37:42
  because I've seen it in my lifetime, and it's because of things like HeartMath.
• 1:37:48
  Kansas Carradine: Mm.
• 1:37:49
  Rupert Isaacson: I would also posit that within the equine-assisted world, you
• 1:37:52
  know, we've gone from the type of bossy pony club grandmother who meant very, very
• 1:38:01
  well that I grew up with in England, but who scared the shit out of us as kids.
• 1:38:07
  And then you put that kind of person together with a, a highly
• 1:38:11
  sensitive autistic person in a therapeutic riding environment- Mm
• 1:38:18
  and just the sheer body language, just the set of the shoulders, just the tone
• 1:38:22
  of voice that that person uses without even knowing that they use them, shuts
• 1:38:30
  down and freaks out the very person that is, quote-unquote, "their patient."
• 1:38:37
  Mm.
• 1:38:37
  Just quickly, it was, I think in the 1870s or 1880s, that bedside manner got studied
• 1:38:46
  in the UK wh- and then they realized that, yes if you had a good bedside manner,
• 1:38:53
  your patients tended to recover, and if you didn't, they tended to die despite
• 1:38:58
  how brilliant you were as a doctor.
• 1:39:01
  Empathy, compassion.
• 1:39:02
  So, yes, we need these studies.
• 1:39:06
  You were gonna say something.
• 1:39:08
  Kansas Carradine: I was, because you mentioned when you have a
• 1:39:12
  caregiver who is coming in with this tone of voice or posture.
• 1:39:18
  Tone of voice and posture are things that we can hear and see- Mm ... with
• 1:39:22
  the known senses, and I would argue that what we're talking about with HeartMath,
• 1:39:26
  what's horses feel and what those who are autistic feel is even beyond that.
• 1:39:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:39:34
  It's the energy that's sent forth in the unseen that again, we are not
• 1:39:39
  yet really in the habit of taking and tracking into account and measuring.
• 1:39:44
  So the thoughts of the other individual, the energy in the auric
• 1:39:50
  field that they carry around them-
• 1:39:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Or the, the photons or lap of coming out of
• 1:39:55
  Kansas Carradine: the heart
• 1:39:56
  is something that's being perceptible.
• 1:39:58
  Right.
• 1:39:58
  Right.
• 1:39:58
  Yeah.
• 1:39:58
  Exactly, and so when people talk about a horse, you know, who's going by, who
• 1:40:01
  shies at the same place all the time or is looking and say, "There's nothing there.
• 1:40:03
  What's wrong with you?"
• 1:40:04
  What's to say that they're seeing only things that are in 3D, right?
• 1:40:09
  They're perceiving something that's unseen, and I think that that's the beauty
• 1:40:14
  of what I love, is I was drawn to those things that are unseen, and HeartMath has
• 1:40:18
  helped give a little bit of language and vocabulary to describe some of that m-
• 1:40:24
  that mystery and make it less mysterious.
• 1:40:27
  And then this other that you mentioned is really important is we
• 1:40:31
  all have to breathe anyway, right?
• 1:40:33
  So might as well breathe through our hearts.
• 1:40:34
  It's complementary.
• 1:40:35
  I was very, very ashamed and embarrassed to talk about the HeartMath woo-woo new
• 1:40:41
  age California stuff that I was doing.
• 1:40:44
  I didn't tell anybody about it for nearly two decades until it
• 1:40:47
  was slowly extracted out of me.
• 1:40:50
  Yeah.
• 1:40:50
  So this is something that you can do very subtly wherever you go, and
• 1:40:55
  that's what is beautiful about it.
• 1:40:57
  Whether you're an Olympian or whether you are working with racehorses or
• 1:41:01
  whether you're working in hospital, whether you're working with research
• 1:41:04
  scientists as your relative, we all can be aware of the power of our heart-
• 1:41:11
  Indeed ... and the impact that it has.
• 1:41:13
  Rupert Isaacson: It, it's, it's, it's also true with all the
• 1:41:17
  stuff that's non-equine assisted.
• 1:41:18
  So I think this is one of the reasons why psychotherapy often falls short.
• 1:41:22
  When one is in a sort of sitting, you're the therapist and I'm sitting here, and
• 1:41:28
  you're not saying anything, and you're just asking questions, and you're writing
• 1:41:31
  in your notebook, this creates such a disempathetic power dynamic that I
• 1:41:36
  become afraid of you really fast, and I become afraid of saying the wrong thing.
• 1:41:40
  I probably want to please you.
• 1:41:42
  That comes from fear.
• 1:41:44
  How can this work, you know?
• 1:41:46
  And then-
• 1:41:49
  I, I ran into this with ABA, discrete trial ABA with my kid in
• 1:41:55
  the early years where we had these very coercive behavioral therapists
• 1:42:00
  who were not only upsetting him, but if we questioned anything,
• 1:42:06
  became really aggressive towards us.
• 1:42:08
  I was like- Mm ... it's clear in front of your eyes to this therapist
• 1:42:13
  that this child is trying to escape from the room that you're in.
• 1:42:17
  If I was in a round pen with a young horse and it was trying to climb out
• 1:42:22
  over the bars, I'd change something because I might get killed, you know?
