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Of Mars and Marshes · The Partial Historians

• Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians. We explore all the details of ancient Rome, everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad Dr G 0:33 And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad Dr G 1:02 And I am Dr. G. Dr Rad 1:05 Dr. G. We are finally post Gallic sack in ancient Roman history. We're dealing with the aftermath. We're in the 380s BCE, and before we get into the year that was 387 BCE, which is our topic for today. Shall we recap slightly on what happened in 388 BCE? Dr G 1:28 Well, now, if I consider my sources carefully, nothing happened because I didn't have any material. Dr Rad 1:34 Such an uneventful year. Yeah, look, 388 wasn't exactly brimming with huge events for me, either, but it's still very much the Camillus show over here in Livy Land. He had some triumphs, and Rome also was reacting to the fact that the people around them in Central Italy are trying to take advantage of their momentary weakness, that little slip that was the Gallic invasion by seemingly conducting some campaigns that I think were very much about trying to reinstate themselves as people to fear, not people who are vulnerable, so just being like, hey, I know you thought that in 389 you guys could come for me, but do not be mistaken. The Romans are still fierce. We still got it. Dr G 2:27 Never underestimate Rome and their petty understanding of vengeance. Dr Rad 2:31 Exactly. Yeah, so we had a few fairly low-level campaigns happening in 388 according to my account, and the rest of it, I think was very much about, you know, rebuilding, getting back on top of things, domestic issues. Dr G 2:47 Hm, yeah. What a time to be alive for Rome. So, in the midst of rebuilding, also having to defend their borders from opportunists, but lucky Camillus was around, Dr Rad 2:57 Exactly. And with that being said, Dr. G, I think we are ready to jump into 387 BCE. Dr G 3:31 Wow, 387 BCE. All right. Well, I hate to break it to you, but things are looking a little bit sketchy, even for the names of who might be in magisterial positions for this year. Dr Rad 3:47 Yes, there's a huge amount of names, and yet most of them have question marks. Dr G 3:53 They do, they do. So we have this idea that the Fasti Capitolini is missing for the years of 389 to 381 and yet some of these names that are on the list are so unusual that it has been suggested by some that what we're looking at is maybe the fastie Capitolini entry for a different year entirely. Dr Rad 4:22 Interesting Dr G 4:23 which is 380 Dr Rad 4:25 Oh, that's how confusing things are getting over in this neck of the woods. There seems to be a little bit of a gap between 387 and 380 I wonder, how those years got confused. Don't you worry about numbers, mathematics. What is that? Chronology. Who knows. As we've said, we're very much in the circa era still in the early republic. Everything we say date wise comes with a circa, even if we don't say it. I would say take it with a grain of salt, but I think you need more than a grain for. This, it's like Dr Rad 5:00 Get the shaker Dr G 5:01 Just like put it all on, shake it all over. Dr Rad 5:03 Yeah, all right. Well, tell me, what? Who are the magistrates supposed to be anyway? Dr G 5:08 Well, okay, let me give you a list of names. Dr Rad 5:12 Hit me with it. Dr G 5:15 We apparently have military tribunes with consular power, usual. Yeah, pretty usual. First off, the list is Lucius Papirius Cursor. Now, Cursor is an unusual cognomen that we don't really come across very often. It means runner, so I assume a man with shapely calves, if nothing else. Dr Rad 5:39 I'm very happy to see him, the Papirius, though we have definitely seen before. Dr G 5:43 We have, yes, they have been around. It is a patrician family, no surprises there. We also have Gnaeus Sergius Fidenas Coxo. Dr Rad 5:54 Yeah, that is such a weird name, and one that I'm going to resist having any fun with whatsoever, Dr. G. Dr G 6:03 Well, what I can say is I spent some time trying to look up Coxo to try and figure out what it might mean Dr Rad 6:08 I bet you did, you dirty little minx! Dr G 6:12 And yet I've turned up almost nothing. So, but it's this guy's final cognomen that is the thing that sort of links up to this idea that maybe we're looking at a Fasti Capitolini entry from much later in the piece, because the name is so unusual and it crops up again. Having said that, when it does crop up in the Fasti for 380 he has already held this position for the third time, and where would he have done it the other two times? Maybe in this dark period, where I don't have the Fasti. I just don't know. Dr Rad 6:49 This is so confusing. Dr G 6:51 Yes. Well, dear listeners, think what you will of Coxo, but a very important name, even if we're not sure where it's going, we then have Lucius Aemilius Mamercinus. Dr Rad 7:06 We've seen that name before, that's for sure. Dr G 7:08 Yeah, a classic. He was previously Military Tribune in 391 and 389 so we've seen him quite recently. Licinius Menenius Lanatas. Dr Rad 7:21 I feel like we've seen that family before. Dr G 7:25 We have, yeah, this guy, no, but other people that he's connected with, definitely, Dr Rad 7:32 exactly, yeah, Dr G 7:33 Lucius Valerius Publicola Dr Rad 7:36 A very recognisable name, thank God. Dr G 7:39 Yes, or patricians, so far, and then we get into our questionables, some of whom I do not have full names for, either. That's how questionable they've become. So, we've got a Lucius Quintius, not sure about any of the other details. Dr Rad 7:55 Yeah Dr G 7:56 A Lucius Cornelius, Dr Rad 7:59 Mmmhmm Dr G 7:59 An Aulus Maelius slash Manlius, and worst of all, the least amount of clues possible, a Fabius. Dr Rad 8:11 Look all very sketchy in the sense that we don't have many details about them, and yet all from very recognisable families, Dr G 8:24 yeah, all possible, for sure. But that's like throwing together a Roman name salad and being like, I think these guys are in charge. Dr Rad 8:31 Exactly. I mean, yeah, it would make sense, because yeah, their families have often been in charge. Sure. Dr G 8:37 Yeah, when in doubt, pick a Cornelii and be like, yeah, I think they were, they were definitely there. Dr Rad 8:43 You can't swing a cat in Rome without hitting a Servilii. Dr G 8:48 Exactly, we also have, in addition to all of these military tribunes with consular power, we do have the name of a tribune of the plebs. Dr Rad 8:57 Oh, nice Dr G 8:59 One, Lucius Sicinius. Dr Rad 9:01 Oh my god, does anybody from outside this family ever enter this office? Dr G 9:07 Well, they are very popular in this century and the previous century, but they are going to disappear soon. Dr Rad 9:14 So, I shouldn't complain. Dr G 9:16 Enjoy them while you can. Dr Rad 9:17 I've sealed their fate! Dr G 9:19 You have. This might be the last time a Sicinius ever turns up. Now we also have a list of interreges: Marcus Manlius Capitolinus, previously consul of 392, Servius Sulpicius Camerinus, the suffect consul of 393 and a military tribune in 391, and Lucius Valerius Potitus, previously consul in 393 and 392, so he served with Capitolinus and a military tribune history, which seems to stretch back as far as 414 Dr Rad 10:01 Wow, so he's getting on, Dr G 10:03 Yeah, interreges indeed. They're gonna have to change the guard soon with that guy. Dr Rad 10:09 Well, I suppose this is kind of the position that might be suited to an elder gentleman, given that you rotate through holding power fairly quickly, as we understand it, Dr G 10:20 Indeed. Dr Rad 10:21 Shift work you know. Dr G 10:22 And well, I guess we'll see if he gets up to anything, because I certainly have no other details apart from his name. The other interesting detail that I have, in terms of people holding positions for this year, and the thing that I'm probably going to focus on the most when I have anything to say, is the duumvir sacris faciendus. Dr Rad 10:43 Sounds fancy, Dr G 10:46 which translates to "the two men for doing the sacred things". Dr Rad 10:52 I love Latin Dr G 10:52 Watch out, I'm about to do something sacred! Are you watching? Are you watching? There's two of us, Dr Rad 10:59 and we're doing the sacred things. Where's Coxo? Yeah, yeah. Dr G 11:05 So, having said that, even though it is the two men for doing the sacred things, I only have the name of one of them, Dr Rad 11:10 Naturally. Why would you have two? Dr G 11:13 Baffling. And that is Titus Quintius Cincinnatus Capitolinus, who should be very familiar to us at this stage, because he was a military tribune with consular power, merely the year before. Dr Rad 11:27 Keeping it in the gang, keeping it in the family. Dr G 11:30 He's back, but now he's like, have you seen my sacred things? And Coxo was like, don't show them! Dr Rad 11:39 Some things, remain private, Dr G 11:41 Please. Dr Rad 11:42 Except for Phallus Thursday, Dr G 11:45 So that is my list of potential characters for this year, and in the wake of a disaster, really a disastrous set of source material that gives me almost absolutely nothing. I'm very keen to learn what might have happened in this year from what Livy can tell us. Dr Rad 12:07 Believe it or not, Dr. G, I can definitely weave a narrative using pretty much everyone you have just named. It's a short one, but they do all come up, and I'm glad to hear that you have some thoughts on the duumvir, because that is where I think your expertise is going to be of most use to me in crafting this account, so in 387 BCE we can't forget that it has only been a fairly short amount of time since the trauma of whatever happened with the goals, this is a long shadow, and so yes, we've put 390 behind us in the sense of we're finally out of that year, but we're probably going to keep referring to the goals for quite some time, reason being Dr. G, even though Livy assured me that the citizens were extremely focused on getting all the rebuilding of Rome done in one year. He tells me that in 387 they are still rebuilding Rome. Dr G 13:12 It's almost like Livy doesn't read his own drafts. Dr Rad 13:15 I wonder if what he means is they got the necessary rebuilding done, like got their homes and stuff back up and running, necessary buildings, that sort of thing, but maybe they are still using this as an opportunity to reinvent Rome a little bit, give it a fresh lick of paint, and therefore they're still at work on the city at this moment in time. Dr G 13:43 Fair enough. The finer details Dr Rad 13:45 I'm giving Livy an out, because otherwise it does make little sense. Dr G 13:52 You're being very kind to Livy at this point, I would say. Dr Rad 13:56 Thank you. Thank you. Now this is where our tribune of the plebs come in. I did hint last episode that we are starting to enter back into the conflict of the orders now that the big foreign problems have seemingly been sorted for some time. Guess what they're going to talk about, Dr. G, is it going to be land allotment in relation to they it is going to be about the land and laws and all of that kind of jazz, so the tribune of the plebs are very interested in picking up where they left off, who knows how long ago, it seems like an age, because we've been so deep in 390 BCE, they want to talk about agrarian laws, land allotment, and that