• 1:42:28
  Just purely practical, even if I wasn't feeling any empathy, I would
• 1:42:33
  certainly feel enough empathy to myself to get the hell out of there and look
• 1:42:36
  at some sort of change of approach.
• 1:42:39
  Why aren't you?
• 1:42:40
  Well, because you're physically bigger than this kid, so you can coerce them.
• 1:42:43
  So we're moving from that era of coercion, even though that coercion was often
• 1:42:55
  coupled with good intentions, which has come out without ... I'm grateful
• 1:42:59
  that you drew the distinction within or, or you drew that historical line
• 1:43:03
  within the USA of, yes, people wanted to break with things that were less
• 1:43:08
  good about Europe when they came here, but at the same time, they brought
• 1:43:13
  a lot of things with them that they actually wanted to use oppressively
• 1:43:18
  and couldn't quite get away with in- Mm
• 1:43:21
  Europe as well.
• 1:43:22
  There were both.
• 1:43:23
  And that stream of ext- that skein, rather, of extremism and
• 1:43:29
  hardline coercion became, I think, wired into the American psyche.
• 1:43:34
  Kansas Carradine: With one of the world's largest genocides, absolutely.
• 1:43:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:43:39
  And Europe did the same thing.
• 1:43:42
  Go figure.
• 1:43:42
  It came from there.
• 1:43:44
  But nonetheless, if we can accept that that's what we're moving away from, the
• 1:43:50
  witch burnings, the Thirty Years' War, the wiping out of the Native Americans,
• 1:43:55
  the Holocaust, and we are saying that in the last 85 years, which is really all it
• 1:44:00
  is, we are trying to stop doing what we've been doing for the last 10,000 years- Mm
• 1:44:09
  um, well, then we haven't done a bad job.
• 1:44:12
  And those of us who are involved in this line of work, I think we're quite
• 1:44:18
  fortunate because we've seen rapid change.
• 1:44:22
  And people like you, as HeartMath practitioners, I would argue are
• 1:44:27
  in the front row of that rapidity because you're involved in something
• 1:44:33
  that has a foot both squarely in the esoteric and squarely in the O-terric.
• 1:44:41
  I don't know what's the opposite of esoteric . In the terric, I don't know.
• 1:44:44
  Earth.
• 1:44:45
  We should- Right.
• 1:44:46
  And while you were- Terr- yeah,
• 1:44:47
  ' Kansas Carradine: cause terric has to do with the earth, right?
• 1:44:50
  Yes.
• 1:44:50
  Terra.
• 1:44:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:44:51
  Exactly.
• 1:44:52
  And of course, there's much magic in, to do with the earth.
• 1:44:54
  That's what geomancy is.
• 1:44:55
  Certainly, certainly.
• 1:44:56
  While you were talking, I was, I was looking at a in PubMed, you know,
• 1:45:01
  where they publish medical studies.
• 1:45:04
  In 2025 Robert McCraty from HeartMath Institute,
• 1:45:08
  Kansas Carradine: Rollin.
• 1:45:09
  Rollin
• 1:45:10
  ... Rupert Isaacson: Rollin.
• 1:45:11
  Sorry, Rollin McCraty, you're absolutely right, with Jorina Albers published in the
• 1:45:17
  Global Advances in Integrative Medicine and Health, which is a peer-reviewed
• 1:45:22
  thing, From Dysregulation to Coherence: Exploring the HeartMath Approach to
• 1:45:26
  Emotional and Physiological Regulation.
• 1:45:29
  So anyone who wants a kind of latest type study should go check this one out.
• 1:45:38
  M- Mounting evidence suggests that the long-term effects of trauma and
• 1:45:42
  adversity are rooted out, are rooted not only in psychological distress, but in
• 1:45:48
  persistent dysregulation of the body's stress response and its associated
• 1:45:54
  neuroendocrine systems or hormones.
• 1:45:57
  Mm-hmm ... and then, okay, we, we sort of go to the bottom.
• 1:46:01
  Well, what were the outcomes of the study?
• 1:46:04
  And, mm, mm, mm, mm, gotta scroll down a fair old bit because these
• 1:46:09
  studies are quite long conclusion.
• 1:46:12
  The effects of chronic stress, trauma, and adversity are reflected in the
• 1:46:18
  dysregulation of neuroendocrine and other physiological systems, contributing
• 1:46:24
  to a spectrum of physical and mental health issues across the lifespan.
• 1:46:29
  So the idea of someone might be going through your equine-assisted
• 1:46:33
  practice for six months, a year, but they, we're talking about a lifespan
• 1:46:38
  here that we might be part of.
• 1:46:41
  Heart rate variability has emerged as a valuable stress biomarker, offering
• 1:46:46
  insights into autonomic activity and its association with various mental
• 1:46:50
  and physical health conditions.
• 1:46:52
  The therapeutic application of heart rate variability coherence
• 1:46:55
  biofeedback presents a promising avenue for mitigating the clinical
• 1:46:59
  consequences, the clinical consequences of dysregulation, demonstrating of
• 1:47:05
  efficacy in treating stress, anxiety, depression, and even chronic diseases.