sort of thing, and therefore they want to make sure that as many of the citizens of Rome are going to come to their meeting about this as possible. I imagine this as them being out in the street being like, come on guys, it's going to be awesome, Jello shots, Lady Gaga might stop by. Who knows what's gonna happen. You have to be there, and then we might just, I don't know, casually talk about grain and land and fairness in our society. It'll be fantastic. You have to come- Dr G 15:11 Come and get your free barbecued rat on a stick. Dr Rad 15:15 Exactly, don't wanna miss this one. It'll be epic. Now, this was allegedly inspired not so much by the Veii conquest, I guess they got the message after in 388 the Senate said get your arses out of they or we'll kill you, that maybe they wasn't the best topic to bring up. I mean, God knows that might inspire yet another six month long speech from Camillus, and nobody wants that. We can't handle that right now. No, but it is inspired by some of Camillus' latest victories. So, depending on whose account you're reading, in around 389 or 390 maybe, who knows, Camillus had some sort of victory against the Volscians because the Volscians tried to take advantage of Rome's weakness, etc. etc. It seems that there was some land potentially taken, wasn't actually hinted at the time, so we probably should have given the Romans maybe a bit more credit for whatever they had accomplished. But this is what happens when Livy doesn't give me the full picture, Dr. G, I blame him. Dr G 16:21 Fair enough. Dr Rad 16:23 Yeah, so we're talking about the Pomptine district here, in terms of the land. Dr G 16:30 Ah, yes, Dr Rad 16:33 Yeah. Now you're much better than I am. I have no geographic sense, but I believe we're talking about an area that is to the southeast of Rome. Dr G 16:44 Yes, this is a really important piece of land, actually. So, to the south, technically the south west, and directly south. Dr Rad 16:52 Totally the wrong direction. Gotcha, gotcha. Dr G 16:54 No no no no, the south is correct, because it's known in the modern period as the Pontine Marshes. Yes, it is this huge flat area of land. So, when you head south of Rome and a little bit east, you hit the Castelli Romani region, so you have this sort of volcanic hill chain, but as you move west and south, you are in this really flat land, and it's known for being a pretty brutal place, because it is marshland. So, whenever it rains, there's really nowhere for the water to run off. It becomes stagnant. The place stinks. Coastal cities seem to be the way to go in this area, and later on, we're not up to this point yet in Rome's history, but the Via Appia will go through the Pontine Marshes. It's in a nice flat section of land, and the road just cuts straight through it, but we're not at that point yet. There is no formal roadway that we can sort of reproduce with archeological records, but yes, the Pomptine land is both useful because you can use it for farmland, but if the weather conditions aren't in your favour, it just becomes this horrendous place to live, and people complain about the mosquitoes, they complain about the sound of the frogs, all of these things in later literature, mostly Romans who move through the area are just complaining about how terrible it is. It stinks, it's hot, it's disgusting. The insect life is unpleasant, and everybody just wants to move through there as fast as possible. So, is this a place that anybody wants? Dr Rad 18:39 I was gonna say, well, I'm really, really glad that this is the hill, or rather the opposite of a hill, Dr G 18:45 The plain Dr Rad 18:45 That the tribune of the plebs have decided to die on, because this is the area that they're going to be fighting about. Dr G 18:51 This is what we want, and we want it now. I can see the patricians at some point being like, guys, you can have land, this is the land you can have, and the plebeians being really excited for the first five minutes, and then having moved in after a month, being like, you know, what I think we just got conned. Dr Rad 19:08 The long con. Well, this is apparently the first time that the Romans are the undisputed masters of this area. Thank you, Camillus, for this marshy, horrible place. Dr G 19:22 Well, he did spend some time down at Ardea, which is sort of at the top end of this area, so perhaps he had some more success than we realized while he was out that way. Dr Rad 19:32 He is well traveled in the area. This is true. This is true. The tribunes of the plebs are kicking up a stink because they're saying, you know, what's happening, guys, you won't believe this, but the elite have their grubby little paws all over this land. It's more the patricians and the Volscians that are actually causing issues for Rome. The Volscians had just been, you know, raiding the area whenever they could, taking advantage, but the patricians have been ruthless in taking over this area for themselves. They want to conquer it unequivocally, and the tribunes of the plebs are onto it. They see through their performance as usual. They know that it needs to be divided up now fairly, or there'll be nothing left for the common people of Rome. Dr G 20:32 Yes, gotta get in before it becomes unfair and more favourable to the patricians than it already is. Dr Rad 20:38 Yeah, we want as many mosquito bites as everybody else in this place. Thank you very much. We want to be deafened by frogs too. Dr G 20:46 Yeah, exactly. Equality, please, Sicinius, get in there. Dr Rad 20:51 However, the tribunes of the plebs are not particularly successful in their quest for this land, and that's largely because the plebeians are far too busy living their Bob