• 1:47:10
  Regular practice inc- using heart rate variability coherence biofeedback and
• 1:47:15
  HeartMath self-regulation techniques over time can cultivate the sense,
• 1:47:19
  the state of coherence, establishing a new inner baseline that promotes
• 1:47:24
  physiological and emotional regulation and a roadmap- To greater health.
• 1:47:29
  A roadmap to greater health.
• 1:47:30
  That's interesting.
• 1:47:32
  Continued exploration of the mechanisms that underlie the physiological
• 1:47:35
  impact of coherence and its long-term effects will deepen our
• 1:47:39
  understanding of this intervention.
• 1:47:41
  Ultimately, the integration of HeartMath self-regulation techniques and heart
• 1:47:45
  rate variability coherence biofeedback into therapeutic practices, that's us,
• 1:47:50
  represents a noteworthy advancement, empowering individuals with a safe,
• 1:47:54
  non-invasive, non-invasive, that's interesting too, so no putting stuff
• 1:47:58
  into people, no mouth swabs and that an effective tool to enhance
• 1:48:02
  emotional and physiological well-being.
• 1:48:04
  These, I guess, were the heart rate variability monitors that
• 1:48:08
  you were talking about earlier.
• 1:48:10
  Yeah.
• 1:48:11
  All right, so how do we begin?
• 1:48:13
  I'm s- I'm sitting here in Derbyshire, England.
• 1:48:15
  I'm sitting here in, you know, you know, central Slovakia, and I'm
• 1:48:18
  running a equine-assisted practice, and I'm listening to Rupert bang
• 1:48:25
  on and wishing that he'd stop talking and let Kansas talk more.
• 1:48:30
  So their question is going to be, how do I start?
• 1:48:37
  Kansas Carradine: Right.
• 1:48:37
  So I teach classes online, and I do it from the equestrian's point of view.
• 1:48:43
  So even though I'm HeartMath certified trainer and I'm also at the same
• 1:48:47
  time training these HeartMath tools to individuals who are in rehab and
• 1:48:52
  treatment programs to veterans who are not equestrians, I also have my entire career
• 1:48:58
  that is built on working with horses.
• 1:49:00
  And we haven't got to this point yet, but in 2008, I started working with
• 1:49:04
  Ariana Strozzi Mazuki, and that ended up being my first deliberate foot on the
• 1:49:12
  path of the horse as healer industry.
• 1:49:15
  And so I became an equine guided educator.
• 1:49:17
  She mostly focused on working with a trauma-informed approach and also in
• 1:49:23
  leadership development and skills.
• 1:49:25
  That was more the demographic served.
• 1:49:27
  And and then I've always been very passionate about working with women,
• 1:49:30
  specifically with, with women's health and navigating through all of the
• 1:49:33
  different roles that women carry.
• 1:49:36
  And so I teach those courses online and there's also more information about
• 1:49:42
  HeartMath and all of its research.
• 1:49:43
  You were reading like two articles today but there's actually several
• 1:49:46
  hundred different peer-reviewed- Yeah ... research articles at heartmath.org.
• 1:49:50
  And sometimes it's focusing on different you know, diseases or
• 1:49:54
  dysautonomia and whatnot, and its impact on those- What's dysautonomia?
• 1:49:59
  When the autonomic nervous system can't regulate.
• 1:50:03
  Okay.
• 1:50:03
  It has a-- And actually, I sh- I'm not going to be the real,
• 1:50:08
  authority on dysautonomia.
• 1:50:10
  I have colleagues who are HeartMath trainers who are also more skilled
• 1:50:14
  in that domain, and they've shared how it's helped their dysautonomia.
• 1:50:18
  But it, it has an impact on many different It, it, it exhibits in many different ways
• 1:50:23
  in terms of health, right, and wellness.
• 1:50:26
  And so, the research that you're able to explore is interesting for the head, but
• 1:50:31
  the experiential education that we feel, that we practice, that we go through, just
• 1:50:36
  like you can read books about riding, but you actually have to get in the saddle.
• 1:50:40
  You can watch movies that are lovely about horses, but it's not until you actually
• 1:50:44
  own one and you're out there, you know, shoveling poo every day and your body's
• 1:50:48
  getting used to being around livestock, that you really begin to integrate
• 1:50:51
  and embody those type of teachings.
• 1:50:53
  And so what I do is through one-on-one coaching and through my online
• 1:50:57
  courses, I invite people to start to learn how to live from the heart.
• 1:51:01
  What does that actually mean?
• 1:51:02
  What does it feel like?
• 1:51:04
  If you want to buy a device we definitely can work with those Inner
• 1:51:08
  Balance HeartMath biofeedback devices.
• 1:51:11
  But the beauty is you don't have to spend so much time.
• 1:51:13
  Horses, if you're around nature, are one form of biofeedback, and the natural
• 1:51:19
  world sometimes, again, you know...
• 1:51:22
  This is a really important point.
• 1:51:23
  So when I started doing equine therapy, I was always thinking, gosh, it's quite
• 1:51:26
  tragic that people who don't have access to horses can't get this, and that
• 1:51:32
  people who've had a taste of it might not be able to create that regularly
• 1:51:36
  due to circumstances and resources and all of that not being available.
• 1:51:40
  And so this, to me, was a take-home tool to continue to have
• 1:51:45
  a level of that felt resonance.
• 1:51:48
  So even for your listeners in the moment or listening wherever they
• 1:51:51
  are, right now in this moment, come back into that heart focus.
• 1:51:56
  Bring your attention into the area around the heart, the chest area, and
• 1:52:00
  as you're breathing, breathe in through the heart and out through the heart,
• 1:52:05
  just imagining that the flow is coming in and out of that intrinsic cardiac
• 1:52:11
  nervous system, the tiny heart brain.
• 1:52:15
  And I want you to connect with the gratitude that you have for Rupert and
• 1:52:19
  his information and all of the wonderful presenters and teachers that he has on
• 1:52:26
  not just his podcast, but at his farm and perhaps through all of the different
• 1:52:33
  books that he's been able to sprinkle like seeds throughout the planet.
• 1:52:39
  Or if you've had any mentors in your life who have touched you, teachers
• 1:52:44
  even in the form of those non-verbal, either in two-legged or four-legged form.
• 1:52:50
  Wisdom comes through many different avenues, and just begin to breathe
• 1:52:53
  gratitude for all of the wisdom that you've learned through life experience.
• 1:53:01
  And breathe that feeling of gratitude in through the heart
• 1:53:04
  and out through the heart.
• 1:53:12
  And as an act of service, just imagine that you're sharing that with anyone
• 1:53:17
  here now who doesn't have yet all of those capacities, maybe doesn't have
• 1:53:26
  the community where they feel connected.
• 1:53:29
  Just imagine that you're radiating out from the warmth of your heart
• 1:53:33
  those 100,000 protons, that your power spectrum has meaningful impact.
• 1:53:43
  Just like the rays of the sun can lift the density of clouds,
• 1:53:48
  your heart power has an impact.
• 1:53:52
  And the visceral experience that you have right now, give
• 1:53:55
  gratitude to your own heart for bringing you here in this moment.
• 1:54:00
  And for each and every interaction that we have, it's really a gift.
• 1:54:03
  It's teaching us through lived experience.
• 1:54:06
  So we can taste gratitude.
• 1:54:09
  We can also taste compassion.
• 1:54:11
  We can taste the subtle nuanced difference of forgiveness or patience or ease,
• 1:54:19
  and explore how each of those feel and how they really color our days.
• 1:54:28
  And so Rupert, you paint so many beautiful masterpieces through your
• 1:54:32
  words, and the invitation is that we can also create masterpieces through the
• 1:54:39
  resonance of our, our heart and the field that we carry with us wherever we go.
• 1:54:47
  And it really does cross cultural lines, it crosses borders,
• 1:54:52
  it even crosses timelines.
• 1:54:56
  And I love that this system, for those who are feeling dysregulated,
• 1:55:02
  it can create a sense of regulation.
• 1:55:05
  For those who are feeling like they're hopeless to make a change, I would say no.
• 1:55:15
  The-- as long as you have a heart, no matter what your physical state
• 1:55:19
  is, no matter what your situational state is, you can have impact.
• 1:55:27
  And we all do.
• 1:55:28
  So thank you so much, Rupert, for having me on.
• 1:55:31
  Thank you to all the listeners here, because I know that they are, without
• 1:55:34
  a doubt lighting a small fire in their communities, in their homes, just through
• 1:55:41
  acts of being attentive, present, and truly caring, connected to your care.
• 1:55:50
  That makes a big difference.
• 1:55:52
  So what's HeartMath doing?
• 1:55:53
  They're measuring your care
• 1:56:01
  Rupert Isaacson: That was very beautiful.
• 1:56:05
  And obviously I'm very honored by the kind words, too.
• 1:56:09
  Thank you.
• 1:56:09
  Those are caring, and those heal aspects of myself that need healing.
• 1:56:18
  So thank you, I'm grateful for
• 1:56:21
  Kansas Carradine: that.
• 1:56:21
  Mm.
• 1:56:29
  And so I'm curious to share a little bit your, your state, because we spend so
• 1:56:33
  much time in language and we get busy.
• 1:56:36
  But it f- from observation, it looks as though as this has created a
• 1:56:40
  pause that's just a little bit more receptive and a softer way of listening.
• 1:56:48
  Rupert Isaacson: From me?
• 1:56:49
  Kansas Carradine: Mm.
• 1:56:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
• 1:56:57
  You know, there's, there, one of the things about podcasting is that there's a,
• 1:57:03
  there's an energy to it where you're
• 1:57:08
  alert highly alert because you, you know that your job, if you're the
• 1:57:17
  podcaster, is to help to bring out the story and the value of that story.
• 1:57:29
  So you must be in this state of alertness, and at the same
• 1:57:39
  time, you must listen deeply.
• 1:57:45
  Striking the balance is moment to moment.
• 1:57:51
  Mm.
• 1:57:52
  And it's also necessary that the balance tips and goes like this,
• 1:57:57
  because that reflects real life.
• 1:58:00
  So if one was in a state of absolute deep listening all the time, there
• 1:58:04
  would be no podcast 'cause there'd be no conversation, because, you know, that's,
• 1:58:09
  that would be a different dynamic.