the Build life at the moment to be hanging around in the forum talking about political issues. It's also very costly, as well as time and labour intensive, to be, you know, rebuilding their entire city from the ground up, so they really just don't have time to entertain these larger political issues, and they don't want to have to obviously build more there. They're just like focusing on Rome. Dr G 21:35 Like, guys, I'm tired from rebuilding my own house, and while I appreciate conceptually that I don't want to miss out on this extra land, I really just can't face building another house right now. Dr Rad 21:47 Exactly, this place looks like it needs a lot of work. I have not got the energy. Dr G 21:54 A fixer upper, you say? Well, isn't the whole place a fixer upper right now? Dr Rad 21:58 Precisely, so it doesn't really go anywhere now, as usual, Dr. G, I have to flag conflict of the orders, talking about land issues. How much of this is a legacy of late Republican issues? It is always very hard to tell. It's not to say that there wouldn't have been some disputes as Rome was taking in more territory and trying to occupy more occupy more places, which does happen with more frequency in this century than perhaps in some of the other centuries we've talked about. However, we have to assume that there is at least a little bit of influence coming through from the issues over land that come from closer to Livy's own time and him living in a post-Gracchan world. Dr G 22:53 Yes, yes, yeah, it is very tricky to know at this point, and presumably as Rome expands, it's continuously having to face this idea of how do we maintain our control over these areas of influence that extend beyond the city itself. Yes, so the general gist of the conversation seems reasonable enough now, whether that is tied in particularly to the concerns of the elite plebeian class and the everyday working Roman in the street that's harder to know. Dr Rad 23:27 Exactly. Now, interestingly, Livy does mention the trauma that the Romans are still living with, although he doesn't obviously use that term. He paints a picture of the Romans being very on edge, still, you know, a few years after their encounter with the Gauls, and that this has led to them becoming exceptionally religious, very much into their religion at this moment in time, as we've seen, piety is big, but also very superstitious, so they really want to make sure they're doing everything by the book, and it's not just the plebeians that are affected by this, so sometimes we see Livy making comments about, you know, the plebeians kind of being, I guess, a bit thick or a bit easy to trick in terms of these sorts of matters, and being a bit more hysterical, I suppose, than the people at the top tend to be, they tend to be a bit more cynical and savvy sometimes, sometimes depends how it's all sort of painted, but in this case, it's everybody, the leaders, the average person on the street, they're all feeling this way, and it's kind of because of this that they decide, you know what, new auspices, new auspices sound great. So, let's have an interregnum. Dr G 24:47 Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah, so usually the interregnum is a situation where we're like we're going to establish new magistrates in roles, uh. I suppose that would require, obviously, consultation with the gods as well. I hadn't really ever thought about it that way, but it's obvious that it would have to be connected. You have to look for the signs to decide whether it's the right time to hold an election, whether the space is going to be the right space to do it in. All of this sort of stuff needs to be checked and confirmed before you could go ahead with an electoral process. Interesting. Dr Rad 25:26 Yes, and so the guys that you mentioned, they hold the interregnum, and it is the very experienced we have to assume Lucius Valerius Potitius that ends up organising the elections for the next set of military tribunes with consular power, and as you, you've already listed those names, so I'm not going to list them again, and they take up their positions, obviously, once the interregnum is over, so we don't have a lot of detail about what this potentially elderly gentleman got up to, apart from arranging elections, and this is where the Temple of Mars comes into play, so we've got our new military tribunes. Things are hopefully looking up, but we're also thinking about the gods in other ways. A temple of Mars had been vowed during the war with the Gauls in 390 circa, and so this has to obviously be fulfilled. Romans have to keep their promises in order to stay on the good side of the gods, and it is dedicated in this year by our duumvir, Titus Quinctius. That's potentially why his name is recorded and not his pal. Dr G 26:39 Okay. Dr Rad 26:40 Yeah, now he may have been a duumvir connected with being in charge of the Sibylline books. We have come across duumvirs who have this task before. Basically, the Sibylline books are a collection of these sorts of oracles that the Romans tend to turn to when they're in times of distress, and they feel like they need some guidance, need to figure out what is going on with the bigger picture, and this is where we've had some dual vis being mentioned in connection with him before, maybe that this is what we're referring to. It's a little difficult to figure out exactly what his role is, as you highlighted, the title is vague at best, but- Dr G 27:21 Having said that, that does seem to be like their chief purpose. Sure, so one of the things that we know about the Duumvirs Sacris Faciendis is that they are responsible for the consultation of the Sibylline books. They're