• 1:58:10
  That would be more like a guided meditation.
• 1:58:14
  At the same time, there's nothing wrong with a guided meditation which
• 1:58:17
  is to a large degree what you just g- very generously gave to us there.
• 1:58:22
  And at the same time, one has to have a dynamic.
• 1:58:28
  And that, I think, is absolutely true of, let's say, one's doing a, an
• 1:58:35
  equine-assisted session of some sort.
• 1:58:38
  One is dancing between- Many of these variables, including
• 1:58:42
  one wants to be of service.
• 1:58:45
  There might be some goals, some stated goals.
• 1:58:50
  You want to offer value to the person that you are serving, to their family.
• 1:58:57
  That's value of experience, value for money, value of actual measured wellbeing
• 1:59:06
  and, you know, solutions to dilemmas.
• 1:59:11
  There can be a certain pressure on you for this.
• 1:59:14
  You might be under some time pressures, too.
• 1:59:17
  You're managing the horse.
• 1:59:18
  Mm.
• 1:59:18
  You've gotta keep people alive, which no matter how well-trained your horse is,
• 1:59:24
  there's always a certain variable when one's dealing with large livestock and
• 1:59:30
  what can come into their nervous systems.
• 1:59:34
  Mm.
• 1:59:34
  And then there's the need to listen because of that deeply to the
• 1:59:38
  horse, deeply to the person you're serving, deeply to yourself and
• 1:59:43
  deeply to the environment around you.
• 1:59:47
  And I think that's going on when one's podcasting, too.
• 1:59:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:59:52
  But it means that, yes, the energy can be more here
• 1:59:58
  and perhaps needs to be
• 2:00:02
  in order so that some things can get communicated, not forgotten.
• 2:00:07
  You know, one's writing notes and let- let's make sure we return to this
• 2:00:11
  thing and clarify that point and all those things, the journalistic side.
• 2:00:17
  That's also part of service, to try and make sure that questions
• 2:00:23
  get answered and, you know...
• 2:00:26
  and at the same time, it requires that deep listening.
• 2:00:28
  I...
• 2:00:29
  What you just did there made me think perhaps I need to restructure the way
• 2:00:37
  I go about some of these interviews.
• 2:00:42
  Mm.
• 2:00:43
  Between your song and what you just did for us
• 2:00:50
  allows more of a felt experience- Mm ... for the people who
• 2:00:56
  interact with this podcast- Mm
• 2:00:58
  which means that they could take more tangibly away- Mm ... than if
• 2:01:04
  we just limited it to discussion.
• 2:01:07
  So thank you.
• 2:01:08
  You've given me pause for thought because...
• 2:01:13
  And you...
• 2:01:13
  And, and a couple of ideas
• 2:01:16
  Kansas Carradine: So this is an interesting byproduct that's
• 2:01:18
  well-documented 'cause eHeartMath has also researched a lot extensively,
• 2:01:23
  in fact, about intuition.
• 2:01:25
  And when we are connected to coherence, we get connected to our creative aspects and
• 2:01:31
  our intuition, to our intuitive guidance, and so we get different downloads.
• 2:01:35
  That's the channeling aspect in a way, right?
• 2:01:37
  When I said we all channel.
• 2:01:40
  And so these ideas come from a nonlinear place when we're connected
• 2:01:44
  to a deeper sense of heart resonance, such as connecting to what we care
• 2:01:48
  about or really feeling that, you know, figure eight of consciousness,
• 2:01:54
  that feedback loop you have.
• 2:01:57
  We're not only feeling the resonance of you and I here, but we're feeling
• 2:02:01
  the quantum resonance of all the beings who will ever listen to this
• 2:02:05
  at any given time in this moment as it kind of folds on itself.
• 2:02:12
  And so-- And the song that I spoke about, that creates that
• 2:02:15
  rhythm as well with the breath.
• 2:02:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:02:18
  When we have our, our, our breathing pattern is more full, right?
• 2:02:23
  And what I would also share is that this particular technique, and I go through
• 2:02:28
  how it can be incorporated into any given program and practice with your horses
• 2:02:33
  or within a therapeutic larger offering for clients, is we have a form of prep.
• 2:02:39
  If you have people coming, you set the table.
• 2:02:41
  If you have people coming to your barn, you rake it up and, you
• 2:02:46
  know, put away the poo sometimes to make it look ready and present.
• 2:02:49
  Uh-oh.
• 2:02:50
  Rupert's eyes got wide.
• 2:02:52
  But okay, there's a way of preparation- Note to self.
• 2:02:54
  When Candice comes- ... whatever it is, even- ... rake
• 2:02:55
  Rupert Isaacson: up the poo.
• 2:02:56
  Yes, got it.
• 2:02:57
  Now,
• 2:02:57
  Kansas Carradine: okay.
• 2:02:57
  Even, even to like set up the flip chart or get the saddle out, right?
• 2:03:00
  Of course.
• 2:03:01
  We're gonna use our tack.
• 2:03:01
  Yeah.
• 2:03:02
  So it's prepped.
• 2:03:02
  Absolutely.
• 2:03:03
  So another form of prep is to lay the resonant foundation of the energetic and
• 2:03:09
  to-- so to set the tone, if you will.
• 2:03:12
  And that's something that we can do as tone setters.
• 2:03:16
  It's absolutely something that the shamans will do when they know that you're coming,
• 2:03:19
  even though you haven't sent an email.
• 2:03:22
  And then they're like- Yeah ... "Okay, Rupert's gonna be on his way.
• 2:03:24
  I'm going to set the tone for the residents here with the guides,"
• 2:03:27
  and bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, and they're working with all this
• 2:03:29
  energetics of earth, air, fire, and water and bringing in the elements.
• 2:03:33
  It's, it's a, it's an absolute purposeful act.
• 2:03:37
  And so us as monkeys, as mortals in this human world, I'm not a shaman, but
• 2:03:43
  I've learned this very simple technique to be able to set the tone as a form
• 2:03:48
  of prep, to set the field resonance.
• 2:03:51
  So how do I want the horse to feel when I'm having an interaction,
• 2:03:54
  when I'm training together?
• 2:03:56
  And I know very clearly I want harmonious connection That's paramount.
• 2:04:00
  I want them to feel respect.
• 2:04:02
  I want them to feel my appreciation.
• 2:04:04
  Mm.
• 2:04:04
  And so
• 2:04:05
  before I work with, with a, with a, a group, either four-legged or
• 2:04:10
  two-legged, I'm gonna get very clear about what my motivation is, and then
• 2:04:14
  do these micro meditations to connect with that feeling and send that forth.
• 2:04:19
  And I love the fact that we've got this image of 100,000 protons when we talk
• 2:04:23
  about, "Oh, I'm gonna send you light."
• 2:04:25
  We can kind of say it in a casual way that isn't as grounded in reality, and this is
• 2:04:32
  a technique that grounds it in reality, and it's complimentary- There might even
• 2:04:35
  be some Germans running around measuring
• 2:04:37
  Rupert Isaacson: it as it comes out of your heart, yes.
• 2:04:38
  to
• 2:04:38
  Kansas Carradine: what you're already doing.
• 2:04:39
  Right.
• 2:04:39
  Soon.
• 2:04:39
  Yeah, exactly.
• 2:04:40
  We'll have a little...
• 2:04:41
  That's the scribes.
• 2:04:42
  Where's Merlin's assistants?
• 2:04:44
  Bring them along.
• 2:04:46
  Yeah.
• 2:04:46
  It's a, it's fun.
• 2:04:47
  It's exciting.
• 2:04:47
  And then we'll go out and play, you know?
• 2:04:49
  What is the resonance of play?
• 2:04:51
  That absolutely- Mm ... has a felt sense and a texture to it.
• 2:04:57
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:04:57
  We, we never call- Doing more ... our sessions therapy.
• 2:04:59
  We always call them play dates.
• 2:05:01
  I met a child that wanted therapy never.
• 2:05:06
  I met a child that wanted to play every day.
• 2:05:11
  Kansas Carradine: Always.
• 2:05:12
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:05:12
  Yeah.
• 2:05:13
  And I make- meet horses that wanna play every day.
• 2:05:16
  Yeah ... it, yeah, playfulness is, I think, something we should
• 2:05:21
  return to in another conversation because that's what- This is
• 2:05:24
  Kansas Carradine: what I loved about the horse ranch.
• 2:05:26
  Yeah.
• 2:05:26
  'Cause ultimately we were learning how to play and do amazing things, but I've
• 2:05:32
  got the risk management down, so to do it safely, which is why I would love...
• 2:05:35
  We wanna collaborate together-
• 2:05:37
  Yeah
• 2:05:37
  ... because I know there's some of these Cossack exercises that we can take
• 2:05:41
  off the battlefield into- 100% ... the playground and have a great time.
• 2:05:45
  Rupert Isaacson: 100%.
• 2:05:45
  100%.
• 2:05:46
  I mean, it's the same thing, the classical system that we use to train
• 2:05:48
  our horses because it makes them safe, balanced, and also able to give
• 2:05:52
  oxytocin- Perfect ... to a rider.
• 2:05:54
  Kansas Carradine: Yes.
• 2:05:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Was originally developed partly to work livestock and partly in
• 2:05:57
  battle for hand-to-hand, you know, combat.
• 2:06:01
  So we can decide how we wanna use it, just the same as with your- Mm
• 2:06:04
  with your Cossack riding.
• 2:06:06
  We can use it to harm our fellow man, or we can use it to heal our fellow man.
• 2:06:10
  That's really up to us.
• 2:06:12
  It's the same system.
• 2:06:13
  Same with martial arts.
• 2:06:14
  You can use them to, to heal or to harm.
• 2:06:16
  But the te- knowing the technology is useful.
• 2:06:20
  So yes, we're gonna collaborate.
• 2:06:21
  So listen, listeners, viewers, there's gonna be stuff.
• 2:06:26
  We're gonna do stuff.
• 2:06:28
  We're gonna be doing stuff.
• 2:06:29
  The, y- you'll, this is being recorded in May 26.