not allowed to just consult them willy nilly Dr Rad 27:39 No, they're not just in there, flicking through on a Sunday afternoon. Dr G 27:43 No, it's not their job to just sort of read those books, of which we've only got three, because you know some things happened back in the Regal period that we can't take back now. But this group of two men can be called upon at any time by the Senate to consult the books, so it seems like they largely spend their time maybe faffing about doing whatever they do alternatively in their lives, so things like holding the position of military tribune with consular power and not being called upon to look at the Sibylline books, but every so often somebody's like, guys, it's bad. I really, I really just need to know what the Greeks have to say about this in some kind of quirky riddle. Could you please go to those books? Dr Rad 28:31 We're in trouble, guys. It's time for a puzzle. Dr G 28:34 Yeah, exactly. And even though we don't hear about them very often, they seem to be considered the third most important of the priesthoods in Rome at this point in time. Dr Rad 28:45 Wow, okay. Dr G 28:46 So we've got the pontifices at the top of the chain, you get to hear from them a reasonable amount, and then we've got the augurs, and so whenever you're taking the auspices, those are the guys that do that. Dr Rad 28:56 Yeah. Dr G 28:56 And then after them, it's this two men for the sacred things, doing of the sacred stuff, so a fascinating kind of concept. And my first question that I wrote in my notes was, so what happened in 387 which, Livy, you seem to have answered somewhat. Dr Rad 29:18 A temple, that's what happened, I guess I would like to know if you know anything additionally about this Temple of Mars, because one thing that I often overlook, as someone who doesn't necessarily think of things, I suppose religion first, you may say, is that apparently, particularly at this moment in time, a temple of Mars would not have been allowed inside the pomerium of the city because of his associations with war, which is not something I would have automatically thought of, although it makes sense, because, of course, look at the location of the Campus Martius. Dr G 29:59 Indeed. Now I don't necessarily have a good answer to that, because in all of my readings, because my only clue was that we had a duumvir of the sacred doings and things, it never mentioned, I had no mention of what he was up to. Dr Rad 30:16 Fair enough, Dr G 30:17 And, and thus no way of really intuiting that it was going to be related to a temple of Mars, which is interesting in itself, because it sounds like by inference maybe what is happening here, this is speculative, is that the consultation of the Sibylline books may have been the thing that permitted the shift of the location to be like, no, we can have that particular temple inside the pomerium. Dr Rad 30:46 No, no, I don't think it is inside the pomerium. That's the thing. Dr G 30:49 Interesting. Dr Rad 30:50 Yeah, so apparently at this moment in time there was probably a temple of Mars in the Campus Martius area. Makes sense. Dr G 31:00 Okay Dr Rad 31:00 makes sense. Dr G 31:01 Which is outside the pomerium, outside that's the place to be. Dr Rad 31:04 Yes, this second one also would have been outside of the pomerium, because it wouldn't have been appropriate to have it inside the pomerium, and probably along the Appian Way somewhere I'm given the position of in the district known as the Ad Martis, which is close to the Porta San Sebastianio, near like in the Aurelian, near the Aurelian walls, or something like that. Dr G 31:34 Okay, Dr Rad 31:34 yeah, Dr G 31:35 That's really interesting. Obviously, those things don't exist yet. The Appian Way doesn't really exist in the way that we understand it, there might be the vestigial sort of proto-Appian way, Dr Rad 31:44 Yes, Dr G 31:45 That exists at this point, but that's sort of if we're thinking about where the Aurelian walls end up, that's quite far away from anything that we're dealing with in terms of the cityscape itself in the fourth century... Dr Rad 31:58 Exactly, that's why I was kind of interested, because of the say, I wouldn't have automatically been like, oh, of course, it has to be outside of the pomerium. I've got to remember things like that, and I don't Dr G 32:08 Really interesting, so of all of the things that seem to be connected with this priestly group, it's this idea that first of all they're unusual in the fact that they conduct their rituals with their head uncovered. Dr Rad 32:24 Oh, Dr G 32:24 which is considered to be in the Greek style. Dr Rad 32:27 Okay, Dr G 32:28 so which makes sense, because the Sibylline books are - they're in Greek. Dr Rad 32:32 Sure. Dr G 32:33 And then their job is to interpret passages from those books for others to make a decision about, so they don't make the decision themselves, they're just like, this is what the book is saying, this is what we interpret that to mean, and then everybody else is like, oh, okay, so these are things like remedies to help solve difficult situations, like what would the remedy be it also includes things like dark foretellings, so what's going to happen in the future, things that might involve divine wrath or menace. It seems all pretty negative, and the idea that might relate to a temple in any capacity would be things like a vague instruction for some kind of action, or the idea of the restoration of the pax deorum. Dr Rad 33:31 Yes, and I guess it would make sense that Mars might be a deity you're thinking about as you are starving to death on a hill, watching your city being invaded by Gauls. Dr G 33:45 Yes, and I suppose