• 2:06:33
  By M- May, June 27, hopefully, no, certainly me and Kansas
• 2:06:39
  are gonna do our first gig.
• 2:06:41
  It'll happen in the Sierra Nevadas of California, 'cause that's where
• 2:06:44
  she lives, so it's horses are there.
• 2:06:47
  Then we will also do some stuff in Europe.
• 2:06:49
  So come Along and attend.
• 2:06:52
  And what we're also gonna do, we've touched on so many
• 2:06:54
  things in this conversation that we couldn't fully develop.
• 2:06:59
  So what I want to do is now a little series of, say, maybe 20-minute
• 2:07:04
  conversations that we'll do about various aspects of horsemanship
• 2:07:09
  and horse training, and how we can bring these practices into it.
• 2:07:12
  What meditations, what prayers, what actual physical techniques, what-- how
• 2:07:16
  do we create a mishmash that actually works situation by, context by context?
• 2:07:22
  So if you're up for that, those are gonna be appearing on YouTube too.
• 2:07:26
  And if you need more Kansas in your life, and you'd be sort of
• 2:07:29
  insane if you didn't then Kansas, can you give us the touchpoints for
• 2:07:34
  how people can get in contact with you, take courses with you- Sure
• 2:07:37
  that have nothing to do with me, that are just purely Kansas?
• 2:07:40
  Kansas Carradine: Sure.
• 2:07:41
  Yeah, the primary place to reach out is at circuscowgirl.com,
• 2:07:45
  which is part of this kind of you know, trick riding performance world.
• 2:07:49
  And at some point it might shift in something that is a little bit
• 2:07:52
  more focused on the heart-based horsemanship, which is really the
• 2:07:56
  technique that I'm kind of developing and teaching my heart coherence classes.
• 2:08:01
  So circuscowgirl.com.
• 2:08:02
  I never did social media but I was, you know, kind of dragged onto it kicking and
• 2:08:08
  screaming, so there is a Facebook page.
• 2:08:10
  It's not really something that I'm very deft at, so it doesn't have
• 2:08:15
  that much in terms of how, what social media people do, I guess.
• 2:08:19
  But every once in a while I'll throw something up there as well.
• 2:08:21
  Rupert Isaacson: But people can also contact you through that.
• 2:08:23
  They can message you through that.
• 2:08:24
  Kansas Carradine: Always.
• 2:08:25
  Yeah.
• 2:08:25
  Yeah, Facebook Messenger is not my primary means of meth- because like
• 2:08:28
  I said, I'm really not, I don't have it on my phone for very specific
• 2:08:32
  reasons, and I might go weeks at a time without going onto Facebook.
• 2:08:36
  Rupert Isaacson: You mean you don't want things going
• 2:08:38
  do-do-do-do at 3:00 in the morning?
• 2:08:39
  I, I can't- Yeah ... really, Kansas.
• 2:08:41
  Kansas Carradine: I have enough things to-- This is a weapon of mass distraction-
• 2:08:44
  ... that already I have to get its tentacles out of my brain regularly
• 2:08:48
  and do some shamanic cord cutting.
• 2:08:53
  Okay.
• 2:08:54
  Rupert Isaacson: From time to time.
• 2:08:54
  So
• 2:08:55
  Kansas Carradine: yes, and just very simply you know, you can reach out by
• 2:08:58
  email, and I have a easy email address.
• 2:09:00
  It's kansascarradine@gmail.
• 2:09:03
  Rupert Isaacson: kansascarradine@gmail.com.
• 2:09:05
  Carradine could be spelled like 8,000 ways, so how do we spell Carradine?
• 2:09:10
  Kansas Carradine: C-A-double R-A-D-I-N-E.
• 2:09:12
  Right.
• 2:09:12
  So instead of Carradine, which helps it phonetically, which you had said at the
• 2:09:18
  beginning of our call, it is Carradine.
• 2:09:20
  Sorry.
• 2:09:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm British- Yeah
• 2:09:21
  and we invented the language, and so we say it Carradine.
• 2:09:23
  It's got a long I.
• 2:09:24
  Ta hee.
• 2:09:24
  Kansas Carradine: Right.
• 2:09:25
  Right.
• 2:09:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Sorry.
• 2:09:26
  Apologies.
• 2:09:27
  All good.
• 2:09:27
  Kansas Carradine, Yeah ... even though it's spelled Carradine at Gmail.
• 2:09:33
  Kansas like the state.
• 2:09:34
  At Gmail.
• 2:09:35
  Yeah.
• 2:09:35
  Yep.
• 2:09:35
  Such a great name.
• 2:09:37
  Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
• 2:09:38
  And I do- Right ... in-person clinics as well as a lot of these one-on-one
• 2:09:44
  phone sessions because we don't-- The beauty is we don't have to be in
• 2:09:48
  physical proximity to be able to- Yeah
• 2:09:50
  get that felt sense.
• 2:09:51
  We all had it right here.
• 2:09:53
  We're connected to that.
• 2:09:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Something I would also say listeners and viewers you can contact
• 2:10:00
  her about HeartMath stuff obviously, and mental health stuff, and all of this
• 2:10:02
  good stuff, but horse training stuff too.
• 2:10:05
  So here's a little full disclosure.