if you've promised a temple to a god, I mean the best thing that you can do is build that temple, because otherwise the pax deorum, it's bust, it's all over. Dr Rad 33:55 It is, I think. The interesting thing was, and again, I really should, I always think I should go back and look at that, and then my mind is like a sieve, and so I forget until I'm actually talking to you again that I meant to check that I don't recall, though any mention of such a vow being made, so I think this is something that obviously is supposed to have happened, but it wasn't necessarily part of Livy's narrative, I mean he had so much else to talk about, I guess it just slipped his mind. Dr G 34:24 Well, that's what happens when you focus too much on one white guy. Dr Rad 34:27 I am, I feel fairly certain, because we spent so long talking about 390 though, that there was no specific mention of anyone vowing a Temple of Mars. It might have just been something that was talked about. Now, because we're talking about the dedication, presumably this is a building that was constructed during this rebuilding phase. I'm just, I'm, as you say, I'm having to infer a lot here of stuff that Livy is not explicitly saying, but it would kind of make sense if that's what's been happening. Dr G 34:58 All right, the other little tidbit that I have on these duumvirs is that we get the suggestion that their consultations of the books do lead to the introduction of foreign cults, which I'm not sure that we should classify Mars as at this point. Dr Rad 35:16 Interesting Dr G 35:17 But they do suggest that the Duumvirs are involved in bringing across gods like Apollo, Asclepius, the Magna Mater, and a couple of others as well. So, if for whatever reason in this period of Rome's history they don't understand Mars as being particularly theirs, this might be the time where they change their minds about that. Dr Rad 35:44 Right? Okay, interesting. Dr G 35:47 This is going to be something I will need to look up, because you've piqued my curiosity now, and I'll make a note for myself, because I'm like, what's going on with Mars? Dr Rad 35:57 Yeah, no, by all means, we can definitely return to Mars another day. Dr G 36:02 Oh, you say that, but I'm no Elon Musk. Dr Rad 36:06 Now, the final detail I have for 387 BCE is that the new citizens that we talked about in 388 because apparently there were some defectors during all the hoo-ha of the past few years, were formed into four new tribes, which kind of makes me feel like there must have been a fairly substantial group of them that we're talking about here. Dr G 36:31 Yeah, four new tribes, that's a lot of new tribes. Dr Rad 36:34 Yeah, allegedly bringing our total of tribes to 25 at this moment in time. They were called the Stellatina, the Tromentina, the Sabatina, and the Arniensis. Dr G 36:47 Well, that rolls off the tongue. Dr Rad 36:48 I know, I know. Now, tribes, just in case people have forgotten, because I think it's been a long time since we talked about them in any way, they are voting districts, so this would have been necessary, so that they could partake in the process, and so the Romans could reach a verdict for their magistrates. Dr G 37:15 Do we have any sense where these tribes are located? Dr Rad 37:18 I don't actually have any detail on that point, Dr G 37:22 All of these new citizens, we got to plonk them somewhere, make some new bureaucracy. Well, get them into some tribes. Dr Rad 37:29 We heard in 388 that they received land, and I did question at the time, where is this land supposedly coming from? After all, there's been such fights about giving away land. What are we talking about exactly, especially since some of these people were supposedly from Veii. So are they getting to live in Veii without the threat of death? Dr G 37:56 I'm pretty sure they've been allocated a little patch in the Pontine Marshes. Please. Dr Rad 38:01 We know you've got this gorgeous city in Veii, where you used to live, and you were from there, and so you probably just want to go back there, but be citizen from Rome. But no, we've got something better in mind. We'd like you to go to this mosquito-ridden marshland. Enjoy! Dr G 38:16 Boy, do we have a treat for you? Welcome to Roman citizenship. Dr Rad 38:19 Yeah, and that is really all I have for 387 although I will foreshadow that a lot of this stuff is going to come up again in 386 BC. Dr G 38:31 Okay, well, of the things that I have for this year, I certainly don't have anything related to Rome. What I do have, Dr Rad 38:39 Why would you? Dr G 38:40 Why would I. So, Diodorus Sticulus is my main source at the moment. Lord, love him. He gets most of the names of the magistrates for this year wrong, as far as we can tell. Dr Rad 38:52 Well, to be fair, who gets them right? Dr G 38:55 Well, and also we don't know what the names really are Dr Rad 38:57 Exactly Dr G 38:58 So, how can we tell if he's really wrong? Maybe he's the one that's right, so he gives us the name of six guys, some of them match up to our other lists, most of them don't, but then he does go on to tell us a little bit about what's going on with Carthage at this point in time. Dr Rad 39:14 Okay, foreshadowing, foreshadowing Dr G 39:17 Yeah, we need to know what's going on with the Carthaginians at some point, and what we hear from Diodorus is that the Carthaginians invade Italy at this point. Dr Rad 39:27 What? Dr G 39:28 They already have a foothold in the south of the Italian peninsula, and the Carthaginians' main bugbear at the moment is nothing to do with Rome, because Rome is too small and insignificant, but is a conflict that they've got with the tyrant of Syracuse. Dr Rad 39:46 Ah, well, this all makes sense now. Okay. Dr G 39:48 Yes, it's the Sicilians versus the Carthaginians, that's what's going on around here, and the thing that the Carthaginians are interested in doing is restoring their influence in southern Italy after Dionysius, the tyrant of Syracuse, has swept through and been horrible to everybody down that way, so they go into Calabria, they restore a bunch of people to the city of Hipponium, and that allows them to sort of feel like they're securing their influence there again. Now, the trouble for the Carthaginians is that that's kind of like the only good thing that happens for them in this year, because almost immediately back at home a plague breaks out. Dr Rad 40:36 Ahh those plagues. Dr G 40:38 Yeah, it's bad, so many of them die that their neighbors, the Libyans, decide that it's time to get out from under the influence of the Carthaginians, and also at the same time the Sardinians, so who are also apparently under the influence of Carthage at this point in time, decide it's a great idea to revolt. They're like, this is our chance. Carthage is sick. They've been struck down. Nobody can get on boats, and it's like, we can be free. And so the Libyans of North Africa and the Sardinians are all like, all right, Carthage, you're done here, it's all over. And to make things even worse, for the people who managed to survive the plague in Carthage, there then seems to be a supernatural disaster... Dr Rad 41:31 A supernatural disaster? Dr G 41:34 I know, supernatural disaster, the Carthaginians start to hallucinate in the sense that they wake up, they've presumably recovered from the plague, but maybe this is a symptom of the plague. I don't know. They wake up from whatever illness that they've had, they look around and they see only enemies, they do not recognise their neighbors for being fellow citizens of Carthage. Dr Rad 42:02 Okay... Dr G 42:04 It's bad. A lot of people die as Carthaginians fight each other in the street, not realising that they're fighting their own people. Dr Rad 42:13 That sounds like a fever. Dr G 42:17 Yes, they have gone mad with whatever the plague has given them, and they cannot tell friend from foe. Dr Rad 42:23 My goodness, how apocalyptic. Dr G 42:26 Yeah, it does seem pretty bad. And it is only after a certain amount of death and destruction within inside Carthage that they are able to put together the appropriate sacrifices to the gods in order to correct that situation. Dr Rad 42:47 Got on the bad side of the gods, did they? Got behind on their sacrifices. Did they try to take a sick day? Did they? Dr G 42:56 It's not just the Romans who have issues maintaining the pax deorum. It is Carthage as well, and in like what feels like almost like a grand tradition of Livy writing about the Romans, Diodorus tells us that as soon as the Carthaginians fix up this situation, they're able to swiftly subdue the Libyans, swiftly subdue the Sardinians, and they're back on their feet, and everything's good to go again. I was like, what a whirlwind year of horror for Carthage. Dr Rad 43:25 The weird thing is, though, how much you could take the word Carthage out of that account that you just gave me, put Rome in there, and it sounds almost exactly the same as the kind of stuff that the Romans go through, where it's like you're a local power as soon as you're down in your luck, all the people you've kind of just been keeping in place out of sheer terror decide that they're going to revolt against you because secretly they hate you. And then we've got this illness and the relationship with the gods, it all sounds very familiar. Dr G 44:00 Are you trying to suggest that historiography has really clear patterns about this period of time? Dr Rad 44:07 I would never. Dr G 44:10 I'm glad, because this is clearly an original story for Carthage. Dr Rad 44:15 I mean, in a way, though, I guess it highlights something that you and I have been talking about a little bit more of late, which is, we are obviously telling the history of Rome. We tell things from their point of view a lot of the time, but realistically it is probably more accurate to really think about this area as being all part of a Mediterranean culture, where there's a lot of similarities, there's a lot of cultural connections, etc. etc. They're perhaps not quite as distinct, particularly I think in this early time period as we might like to believe. Dr G 44:52 And I think one of the things that is quite interesting about this period is that we're seeing Rome not at its zenith at all, but we're also, not seeing other cultures really hitting their stride either, like the Greeks are struggling to maintain their control over the Aegean. Sicily is like got a connection with Greece, but it's also trying to strike out and do its own thing. Carthage is known for being a maritime power, but it is struggling to keep its foothold in every area that it has enjoyed influence in the past, so everybody's trying, but not necessarily always succeeding, and I think this is really fascinating, because we're seeing what appears to be a sort of Mediterranean-wide competition, whether, whether knowingly or not, but of people jostling for power and gaining or losing in sort of equal measures over the course of like a decade or so. Dr Rad 45:51 And I feel like there is a lesson to be learned here for us all, Dr. G, which is that even places that are destined to be mighty powers had a time where they were tiny and small and failed a lot, but they hang in there, Dr. G. We should all hang in there like Rome and Carthage, and look at the greatness that will lie ahead. Dr G 46:15 Exactly, have a growth mindset, guys. Dr Rad 46:17 Yeah, all