• 2:10:07
  I gave a, a course in Tequin, which is one of our equine-assisted methods
• 2:10:14
  in Idaho a couple of years ago.
• 2:10:17
  Kansas attended with her daughter Bodhi.
• 2:10:22
  There were some variables which made me very grateful for the
• 2:10:26
  fact that I had a horse person of such high caliber to help out.
• 2:10:35
  Even though she was supposed to be there as a client, she
• 2:10:37
  actually was a co-facilitator.
• 2:10:40
  She just ended up paying for it and not getting paid, so we need
• 2:10:42
  to reverse that dynamic somehow.
• 2:10:44
  So the quality of the horsemanship learned through these high-pressure situations
• 2:10:56
  in the Riata Ranch and at Cavalia, which c- you know, everyone knows about Cavalia
• 2:11:02
  and the high standard it had are very real
• 2:11:05
  Kansas Carradine: And some people, some people may not, right?
• 2:11:07
  So, there's- It's true ... bringing it to a new generation, 'cause
• 2:11:10
  our last show was in 2018.
• 2:11:11
  Yeah, that's true.
• 2:11:12
  We were trying to mount a show in 2020 in China, but then the
• 2:11:15
  pandemic put a, a squash on all that.
• 2:11:18
  But it was a melange of many different disciplines.
• 2:11:21
  So- Mm ... we have old style circus, you know, seven ger- generation bareback
• 2:11:25
  riders doing Rosenbeck riding, and then European classical dressage and or most-
• 2:11:30
  mostly French classical dressage, but very much in Nuno's lineage, as well as
• 2:11:35
  American style trick riders, but then riders from Kyrgyzstan, Kazakh riders.
• 2:11:39
  We had Spanish and Australian.
• 2:11:42
  And so from all over the world, everybody came together, and we all
• 2:11:46
  listened and observed and witnessed and worked on each other's, you
• 2:11:50
  know, interdisciplinary aspects.
• 2:11:52
  So it was a great education to work with, you know, liberty, lightness as
• 2:11:56
  always being paramount honoring the horse as, to the highest order that we can.
• 2:12:01
  And, and you know, my dream within that show, it was under a huge white tent.
• 2:12:05
  It was the largest touring show at the time, like I said, with about
• 2:12:08
  either 70 to even 90 head of horses.
• 2:12:11
  And I always felt like, this is a shamanic experience.
• 2:12:14
  It's getting people into their hearts.
• 2:12:16
  It was emotionally evocative with the music and seeing the horses.
• 2:12:19
  So people said that, especially with the first show with Fred Pignon and Fred, and
• 2:12:23
  Magali Delgado, that everybody would come and it was this cathart- catharsis, this
• 2:12:29
  cathartic experience, because it really was transformative about the h- the, the
• 2:12:35
  power of the human and horse relationship as being so sacred and special.
• 2:12:42
  And that's because we're Eurocentric, because in other places you could
• 2:12:44
  do it with elephants- ... and create amazing things.
• 2:12:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:12:49
  Well, you go with your, you go with your ancestors.
• 2:12:52
  I saw that show.
• 2:12:53
  I saw that show with Frederic Pignon and Magali Pignon, and I presume you.
• 2:12:58
  I just didn't know you were in it at the time.
• 2:13:00
  And I was transported.
• 2:13:02
  I've seen lots of amazing equestrian spectaculars of one sort or another.
• 2:13:09
  They're all phenomenal.
• 2:13:11
  That one, I walked away changed.
• 2:13:15
  I think it, it fundamentally changed...
• 2:13:19
  It w- it was a formative experience for me in my horse education.
• 2:13:22
  Mm.
• 2:13:23
  And if, if only to show what, what's possible.
• 2:13:26
  It, it made me realize that I didn't need to have limits to, yeah,
• 2:13:35
  how I perceived the whole thing.
• 2:13:37
  And so I'd say it massively informed what turned into Horse Boy.
• 2:13:41
  Yeah, so you, you had a, you had a hand in that, Kansas.
• 2:13:45
  All right.
• 2:13:46
  So circuscowgirl.com.
• 2:13:48
  Send her an email.
• 2:13:50
  And KansasCaradeen, sorry, @gmail.
• 2:13:53
  That's okay.
• 2:13:54
  And her Facebook page, just look her up on Facebook.
• 2:13:57
  Contact her about all these things.
• 2:13:59
  Look out for the stuff we're gonna do in 2027.
• 2:14:03
  Those are the plugs.
• 2:14:05
  All right, lads.
• 2:14:07
  Is there anything more you would like to add, Kansas, before
• 2:14:10
  we- Just- All right ... big
• 2:14:11
  Kansas Carradine: gratitude.
• 2:14:11
  I think we kept adding and adding, so- We did
• 2:14:14
  we'll talk again.
• 2:14:15
  Rupert Isaacson: All right.
• 2:14:16
  Okay, till the next time.
• 2:14:17
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• 2:14:21
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• 2:14:26
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• 2:14:30
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• 2:14:32
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• 2:14:35
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• 2:14:38
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• 2:15:01
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• 2:15:22
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• 2:15:26
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• 2:15:29
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• 2:15:31
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