right, Dr. G. Well, I think that's probably it for 387 BCE, which means it is time for the Partial Pick. All right, Dr. G, please tell me how the Partial Pick works. Dr G 46:34 Well, we just tell Rome what they scored, that's basically how that works. So, there are 50 golden eagles up for grabs, and there are five categories, so they can score a maximum of 10 in each category. We'll see how they go. Dr Rad 46:51 All right, Dr. G, what is our first category, please? Dr G 46:54 First category is military clout. Dr Rad 46:59 I don't feel like we can really give them many points for this year. There is not a lot going on in ancient Rome. They're on edge. Dr G 47:10 Yeah, I don't remember any military action being touched on whatsoever. Dr Rad 47:15 No, no, I'm sorry, Rome, that is a zero. Dr G 47:20 Well, diplomacy, Dr Rad 47:22 not really, that even though it's a peacefulish year, it's not because of diplomacy on Rome's part. Dr G 47:32 All right, zero there. Expansion? Dr Rad 47:35 Okay? Now this is questionable, because technically, whatever territory we're talking about here. The expansion happened previously, so I don't know if we can give them points for that. However, I don't know that we gave them points earlier for it either. Dr G 47:49 Yeah, we, we didn't know about it because Livy didn't mention it until now, so maybe they get some retro-rejected points for that. Dr Rad 47:58 Look, we may have to, because otherwise I think they're gonna score pretty badly for this year, so should we give them.. I don't know, it doesn't sound great like a disease-ridden marsh area. Dr G 48:09 Yeah, but it's huge. I mean, so much land. Dr Rad 48:12 I know, I know, I know it's got potential, and I know eventually it will be drained, but at the moment it is not. Dr G 48:20 It takes a long time for them to make it a really workable space. Er two? Dr Rad 48:25 Yeah, I think maybe a two, yeah. Dr G 48:28 All right, that leads us into our fourth category of virtus. Dr Rad 48:32 Oh my god, depressingly, no. Oh my God, what are the Romans doing? Jesus. Dr G 48:38 Not one person took off their shirt, and there was only the bare mention of a man with good calves. Dr Rad 48:42 I know, I know, I mean, seriously, Rome's got to pick up his game. Dr G 48:47 Well, maybe it's the last category where they'll get to shine. It's the citizen score. Dr Rad 48:54 All right, now there's definitely some things to discuss here. However, I'm not sure it's going to be in Rome's favour, there still seems to be some rebuilding, and the plebeians seem to be having a bad time of it, in that they're tired. It's very expensive, and I don't think they'd save for this, because how do you save for an invasion you don't know is coming? That part doesn't sound great. On the other hand, at least they are getting on and doing it, seemingly accomplishing some things, you know. It seems like they're in sync with the patricians to a certain extent about the need for good relationship with the gods. I don't know, I don't know... Dr G 49:33 Four new tribes have been created. Dr Rad 49:35 Yeah, I thought, I don't know how highly I rate that. I mean, oh, so you have a voting district, good for you. Dr G 49:41 Well that's better than not having a voting district, I feel. Dr Rad 49:44 Yeah, like it is, but like, is it really that revolutionary? I don't know. Dr G 49:49 Look, I mean, it's.. it's not the best thing that could happen to a body of citizens, but it's certainly not the worst. Dr Rad 49:56 This is true. This is true. I feel like I don't know, maybe a five. About as high as I would like to go for this one. I mean, they're not listening to the tribune of the plebs, and the tribune of the plebs, as usual, whilst being painted as annoying, are kind of actually truly doing their jobs and looking out for the interest of everyone who's not a patrician. Dr G 50:18 All right, well, I mean, I think five is maybe higher than what I would offer. Dr Rad 50:24 I'm happy to go with four. I'm not overly enthused about this year at all. Dr G 50:28 I think I think a four is appropriate. All right, we don't get a lot of detail of the citizens being particularly happy with any of the things that happen, and in fact, they just are like, it's a lot of work, guys. I just don't know if I can do politics right now. Dr Rad 50:39 Precisely, if they're feeling that exhausted by the rebuilding process, I think that's a bad sign. Dr G 50:46 Well, it's not going to war, though, so that's good news. Dr Rad 50:50 This is true. No warfare for 387 as far as we can tell, which means, Dr. G, that the Romans have scored six golden eagles out of 50, and to be honest, it's a pity six. Dr G 51:05 Yeah, we were being pretty generous, I think. Well, Rome, you're gonna have to pick up your socks and start expanding rapidly. Dr Rad 51:11 I know the only good thing is I know that there will be a lot of that on the horizon for us this century. Dr G 51:18 Just you wait. Well, it has been a pleasure to chat about the year that was 387 BCE. Dr Rad 51:26 Ditto, Dr. G. Dr G 51:39 Thanks for listening. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can find us on Patreon and Ko-Fi. We've also published two books on ancient Roman history. 'Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome' examines the different literary accounts of the earliest rulers recorded in Roman history. 'Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire' is full of the sorts of stories the Romans wished you didn't know about them, and is guaranteed to make for interesting conversation. Thank you to all our Patreon supporters. We are truly humbled by your patronage. Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai